15.2 Player music

Basic law of bug hunting. Bring lots of perspiration and patience. Verify, verify, verify.

Reset audio to default. Turn off all audio volume except master and player music.

Play in window mode.

Play a solo piece of .abc.

Start turning on each setting one uses for playback.

Fratonia is right. Something going on with the persistent feature. Changing settings generates the familiar snaps, and even going off/on focus for window mode generates the snaps.

Set up three windows. three accounts. Set all three focus settings to mute. As I'm typing this I on forums I can hear the occasional note coming thru. Also during transitions between windows, there's the familair snap-pop.

Sound playback, chage a setting.

Focus Loss Behavior to mute

Quantize Player Music on

Low Latency mode on/off. toggle this.

Voice enabled off

The 4 sliders for Voice; Voice Volume, Microphone Gain, Capture Threshold, Playback Latency. Zero them out.

Voice Playback device. Change a setting.

Voice Capture Device. Change a setting.

From default, Solo play was generating snap-pop on a heavy song. Resetting to default and messing with those toggle/slider setting resulted in a reduction in snap-pop.
Group play was unaffected. Severe snap-pop was still detected.

Which begs the question. Is this a case where another dept other than audio touched U15.3's playback behavior, notably how the Voice playback segment of audio control can be responsible in generating the snap-pop drop-out bug? Also. Why am I hearing snaps of the song playing on three muted focus account windows while my window focus is on forums?



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God, I can be wordy. Try this.

Launch LotRO. Set graphics to window mode instead of full screen. Play a song with lots of notes/chords. In your game options for audio, set Focus Loss Behavior to MUTE instead of the default persistent.. Click off the window to desktop. Listen. You will hear your song in the form of snippets of notes or noise coming thru intermittently.

Do I need to submit this as a bug Fratonia, or did you submit this already?



http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg

I love the in-tune instruments! :)

Clarinet will be easier for me to use now! Quite lovely sound. And the Horn is great! :)

And thanks a million for making my favourite instrument, the Pibgorn, better! It wasn't nice to have all those broken notes before, so it's a lot better now! And it's not too loud no matter what the Pib-haters say :p ;)


Seems to be some problems to iron out still but hopefully that will happen soon :) Thank you, music team, for continuing to work on the Music System!



About the weird sounds people are having:

Is there someone who can record the snap-crackle sound? I don't know what to listen for in game.


(This is going to be long because it's hard to explain things in a brief way when I don't have full control of the language I have to use. Sorry!)

I used to have weird sounds long ago when I multi-boxed to play music, at least when playing wind instruments. I had always set the other clients to Mute on focus loss but after an update long long ago that weird sound (like some of the notes would push through extremely loudly randomly. More and more often, the more clients I had) appeared.
Anyway, later I found that setting all clients to Disable instead of Mute worked. There would still be a few short loud BEEPS here and there, but a lot less than earlier.

That sound problem changed recently to this: Before this update I used to have a weird sound problem when playing wind instruments while having Chrome open with hundreds of tabs. If I closed it down the weird loud note sounds would disappear.

Now after the update the BEEPing sounds when playing wind instruments with Chrome web-browser open seems to be gone, but instead I have a new sound problem. When playing stringed instruments, even solo, I'll hear a loud static sound, like if someone is hiding behind my speakers, randomly wiggling the cord where it connects to the speaker. The more clients I have open, the more often the sound appears. I had all other clients set to Disable on focus loss.
Have not been able to try with Google Chrome closed or with a restarted computer as of yet. I have some work I must finish before I can shut things off, so it might take a few days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey

Do I need to submit this as a bug Fratonia, or did you submit this already?

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I /bugged it already. You could do the same so the QA team sees that it's not just me who is having this issue. You could refer to Bug ID #24027-91205 if you want. That's the ID of my report.

After some hours of testing band play and solo play with the new music system, here are my thoughts about it:

This new try was a better one than the last disaster. But it ruined a lot of fine tunes and sounds. A lot of problems are already described here, but I have to say that I don't find this system so much better then the old one.

1. the new lute is a mandolin with an odd B-note from another instrument entirely. A lot of tunes are sounding broken because of it and solo - playing .... *shudders*
2. so, please get the old lute back and make this one a new instrument
3. the flute has lost its brightness.... it sounds flat and has again this very loud breathiness like in this first bad try. Also again a notch too quiet
4. the clarinet is better but also has a bad note as already described
5. the harp is unchanged ... all blessing to the Valar
6. the theorbo is fine now in higher notes but down deep it "plunks" loudly away and you won't need a drum
7. yes, the drums do have some more "rattles" than before.... This new "rattling along" did also impair some fine songs
8. the bagpipes also need a notch more power and they have lost notes.... the deeper ones are cut off and also as described other ones
9. the pibgorn has gotten better and more playable
10. the horn.... some people do like it now for their tunes, but if you used it for a deep grumbling note in your songs you're out of luck. There it sounds awful and synthetic
to use it now, some tunes have to transcribed from scratch anew or be lost forever

My band, the Mondbarden of Belegaer have lost with this system their original sounding..... and a lot of tunes that are now not worthy to perform anymore. So we will only perform
the sad rest that sound passable and will abstain otherwise from playing music or doing any concerts. Good luck to other bands but our music style is gone for now.

