Runekeeper healing

Hey All,

There are a few changes in the works but that one that I will discuss with you right now relates to BI. BI will be keeping its functionality of an expiration heal but its duration will be increased. In turn, we are playing with various different trigger skills ( I know some people are not a fan of this from this thread). We have multiple options on the table of what this trigger skill will be, whether it's a smaller heal that triggers the expiration or a WF like buff. I know a lot of people were big fans of TWDNKU but design wise we had a lot of potential problems with that skill in certain content situations.

-Jinjaah

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Originally Posted by Jinjaah

Hey All,

There are a few changes in the works but that one that I will discuss with you right now relates to BI. BI will be keeping its functionality of an expiration heal but its duration will be increased. In turn, we are playing with various different trigger skills ( I know some people are not a fan of this from this thread). We have multiple options on the table of what this trigger skill will be, whether it's a smaller heal that triggers the expiration or a WF like buff. I know a lot of people were big fans of TWDNKU but design wise we had a lot of potential problems with that skill in certain content situations.

-Jinjaah

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So he's totally like the State Farm guy, just mention the name and he shows up!

:)

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Originally Posted by Ghosttaker

So he's totally like the State Farm guy, just mention the name and he shows up!

:)

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Haha, I may or may not have been lurking for some time now...

One thing we have considered with the trigger and BI is to work some of the incoming healing and/or damage reduction into Words of Exaltation (with reduced potency for Essay of Exaltation) instead of a new skill. So WoE would be able to trigger BI on your target with incoming healing which would increase the expiration heal of BI. This would allow you to throw it on a tank if he gets hit hard, bubble him and heal him, giving you time to react. We are still playing with other triggers, but a enw heal that triggers a expiration heal seems like overkill. Feel free to leave some comments on what you all think.

-Jinjaah

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Originally Posted by Jinjaah

Hey All,

There are a few changes in the works but that one that I will discuss with you right now relates to BI. BI will be keeping its functionality of an expiration heal but its duration will be increased. In turn, we are playing with various different trigger skills ( I know some people are not a fan of this from this thread). We have multiple options on the table of what this trigger skill will be, whether it's a smaller heal that triggers the expiration or a WF like buff. I know a lot of people were big fans of TWDNKU but design wise we had a lot of potential problems with that skill in certain content situations.

-Jinjaah

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Maybe if the trigger skill could cancel the BI big heal but while BI is active it adds tiers every 2 seconds. So if the duration is now 12 seconds, if you trigger the new skill at 10 seconds you would consume the 5 tiers of BI and the new skill could heal based upon that AND give you a similar effect like WF. I like WF and think it should def come back. So maybe have the big heal be like 50% at tier 1 of BI and increases up 7.5% ever additional tier... so if you use the new WF trigger it would only give you an instant heal of the magnitude of the tier of BI you currently have on that toon.

Along with the moderate decrease in the heal for an early trigger, the new skill could give the damage reduction like WF. That would help prevent further damage spikes on the tank while also giving time for the RK to bubble the tank and stack up huge HoTs and heals on the tank until they are back on their feet. Just some further thoughts now that we know that BF is staying with a possible trigger skill.

EDIT: Further thoughts I have is maybe if BI expires on its own it would give the player a buff of 50% damage reduction but if the RK triggers the new skill it is only a 25% damage reduction and would increase by 2.5% per tier of BI expended.

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Originally Posted by papafhill1

Maybe if the trigger skill could cancel the BI big heal but while BI is active it adds tiers every 2 seconds. So if the duration is now 12 seconds, if you trigger the new skill at 10 seconds you would consume the 5 tiers of BI and the new skill could heal based upon that AND give you a similar effect like WF. I like WF and think it should def come back. So maybe have the big heal be like 50% at tier 1 of BI and increases up 7.5% ever additional tier... so if you use the new WF trigger it would only give you an instant heal of the magnitude of the tier of BI you currently have on that toon.

Along with the moderate decrease in the heal for an early trigger, the new skill could give the damage reduction like WF. That would help prevent further damage spikes on the tank while also giving time for the RK to bubble the tank and stack up huge HoTs and heals on the tank until they are back on their feet. Just some further thoughts now that we know that BF is staying with a possible trigger skill.

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I might not understand all of what you are saying correctly here but it sounds extremely OP and overkill based on current content to do it this way. I like the old saving them from the brink of death with a reliable skill that allowed you to recover while feeding other group members at the same time. This feels like Minnie OPness. Healing should be reliable and effective but also take some skill imo. I feel like we've lost that in the game completely.

