Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Lore-master

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Originally Posted by kriskrosed

I'm curious about this as well and would like to add a third question. Have the stats that food gives remained unchanged?

It gets to a larger question. Looks like they got rid of all the threat bonus buffs which would leave the bear as the only pet able to get it unless they also changed food. Also, catmint looks like it's designed to make a bear more tankish. So the question: do pets look like they'll make capable off-tanks, or even, and this is the big one for me, can you still jerry rig a bear into a main tank for smaller scale content?

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Just a reminder on that.. Tank threat is based off of 300% of your DPS, if a PLAYER is in tank stance, plus some forced taunts. Makes me wonder if the Sabre might actually find some use, if he can just get some ability to survive. Then again, we now have in-combat summoning, so that may not matter. However, it does bring to mind that, according to previous Turbine philosophy, the bear is never meant to be a groups tank. They wanted you to get a player. Wonder if that changed too, what with landscape soldiers and all.

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Originally Posted by Wilafred

With the changes to pets and pet buffs, does pet food still add to the pets, or is it not needed anymore?

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Originally Posted by kriskrosed

I'm curious about this as well and would like to add a third question. Have the stats that food gives remained unchanged?

It gets to a larger question. Looks like they got rid of all the threat bonus buffs which would leave the bear as the only pet able to get it unless they also changed food. Also, catmint looks like it's designed to make a bear more tankish. So the question: do pets look like they'll make capable off-tanks, or even, and this is the big one for me, can you still jerry rig a bear into a main tank for smaller scale content?

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Food provides a longer-lasting effect on the pet whilst Catmint has a limited duration (if I remember correctly). Also remember that the Catmint skill only really tops off that which you can give your pet.

To illustrate, a Bag of Eastemnet Crumbs for your Raven or Eagle buffs your bird with the following: +1955 fire mitigation, +638 shadow mitigation, +687 melee offence rating and +1030 evade rating. Catmint (Raven) only increases the potency of the Raven's inherent buff and fire damage debuff skill as well as overall damage but does not increase fire and/or shadow mitigation or its evade rating. Same story with Catmint (Eagle), and, for that matter, with all pets available. Catmint is not there to replace pet food but simply to function as an added buff whilst the pet food is to be used on the pet the same manner as humanoid toons use it (i.e. although our traits increase our tactical damage we still like to use will food).

For as far as I'm aware no stats have changed on food.

Also I don't think bears will ever be meant to be used as a main tank. In the field or in a small fellowship however it could take up that role, but I still think that even then it would not be as potent as a tank class due to it only having three skills rather than a range of skills to use.

Any1 tried some builds for sparring yet?
I guess it will be some hybrid between red and blue, but I wonder if it still can be done without kiting or bursting other cds,
'cause it seems the debuffs get nerfed and the inductions got longer, and most dps buffs seem to be for aoe.

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Originally Posted by Haruno

Any1 tried some builds for sparring yet?
I guess it will be some hybrid between red and blue, but I wonder if it still can be done without kiting or bursting other cds,
'cause it seems the debuffs get nerfed and the inductions got longer, and most dps buffs seem to be for aoe.

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Without WL, Lightning storm or Ents, i only had a couple of defeats from guards, and i tried lots of spars full in all 3 lines. But what i liked best for spars is reddish with 20ish points spent in yellow line.

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Originally Posted by Easca

Also I don't think bears will ever be meant to be used as a main tank. In the field or in a small fellowship however it could take up that role, but I still think that even then it would not be as potent as a tank class due to it only having three skills rather than a range of skills to use.

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This is all true now, and yet it is possible to do. Thank you very much for the info; sounds encouraging.

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Originally Posted by PKCrichton

Honestly most of the changes are very enjoyable. There are just a few issues a number of us still have that haven't been or won't be addressed. The heart of the class exists which is the most important thing.

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We'll see. I'll try it out, but I have my doubts. Faster paced combat sounds great. The change to core class mechanics, not so much.

I disagree that the heart of the class still exists. I can tell just by the write up that the heart of the class is totally different now. I've been here long enough to know that "just give it a try first" is beta tester speak for "well try and like it anyway because this is the only Middle-earth you've got and there's nothing you can do about it anyway." No big. It's just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Estelrandir

In the old times, if you wanted to give 1000 power, you lost same amount - 1000 power. It could be reduced with trait healer, but it would be still 850 power as cost.

