Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Captain

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Touching on the doubt side of things, after seeing how you have been basically railing on the class and fighting any and all changes to it since HD B2, even after it took several turns for the better with each additional update, it quickly gave the feeling that your mindset was basically "it changed now it sucks", rather than "how can we make this better?". That my desktop fried itself in late November, and my laptop can't effectively do LotRO, isn't helping with the **ARG** factor here.

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To be honest, in B2 "now it sucks" was a fair description. And it wasnt much better in B3 and 4 from what I recall.

However I have tried to include suggestions at each point, the fact that my phrasing wasn't gushing with positivity is irrelevant. A number of my suggestions were taken up (whether they were already planned or a direct result of my suggestions I cannot be sure). The captain is in a better place because of those suggestions, and I intend to keep working on improving the captain through suggestions.

I am sorry to hear about your computer issues, I would probably have a nervous breakdown if I didn't have regular access to a decent gaming PC.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Classes split into 3 traitlines, only 2 specs unlocked for VIPs, blatant money grab here.

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Two comments on that one:
a) they need to make money, this is a "convenience" thing and is part of their current business model. Call it a money grab if you like, it is the F2P model. This aspect doesn't outrage me personally, though the price point was set oddly high (IMHO) for a per-character enhancement.
b) I bet VERY few people bother with the 3rd spec. Hard core folks, sure. I got one using my monthly TPs. But even before HD, most more casual folks picked some traits and stuck with them, rarely changing. You could see people who didn't even have all their virtues slotted. Bards weren't frequented. I bet 2 specs is more than enough for most... I'm not bothering with the 3rd HD spec, as I don't find vanguard that useful...

As I get used to the new Capt, don't mind it much. I dislike some of their choices, but some are interesting and I don't mind an occasional shake up. But I do think the Epic Battles are getting old, bugs in game are frustrating, and the game balance is way crocked (6 man thorog without heals? Solo SH or turtle?? MOORS????). Worst for me, the lack of end game instances removes a good part of my motivation to "gear up". Hopefully they will get things together soon. I'm a lifer, so won't leave but can easily see cutting way back on playing time if they don't improve matters.

Apparently playing guide has become "random discussion thread"...

A. Which is why I specifically said VIP. If a monthly sub AND a yearly expansion that cost as much as a full AAA game is not enough money there is a serious problem.

B. As a captain we have 3 very different specs. I dps by default as the buffs are better but if we lack either a healer or tank then the captain is expected to fill that role.

you don't need to be "hardcore" to want to play your class without either a pay wall or deliberately added frustration just to justify the convenience sales...

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

A. Which is why I specifically said VIP. If a monthly sub AND a yearly expansion that cost as much as a full AAA game is not enough money there is a serious problem.

B. As a captain we have 3 very different specs. I dps by default as the buffs are better but if we lack either a healer or tank then the captain is expected to fill that role.

you don't need to be "hardcore" to want to play your class without either a pay wall or deliberately added frustration just to justify the convenience sales...

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I use 3 specs also, yellow for moors and tanking, blue for main healing, red for normal. Fact is, you can heal pretty well with red with some blue added, and get by with 2 specs because of how soft the content is...

And the greed is not a "serious problem" to me, though I accept that others have a different perspective as apparently you do. I have a lifetime acct, and am OK spending my turbine points earned on stuff like this. To me, lack of an interesting end game and buggy content == serious problem. Lack of challenge == serous problem. Slightly greedy choice == minor irritation at best. Could they give VIPs more for their money? Sure. But is that my personal priority? No. Again though, I recognize that others have different issues than me.

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Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

I use 3 specs also, yellow for moors and tanking, blue for main healing, red for normal. Fact is, you can heal pretty well with red with some blue added, and get by with 2 specs because of how soft the content is...

And the greed is not a "serious problem" to me, though I accept that others have a different perspective as apparently you do. I have a lifetime acct, and am OK spending my turbine points earned on stuff like this. To me, lack of an interesting end game and buggy content == serious problem. Lack of challenge == serous problem. Slightly greedy choice == minor irritation at best. Could they give VIPs more for their money? Sure. But is that my personal priority? No. Again though, I recognize that others have different issues than me.

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Indeed the lack of challenge is a serious problem, but I predict that if the game's content were to become more challenging, the problems with the trait system will become more obvious. Before the trait trees, it was relatively simple to swap a couple traits in a given build. With 65 points to spend each time a tree needs to be tweaked, however, this exercise is much more tedious. Having 2 free saved specs is small compensation for this, in my opinion. And if the developers introduce content challenging enough to require careful traiting, the price of the 3rd saved spec will provoke much wailing* in these forums.

One solution to this would be to allow players to subtract spent trait points without resetting the entire setup, but the developers seem to be opposed to this (at least that's the gist I gleaned from beta). I don't know whether the motivation is the difficulty of producing this feature, or whether it is to encourage players to spend more turbine points on saved specs.



*I also predict that making the content more challenging will cause other flaws in the trait trees to become more obvious, such as the crude over-specialization of certain classes' roles (e.g. champions' ST vs. AoE trees and inability of captains and champions to off-tank while not specced for tanking), and the extreme constraints in the trees' topology. I'm all for challenging gameplay, but if the challenge includes careful optimization of the trait budget, I might find something more fun to do with my spare time.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

But the herald is a big improvement. It's an improvement over the original herald, and it's an improvement over choosing between banner or herald, and it's an improvement over a banner alone. So ya, it is an improvement. The problem that you are having is not with the herald but with no longer having the old style banner, which is a reasonable gripe, but put the blame where it is due.

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I disagree. The herald is improved over the old herald, but I liked playing with a banner.

For solo play, can't we just have the ability to shield-brother ourselves and not have to deal with a pesky NPC in order to have access to our skills? As an aside, this would also eliminate the need for the X-bro skills to apply to our target and ourselves. If this were coupled with the ability to choose which X-bro skill we wanted, we would be able to choose to buff ourselves for our role or buff someone else (eg. the healer when we are tanking).

For group play, I probably won't even summon the herald in challenging environments. The buff is ok, but not great enough to make me trust my herald's AI.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Touching on the doubt side of things, after seeing how you have been basically railing on the class and fighting any and all changes to it since HD B2, even after it took several turns for the better with each additional update, it quickly gave the feeling that your mindset was basically "it changed now it sucks", rather than "how can we make this better?". That my desktop fried itself in late November, and my laptop can't effectively do LotRO, isn't helping with the **ARG** factor here.

Going back to the armaments, I've wondered if the lack of herald armor on the banners aren't a pretty major factor with the perception that heralds are flimsy. IMO, we need to have a complete cycle of items (like the warden carvings) that allow us to give a specific herald bonus with a specific banner bonus.

As far as DPS goes, the herald should be on par with the skirmish soldiers IMO. That basically means that heralds do meh DPS, but the trait does +uber DPS for the archers and +almostAsUber DPS for the heralds.

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The captain class was a complete disaster in the first few beta rounds. I think this* class has improved to be about 80% as fun as what it was before HD. I am pessimistic that it can be restored fully due to the developers' fervent opposition to restoring the classes' versatility.

But I am hopeful that the new armaments will help with some of the problems the heralds are having now. But this won't solve pathing**.



*The champion and minstrel are still unplayable, IMO. Devs, please get on this.

**You should have taken my advice, devs. ;)

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Originally Posted by dietlbomb

**You should have taken my advice, devs. ;)

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Yes cause clearly we need....

( DEFUN POINT ()
"A language that's basically a problem to deal with until it clicks in your head making the herald problem worse until that happens for the devs."
)
(POINT)


But more to the point..........

#include<iostream>

int main()
{
cout << "However, if you're referring to the algorithms there, I imagine the AI dude already knows them." << endl;
return 0;
}

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Yes cause clearly we need....

( DEFUN POINT ()
"A language that's basically a problem to deal with until it clicks in your head making the herald problem worse until that happens for the devs."
)
(POINT)


But more to the point..........

#include<iostream>

int main()
{
cout << "However, if you're referring to the algorithms there, I imagine the AI dude already knows them." << endl;
return 0;
}

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Actually I was joking. Changing the programming language of game features would be stupider than changing the game's character development paradigm.












But, apart from the Real-time issues, Lisp might be a better choice for game development than freaking C++.

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Originally Posted by dietlbomb

But, apart from the Real-time issues, Lisp might be a better choice for game development than freaking C++.

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Except that it's got a learning curve that makes EVE Online look like a cakewalk =P

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Assuming you aren't the one pulling ofc, then the issue is when you pull a mob, the herald then runs to it, aggroing anything nearby.

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I usually use the archer herald to eliminate this situation, and add to DPS.

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Originally Posted by ssslippy

I have my banner in my ranged slot. From what I understand the armament needs to be equipped for the bonus and summoning with it only changes the look.

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Yes, that's how it works now. I slot an armament, summon the desired Herald, then switch to a banner.

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Originally Posted by auximenes

I usually use the archer herald to eliminate this situation, and add to DPS.


Yes, that's how it works now. I slot an armament, summon the desired Herald, then switch to a banner.

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Heralds still have AI problems -- for example, if you get aggroed while on horseback, once you dismount the herald will occasionally attempt to run back to the mob that aggroed, and he can't be rallied in the process.

Perhaps setting the herald to passive, and toggling off assist mode is the solution? I can't seriously imagine anyone needing herald DPS.

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The champion and minstrel are still unplayable, IMO. Devs, please get on this.

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The Guardian is considerably more unplayable than either of these two, since the block/parry responses blink like Christmas lights.

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Originally Posted by dietlbomb

But, apart from the Real-time issues, Lisp might be a better choice for game development than freaking C++.

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Agreed, but too many under thirty programmers are scared of it, think it's hard, or are otherwise ignorant of it. However look at Lua, similar features to Lisp but is newer and thus not shunned, and some games have had major portion written in it (Baldur's Gate series), not just add-ons.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Except that it's got a learning curve that makes EVE Online look like a cakewalk =P

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Probably the simplest language to learn.

