Captain tanking needs a nerf!

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

Losing the will to keep responding to you as you just continually spout nonsense. Captain skills don't matter when you press them? Okay... Next T5 Remm I run I am going to pop every single skill on my bar the moment the fight starts and then AFK. "Joedangod on the forums said that's all I have to do" will be my excuse when we wipe 40 seconds later because I wasn't rotating my defensives properly.

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You've only really got two that aren't 100% uptime and those aren't big enough magnitude to cause you to wipe. Just don't press the blue buttons and you're good. Pressing everything else off cooldown is perfectly fine. Yellow Captain has a whole lot of filler. Granted if you do go into that run please tell them that "Yellow Captain is a high skill ceiling specialisation". I think they could do with a laugh.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

They are not viable, hence why they are unable to complete the difficult content that currently exists. I don't understand how you can just ignore these glaring facts time and time again? And again, and again... And... Again.

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It's already been pointed out they're fine in Stairs. They're technically not going to struggle that much in Remmorchant, they can execute the tanking part reasonably well but people have this weird expectation that your tank should be able to halve the damage everyone receives during things like blood surge. Not that anyone is gonna try that out since Captain makes things so much easier and nobody really wants to put more effort into doing a run than they have to. Same reason why you won't really see anyone other than Captain boss tanking AD, it's not that they definitely can't...it's just people don't want to take anything less than the broken OP spec. Heh, block people from speccing yellow Captain and the progression race for T5 might even last longer than a day.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

Your suggestion is not to buff any tanks, but only nerf Captains, and that makes Chanks viable because Captains can then come into a raid as a blue-line healer and use its cooldowns on the Chank? lol. So your perfect world with nasty OP Captain tanks out of the equation sees all the other tank classes only viable if they rely on the tanking CDs of another class under the guise of Captains being accepted as healers but not tanks.

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Technically a yellow bear would also work for external defensives, yellow sacrifice being fairly powerful and all. But you know, heaven forbid healers use cooldowns on tanks to help them survive. We are totally better off just having tanks be entirely self sufficient and ensuring healers having nothing outside of rotational heals to bail tanks out in tricky situations. That scenario feels great for all involved!

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

[/I]There is absolutely no doubt that if they buffed ST healing and gave us a bubble in blue-line Captains would be the highest parsing and strongest healers of any class. I can already sustain 250-300k HPS and it peaks at nearly 400k in ideal scenarios. Clearly you're a main captain since you've shared so much rotational knowledge on these forums, and you already know this. So you're not advocating for turning Captain into the most OP healer instead of tank, are you?

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Yeah, I know that Blue Captain has the highest sustained AoE hps of any spec. I mentioned that earlier:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

It's not that blue captain is bad, in fact it's straight up the best healer for what it does (massive sustained AoE HPS). Yeah, the damage profile of content doesn't typically match that specialisation but giving them the strongest external defensive in the game for ST situations is a big ol' bump to viability. Most of the danger comes in a short window anyway so it...might make them a solid option?

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Have another post somewhere mentioning that their AoE healing does need some adjustments but you do get overly upset at the mention of the word "nerf" so I thought it would detract from the point at the time to go into detail about all the changes blue Captain probably requires. My bad I guess, although said changes likely mentioned removing revealing mark so you probably would've begun to froth at the mouth.


You know, I can't help but notice you didn't explain what these miracle buffs for all the other tanks that make them competitive with Captains would look like. Makes me wonder if you thought about what would be required to level the field...and realised that such buffs sounded utterly ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Depends in how you adjust them. Migrating shield of the dunedain over to blue and improving blues single target healing thus bringing it in line as a competitive healer would notably improve the viability of other tank specs. They do need to sort out the motivating speech issue, stripping it from blue/yellow and making it raidwide in red would probably work as a moderately effective band-aid solution until they can come up with something better that doesn't force you to absolutely need a Captain in every raid group. No class should be that singularly required after all.

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Firstly, your proposed "nerf" to yellow captain is a "buff" to blue line Captain (I thought you were against buffs?), secondly, this automatically invalidates either Beorning or Minstrel, neither of which can BE invalidated in group selection either, considering their offensive support is too great to lose.

Secondly the problem is also not just Motivating speech, it's the tactics buff, it's to arms, it's having two banners, it's having more rezzes, 2 Captains are the bedrock of any raid, and unless you plan to completely redesign the class from the ground upwards, this will not change.

Thirdly, it isn't the only class that has an absolute requirement in raids, Lore-Masters, YBurgs, and I would even argue now that a Beorning (due to the nature of their offensive support) are all required.

Lastly, you also just exacerbate the problem onto the Healers as well, whereby you now have 4 Healers (with RKs already struggling to even get taken for ANY role in the first place) competing for 2 spots, where 2 of those classes are still clearly the "right" choice, and you still have 5 tanks competing for 1 (ONE) spot.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Certainly Chank wouldn't be totally ok with that change alone. The spec is pretty messy all round and needs some trait adjustments but...it doesn't need random totally new powerful support abilities added. It's an aggressive tank built around managing defensive cooldowns, the fact that a few of them aren't quite potent enough to warrant the long cooldowns they currently have doesn't mean they should be getting totally unrelated buffs.

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"Aren't quite potent enough"? What dreamland are you living in, really? It does need new abilities, or the old ones need to be heavily reworked, the ONLY current cooldown that a Blue Champ has is Sudden Defence (and perhaps to an "extent" Adamant); the Dire Need heal, due to it's relation to power, is garbage, Unbreakable, is garbage, Fight On, is garbage, Bracing Attack, is garbage. The spec needs an entire overhaul.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

What do you even want to add to these other specs to make them compete with current yellow captain? You want to give Chanks a double rez? Give Beornings a raidwide version of sacrifice that just deletes incoming damage instead of redirecting? You're insisting that these specs would be fine if they were buffed but you don't seem to have any real clue would those buffs would look like. Some people are at least offering a solution that would result in tanks being on a more even footing but you're just waving your hands and saying there's a magic solution whilst being careful to never mention what that magic solution is.

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You are very narrow-minded in your approach to how you think other tanks should be buffed to be brought up to par with Captain, you focus simply on the Captain cooldowns as the "foundation" of your suggestions. Fundamentally content should be designed for two tanks; all tank classes should offer their own brand of support utility to the group whilst having sufficient enough defensive cooldowns.

Because of the way Captain is designed, at present, a YCaptain spot is non-negotiable (this is a product of the changes to Oathbreakers at 120 as well as the necessary requirement of having Motivation + Support Heals + Banners + More rezzes in both groups, it is not necessary to bring two red captains, so 1 red and 1 yellow is the approach).

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

You're insisting that these specs would be fine if they were buffed but you don't seem to have any real clue would those buffs would look like.

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I can offer you plenty of suggestions on what these buffs should look like, but based on your track record, none of them fit into "your" view of what a tank should be (an aggro-bot). So you'd discount them straight up anyway. *Shrugs*

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

The thing is...Captain is quite probably the cause of this bad design.

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In YOUR opinion, you don't know that, you can't know that. Nor does that change the fact the content IS poorly designed, it doesn't matter what the reasons are. The content is badly designed, THIS is the first problem stopping other tanks from getting into the content, the fact that the content itself doesn't allow them to.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Current yellow RK is moderately balanced.

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Lol, what? Being 30% behind every other DPS class and not being picked at all for end-game high-tier content, is, balanced?? Who knew.

Does this mean Guardians are balanced too? xD

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

You know, I can't help but notice you didn't explain what these miracle buffs for all the other tanks that make them competitive with Captains would look like. Makes me wonder if you thought about what would be required to level the field...and realised that such buffs sounded utterly ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

You're insisting that these specs would be fine if they were buffed but you don't seem to have any real clue would those buffs would look like.

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Ok.

Firstly, all raid based content needs to be designed so that you are REQUIRED to have two tanks, and there is a multitude of ways this can be done, twin fights that require targets to be separated, twin fights that debuff you to the other bosses damage (Boss 3 Anvil), requiring tank swapping due to some kind of stacking debuff/bleed, main boss + adds, or either by it not being possible to tank the main boss alone (Durchest threat mechanics come to mind).

Secondly, BPE needs to become relevant again, for ALL tanks.

Thirdly, the tactical mitigation cap should be more readily achievable, vitality should offer 1 point of tactical mitigation to all tank specs.

Lastly, mechanics, in any raid, should not be able to be completely ignored or bypassed by a tank (or by ANY class) using a "Cooldown" skill, that is garbage content design.

Without requiring two tanks, regardless of any changes you make to YCaptain, it will not remove the fact that one captain per group is "required", making them viable healers will either make a minstrel or a Beorning lose their spot, granted if Beornings become viable tanks you could drop the Beorning healer for an RK or Cappy anyway (it would have to be captain, again, for the buffs).

