Transcript: LOTRO Developer Twitter Chat - Thursday February 21,2013

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Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien

Are the Devs really going with a fixed tree?

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Originally Posted by Loreineth

If you *really* love diverse talent trees, go play Rift, with their soul system. Please don't make LOTRO a copy of WoW's old talents. I like playing something different than what I've played the last ten years.

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Quoting a bit out of order...

The only thing we know from the dev quote is that they're going to do talent trees. Now, it's fair to say that there are different kinds of trees with potential for flexibility from outlying systems, though they still have the same general limitations that make them "trees." That said, I'm going to try Rift with my MMO buddy this year, in anticipation of the class changes. Thing is, though I'll never be a fan of talent trees in general, I'm much more forgiving when a game is built on them from the beginning; going from a highly flexible trait system in LotRO to a tree system is a step down. And since that's a case--when trees are so common in other games, I certainly shouldn't limit myself to LotRO, right?

Now, if WB-Turbine does the boring color-coded railroad talent trees but allow us to save and switch sets out in the field, in combat, without a bard or something, that may help my toleration (I agree with Adanamir that it's still quite limited, though).

Money and time--instead of this insipid class trait->tree revamp, we could be getting a proper Legendary Item revamp. /sigh You know something is still wrong with that when you get 5/6 majors on your 2A and feel DISAPPOINTED because you know you have to destroy it at the next expac.

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Crit crafting & the RNG | Dumb noob things we've done in LotRO...
"Be not so eager to advance that you fail to experience the moment, in life and in all things." -Deluros, Rivendell
legendary: adj.
1. Gilded (having a pleasing or showy appearance that conceals something of little worth)
2. Having an appearance of grandeur that obfuscates by complexity and arbitrariness
3. Disposable

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Originally Posted by Trilwych

Quoting a bit out of order...
Money and time--instead of this insipid class trait->tree revamp, we could be getting a proper Legendary Item revamp. /sigh You know something is still wrong with that when you get 5/6 majors on your 2A and feel DISAPPOINTED because you know you have to destroy it at the next expac.

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There is nothing wrong from a developer's standpoint.

The LI system is a huge time sink and turbine points sink. This is one changed that got introduced for the sole developer's benefit, at the expense of the player.
The player has no choice but embracing the system, whether he likes it or not, at the risk of gimping himself if it does not.

Honestly, some might like the system, as it allows some flexibility (or not) regarding relics and legacies choices, but it does not change the above facts.

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Originally Posted by Aohh

There is nothing wrong from a developer's standpoint.

The LI system is a huge time sink and turbine points sink. This is one changed that got introduced for the sole developer's benefit, at the expense of the player.
The player has no choice but embracing the system, whether he likes it or not, at the risk of gimping himself if it does not.

Honestly, some might like the system, as it allows some flexibility (or not) regarding relics and legacies choices, but it does not change the above facts.

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True that it serves a purpose, but it is and always has been a fairly large frustration factor ever since its inception. Add in the disposable nature of the bleeden things people tend to hold them a bit at arms length. Now nothing wrong with this if other content in the game removes some of the focus. But as we saw in Mirkwood/Enedwaith it can be another stresor wich is cumulative when you have very little to distract you from it.

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Originally Posted by Bendin

True that it serves a purpose, but it is and always has been a fairly large frustration factor ever since its inception. Add in the disposable nature of the bleeden things people tend to hold them a bit at arms length. Now nothing wrong with this if other content in the game removes some of the focus. But as we saw in Mirkwood/Enedwaith it can be another stresor wich is cumulative when you have very little to distract you from it.

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"Annoying" aspects of the game are only as annoying as people allow them to be. For example, I don't fret about the legendary item system, so it doesn't annoy me.

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Originally Posted by maxjenius

"Annoying" aspects of the game are only as annoying as people allow them to be. For example, I don't fret about the legendary item system, so it doesn't annoy me.

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WEll good for you. That doesnt address his point however that much of the former and current player bases attitude towards LIs has rranged from its ok I guess to active hate.

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Originally Posted by Skippa

WEll good for you. That doesnt address his point however that much of the former and current player bases attitude towards LIs has rranged from its ok I guess to active hate.