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Also it wasn't really that bad as lore master tended to have lots of power compared to some classes, both from slotting will to get lots of power, plus fate which had a more significant power regen component. Even without draining power the lore master was rarely in danger of running low.
Ie, Captain was always running low!

Also remember that for a long time many lore master skills also had morale costs, and not always minor costs. If you were soloing without a healer there could be times where you are actually hurting yourself; I don't think I ever defeated myself that way in combat but I think some LMs did. So this feels a bit like going back to the old style a bit.

As for the RP rationale, remember that it's morale and not health and think about how sad some children get when asked to share their toys. Plus it would seem to be a physical strain as well, veins bulging on the forehead as you support the rest of the group.

I have a *very* important question that noone else seems to have asked ...

With the loss of SOW:R, does any other skill get the 'angry bunny' icon? Like Sic 'em or anything new?

Because it is the best icon in the game, and I may have to start a petition if we no longer have it. I trust I can rely on you all to support it :cool:

oh and the AOE nerfs and the SOPR nerf are just lame imo. but less important than the potential loss of Angry Bunny

sigh. edited for spelling. again

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

I read that before, but thanks for bringing it up. Another thing that was brought into LM class to make them more valuable in groups bites the dust.

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I've also noticed that most classes I've looked at that can remove an effect will now be able to remove fear/wound/poison/disease. Ie, captain's muster courage will cure the gushing arteries in a fellowship, and a guardian can cure his own flu. Combine that with assuming everyone brings their own potions and the need for LM to cure things shrinks a lot (honestly so many players don't bother with pots anymore, I see sambrog runs where they will be stunned from a curable disease).

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Originally Posted by BirdofHermes

That's the one thing I found lacking in East Rohan and Wildermore, Warbands were supposed to be challenging but nearly every class can just solo the existing ones.

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Every class that knows how, builds up their bridle and steed the right way, etc. A lot of people aren't bothering to work hard on the mounted combat builds because ultimately it's not that important. Yes, every class can do this but the majority of players can not. In particular I've found myself one-shot by some things in Wildermore (curse you Conog!) despite thinking I was super powerful.

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Originally Posted by nelar

A lot of that comes from pets, particularly the Bog Lurker that you get at level 16, doing a LOT more damage and being able to hold aggro most of the time.

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I miss that guy, I ran with the keeper of animals and bog lurker from level 60 to 75 and it was a blast. It was so powerful, solo or in groups, partially because it had range damage and partially from its chance to stun and start FMs. It was the only pet I ever had that could hold aggro well. Getting this at level 16 seems a bit too soon in my view, it will spoil new players on all other pet types (and at level 16 they've never even seen a bog lurker in game before).

actually I do have another question (and I note no support for my petition so far. I am outraged!)

I usually trait my LM rainbow. I gather with the different costs for skill trees this is a lot harder now? And because some of the former traits are gated in the trees, it is kind of pointless to be rainbow anyway. Is that a reasonable observation or have I misunderstood?

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Originally Posted by aussie_diva

actually I do have another question (and I note no support for my petition so far. I am outraged!)

I usually trait my LM rainbow. I gather with the different costs for skill trees this is a lot harder now? And because some of the former traits are gated in the trees, it is kind of pointless to be rainbow anyway. Is that a reasonable observation or have I misunderstood?

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Rainbow is harder to support since you won't be specialized much due to the 2 point cost out of your main spec. I've been experimenting with hybrid builds some and here is one that I've found interesting so far.
http://i.imgur.com/cs5LKcD.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lohi

Also it wasn't really that bad as lore master tended to have lots of power compared to some classes, both from slotting will to get lots of power, plus fate which had a more significant power regen component. Even without draining power the lore master was rarely in danger of running low.
Ie, Captain was always running low!

Also remember that for a long time many lore master skills also had morale costs, and not always minor costs. If you were soloing without a healer there could be times where you are actually hurting yourself; I don't think I ever defeated myself that way in combat but I think some LMs did. So this feels a bit like going back to the old style a bit.

As for the RP rationale, remember that it's morale and not health and think about how sad some children get when asked to share their toys. Plus it would seem to be a physical strain as well, veins bulging on the forehead as you support the rest of the group.