Morale:

In lieu of the fact that Captains get such a high passive morale % gain (even with a suggested 8% reduction), all Tank specialisations, bar Yellow Captain should have Vitality:Morale at 1:5. Captains should maintain their lower 1:4.5

Blue Guard:

• Blue Guardians is the only "Main tank" specialisation that doesn't offer a +% morale buff, this was in lieu of the fact that they are the only tank spec that gets such a high +% mitigation bonus. This was fine, when the trait trees were first introduced and the morale ceiling was much lower than it is today. Unfortunately, this is no longer the case, and as such they need a +10-15% morale bonus by being in Blue, and a +20% bonus for being in Yellow (as a result of forgoing fortification).
• Litany of Defiance, should, as it does now, redirect 50% of the fellowships taken damage to the Guardian, however, for every stack of fortification you have when you use LoD, you should negate 10% of said damage per stack (thus, redirecting 50% of the fellowships taken damage, and negating 50% of it).
• Litany of Defiance should also place a -20% incoming damage buff on the fellowship, (5s base duration, increased by 1s per stack of fortification).
• The fortification bonus applied to the fellowship should be increased to 5%, however, this should NOT stack with the Captains Herald of Hope 3% (+8% passive mitigation gain for the entire group, tanks included is too much).
• Shield wall should redirect all incoming damage to the Guardian as it does now, however, similarly to Litany, it should negate a certain % based on your stacks of fortification.
• Defensive Expertise should be +7.5% (up from 5%).
• Guardians Ward: Tactics should offer +% tactical mitigation (Perhaps +2-3%) rather than +x tactical mitigation rating.
• Combat state immunity should be stripped from Reversal.
• Disorientation reworked, so instead of reducing the targets B/P/E you reduce the targets armour value / or mitigation by -5%.
• Warriors Heart should offer a -20% incoming damage reduction for the entire duration of the skill not just for the length of the bubble.
• Break Ranks should be it's own skill and it should offer a 15% damage buff for 25s, with a 1m cooldown (mirroring Captains to Arms in some way).
• Bolstering Blocks should heal 2%.

Guardians main issue is they fail in providing any meaningful support (offensive or defensive), the suggested changes to disorientation, litany and break ranks will now mean they offer considerable support, offensively and defensively, that can now begin to rival a Captain, whilst also boosting them slightly defensively.

Wardens:

• Morale Taps and self HoTs should have their effectiveness increased by 25% (not final).
• Close Call should heal 2%.
• Revel in Combat should be reworked; instead, all defensive line gambit buffs used/active on the Warden should apply 50% of their effect to the fellowship. This would deal with one glaring issue facing Wardens, which is lack of defensive support.
• For every target affected by Conviction +2% damage buff to the fellowship (totalling at +12%).
• Counter-Attack should be extended to parry as well.
• Never Surrender should be reduced to 3m in Blue, it should also be reverted to its old version whereby it can prevent 1-shots.
• Fellowship Protector should apply a +1% mitigation buff to the Warden for every member of the fellowship affected by Conviction (totalling at 6%).
• Stand your Ground should increase your Block and Parry by 5% (up from 2%).
• Wardens NEED another cooldown skill of some kind, my suggestion would be a 100% evade buff for 15s with a 3min cooldown, also making them cc immune (mirroring Guardians Juggernaut).
• Restoration should be an AoE HoT.

Wardens lag behind in all areas, these changes allow Wardens to offer a wealth of defensive and offensive support to their group, whilst also making them much much sturdier with more self/group healing capabilities and an added cooldown.

Beorning:

• Counter should be a 20% evade chance.
• Worthy Adversary should also offer 10% crit defence along with it's other buffs.
• Down but not Out should offer a 50% morale heal (In man Form) if you drop below 10% Morale.
• All on the Line should redirect 40% and you should mitigate 30% (Up from 30% and 20% respectively).
• Recuperate should become an AoE HoT.
• Thickened Hide duration should be increased by +5s and the heal should also be increased to 2%.

Beornings already offer an absolute wealth of support (albeit offensive support rather than defensive), so unlike with Guardian and Warden, the goal here was to make them sturdier, I also never understood why Recuperate was only able to be used on the Beorning, this change will allow Beornings to more readily help another target with additional healing, and also potentially provide another heal for Yellow Beornings (which lack skills anyway).

Blue Champ:
I had already made a Blue Champ proposed rework thread on the bullroarer forums some time ago, so I'll just list the main changes below.

• Lower the cooldown of Challenge from 30 seconds to either 15 or 10 seconds.
• Increase Riposte Damage, by around 50%.
• Either, allow Riposte to be used without a parry response OR allow it to always critically hit, either change would help with threat.
• Masochism rework, increase the % chance for the effect to apply from 20% to 50%, but lower the reflect from 30% to 15%-10%, and make it generate more threat than it does currently.
• Bracing Against Defeat, make the trait transform Bracing Attack into a morale % based heal either 15% with a 30-second cooldown or 25% with a 1-minute cooldown either would work.
• Exalted Combatant, make this mirror down but not out on Beornings, so, something like 50% morale at 10-15% health?
• Quick with a Blade should make Merciful Strike apply a debuff to the target that increases incoming damage by 5-10%. Also transform the skill into a force taunt.
• Adamant has a way too short base duration, being only 10 seconds and max 15 with a legacy. The standard base duration should be increased by +5 seconds.
• Dire Need should be a flat 50% morale heal.
• Unbreakable should offer both Physical and Tactical mitigation percentage instead of only Tactical Mitigation rating (capping out at +10% phys/tact mit and +20% morale, 30s duration, 2min cooldown).
• Fear Nothing should have a base cooldown of 10s.
• In my opinion, Continuous Blood Rage makes no sense as a red trait, and it should be moved into Blue, which would significantly improve Blue Champs tanking against tactical opponents due to the increase in resistance. I would even go so far as to say as a result of this trade off CBR should also pick up one of its former effects whereby it costs morale to use (either in the form of a bleed or, using 1% morale per second).

These changes immediately deal with the fact that Champs are by far the weakest tanks, this allows them to retain their niche whilst also making them a viable choice based on the support they can provide (-% damage in Blade Wall, Champions Challenge and Horn of Champions, as well as an incoming damage buff attached to Merciful Strike).

Captain:
Contrary to belief, I have never been opposed to Captain nerfs, but, at the RIGHT time, and the RIGHT changes, as such my suggestions, are below.

• Reduce two-handed prowess morale % buff by 8-13%.
• Remove the force taunt from Blade of Elendil.
• Reduce the LS Heal to 10% (Absolutely get rid of the Remmo set bonus too).
• Reduce the muster self-heal by 50%. In fact, reduce all healing output from the Yellow Captain by 30-50%.
• Shield of the Dunedain should only be useable on another target.
• Revealing Mark needs a rework (I even said, during the Captain Revamp that this was going to be a bad change, and that people were not considering the long-term effects of our ever-increasing morale pools).

Such changes would effectively reduce the Captains survivability, especially their ability to "solo / self-heal" content, whilst not completely destroying their support.

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None of my suggested changes makes any of the other tanks god-mode, it also in facts brings Captains down to a very moderate level in relation to other tanks, none of the changes makes them mere copies of captains, they all retain their niche, and are true to their core trait lines. All I have done is attempted to make suggestions to make them sturdier where required as well as to make each tank offer their own individual support that makes them as viable as any other tank, however, I know you hate tanks that offer support and believe they should be aggro-bots, so, I doubt we'll ever agree anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kotal

i suppose people are missing the original point of this thread. i never said all the other tanks should stay as they are, only captain tanks need a nerf.
as a matter of fact, not only do i think the other tanks need serious buffs (with main priority on guard since they have nothing else than tanking... being a mediocre second choice doesn't help them at all), i also think that there needs to be a serious change in content, cause atm most boss fights just screw over the non cappy tanks with mechanics like tactical stuff that just ignores bpe to begin with and high mit debuffs, which hurt mitigation tanks much more than morale tanks, among other things.

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So you're saying:

1. No more tactical attacks from mobs
2. BPE should matter most
3. no mit debuffs during fights

Not with you. Why dumb the game down like this?

BPE should work and should work right, a BPE essence should be giving a person a good 1% or more per essence. And there should be no secret block activation that works for skills but doesn't actually block damage. But that seems to happen with guardian right now. If you want to disconnect block from skills then redo the class to depend on something else, or just make the skills active all the time, and give a cooldown only.

Mit debuffs should be removable with draughts or should be temporary enough to allow for someone to bubble you, not just deux x machina, that much I agree with. It's not a game if I can do nothing about it.

But tactical attacks are obviously not something someone can block, parry or evade. And they've always been part of the game. Maybe they need adjustment but not disappearance.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Firstly, your proposed "nerf" to yellow captain is a "buff" to blue line Captain (I thought you were against buffs?), secondly, this automatically invalidates either Beorning or Minstrel, neither of which can BE invalidated in group selection either, considering their offensive support is too great to lose.

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I've written so many posts where I point out that buffs/nerfs are just two ways to reach the same goal that it's getting tiring. I'm all about adjusting outliers to match the average. Yellow Captain far exceeds what everyone else can do therefore a nerf is what would result in it becoming balanced. If Yellow Captain was way behind the other tanks I would be suggesting buffs. Blue Beorning/Wardens/Guardians are all in roughly the same place, they are the metric I am using to determine what is and is not an outlier.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Nor does that change the fact the content IS poorly designed, it doesn't matter what the reasons are. The content is badly designed, THIS is the first problem stopping other tanks from getting into the content, the fact that the content itself doesn't allow them to.

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You can't complain about content and request content be changed whilst also advocating buffing specs up to match the content. I am aware that nerfing Captains down to a similar level as other tanks would make the current content more difficult, it wouldn't be impossible but it would be pretty rough. That rough period would only last until Gundabad though, new level cap means a fresh start to content design as you don't have to balance around busted outliers. Is it an imperfect solution? Yeah, but it's an imperfect world.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Lol, what? Being 30% behind every other DPS class and not being picked at all for end-game high-tier content, is, balanced?? Who knew.

