Massively Helm's Deep news and pictures!!!

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Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

you won't answer the questions.

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the trait are broken. traits need updateing.

traits don't fit design anymore. change traits.

buffet system too open ended. choose well practised system so they can do a good job first time round.

sum it up? again, you probably would of read that if you've been up to date with such discussions...

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Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

If your car's transmission is broken, do you believe changing the paint job will fix it??

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buffet trait system to tree trait system. there the same part of the game.

if your car seat is breaking, you could refurbish it or replace it. was the seat that good in the first place? is it worth it to have the old chair back?

it's easier to start a fresh. remember, it's not just the trait system thats being updated. what ever mechanical changes to the classes are being done also would need to be balanced onto the traits. from what we've been told we get "spec bonuses" apon choosing a line, like how you choose a light medium or heavy horse. how could have those on the buffet system? would it make sense? is that really the simplist solution?

your insulting tone doesn't help your cause too.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Actually it's not. We stated repeatedly to the press (I know, I was there and actually typed it out in explicit detail) that the in game screen we showed them at the time of their preview was place holder and that the turbine point icons on the left hand column were entirely place holder art and would be replaced in the next build. Which we sent them a screenshot for.

THIS is the correct screen shot that we sent them after the tour. The skills on the left unlock as you progress through the trees. They're not gated by Turbine Points.





The housing update is not part of the expansion. That doesn't mean we aren't still planning on making changes this year (after the expansion launches).

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The housing will be never uppdated u just cant admiit it, so u and the rest of dev team only promising it will be "revamped in the future" each year the same story.

Any new graphical update coming with HD? New textures, lighting effects, animations or something:)
Oh and older zones revamp with revamped maps?

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Originally Posted by AaylaKheledlire

Enjoy:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/09...ne-helms-deep/

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Wow, that virtue tree looks god awful.. Well, this will be the first time in six years this game is not on my PC. Welcome to Lord of the Uninstalled Online. Refuse to keep playing in the direction this has gone & is still going. If I wanted to play World of Warcraft, I would subscribe to Blizzard.

What a joke.

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Originally Posted by Linnier

Wow, that virtue tree looks god awful.. Well, this will be the first time in six years this game is not on my PC. Welcome to Lord of the Uninstalled Online. Refuse to keep playing in the direction this has gone & is still going. If I wanted to play World of Warcraft, I would subscribe to Blizzard.

What a joke.

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Were you intending to play with the traiting window permanently open?

I'm pumped for the next expac. Class revamps, hundreds of new quests, Helm's Deep, 5 giant end-game battle instances designed by jwberry and team, what is not to love?

Housing updates coming some point after release sound good too.

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Originally Posted by Mirnir

Were you intending to play with the traiting window permanently open?

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Took away the only thing the game had left, customization. Now everyone will use the exact same specializations. Straw that broke the camels back for me. See no purpose in even trying to argue a valid point with anyone, moving on & wish the game the best but it's heading for the worst.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

the trait are broken. traits need updateing.

traits don't fit design anymore. change traits.

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Traits are broken and need updating is a separate issue. They could easily have the same traits in the new system, in fact I'll bet your login info that they do. That the old traits wouldn't fit the new system and then adding the old traits to the new system is contradictory and makes no sense.

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buffet system too open ended. choose well practised system so they can do a good job first time round.

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Another assumption. Turbine's history states that the first time around is nothing more than a live beta for any new mechanics/systems.

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sum it up? again, you probably would of read that if you've been up to date with such discussions...

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I'd have been up to date on your assumptions and Turbine's facile reasoning for the change? I am.

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buffet trait system to tree trait system. there the same part of the game.

if your car seat is breaking, you could refurbish it or replace it. was the seat that good in the first place? is it worth it to have the old chair back?

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Your analogy is wrong.

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it's easier to start a fresh.

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Another baseless assumption.

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remember, it's not just the trait system thats being updated. what ever mechanical changes to the classes are being done also would need to be balanced onto the traits. from what we've been told we get "spec bonuses" apon choosing a line, like how you choose a light medium or heavy horse. how could have those on the buffet system? would it make sense? is that really the simplist solution?

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Who knows, but again this is all conjecture.

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your insulting tone doesn't help your cause too.

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I don't have a cause and you're insulting. Just because you are coming down on Turbine's side doesn't give you a mandate to be a dick. I asked given the weaknesses in the current system as stated by turbine, how would a new system fix those issues?

