Dev Diary Feedback: Rise of Isengard: Burglar Developer Diary

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Originally Posted by Dyslex

But it's still going to scare the #### out of everyone when they get riddled and have no idea where to run/how to respond.

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To be honest, when I saw the riddle from stealth thing, I immediately thought of the WoW rogue.(which has always been able to mez from stealth, its a signature move of theirs.) I'm sure it will be used here the same as it is there in PvP, to see if you can get the target to waste a pot to get out of it [or WoW's equivalent of a pot, a trinket use] and then make them pay if they did waste it on that.(along with just mezzing everything you stealth by but have no intention of fighting, just being a punk.) Lotro's burgs are a lot smarter bunch than wow's rogues though, so it is entirely possible that you could see the raid vs raid burg healer manipulation tactic that Dyslex described above.

Riddle from stealth, as fun as it might be in PvE, really has no place at all in PvMP.

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Originally Posted by Dyslex

But it's still going to scare the #### out of everyone when they get riddled and have no idea where to run/how to respond.

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This is good. ;)

It may even be a cheeky reminder that the burg is around, but not coming after you, as a more serious burg would just attack.

As a mainly creep player, i have a sense of foreboding about the upcoming burg changes.

An already powerful, arguably OP class, will be even stronger, even harder to kill, and harder to escape from than before.

Also, the Ettens needed less, not more CC, IMO.

These changes are great if you are mainly a burg player.

But i think that this will come at the cost of creep players' exasperation.

To be honest, I'm an annoying nag. I really love ganking and there are a lot of creep players I don't like. It's gonna be a damn pleasure to riddle this guys again and again with no opportunity to defend themselves.

Thanks, Turbine, for this free ticket to grief play!

Im kinda upset they didn't make it easier for the burglars that trait different capstones. For Instance im a Feint Attack Burglar allll the way. but sometimes i need to go trait gambler for a instance and i have to pull out a whole new dagger just to have it on a 15 sec cd. i wish that we could have 1 legacy to reduce the 3 capstones CD (heck make it a major i don't mind)

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Originally Posted by Disperate

As a mainly creep player, i have a sense of foreboding about the upcoming burg changes.

An already powerful, arguably OP class, will be even stronger, even harder to kill, and harder to escape from than before.

Also, the Ettens needed less, not more CC, IMO.

These changes are great if you are mainly a burg player.

But i think that this will come at the cost of creep players' exasperation.

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^ This.

With my hobbit burg- no wargie will have a chance.
Imagine now: Traited DiTE+new AoE Twist+Riddle working on everything= more dead wargs.

Now, not that this is necessarily a BAD thing- as long as I don't play my warg ;) There are a few I wouldn't mind ganking.

I dunno- I don't think these changes are quite for the better. I don't know what I'd do instead: so since they have the ideas, they win.

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Originally Posted by addict82

Right, right (must by why they don't need proper functioning armor set bonuses and whatnot)...

...except TG/MM.

That other part too.... ya know, where they don't have a unique/specialized/exclusive role at all.

*CC-wise/stealthriddle; I can already smell the bugs, and hear them crunching under my feet.

Despite Riddle from stealth sounding amazing (yes, sounding amazing... don't play dumb*), I hardly see how a Burglar's CC (or debuffs... or DPS...) would be preferred over an LM's.

Thing is, you didn't just mess up by not making Burgs "the" debuff (as was their obvious intention) or CC class, you messed up by making LMs BOTH "the" debuff and CC class.

"5/6 for X instance have tank/heals (add "need cc", "need debuffs", or just "need utility" if you wish) pst" - Burg vs LM

DPS: LMs red-traited slam a Burg from his/her chance at a DPS slot in pretty much everything, because AOE > ST for most (/all) trash pulls. If its for a DPS slot, the Burg loses. I will be very surprised if this gets a single objection.

CC: On top of their mezzing/stunning (which more or less will post-RoI be an even playing field with Burgs) - LM's can root-kite 5 targets indefinitely (it isn't ever required, but the class has the capability, WHILE KEEPING TWO TARGETS PERMA-MEZZED!). /the Burg loses. /Even DPS traited LMs bring their stun immunity, disease (and/or wound) removal, a heal, power sharing, and *AOE* debuffs to the table, which brings us to...