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Actually that wasnt the entire point, my point is it is a tolerable grind for the playerbase thats left, with only moderate frustration. Its potential hazards are is that its not a selling point and can be another stressor if there is not other content that masks it somewhat. That imho had some contribution (by no means the main contributer) to the mass die off after mirkwood. Very rarely do large numbers of people leave over one thing, its usually a cumulative set of factors. Some big some small.

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Originally Posted by Skippa

WEll good for you. That doesnt address his point however that much of the former and current player bases attitude towards LIs has rranged from its ok I guess to active hate.

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It does address his point. It's a game. Do they also hate the dog token in Monopoly? Those who hate the legendary item system can simply choose not to hate it. Problem solved. Lack of adventuring content, though, that's pretty hard to ignore.

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Originally Posted by maxjenius

It does address his point. It's a game. Do they also hate the dog token in Monopoly? Those who hate the legendary item system can simply choose not to hate it. Problem solved. Lack of adventuring content, though, that's pretty hard to ignore.

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Ahh I see so its the players fault if they dont like a -feature-

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Originally Posted by maxjenius

I don't like skirmishes. If I enjoyed running the same mindless combat instances over and over and over and over, I'd still be playing DDO. The only ones I do are the ones in the Epic, which I hold my nose and do so I can advance the Epic. Adding skirmishes as optional add-ons to the Epic is fine. But there are enough mandatory ("mandatory" in terms of completing the various Epic lines) as it is.

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go troll elsewhere please

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Originally Posted by Aohh

The LI system is a huge time sink and turbine points sink. This is one changed that got introduced for the sole developer's benefit, at the expense of the player.

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So, why do you think Turbine is going to such big effort to revamp the classes like this? Why are they ignoring something so widely disliked and focusing instead on classes, again. There is a lot more to worry about than skill trees. We could be getting "Legendary Characters", monetization done more better. This dev chat said:

Q5: Will class updates also bring updates to creep classes?
A5: We need to see if the freep changes entirely explode in a fiery train wreck first.

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Originally Posted by Silverangel

So, why do you think Turbine is going to such big effort to revamp the classes like this? Why are they ignoring something so widely disliked and focusing instead on classes, again. There is a lot more to worry about than skill trees. We could be getting "Legendary Characters", monetization done more better. This dev chat said:

Q5: Will class updates also bring updates to creep classes?
A5: We need to see if the freep changes entirely explode in a fiery train wreck first.

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To answer your question in my opinion, it is because it is simpler that way.
Class revamps kill many birds with one stone:
- It's a straight way to address the more casual friendly vague. I am sure that the design will be 'dumbed down' instead of being more complex.
- It will also adapt the stats standardization: all heavy armours class will seek might, medium armour class will seek agility and light armour class will seek will as their primary stat. It makes itemization clearer and the content to balance simpler. Since we have more tank and spank fights than anything; classes will again lose complexity, roles will be melded.
- It will address the issue raised by unused or underused trait lines, such as the trapper line for the Hunter
- It will acknowledge 'talent trees'. Again a simplification, since customization and choices will be reduced.
- And last but not least, it's one of the more obvious way to do some new stuff with old tools. Turbine promised changes and new stuff, so a class revamp program may be less costly in term of development costs than introducing a whole new feature.

Long story short, in term of MMO development, priorities are set by producers and directly address the needs of the most profitable crowd. So what we might see as priorities as players, might completely not be seen as such from the company.

I guess they think the LI systems, though controversial is too good from a commercial standpoint, and changes, if changes there are will be done later, and certainly not totally in the way expected by players.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Oh and for those wanting female creep classes, just a little trivia. All Weavers and Wargs are female. And no I'm not kidding or making it up.

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Does this mean I should submit a ./bug for every instance my wargie is referred to as "he" or "his"? ^_^

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Originally Posted by Skippa

go troll elsewhere please

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Age before beauty.

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Ahh I see so its the players fault if they dont like a -feature-

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So you do get it. I don't like skirmishes, as I stated. So what do I do? I skip them except for the ones in the Epic lines I want to complete.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

BQ3 Bastiat1 - Can you please explain the design decision to have the single best in slot item in the game (Horse-lords bracelets) drop primarily from over-land level 85 trash mobs? What objective were the designers trying to achieve?
BA3 JWB - There are a lot of equipment slots and upgrades available in game. The best thing for absolutely every slot shouldn't be relegated to only 1 type of content.