Outstanding issues:

Short buff range of auras, EG herald buff, IDOME, Motivation - Suggested solution would be to make this a skill like our tactics (massive 80m range, duration of say 10 seconds) but is re-triggered every 3 seconds without user input.

Poor herald performance (various) - At level cap DPS is still pathetic and the Heightened Allies trait is effectively worthless compared to almost any other trait even at double the cost - no idea what I can suggest here because something tells me even if the herald does 10 times the DPS it does now (400dps instead of 40!) the pathing is not going to improve and we are stuck with the herald whether we want it or not. There are several AoE skills that kill the herald despite us being told most would not affect it. It cannot be summoned on the move (you have to stand still for the induction). It still suffers various "eye" effects. The only contribution to the playability of the captain is when you want x-brother while soloing, wouldn't a stance do just as well (such as Warspeech used to work for minstrels).

X-brother skills - Lack of flexibility - should be made general skills - why are we buffing other peoples tanking ability when we are in tank stance? Likewise heals? I want to shield brother the tank when I am a healer! I want blade brother always available because more dps = faster runs. I want to song brother when I have a captain tanking and he needs more power, or because I have a full team of minstrels and RKs and LMs who want more tactical mastery.

Tactics buff over-rights tactics of other captains in the group (sometimes? For some reason with Focus/Relentless it didnt seem to over-right, but with On Guard/Relentless the most recent one took precedence). Tactics skills should be more controllable OR stack.

Tactics - on guard - still utterly awful. The only person in the group with power problems is the tank traited captain (so power cost is pointless for 5 out of 6), the parry rating and defence % are only useful if you are taking damage. Of no interest to anyone.

Tactics - focus - 2% tactical mitigation? huh? Incoming healing % isn't really a buff, it's the same as increasing all your heals by a few % (less than 5%, because most people who need healing a lot already have incoming heal %, and going from say 130% to 135% is actually an improvement of approx 3.8%). Yes yes it increases self heals, but seriously?

IMHO reduced length of duration on last stand still makes it pointless, putting it into the tank line is counterproductive and the heal is pathetic. Can we do something with this skill to make it something I will use at some point? A bubble for example?



Not captain specific:

Classes split into 3 traitlines, only 2 specs unlocked for VIPs, blatant money grab here. VIPs should get a free 3rd spec for every character. Then make 4th/5th specs available for sale.

Destiny points removed and never replaced despite sapience saying a new system was in the works.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Short buff range of auras, EG herald buff, IDOME, Motivation - Suggested solution would be to make this a skill like our tactics (massive 80m range, duration of say 10 seconds) but is re-triggered every 3 seconds without user input.

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I feel obliged to argue with passion against the re-triggering buff. I find it one of the most annoying mechanics ever.

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Poor herald performance (various) - At level cap DPS is still pathetic and the Heightened Allies trait is effectively worthless compared to almost any other trait even at double the cost - no idea what I can suggest here because something tells me even if the herald does 10 times the DPS it does now (400dps instead of 40!) the pathing is not going to improve and we are stuck with the herald whether we want it or not. There are several AoE skills that kill the herald despite us being told most would not affect it. It cannot be summoned on the move (you have to stand still for the induction). It still suffers various "eye" effects. The only contribution to the playability of the captain is when you want x-brother while soloing, wouldn't a stance do just as well (such as Warspeech used to work for minstrels).

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I agree that heralds have performance issues.

My suggestion here would be to conceptually do away with the herald as a combat unit, and turn him strictly into a pet that carries a specific type of standard (and provides a corresponding aura), and can cast a limited array of heals and active buffs on the captain. Archer herald will, obviously, be dealt away with. This also means that all modes will be removed, and heralds will be (and remain permanently) in passive/follow mode. Heralds can also get a Withdrawal type of skill for better survivability.

Still not sure what type of buffs would be good to go on a herald -- perhaps add back the old banner bonuses in some form as active buffs? (+ICMR for hope, +ICPR for victory, strength/agility or perhaps physical mastery for war). Those could be perhaps 10s buffs on a 20s cooldown. Perhaps, for an extra twist, Improved Sure Strike could be changed to reduce the cooldown of these buffs, rather than the cooldown of Battle Shout. I'm out of ideas here, but you get where this is going.

This will potentially minimize the awful impacts of the herald in combat, and can add an interesting twist to the way the Captain uses pets.

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

I feel obliged to argue with passion against the re-triggering buff. I find it one of the most annoying mechanics ever.

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It's not ideal, but we have been told the technology used to make auras is limited to 20m range, which is basically useless for big battles, I was trying to come up with a way to give the buff to people who are further away, since I have been told we will not go back to "apply once, lasts 30 minutes" system.

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

I agree that heralds have performance issues.

My suggestion here would be to conceptually do away with the herald as a combat unit, and turn him strictly into a pet that carries a specific type of standard (and provides a corresponding aura), and can cast a limited array of heals and active buffs on the captain. Archer herald will, obviously, be dealt away with. This also means that all modes will be removed, and heralds will be (and remain permanently) in passive/follow mode. Heralds can also get a Withdrawal type of skill for better survivability.

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I suggested something similar in beta (an oathbreaker herald that did no damage and could not be damaged, he just provided the buffs).

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

It's not ideal, but we have been told the technology used to make auras is limited to 20m range, which is basically useless for big battles, I was trying to come up with a way to give the buff to people who are further away, since I have been told we will not go back to "apply once, lasts 30 minutes" system.

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This makes sense. They have a similar mechanic for some guardian skills, and they annoyed me mightily. Must have been for the same reason.

We used to have auras before (herald, banner), too. I've never noticed them being limited to 20m. Was I just not paying attention, or did they use a different technology?

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

I suggested something similar in beta (an oathbreaker herald that did no damage and could not be damaged, he just provided the buffs).

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Was there any comment?

I don't necessarily like the idea of them taking no damage, since keeping your herald alive adds an interesting twist to captain gameplay. Otherwise the situation is pretty much the same as having an extra self-buff.

As I'm writing this, I get an interesting idea about buffs that interplay with the x-brother skills: herald can "lend" physical or tactical mastery to the captain based on the herald's level own level of said characteristics. Therefore, even though he doesn't have direct offensive contribution to combat, there is still full use of tactics/x-bro skills proc-ing on him.

edit: Perhaps this Herald suggestion merits its own thread, too.

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

This makes sense. They have a similar mechanic for some guardian skills, and they annoyed me mightily. Must have been for the same reason.

We used to have auras before (herald, banner), too. I've never noticed them being limited to 20m. Was I just not paying attention, or did they use a different technology?

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It was less of an issue when the group was not required to split so far appart, however with big battles you regularly have the fellowship, raid, or small fellowship 40+ m away from each other as an intended mechanic. So making MORE of our buffs SHORTER range seemed completely counterproductive to me.

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

Was there any comment?

I don't necessarily like the idea of them taking no damage, since keeping your herald alive adds an interesting twist to captain gameplay. Otherwise the situation is pretty much the same as having an extra self-buff.

As I'm writing this, I get an interesting idea about buffs that interplay with the x-brother skills: herald can "lend" physical or tactical mastery to the captain based on the herald's level own level of said characteristics. Therefore, even though he doesn't have direct offensive contribution to combat, there is still full use of tactics/x-bro skills proc-ing on him.

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No direct response other than the fact that those making the decisions seem to be in favour of the return of the heralds whether we like it or not.

I am against having to keep a pet with about as much survival instinct as Sara Oakheart alive as part of our "class mechanics". As a quest maybe, but not as part of playing the class. We are supposed to be jack of all trades/all rounders with great buffing, but that was removed and replaced with tank/healers with buffs dependent on what we are doing. The pet thing has always been a side show and frankly detracts from the play of the class.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

I am against having to keep a pet with about as much survival instinct as Sara Oakheart alive as part of our "class mechanics". As a quest maybe, but not as part of playing the class.

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If the herald cannot assist/fight this is not an issue -- it's pretty much protecting a (walking) flagpole.

I don't like the idea of modifying the Herald to not be able to be hurt. Unless it's an Oathbreaker or something similar, the Herald standing there not being attackable just doesn't work for me.

As for removing the Herald entirely, I'm completely against that. It's totally relevant to what the Captain stands for, a leader of Men. What could show that leadership more than a Captain directing a Herald?

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

It's not ideal, but we have been told the technology used to make auras is limited to 20m range, which is basically useless for big battles,

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Depends on which part of the big battles. For control points in helm's dike for instance the soldiers are always fighting about in the same area. But I don't think buffs apply to soldiers so that doesn't matter anyway. For group play everyone is so spread out that buffs won't work anyway; even in the old system you can't put a banner everywhere, but you could keep the crit buff up. I don't think buffs in big battles are that important overall and big battles themselves are just a side game being run less often that instances. The buffs in instances seem to be working better, as players do stick relatively close to each other for the most part.

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Originally Posted by auximenes

I don't like the idea of modifying the Herald to not be able to be hurt. Unless it's an Oathbreaker or something similar, the Herald standing there not being attackable just doesn't work for me.

As for removing the Herald entirely, I'm completely against that. It's totally relevant to what the Captain stands for, a leader of Men. What could show that leadership more than a Captain directing a Herald?

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My biggest concern with the suggestion of making the Herald not able to be hurt in certain circumstances is how easily it just screams 'exploitable' to me and what sort of questions is raises. For example, when would the herald be damage immune? When could you switch it? Would this break group content? Would the buffs retain the same degree of potency?

Also, don't forget. The Captain can be a leader of dwarves and Oathbreakers as well. :)

Edit: dwarves? dwarfs? I can never remember which is the correct Tolkien pluralization.