Does this mean Guardians are balanced too? xD

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Read the rest of that paragraph in future. Yellow RK would be totally unbalanced if it pulled competitive DPS whilst maintaining that amount of support. They would effectively count for being 100% of a DPS spot...whilst offering 30% of a support specs power, effectively making them worth 1.3 spots in a raid group. You don't balance a specs power budget based on what it brings to a singular role, you balance what it brings to the group overall. If you bump a competitive DPS specs support value you must then nerf it's DPS so it doesn't exceed the value of other competitive DPS.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Blue Guard:

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Overall you want to give the tank that takes the least tactical damage...more tactical mitigation. Your shield wall change is funny because it guarantees two guardian tanks in all situations, they just shield wall each other and halve all incoming damage. Hooray. You complain about panic skills bypassing mechanics and then you suggest making warriors heart even stronger than it currently is despite the fact that it already operates as an effective recovery from a near death situation. You want litany to be a stronger group defensive cooldown than any healer has access to, yes it matches IHW/LS but whether or not Captains should even have IHW in its current state is contested. Your disorientation change is fine so long as it doesn't stack with other % phys mit reductions (which need to be lower) and your non-stacking fortification bonus is reasonable...but probably should just stick to being 3%. Alternatives > Replacements.

You've not really given it any support that rivals Captain AoE HPS (even with revealing removed) or anything that matches their defensive support in terms of rez/banner/to arms. You also entirely ignored Yellow Guardian.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Wardens:

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Yeah, you miiiight want to look at the effectiveness of morale taps a bit more. Resolution already lets you push up to ~65k hps. ST HoTs could do with the bump though. Revel in Combat change is weird, you're just adding random minor % mit buffs to the fellowship as I doubt your healer cares to receive a bunch of BPE bonuses. You're also buffing mits a bit randomly, we don't need 76% mits Wardens. Dunno why Restoration needs to be AoE, it's a tank not a healer, why does it need multiple AoE HoT's? If you wanna bump Warden survivability in terms of defensive cooldowns you really should focus more on letting healers have externals, 1 decent panic button per tank + healer with external defensive both bumps the amount of communication and gives healers the potential to actually stop a tank from dying.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Beorning:

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Ha, yellow beorning is now king of the healers with access to a ~18k HPS fellowship-wide HoT and a 100% damage redirect with 55% mitigation. I recommend trying a Bear tank at least once before commenting, the class primarily lacks mechanics, not power. If your goal was making them sturdier you probably should have been looking at adding some mechanic for reduced tactical damage because they outright take the least physical damage on average. Preferably you make their physical/tactical mits something they actually have to think about maintaining rather than have them be passive effects.

If you wanna buff yellow beornings then probably start looking at giving them some ST man form HoT's to spread so they actually have something to do that tides them over between burst heals (and gives man form real value). Oh and maybe give them a fellowship-wide defensive cooldown instead of bond.

Still don't know why you're buffing buttons that already effectively make a character invincible for up to 20s. You're just making them better at bypassing mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Blue Champ:
I had already made a Blue Champ proposed rework thread on the bullroarer forums some time ago, so I'll just list the main changes below.

These changes immediately deal with the fact that Champs are by far the weakest tanks, this allows them to retain their niche whilst also making them a viable choice based on the support they can provide (-% damage in Blade Wall, Champions Challenge and Horn of Champions, as well as an armour value reduction / mitigation debuff attached to Merciful Strike).

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Can't say I've played Chank any time recently so I'll just have to shrug and hope none of your suggestions here are equivalent to any of your suggestions for other classes. Technically Chank isn't the weakest tank though, Yellow Guard can probably take that title (although I guess they have a better defensive cooldown).

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Captain:

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Shield change is a little odd, give it to Blue Captain if you're gonna do that. Healing change is fine in theory but not correctly weighted, reduce inspire to blade-bro levels of healing instead of keeping it at song-bro levels (effectively halving it). No other heals really need a nerf as removing revealing mark from yellow captain entirely neuters the bulk of their raid healing. 0 mention of adjusting the double rez. Does absolutely nothing to help with Captain threat generation. Also, for a guy who keeps saying he's against being able to bypass mechanics you really do like to leave in mechanic bypassing abilities. 17s Last Stand will forever be a mechanic bypass, especially with IHW. You've also not removed Motivating Speech. It. Has. To. Go. From. Yellow/Blue....And. Give. Other. Support. Specs. An. Equivalent. Ability.


You can quit with the "aggro bot" line. It's completely incorrect. I want to see tanks taking an active role in maintaining their own defences and aggro management. Right now the difference in damage taken between a Beorning pushing buttons and one that doesn't push any buttons is effectively 0 as the mit buffs apply passively and have no costs. I'd prefer to see a system in which a tank who is actively monitoring and maintaining their defences takes at least 50% less damage than one that doesn't press anything. It's a similar situation with aggro, right now the only thing that truly matters is when you time a taunt. You have little to no ability to hold aggro outside of taunts. I'd prefer to see tanks get damage buffs/adjusted threat modifiers than maintain a system that totally devalues the tanks contribution to building threat.

This is why I object to Yellow Captain support. The vast majority of it is passive effects. You don't really take an active role in deciding where to apply buffs/what buffs to apply. A Yellow Captain is a buff bot.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Read the rest of that paragraph in future. Yellow RK would be totally unbalanced if it pulled competitive DPS whilst maintaining that amount of support. They would effectively count for being 100% of a DPS spot...whilst offering 30% of a support specs power, effectively making them worth 1.3 spots in a raid group. You don't balance a specs power budget based on what it brings to a singular role, you balance what it brings to the group overall. If you bump a competitive DPS specs support value you must then nerf it's DPS so it doesn't exceed the value of other competitive DPS.

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RKs should be with 10-15% of other DPSers as they were during Anvil, and during Anvil in T3 raids you would normally only find 1 RK, why, because every other class did more DPS and you only needed RKs for their fire debuffs. We are now in a position with Yellow RKs which provide NO offensive support to the group and only bring DNF, as such I'd argue they should be with 5-10% of all other DPS classes.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Overall you want to give the tank that takes the least tactical damage...more tactical mitigation.

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Wardens rival their mitigation % for tactical, so again, that isn't true, and in my experience ratings based buffs are inherently flawed considering they struggle to scale and stay relevant, making buffs apply % instead ensures their longevity.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Your shield wall change is funny because it guarantees two guardian tanks in all situations, they just shield wall each other and halve all incoming damage. Hooray.

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Well, shows how much you know about Guardians considering this isn't possible, so good job.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

You complain about panic skills bypassing mechanics and then you suggest making warriors heart even stronger than it currently is despite the fact that it already operates as an effective recovery from a near death situation.

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Warriors Heart does not match Captains Last Stand in any situation at all.

*Furthermore, mechanics need to be better designed so that simply using a cooldown skill on a tank doesn't guarantee you success, for example introducing more 1-shot mechanics if you fail a certain thing, if you fail an interrupt if you fail a corruption removal, if you fail to CJ a target, if you fail to divide bosses from one another, if you drop a puddle in the group which causes 25-50% morale damage a tick, there are so many mechanics that can be used in content that are currently not being used, mechanics that would invalidate using a cooldown skill because you cannot survive failing the mechanic in the first place, and this is all a product of BAD CONTENT DESIGN.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

You want litany to be a stronger group defensive cooldown than any healer has access to, yes it matches IHW/LS but whether or not Captains should even have IHW in its current state is contested.

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It matches IHW, that is the point. It opens Guardians up to being able to perform the role of absorbing damage from the group as and when necessary, and it also means it's NOT something that is only available on one class.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

You've not really given it any support that rivals Captain AoE HPS (even with revealing removed) or anything that matches their defensive support in terms of rez/banner/to arms. You also entirely ignored Yellow Guardian.

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Are we supposed to give Guardians healing capabilities now too? And Yellow Guardians are hardly if ever used in progression high tier content, plus I don't play the spec enough to suggest coherent changes.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Yeah, you miiiight want to look at the effectiveness of morale taps a bit more. Resolution already lets you push up to ~65k hps.

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Resolution is not relative of Exaltation of Battle and Fierce Resolve (I'm aware resolution is classified as a morale-tap, but it's an instant heal rather than a HoT as the other 2 gambits are which is primarily what I was focusing on).

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Revel in Combat change is weird, you're just adding random minor % mit buffs to the fellowship as I doubt your healer cares to receive a bunch of BPE bonuses.

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It's not just +% mits, it's +mitigation rating, it's +evade its +parry, it's +% incoming healing, there are a wealth of bonuses on Warden defensive gambits that if they were rolled out onto the fellowship would be almost a level of unrivalled defensive support. It ALSO allows Warden to rival the fortification/herald bonus.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

You're also buffing mits a bit randomly, we don't need 76% mits Wardens. Dunno why Restoration needs to be AoE, it's a tank not a healer, why does it need multiple AoE HoT's?

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Because it begins to rival Captain Healing, and in which case, cap it out at +3%.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

If you wanna bump Warden survivability in terms of defensive cooldowns you really should focus more on letting healers have externals.

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No, I shouldn't. The class has one defensive cooldown, that cannot even be relied upon anymore.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Ha, yellow beorning is now king of the healers.

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They are kings of BURST healing. They suck as sustained healers, it wasn't so much an issue with Thrang at this level-cap as the way he scaled from 120 was a joke. However the 120 version of Thrang was a difficult feat to do on Beorning simply because they lack sustained healing.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

I recommend trying a Bear tank at least once before commenting, the class primarily lacks mechanics, not power. If your goal was making them sturdier you probably should have been looking at adding some mechanic for reduced tactical damage because they outright take the least physical damage on average. Preferably you make their physical/tactical mits something they actually have to think about maintaining rather than have them be passive effects.

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And again, the chances of SSG changing the class fundamentally at this point, is unlikely, so I went for what IS likely, AND they also do need to be sturdier.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Still don't know why you're buffing buttons that already effectively make a character invincible for up to 20s. You're just making them better at bypassing mechanics.

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*See my above comment about mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Can't say I've played Chank any time recently so I'll just have to shrug and hope none of your suggestions here are equivalent to any of your suggestions for other classes. Technically Chank isn't the weakest tank though, Yellow Guard can probably take that title (although I guess they have a better defensive cooldown).

