Where do we go from here?

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Thanks for clearing that up. There isn't any intention of increasing vitality or morale on the starter gear right now.

This is certainly something that we can look at moving forward, but there would likely be other stat adjustments made to the gear to accommodate an alteration in the vitality and morale.

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It's not only vitality and morale. If we look at it from an offensive perspective, there are some crucial stats that increasing audacity by itself will not affect.

For example, finesse, critical rating and critical damage are all very significant in determining how much damage you can do, but are unaffected by audacity. On freeps, anything less than 25% finesse even results in a lot of block, parry and evade from the enemy, which makes it extremely difficult to do any substantial amount of damage.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

We have this asymmetrical problem with levelling where, as you astutely point out, creeps would only have to do this once per alt and freeps would have to do it every level or iLevel bump per alt - unless we added in another levelling vector for creeps to go through at level bumps.

We are debating now what that solution is and the discussions about PvMP missions, potential allegiances, and the like all tie into that discussion.

Bottom line, we do not want to keep the asymmetrical advancement in place because it creates too many headaches. So we are working on a solution.

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If possible, I would urge you to prioritize solutions that do not increase grind for either side. More grind and a greater disparity between new and veteran players is not something I think anyone ideally wants.

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Originally Posted by ithinkiamserious

One of the major problems with PvP that makes balancing so difficult is that the freep grind is still tremendous. Even if t4 gear were free and everything else remains as it is now, I think creeps would continue to dominate the map and the majority of fights. This is because even if freeps have max aud, they are pretty useless without legendaries, trait points, and virtues, and this assumes the player has also leveled to 140.

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This is a very important point. It's an age-old problem that continues to this day. I'm not sure what/if anything can be done about it, but I think something that would improve it would greatly enhance the experience for freeps, and especially new freeps, in PvMP.

My initial thoughts on replacing freep audacity gear at a new level cap or iLevel (not entirely sure what that is but Orion said it so it must be a thing) panned out in my head something like this....
Create some mechanism for returning previous audacity gear that was traded via Comms for a proportion of those Comms returned to your wallet or 'buffer area' for further purchases. I'm thinking 75/80% return value. This would recognise the work already invested to achieve comms for gear but also necessitate some additional work to fully gear up at the new equipment level. I see this as a trade off between the grind required by players and the commercial requirements of a company that needs revenue and profit. Were this to be the basis of aquiring new gear it obviously creates problems/opportunities....

1. A player with lots of alts could trade in multiple pieces and fully gear one alt 'from the word go' as it were. Some people may complain. However, they have earned those pieces across the account. Furthermore , having a few players geared to the max immediately in a raid/froup would mitigate the diiferences of 'update imbalance' where the creeps are in an advantage early on , or the other way around for that matter depending upon the settings chosen by SSG.

2. If a freep feels they have tired of playing a certain class and want an exciting change of play .....they could use this mechanism to switch gear in one easy session and at least hit the moors with some semblance of competitiveness and only a minor push to max out gear. This could help to keep players engaged in the zone.

3. If a freep feels that their build is incorrect they can correct it at minimal cost instead of putting up with it. Those with gear on alts could also cash in pieces to supply 'swap' pieces to tweak the build according to traitline. The idea of trying a set up and changing it becomes a reality.

4. Instead of the historical highly variable signwave of power flows back and forth a trade in system could facilitate a much tighter and less peaky signwave flow of power and allow maybe tighter brackets on stats all round and the possibility of that H*** Grail 'balance in the moors'.

These are just thoughts...please dont be too critical of me !!
and Orion...your last response ...thank you it was very gracious of you.

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Originally Posted by Xerxes2007

Thanks for your reply and I'm not going to be one of those guys that unloads on you for telling me something I don't want to hear. But I am going to keep it real with you and tell you that an audacity increase alone isn't going to fix the problem you are attempting to address. Any amount of focus fire assuming a certain level players doing it will defeat audacity. The issue has more to do with how players can easily identify the low audacity players and target them accordingly. This is done through the amount of morale. If the purple gear player is still the one getting targeted first and repeatedly, them knowing they have more audacity isn't going to make them want to play any more.

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I have to chime in here and say that even if morale was roughly the same, rank can always be used to define the squishies.
If they are under rank 5 then it is easily assumed they have t1 gear, even up to rank 7 or 8 or so can defined as "potentially hasn't got max t4 gear".
But even then, there will always be priority targets, many times it's more important to deal with a healer or a subdue a really nasty dpser then clean up the squishier targets a bit later in the fight. And you also have to consider that traditionally it was just as easy for freeps to pick out the weak creeps based on rank.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

No, I was really just not connecting the morale issue. But, going back and rereading my response to your initial question on Audacity - I may cheaped out on the answer.