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Originally Posted by RockX

Also, don't forget. The Captain can be a leader of dwarves and Oathbreakers as well. :)

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I didn't realise that this had been fixed yet - I thought that if equipped a banner (which naturally anyone of high rank would), then we couldn't customise the way the herald looked? Or did I miss out on a change?

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Originally Posted by RockX

Edit: dwarves? dwarfs? I can never remember which is the correct Tolkien pluralization.

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According to my copy of the hobbit, "dwarfs" is the correct pluralization :)

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Originally Posted by Lohi

Depends on which part of the big battles. For control points in helm's dike for instance the soldiers are always fighting about in the same area. But I don't think buffs apply to soldiers so that doesn't matter anyway. For group play everyone is so spread out that buffs won't work anyway; even in the old system you can't put a banner everywhere, but you could keep the crit buff up. I don't think buffs in big battles are that important overall and big battles themselves are just a side game being run less often that instances. The buffs in instances seem to be working better, as players do stick relatively close to each other for the most part.

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It's nothing to do with soldiers.

Previously:

Tactics and Motivation buffs were long duration (30 mins). IDOME was medium duration (5 mins). The group did not need to be near you after you had applied them, so if the group needed to split up to achieve objectives they got to keep the captain buffs (for a while at least).

Now:

Motivation and IDOME are a 20m aura, Tactics is an 80m burst effect with a short duration (30 seconds, -45 seconds with a fully upgraded LI legacy).

BUT ALL THE NEW GROUP CONTENT REQUIRES THE GROUP TO SPLIT UP TO BE SUCCESSFUL!

So basically our skills have been developed in the opposite direction that the content is going.

Why?

No one has actually answered that as yet.

EDIT:

The new "Standard of..." buffs are actually an even smaller area. And because they hit a mob, basically the hunter/RK/DPS Minstrel must now be practically within melee range to receive the buffs.
The same applies to heralds vs Banners, since the herald almost always ends up in melee, the aura extending from them is centered closer to the mobs. Previously a captain would plant banners in the middle of the room or similar, rather than in melee.

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Originally Posted by RockX

My biggest concern with the suggestion of making the Herald not able to be hurt in certain circumstances is how easily it just screams 'exploitable' to me and what sort of questions is raises. For example, when would the herald be damage immune? When could you switch it? Would this break group content? Would the buffs retain the same degree of potency?

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Make the "walking banner" herald an alternate summon. It provides a greater buff (to compensate for the lost DPS provided by the fighting herald), but basically has all the combat ability of a banner, IE it does not have a morale bar, does not deal or take damage. You can only have one pet summoned at a time, so basically you choose when you summon it, and will need to dismiss previous pet to change. Or if the tech is up to it, make it a specific armament / banner / captain class item that modifies your summons as described above.

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

If the herald cannot assist/fight this is not an issue -- it's pretty much protecting a (walking) flagpole.

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I don't understand what you are saying here. EG you would be ok with an invulnerable herald as long as it cannot deal damage? I thought thats what I was asking for.

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Originally Posted by auximenes

I don't like the idea of modifying the Herald to not be able to be hurt. Unless it's an Oathbreaker or something similar, the Herald standing there not being attackable just doesn't work for me.

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The original suggestion was the Oathbreaker variant.

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Originally Posted by auximenes

As for removing the Herald entirely, I'm completely against that. It's totally relevant to what the Captain stands for, a leader of Men. What could show that leadership more than a Captain directing a Herald?

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I don't think anyone is asking for the complete removal of the herald. I am asking for an ALTERNATIVE for those of us that hate the things.

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Originally Posted by RockX

My biggest concern with the suggestion of making the Herald not able to be hurt in certain circumstances is how easily it just screams 'exploitable' to me and what sort of questions is raises. For example, when would the herald be damage immune? When could you switch it? Would this break group content? Would the buffs retain the same degree of potency?

Also, don't forget. The Captain can be a leader of dwarves and Oathbreakers as well. :)

Edit: dwarves? dwarfs? I can never remember which is the correct Tolkien pluralization.

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D0rfs.

(Actually, dwarves).

Please bring back cosmetics for heralds but not at the expense of banner slots :)

I just want the old plantable banner that was dependable and imo way more effective than using a derpy pet which I refuse to use even when soloing the moors.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

I don't understand what you are saying here. EG you would be ok with an invulnerable herald as long as it cannot deal damage? I thought thats what I was asking for.

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In my mind, a lot of the fragility of the current version of the herald is due of how he attacks/assists. If you turn him into a wallflower, and give the captain a threat transfer skill, he could be defensible.

My suggestion was to strip the herald of his mellee attacks (so he doesn't deal damage, but has buffs to provide instead), but still leave it so that he can take damage, so that you have to actually work on protection in order to have buffs available for you. An invulnerable herald is just easymode and pretty much the same as giving said buff buttons to the Captain.

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Originally Posted by IzzyJ83

I just want the old plantable banner that was dependable and imo way more effective than using a derpy pet which I refuse to use even when soloing the moors.

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I would prefer the banner myself, but I was given the distinct impression that it is not an option :(

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

In my mind, a lot of the fragility of the current version of the herald is due of how he attacks/assists. If you turn him into a wallflower, and give the captain a threat transfer skill, he could be defensible.

My suggestion was to strip the herald of his mellee attacks (so he doesn't deal damage, but has buffs to provide instead), but still leave it so that he can take damage, so that you have to actually work on protection in order to have buffs available for you. An invulnerable herald is just easymode and pretty much the same as giving said buff buttons to the Captain.

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I would contest that an invulnerable herald is just a way of having a herald without actually having to be a pet class, because banners are not an option. Giving back the banners, or buff buttons to the captain would also be better.

I dislike pets, and I am not alone. I think the herald is not, and has never been an integral part of the class. Instead it is some half-worked cludge to let captains use group skills (EG words of courage is useless to the solo player without a herald even before the x-brother skills) that never really worked and has been unpopular since... well always? The first lotro raid had Zaudrus green and Thorogs purple eyes, and guess what, the pets were banned from it because they killed the group!

I don't know why you consider non-pet classes "easymode", and frankly I don't care. Captains have three distinct roles that work now (DPS, Healing, Tanking) along with buffing which works sometimes depending on the trait spec and group makeup. We don't need pets as well.

Take the herald out back, shoot him and bury him IMHO.

BUT since that isnt going to happen, I will keep making suggestions that minimise its (negative) impact on my gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist

I didn't realise that this had been fixed yet - I thought that if equipped a banner (which naturally anyone of high rank would), then we couldn't customise the way the herald looked? Or did I miss out on a change?

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Equip the armaments, summon the herald, then equip the banner and you get to keep the herald cosmetics.

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Originally Posted by Cazthelm

According to my copy of the hobbit, "dwarfs" is the correct pluralization :)

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According to my copy of the Hobbit, "dwarfs" is the correct pluralization but Tolkien decided that in Middle Earth, he was going to use "dwarves", darn it. He had some sort of justification that slips my mind.

Yes, Dwarves is indeed the correct spelling in the Tolkien world.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

I don't know why you consider non-pet classes "easymode", and frankly I don't care.

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I don't consider non-pet classes easymode. I consider giving the captain a bunch of new buffs without the player having to put any effort in making them available is easymode. This has nothing to do with pets.

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

I don't consider non-pet classes easymode. I consider giving the captain a bunch of new buffs without the player having to put any effort in making them available is easymode. This has nothing to do with pets.

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I am not asking for "a bunch of new buffs", I am asking for the return of something like the banner style approach. The reason my suggestions are not "bring back banners" is because we have been told that isnt going to happen. So I am trying to come up with alternative solutions and compromises that won't annoy me as much to use.

Using heralds right now does not require skill, it requires luck and/or patience. You can use a herald on Thorog, or the Lieutenant or any other instance with an Eye style mechanic if you get lucky enough, or do enough runs that you get through it. Or you can EDIT *removed to avoid mentioning potential exploit involving pets*

Likewise in situations where the aoe kills the herald (Iorbars peak for example) you can spend ages positioning the herald just right (so you get the buff) but making sure that it never gets into combat, or you can use it as a combat pet and be resigned to summoning it again 3-4 times. Or you can do it without the buff at all with far less hassle.

There is no skill to using a herald. So an alternative to the herald cannot be considered "easymode".

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

I am not asking for "a bunch of new buffs", I am asking for the return of something like the banner style approach. The reason my suggestions are not "bring back banners" is because we have been told that isnt going to happen. So I am trying to come up with alternative solutions and compromises that won't annoy me as much to use.

Using heralds right now does not require skill, it requires luck and/or patience. You can use a herald on Thorog, or the Lieutenant or any other instance with an Eye style mechanic if you get lucky enough, or do enough runs that you get through it. Or you can EDIT *removed to avoid mentioning potential exploit involving pets*

Likewise in situations where the aoe kills the herald (Iorbars peak for example) you can spend ages positioning the herald just right (so you get the buff) but making sure that it never gets into combat, or you can use it as a combat pet and be resigned to summoning it again 3-4 times. Or you can do it without the buff at all with far less hassle.

There is no skill to using a herald. So an alternative to the herald cannot be considered "easymode".

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There is enough skill in using a herald when he's active-buffing and when you have to keep him alive.

I'm not concerned about banners (or the herald's resemblance thereof), I'm concerned about the herald having useful functionality while not being an annoying drag. My full suggestion is further down in the forums.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

There is enough skill in using a herald when he's active-buffing and when you have to keep him alive.

I'm not concerned about banners (or the herald's resemblance thereof), I'm concerned about the herald having useful functionality while not being an annoying drag. My full suggestion is further down in the forums.

