Official Discussion: Helm's Deep NDA Drop.

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Originally Posted by nelar

It takes one keystroke and two mouse clicks to completely change specs, and it can be done anytime and anywhere as long as you are not in combat. People who realize that and take advantage of it, are going to find a LOT more varied play with their classes then those who stick with a single spec. So for example, if you are out on your own taking on normal landscape mobs, you won't need any survivability skills. Run into a signature, or elite, or some other difficult content, and a couple of seconds later you've switched to a spec that can handle it. So rather then cluttering up you toolbar with every possible skill you might ever want under any possible circumstance, you simply switch specs to match what you are doing at the time.

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Not quite.

First you need to figure out where the new skills for the spec you just switched to have been placed on your toolbars. As things stand now, they get plopped into the first free slots you have open.

If you are used to placing your skills in specific spots, get ready to play "hunt the skill" every time you switch from one spec to another.

There is still the possibility that this can be sorted out before launch, though.

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Originally Posted by Andthelion

Tolkien spelled out the story behind the 3 erebor raids recently released as well, but you can fail those.

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You fail if you're dead.....

maybe if you fail too many of the encounters the uruks zerg the wall and dine on the heroes and you for dessert.

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Originally Posted by Lunasa

You can get platinum in the solo battle just like you can get in a group battle. During Beta I got platinum medal on most quests in all 8 Battles which we get. This includes both side and main quests.

This was announced already many months ago in the some of the official "20 Questions", and this is how it worked in Beta since the moment when the Battles were shown to the testers.

The only difference in the Platinum medals which a player can obtain solo or in group is the amount of points it contributes towards the main reward. It is possible to say that the Platinum medals from the raid are more valuable and you need just a few of those for a piece of jewelry, while you need 20 medals from the solo Battles. But the reward is the same - jewelry with class-specific set bonuses.

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Hmmmm, that...sounds more accurate than mine. I must have totally forgotten about that little tidbit. I just thought when I talked to JWB that soloers couldn't finish a battle with a Platinum medal. But now I remember that the amount of points is different. My apologies then.

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Originally Posted by Wilkor

Just going to address this part and it sounds like the developer has their head screwed on right regarding the mini in this aspect. What has happened is that minstrels have managed to delude themselves thanks to previous poor changes that they should be unkillable death machines who can faceroll everything in their path because damnit skill is for other people. WRONG. We have light armour so yes, you get hit as a mini, you go down like a sack of potatos. Get rid of this godmode complex and realise that tougher people should be taking the hits and your heals and buffs are meant for them. Ironically this means you might have to group up in a MMO.

As for DPS, again, minstels deluded into thinking they should be doing everything and all roles revolve around them. Minstrels are not a dps class, other classes are. We have our roles, they have theirs.

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This goes along with what I think too. Classes have their roles, so play them. When I came into the MMO world Ranger archetypes were better off-tanks than DPS. You had Caster Glass Cannons for DPS. The changes started in RoI (played before that for a little bit) made the role line disappear and allowed for across the board soloing of almost everything. Generally speaking, there is too much DPS on live, and not enough support and specialty roles. Who remembers a time in when a Thief/Burglar had to stealth behind "enemy lines" to start things off?

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Originally Posted by Veria

Class changes: as other posters already said, many classes get screwed over and lose what they loved but none come close to the treatment "revamped" Minstrel got. None of this is exagerration. There have been about 30 pgs of class feedback thread and currently 25pg long thread with mostly great posts, detailed dps comparison, bugs, suggestions, etc. Unfortunately very very little of this was heard, or applied.

It's gona be harsh but our minstrel dev neither likes the class nor does she have knowledge of class, creativity and desire to bring meaningful improvements.

Suffice to say, while most other classes were getting page long changes almost every beta build and interaction with dev on forum few times a week, we kept getting handful of changes (or 0) and no word from her since early October.

-even our minstrel diary is wrong. It claimed in redline we're gona be single target specialists (thankfully it never was like that in any beta build). But just shows there's no vision for minstrel. It's probably also the only line in the game with 0 new skills for new expac.

All we ask for is give us dev who CARES. :)

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I'm afraid I have to agree with a lot of this. Felt like the dev was more of a "Manchurian candidate" out to break a class than do it some good.
I don't disagree the minstrel is over powered, especially when well played. But the dev took away the repeating rifles and gave the minstrel rocks to throw.
This is the single most disappointing thing so far that has ever happened to my favorite class since I started playing this game.