Edit: posted while you were editing apparently :) I like the edit, some give and take there.

While we are on the topic of BI, I would just like to endorse an idea that I read somewhere in the past month(s) (sorry, but I don't know when or where I read it, just that I remember it being a good idea).

Someone once mentioned the idea of revamping of BI so that it can be either a trigger or an expiration heal. For instance, lets say the trigger health on a target is 50% health. If someone has 80% health after the timer is up, BI would function normally and just apply its heal. However, if the target has been effected by BI for at least X seconds, and drops below that 50% health mark, then it would trigger a similar trigger heal. This heal would then ofc be influenced by the tier of BI and GF on the target.

I'm not a fan of having BI expiration give damage reduction. This would either mean having a 50% damage reduction on a 2 second cooldown, or making the cooldown on BI massive meaning we lose the only good thing about the current iteration of the skill, 3 healing attunement on the move. And it also wouldn't solve the problem where either people die cause the damage reduction comes in after even more than 8 seconds, or it's useless since you had to heal your target back up to full to prevent it from dying. You'd still have to perfectly predict when the damage is coming in (which on live we've basically proven we can't do consistently), but now from an even longer period of time ahead.

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Originally Posted by Ghosttaker

I might not understand all of what you are saying correctly here but it sounds extremely OP and overkill based on current content to do it this way. I like the old saving them from the brink of death with a reliable skill that allowed you to recover while feeding other group members at the same time. This feels like Minnie OPness. Healing should be reliable and effective but also take some skill imo. I feel like we've lost that in the game completely.

Edit: posted while you were editing apparently :) I like the edit, some give and take there.

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Oh yea the numbers I posted are obviously way out of balance and I want it to still be challenging to be a healer (as it should be) but I feel like a damage reduction of some kind would be nice and a tiered system would give the player more control over the situation. Do they want more heal and damage reduction for waiting an extra 2 seconds or do they want to expend the tiers right away. That split second decision might save your tank or wipe your team.

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Originally Posted by Jinjaah

Haha, I may or may not have been lurking for some time now...

One thing we have considered with the trigger and BI is to work some of the incoming healing and/or damage reduction into Words of Exaltation (with reduced potency for Essay of Exaltation) instead of a new skill. So WoE would be able to trigger BI on your target with incoming healing which would increase the expiration heal of BI. This would allow you to throw it on a tank if he gets hit hard, bubble him and heal him, giving you time to react. We are still playing with other triggers, but a enw heal that triggers a expiration heal seems like overkill. Feel free to leave some comments on what you all think.

-Jinjaah

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That would be nice. Have a weaker bubble on the tank but increase incoming healing and reduce damage so the bubble still stands a chance but also giving the tank more from the HoTs that are on them. I like this a lot but would it make the healer class too easy?

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Originally Posted by Jinjaah

Hey All,

There are a few changes in the works but that one that I will discuss with you right now relates to BI. BI will be keeping its functionality of an expiration heal but its duration will be increased. In turn, we are playing with various different trigger skills ( I know some people are not a fan of this from this thread). We have multiple options on the table of what this trigger skill will be, whether it's a smaller heal that triggers the expiration or a WF like buff. I know a lot of people were big fans of TWDNKU but design wise we had a lot of potential problems with that skill in certain content situations.

-Jinjaah

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......./cry

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Originally Posted by Jinjaah

Haha, I may or may not have been lurking for some time now...

One thing we have considered with the trigger and BI is to work some of the incoming healing and/or damage reduction into Words of Exaltation (with reduced potency for Essay of Exaltation) instead of a new skill. So WoE would be able to trigger BI on your target with incoming healing which would increase the expiration heal of BI. This would allow you to throw it on a tank if he gets hit hard, bubble him and heal him, giving you time to react. We are still playing with other triggers, but a enw heal that triggers a expiration heal seems like overkill. Feel free to leave some comments on what you all think.

-Jinjaah

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I don't think that will make the expiration heal any more effective, but turns BI in something to buff your bubbles with, the issue with the expiration heal is that it comes either too late, or goes to waste because the player is already at full morale when it expires. This was the reason for a suggestion for a manual/automatic trigger.
I do not really like the idea of manually triggering it though, makes the healing too reactive (don't forget that the core of RK healing is it's pro-active approach).
For an automatic trigger, letting it trigger if a bubble gets destroyed might work.