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Chank is the weakest, by far. A Yellow Guardian is more than capable of solo-healing / surviving themselves through Harrowing or Roost T5, so is any other tank mentioned, all except for a Blue Champ (At least this was the situation prior to 3-peaks, idk about now). Ergo, the weakest. If you want to talk about damage taken on paper, no, it isn't the weakest, but damage taken on paper isn't relative to how the class ACTUALLY plays.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Shield change is a little odd, give it to Blue Captain if you're gonna do that.

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No, simply because Blue Cappies don't need it, and it's a defensive cooldown, that belongs on a tank. Sacrifice with Beornings is an enigma, considering it's available in all 3 lines, and it's effectiveness changes based on traits, so unless you plan to do something similar with SoD, it is fine in Yellow, the point is, Captain has too many cooldowns, and this allows it to offer a high-level of defensive support to its fellow tank.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Healing change is fine in theory but not correctly weighted, reduce inspire to blade-bro levels of healing instead of keeping it at song-bro levels (effectively halving it). No other heals really need a nerf as removing revealing mark from yellow captain entirely neuters the bulk of their raid healing.

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Muster self-heal needs a nerf. As a Yellow Captain in a raid, I can maintain 110k+ HPS, granted 50k HPS comes from Revealing Mark alone, BUT, a Tank should not be outputting 60k HPS on its fellowship. Thus, realistically all healing needs a relative nerf of between 30-50%, it just makes it easier to reduce YCaptain outgoing healing across the board.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

0 mention of adjusting the double rez. Does absolutely nothing to help with Captain threat generation. Also, for a guy who keeps saying he's against being able to bypass mechanics you really do like to leave in mechanic bypassing abilities. 17s Last Stand will forever be a mechanic bypass, especially with IHW. You've also not removed Motivating Speech. It. Has. To. Go. From. Yellow/Blue....And. Give. Other. Support. Specs. An. Equivalent. Ability.

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As I've mentioned before, believing that at this stage in the game SSG is going to begin fundamentally reworking classes from the ground up is not something that is likely ever going to happen - so I focus on the likely. Furthermore, see my above comment (again), in relation to mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

I want to see tanks taking an active role in maintaining their own defences and aggro management. Right now the difference in damage taken between a Beorning pushing buttons and one that doesn't push any buttons is effectively 0 as the mit buffs apply passively and have no costs. I'd prefer to see a system in which a tank who is actively monitoring and maintaining their defences takes at least 50% less damage than one that doesn't press anything. It's a similar situation with aggro, right now the only thing that truly matters is when you time a taunt. You have little to no ability to hold aggro outside of taunts. I'd prefer to see tanks get damage buffs/adjusted threat modifiers than maintain a system that totally devalues the tanks contribution to building threat.

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And again, you are asking for things that are unlikely never going to happen, accept the limitations of the company who will be implementing the changes and suggest realistic changes that are LIKELY to happen.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

This is why I object to Yellow Captain support. The vast majority of it is passive effects. You don't really take an active role in deciding where to apply buffs/what buffs to apply. A Yellow Captain is a buff bot.

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Captains, regardless of line, are buff-bots. Case and point, that is the class.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

RKs should be with 10-15% of other DPSers as they were during Anvil, and during Anvil in T3 raids you would normally only find 1 RK, why, because every other class did more DPS and you only needed RKs for their fire debuffs. We are now in a position with Yellow RKs which provide NO offensive support to the group and only bring DNF, as such I'd argue they should be with 5-10% of all other DPS classes.

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And then they release some content where a bit more defensive support is required and suddenly everyone brings multiple Yellow RKs for DNF + EoE. Quit looking at singular aspects in isolation, look at the whole. Red/Yellow RK has a ton of power tied into defensive support, the fact that that support isn't required at the present moment does not matter.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Wardens rival their mitigation % for tactical, so again, that isn't true, and in my experience ratings based buffs are inherently flawed considering they struggle to scale and stay relevant, making buffs apply % instead ensures their longevity.

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You're not accounting for redirect.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Well, shows how much you know about Guardians considering this isn't possible, so good job.

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Can't say I've ever had 2 guards in a raid before. Sacrifice + Shield Wall can be cross applied (and litany + IHW although none of this stuff redirects the redirect), wasn't sure on shield wall/shield wall. You're still creating a scenario where a Guardian could reasonably be brought along to just cancel 50% of the damage going into a particular target. Bonus points for the guard using that shield wall mitigates 33% more damage to nullify 83% of the damage coming through.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Warriors Heart does not match Captains Last Stand in any situation at all.

*Furthermore, mechanics need to be better designed so that simply using a cooldown skill on a tank doesn't guarantee you success, for example introducing more 1-shot mechanics if you fail a certain thing, if you fail an interrupt if you fail a corruption removal, if you fail to CJ a target, if you fail to divide bosses from one another, if you drop a puddle in the group which causes 25-50% morale damage a tick, there are so many mechanics that can be used in content that are currently not being used, mechanics that would invalidate using a cooldown skill because you cannot survive failing the mechanic in the first place, and this is all a product of BAD CONTENT DESIGN.

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Yet you promote last stand. A skill that by definition would bypass all the mechanics you've listed. Warriors Heart is a good example of a panic skill. It brings you up to full and makes you ~60% tankier for a short duration. Last Stand is a bad example of a panic skill, it makes you invincible for 17s so no amount of mistakes can result in you dying and you don't get penalised for taking massive damage during that time either. If Last Stand created a heal absorb equal to all damage you took during those 17s it might be balanced, it does not do that (and the duration is too long regardless).

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

It matches IHW, that is the point. It opens Guardians up to being able to perform the role of absorbing damage from the group as and when necessary, and it also means it's NOT something that is only available on one class.

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Gonna throw this out there...real crazy thought but...you COULD prevent IHW from being a thing that exists solely on one class by reducing it to be equivalent to the healer cooldowns such as fates OR...by giving healers the damn defensive cooldowns. It's their job to keep the people alive through incoming damage after all.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Are we supposed to give Guardians healing capabilities now too? And Yellow Guardians are hardly if ever used in progression high tier content, plus I don't play the spec enough to suggest coherent changes.

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Nope, but you're the one trying to make guard competitive via buffs to support so I guess you need to figure out a way to make them compete in that regard as well. You could've just gone for a DPS buff that allows it to give value to offence that is equivalent to the defensive value of Captain heals.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

It's not just +% mits, it's +mitigation rating, it's +evade its +parry, it's +% incoming healing, there are a wealth of bonuses on Warden defensive gambits that if they were rolled out onto the fellowship would be almost a level of unrivalled defensive support. It ALSO allows Warden to rival the fortification/herald bonus.

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They're mostly outmatched by motivating speech alone. 2.5% fellowship wide mits and 5% incoming healing just don't compete with 10% more morale + a bunch of other stats. You're also just tacking support abilities on to the spec for the sake of it. It's gonna be essentially passive as you're sharing your own buffs here and for obvious reasons you'd have been putting those up anyway. If neither class is going to actively think about the buffs you might as well remove them entirely. Same net result.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Because it begins to rival Captain Healing, and in which case, cap it out at +3%.

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That's predicated on the argument that Captain AoE healing should be standard for tanks. It shouldn't. Captain is the support tank, let it be the one with more defensive support. Other tanks can stick to having higher DPS.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

No, I shouldn't. The class has one defensive cooldown, that cannot even be relied upon anymore.

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And healers having externals give tanks access to a second defensive cooldown. It literally does the same thing but without the danger of letting tanks coast from cooldown to cooldown in order to complete content entirely without a healer. Tanks and healers are supposed to be working in concert, you shouldn't just relegate healers to doing nothing but blast out large heals constantly.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

They are kings of BURST healing. They suck as sustained healers, it wasn't so much an issue with Thrang at this level-cap as the way he scaled from 120 was a joke. However the 120 version of Thrang was a difficult feat to do on Beorning simply because they lack sustained healing.

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And you've just promoted giving them borderline Captain levels of sustained healing to go with that burst with little to no effort required to maintain it. They definitely need some options for sustained healing between burst windows but not like that.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

And again, the chances of SSG changing the class fundamentally at this point, is unlikely, so I went for what IS likely, AND they also do need to be sturdier.

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Not in terms of physical damage and stop arbitrarily deciding "that's not likely". They're literally making an entirely new class right now, large class efforts are clearly not entirely out of the realm of possibility. And I really don't want to advocate for blind numerical buffs to classes, I argued against those when they did them to Beornings before and I'll argue against them here. If a class has no mechanics it does not deserve to be useable, it might as well be an AI at that point.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

*See my above comment about mechanics.

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*See the multiple mentions that allowing for long duration "I cannot die" buttons to exist lets you bypass mechanics. If you don't want mechanics bypassing to be a thing quit asking for tanks to have abilities that are so strong you can bypass mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Chank is the weakest, by far. A Yellow Guardian is more than capable of solo-healing / surviving themselves through Harrowing or Roost T5, so is any other tank mentioned, all except for a Blue Champ (At least this was the situation prior to 3-peaks, idk about now). Ergo, the weakest. If you want to talk about damage taken on paper, no, it isn't the weakest, but damage taken on paper isn't relative to how the class ACTUALLY plays.

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Those classes have fairly equitable amounts of self healing. Chank is not the weakest by far, it just happens to be the one you play.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

No, simply because Blue Cappies don't need it, and it's a defensive cooldown, that belongs on a tank. Sacrifice with Beornings is an enigma, considering it's available in all 3 lines, and it's effectiveness changes based on traits, so unless you plan to do something similar with SoD, it is fine in Yellow, the point is, Captain has too many cooldowns, and this allows it to offer a high-level of defensive support to its fellow tank.