Here is one unhappy hunter - I feel this changes really dumb down our class. The DPS jumps up, which makes the DPS-junkies happy, but the versality is gone. No more tactics whilst travelling solo, just dumb DPS-them-down. Also, since you do and take more damage, fights are sped up. And this is WAI.

I probably will stay around because of the lore, but not because of the game-mechanics any longer (which I liked until now). Spending further money in the future? I doubt it.

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Most players in Beta dislike the changes, this may or may not be the reason for not lifting the NDA on the beta forums. Decide for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Andthelion

Given that this is END GAME content I should highly hope it is possible to fail it.

Jeez guys this is supposed to be the pinnacle of the game and you are arguing over whether these are completable whilst afk, the very fact that that is a discussion shows you how ridiculous these things are

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Fighting side by side with a lvl 10 character who had the stats on his/her gear increased to level 95 and still trying to figure out how to play Lotro is hardly something I would call endgame ...

Yes they are loud, they are hectic and once you see that group of uruks slowly moving then charging into battle it does get the feeling right, but bottom line is they're not fun to play.

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Originally Posted by Nonan

Here is one unhappy hunter - I feel this changes really dumb down our class.

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As my RK how he's enjoying the changes ... or any other hybrid class.

#82 posts in and so far 98% of the feedback is not positive ...

Regarding the class changes, we are losing some versatility, but we are gaining distinction. By this I mean that when you switch from one trait tree to another, it isn't simply a matter of a handful of bonuses and maybe a capstone, but rather a significant change to how you play the class. Several skills are gated by trait trees, and several others are found in the trait trees themselves, some easy to acquire at lower ranks (making them accessible to hybrids) and others much deeper in, requiring specialisation.

To highlight this distinction, Hunter is a very good example. I have played all three lines on live and all three on beta, and while some of the bonuses remain intact, the builds are far more distinct and defined in Helm's Deep, so if you get bored of standing on the spot nuking everything from afar, you can switch from Bowmaster to Huntsman, allowing you to induct on the move, and giving you access to several different skills, while restricting access to others. This freedom of movement also comes with the penalty of reduced range. If you get tired of that, try the Trapper of Foes line, which has seen the biggest changes. It has now become a very different style of play, where traps are more numerable and more useful, and crowd control is a big focus, with a Decoy skill to distract enemies as well. Damage takes a hit, but survivability increases -- and above and beyond all other things, it is very fun to play.

This forces you to try a different style of play, and you may find that you like one of the three main styles per class more than the others, or you might like to alternate between them all, or specifically cater a style and build to the content you are facing. The choices are there, and I would argue that there are more choices in Helm's Deep, and that those choices are much more meaningful. They do come with a cost, however, so if you want more survivability, for example, you have to sacrifice your damage output. If you want skill X, you may not be able to get skill Y. You can no longer have the toolbox fully open all the time, but I would argue that what is in the toolbox is now a lot more interesting.

Some will put all their points in their primary spec, and only the remaining in an off-spec. Others will diversify a bit more, perhaps to get Heartseeker and Rain of Thorns for some extra damage and crowd control, leaving quite a few possibilities for different styles of play. Beta players provided a lot of feedback that resulted in skills being added back to the main pool, switched or changed as spec bonuses, and moved around on the trees to make some more desirable ones easier to access (For example, I and others argued for the Captain Marks skills to be moved from tier 3 to tier 2, and RockX did this).

An MMO is a work in progress, however, and there are certainly bugs to iron out, and certain things that both we and the devs wanted that will not make it in time for launch. There will undoubtedly be many hotfixes, patches, and updates to further refine and improve the class experience, and part of that will be based on our feedback in beta and on live. Think back to previous updates, like Mounted Combat, and how they have changed and improved from their initial concept.

All of the above said, I would caution players from relying too heavily on other people's comments to see whether or not they'll like the changes. Someone might hate it, and you might love it, or vice-versa. It reminds me of the many times I've seen movie reviews in newspapers, and more often than not a certain reviewer will slate films I end up loving, and applaud films I find uninteresting. Try them out for yourself, and give them a fair chance. Different doesn't necessarily mean good or bad. Until launch day, consider checking out the class change summaries to better familiarise yourself with some of the changes (though bear in mind some things may change before the 18th).

-Bel

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Originally Posted by Wilkor

What has happened is that minstrels have managed to delude themselves thanks to previous poor changes that they should be unkillable death machines who can faceroll everything in their path because damnit skill is for other people. WRONG. We have light armour so yes, you get hit as a mini, you go down like a sack of potatos. Get rid of this godmode complex and realise that tougher people should be taking the hits and your heals and buffs are meant for them. Ironically this means you might have to group up in a MMO.