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I think Devs have a funny view on this point. As of U10 there will hardly be any Best-in-slot-item that's not available with solo-content, most of it is solo only. Let's start:

- Pocket
- Earring
- Wrist
- Shoulders
- Helmet
- LI-Stuff (relics that is)
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So what's left for group-content?
- 4 parts of armour
- fingers
- 2nd hand weapons
- LI-Stuff (crystals)

So what the devs say might be true. The best thing for every slot shouldn't be relegated to only 1 type of content. Yeah. Shouldn't be ey. Why is most of that best-in-slot-stuff solo-only then? We just want what you said there: options!

I don't mind if solo is one of many possibilities to acquire an item. But solo only? Force players who want to optimize themselves into solo-content for almost every bloody slot? That doesn't make sense - mostly with aforementioned arguments from the devs.

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Originally Posted by Tyene

Does this mean I should submit a ./bug for every instance my wargie is referred to as "he" or "his"? ^_^

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Take a good look at your Warg. :cool:

First I want to say that I love lotro.

That class change fear me a lot, after ROI they did enough class changes that i stopped my VIP and stop playing for 1 month.

you know why? because you changed my play-style ...

did someone evaluate how much player will be pissed off and leave, how much cash you will loose with class revision ?

Human nature don't like change, and when its a character you dedicated time and efforts for years...

peoples like how they play now, change that a little bit too much and you will loose huge amount of current / potential customers.

I truly DONT want to see a nerf to my class AGAIN, ill just delete him this time

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Originally Posted by Aohh

I guess they think the LI systems, though controversial is too good from a commercial standpoint, and changes, if changes there are will be done later, and certainly not totally in the way expected by players.

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I was pointing out that why would we not think the classes revamp will be the same--to make good from a commercial standpoint, regardless of how the players feel about it. Have they not lost players due to legendary items? Yes. Absolutely, and I would think a lot. In exchange for the monetization.

They've revamped the hunter trapper and burglar at least twice and never made anything better in terms of utilization, so there is no reason to expect anything better this time, imo. It would be wonderful if something drastic happened, though, at least for a few class spots.

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Originally Posted by Silverangel

I was pointing out that why would we not think the classes revamp will be the same--to make good from a commercial standpoint, regardless of how the players feel about it. Have they not lost players due to legendary items? Yes. Absolutely, and I would think a lot. In exchange for the monetization.

They've revamped the hunter trapper and burglar at least twice and never made anything better in terms of utilization, so there is no reason to expect anything better this time, imo. It would be wonderful if something drastic happened, though, at least for a few class spots.

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Ah indeed I totally missed your point.
Well that's what I think as well. Class revamps are placing players needs and wants secondary, at the expense of the developer's convenience.
As far as I know, the talent trees design is an unilateral decision. I'm not sure that is a demand of players - quite the contrary if I judge by the forums.

I hope they don't limit our options on trait trees.

As a LM I enjoy being able to choose what is useful, I can trait 5red/2blue, maybe I want to DPS and also be able to remove wounds/disease and have extended antistun - good for skraids especially. Or maybe 5 red, 1 blue and 1 yellow for power and wisdom... we know how power thirsty you all are.

I also like for raiding, maybe I want 5 yellow and 2 blue, or 5 yellow, 1 red and 1 blue, who knows. The fact is I have a choice. Ok so Wind - Lore is useless in this fight, ok so I wont trait the yellow trait for that.... Ill rather choose....

LM is a complex class. I love the thrill of being challenged. Saru T2 for example, a lot for 1 LM to do there. The point Im trying to make is that I dont want to be forced to choose 1 trait to access another, I love the freedom of choosing. A game with CHOICE is hard to come by. They are already standardising power pools, something else I find a bit upsetting because Im proud to be the way I am.

LM is so versatile if they change the way we play, our unique playstyles then a lot of people will be upset after playing one class with such multiple roles for years and years so LM Dev please please don't lessen our ability to be awesomely different and versatile.

(I realise this applies to all classes but my plea tonight is for LMs)