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It's an ability that lets you save a single target from taking heavy damage, it's pro-active healing. Healing isn't purely about throwing out green numbers, it's just a catch-all for any kind of ability that helps keep a target alive. Or do you want to argue that fates entwined isn't a healing cooldown because it doesn't make green numbers?

And boy oh boy do Blue Captains need something ST focused.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Muster self-heal needs a nerf. As a Yellow Captain in a raid, I can maintain 110k+ HPS, granted 50k HPS comes from Revealing Mark alone, BUT, a Tank should not be outputting 60k HPS on its fellowship. Thus, realistically all healing needs a relative nerf of between 30-50%, it just makes it easier to reduce YCaptain outgoing healing across the board.

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Not necessarily. Yellow Captain is far and away the weakest tank in terms of damage output, instead of damage it does heals. You may be doing 60k HPS outside of revealing mark but a large chunk of that is healing on yourself + pet. Individual targets are receiving closer to 13k HPS each. A decent amount but not staggering. With inspire reduced that would be closer to 10k. It's a trade-off in damage for healing and whilst that healing potential skews things mildly in favour of Captains for defensive scenarios it is equally skewed against them in offensive situations.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

As I've mentioned before, believing that at this stage in the game SSG is going to begin fundamentally reworking classes from the ground up is not something that is likely ever going to happen - so I focus on the likely. Furthermore, see my above comment (again), in relation to mechanics.

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I really don't care what you think is likely, it's demonstrably not accurate. They are making a new class, they clearly don't mind in-depth class work.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Captains, regardless of line, are buff-bots. Case and point, that is the class.

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And that's problematic. Make buffing an active role and you massively improve the class design here. Hilariously removing all of the passive buffs and some notable overpowered support abilities (double rez/IHW+LS combo) brings Captains to a fairly even level with the other tanks. From there giving them active buffs that let them boost others whilst siphoning threat would help fix the main flaw of Yellow Captain and actually let people have that support tank playstyle that they seem to care about.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

And then they release some content where a bit more defensive support is required and suddenly everyone brings multiple Yellow RKs for DNF + EoE. Quit looking at singular aspects in isolation, look at the whole. Red/Yellow RK has a ton of power tied into defensive support, the fact that that support isn't required at the present moment does not matter.

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It DOES matter. ANY competent raid composition will use one of each DPS class because of the way in which they support each other (Bar RKs), to get the maximum DPS from your group, you will hardly, if ever, stack, secondly, I'm not talking about Red, I'm talking specifically about Yellow. Yellow, as it stands, even with its defensive support, is not even on the table, it is not considered an option, at all. Therefore there is something wrong. It's not considered because it cannot compete on a DPS level. It needs to be within 5-10% of the other DPS class, and Red-Line, as a result of having greater support should be within 15%. More to the point at 120 - Red RKs WERE within 15% of the rest of the DPSers (Pre-burg buffs), and in the high-end groups, you never saw RK stacking.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

You're not accounting for redirect.

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No, I'm not accounting for buffs that don't have a 100% uptime.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Can't say I've ever had 2 guards in a raid before. Sacrifice + Shield Wall can be cross applied (and litany + IHW although none of this stuff redirects the redirect), wasn't sure on shield wall/shield wall. You're still creating a scenario where a Guardian could reasonably be brought along to just cancel 50% of the damage going into a particular target. Bonus points for the guard using that shield wall mitigates 33% more damage to nullify 83% of the damage coming through.

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I never suggested SW damage negation should be 50%, you inferred that based on my LoD suggestion, reasonably it should be somewhere in the 25% range (there was a set bonus from Abyss that already did this and it put the SW redirect at 66% and it was never once used in the way you are suggesting.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Yet you promote last stand. A skill that by definition would bypass all the mechanics you've listed. Warriors Heart is a good example of a panic skill. It brings you up to full and makes you ~60% tankier for a short duration. Last Stand is a bad example of a panic skill, it makes you invincible for 17s so no amount of mistakes can result in you dying and you don't get penalised for taking massive damage during that time either. If Last Stand created a heal absorb equal to all damage you took during those 17s it might be balanced, it does not do that (and the duration is too long regardless).

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Not if they designed one-shot mechanics that went through Last Stand, as in instant-kill/defeat mechanics, as opposed to taking X amount of damage to kill you.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Gonna throw this out there...real crazy thought but...you COULD prevent IHW from being a thing that exists solely on one class by reducing it to be equivalent to the healer cooldowns such as fates OR...by giving healers the damn defensive cooldowns. It's their job to keep the people alive through incoming damage after all.

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Yes. By healing. Not by using defensive tank cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Nope, but you're the one trying to make guard competitive via buffs to support so I guess you need to figure out a way to make them compete in that regard as well. You could've just gone for a DPS buff that allows it to give value to offence that is equivalent to the defensive value of Captain heals.

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Not all classes will support exactly the same amount, and where they support less they will be tankier, (which the aforementioned changes to Guard probably would result in).

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

They're mostly outmatched by motivating speech alone. 2.5% fellowship wide mits and 5% incoming healing just don't compete with 10% more morale + a bunch of other stats. You're also just tacking support abilities on to the spec for the sake of it. It's gonna be essentially passive as you're sharing your own buffs here and for obvious reasons you'd have been putting those up anyway. If neither class is going to actively think about the buffs you might as well remove them entirely. Same net result.

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It is actively thinking about them, considering you need to be able to rotate them well enough so that none of them expire, whilst also keeping up your own HoTs, and helping to DPS here and there. It is not as black and white as you are suggesting.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

That's predicated on the argument that Captain AoE healing should be standard for tanks. It shouldn't. Captain is the support tank, let it be the one with more defensive support. Other tanks can stick to having higher DPS.

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All tanks should offer support, and they already all do, Captains just offer more support than the rest of them, it doesn't make it the "support tank" - it just means the other tanks need to offer more support. You aren't taking a tank for DPS, and more to the point the level of DPS being put out by a Tank is a version of "Support".

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

And you've just promoted giving them borderline Captain levels of sustained healing to go with that burst with little to no effort required to maintain it. They definitely need some options for sustained healing between burst windows but not like that.

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And your suggestion would be what? An AoE HoT effect is the best way to bridge the gap as its sustained healing. Apart from the fact that the way recuperate trait works by increasing the initial heal at a cost of the HoT itself means the HoT is also significantly weaker than a Captains, but it helps to fill a gap in both Yellow and Blue beorning.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Not in terms of physical damage and stop arbitrarily deciding "that's not likely". They're literally making an entirely new class right now, large class efforts are clearly not entirely out of the realm of possibility. And I really don't want to advocate for blind numerical buffs to classes, I argued against those when they did them to Beornings before and I'll argue against them here. If a class has no mechanics it does not deserve to be useable, it might as well be an AI at that point.

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I'm not arbitrarily deciding anything, I'm looking at a 13-year track record, something you might want to try doing at some point - and if they are looking at making a new class, what does that say about their view/opinion of the old ones?

*FURTHERMORE, it was announced at the start of the Class Revamps during Mordor, that once each class received its balance pass (finishing with RK at the release of MM), they would simply like to tweak classes from update to update to keep them competitive, so no, fundamental changes to the core designs of the classes are NOT going to happen, and they've already confirmed this. So yes, focus on what's LIKELY to happen. On top of that a new class means more money, it means people have to buy the class, it means valars, it means mithril coins, it means people buying boosts for VXP, ILI's, the list goes on, it's about money.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

*See the multiple mentions that allowing for long duration "I cannot die" buttons to exist lets you bypass mechanics. If you don't want mechanics bypassing to be a thing quit asking for tanks to have abilities that are so strong you can bypass mechanics.

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As above: Not if they designed one-shot mechanics that went through Last Stand, as in instant-kill/defeat mechanics, as opposed to taking X amount of damage to kill you.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Those classes have fairly equitable amounts of self healing. Chank is not the weakest by far, it just happens to be the one you play.

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You really need to get your head out of the ground, sorry, Chank self-healing is nowhere close to Yellow Guard, absolutely nowhere close.

Bracing attack is a 20k heal on 30s cooldown.
Dire Need is 18k on a 1min cooldown.
Fight On is 30% on a 3min cooldown.
Exalted Combatant is a 25% heal (WHEN you go below 30% morale), on a 1m 30s cooldown.

How is any of this comparable to the amount of healing a Yellow Guardian is capable of, which can reach sustained levels of 15k+ HPS? Please. Explain.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

It's an ability that lets you save a single target from taking heavy damage, it's pro-active healing. Healing isn't purely about throwing out green numbers, it's just a catch-all for any kind of ability that helps keep a target alive. Or do you want to argue that fates entwined isn't a healing cooldown because it doesn't make green numbers?

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Its not a healing cooldown, its a defensive cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

And boy oh boy do Blue Captains need something ST focused.

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Sure, because giving the Healer with the highest AoE Healing the second-best ST cooldown in the game is a good idea?

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

I really don't care what you think is likely, it's demonstrably not accurate. They are making a new class, they clearly don't mind in-depth class work.

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*As above.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

And that's problematic. Make buffing an active role and you massively improve the class design here. Hilariously removing all of the passive buffs and some notable overpowered support abilities (double rez/IHW+LS combo) brings Captains to a fairly even level with the other tanks. From there giving them active buffs that let them boost others whilst siphoning threat would help fix the main flaw of Yellow Captain and actually let people have that support tank playstyle that they seem to care about.

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*As above.

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Originally Posted by Severlin

One of the longer-term requests we have heard from you is a desire to take a holistic look at our ten classes. This is a challenge for our relatively small team, so we had to take a look at how best to bring this to you. Instead of a comprehensive overhaul of each class, one at a time, we will instead make targeted adjustments to many classes at once, and continue these incremental improvements over future updates. This allows us to improve all of our classes in a shorter time frame and better balance power and group utility in a more responsive way. You can expect the first wave of class adjustments to happen in the coming months, and continue for some time to come.