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I disagree. Heralds do not "active buff" at the moment, nor do they need to, that is our job as the captain, not the job of the unpaid peasant with a flagpole. There is no skill in their handling as I have shown, keeping him a life is a matter of position and forget or resummon every time he dies. I read your suggestions, and it seems you are the one asking for new buffs, not me! You are attempting to increase the role of the herald while keeping its worst issues, and basically asking for the complete opposite of what I suggested. If the herald is to be tied to a (single) buff and a fairly pathetic self heal, there should be an alternative method that does not involve dealing with the NOT FUN but instead ANNOYING aspects of that pet. You wish to keep a buffstick that dies. Let me explain again:

Any defensive buff on a herald is like a chocolate fireguard. If the whole group needs a (damage reduction/extra morale/extra mitigations) buff instead of extra damage/power cost reduction the reason is because the whole group is taking damage. Including the herald. At the moment, the herald drops in seconds, and the buff goes with it. Just like a fireguard made out of a substance with a low melting point, it is not helpful, instead it is just annoying because you need to clean up after it melts (by resummoning the herald) when you should be putting out the fire (healing/tanking/dpsing depending on your role).

We do not need more buffs, we just need better access to the ones we already have! EG x-brother not limited by trait line! ditto with Tactics! Or ofc you could make it so the Tactics buffs are context sensitive instead of being a one size sucks for 2/3rds of your fellowship.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

Equip the armaments, summon the herald, then equip the banner and you get to keep the herald cosmetics.

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Aye. Which, for the record, is a workaround that's been possible since HD launch, not the permanent fix that RockX promised us will be coming. :)

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

I disagree.

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I have no idea how you manage, since so far you've appeared genuinely disinterested in even trying to figure out what exactly I'm suggesting.

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

I have no idea how you manage, since so far you've appeared genuinely disinterested in even trying to figure out what exactly I'm suggesting.

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Let me deconstruct.
1. Making the herald do no damage, but still being vulnerable to attacks (OK, so far this means there is even less reason to keep this thing around, all the bad stuff of a melee pet with no melee bonus!)

2. New fellowship buff - Raise banner (ok, why are we doing new buffs again?)

3. New personal buff - Lend x (So basically replacing herald DPS with a buff to captain DPS, and replacing the current heals with a more flexible power OR morale heal)

Blahblah traits relating to the above.

4. ANOTHER new herald skill giving it a defensive buff (uh... to give you more buttons to press when dealing with the stupid thing that isnt even melee hopefully?)

5. A threat copy for something that does 0 DPS and has 1-2 heal skills that are probably going to be for small amounts or on long cooldowns (this will effectively do nothing)


Lets look at my herald issues shall we:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Poor herald performance (various) - At level cap DPS is still pathetic and the Heightened Allies trait is effectively worthless compared to almost any other trait even at double the cost - no idea what I can suggest here because something tells me even if the herald does 10 times the DPS it does now (400dps instead of 40!) the pathing is not going to improve and we are stuck with the herald whether we want it or not. There are several AoE skills that kill the herald despite us being told most would not affect it. It cannot be summoned on the move (you have to stand still for the induction). It still suffers various "eye" effects. The only contribution to the playability of the captain is when you want x-brother while soloing, wouldn't a stance do just as well (such as Warspeech used to work for minstrels).

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So, does this address the herald being sucky at DPS? Maybe, cos it turns their DPS into a buff on the captain. Why not just dump the herald and cut out the middle man?

Does this address the pathing? Nope.

Does this address the herald dying to AoE skills? Well maybe if it is not in melee, but you are still stuck with the annoying "positioning it just right". I'll give you half marks.

Does this address the eye mechanic and the issues it causes with pets? Nope.

So marks out of for? one maybe, one 1/2 and two nopes.

That's how I manage, with LOGIC.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Let me deconstruct.
1. Making the herald do no damage, but still being vulnerable to attacks (OK, so far this means there is even less reason to keep this thing around, all the bad stuff of a melee pet with no melee bonus!)

2. New fellowship buff - Raise banner (ok, why are we doing new buffs again?)

3. New personal buff - Lend x (So basically replacing herald DPS with a buff to captain DPS, and replacing the current heals with a more flexible power OR morale heal)

Blahblah traits relating to the above.

4. ANOTHER new herald skill giving it a defensive buff (uh... to give you more buttons to press when dealing with the stupid thing that isnt even melee hopefully?)

5. A threat copy for something that does 0 DPS and has 1-2 heal skills that are probably going to be for small amounts or on long cooldowns (this will effectively do nothing)


Lets look at my herald issues shall we:



So, does this address the herald being sucky at DPS? Maybe, cos it turns their DPS into a buff on the captain. Why not just dump the herald and cut out the middle man?

Does this address the pathing? Nope.

Does this address the herald dying to AoE skills? Well maybe if it is not in melee, but you are still stuck with the annoying "positioning it just right". I'll give you half marks.

Does this address the eye mechanic and the issues it causes with pets? Nope.

So marks out of for? one maybe, one 1/2 and two nopes.

That's how I manage, with LOGIC.

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1. Making the herald do no damage means he doesn't assist and he doesn't unnecessarily aggro stuff when you pull. People have complained about this

2. This buff is intended to replace the aura, since the technical difficulties behind the aura range appear to be well documented.

3. Is "blahblahblah" supposed to be some form of "logic" I do not understand? I'm finding it hard to follow your critique there -- I actually consider the buffs "less" flexible, because buffing the captain makes it harder to keep the herald alive (since he's spending his own morale/power).

4. What you call a "defensive" buff is herald utility. A herald can't cast when he's dazed/stunned.

5. The idea behind this skill is to provide an oh-snap button when your herald gets jumped while you're out of combat by something that can take him away quickly (and this can be very quickly, given that the herald uses his own health to heal the captain).

To me, it looks like you'd like to have good utility from the pet, while not doing any work to keep this utility available. That's unlikely to happen, as it's never been the case before, neither for heralds (heralds could die), nor for standards (standards were on a timer/cooldown).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

1. Making the herald do no damage means he doesn't assist and he doesn't unnecessarily aggro stuff when you pull. People have complained about this

2. This buff is intended to replace the aura, since the technical difficulties behind the aura range appear to be well documented.

3. Is "blahblahblah" supposed to be some form of "logic" I do not understand? I'm finding it hard to follow your critique there -- I actually consider the buffs "less" flexible, because buffing the captain makes it harder to keep the herald alive (since he's spending his own morale/power).

4. What you call a "defensive" buff is herald utility. A herald can't cast when he's dazed/stunned.

5. The idea behind this skill is to provide an oh-snap button when your herald gets jumped while you're out of combat by something that can take him away quickly (and this can be very quickly, given that the herald uses his own health to heal the captain).

To me, it looks like you'd like to have good utility from the pet, while not doing any work to keep this utility available. That's unlikely to happen, as it's never been the case before, neither for heralds (heralds could die), nor for standards (standards were on a timer/cooldown).

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1. This is an improvement, but not a solution since the herald still aggros just by being one extra body that does not exactly follow your footsteps.

2. I see, it wasnt clear it was a replacement. I don't really understand why you want different buffs (the herald buffs are actually not bad atm)

3. The traits thing is basically irrelevant to my points, ofc the traits will need to do something else if the herald does no dps so i just put blahblah to show I am aware but not commenting directly. As for the heals now being "heals" rather than masochistic captain style heals well sure I guess thats an improvement, but I figured they are like that for a reason.

4. The herald is so irrelevant atm I dont _care_ if he is stunned/dazed. And frankly these changes aren't going to make me care.

5. You could just toss a words of courage for the same effect since the herald will produce ZERO threat unless he heals the captain in that time.

I want banners back. I have been told that is not going to happen. So I am asking for a herald as close to banners in functionality as is humanly possible. BANNERS (as opposed to the new standards) cooldown was basically irrelevant (3 seconds?). They had a power cost that was significant, and they lasted 5 minutes before you had to replace them. That worked for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

1. This is an improvement, but not a solution since the herald still aggros just by being one extra body that does not exactly follow your footsteps.

2. I see, it wasnt clear it was a replacement. I don't really understand why you want different buffs (the herald buffs are actually not bad atm)

3. The traits thing is basically irrelevant to my points, ofc the traits will need to do something else if the herald does no dps so i just put blahblah to show I am aware but not commenting directly. As for the heals now being "heals" rather than masochistic captain style heals well sure I guess thats an improvement, but I figured they are like that for a reason.

4. The herald is so irrelevant atm I dont _care_ if he is stunned/dazed. And frankly these changes aren't going to make me care.

5. You could just toss a words of courage for the same effect since the herald will produce ZERO threat unless he heals the captain in that time.

I want banners back. I have been told that is not going to happen. So I am asking for a herald as close to banners in functionality as is humanly possible. BANNERS (as opposed to the new standards) cooldown was basically irrelevant (3 seconds?). They had a power cost that was significant, and they lasted 5 minutes before you had to replace them. That worked for me.

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1. Technically, this is true. In practice, it's been very rare for me that the herald will aggro something unless (1) I jumped off a cliff, or (2) he was trying to assist.

2. Altering the current auras if they convert into buffs isn't technically necessary. But if they're going to be on a cooldown longer than the timer, might as well pump them up a bit.

3. The current Herald traits are irrelevant, because the herald damage is irrelevant. Given the overall reluctance of Turbine to give any sort of relevancy to heralds as melee assist, I thought I'd steer the discussion in a different direction. I feel that if the herald can provide a substantial buff to the captain, as well as a reasonable source of morale and power heals, it may be worth keeping around and traiting for.

4. Right. The main motivation behind trying to churn something out was precisely that the herald is currently quite irrelevant.

5. Fair enough. Consider this a redundancy mechanism then.


I don't particularly want banners back. I play solo a lot and I like to have my x-brother skills. I already think it's great that we can get banner stats _and_ herald utility at the same time. And I think there is enough that can be done with the herald so that he's worth keeping around without being as much of a nuisance as he is right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

1. Technically, this is true. In practice, it's been very rare for me that the herald will aggro something unless (1) I jumped off a cliff, or (2) he was trying to assist.