As for DPS, again, minstels deluded into thinking they should be doing everything and all roles revolve around them. Minstrels are not a dps class, other classes are. We have our roles, they have theirs.

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Perhaps some other things happened during these changes? Like idk, new class - RK, which can both dps or heal top notch? Support classes becoming dpsers or healers? Groups prefering cappy over mini for many instances? Solo content that requires dps but doesn't allow to heal NPCs like in upcoming Big Battles?

So have fun being the only class pigeon holed into one role while every other can fill at least two. Good luck telling blue champs they cannot tank or every other class they cannot be dps. Use your brain power. When you give up heals, you have to gain SOMETHING in return and that should be competetive dps while still having weak armor.

As for me, i'm already kinda set to go back to another deluded MMO, where healing classes have a choice: either healing power or fantastic dps and no one's rolling their eyes. You're probably gona say Tolkien was deluded too since minis in his world did great things against their foes with power of their voice. Tom Bombadil is first that comes to mind but there's more.

But yes, keep living in the bubble and like its 2007.

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Originally Posted by Jamesm429

Most of the beta testers that did not like what was being forced on us were told, too bad nothing is changing, its coming if you like it or not, have left.

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Ok just replying based on this little tidbit of mis-information.

Most of the players who left valued feedback and the class threads were listened to and tons of changes were made.
Most of the players who posted rage quit threads in beta were told that the changes were coming and were asked to offer feedback

We were told the trees were coming and were not going to be removed. We were NEVER told Nothing is changing. Many many things were changed based on player feedback from the class threads.




Now for my personal views.

1. Quest and landscape. Awesome
2. Skill trees... Most people will be in shock but I believe that once they toy around with them they will enjoy them
3. Epic Battles.. I feel still needs a bit of polishing but can see how at first they are frustrating but once you start expanding the role within Epic Battles they become a challenge and can be quite fun.

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Originally Posted by Belnavar

All of the above said, I would caution players from relying too heavily on other people's comments to see whether or not they'll like the changes. Someone might hate it, and you might love it, or vice-versa. It reminds me of the many times I've seen movie reviews in newspapers, and more often than not a certain reviewer will slate films I end up loving, and applaud films I find uninteresting. Try them out for yourself, and give them a fair chance. Different doesn't necessarily mean good or bad. Until launch day, consider checking out the class change summaries to better familiarise yourself with some of the changes (though bear in mind some things may change before the 18th).

-Bel

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I think this is an excellent summary.

But this is also the reason that, for those who haven't preordered, I would say to them still to not pre-order at all simply because the changes are too sweeping and it may end up being a large waste of money for you. If you like the changes after playing them, then by all means, buy the expansion pack.

BTW, I know the changes are coming whether you buy it or not, but why buy something you do not like, right? :)

I am wondering why they have spent the last couple of years making this into a 'solo-friendly' game, and are now pushing our classes into more grouping roles without developing grouping content? Or am I completely off here? *confused*

Sorry - but I've hated the changes to class skills since I saw them, tried to petition and commented to have things changed and there was a resounding "no" since I've seen them until now.

Sure... rosy specs ppl will tell you that MANY changes have been made, but it's really not worth a thing if you hate the principle of the system. No changing gear or stance in combat (which makes a lot of older content difficult) and issues with losing skills that allowed you to adapt in group situations (or even solo if you made a bad pull).

BB are ok... took me a long time to get used to them, and they are novel - but the random loot system is a big fat lose for me, given how loot is already rare and random and frankly I don't find spinning the wheel of fortune enjoyable.

I'd say that the usual suspects will continue to tell you that everything is fine, you'll love it. People like myself will not like it and will stop playing as a result.

Which ever way you fall, I wish you luck and success in the future.

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Originally Posted by Zombielord

Fighting side by side with a lvl 10 character who had the stats on his/her gear increased to level 95 and still trying to figure out how to play Lotro is hardly something I would call endgame ...

Yes they are loud, they are hectic and once you see that group of uruks slowly moving then charging into battle it does get the feeling right, but bottom line is they're not fun to play.

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I wouldnt call it endgame either but thats exactly what it is.

AS for the Loud and hectic I would respectfully disagree there, standing around waiting for orcs to "load" after they get to the top of the wall before they do anything is not hectic, waiting for 1/2 minute while a group of tiny, clones move towards me in a perfect matrix is not hectic.