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As I said.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

It DOES matter. ANY competent raid composition will use one of each DPS class because of the way in which they support each other (Bar RKs), to get the maximum DPS from your group, you will hardly, if ever, stack, secondly, I'm not talking about Red, I'm talking specifically about Yellow. Yellow, as it stands, even with its defensive support, is not even on the table, it is not considered an option, at all. Therefore there is something wrong. It's not considered because it cannot compete on a DPS level. It needs to be within 5-10% of the other DPS class, and Red-Line, as a result of having greater support should be within 15%.

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It's not considered because people don't need the added defensive value of a yellow RK. Add more frequent burst raidwide damage and/or a scenario in which deaths become increasingly more likely and the value of yellow RK increases. Consider the whole, stop fixating on individual aspects. Totally fine for Yellow RK's to become a competitive DPS...but DNF/EoE needs to change in the same update. Rebalance the power from defensive support to DPS. Given the option of pulling competitive DPS or being non-competitive but able to tag a person every 150s with DNF...I think most people would prefer to be a competitive DPS.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

No, I'm not accounting for buffs that don't have a 100% uptime.

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...then start accounting for that because it's incredibly relevant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

I never suggested SW damage negation should be 50%, you inferred that based on my LoD suggestion, reasonably it should be somewhere in the 25% range (there was a set bonus from Abyss that already did this and it put the SW redirect at 66% and it was never once used in the way you are suggesting.

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Abyss set is 33%. Either way giving a permanent 100% redirect a mitigation component is bad design, it's free deletion of damage, 0 cost. If it's gonna mitigate give it a duration/cd. Sacrifice is a tolerable example of this being done reasonably well. Or just leave it as is, permanent 100% but no mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Not if they designed one-shot mechanics that went through Last Stand, as in instant-kill/defeat mechanics, as opposed to taking X amount of damage to kill you.

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Now you're adding mechanics that you just can't recover from.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Yes. By healing. Not by using defensive tank cooldowns.

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You have a very strange view of the role of a healer. Proactive healing is healing, green text isn't the be-all, end-all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Not all classes will support exactly the same amount, and where they support less they will be tankier, (which the aforementioned changes to Guard probably would result in).

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Bad design. Tanks should be generally equal in terms of tankiness/aggro. These are the core pillars of tanking after all. Where they can differ is in terms of what else they bring. Some might offer group healing, some might offer more damage and some might offer crowd control. If a tank is inferior defensively it'll usually end up being dropped out of favour the moment that defence is emphasised. You should generally be able to accomplish the goal of your role at a bare minimum.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

It is actively thinking about them, considering you need to be able to rotate them well enough so that none of them expire, whilst also keeping up your own HoTs, and helping to DPS here and there. It is not as black and white as you are suggesting.

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Except you were already rotating those abilities for yourself, now they just apply to everyone. Only reason you are suggesting it is because you're trying to match Captain toolkit of passive auras...but the whole discussion is began with the idea that Captains shouldn't have that level of passive support. At best this has the same net goal as removing Captain auras but with less performance benefits, at worst it just becomes another randomly added variable to balance around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

All tanks should offer support, and they already all do, Captains just offer more support than the rest of them, it doesn't make it the "support tank" - it just means the other tanks need to offer more support. You aren't taking a tank for DPS, and more to the point the level of DPS being put out by a Tank is a version of "Support".

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All tanks should be support tanks? Crack out the rezzes, heals and buffs! Tanking isn't aggro and self defence, it's fellowship healing and buffing now! Step aside healer, you have to share all of your duties now, nothing unique for your role!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

And your suggestion would be what? An AoE HoT effect is the best way to bridge the gap as its sustained healing. Apart from the fact that the way recuperate trait works by increasing the initial heal at a cost of the HoT itself means the HoT is also significantly weaker than a Captains, but it helps to fill a gap in both Yellow and Blue beorning.

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Nah, ST man form HoT replacing natures mend (possibly tweak mend into being a longer cooldown triage heal). They can weave it into their man form rotation to cover everyone or they can just focus it on tank, whatever they like. Just gives them something to pre-empt burst with. I'd rather rework man form to focus on HoTs entirely and leave all the burst/dps to bear but this isn't the place to go into major detail on healer revamps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

I'm not arbitrarily deciding anything, I'm looking at a 13-year track record, something you might want to try doing at some point - and if they are looking at making a new class, what does that say about their view/opinion of the old ones?

*FURTHERMORE, it was announced at the start of the Class Revamps during Mordor, that once each class received its balance pass (finishing with RK at the release of MM), they would simply like to tweak classes from update to update to keep them competitive, so no, fundamental changes to the core designs of the classes are NOT going to happen, and they've already confirmed this. So yes, focus on what's LIKELY to happen. On top of that a new class means more money, it means people have to buy the class, it means valars, it means mithril coins, it means people buying boosts for VXP, ILI's, the list goes on, it's about money.

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Plans change, 3 year old plans that didn't work are also capable of being changed. The original plan was to have a class = role system, they threw that out 5 years in. You're still essentially arguing against doing things properly on the grounds that you don't think they would be willing to do things properly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

As above: Not if they designed one-shot mechanics that went through Last Stand, as in instant-kill/defeat mechanics, as opposed to taking X amount of damage to kill you.

*As above.

*As above.

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*As above; instant kill mechanics eliminate any possibility of recovering from slight mistakes. It's...........poor game design.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

You really need to get your head out of the ground, sorry, Chank self-healing is nowhere close to Yellow Guard, absolutely nowhere close.

Bracing attack is a 20k heal on 30s cooldown.
Dire Need is 18k on a 1min cooldown.
Fight On is 30% on a 3min cooldown.
Exalted Combatant is a 25% heal (WHEN you go below 30% morale), on a 1m 30s cooldown.

How is any of this comparable to the amount of healing a Yellow Guardian is capable of? Please. Explain.

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Ha, now why would you not mention Sudden Defence? Why are you avoiding traiting either blades of courage or killing spree? If you want to compare based on self sustain then do build for self sustain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Its not a healing cooldown, its a defensive cooldown.

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All falls under the same bracket sadly. It's proactive healing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Sure, because giving the Healer with the highest AoE Healing the second-best ST cooldown in the game is a good idea?

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Technically it's highest sustained. Their burst is mediocre. More adjustments would of course be required but why would you be giving a tank the ability to massively bump the effectiveness of another tank? Kinda guarantees Captain is always one of the 2 raid tanks. Externals should be on healers, fits comfortably within their role so all specs can reasonably be expected to get one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

As I said.

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As mentioned; it's not working, plan has to change.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

It's not considered because people don't need the added defensive value of a yellow RK.

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It's not considered because it's a DPS loss to bring one, as a result, they have no spot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Abyss set is 33%. Either way giving a permanent 100% redirect a mitigation component is bad design, it's free deletion of damage, 0 cost. If it's gonna mitigate give it a duration/cd. Sacrifice is a tolerable example of this being done reasonably well. Or just leave it as is, permanent 100% but no mitigation.

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Yes 33%. Which means you only take 67%, as I literally, just, said? And it still wasn't used in the way you have suggested.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Now you're adding mechanics that you just can't recover from.

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When you have the skill set we have with the classes we have, you need unforgiving mechanics, of course, not ALL mechanics should function in this way, but they SHOULD exist. You should be punished for failing the mechanics, you shouldn't be able to ever avoid them. The whelping on boss 1 Anvil was the perfect example of said mechanic, if it wasn't CJ'd in time, that was it, you wiped.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Bad design. Tanks should be generally equal in terms of tankiness/aggro. These are the core pillars of tanking after all. Where they can differ is in terms of what else they bring. Some might offer group healing, some might offer more damage and some might offer crowd control. If a tank is inferior defensively it'll usually end up being dropped out of favour the moment that defence is emphasised. You should generally be able to accomplish the goal of your role at a bare minimum.

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I've not suggested that any one of the classes would be incapable of tanking the content, all of the classes with these changes probably would be able to, but the classes that are less tanky offer more support, and the tanks that offer less support make up for that fact because they are stronger defensively. The choice of tank will depend on the group. A weaker / low-dps group might take a Captain because it has generally superior defensive support by comparison, however a better group would be better suited to taking a Beorning which offers greater offensive support.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Except you were already rotating those abilities for yourself, now they just apply to everyone. Only reason you are suggesting it is because you're trying to match Captain toolkit of passive auras...but the whole discussion is began with the idea that Captains shouldn't have that level of passive support. At best this has the same net goal as removing Captain auras but with less performance benefits, at worst it just becomes another randomly added variable to balance around.

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I genuinely don't understand what you expect the classes to look like, all classes (bar healers) follow a rotation except for when #### hits the fan and you need to improvise, or are you suggesting to just throw out MMO logic completely and get rid of each classes rotation?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

All tanks should be support tanks? Crack out the rezzes, heals and buffs! Tanking isn't aggro and self defence, it's fellowship healing and buffing now! Step aside healer, you have to share all of your duties now, nothing unique for your role!

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"Support" can mean a MULTITUDE of things. To suggest that support is only confined to "rezzes, heals, and buffs" is narrow-minded. All tanks already offer support, just at varying levels. Break ranks, is support, the fortification fellowship buff, is support, bee swarm / armour crush, is support, the mit debfuffs available to blue warden, is support. Anything that "helps" the group with some kind of utility is classified as support. Captains just have the MOST. Tanks should ALL offer varying levels of offensive/defensive support, and varying levels of tankiness based on the support they offer, with the most tankiest offering the least levels of support.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Plans change, 3 year old plans that didn't work are also capable of being changed. The original plan was to have a class = role system, they threw that out 5 years in. You're still essentially arguing against doing things properly on the grounds that you don't think they would be willing to do things properly.