2. Altering the current auras if they convert into buffs isn't technically necessary. But if they're going to be on a cooldown longer than the timer, might as well pump them up a bit.

3. The current Herald traits are irrelevant, because the herald damage is irrelevant. Given the overall reluctance of Turbine to give any sort of relevancy to heralds as melee assist, I thought I'd steer the discussion in a different direction. I feel that if the herald can provide a substantial buff to the captain, as well as a reasonable source of morale and power heals, it may be worth keeping around and traiting for.

4. Right. The main motivation behind trying to churn something out was precisely that the herald is currently quite irrelevant.

5. Fair enough. Consider this a redundancy mechanism then.


I don't particularly want banners back. I play solo a lot and I like to have my x-brother skills. I already think it's great that we can get banner stats _and_ herald utility at the same time. And I think there is enough that can be done with the herald so that he's worth keeping around without being as much of a nuisance as he is right now.

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1. You obviously don't do the instances where it is possible to avoid some of the fights by hugging a wall IF you unsummon all pets first.

2. I would rather have cooldowns shorter than timers and basically make them work _like_ auras, but with a decent range.

3. I appreciate this is a different approach than my own suggestions *shrugs* But thats basically the opposite to what I would prefer since my issue is not just that heralds are irrelevant, but also that they are _annoying_.

4. Heralds in this case will never have aggro. As such, the only way they will get a stun or mez is if it is an AoE. So rather than a new skill, just tie them to the captains one so they get the benefits at the same time. If it matters that much anyway.

*Shrugs* All my suggestions are for an ALTERNATIVE herald summon (the Oathbreaker summon if you will). I am not saying dump the herald completely, I am saying put in an alternative for us pet-haters.

And as an entirely separate complaint, is it just me or do we have 4 separate "Master of War" buffs with identical or similar icons? That's really annoying!

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

1. You obviously don't do the instances where it is possible to avoid some of the fights by hugging a wall IF you unsummon all pets first.

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Well, I'm not sure being able to skip mobs is intentional in the first place :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

2. I would rather have cooldowns shorter than timers and basically make them work _like_ auras, but with a decent range.

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I guess you're still considering BB as a main issue here? Would it be useful (and possible?) to make the buffs from herald apply to all nearby allied units, including the BB soldiers? That way range won't be a problem IMO because the aura will still affect a lot of allies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

3. I appreciate this is a different approach than my own suggestions *shrugs* But thats basically the opposite to what I would prefer since my issue is not just that heralds are irrelevant, but also that they are _annoying_.

4. Heralds in this case will never have aggro. As such, the only way they will get a stun or mez is if it is an AoE. So rather than a new skill, just tie them to the captains one so they get the benefits at the same time. If it matters that much anyway.

*Shrugs* All my suggestions are for an ALTERNATIVE herald summon (the Oathbreaker summon if you will). I am not saying dump the herald completely, I am saying put in an alternative for us pet-haters.

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Sadly I'm reaching the same conclusions, heralds are becoming more and more annoying for every day. Adding more Herald skills is IMO a waste, might as well just give the Captain himself more/better buffs to offset your suggested Herald skills. If I were to suggest some Herald skills I'd rather see additional skills in terms of controling the herald efficiently, afaik there is not a /follow-target for Heralds? What about making a ground-targeted skill to direct the Herald to go to?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

And as an entirely separate complaint, is it just me or do we have 4 separate "Master of War" buffs with identical or similar icons? That's really annoying!

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Yes! I would really like to see some renaming of some of those buffs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Well, I'm not sure being able to skip mobs is intentional in the first place :P

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Then they shouldnt make patrols with handy side rooms you can duck into while the patrols pass. I am mostly talking about various caves I have explored while leveling rather than regular instances, but I am sure there are regular instances where it applies too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I guess you're still considering BB as a main issue here? Would it be useful (and possible?) to make the buffs from herald apply to all nearby allied units, including the BB soldiers? That way range won't be a problem IMO because the aura will still affect a lot of allies.

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This would be a valid alternative, but frankly much more of a gamechanger for BBs because the NPCs have much more influence on the battle in the main areas, and much less influence in the side quests. As for the tech, I am not sure how it would work. It may even make captains more useful in a raid because it might end up working like Standards so it helps the entire raid/even non-grouped people (within a limited area).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Sadly I'm reaching the same conclusions, heralds are becoming more and more annoying for every day. Adding more Herald skills is IMO a waste, might as well just give the Captain himself more/better buffs to offset your suggested Herald skills. If I were to suggest some Herald skills I'd rather see additional skills in terms of controling the herald efficiently, afaik there is not a /follow-target for Heralds? What about making a ground-targeted skill to direct the Herald to go to?

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*Shrugs* Dump the peasant, give us a real alternative IMHO. Pathing will still be an issue whatever you do.

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Yes! I would really like to see some renaming of some of those buffs.

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And more visual effects for the more important buff (Auto crit on next skill is far more important than 6% crit chance or whatever)

I know what we need, Herald Throw! Just steal the mechanic from Saints Row 2 :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlNSdrwExP0 (lotsa violence)

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I know what we need, Herald Throw! Just steal the mechanic from Saints Row 2 :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlNSdrwExP0 (lotsa violence)

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Let me just give the herald a Dubstep gun while I'm at it.

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Originally Posted by RockX

Let me just give the herald a Dubstep gun while I'm at it.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em4hG_yO7gU

Haha, then we can really show those silly Minstrels how to crush orcs with music :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RockX

Let me just give the herald a Dubstep gun while I'm at it.

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So RockX, while we have your attention, what are your thoughts on the state of the Herald?

Is it a "You are stuck with it, make the best of it" or "I'm already digging a shallow grave"?

Armor set bonus issues:
DN 4-set bonus has the -20% defeat event cooldown (which I'm unsure it should have?) and it reduces RC from 15 sec to 6 seconds, which is a lot more than 20% (it's 20% of the old 45s cooldown though). It also reduces SL cooldown and RoutC cooldown by the "old 20% amounts".

(Greater) Erebor Leader 2-set bonus and Tognir 2-set bonus does not seem to work on Improved Sure Strike (I have not tested with normal Sure Strike).

So RockX no longer works for Turbine, no changes to herald in Bullroarer release notes. No addressing other issues with the class except an adjustment to power costs?

Maintenance mode it is then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

So RockX no longer works for Turbine, no changes to herald in Bullroarer release notes. No addressing other issues with the class except an adjustment to power costs?

Maintenance mode it is then.

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Nonono, don't forget we also got new sounds for Battle-shout and Routing Cry

LotrO golden age incoming!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Nonono, don't forget we also got new sounds for Battle-shout and Routing Cry

LotrO golden age incoming!

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Lol exactly
[sarcasm]Because the exact tone of "Aaargh!" is what I find disappointing about the class "revamp". [/sarcasm]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

So RockX no longer works for Turbine, no changes to herald in Bullroarer release notes. No addressing other issues with the class except an adjustment to power costs?

Maintenance mode it is then.

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I don't think no changes means maintenance mode (though there is other evidence for that, particularly IMHO lack of much end game). I feel like Capts are in a pretty good place myself, and don't feel like tons of changes are really *needed*... Other classes seem rather worse off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

I don't think no changes means maintenance mode (though there is other evidence for that, particularly IMHO lack of much end game). I feel like Capts are in a pretty good place myself, and don't feel like tons of changes are really *needed*... Other classes seem rather worse off.

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I disagree.

We have a herald that's forced on us with the removal of banners but is still a useless pain in the backside. No sign of the banner / armament merge we were promised in update 13, and they canned the guy who made that promise.

We have 10m and 7m radius buffs when all the new content involves splitting up over wide areas. Design fail there.

We have buffs tied to trait lines so they are basically to cover holes in captain performance rather than actually help our fellowship. That's why as predicted literally months ago I am asked to spend all my time in red line unless there is no real healer or tank, then I am asked to stand in for that role.

The only good thing is we can actually do those roles, though arguably that's because the game is so easy right now...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

So RockX no longer works for Turbine, no changes to herald in Bullroarer release notes. No addressing other issues with the class except an adjustment to power costs?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

No sign of the banner / armament merge we were promised in update 13

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It is very common that some changes would not appear in the patch notes. When one is waiting for a promised change, he/she should check it in game before complaining.

This change is finally made, it is just missing in the notes for some reason. Captain's trainers have a new barter option where you can exchange any existing armaments for a general "Token" which in turn can be exchanged for any skill granting a herald with an outfit of your choice. These skills seem to be similar to what Lore Masters have for a long time - for example, you can have 8 or more different Raven skills and the only difference between those will be their look. Same with heralds now.

I did not spend much time looking at all the options (many pages) as I did not have any armaments with me to try bartering. But the option is there.

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The buffs the Heralds give have also been changed:

Banner of War: +2% Melee, Ranged and Tactical Damage
Banner of Victory: -10% Power Cost
Banner of Honour: +3% Physical Mitigation and Tactical Mitigation

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Dang....I just came back to play my captains after a few months off....and I noticed that the Herald of War no longer gives Might and Agility increases to my Captain :mad: That was (to ME) one of the few reasons to play a Captain instead of Champion or Guardian....it also allowed me to equip gear with slighter lower might/agility stats while increasing will and fate - because I knew my herald would balance me out...Dang Dang Dang again :(

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Originally Posted by HeirOfNumenor

Dang....I just came back to play my captains after a few months off....and I noticed that the Herald of War no longer gives Might and Agility increases to my Captain :mad: That was (to ME) one of the few reasons to play a Captain instead of Champion or Guardian....it also allowed me to equip gear with slighter lower might/agility stats while increasing will and fate - because I knew my herald would balance me out...Dang Dang Dang again :(

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There's no reason to increase Will on your Captain though, and Agility is not important for a Captain. I'd suggest you stack up on Might with some Fate and Vitality as second priority.