I dunno maybe I am being to harsh but the picture I have in my head when I read Tolkiens version of HD, is Thunder cracks and lightning flashes, chaos, disorganisation, panic, constant, relentless orcs, breathlesness , desperation, followed by Valour, courage, Relief, exhaustion. I got none of that I am sad to say, like I said before it was slow, clunky, predictable, and way way to easy, for me they dont feel epic in the slightest, a complete wet lettuce that will turn into a dire grind after playing through each battle once.

During BETA I had to force myself to replay them just for testing purposes, I found no enjoyment in them and was glad when they were taken down so I didnt feel obligated to join in the testing anymore, for anyone who got bored quickly with Hytbold or Wildermore I cant see how these will appeal to you at all.

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Originally Posted by Belnavar

This forces you to try a different style of play, and you may find that you like one of the three main styles per class more than the others, or you might like to alternate between them all, or specifically cater a style and build to the content you are facing. The choices are there, and I would argue that there are more choices in Helm's Deep, and that those choices are much more meaningful.

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What choices? What different playstyle?

Traiting outside the trees and trying to go hybrid (and get at least a tiny bit of diversity back) costs twice as many points and considering how few points my characters had even at 85 we're caught in the tree we picked.

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Originally Posted by Belnavar

Regarding the class changes, we are losing some versatility, but we are gaining distinction. By this I mean that when you switch from one trait tree to another, it isn't simply a matter of a handful of bonuses and maybe a capstone, but rather a significant change to how you play the class. Several skills are gated by trait trees, and several others are found in the trait trees themselves, some easy to acquire at lower ranks (making them accessible to hybrids) and others much deeper in, requiring specialisation.

(...)

-Bel

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If I want a massive change to my playing-style I play another class. You can do this already with the current system. But limiting my choices (at a time, at least until I leave combat-mode) on one class and labeling this 'distinction' are quite rosy sunglasses (sorry if this picture doesn't translate well - no native speaker). I am not able to play the class I learned to love anymore, period. Any workaround is just that - a way to experience the lore I also love someway further down the road.

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Originally Posted by kickman77

Ok just replying based on this little tidbit of mis-information.

Most of the players who left valued feedback and the class threads were listened to and tons of changes were made.
Most of the players who posted rage quit threads in beta were told that the changes were coming and were asked to offer feedback

We were told the trees were coming and were not going to be removed. We were NEVER told Nothing is changing. Many many things were changed based on player feedback from the class threads.




Now for my personal views.

1. Quest and landscape. Awesome
2. Skill trees... Most people will be in shock but I believe that once they toy around with them they will enjoy them
3. Epic Battles.. I feel still needs a bit of polishing but can see how at first they are frustrating but once you start expanding the role within Epic Battles they become a challenge and can be quite fun.

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I guess you don't play a mini, because little has been done to the mini class..

Can someone tell me 2 things?

Did they take off dazes and stuns from LM's? I don't see any daze/stun mentions?

Is there anything to actually cc HD(Big battles)? I love my lm and i want to be able to still do lots of things (healing/dpsing/ccing, ofc with the tree traits we can't do all that at the same level i think, but anyway) but cc was the reason i chose a loremaster to lvl and play endgame content.

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Originally Posted by Wilkor

Just going to address this part and it sounds like the developer has their head screwed on right regarding the mini in this aspect. What has happened is that minstrels have managed to delude themselves thanks to previous poor changes that they should be unkillable death machines who can faceroll everything in their path because damnit skill is for other people. WRONG. We have light armour so yes, you get hit as a mini, you go down like a sack of potatos. Get rid of this godmode complex and realise that tougher people should be taking the hits and your heals and buffs are meant for them. Ironically this means you might have to group up in a MMO.

As for DPS, again, minstels deluded into thinking they should be doing everything and all roles revolve around them. Minstrels are not a dps class, other classes are. We have our roles, they have theirs.

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I found this insulting and ignorant. We are not asking for godmode, we are asking for "SUFFICIENT DPS FOR THE DEDICATED TREE FOR DPS" while having MINIMUM SURVIVABILITY. Since now EVERY SINGLE CLASS HAS A DPS TREE, good luck telling all other classes such as captains, guardians, lore-masters, burglars, and wardens NOT TO DPS since it's not their """"MAIN-ROLE""" to DPS too.

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Originally Posted by KrauserJoestar

Can someone tell me 2 things?

Did they take off dazes and stuns from LM's? I don't see any daze/stun mentions?