Debuffs: Burglar debuffs are not as good as LM's for running an instance (as in trash, trash, bossling, trash, trash, bossling, trash, trash, boss). LM debuffs are AOE, effect 3 - yellow trait for 8! - targets, can STACK, and can be kept up on said 3-8 mobs 50% (always 100% for Wind Lore) of the time with blue/red traitlines , and 100% of the time with yellow capstone. One trick per mob, or even two, can never compare... 3-target Dust looks like putrid festering troll carcass next to Fire Lore on 8 targets (plus whatever else the LM decides to stack).

Utility/efficiency/fastest/safest runs: LMs non-red still have AOE capability (> than Burgs at least), their pet's DPS, a potential 5+ target Ancient Craft every/every-other pull, stun immunity, disease and potential wound removal, and the ability to heal and share power during FM-immune-Boss fights. Burgs have poison removal where LMs have wound/disease/stun/silence removal. Burgs have nothing where LMs have a heal and a power share during boss fights.

I know that Burgs and LMs aren't "meant" to be compared in such a way, but that is how I view the subject at hand. These are both "support" classes, but are very similar in their roles (sadly), and are both quite different from Captains.

"A bit more CC" doesn't do squat for the class in the longrun.

Burgs were supposed to be debuffers - THE debuffers, and they aren't.
They aren't THE CCers.
They aren't THE DPS class by any stretch of the imagination.

With FMs "given" to Cappies and Guards (they happen sooooo often) the Burg loses their ONLY unique aspect. Throw into the mix that most bosses are immune to FMs...?

What the hell are Burglars. What is or was the "vision" for this class?

Please stop trying to make them the Jack-of-All-Trades... it is quite clear to everyone that that is the Loremaster, without question.

Why didn't you improve FMs, or add FM options/combos when a Burg is in a fellowship regardless of which party member started the FM? SOMETHING? ANYTHING?

You should have given/need to give Burglars something that would make someone in a group think "this would be a breeze with a decent Burg", or "wow, a Burg would make that fight so much easier".

As is, Burgs are the absolute only class that I have yet to find a place/reason to make such a statement (where an LM/other class couldn't have done the same thing).

I'm still waiting.

(I have grouped with some AMAZING Burgs, and am not trying to belittle what good Burg players are capable of. I only wish that Turbine would give you more to be proud of than filling an offline LM's CC slot or snatching the 6th slot in a group [that you didn't start] and a -75% Addle.)

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^ This. Its already hard to prove brg is usefull. But if somebody will tell me we have already lm, it's even hard to argue with that :/

Just giving some thoughts on Improved Riddle. This was clearly inspiredby the class patriarch Bilbo Baggins who, while wearing the One Ring, played the riddle game with Smaug The Golden. Ofcourse while Burglars don't possess a ring of power, I think this is a terrific improvement to the class and ought to provide some interesting new dynamics to solo and group play.

That being said, as far as PvP is concerned this is an extremely bad decision as the potentional forcontinous harrassment and frustration is staggering. This skill is much more detrimental to balance and fairplay than Desperate Flight ever was, and it ought to be disabled from the Ettenmoors. The expansion of Riddle's apllicabilitybis cause enough for complaint. Tho why I or any one else expects better from Turbine is beyond me. Since launch they have made it quite clear what they think of the PvMP community. At best, we are comparable to that deformed brother the Fortellis keep chained in the basement, sedated with old pirate serials when they are not busy throwing leftover food in our face and tormenting us with bad renditions of opera. (ref. The Goonies)
In other words, don't expect this to change. And don't expect the devs to care.

From this and the previous Developer Diary can we assume that there will be no NEW skills from level 65 to level 75 but only improvements to previous ones.
While I do understand that players don't want to be overwhelmed with new powers, as a recent level 64 hunter, I can say that from level 52, the only levels I was ansious about were the three levels that gave me new skills.

Improvements are nice, but new toys are better.

At least in my prespective both as a leve 64 hunter and as a level 54 Rune-Keeper.

Why not give us at least one or two new skills between those 10 levels?

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Originally Posted by Lucanthanas

Why not give us at least one or two new skills between those 10 levels?

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Couse on wrd for example i already have gambits I don't even use. On burg, or especcially on minnie my toolbars are absolutly full. Better to improve than add something new, taht will be useless (Never Surrender for example).

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Originally Posted by Cliford

Couse on wrd for example i already have gambits I don't even use. On burg, or especcially on minnie my toolbars are absolutly full. Better to improve than add something new, taht will be useless (Never Surrender for example).

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While that may be true for some classes, others have plenty of room for extra skills. My hunter has plenty of room for new shinies as has my rune keeper. And even if you don't use some gambits on your warden, doesn't mean that there are too many gambits but just that some of them are mostly useless.