With that said, the +2% damage is quite weak at lower levels (where the old might+agi bonus used to be really strong), however, at endgame I prefer the +2% bonus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lunasa

It is very common that some changes would not appear in the patch notes. When one is waiting for a promised change, he/she should check it in game before complaining.

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Sure, great advice, I should totally do that.

Just as soon as you point me at the location for the Bullroarer installer.

It's very common that some people make suggestion that I am sure make complete sense from their point of view. When one is making such statements, maybe he/she should check they are actually possible before hitting "submit".

And while you are dispensing such valuable wisdom, perhaps you could let us know if herald DPS has increased to something worth bothering with, or if it's just how tough they are?

And how much has survivability improved?

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

And while you are dispensing such valuable wisdom, perhaps you could let us know if herald DPS has increased to something worth bothering with, or if it's just how tough they are?

And how much has survivability improved?

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Sorry, but I refuse to answer questions which are asked in such tone.
My post above was made to correct some misinformation which appeared in this thread. I am done here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lunasa

Sorry, but I refuse to answer questions which are asked in such tone.
My post above was made to correct some misinformation which appeared in this thread. I am done here.

---

Well you failed to correct misinformation, because I said (emphasis added):

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

So RockX no longer works for Turbine, no changes to herald in Bullroarer release notes. No addressing other issues with the class except an adjustment to power costs?

Maintenance mode it is then.

---

My statement is 100% factually correct. You even acknowledge it here:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lunasa

It is very common that some changes would not appear in the patch notes. When one is waiting for a promised change, he/she should check it in game before complaining.

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What's entertaining is I used exactly your words in return:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

It's very common that some people make suggestion that I am sure make complete sense from their point of view. When one is making such statements, maybe he/she should check they are actually possible before hitting "submit".

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So if you are upset about my tone, consider how I felt about yours?

I think it is clear your purpose is not to "clear up misinformation" but a bit of passive aggressive trolling, otherwise you would be happy to clear up more "misinformation" in the form of what the actual changes to the herald are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

There's no reason to increase Will on your Captain though, and Agility is not important for a Captain. I'd suggest you stack up on Might with some Fate and Vitality as second priority.

With that said, the +2% damage is quite weak at lower levels (where the old might+agi bonus used to be really strong), however, at endgame I prefer the +2% bonus.

---

Thank you for your advice.... :)

Give red captains 1-1.5 min cd sprint instead of make haste! (give option for it in trait tree!) Solo red cappies like myself will <3 turbine!

Aaaaannd

Surprise surprise, heralds still not fixed. Armament changes didn't make it in I guess.

So heralds are still doing common damage, dying to normal mobs at random and to add to the fun we actually need them more due to mastery and mitigations nerf.

Is there actually a dev looking at captains right now? Lets look at the patch notes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Captain

Grave Wound is now learned at level 30, down from level 42.

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OK. Great. I am sure this helps out new players who had trouble with that because you could get the trait points before you got the skill IIRC.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

All armor sets which reset Oathbreaker's Shame now have a chance to reset Oathbreaker's Shame, with a cooldown built into how often it can occur.

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Itemisation dev did this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

Power costs have been adjusted for the majority of Captain Skills.

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Uh... so we don't suck power in yellow line now? I'll have to test this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

The Minstrel's “Call to Greatness” should properly trigger defeat events and bring up the auto-skill bar.

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Minstrel fix.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

Dwarf Herald attack animation is now in sync with the damage being reported as attacks hit the target.

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Did anyone actually care about that?


Basically none of the major issues addressed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aardnebby

Basically none of the major issues addressed.

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And those are?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

And those are?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aardnebby

Outstanding issues:

Short buff range of auras, EG herald buff, IDOME, Motivation - Suggested solution would be to make this a skill like our tactics (massive 80m range, duration of say 10 seconds) but is re-triggered every 3 seconds without user input.

Poor herald performance (various) - At level cap DPS is still pathetic and the Heightened Allies trait is effectively worthless compared to almost any other trait even at double the cost - no idea what I can suggest here because something tells me even if the herald does 10 times the DPS it does now (400dps instead of 40!) the pathing is not going to improve and we are stuck with the herald whether we want it or not. There are several AoE skills that kill the herald despite us being told most would not affect it. It cannot be summoned on the move (you have to stand still for the induction). It still suffers various "eye" effects. The only contribution to the playability of the captain is when you want x-brother while soloing, wouldn't a stance do just as well (such as Warspeech used to work for minstrels).

X-brother skills - Lack of flexibility - should be made general skills - why are we buffing other peoples tanking ability when we are in tank stance? Likewise heals? I want to shield brother the tank when I am a healer! I want blade brother always available because more dps = faster runs. I want to song brother when I have a captain tanking and he needs more power, or because I have a full team of minstrels and RKs and LMs who want more tactical mastery.

Tactics buff over-rights tactics of other captains in the group (sometimes? For some reason with Focus/Relentless it didnt seem to over-right, but with On Guard/Relentless the most recent one took precedence). Tactics skills should be more controllable OR stack.

Tactics - on guard - still utterly awful. The only person in the group with power problems is the tank traited captain (so power cost is pointless for 5 out of 6), the parry rating and defence % are only useful if you are taking damage. Of no interest to anyone.

Tactics - focus - 2% tactical mitigation? huh? Incoming healing % isn't really a buff, it's the same as increasing all your heals by a few % (less than 5%, because most people who need healing a lot already have incoming heal %, and going from say 130% to 135% is actually an improvement of approx 3.8%). Yes yes it increases self heals, but seriously?

IMHO reduced length of duration on last stand still makes it pointless, putting it into the tank line is counterproductive and the heal is pathetic. Can we do something with this skill to make it something I will use at some point? A bubble for example?



Not captain specific:

Classes split into 3 traitlines, only 2 specs unlocked for VIPs, blatant money grab here. VIPs should get a free 3rd spec for every character. Then make 4th/5th specs available for sale.

Destiny points removed and never replaced despite sapience saying a new system was in the works.

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Apparently the tactics buff not stacking is fixed btw. Lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Apparently the tactics buff not stacking is fixed btw. Lol.

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Eh? That was fixed months ago? :S

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aardnebby

Poor herald performance (various) - At level cap DPS is still pathetic and the Heightened Allies trait is effectively worthless compared to almost any other trait even at double the cost - no idea what I can suggest here because something tells me even if the herald does 10 times the DPS it does now (400dps instead of 40!) the pathing is not going to improve and we are stuck with the herald whether we want it or not. There are several AoE skills that kill the herald despite us being told most would not affect it. It cannot be summoned on the move (you have to stand still for the induction). It still suffers various "eye" effects. The only contribution to the playability of the captain is when you want x-brother while soloing, wouldn't a stance do just as well (such as Warspeech used to work for minstrels).

---

Heralds are indeed dissapointing, at least at lvl 85 and beyond.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aardnebby

Tactics buff over-rights tactics of other captains in the group (sometimes? For some reason with Focus/Relentless it didnt seem to over-right, but with On Guard/Relentless the most recent one took precedence). Tactics skills should be more controllable OR stack.

---

Hmm, that's odd :S It seemed to be fixed long ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Tactics - on guard - still utterly awful. The only person in the group with power problems is the tank traited captain (so power cost is pointless for 5 out of 6), the parry rating and defence % are only useful if you are taking damage. Of no interest to anyone.

---

I agree on the power cost bit, some kind of damage buff would be nice (reflect x damage on hit?). -% incoming damage is only useless because most stuff is so easy to heal anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aardnebby

Tactics - focus - 2% tactical mitigation? huh? Incoming healing % isn't really a buff, it's the same as increasing all your heals by a few % (less than 5%, because most people who need healing a lot already have incoming heal %, and going from say 130% to 135% is actually an improvement of approx 3.8%). Yes yes it increases self heals, but seriously?

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5% extra healing is worse than 5% incoming healing though. Tanks may have 130% or 135% as you say, but a Captain easily has +40-50% outgoing healing (where extra healing would be added)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aardnebby

IMHO reduced length of duration on last stand still makes it pointless, putting it into the tank line is counterproductive and the heal is pathetic. Can we do something with this skill to make it something I will use at some point? A bubble for example?

---

I'd like to see it added to the IHW trait (e.g. make the current rank 3 IHW trait a rank 5, where rank 4 adds LS with 3s and rank 5 adds 4s and heal on it)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Eh? That was fixed months ago? :S
...
Hmm, that's odd :S It seemed to be fixed long ago.

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Yes, the post I was quoting raised these issues in January, so I was making the point that ONE item had been fixed in 3 months and a major update. [EDIT] Actually I had raised some of the points as early as Beta 3, so more than 3+ months.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Heralds are indeed dissapointing, at least at lvl 85 and beyond.

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Agreed. And they always have been, so this is an issue that, though RockX tried, has never actually been successfully addressed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I agree on the power cost bit, some kind of damage buff would be nice (reflect x damage on hit?). -% incoming damage is only useless because most stuff is so easy to heal anyway.

---

I love that idea, a damage reflect is very in keeping with yellow line while still actually being useful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

5% extra healing is worse than 5% incoming healing though. Tanks may have 130% or 135% as you say, but a Captain easily has +40-50% outgoing healing (where extra healing would be added)

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So change the %. Or make the bonus something else. If our healing needs 5% or 10% boost or whatever, dont add it to a group wide buff, give us a trait that does that, or raise the tactical healing on legendary items, or one of a million other things that doesnt involve turning our GROUP BUFFS into a BANDAGE for our own poor class performance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I'd like to see it added to the IHW trait (e.g. make the current rank 3 IHW trait a rank 5, where rank 4 adds LS with 3s and rank 5 adds 4s and heal on it)

---

That would be cool, but they would need to shake loose points else where so each trait line is equal number of points. Call Them Out (bleed damage on our tanking line which only gets 2 single target bleeds anyway?) might be a good place to start.