Is there anything to actually cc HD(Big battles)? I love my lm and i want to be able to still do lots of things (healing/dpsing/ccing, ofc with the tree traits we can't do all that at the same level i think, but anyway) but cc was the reason i chose a loremaster to lvl and play endgame content.

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In BB, your class skills are really not used at all, sorry.

As many have said before:

Class changes

Interesting and unique. It needs a lot of patience to get used to all of the existing classes. Forget what you played for over 5 years now. They are gone and different. Some for the good and (in my personal view) many for the bad. But this is my POV. The best thing the class revamps will bring are the new battle animations. These are really cool. But in the end even the best and coolest animation will not help you if the essential skills are no longer at your disposal. The probably worst thing I have to mention is that the nonsense skills like "Boast" are still allowed to exist when the intention was to free up skill bars from unuseful skills.
Btw. Say goodbye to many Legacies and LIs you have farmed for. Due to Skill tree locks and new skills the existing LIs will mostly be irrelevant.

In the end. give them a chance and decide for yourself if you want to play your character in the future and can live with the severe changes.


Big Battles and HD
The intention was to invent sth. new and cool. They are cool on the paper but I did not enjoy them since they are simply overwhelming and very confusing. Are Endgame raiding kins going to be happy? No, probably not. It is something very different than Raids, Instances and Skirmishes, but if you want to compare Big Battles, Skirmishes are the most close relavites - scripted and designed. Personally, I won't invest much time in them - probably play once in a while when I am bored.


Again, these are my opinions and what I could draw as a conclusion for my future gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Isilmacil

Platinum rewards for the side objectives in solo spaces? Yes

Platinum medal for the entire battle solo? Not happening. That can only be done in the group settings.

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This is incorrect. It's possible to get an overall Platinum medal in the solo battles. It's just difficult, which is something that hasn't really been seen with solo content in the past. I find it a refreshing change, but YMMV.

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Originally Posted by Peresbert

Now, Big Battles. This may be the breaking point for LotRO. You must complete the Big Battle tutorial. If you do not, you will break your keyboard and rage quit on the spot. They are fun, challenging, and have something for everyone. You can be an Engineer and set up weapons to kill scores of enemies while being able to repair the walls, banners and weapons. You can be an Officer and direct the Rohirrim in battle. You can even be a Vanguard and fight with the Rohirrim to kill anyone who tries to breach the lines. Use all points you get wisely. It will take a few Big Battles before you will get a handle on it and then you shall succeed. And yes, the "Raid" is hard.

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I'll second the advice about the tutorials. There are a lot of totally new mechanics to get used to.

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The bug reports are higher than I have ever seen them in a successful BETA at this point before launch that I have participated in before (talking mostly about other games).

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Oh, really? You have access to their bug tracking software?

Helm's Deep is nowhere near as buggy as Riders of Rohan was this close to release. Fact.

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Originally Posted by kickman77

Ok just replying based on this little tidbit of mis-information.

Most of the players who left valued feedback and the class threads were listened to and tons of changes were made.
Most of the players who posted rage quit threads in beta were told that the changes were coming and were asked to offer feedback

We were told the trees were coming and were not going to be removed. We were NEVER told Nothing is changing. Many many things were changed based on player feedback from the class threads.

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Exactly. All of the feedback is listened to. Listening to feedback does not mean "do what I say". The beta testers using that definition of feedback have been disappointed. The rest of us have been pretty well satisfied.

People who play a 'Hybrid' class will be in for a shock. You can play This way OR That way - pretty much doing This AND That has been done away with. If STrait Tree points are changed then it would be easier to do....as it stands now all classes are locked into one of three cookie-cutter builds.

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Originally Posted by KrauserJoestar

Can someone tell me 2 things?

Did they take off dazes and stuns from LM's? I don't see any daze/stun mentions?

Is there anything to actually cc HD(Big battles)? I love my lm and i want to be able to still do lots of things (healing/dpsing/ccing, ofc with the tree traits we can't do all that at the same level i think, but anyway) but cc was the reason i chose a loremaster to lvl and play endgame content.

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There isnt any cc, nor tanking nor healing in the big battles, its all dps and the 3 roles that you do. I am sure if you really wanted to you could do come cc, but there is really no need at all and you will quickly just go full dps to get them done quicker.

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Originally Posted by Jamesm429

In BB, your class skills are really not used at all, sorry.

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That's very sad to hear.

Regardless, do LM's still have Blinding flash/Bane Flare or are they gone? Can anyone tell me?