I am disappointed at the lack of a defined role for burglars in PVE. The devs mentioned their vision for the burglar class when they changed the main stat from might to agility. Well, what is the vision for the class? And how does the agility stat better support that vision?

I have yet to read anything more than 'burgs are fine,' despite the fact that burglars are the least played class in the game. If not for their extreme potency in PVP, I think the number of burglars would be very small - limited to filling niche roles in certain raid content.

In contrast, the dev posts on champions very clearly state what the class is supposed to be, and how each trait line supports that vision. Same for captains.

The only clearly defined line for burglars is quiet knife. The role is obvious - single target damage.

Mischief appears to be the cc line, but with limited ae cc, the line seems lackluster at best. And most of the debuffing benefits of mischief can be achieved in a 5qk/2mm build.

I have no idea what role gambler is supposed to play.

At this point, I see the burglar class as a hodgepodge of random skills with little thought or planning. Disappointing

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Originally Posted by Cliford

But if somebody will tell me we have already lm, it's even hard to argue with that :/

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It's easy to argue with that! The two classes do different things. Lore-master debuffs enemies to hit less but burglar can debuff it so you do more damage. Combine the two and you've got a lot of usefulness. LM sends in pet to off-tank, burglar does evasion off-tank.

I never really buy into the idea that there should only be one build/class for each role, that's short sighted. I want lots of overlap so that you have lots of adaptability and variety. The real problem is that there are so many players (and devs) who refuse to see beyond tank/dps/heal that any support class becomes second class, and that they're encouraged to become one of the three main roles (ie, burglars running in quiet knife instead of mischief maker, lore masters giving up mezzing to do more damage, captains relegated to being healbots).

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Originally Posted by Lucanthanas

From this and the previous Developer Diary can we assume that there will be no NEW skills from level 65 to level 75 but only improvements to previous ones.

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Sounds reasonable.

Please note that some other games out there, including some very major ones, do not include lots of new skills all the time. For instance when you level up in WoW your skills do not automatically improve but instead you learn more powerful version of your skills. So you end up with a much smaller set of skills overall compared to LotRO.

Many of my characters (I have all classes) are to full of skills already. My minstrel already can not slot all of them. If I got a new skill for my burglar I do not know where I would put it.

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Originally Posted by Ellda

At this point, I see the burglar class as a hodgepodge of random skills with little thought or planning. Disappointing

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I see burglar as Mischief Maker. That's the thought and design behind it. Burglars are in there messing up the enemy's plans, the fly in the ointment. It seems like a hodgepodge because there's a large bag of tricks. Classes like hunter are simple because the bag of tricks is very small: do damage, occasionally lay traps and remove poison. But burglar is mezzing, debuffing, stunning, starting conjunctions, interrupt, doing damage, etc. Look at the names of the skills, this fits right in with the burglar mind set: counfound, riddle, disable, provoke, trip, addle.

There's definitely planning here. Or there was when it was first designed, though not much love given to the core mischief maker skills though.

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Originally Posted by Lucanthanas

While that may be true for some classes, others have plenty of room for extra skills. My hunter has plenty of room for new shinies as has my rune keeper. And even if you don't use some gambits on your warden, doesn't mean that there are too many gambits but just that some of them are mostly useless.

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Yeah, I'd happily have more skills too. Burgs should have plenty of quickslot room.

I agree that its hard to justify wanting a Burglar as opposed to an LM for most 6 man instances. However, in the rare instances that aren't just an excuse for an aoe-fest (eg: SS), Burglars are as useful as anything else.

That said, we don't really have it that bad. Consider, why would you ever want to take a good Hunter over a good Burglar for a 6 man instance? You wouldn't.

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The only thing that frustrates me about this update is that it appears as though QK is still going to be just as powerful versus MM/TG as it is now: there's still not enough reason to trait any other way (in group PvE at least) because the other trait lines weren't given enough stuff.

This update is definitely focused in the right direction though with the new MM line bonuses, an aoe stun, and the capstones outside of the crit chain. If Rask is able to put a bit more time to the class at some point, I'm sure he could come up with a solid overhaul.

After some of the nonsense in our previous update, I had thought the class was headed for a future of consistently miserable updates.

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I can only imagine they didn't really consider how these changes will effect PvP. The ability to Riddle anything from stealth is an ideal way to ensure people's frustration is maximized. Oh well, at least they're not going back to no diminishing returns on CC... I'm actually surprised anyone is still playing in the moors (aka: ZvZ*).