The answer is a little more complex than just pushing audacity onto gear and forcing the grind for both Freep and Creeps. Your question is completely valid, and I apologize for not spending more time on answering. So here, is a more complete answer.

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Why don't you flip this on its head? You could have all creeps and freeps start at max audacity and gear stats but introduce a decaying factor - whereas if you keep playing it remains the high but with less use, lets say over time or defeat possibly, then the stats and audacity drop and need again to be earned through actually playing PVP and not gaining tokens?

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

This comes up often in our discussions. We want to, it is on a wants board...but no movement yet.

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I think it was a mistake making the moors gear gated to the moors, if you look at the numbers of people actively playing PVP before the change you will that it actually attracted people to the moors.

Can we look at making the moors gear not gated to the moors again ?

I miss Wardens Threat being tied to gambits as that took knowledge of the class and the Gambits to provide the the threat needed for single target or multiple target.
Even though it seems threat has been simplified as it is now attached to DPS but since Wardens DPS is not TOP tier it seems easy for others to pull it. Also Wardens are still squishy

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Originally Posted by archereo

I think it was a mistake making the moors gear gated to the moors, if you look at the numbers of people actively playing PVP before the change you will that it actually attracted people to the moors.

Can we look at making the moors gear not gated to the moors again ?

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so getting to rank 3 (2750) infamy/renown is too much of a farm to get to wear t4 gear? it took me 30 minutes to get to r3 on a guardian. yeah getting the comms is a pain, but not hard to get. Farming gear in pve is just as tasking.. so don't see this as an issue

we all want a nice skill vs skill, play/counter play pvmp experience.

LAG prevents that, please fix, otherwise every point made re: gameplay is moot.

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Originally Posted by Accomp

so getting to rank 3 (2750) infamy/renown is too much of a farm to get to wear t4 gear? it took me 30 minutes to get to r3 on a guardian. yeah getting the comms is a pain, but not hard to get. Farming gear in pve is just as tasking.. so don't see this as an issue

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missing the point mate, what i am saying is do not gear gate the moors gear... have it usable in PVE as well as PVP

I have never played a creep for any extended period of time, but I would like to, however I don't see a benefit to doing so when the freep leveling/end-game experience is already such a grind. I feel like I'm wasting my time that I could be improving my Freep. Destiny is obviously worthless, but last I knew that was the only thing that carried over between Freep/Creep. Something that would benefit my freep, in PvE (as in outside of the 'Moors only), would be a possible incentive to get some newer players out there on creep side?

Probably not a popular idea.

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Originally Posted by OG_Henny_Loug

I have never played a creep for any extended period of time, but I would like to, however I don't see a benefit to doing so when the freep leveling/end-game experience is already such a grind. I feel like I'm wasting my time that I could be improving my Freep. Destiny is obviously worthless, but last I knew that was the only thing that carried over between Freep/Creep. Something that would benefit my freep, in PvE (as in outside of the 'Moors only), would be a possible incentive to get some newer players out there on creep side?

Probably not a popular idea.

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Destiny points were removed many many years ago from pvmp.

Settled on and just checked in a change to Audacity gear for the Free People side that sets the armor from T1-T3 to a base of 18 Audacity for all the gear. If you add the Jewelry in you can get to 26.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Settled on and just checked in a change to Audacity gear for the Free People side that sets the armor from T1-T3 to a base of 18 Audacity for all the gear. If you add the Jewelry in you can get to 26.

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Please don't take this as a snarky response, because it isn't. But the lack of responses to your post might be indicative of how non helpful this change is. It's a half measure at best. That purple gear is garbage, even with more audacity. I don't understand why we need all or any of this tiered gear.

Hi Orion,

Dunno if Im writing on the right thread or not but could you please take a look at brands and their immunity?
Neither warleader's "Purge" nor Akúlhun's brand works at the moment. Both of them shakes off stuns/slows etc. but neither of them gives us immunity for these (not againts slows thats 100%, they might give immunity for stuns but Im not sure)

Please take a look at the warleader's "Purge" skill and brand.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Melkori

Hi Orion,

Dunno if Im writing on the right thread or not but could you please take a look at brands and their immunity?
Neither warleader's "Purge" nor Akúlhun's brand works at the moment. Both of them shakes off stuns/slows etc. but neither of them gives us immunity for these (not againts slows thats 100%, they might give immunity for stuns but Im not sure)

Please take a look at the warleader's "Purge" skill and brand.

Thank you.