Something I suggested earlier is to make BI no longer tier up, but actually stack, so it'll always apply the burst 8 seconds after applying it, even if you use it again on the same target within that time, but that would still not make it capstone worthy in my opinion (but it's good as a deep trait). Stacking BI would than allow you to let a constant stream of expiration heals coming in, but changing the target would take some time, it's than basically a reversed MV.

Wondrous Foreshadowing would make a good capstone, as was brought up by others.

EDIT, seems I understood that a bit wrong, interpreted it as an alternate thing to a trigger, not something that came along with it. The point that I don't like the bubble turning into something reactive is still the same though.

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Originally Posted by Nouri

......./cry

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Why you crying?

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Originally Posted by papafhill1

why you crying?

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RiP TWDNKU :(

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Originally Posted by papafhill1

That would be nice. Have a weaker bubble on the tank but increase incoming healing and reduce damage so the bubble still stands a chance but also giving the tank more from the HoTs that are on them. I like this a lot but would it make the healer class too easy?

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You could certainly use the bubble in that situation for the incoming healing buff to raise your overall HPS on your HoTs. I think though the real power would come from getting the ability to control in a tight situation when the BI expiration heal would occur. Saving WoE bubble or a new variation of WF for when/if spike damage came to the tank would be a nice stop gap to help heal your tank back up or protect the tank while you help heal up your fellowship/raid.

I know some people don't like the reactive play of that in the playstyle of the RK, but I don't think this kill the pro-active approach, it more or less just gives the RK one ability to deal with a sharp spike when it happens.

-Jinjaah

I don't see why people don't like the WoE as a trigger? I mean it is a really good solution. You get a bubble on the tank with a moderate heal and an increase in healing and damage reduction. This all means you won't over heal with BI, you get a manual trigger that gives you a choice in when to react to the spike damage, and the bubble doesn't interfere with the HoTs as the current BI does. It seems like a win all around.

I just wonder why EoE is going to get nerfed? That's my only drawback. I mean I think WoE should get nerfed, especially if the inc heal/dmg reduct is inherent in the initial skill so that all the trait lines can use this benefit. I'd like to see all traitlines have this benefit but that might be OP.

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Originally Posted by papafhill1

I don't see why people don't like the WoE as a trigger? I mean it is a really good solution. You get a bubble on the tank with a moderate heal and an increase in healing and damage reduction. This all means you won't over heal with BI, you get a manual trigger that gives you a choice in when to react to the spike damage, and the bubble doesn't interfere with the HoTs as the current BI does. It seems like a win all around.

I just wonder why EoE is going to get nerfed? That's my only drawback. I mean I think WoE should get nerfed, especially if the inc heal/dmg reduct is inherent in the initial skill so that all the trait lines can use this benefit. I'd like to see all traitlines have this benefit but that might be OP.

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This would be a trait that is deep in the healing line and I think its fair to keep it there. I might have wrote it in a confusing way but I didn't mean to come across as saying that EoE would be nerfed, just that if it applied incoming healing (I think damage reduction would be too powerful without cooldown adjustments) like WoE, it would provide reduced amounts since its is an area effect that could potentially trigger multiple BI's that are out on fellowship members and allies.

EDIT: Or WoE would be the only way to trigger it and EoE would just provide inc. healing.

-Jinjaah

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Originally Posted by Nouri

I think WF would make a great capstone skill. It was one of the most useful, difference-making skills RKs ever had, and in the way it worked, it was the embodiment of the RK style of healing. As for BI? You could put as many accessories on a Yugo as you want and try to turn it into something else, and it would still be a Yugo.

(dating myself here)

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Respect for the Yugo reference.

-Jinjaah

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Originally Posted by Jinjaah

This would be a trait that is deep in the healing line and I think its fair to keep it there. I might have wrote it in a confusing way but I didn't mean to come across as saying that EoE would be nerfed, just that if it applied incoming healing (I think damage reduction would be too powerful without cooldown adjustments) like WoE, it would provide reduced amounts since its is an area effect that could potentially trigger multiple BI's that are out on fellowship members and allies.

EDIT: Or WoE would be the only way to trigger it and EoE would just provide inc. healing.

-Jinjaah

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Oh truth, thats not bad.

Has anyone brought up maybe having a skill that would auto trigger a bubble and inc healing and bi if current HP drops by 40% or so? So if for some reason you get spike damage for only 39% and then get a few more smaller hits quickly, at about 30% of HP if you get hit again for about 12% of your max HP it would trigger the bubble and other buffs to help rescue the player? It would be a proactive buff that needs to be placed on the tank before the spike damage happens... just another idea i'm throwing out there. I don't expect my ideas to be great but they might help someone else come up with something great!