No one has yet to answer that question.

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Originally Posted by Linnier

Took away the only thing the game had left, customization. Now everyone will use the exact same specializations. Straw that broke the camels back for me. See no purpose in even trying to argue a valid point with anyone, moving on & wish the game the best but it's heading for the worst.

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Oh - I just thought it weird you would be so offended by the visuals you would leave the game, but that's how it read to me. :)

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Originally Posted by Linnier

Took away the only thing the game had left, customization. Now everyone will use the exact same specializations. Straw that broke the camels back for me. See no purpose in even trying to argue a valid point with anyone, moving on & wish the game the best but it's heading for the worst.

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If it breaks the game, we all leave, lotro dies, no argument. However, a couple tweet length posts and a screen shot don't tell us anything of substance. We know we're getting trees, that's about it. How functional they'll be, how much room for customization, etc. is an unknown. You have concerns, I have concerns, we all have concerns.

I'm not suggesting you pre-order, not suggesting you buy the expac, but I have absolutely no problem saying you're a bit of an idiot if the announcement "there will be changes" is what chases you away. Be concerned, be READY to leave, fine, but on HD launch you're an idiot if you don't update your client, get in game, and actually check out what they've designed. Won't cost you anything but about 1hr patching time. Do that and you'll have full authority to run screaming for the hills if you so choose. But to leave now? Asinine.

Why does Helms Deep look completely different than what it did in the concept art? Besides the obvious animation part, the two look like they are completely unrelated. I like the way it looked in the concept art, these screenshots of Helms Deep just look too colorful. Perhaps it will look better at night. However, the rest of the screenshots of Rohan look pretty good, they look just like Rohan should. And the Dark Door=Epic.
As for the trait trees, it looks completely like I thought it would: Unoriginal. I just flat out hate what they are planing to do with the classes, it makes absolutely no sense.
Turbine still has time left before this turns into a complete disaster, and turn the classes into something that pretty much ever other MMO has done. This was one of the few things that made LOTRO stand out.

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Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

I don't have a cause and you're insulting. Just because you are coming down on Turbine's side doesn't give you a mandate to be a dick. I asked given the weaknesses in the current system as stated by turbine, how would a new system fix those issues?

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My assumption is that you cannot get the best traits for each line in a single build anymore.
Which forces you more into a specialized role which is what Turbine wants.

Possibly they could have done that with the existing system by maybe penalizing certain combinations of traits from different trait lines.

Also another point is toon development after levels 60-65. All we have from then on is a few - mostly just improved - skills, mounted combat and the LI/gear grind. Trees are arguably easier to span over more levels and extend later on.
The current weaknesses are surely different from class to class. The usability of a warden as a tank below 50 is really not high e.g.


I am quite wary about these changes. Changes like this are rather huge changes and can surely drive people away from the game as their beloved toons change their behavior probably quite drastically. On the other hand it is a chance to learn some stuff again which keeps things fresh. As long as they do not totally overhaul the classes and several viable roles for each will still be there (but not at the same time) I can see that it will work out.
However I can envision that it will fail - for me that is - as well.

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Originally Posted by Gondalen_Drake

So thats it... "the big bad brother of skirmishes" and "that it'll be the new endgame, replacing the typical expansion addition of new skirmishes, instances, or raids."

REALLY??????

If thats true im really gone from this game. infinte and forever.

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Sounds ominous indeed. No more new raids, instances, or skirmishes would be a killer. I think I'm going to enjoy looking around the new area, doing the quests, maybe try the big battle, and then be bored for another year. Hopefully not too much versatility and skills will be lost with this new tree system.

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Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

Another assumption. Turbine's history states that the first time around is nothing more than a live beta for any new mechanics/systems.

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not an assumtion... they've told us thats what they believe... and tbh, I agree and I have done since MoM when they introduced set bonuses. should of just left it full buffet, but going backwards would be worse now.

anyway, heres a quote for you.