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2 things: I never said that it was bad. I said it was so. What I said was, that such mechanism would be bad for today, when you have 7k power and you can share 2,9k power. And where I said health?

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Originally Posted by PKCrichton

Rainbow is harder to support since you won't be specialized much due to the 2 point cost out of your main spec. I've been experimenting with hybrid builds some and here is one that I've found interesting so far.

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Thanks for the screenie. Just a FYI, aussie_diva,

Video on trait trees in the main section on Helm's Deep is informative:
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...eo-Trait-Trees

And a player list links to changes here:
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...des-on-Changes

It appears that, when you go to build your tree, you choose which of the 3 spec lines you will use. Once you do that, any traits in the other trees will cost 2 points, while traits in the one you choose as your main will only cost one. So, you can spend 5 points and get 5 traits in your primary, or spend 10 points and get 5 traits in another line. Since you only have like 55-65 pts, with a maxed out 85-95, makes looking at the other lines seem, expensive. So, you get penalized for rainbows in all classes now.

Oh... and.. sorry.. I guess the Angry Bunny was so small on my screen I never noticed him when I was hitting that button. Dang.. I do remember him tho. Didnt we do this before around Mirkwood?

Have you guys tried spending ALL your points into the red line? I mean, all 55. It looks doable but hard to see what you would end up with going glass cannon, without being able to play in Beta.

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Originally Posted by Estelrandir

2 things: I never said that it was bad.

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I was expanding on your comment in relation to the original question being asked.

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

Have you guys tried spending ALL your points into the red line? I mean, all 55. It looks doable but hard to see what you would end up with going glass cannon, without being able to play in Beta.

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I tried all points in both blue and red. Both seemed survivable in PvE (did not do PvMP). I mostly play blue, but there were a couple places where a quick switch to red was useful because there were multiple mobs and NPCs "helping" you. The AoE damage from red is very handy then. With a pet out, you still have your flank heals, and there is still WL. Also, you can now always summon your pet in combat.

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Originally Posted by FyreBrand

We'll see. I'll try it out, but I have my doubts. Faster paced combat sounds great. The change to core class mechanics, not so much.

I disagree that the heart of the class still exists. I can tell just by the write up that the heart of the class is totally different now. I've been here long enough to know that "just give it a try first" is beta tester speak for "well try and like it anyway because this is the only Middle-earth you've got and there's nothing you can do about it anyway." No big. It's just my opinion.

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I think we might indeed find a rift here, but with the heart of the class I think we can all agree with the following: the Lore-master's heart lies in pets and crowd-control. And pets and crowd-control still are the main skills for the class. We actually haven't lost any of our skills either (well, except for the Signs of the Wild, but they now are traits so we haven't lost them per se). Also we still have access to a lot of skills by simply traiting smartly, e.g. since Fend them Off, the new version of Sword and Staff, doesn't provide additional morale anymore there probably won't be that much interest in it for people who slotted it only for that, so those points can be spent out of spec then.

But I digress. The essence of what the Lore-master is, is there. If you look at the write-up you'll see we have a significantly larger armada of total skills and just to keep things even those skills are sometimes gated. We still do potent debuffs, we still do great damage, and in addition to that we now also have an awesome pet.

"Just give it a try first" is our way of saying "just give it a try first". We are giving our opinions too and by saying this we actually give the final judgement about it to you since it would be unfair on everyone's part if the actuality of the changes were to be dictated by indoctrination by us. "well try and like it anyway because this is the only Middle-earth you've got and there's nothing you can do about it anyway" is kind of what it already is and always has been and always will be.

So in the end I do not think the "core" of the class is lost. However, there is definitely a difference in play style and skill usage that needs getting used to.

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

Have you guys tried spending ALL your points into the red line? I mean, all 55. It looks doable but hard to see what you would end up with going glass cannon, without being able to play in Beta.

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I have spent all my points in every line to the brim and this is what I can conclude from the findings.

First of all, MoNF, despite being slightly slow due to its long inductions, does then do some great damage but unfortunately makes gameplay rather slow. It is possible to get an elite down with three blows (Nature's Fury, Lightning-storm and Ring of Fire) but it. for me, did not have the fun of the little mechanics that the Lore-master has on Live at the moment.