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For brands and insignias the immunity "works" just some slows will bypass it sometimes, typically those that are in "queue" such as ones with long animations and/or inductions. Hindershot, quickshot, bladetoss, and cry of the wizards are big offenders.

And then there is champs duel :rolleyes:

There is a likely change going to make it to Bullroarer that will increase the cooldown on map usage for creeps to a min of 10 minutes. To compensate, March! would get an increase to 45% boost and War-leader's Mobilise! will stay 55%

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

There is a likely change going to make it to Bullroarer that will increase the cooldown on map usage for creeps to a min of 10 minutes. To compensate, March! would get an increase to 45% boost and War-leader's Mobilise! will stay 55%

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10% speed buff for just 5 mins more cd? 20 mins and it would make more sense to me.

Upcoming change that will address the magical removal of all Ettenmoors armor when logging into the game.

All armor and jewelry earned through PvMP is no longer restricted to use in the Ettenmoors.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

All armor and jewelry earned through PvMP is no longer restricted to use in the Ettenmoors.

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:O
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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

There is a likely change going to make it to Bullroarer that will increase the cooldown on map usage for creeps to a min of 10 minutes. To compensate, March! would get an increase to 45% boost and War-leader's Mobilise! will stay 55%

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So good maps are being increased to have the same cooldown as poor maps. At the other end of the scale, will crude maps also be reduced to 10 minutes?

Map placement has always been an issue, with two of the most useful maps for questing sharing a 30 min cd while many good/poor maps go unused. Ideally the placement of various maps needs to be adjusted and a few more added to cover dead spots, perhaps by using meta deeds for having all good/poor/crude maps.

As for the move buff, it won't help. Any nerf to maps forces creeps into overland travel where no matter what their move bonus is they're still at a huge disadvantage. Freeps have always been able to choose whether to engage or avoid a fight, and there's nothing creeps can do about it. Forcing creeps into overland travel just removes the one safe form of travel they had while placing them completely at the mercy of any freeps in the area. I've said it before; freeps have tactical movement and creeps have strategic movement, and the asymmetry is essential for pvp.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Settled on and just checked in a change to Audacity gear for the Free People side that sets the armor from T1-T3 to a base of 18 Audacity for all the gear. If you add the Jewelry in you can get to 26.

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What about lower level gear?

It's a terrible idea for anyone under 131 to be in the moors, but I see quite a few people doing it anyway. Even with top gear for their level the scaling just doesn't work, and the lack of available audacity is a further huge disadvantage. There's still older pvp armor/weapons available to barter at the various class NPCs. It would be great if the rank requirements on those were reduced drastically or even eliminated, and the audacity per piece raised dramatically since they can't get jewellery/essences/other sources of aud, only what the few low level armor pieces give.

Higher stats on low level pvp gear would also be nice, so that they had appropriate stats after scaling. Unfortunately that would require making them so high that it would cause huge balance issues in pve, since we're about to be able to wear pvp gear on landscape again. Still, it would have been a nice bandaid fix til scaling worked properly.

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Originally Posted by Ameranth

What about lower level gear?

It's a terrible idea for anyone under 131 to be in the moors, but I see quite a few people doing it anyway. Even with top gear for their level the scaling just doesn't work, and the lack of available audacity is a further huge disadvantage. There's still older pvp armor/weapons available to barter at the various class NPCs. It would be great if the rank requirements on those were reduced drastically or even eliminated, and the audacity per piece raised dramatically since they can't get jewellery/essences/other sources of aud, only what the few low level armor pieces give.

Higher stats on low level pvp gear would also be nice, so that they had appropriate stats after scaling. Unfortunately that would require making them so high that it would cause huge balance issues in pve, since we're about to be able to wear pvp gear on landscape again. Still, it would have been a nice bandaid fix til scaling worked properly.

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The Ettenmoors is meant for cap level. Entering the Ettenmoors under-levelled is done at the player risk.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

The Ettenmoors is meant for cap level. Entering the Ettenmoors under-levelled is done at the player risk.

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It is but it really shouldn't be. One of the best things you can do for the long term success of the moors is lower the barrier to entry for freeps, especially for less populated servers where it's sometimes hard to get enough freeps to come out and participate. You've done a fantastic job lowering the barrier to entry for new creeps, but on the freepside there is a second barrier to entry which includes 140 levels and a massive virtue grind and LI grind (trait points are thankfully being improved with the next update).

For a new player experiencing LOTRO, it may take a couple weeks of spending time building their character up to start wondering 'how can I participate in PvP?'....the only options this new player will have are to go in and get slaughtered (leaving them with a confusing and negative experience) or to create a creep. Realistically, if a new player wants to get the full LOTRO experience on their main character (no valar, no power leveling) it will take them a year or more to reach the point where they can first step into the Ettenmoors. Ideally, a player should be able to hop into the moors and enjoy PvP after a couple weeks of building up their character, and they should be able to participate in PvP alongside their full PvE leveling experience.