[Edit]
On reflection I note you do not address all of my points, is this because you have nothing to say or because you disagree and don't want to debate the matter?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Yes, the post I was quoting raised these issues in January, so I was making the point that ONE item had been fixed in 3 months and a major update. [EDIT] Actually I had raised some of the points as early as Beta 3, so more than 3+ months.

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Ah ok.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

So change the %. Or make the bonus something else. If our healing needs 5% or 10% boost or whatever, dont add it to a group wide buff, give us a trait that does that, or raise the tactical healing on legendary items, or one of a million other things that doesnt involve turning our GROUP BUFFS into a BANDAGE for our own poor class performance.

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Well, with extra incoming healing in your fellowship, heals from healers in other fellowship(s) (e.g. 24 man raid in moors or 12 man PvE) will also be improved a bit.
I would also consider it to be a lot more of "getting the buff to buff all three aspects" rather than putting it there because our healing needs those 5% extra.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

[Edit]
On reflection I note you do not address all of my points, is this because you have nothing to say or because you disagree and don't want to debate the matter?

---

Bit of both I guess. I've stated several times in this thread that I don't mind x-brother and tactic being locked to the specialization because the buffs help all three aspects (dps, heal and -inc damage). The few % extra healing, DPS or -inc damage you could get by micromanaging which x-brother you wanted at a given time just isn't something I can be bothered with anymore. But then again, I can barely be bothered to start the game in the first place and with the "no instances in 2014+2015" approach by Rowan, I don't see see myself logging in anytime soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Bit of both I guess. I've stated several times in this thread that I don't mind x-brother and tactic being locked to the specialization because the buffs help all three aspects (dps, heal and -inc damage). The few % extra healing, DPS or -inc damage you could get by micromanaging which x-brother you wanted at a given time just isn't something I can be bothered with anymore. But then again, I can barely be bothered to start the game in the first place and with the "no instances in 2014+2015" approach by Rowan, I don't see see myself logging in anytime soon.

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I feel your pain there!

My biggest facepalm moment of the year to date:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by furtim

Honestly, my primary motivation for applying to the Council in the first place was to participate in the class revamps, and the results remain the thing I'm most proud of. I don't agree with every specific change that was made, and I don't deny that some of the results have been pretty broken (perma-SotD on Captains, anybody?), but at the end of the day Turbine made a huge step in terms of bringing a 7 year-old game in line with modern MMO gameplay. That's a hell of an accomplishment, and I'm proud to have been a part of it.

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I literally could not believe he said this. Pretty much everyone I play with find the way the class revamps were done a negative experience. And captain players got some of the worst of it!

Please note this is not an attack on Furtim, I just feel he is very out of touch with the presiding opinions throughout beta and post release.

For reference:
http://steamcharts.com/app/212500#All

Notice the sharp drop after release of HD, nothing like the slower drop off of with the previous expansion. It is clear that HD did very little to boost long term player interest from this chart. (And yes I am aware that steam players are probably a minority of all LOTRO players, but it is a significant enough sample to be statistically representative).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

I feel your pain there!

My biggest facepalm moment of the year to date:



I literally could not believe he said this. Pretty much everyone I play with find the way the class revamps were done a negative experience. And captain players got some of the worst of it!

Please note this is not an attack on Furtim, I just feel he is very out of touch with the presiding opinions throughout beta and post release.

For reference:
http://steamcharts.com/app/212500#All

Notice the sharp drop after release of HD, nothing like the slower drop off of with the previous expansion. It is clear that HD did very little to boost long term player interest from this chart. (And yes I am aware that steam players are probably a minority of all LOTRO players, but it is a significant enough sample to be statistically representative).

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Well, the revamps are the smallest issues as I see it but issues never the less. The total lack of balancing combined with content that I don't want to play more than once (and barely want to play once...) is what killed the game for me. My understanding from Dev diaries etc was that this revamp would make balancing easier, and since balancing is key for instances and raids, I was optimistic - I didn't mind classes getting a tad simpler if it meant content would be better. Let's just say I'm not really optimistic about this game anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Well, the revamps are the smallest issues as I see it but issues never the less. The total lack of balancing combined with content that I don't want to play more than once (and barely want to play once...) is what killed the game for me. My understanding from Dev diaries etc was that this revamp would make balancing easier, and since balancing is key for instances and raids, I was optimistic - I didn't mind classes getting a tad simpler if it meant content would be better. Let's just say I'm not really optimistic about this game anymore.

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I can't argue with your logic.

If they started producing two raids a year, the class revamp would have been a necessary evil that worked out arguably worth the cost.

I don't dislike the big battles, I do find them somewhat... meh. Like Skirmishes. Not a real raid, but entertaining for a change.

Of course whats truely ridiculous is they hand out secondary vitality like it's going out of fashion, then are shocked that people have such high mitigations! But rather than reduce how much vitality they give out and rebalance the items, instead they nerf what vitality does, throwing tactical mitigation out of whack...

At the moment the issue I have with balance is that landscape mobs are still too easy, but if I try and tank a real raid it becomes a matter of luck, since two dev crits and it doesnt matter how ridiculous the minstrels healing rate is if two hits in less time than the induction of a bolster kills you.

It's amateur hour for balance despite the high praise that the class revamp was going to fix all the bad old issues!

The revamp is the heart of the issues with content other than big battles and it FIXES NOTHING since we still dont get any new raids. And it is still half finished 5 months after release of HD.

Until you have done development work at a professional level, you're not going to understand that 3 months to fix something is actually average, and sometimes it takes longer. The big killer here isn't fixing the code (that's the easy part), it's the regression testing to make sure that your fix didn't screw something else up, and resolving issues as they appear during the fixing process. I mean, if you want them to fix it ASAP, Turbine could prolly do that, but then you'd be complaining about the bugs that'd appear from there.

Really though, it's just patience and persistence - which is why it's crucial to learn how to rehash issues but with a different take on it so you can keep your idea on page one or page two, and also how to post stuff so you can get others to comment on the issue. The more unique posters that view something, and the more that can agree with you, will help give Turbine the direction they need. Another part of that is learning how to keep issues current but still play completely within the CoC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Until you have done development work at a professional level, you're not going to understand that 3 months to fix something is actually average, and sometimes it takes longer. The big killer here isn't fixing the code (that's the easy part), it's the regression testing to make sure that your fix didn't screw something else up, and resolving issues as they appear during the fixing process. I mean, if you want them to fix it ASAP, Turbine could prolly do that, but then you'd be complaining about the bugs that'd appear from there.

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You know, I do actually understand how professional project management works. Usually professionals try to look at the implications before they write a single line of code or make a start on whatever the project is. EG, lets say I give everyone 3000-4000 extra fate. Well, what does fate contribute? Crit rating, regens and now tactical mitigation. Hmm... maybe 3000-4000 is rather a lot, perhaps if all we actually want to do is increase regen we should just do that, since increasing Fate will do other stuff too!

Why give everyone 3000 free vitality on gear, then complain about mitigations being too high? If they wanted to increase average Max Morale then just increasing that stat from items is what they should have done. A fundamental rule for dealing with complex systems is that when you wish to make a change, keep it simple! The less you change, the less unexpected consequences you will get!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Really though, it's just patience and persistence - which is why it's crucial to learn how to rehash issues but with a different take on it so you can keep your idea on page one or page two, and also how to post stuff so you can get others to comment on the issue. The more unique posters that view something, and the more that can agree with you, will help give Turbine the direction they need. Another part of that is learning how to keep issues current but still play completely within the CoC.

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The issue is that the plans are made before most players ever even get to make an objection or agreement. Trait trees were basically set in stone (eg double cost for out of line costs etc) before any players got a say except perhaps the players council. And furtim seems to feel that it's The Best Thing Ever, but many players disagree. Further, Turbine seems to be unable to admit it has ever made a mistake, (since this is admitting they wasted staff time/money) and so refuse to reverse course on anything once it has started no matter how unpopular it proves.

And so we have massive increases of vitality, but when this proves a problem, instead of swapping say 50% of the vitality on every item for an equal share of +max morale, they nerf what vitality does. This messes up the tactical mitigation for most classes so they add tactical mit to Fate and increase the Will contribution. This doesn't really fix the problem, as now vitality is actually less useful than +max morale since you get more max morale for the same itemlevel and vitality only otherwise contributes to OOC morale regen and resistance, but OOC morale regen is basically worthless and resistance is gained at such a low rate it is not worth the cost of stacking vitality, so no one wears primary vit gear anymore unless it is for other reasons (EG set bonuses on BB jewelry). Which means that about 40% of the gear that the item dev spent months creating is now worthless to the majority of players who know what they are doing...

I am 100% serious when I say I honestly believe that gameplay wise every major change to characters since day 1 of helms deep has been more mistake than improvement.


And further Almagnus, you asked me firstly what issues I was talking about, then when I mentioned them, you changed the subject to project management (well, you called it development work, but IMHO the principles apply to ANY project management). So, do you have any on topic comments about the issues with the captain class and or stats in general?

The other thing you need remind of:

Turbine owes us nothing.

LotRO is Turbine's game, and they will do with LotRO exactly as they see fit, regardless of the approval of the player base.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

The other thing you need remind of:

Turbine owes us nothing.

LotRO is Turbine's game, and they will do with LotRO exactly as they see fit, regardless of the approval of the player base.

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Actually that's not true.

Under various consumer protection laws the merchant has a variety of obligations to the customer. The exact details depend on your country, the product, how you paid for it (different laws for credit vs debit card etc). But those are more financial and legal rather than game related.

More importantly however, Turbine is obligated to get the best return on investment for its investors (IE the shareholders of WB). This usually means by running a successful business etc. A successful MMO business usually means a game that is as popular as possible while monetizing that enjoyment.

See where I am going with this? Don't make declarative statements without evidence to back them up or at least thinking them through, the above should have been obvious.