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Originally Posted by Jinjaah

Respect for the Yugo reference

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Some lessons in life I've had to learn the hard way :)

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Originally Posted by Jinjaah

Haha, I may or may not have been lurking for some time now...

One thing we have considered with the trigger and BI is to work some of the incoming healing and/or damage reduction into Words of Exaltation (with reduced potency for Essay of Exaltation) instead of a new skill. So WoE would be able to trigger BI on your target with incoming healing which would increase the expiration heal of BI. This would allow you to throw it on a tank if he gets hit hard, bubble him and heal him, giving you time to react. We are still playing with other triggers, but a enw heal that triggers a expiration heal seems like overkill. Feel free to leave some comments on what you all think.

-Jinjaah

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So, I'm not against this, however -- it sounds like there's no real fix to BI or any fix to address the expiration heal concerns. It more or less sounds like BI remains as is, with, possibly, a longer duration hot as you previously mentioned. The big change is the re-introduction of WF-like components (incoming healing buff & reduced inc dmg buff) to WoE and possibly EoE that will enhance BI's hot/heal functionality along with our other skills, while leaving BI itself remain as is.
Or do you mean that WoE would only have that buff if BI was on target, in which case, that still doesn't do anything to BI itself other than enhance the hots on the target? I'm confused, or maybe it's just been a long day.

Either way, I'm glad to see you guys are considering re-introducing WF in some form or another. It was an excellent skill, and one of the most disappointing to see eliminated entirely. Have you thought about just re-adding the skill entirely (not at the expense of BI or mobility, please -- I will live with BI completely as is if WF is re-added into the game), but possibly increasing the CD? Traited & with proper legacy, it used to have something like a 38second CD which was ridiculously OP.
If WF isn't added as a new skill, but is added in some form to WoE/EoE (reduced version for EoE), will it be at the expense of the morale bubble component of both of those skills?

Edit: Actually, it's been awhile, but it may have been that WF could last up to 38ish seconds (with hot legacy/WoH buff) out of every 1 minute. It's been well over a year since I used that skill, though. I was on hiatus for most of 2013.

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Originally Posted by Thymelody

So, I'm not against this, however -- it sounds like there's no real fix to BI or any fix to address the expiration heal concerns. It more or less sounds like BI remains as is, with, possibly, a longer duration hot as you previously mentioned. The big change is the re-introduction of WF-like components (incoming healing buff & reduced inc dmg buff) to WoE and possibly EoE that will enhance BI's hot/heal functionality along with our other skills, while leaving BI itself remain as is.
Or do you mean that WoE would only have that buff if BI was on target, in which case, that still doesn't do anything to BI itself other than enhance the hots on the target? I'm confused, or maybe it's just been a long day.

Either way, I'm glad to see you guys are considering re-introducing WF in some form or another. It was an excellent skill, and one of the most disappointing to see eliminated entirely. Have you thought about just re-adding the skill entirely (not at the expense of BI or mobility, please -- I will live with BI completely as is if WF is re-added into the game), but possibly increasing the CD? Traited & with proper legacy, it used to have something like a 38second CD which was ridiculously OP.
If WF isn't added as a new skill, but is added in some form to WoE/EoE (reduced version for EoE), will it be at the expense of the morale bubble component of both of those skills?

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That option is certainly still on the table but the buff would be reduced based on the introduction of frost armour and the inc. healing on Writ of Health.

The option I mentioned before was that this would add an inc. healing buff to your bubbles that in addition would trigger the expiration heal of BI on a target.

-Jinjaah

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Originally Posted by Jinjaah

This would be a trait that is deep in the healing line and I think its fair to keep it there. I might have wrote it in a confusing way but I didn't mean to come across as saying that EoE would be nerfed, just that if it applied incoming healing (I think damage reduction would be too powerful without cooldown adjustments) like WoE, it would provide reduced amounts since its is an area effect that could potentially trigger multiple BI's that are out on fellowship members and allies.

EDIT: Or WoE would be the only way to trigger it and EoE would just provide inc. healing.

-Jinjaah

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I am glad BI will get a trigger! I like the edit statement best here. I would rather have WoE as the only trigger. BI may not be WF but BI and WoE are usable while moving while EoE requires a kite pause and ground targeting. Most situations that I can think of where I would want BI to trigger early are single target heals not aoe. When in blue line, I tend to hold back WoE as emergency skill now rather than EoE. I use EoE more often and I am not sure I would want multiple BI triggers set off on fellowship members that don't need it. For group heals I would prefer EoE (with new inc healing buff?) followed by RW or EftA.