* Zerg vs Zerg

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Originally Posted by Evendale

I agree that its hard to justify wanting a Burglar as opposed to an LM for most 6 man instances. However, in the rare instances that aren't just an excuse for an aoe-fest (eg: SS), Burglars are as useful as anything else.

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They are useful, yes. But "as useful", I dunno.

6 slots for a group (current-game), GB, SS, LT, whatever;

1: Guardian or Warden (tank) - someone to hold aggro.

2: Minstrel or RK (healer) - someone to keep aggro-holder+everyone else alive.

3: Champ (DPS) - ideal AOE DPS for trash, satisfactory/ideal (depends on the Champ) ST DPS for sigs/elites/bosslings/bosses, ideal aggro management.

4: Hunter (ranged DPS) - ideal ST DPS for trash, ideal ST DPS for sigs/elites/bosslings/bosses, typically takes role of "healer-savior", has traps for backup CC, ideal aggro management.

5: Captain (Buffs/off-Heals/support) - everyone wants them, the reasons are obvious.

^That is what I find most 6 man groups to aim for, so a typical group would consist of those 5 classes.

And now we are left with a vacant slot number 6.

So, what to take, what to take?


Burg (utility/support) - satisfactory ST DPS for trash, FMs (+morale/+power/extra DPS) on trash, ideal ST DPS for bosses (when in position), CC, (only) 1 trick per enemy, poison removal, no FM's (no morale, no power, no extra DPS) on bosses.

LM (utility/support) - satisfactory ST/AOE DPS for trash (ideal AOE if MoNF) , satisfactory ST DPS for bosses (ideal if MoNF), CC (less so if MoNF), (self-)stackable debuffs, disease removal, wound removal, stun removal/immunity, silence removal, a pet with whatever benefits the current pet offers (Shatter Arms, Nobility, Distraction, etc.), a heal every 20 or 30 seconds (including during FM immune boss fights), a power share+method to refill LMs power indefinitely (including during FM immune boss fights), and a rez.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.....


LMs in addition to having the "AOE-fest" advantage (to their DPS *AND* their debuffs), also provide MUCHHHH more group utility.

So, I have concluded LM > Burg for usefulness in slot number 6, with tank/heals/aoedeepz/stdeepz/buffs already factored in.

Perhaps he could fit in one of the other slots?

1: (tank) Burg in this slot can't do it.

2: (heals) Burg in this slot can't do it.

3: (AOE DPS) Burg in this slot will slow you down.

4: (ST DPS) Burg could actually take this one! Would provide less DPS than a Hunter though, and lacks the 40m range and aggro management.

5: (Buffs/off-heals/utility) Burg will slow you down/make it more difficult than it needs to be in this slot.

/Nope.

I really have a difficult time finding a place for a Burg.

In a raid, absolutely! But in a 6-man? Mehhh.

this update is ridiculous, everyone know the real problems with burglars lies with practical joke and burgle.

please make practical joke work 100% of the time and a shorter cooldown.

and i want to burgle something 100% of the time. and make it work on beasts as well...

:P

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Originally Posted by addict82

4: Hunter (ranged DPS) - ideal ST DPS for trash, ideal ST DPS for sigs/elites/bosslings/bosses, typically takes role of "healer-savior", has traps for backup CC, ideal aggro management.

4: (ST DPS) Burg could actually take this one! Would provide less DPS than a Hunter though, and lacks the 40m range and aggro management.

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I do agree with most of what you said but not this quoted part.

A good Burglar should not only do roughly equivalent dps to a Hunter, but also increase the groups damage (drastically in boss fights), and has better utility (CC/stuns/cjs & interrupts/disable). Basically, Burglars should contribute more damage than Hunters and are much more useful when things get tough. A good tank and/or champ means a "healer-saver" is totally unnecessary.

That said, people just take what they can get for most groups. Most people don't care that much. Ideally it'd be nice to bring 3-4 champs along on most instances to make them go fast but there aren't that many good champs around.

Sorry for getting this a bit off topic.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

I see burglar as Mischief Maker. That's the thought and design behind it. Burglars are in there messing up the enemy's plans, the fly in the ointment. It seems like a hodgepodge because there's a large bag of tricks. Classes like hunter are simple because the bag of tricks is very small: do damage, occasionally lay traps and remove poison. But burglar is mezzing, debuffing, stunning, starting conjunctions, interrupt, doing damage, etc. Look at the names of the skills, this fits right in with the burglar mind set: counfound, riddle, disable, provoke, trip, addle.

There's definitely planning here. Or there was when it was first designed, though not much love given to the core mischief maker skills though.