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"The team had grown unhappy with two major observations regarding class development: that the early game was too unfocused and lacked choices when it came to class builds, and that the late game ended up featuring classes that were all good at more or less the same things. Hence the desire to give meaningful choices early on with an emphasis on creating memorable and focused builds. "

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maybe send a message to sapience. a "why did you do the class revamps the way they did". you might get a leanthy consolidation of what we've seen in snippets around. also, why tree trait system. but imo, and yes that is fully assumtions. it's because it's a tried and tested method than has worked on mmo's. lotro can look and learn from failed tree traits and get an idea of what makes a good one.

like I mentioned before though. the basis of the buffet system was to be able to choose any trait you wished. balanceing 20+ traits has obviously been too much for them, the professionals, and I think making focused rolls under the buffet system will look absolutely horrible. that was there design with set bonuses ages ago, and that failed. since, they've been adding plasters but not fixing it.

and from there your lack believing me and assumtions on both sides, I'll just keep on repeating myself. I also can't quote the twitter chat as it's been took off now. but you really should of read up if your going to be passionate about it so late in it's development.

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Originally Posted by Celebrawn

Sounds ominous indeed. No more new raids, instances, or skirmishes would be a killer. I think I'm going to enjoy looking around the new area, doing the quests, maybe try the big battle, and then be bored for another year. Hopefully not too much versatility and skills will be lost with this new tree system.

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That's just for Update 12. We could always get 'traditional' instances/raids in a later post expansion update down the road.

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Originally Posted by monk_tbd

My assumption is that you cannot get the best traits for each line in a single build anymore.
Which forces you more into a specialized role which is what Turbine wants.

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And your assumption (and turbine's) is that it's going to work that way.

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Possibly they could have done that with the existing system by maybe penalizing certain combinations of traits from different trait lines.

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Exactly. So instead of a fully customizable system whose weakness were the traits themselves, we lose the customization with no indication that the weaknesses of the traits will be resolved. This lose of the potential for customization reduces our individual ability to have unique builds which will...

wait for it..

Lead to cookie cutter builds. Which is one of the guiding principles Turbine is espousing in making this change in the first place.

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Also another point is toon development after levels 60-65.

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Another counter intuitive point. We level so quickly that we barely notice these levels going by, so why are they so concerned with it?

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All we have from then on is a few - mostly just improved - skills, mounted combat and the LI/gear grind. Trees are arguably easier to span over more levels and extend later on. The current weaknesses are surely different from class to class. The usability of a warden as a tank below 50 is really not high e.g.

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But for the fact that there will no longer be any type of content that would warrant additional skills or traits, you'd be correct.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

they've told us thats what they believe

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Another assumption.

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Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

Another assumption.

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not even reading my posts now? nice :(

guess you can't please everyone

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Originally Posted by angrolas

This was one of the few things that made LOTRO stand out.

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It did, sort of, after a fashion, for some classes.

Almost

I won't claim to be an expert in all classes, my LM has been sitting in an Angmar orc camp for the last 8 months waiting for me to get back to page grinding, and I never really bothered with my captain once I reached cap. But for some classes at least, esp in their 'normal' raid roles, I can truly tell you there wasn't much variety to be found among the best players. We don't have WoW theory crafters or whatever godawful, self-important name they gave themselves, but we have very easily identifiable 'best' builds. Look at a dozen of the best dps burgs in raid setup, guarantee that, excepting the occasional mechanical wrinkle on specific bosses, they're all traited exactly the same. All dual-wielding champs, the same. All 2h champs, the same. Lord, nothing is easier than spotting a bad hunter when they show up to raid, because, again, there really is only one way to trait/set up LIs. Healing mini, again, pretty much exactly the same.

My guard is my beloved main, I tank every chance I get. I even quest tank geared and tank traited, because why the heck not? In the past year I've made 3 adjustments to my traiting when circumstances have required it: 1) I got rid of defensive expertise when I realized I'd overcapped block by 2k, 2) I trait CtD for dps races 3) I traited full survival for BfE t2/c since threat didn't matter. Otherwise, we all trait the same.

Anytime any class needs to fulfill a different role, as dictated by the mechanics of a fight or the available players on a given night, we head to the bard. Now, I'm not saying this is going to be all sunshine and roses, because I honestly do feel for the LMs and captains atm, but for most of the classes, to the extent we actually have choices now, we'll likely continue to have choices with HD. We'll just have to find a new cookie cutter to replace the old.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

not even reading my posts now? nice :(

guess you can't please everyone

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You've been editing out the questions from my posts that you can't answer since we started and now you're complaining because I've decided to only address a specific point this time? Hypocrite much?

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Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

You've been editing out the questions from my posts that you can't answer since we started and now you're complaining because I've decided to only address a specific point this time? Hypocrite much?