With KoA I think if you were to spend all points in it you would have a massively big and cool pet but you yourself lose quite a lot damage- and mitigation-wise. Still most of the traits in KoA are worth it though, so spending all your points in this line is quite viable if not slightly cruel to pet your pet through. ;)

With AM traiting fully down the line with traiting everyting you basically become a really great debuffer and off-healer. I also really liked how the new system works with the Frost-lore and Fire-lore and their debuffs being based on the damage that's done to them (for as far as I'm aware the damage doesn't have to be done by a LM but can also be done by e.g. a Rune-keeper. Just get a Rune-keeper in your run and your debuffs run sweetly as toffee apple grannies).

If you really want to fight in PvE or solo in a skirm or anything of the likes I would advise to try and make a hybrid. PKCrichton's screenshot showed quite a good one. Another useful one, if you run down the blue line, is using the upper to traits of MoNF to gain yourself some extra fire damage and tactical mastery. This gives you some extra damage whilst your pet also does some great work for you. Same way with other trait configurations - go hybrid. It is possible as several of the skills are not really that necessary under certain circumstances (e.g. if you are needed as an off-healer only because another LM already does the CC, why trait CC? Use those trait points for your pet so your pet can actually do something whilst you heal).

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Originally Posted by Easca

the Lore-master's heart lies in pets and crowd-control. And pets and crowd-control still are the main skills for the class.

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Thanks for the replys so far.. now.. about that CC thing you mentioned... I know we CAN DO it, but.. is there very much we CAN CC? I mean.. from the look of it, the EB guys look immune. So.. is there any reason to trait AM? And, this coming from a guy who traited AM and KOA until level 75, when I gave up and just became an arsonmaster because I was way too survivable. (Still have the notes on what traits to put on tho.)

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

Thanks for the replys so far.. now.. about that CC thing you mentioned... I know we CAN DO it, but.. is there very much we CAN CC? I mean.. from the look of it, the EB guys look immune. So.. is there any reason to trait AM? And, this coming from a guy who traited AM and KOA until level 75, when I gave up and just became an arsonmaster because I was way too survivable. (Still have the notes on what traits to put on tho.)

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Well, it is still useful in raids, skirmishes, instances, runs, landscape nemesises and the likes. In BB it might not be necessarily that useful but do also remember that BBs don't work as raids. Basically in a BB you are just one of the many soldiers standing there, and we all know what the ending is going to be like since it has been described as so in the books. In the BBs we have three roles: Vanguard, Engineer and Officer (I think). A Vanguard is the person who awaits the flow of enemies and deals damage, the Engineer repairs and shoots shootable apparatusses, and the Officer runs around ordering the officers on the field to do whatever they must do to their men. There is no place for real crowd-control in here because it simply wasn't mentioned as so in the books - there were no people weakening the enemy since in this massive clash it was either kill or be killed; no place for intermediary stuff, you kill them.

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Originally Posted by PKCrichton

Rainbow is harder to support since you won't be specialized much due to the 2 point cost out of your main spec. I've been experimenting with hybrid builds some and here is one that I've found interesting so far.
http://i.imgur.com/cs5LKcD.jpg

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I tried something like that at 85 with 55 points (in order to get the 15% induction reduction). How are you liking it?

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

I tried something like that at 85 with 55 points (in order to get the 15% induction reduction). How are you liking it?

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I could say I liked it, but I would be lying. All the pretty icons have no meaning right now, and could change within the next 10 days.

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Originally Posted by Easca

But I digress. The essence of what the Lore-master is, is there.

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The essence though definitely included debuffing, it was core to the class and we did it better than anyone else. In many ways LM debuffs are crowd control; they don't stun or mezz but they greatly reduce the effectiveness of a crowd. At some stages in the game they would be the difference between struggling at conent versus succeeding. This is much of what makes a "support" class work.

What made a lore master an "advanced" class was the subtlety it had. Much of that came from the debuffing. You didn't see the effect right away, there were no flashy effects, etc. So the improvements in pets are nice, allowing messing in all builds is nice, but debuffing seems to be diminished a lot. Especially untraited debuffing. So that essence of the lore master is no longer there, even if you can spec for it.