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Originally Posted by Jinjaah

That option is certainly still on the table but the buff would be reduced based on the introduction of frost armour and the inc. healing on Writ of Health.

The option I mentioned before was that this would add an inc. healing buff to your bubbles that in addition would trigger the expiration heal of BI on a target.

-Jinjaah

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Re. WF - That's fair. I hope WF does make an appearance again, even if it's just added as a significantly reduced potency to WoE or EoE rather than a new skill.

Your clarification on BI helps and makes far more sense now. I'm not against the idea, nor against using WoE/EoE as the trigger for the expiration heal. Sounds very reasonable, certainly more appealing than what it is now. How are you & Egg coming along on finding a fix for the awful delay after BI use? I think you mentioned some weeks ago you guys are aware of the issue.

Please also consider discussing with us (maybe not today, or tomorrow, this week, or next week, but some time in the coming weeks):

1. Changes to EftA (I hope you've scrapped the cashout idea, unless there's other changes here you're planning on mentioning in the coming weeks). Will you reconsider re-adding the splash aoe skill automatically, rather than having it crit dependent? Or, as Leixy mentioned earlier in this thread (I think), have the crit % of EftA increase depending on the WoH tier on the targets impacted.
2. Changes to Fates Entwined Rock (+toughness , shorter CD or just restore AFE to what it was...)
3. Mending Verse
4. Rallying Verse Trait

Basically, just post every last idea on the RK dev table with us prior to Update 14 so we can discuss at will. Lol :D Patience is never a virtue I've possessed or slotted.

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Originally Posted by Thymelody

Re. WF - That's fair. I hope WF does make an appearance again, even if it's just added as a significantly reduced potency to WoE or EoE rather than a new skill.

Your clarification on BI helps and makes far more sense now. I'm not against the idea, nor against using WoE/EoE as the trigger for the expiration heal. Sounds very reasonable, certainly more appealing than what it is now. How are you & Egg coming along on finding a fix for the awful delay after BI use? I think you mentioned some weeks ago you guys are aware of the issue.

Please also consider discussing with us (maybe not today, or tomorrow, this week, or next week, but some time in the coming weeks):

1. Changes to EftA (I hope you've scrapped the cashout idea, unless there's other changes here you're planning on mentioning in the coming weeks). Will you reconsider re-adding the splash aoe skill automatically, rather than having it crit dependent? Or, as Leixy mentioned earlier in this thread (I think), have the crit % of EftA increase depending on the WoH tier on the targets impacted.
2. Changes to Fates Entwined Rock (+toughness , shorter CD or just restore AFE to what it was...)
3. Mending Verse
4. Rallying Verse Trait

Basically, just post every last idea on the RK dev table with us prior to Update 14 so we can discuss at will. Lol :D Patience is never a virtue I've possessed or slotted.

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- Egg and I have figured out the strange delay but the fix is not simple. I am going to play around with some potential fixes but I can't guarantee anything.

Sure I will open the floor to the good old round table. Here are some things that are on the table for u14, please remember these are subject to changes/alterations based on our testing.
1. No real changes coming at the moment. The splash heal idea is certainly on the table, but I prefer to see how this discussion with BI shakes out before we commit. I do think the induction or cooldown could be adjusted too in the future.
2. Our Fate's Entwined runestone has been put through a heavy workout regiment with Ronnie Coleman and is greatly increased his toughness. He will now not die from damage going forward. It's to the point where I just can't look that runestone in the eye any longer...
3. Mending verse has some changes coming but unsure what the final result is. Right now the plan is to break out Prophetic Word into 2 traits. One that will have 3 ranks to give you the 30% bonus healing. Then another 3 rank trait that will add a pulse to mending verse with the max rank reducing the induction by 1 second and possibly, POSSIBLY, removing the 1 second cooldown from the skill (The cooldown is up in the air).
4. Rallying Verse and Self Esteem are not really going to be touched next update. They are two traits that don't really excite me as much as others. I would like to, and this is down the road, integrate frost into the healing tree a lot more. These traits mentioned would most likely be re-purposed to make room for that.

EDIT: That list is in relation to your questions, not the only u14 changes on the table.

-Jinjaah

As far as EFtA, is it too hard to have the cd reduction tied to attunement? If that change even makes it of course and since you're definitely, absolutely removing the cd from MV I thought I would at least ask.

Thumbs up to control on the expiration heal for BI.

Skill lag on BI, is the difficulty in removing that the same for other skills that have the same problem?

Any mobility changes, or changes to other lines coming?