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I edit it out so the forums arn't filled with useless quotes. I've tried answering them to them best of my ability, but you instantly cast out assumptions (which they are, well done, most of the forums is...). if you don't want the community to talk to you, wait for developer diaries, I'm not a developer and can't speak exactly how they work. just my experience of a training games dev+designer and my experience on the game I can tell you what it is and what it could be.

please go read that last post. it does have a quote that might answer a little.

Maybe I'm in a minority, but I for one am all for specialization. I have 4 very different classes at current cap (hunter, LM, Guardian, Cappy) and the more different they are the more I enjoy them. It seems weird to me that classes can become so customizable/flexible that a Champion (say) can tank just about as good as a Guardian, especially while still retaining some pretty uber DPS and pretty potent self-heals/bubbles.

I like a system with strong trade-offs, and with the limited info I have now it seems like these trees might force that a bit more than the current system. For instance my LM currently gets some heavy CC penalties for traiting deep into the red line. I like that, but I don’t think there’s enough of that kind of thing in the current system: he can also easily heal 3-man runs on T2 Challenge mode using only 2 blue traits, meaning I don’t have to drop a single red or sacrifice DPS to maximize my healing.

I’m all for a system that will allow me to spec a healing build and a DPS build, and then force me to choose between them. I'd rather have to roll 3 or 4 characters to get a different experience than be able to customize one character into 3 different roles

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Originally Posted by Celebrawn

Sounds ominous indeed. No more new raids, instances, or skirmishes would be a killer. I think I'm going to enjoy looking around the new area, doing the quests, maybe try the big battle, and then be bored for another year. Hopefully not too much versatility and skills will be lost with this new tree system.

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No more raids, instances getting added to the game would prolly finally make me finally uninstall Lotro not that I have played in the past few months.

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Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

And your assumption (and turbine's) is that it's going to work that way.

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Not sure i understand.
There are arguably two or three traits per line that one would call "best" for a class which you maybe cannot get anymore in a single build.
If they would have changed the current system so that choosing two "best" traits from different lines would cause penalties so big that you would do yourself a disservice to do it then you likely would not.
While you wold still have the choice it would basically also move you into the direction of a cookie cutter build.

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Exactly. So instead of a fully customizable system whose weakness were the traits themselves, we lose the customization with no indication that the weaknesses of the traits will be resolved. This lose of the potential for customization reduces our individual ability to have unique builds which will...

wait for it..

Lead to cookie cutter builds. Which is one of the guiding principles Turbine is espousing in making this change in the first place.

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I am aware it leads to cookie cutter builds. At least if you spec into a certain role.
A lot of minis heal currently with 4y/3b. Some use 4b/3y. Some like the blue traits.
I like my 4y/3b. I expect this not to work as good anymore with the revamp i.e. I likely will not be able to get anthem duration and cd to the same levels without giving up more healing (which I already did anyway by not having 4 blues).
Something like this will happen to all classes.
It would probably be ok if the buffing of the mini's yellow line will be better and have minis be the main buffer if a cappy is not available.

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Another counter intuitive point. We level so quickly that we barely notice these levels going by, so why are they so concerned with it?

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You need to see that the revamp is not done for long term players but also for players coming new to the game.
The first time through it takes awhile (unless your goal is to reach endgame ASAP which would be a waste for a game like this in my opinion - and not necessarily because of the state of the endgame)

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But for the fact that there will no longer be any type of content that would warrant additional skills or traits, you'd be correct.

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So what is your point then?
Toon development past 60 should be just LI and gear grind?

The trees will give Turbine a chance to have several tiers of improved skills as we have them now, the basic version doing even less than what the current basic version does.
This is a way of toon development even if it looks like a regression from what we are currently used to.

In any case a lot of changes will come.
I am very unsure I will like them. If it is anything like MC then no thank you.
However I think the main problem with MC is the actual combat and not necessarily the skills and trait trees connected to it.

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Originally Posted by Faitha81

No more raids, instances getting added to the game would prolly finally make me finally uninstall Lotro not that I have played in the past few months.

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big battles are group content that will be relased on expansion day.

we've been told there are 5 that scale up to raids. they are not like skirmishes too, a raid version will be nothing like a 3man version.

here's the 20Q on the subject
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...93-Big-Battles

if you want group content. you'll be doing Big battles, the scaled instances again, the scaled skirmishes again, and probably new warbands.

so for the first time in a while. we're getting an instance cluster on launch day. if thats not enough, thats kinda being a little too picky :/