Also, it's less than 3 months since Turbine was given a grave warning about just how little power they have when it comes to "their game".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Also, it's less than 3 months since Turbine was given a grave warning about just how little power they have when it comes to "their game".

---

Well, at least I can say I have tried to point out the issues, and on numerous occasions made recommendations as to solutions. If the game sinks then it sinks, but I did my best.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Well, at least I can say I have tried to point out the issues, and on numerous occasions made recommendations as to solutions. If the game sinks then it sinks, but I did my best.

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Indeed. My point is rather that they can only "do what they want with their game" to some extent. The part of the playerbase that don't approve of those decisions (or at least some of them) will stop supplying the money that keeps WB happy, and WB has the power here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Indeed. My point is rather that they can only "do what they want with their game" to some extent. The part of the playerbase that don't approve of those decisions (or at least some of them) will stop supplying the money that keeps WB happy, and WB has the power here.

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And if WB says "though shalt have trees", guess what....

On the plus side, at least now we're more likely to actually see Hobbit content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

And if WB says "though shalt have trees", guess what....

On the plus side, at least now we're more likely to actually see Hobbit content.

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Of what Turbine has said of WB's involvement in the actual development (or rather, the lack of), I don't see that happening.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Also, it's less than 3 months since Turbine was given a grave warning about just how little power they have when it comes to "their game".

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Food for thought:

Bioshock Infinite was the most successful game of 2013. It was a critical darling that topped most of the major Game of the Year Lists. It also took in an awful lot of money. Even though it must have cost a huge amount of money to make and market, I'm sure it was profitable.

Irrational Games shut down operations and laid off all but a dozen or so of its several hundred employees.

Which is merely to point out that business decisions involving layoffs and restructuring frequently have very little to do with the quality of the product that's being put out by a given studio.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by furtim

Food for thought:

Bioshock Infinite was the most successful game of 2013. It was a critical darling that topped most of the major Game of the Year Lists. It also took in an awful lot of money. Even though it must have cost a huge amount of money to make and market, I'm sure it was profitable.

Irrational Games shut down operations and laid off all but a dozen or so of its several hundred employees.

Which is merely to point out that business decisions involving layoffs and restructuring frequently have very little to do with the quality of the product that's being put out by a given studio.

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Your point being what? It's still surely WB who has the power to shut down LotrO (or Turbine altogether) or put LotrO into maintenance mode for whatever reason - and considering it's WB, profit surely has a huge influence on such decisions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by furtim

Food for thought:

Bioshock Infinite was the most successful game of 2013. It was a critical darling that topped most of the major Game of the Year Lists. It also took in an awful lot of money. Even though it must have cost a huge amount of money to make and market, I'm sure it was profitable.

Irrational Games shut down operations and laid off all but a dozen or so of its several hundred employees.

Which is merely to point out that business decisions involving layoffs and restructuring frequently have very little to do with the quality of the product that's being put out by a given studio.

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Not to mention, that Blizzard had serious layoffs a couple of years ago, Sony Online Entertainment also recently, as well as Disney and a few other gaming companies...

The problem is NOT the product (for the most part) - it's the world-wide shakiness of the global economy and financial structures, with some countries dancing along the precipice more often than others...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HeirOfNumenor

Not to mention, that Blizzard had serious layoffs a couple of years ago, Sony Online Entertainment also recently, as well as Disney and a few other gaming companies...

The problem is NOT the product (for the most part) - it's the world-wide shakiness of the global economy and financial structures, with some countries dancing along the precipice more often than others...

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WoW started their massive loss of subs like 3 years ago, so a skeptic could easily draw a line of consequence there.
SoE have had several projects failing/dying on them? http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/01/...down-four-mmos

Something else to keep in mind, often layoffs happen almost immediately after a product is canned internally, but when that information becomes available to the public can lag behind, sometimes by months, so what we're seeing as the gaming populace may be months delayed from what's actually happening. Then there's other things like headcount swell to get a project out the door and other fun things.

So going by what's going on with the hiring laying off isn't as accurate as many would think it would be.

Trait tree/skill stats:

Hands of Healing:

-Cry of Vengeance
Main stats bonus = 1.6 * lvl ?
-25% Attack Duration
Armour value bonus = 39.39 * lvl ?

-Brother skill: Song-brother
number of slices of current player level:
Critical Defence bonus: 0.6
Physical Mastery bonus: 0.6
Tactical Mastery bonus: 1.0

-Tactic:Focus
-5% Attack Duration
5% Incoming healing
2% Tactical Mitigation

Lead the Charge:

-Brother skill: Blade-brother
number of slices of current player level:
Critical Defence bonus: 0.6
Physical Mastery bonus: 1.0
Tactical Mastery bonus: 0.6

-Tactic:Relentless Attack
Critical Hit bonus = 24.24 * lvl ?
Physical|Tactical Mastery bonus = 40.4 * lvl ?
5% Outgoing Healing

Leader of Men:

-Brother skill: Shield-brother
number of slices of current player level:
Critical Defence bonus: 1.0
Physical Mastery bonus: 0.6
Tactical Mastery bonus: 0.6

-Tactic:On Guard
Parry bonus = 14.274 * lvl ?
5% Defence (-5% Incoming Damage)
-10% Power Costs

-Defensive Strike
Armour Value bonus = 12.12 * lvl ?

Notes:
1) ? = not yet verified for all levels
2) about slices see: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...he-stat-system

Thanks Giseldah, for info and getting us back to Thread: Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Captain

Are there any plans to scale herald damage? It doesn't feel like it has scaled since 85 (lvl cap).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lightknight33

Are there any plans to scale herald damage? It doesn't feel like it has scaled since 85 (lvl cap).

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Good luck with that, herald damage has been irrelevant since... well... always. Maybe they can just delete it and give us a buff banner instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dietlbomb

Indeed the lack of challenge is a serious problem, but I predict that if the game's content were to become more challenging, the problems with the trait system will become more obvious. Before the trait trees, it was relatively simple to swap a couple traits in a given build. With 65 points to spend each time a tree needs to be tweaked, however, this exercise is much more tedious. Having 2 free saved specs is small compensation for this, in my opinion. And if the developers introduce content challenging enough to require careful traiting, the price of the 3rd saved spec will provoke much wailing* in these forums.

One solution to this would be to allow players to subtract spent trait points without resetting the entire setup, but the developers seem to be opposed to this (at least that's the gist I gleaned from beta). I don't know whether the motivation is the difficulty of producing this feature, or whether it is to encourage players to spend more turbine points on saved specs.



*I also predict that making the content more challenging will cause other flaws in the trait trees to become more obvious, such as the crude over-specialization of certain classes' roles (e.g. champions' ST vs. AoE trees and inability of captains and champions to off-tank while not specced for tanking), and the extreme constraints in the trees' topology. I'm all for challenging gameplay, but if the challenge includes careful optimization of the trait budget, I might find something more fun to do with my spare time.

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the captain class wasn't a disaster at all mate, it was the most heavy class of all. In that time, a dmg cpt could get capped mits at 85. It's self heals in combination with some descent dps was great, it was hard to kill on in etten. I've played w/ a fully capped mit build in the times of 85, if I did put out the muster courage self heal w/ valiant strike, you needed 3 good wargs to bring that down.( even more deadly with the war-cry buff) Watch down w/ armour stats.

It was able to withstand a lot of dps and it still does today in red, but you should know the old class for such stuff. Not knowing the class in old days, means that it's gonna be hard finding builds who did feel like old cpt. I myself run in etten a dps build with 23k morale, at lv 100 /U17 ya needed around 4 wargs to bring that down, guess what? It were its selfheals, cpt is still able to generate self heals. Not just by focusing heavily on its dps for puttin out more dpsheal, but also going into blue taking muster courage self heal with you. It's heals are fine, heals for me mostly around 1,4/2,2k. (This was while being red)

Another build for example is going main blue, but mixed with some red. Take away morale essences or jewells and put in might (morale should be around 16-18k), bring up crit w/ both crit boosts (blue and red) and make a dps weapon, fitted with all battle state legacies and healing-area affect for rallying cry. Output to heal will be around 15/16k on rallying cry for example. Why going that low in morale? Well, with the state legacies you know a captain has less inc dmg and more healoutput on holding hardened state open. This means a captain ALREADY has enough survive ability from its own skills, fitting a red or blue cpt with morale is BAD. Unless you don't want to make damage in blue, wouldn't recommend it though. This because a blue cpt heals through hittin enemy, so why not making dmg at the same time? I hit 10k in blue on T2 featured instances, remember that when they showed us the class changes, they said that blue should be able to do some respectable dmg aswell. So, I recommend going with low morale, tank should be able to hold aggro on instances. If he doesn't hold aggro, don't let him blame you for having low morale, but blame him for failing to hold aggro. Tanks are supposed to protect the group, unless you're a hybrid tank, which means you tank through a line that doesn't focus on aggro (blue cpt for example).

- Alltair

A very low Demonstration/Gude of the Captain class. The potency level is very high in particular against foes which are 5-6 levels above the player. Vanyalanthriel vs Red Mobs {Enemy difficulty} A Captain is a immensely powerful due to self heals ,defence , damage and pet, buffs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfF8WHIaveU&t=1s

Vanya Sulie!

i still very much dislike the concept of 'blocking' with a two handed weapon. For one it makes little sense, as it should be a parry. Second, it kills half the consideration of going for a shield.

For yellow line, i would propose to include heavy shields, in addition to two-handed blocking, making both pathways worth considering.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hfe

i still very much dislike the concept of 'blocking' with a two handed weapon. For one it makes little sense, as it should be a parry. Second, it kills half the consideration of going for a shield.

For yellow line, i would propose to include heavy shields, in addition to two-handed blocking, making both pathways worth considering.

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IMO It depends on how you define blocking and parrying.

As I understand them, parrying is mainly when you redirect/deflect an attack rather than fully stopping it. Blocking on the other hand is when you stop an attack completely.