Kirgoin Steelhammer
MONDBARDEN of Belegaer

*turns off LoTRO Music System*

Cya when you fix what you broke while trying to change what didn't need changing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirgoin

1. the new lute is a mandolin with an odd B-note from another instrument entirely. A lot of tunes are sounding broken because of it and solo - playing .... *shudders*
2. so, please get the old lute back and make this one a new instrument

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i love the new lute on 1 song i tred hope they don't get the old lute back, tho new lute does need some fixing/adjustments as do other instruments

Quote:

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Originally Posted by friendsofthetooks

i love the new lute on 1 song i tred hope they don't get the old lute back, tho new lute does need some fixing/adjustments as do other instruments

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Repeatedly press 7.

I rest my case.

I'm pretty sure(As Bruzo and I tested earlier) that the lute's B tone is just a toned down, twanged up version of the harp's B tone.

Yeah!

10. the horn.... some people do like it now for their tunes, but if you used it for a deep grumbling note in your songs you're out of luck. There it sounds awful and synthetic to use it now, some tunes have to transcribed from scratch anew or be lost forever

I agree. I know many people who will be happy with the new horn/saxo now. Just, my band, Bara Bahau, have lost its original bad primal sounding... we're not a Jazz Band :p

Where's our so deep horn ?

Bara Style will survive by choice of tunes but i'm crying for my deep noisy old horn. R.I.P.

OK, for me, theorbo is now at a better good volume balance!

For other instruments, everything has been said or almost...

No false notes on my Bang Bell!

Anyway, thx for the work! I hope Music System still on progress!

Zed'Roaring'Rock

Wouldn't it be great to keep the new lovely horn, but also get the old horn sound back later, as a new horn with a different name like maybe... Dwarven Horn, Horn of Erebor, Silvertine Horn, Durin's Horn, or somesuch? :)
If it is deeper and more "bad primal" (Yay, Zed!) it would fit well with a Dwarf inspired name, right? :D Just like the new harp sounds that is being held back to maybe appear as a new harp later would fit nicely with a harp with an elvish inspired name =)


I can't help but think that it shouldn't have to be impossible to both have the cake and eating it, you know? :) If some of us love the wonderful new horn while others really need the deep old horn for their heavy music... Well, what can be better than having both? :o


Greedy? Me? Well at least I'm admitting it! :o



PS: Pet bunnies for Fincin, and cosmetic pet elves for me (Elf Captain class) please! <3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silmelin

Wouldn't it be great to keep the new lovely horn, but also get the old horn sound back later, as a new horn with a different name like maybe... Dwarven Horn, Horn of Erebor, Silvertine Horn, Durin's Horn, or somesuch? :)
If it is deeper and more "bad primal" (Yay, Zed!) it would fit well with a Dwarf inspired name, right? :D Just like the new harp sounds that is being held back to maybe appear as a new harp later would fit nicely with a harp with an elvish inspired name =)


I can't help but think that it shouldn't have to be impossible to both have the cake and eating it, you know? :) If some of us love the wonderful new horn while others really need the deep old horn for their heavy music... Well, what can be better than having both? :o


Greedy? Me? Well at least I'm admitting it! :o



PS: Pet bunnies for Fincin, and cosmetic pet elves for me (Elf Captain class) please! <3

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Yes to bunny pets!
It has been suggested we get both old an new across the board, I honestly do not think that such a bad idea at this moment in time.
I have seen three bands already say they are done and many others say they will try to continue but won't be able to play half of what they have.
I suspect a few more will quit before this is all over with.
I personally do not wish to continue but have chosen to stick it out a while longer for the sake of Bright Star's and Les Beaux Chapeaux's members..my friends.

In 2009 Tiri created a soundcheck.abc (download) file for testing the full range of an instrument to evaluate the intonation, attack, and decay of each note by putting them through their paces in different note lengths and frequency of notes. It takes it from a breve (2 4/4 measures) down to sixteenth notes (at 120 bpm), both with and without rests between the notes. Each test run takes approx. 15 minutes.

I used this file to listen to the bagpipe and lute.