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I'm not arguing on the grounds that I don't think they would be willing, I'm arguing on the grounds that it's not going to happen per what they've said.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

*As above; instant kill mechanics eliminate any possibility of recovering from slight mistakes. It's...........poor game design.

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You use both. Mechanics should be punishing. There should be mechanics that if you fail, they will wipe you, and there should be mechanics that if you fail, they will be punishing, but recoverable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Ha, now why would you not mention Sudden Defence? Why are you avoiding traiting either blades of courage or killing spree? If you want to compare based on self sustain then do build for self sustain.

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Sudden defence is not enough, and it's temporary morale, not a heal.
Killing Spree only works if YOU get the killing blow, you can also NOT trait blue-red if you are fighting against trash, as you will NOT be able to maintain the aggro, furthermore, again, it requires YOU to get the killing blow to get the heal (something which also isn't going to work in boss-fights with no adds).
The Blade of Courage proc % is not high enough to be a reliable source of healing.

ALL of which is still less than Yellow Guard. So, again, get your head out of the ground. I have tanked the T5's on both Chank and YGuard, a YGuard does not need a healer, a Chank needs an LM at minimum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Kinda guarantees Captain is always one of the 2 raid tanks.

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That fact is guaranteed regardless.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

As mentioned; it's not working, plan has to change.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Severlin

This is a challenge for our relatively small team, so we had to take a look at how best to bring this to you. Instead of a comprehensive overhaul of each class, one at a time, we will instead make targeted adjustments to many classes at once, and continue these incremental improvements over future updates..

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What part of this don't you understand lol?

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

It's not considered because it's a DPS loss to bring one, as a result, they have no spot.

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...and they don't get to have competitive DPS because a chunk of their power budget is tied up in defensive cooldowns. No, you don't get to have all singing and dancing DPS specs that rez, bubble, debuff and buff all at the same time without drawbacks. That's just silly.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Yes 33%. Which means you only take 67%, as I literally, just, said? And it still wasn't used in the way you have suggested.

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It wasn't warranted. Didn't need the defence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

When you have the skill set we have with the classes we have, you need unforgiving mechanics, of course, not ALL mechanics should function in this way, but they SHOULD exist. You should be punished for failing the mechanics, you shouldn't be able to ever avoid them. The whelping on boss 1 Anvil was the perfect example of said mechanic, if it wasn't CJ'd in time, that was it, you wiped.

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This is why we shouldn't have the skill set we have. No "invincibility" buttons, remove them. Panic button should be short duration recovery skills, not mechanic ignoring ones. You're trying to adapt content to poor design, fix the design instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

I've not suggested that any one of the classes would be incapable of tanking the content, all of the classes with these changes probably would be able to, but the classes that are less tanky offer more support, and the tanks offer less support make up for that fact because they are stronger defensively. The choice of tank will depend on the group. A weaker / low-dps group might take a Captain because it has generally superior defensive support by comparison, however a better group would be better suited to taking a Beorning which offers greater offensive support.

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They shouldn't be making tradeoffs on their primary role. The primary role of a yellow Captain is tanking, the primary role of a Blue Beorning is tanking. They should be equally effective at tanking. What they bring beyond tanking can be variable but shouldn't skew too heavily towards one option over another. There shouldn't be any intended case of a particular tank being weaker at something core to their role, that's poor design. This is literally the case with Yellow RK right now; it's got inferior DPS because it has strong defensive support options and guess what? That feels bad for RK's to have so much of their power budget tied up in something secondary to their role.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

I genuinely don't understand what you expect the classes to look like, all classes (bar healers) follow a rotation except for when #### hits the fan and you need to improvise, or are you suggesting to just throw out MMO logic completely and get rid of each classes rotation?

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I expect class design to be logical and not just bestow random numerical improvements in places where it doesn't make sense. A wardens defensive rotation is just that, it's their defensive rotation. It's not a defensive rotation they're looking to apply to the group, they're applying it to themselves because as a tank they need to be able to survive the damage that's incoming. Suddenly making those abilities fellowship-wide is totally random. You're arguing that Warden needs these things to compete with Captain but it doesn't even make sense that Captain functions in this way. The fellowship-wide aspect is totally incidental, they maintain those buffs because it's their form of active mitigation not because they're specifically looking to improve the defence of the group. If a red warden fires off adroit manoeuvre and wardens triumph...should those abilities be fellowship-wide as well? For all intents and purposes they are the same thing, dance of war is a buff you apply to bump your defence whilst tanking, adroit manoeuvre is a buff you apply to bump your DPS whilst dpsing.

Just passively making class buffs apply to everyone is really weird.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

"Support" can mean a MULTITUDE of things. To suggest that support is only confined to "rezzes, heals, and buffs" is narrow-minded. All tanks already offer support, just at varying levels. Break ranks, is support, the fortification fellowship buff, is support, bee swarm / armour crush, is support, the mit debfuffs available to blue warden, is support. Anything that "helps" the group with some kind of utility is classified as support. Captains just have the MOST. Tanks should ALL offer varying levels of offensive/defensive support, and varying levels of tankiness based on the support they offer, with the most tankiest offering the least levels of support.

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Why are you restricting tanks to only being able to do support as a secondary role? Why shouldn't they be pulling statistically significant yet no competitive DPS instead? If a Champ pulls 400k DPS in AoE why would it be so wrong for a tank to pull 250k in that same situation? You'd never take a tank as a DPS, they're not competitive in that role but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be capable of performing it to some degree. You're basically looking at Captain and saying "Ah, this is the quintessential example of what all tanks should be" and are now trying to shove every single other tank into that mould. They don't fit, it's not their design.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

I'm not arguing on the grounds that I don't think they would be willing, I'm arguing on the grounds that it's not going to happen per what they've said.

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Things can and should change. If someone were to write a perfect fix for all class balance issues it would be a very large amount of work to do but they would absolutely be able to implement it. Not in one single patch but gradually over a few years. Funnily enough taking into account that they have several years over which they can implement changes massively broadens the potential size of those changes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

You use both. Mechanics should be punishing. There should be mechanics that if you fail, they will wipe you, and there should be mechanics that if you fail, they will be punishing, but recoverable.

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No. Each encounter shouldn't include a mechanic that is entirely unrecoverable. It should be a slippery slope situation. The more mechanics you screw up the faster the faster you move towards entirely wiping. Last Stand breaks that as it essentially gives you a massive window in which you can totally reset the direction the group is headed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Sudden defence is not enough, and it's temporary morale, not a heal.
Killing Spree only works if YOU get the killing blow, you can also NOT trait blue-red if you are fighting against trash, as you will NOT be able to maintain the aggro, furthermore, again, it requires YOU to get the killing blow to get the heal (something which also isn't going to work in boss-fights with no adds).
The Blade of Courage proc % is not high enough to be a reliable source of healing.

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Good grief you need to revise your definition of healing. It doesn't include damage reductions or external cooldowns and now it excludes bubbles?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

That fact is guaranteed regardless.

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...so why would any proposed changes not aim to address that? Even if it's a dumb stopgap of "Motivating Speech is now raidwide"?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

What part of this don't you understand lol?

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Read the rest of that line:
"so we had to take a look at how best to bring this to you. Instead of a comprehensive overhaul of each class, one at a time, we will instead make targeted adjustments to many classes at once, and continue these incremental improvements over future updates.."

They acknowledge that class balance is a challenge so they opted to go down the route of targeted adjustments to many classes at once instead of one at at time. It's not a confirmation that they will never do it, merely a mention that they're choosing to go a different route which as mentioned isn't working. Hence the proposal that they change the plan up a bit.

You know what, I'm done replying to you.

I understand you have a very finite view of the way you believe the game should be, no doubt, we all do. Unfortunately, the rest of us live in the real world and understand what is and what isn't likely going to happen with SSG developing this game, I even brought you a direct quote, in their own words, from the Executive Producer, which says what you want to happen, is not going to happen, because they don't have the team to do it. The sooner you realise that, and accept that fact, the sooner you will start asking for realistic changes.

You're holding up a quote that doesn't really disprove anything as some kind of fact when it's basically just a "We think we're better off doing it this way" kind of thing which so far we can prove has not worked. They are capable of changing the plan. They are not limited to small changes. They are making an entirely new class, that alone goes right against the scenario you are suggesting.

Any change can technically be "realistic" so long as it the time-frame for it works out. Expecting a class revamp every dot update is indeed foolish. Expecting one every 4 months? That would be reasonable. Certain classes would be easy to tune within 4 months, RK being a prime example of that, it mostly needs its power in yellow/red budgeted properly. Captain admittedly needs more work as neither yellow/blue are properly conceptualised but all in all a 3-4 year timescale would be "realistic" here. They just need to be convinced to plan for that 3-4 years of work rather than randomly jumping between specs as they do now.

Heph, I'd just give up at this point to be honest. We've both given him so much solid information and he still disputes the painfully obvious. Given his distinct lack of knowledge of literally any class he's mentioned yet (Guardian, Champ, Captain, Warden) outside of Beorning (and that's not even certain, I just don't play it so can't tell if it's BS or not) I'm left wondering what class he actually plays. I really liked your class change suggestions for other tanks, I think they'd be excellent for the most part and actually got excited about dusting off my Guardian again when reading some of them until I remembered they're unlikely to come to fruition sadly.