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Perhaps burglars were well thought out in the beginning, but, imo, the class has fallen behind in terms of their trait line focuses. For instance, I can read the champion ROI diary and know exactly what the intended role for each of the three trait lines. One stance is for tanking; another for full aoe dps; and another for dps with better survivability.

Same goes for the hunter update 2. Each trait line fulfills a specific role, and the roles are well-defined.

With the exception of confound, all of the skills you mentioned are available to burgs across all lines.

As if right now, the only line that has an obvious, defined role is quiet knife. And that role is single target damage. This is a great role for big boss fights in raids, and is overpowered in PVP.

But what role does gambler play? Or mischief maker? I have played all three lines, and I know what each line can do. But, I have not read anything to suggest any kind of plan for each of the lines. Gambler and Mischief appear to be patched on, neglected additions to the burglar class.

To be fair, it does look like they are trying to make some improvements to Mischief. However, I never read anything that said 'why' they are making those changes. Maybe the reasons are obvious to others, but not to me. For instance, the debuff cooldown change is nice, but I never found the cooldowns to be a hindrance if I want to debuff multiple mobs.

In other words, I still don't see any compelling reason to trait anything other than quiet knife. It is not a catastrophe, as burglar is still a fun and capable class. But it is disappointing.

I do not at all agree with the change to riddle. I think it is breaks the lore (I don't do PvP so my comments have nothing to do with the moors). If you were going to mess with Riddle why not put your effort into fixing the animation and put it back the way it was before mischief was introduced so that we're not standing around waving our hands in the air!

I do agree with removing the capstone skills from the crit chain. From the day that Moria was introduced I never understood why anyone thought it was a good idea to put them at the end of the crit chain.

The change to surprise strike is long overdue, although it does seem rather arbitrary that it won't work with Improved Feint (yes I know, it was too powerful).

Why no new tricks?? Where is the creativity? Is not 3 or 4 years enough development time to think of even one new trick, or has the well run dry? Many creative ideas have been suggested, yet for reasons known only Turbine they were all ignored. The burglar has become stagnant.

All in all I find the update another in a long list of disappointments. Instead of restoring the uniqueness of the class these changes seem to be more about homogenizing the burglar with other classes. I don't like that. I play a burglar as my main because of its uniqueness. This bothers me more than anything else.

Oh, and by the way. It still doesn't make any sense that we can't toggle mischief in combat.

I find it curious and irritating that the majority of attention in the Dev Tracker today is focused in the Champion feedback thread, while we haven't had any attention at all since the topic was posted. The burg is arguably in more dire straits than the champ ever was, and it is evident that most players posting here aren't happy.

I have a Spider and a Burg. That's it. I don't like making alts and replaying content since I have a decent memory, in much the same way as I go for years before rereading a book. If the burglar class goes down the tubes and continues to be irrelevant in most of the smaller group content, then I can likely say that I will be leaving the game after my 3 1/2 years. I would be really sad that it would come to that, but I'm not going to pay for a subscription when my chosen class has such a hard time becoming involved and is rarely being improved.

Why aren't the devs listening to us? It seems that the majority is concerned with the fact that we have no specific role that allows us to stand out in a group. Why isn't Turbine making the wise decision to let the players become involved in the process or telling us outright how they expect us to compete with other classes that function in group mechanics much better than we do?

The line of communication when it comes to the Burglar has been rather broken for the last couple of years, and the Month of the Burglar is a lame excuse to not balance the class further when many of those playing a level 65 Burg will be laying down at least $30 to support the game's expansion. In short, we deserve better efforts than this, no matter how close the last update was. The quality of the class should be the overarching concern, not that fact that you recently spent time working on it. I know that I'm not the only one who hopes that Turbine will soon realize that the methods they're utilizing aren't working to keep what used to be a very viable class from becoming all but extinct.

I want to hear only two things from devs.

For what i suppose to use wich trait line? Explain me that, becouse I am dump, and see usage only for one:

QK is DPS line.
Gamble is ... line?
MM is ... line?

Second thing. What in mind of devs is role of burg in fellow/raid?

Two simple questions.

Edit: From curiosity i checked dev tracker, page after page. Last dev response about brg i found here. It's from 1 june. It was 2 months ago... I do not belive in any response. :(

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Originally Posted by Cliford

Edit: From curiosity i checked dev tracker, page after page. Last dev response about brg i found here. It's from 1 june. It was 2 months ago... I do not belive in any response. :(

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Lol, that is ironic that one of the extremely few posts we got from a dev actually turned out to be wrong :p.