I think you can address scaling in the following ways:

• # of Virtue Points - You could scale a player's virtue when entering the moors so that whatever % they have attained at their level applies to max level. For example, a level 100 has 50 attainable virtue levels, if they have Loyalty at 40 / 50, then they would be scaled to (40 / 50) * Current Max.

• # of Trait Points - Grant players the max # of trait points when they step into the moors. Now that trait points are tied to level, if you scale a player to 140 they should simply enter with all their points to spend.

• Available Skills - Some skills are acquired when you hit a certain level, just make them all available to any player that gets scaled to 140 when entering the moors.

• Gear - Already taken care of with PvMP gear.

• Legendary Items - This would be the most challenging problem to solve, I see three solutions. You can either disable LI's in the Moors and provide PvMP specific weapons, you can create PvMP specific LI's that would be preferential to use over standard LI's in the moors, or you can rework the existing LI system to allow players to have the same # of tracery slots across all level caps and simply scale the tracery level up when stepping into the moors.


I know it's oversimplifying to say 'just give everyone max trait points' because what happens when they leave the moors? I do think having clear separation through the UI between PvE and PvMP set-ups would go a long way in helping. For example having separate tabs for multiple gear set ups (similar to cosmetic outfits), so players can tab into their PvMP build whenever they are in the moors. Perhaps something similar could be set up with trait configurations, or even LI's.

I think making PvMP accessible to all freeps, including low levels and legendary server players, would go a long way in improving the new user experience and in maintaining a healthy population from both sides in the Moors.

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Originally Posted by Strider5548

I think you can address scaling in the following ways:

• # of Virtue Points - You could scale a player's virtue when entering the moors so that whatever % they have attained at their level applies to max level. For example, a level 100 has 50 attainable virtue levels, if they have Loyalty at 40 / 50, then they would be scaled to (40 / 50) * Current Max.

• # of Trait Points - Grant players the max # of trait points when they step into the moors. Now that trait points are tied to level, if you scale a player to 140 they should simply enter with all their points to spend.

• Available Skills - Some skills are acquired when you hit a certain level, just make them all available to any player that gets scaled to 140 when entering the moors.

• Gear - Already taken care of with PvMP gear.

• Legendary Items - This would be the most challenging problem to solve, I see three solutions. You can either disable LI's in the Moors and provide PvMP specific weapons, you can create PvMP specific LI's that would be preferential to use over standard LI's in the moors, or you can rework the existing LI system to allow players to have the same # of tracery slots across all level caps and simply scale the tracery level up when stepping into the moors.

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I don't see them being able to do any of that without massive amounts of dev time they simply don't have the ability to devote. We already know they cant simply apply and remove trait points without resetting the entire tree as they will be doing in the upcoming update. That alone would likely be a massive amount of work to do. Then do the same for Virtue traits. I am not certain they can do that with Skills as we don't lose any skills when downleveled in Big Battles and no skills are added when upleveled in Big Battles. And as for LIs they probably wouldn't do that for the same reason Moors gear is no longer auto unequipped, simply too much hassle for players.

If they were to spend an obscene amount of time on Freeps, I still would rather they remove player characters from the moors and set up a "Freep same as Creep" equivalent thereby allowing easy balance changes. Fully set the Ettenmoors apart from the rest of the game instead of the half done job it started out as.

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Originally Posted by Ameranth

So good maps are being increased to have the same cooldown as poor maps. At the other end of the scale, will crude maps also be reduced to 10 minutes?

Map placement has always been an issue, with two of the most useful maps for questing sharing a 30 min cd while many good/poor maps go unused. Ideally the placement of various maps needs to be adjusted and a few more added to cover dead spots, perhaps by using meta deeds for having all good/poor/crude maps.

As for the move buff, it won't help. Any nerf to maps forces creeps into overland travel where no matter what their move bonus is they're still at a huge disadvantage. Freeps have always been able to choose whether to engage or avoid a fight, and there's nothing creeps can do about it. Forcing creeps into overland travel just removes the one safe form of travel they had while placing them completely at the mercy of any freeps in the area. I've said it before; freeps have tactical movement and creeps have strategic movement, and the asymmetry is essential for pvp.

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You are right, this is a nerf to creepside. I'm sure Orion has already planned to give classes like defiler a ranged interrupt to dismount freeps on horses so they cant just get away. Or at least I would hope so.