Anyone that can possibly take the stance that Chanks are perfectly viable in their current state is not someone worth wasting your time on. I could write another 32 paragraphs on it but that's as plain as it need be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

Heph, I'd just give up at this point to be honest. We've both given him so much solid information and he still disputes the painfully obvious. Given his distinct lack of knowledge of literally any class he's mentioned yet (Guardian, Champ, Captain, Warden) outside of Beorning (and that's not even certain, I just don't play it so can't tell if it's BS or not) I'm left wondering what class he actually plays. I really liked your class change suggestions for other tanks, I think they'd be excellent for the most part and actually got excited about dusting off my Guardian again when reading some of them until I remembered they're unlikely to come to fruition sadly.

Anyone that can possibly take the stance that Chanks are perfectly viable in their current state is not someone worth wasting your time on. I could write another 32 paragraphs on it but that's as plain as it need be.

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Yes, his lack of knowledge was also glaringly obvious for someone who claims to play those classes. I sincerely believe my suggested changes are not only viable but within SSGs power to do so, however, it's SSG, so chances are slim anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

Heph, I'd just give up at this point to be honest. We've both given him so much solid information and he still disputes the painfully obvious. Given his distinct lack of knowledge of literally any class he's mentioned yet (Guardian, Champ, Captain, Warden) outside of Beorning (and that's not even certain, I just don't play it so can't tell if it's BS or not) I'm left wondering what class he actually plays. I really liked your class change suggestions for other tanks, I think they'd be excellent for the most part and actually got excited about dusting off my Guardian again when reading some of them until I remembered they're unlikely to come to fruition sadly.

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You've swapped to ad hominem attacks now huh. You're right on one front and that's the fact that I haven't played champ in years...although I did mention that explicitly within this thread soo....half merit for that?

May I recommend you two try a few other games. Why don't you both give WoW a shot? Heph might learn some basics about proactive healing, externals and damage absorbs and Eth might discover what it means to play a tank that can live or die by a single global. You both seem way too wrapped up in the current meta of LOTRO and I think you need the perspective.

I commend your efforts Eth and Heph. The absolute tripe that’s been written is unreal.

The lack of experience of raiding at the top level in this game shows through in his/her (given he/she is anonymous and doesn’t want to let us know which server and kin he/she is part of) every post. Most of the suggestions would render the content undoable for a large percentage of raid groups, further alienating the content and the players.

Let’s not forget this is specific to Remmo as we all know, Threshold has now been completed by GRDs, Bears and even WRDs main tanking, I know this because my kin is doing it and the underlining reason for it, because the CONTENT caters for it. Imagine.

It’s glaring obvious the previous suggestions would create another GOD class, which will appear in another section of the forum, with XYZ needs to be nerfed.

Funny how people who know the least have the most to say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

May I recommend you two try a few other games. Why don't you both give WoW a shot? Heph might learn some basics about proactive healing, externals and damage absorbs and Eth might discover what it means to play a tank that can live or die by a single global. You both seem way too wrapped up in the current meta of LOTRO and I think you need the perspective.

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Newsflash, this isn't WoW, and I'm glad it's not because if it was, I wouldn't be here, and I'm sure half the people playing would say the same thing. LOTRO is its own game that does things its own way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Newsflash, this isn't WoW, and I'm glad it's not because if it was, I wouldn't be here, and I'm sure half the people playing would say the same thing. LOTRO is its own game that does things its own way.

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That's abundantly clear.

One should always take some notes from the leaders in ones field. If WoW has managed one thing well it's solid game design principles, LOTRO's game design in regards to group content is pretty poor in comparison. I would never argue to make LOTRO into WoW but I would argue that they need to take some inspiration from a game that manages to do things well, they could also take inspiration from GW2/ESO or even Destiny in some areas and it would result in an all-round better game. Don't be so close-minded.

Primary reason I suggested it to you is that it has perhaps the most well-documented/elaborated role of a healer in any MMO. Your exceptionally narrow-minded view of what constitutes healing is harmful, go educate yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

That's abundantly clear.

One should always take some notes from the leaders in ones field. If WoW has managed one thing well it's solid game design principles, LOTRO's game design in regards to group content is pretty poor in comparison. I would never argue to make LOTRO into WoW but I would argue that they need to take some inspiration from a game that manages to do things well, they could also take inspiration from GW2/ESO or even Destiny in some areas and it would result in an all-round better game. Don't be so close-minded.

Primary reason I suggested it to you is that it has perhaps the most well-documented/elaborated role of a healer in any MMO. Your exceptionally narrow-minded view of what constitutes healing is harmful, go educate yourself.

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Just because another game has done something well, does not mean it will work "well" in a different game, with an entirely different player base, with an entirely different class design to boot. I play plenty of other MMOs thankyou, and aside from healers having the odd cooldown, 1, maybe 2 at most (unless they are also heavily tank-specced (isn't that ironic?)), the cooldowns are on the tanks, as they should be, LOTRO also does exactly that.

I'm not close-minded, but LOTRO is its own game, and it needn't copy from others, they tried that in the past and we ended up with the trait trees, and the Legendary Servers, I prefer they stick to what they want to do and not try to copy from others in the industry when they don't have the manpower to replicate the results.

If you want to play WoW, go play WoW, or any other game for that matter, it seems you can't praise them enough - LOTRO needn't do what another game is doing just because 'you' deem it successful. Different games, different styles, different artistic direction for that matter, different communities and playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Just because another game has done something well, does not mean it will work "well" in a different game, with an entirely different player base, with an entirely different class design to boot. I play plenty of other MMOs thankyou, and aside from healers having the odd cooldown, 1, maybe 2 at most (unless they are also heavily tank-specced (isn't that ironic?)), the cooldowns are on the tanks, as they should be, LOTRO also does exactly that.

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The group defensives aren't and funnily enough most healers still have at least one external. Right now only Beorning has an external defensive for the tank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

I'm not close-minded, but LOTRO is its own game, and it needn't copy from others, they tried that in the past and we ended up with the trait trees, and the Legendary Servers, I prefer they stick to what they want to do and not try to copy from others in the industry when they don't have the manpower to replicate the results.

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Don't need to copy, do need to learn from. They exist within the same genre, of course there are lessons to be learnt. Insisting that they should bury their head in the sand and not look at what the competition is doing is indeed close-minded.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

If you want to play WoW, go play WoW, or any other game for that matter, it seems you can't praise them enough - LOTRO needn't do what another game is doing just because 'you' deem it successful. Different games, different styles, different artistic direction for that matter, different communities and playerbase.

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I don't really think I'm the one "deeming" WoW as successful. The entire gaming community would consider WoW a success. It's the most popular MMO and it totally changed the genre inspiring a bunch of copycats. LOTRO is even one of those copycats in several regards. Your personal opinion on it is irrelevant, it was merely an example of well-documented division of responsibilities by role.


You really, really need to adjust your view on healing. Functionally there is absolutely no difference between a HoT effect that heals 50% of the damage taken over 8 seconds vs an external damage reduction that reduces incoming damage by 50% over that same 8s. A heal that restores 200k morale is functionally no different from applying a 200k temporary health bubble to the character, the only difference is whether that full 200k gets consumed before it expires. The complete contempt you have for the healing role is awful, you are effectively dialling back the impact of healers in order to improve tanking support capability...when you could just not do that and instead stick to giving tanks tank-related stuff to do. Quit focusing on one aspect and focus on the whole.

You have proven to have a complete lack of understanding and knowledge for half the classes in this game, even classes you apparently "play", I am beginning to wonder if you even do, actually, play this game.

You aren't happy with the way healing works in this game so you want to do tear down the tanks to buff healers (that's not the way THIS game works), gotcha.

Still not going to happen.

Bye.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

You have proven to have a complete lack of understanding and knowledge for half the classes in this game, even classes you apparently "play", I am beginning to wonder if you even do, actually, play this game.

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Guess the same works in reverse. Who knows how a chank forgets sudden defence or a guard forgets redirect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

You aren't happy with the way healing works in this game so you want to do tear down the tanks to buff healers (that's not the way THIS game works), gotcha.

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Oh no, I'm recommending buffing healers and nerfing one tank who happens to have too much support. Considering 5/6 tank classes don't emphasise absurd groupwide support we can kinda observe that it is in fact not how tanks in this game work. It is the way one of them works and it's fairly disputed whether even that one should be capable of what it does. So go get some perspective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Guess the same works in reverse. Who knows how a chank forgets sudden defence or a guard forgets redirect.

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They weren't forgotten, they were omitted, neither of which were relevant to the point I was making, and as you have been proven wrong already on both counts, you keep referencing them, in the hope of, what exactly? Yes, I'm sure Sudden Defence will save a Chank who's most reliable source (notice how I said RELIABLE and not ONLY) of healing amounts to a total of 20k morale on a 30s CD and 18k morale on a 1min CD.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Considering 5/6 tank classes don't emphasise absurd groupwide support we can kinda observe that it is in fact not how tanks in this game work. It is the way one of them works and it's fairly disputed whether even that one should be capable of what it does.

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All tanks in this game offer varying levels of "support", that is something you cannot dispute, however hard you might try. One of the 5 offers more support than the rest of them. We disagree on principle alone - I and others believe all tanks should offer more support in their role, and Captain should be tuned down in its level of survivability, as well as hoping for better content design which has prevented other tanks from participating - you on the other hand don't believe tanks should offer any support at all, which is in direct contradiction with almost every single spec in the game, tank, dps, healing or otherwise (I can think of maybe 3 who do not offer some form of group wide support) - and that the content is completely fine as it is (which everyone but you seems to disagree with).

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

It is the way one of them works and it's fairly disputed whether even that one should be capable of what it does.

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So no, it isn't the way "one of them works" and its working this way is not disputed, you dispute it.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

So go get some perspective.

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I have perspective. You on the other hand need to recognise what game it is you're playing and become a realist.