Bagpipe generally behaved well, except a few that were cut off (soft noises/hisses or barely audible notes) when played during the rapid-fire 16th notes. I did not take precise notes on this test, my estimate is close to 50% of the notes did not handle the short duration notes in rapid-fire very well.

The main thing I noted is that most of the notes had a small "click" noise at the end of the decay, which when played rapidly became like a crackle sound.

For lute I took notes on each note. When I say "ok" I mean there were no distortions, warbles (or pitch bends), buzzes, short decay (less than 1/4 note length), harmonic tones, or noises:

C, - ok
^C, - ok
D, - ok
^D, - pitch warble
E, - ok
F, - sounds like a "dead string" (guitarists will understand) and has a noise at the end of decay which created a clicking sound when played through the rapid-fire 16th notes
^F, - ok
G, - ok
^G, - ok
A, - slight buzz
^A, - ok
B, - high harmonic
C - ok
^C - "dead string" and short decay
D - ok
^D - ok
E - short decay and slight buzz
F - short decay
^F - short decay and slight buzz
G - ok
^G - ok
A - short decay and slight buzz
^A - ok
B - longer decay than most and very "banjo-like"
c - longer decay
^c - longer decay
d - longer decay
^d - ok
e - ok
f - slight buzz
^f - slight buzz
g - ok
^g - ok
a - ok
^a - ok
b - slight pitch bend
c' - very "banjo-like"

I am going to have to do a 180 here. I was willing to overlook one or two bad notes if it meant a richer music experience. However, after our Bright Star concert last night, I must say that Turbine needs to once again roll back the music system to the old way. My complaint is not so much from the tone of the instruments but problems with how they act in the player itself. Last night, most of the songs were a disconcerted mess with timing problems between instruments. I, like most other transcribers, use ABC Player to judge whether or not a song is ready before playing in the game. It is not perfect but most times it is good enough. We then move on to testing and then the final performance. The songs I played last night did not sound like the songs I heard in ABC Player or the songs I heard while testing. For instance, the instruments seemed to "stumble" right at the beginning of the song and they didn't get much better later on.

Sometimes when there is a lot of people in the audience or if the song is a little "busy" we would get some timing stumbles due to lag but last night, neither the audience was very large and the songs were not very intensive and it was much worse last night.

This is not me "looking for perfection". This is me expecting a better experience from a update and last night was not a good experience. And I am not the only one who noticed this. Several members of the audience did as well.

Turbine, your hearts were in the right place but it is clear that you do not have the resources to carry this out like it should. Please just abandon it and bring us back the old system. It may have been imperfect but it was better then this latest fix.

If you do want to pursue this path, I suggest that you have a professional musician to help you out and to not just let your programmers take care of it. Programmers are good at programming, but they are not necessarily good at music.

And I need to add this: You have lost three bands over this so far and the way things are going, Bright Star might be a fourth. We will trudge on for awhile in hope that things get better soon but if we don't see any action soon, I might have no choice but to disband the band until further notice.

There's more going on than the broken "mute" on the Focus Loss Behaviour.

If you want a repeatable example of the snap pops. launch two accounts. set for window mode. All volume off except master and player music on both.

Focus Loss Behaviour on disable on both. Not mute.

What you would expect is as you click on each account window for the focus, is a shift in audio stereo position. yes?
What you get is an earful of snap-pop. The effect is exaggerated with more account windows opened.
Now go ahead. set Focus Loss Behaviour to persistent on all account windows. More snap-pop? Depending on the song (more faster notes the better), it can turn into a laggy cacophony of crackle from all the snap-pops.

Now do this. ~ or mid stop your ensemble song for all toons. There is a lag in when the song ends for each toon. and there is an apparent cache of a half of bar of song that plays on the last toon you ~, or stop mid song. More clues on this snap-pop issue.

As I reported earlier, I was hearing snaps of single notes even when window focus was on this forum instead of a game window. Unfortunately I could not come up with a repeatable set of instructions.

You know the graphical flying musical notes as a toon is playing notes on a song? I noticed that it did not keep up with the window focus, keeping graphical focus on a non-focus'd window. What I mean is that the window that has focus, a non-focus account window is still drawing flying notes at the fastest rate, where as the window that has focus is drawing the flying musical notes as if it did not have window focus (less frame rate). Another clue?

Sorry Fratonia. I was trying to come up with a repeatable set of instructions for snap-pop, and came up with all this mess of anomolies.

I hoipe Q&A reads this.

More clues.




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Like Orladan, I am undergoing a 180 degree about turn. I have been fairly quiet on the subject trusting to the devs to get there in the end but after extensive testing this week it is apparent that this is not going to work. Certain things I expected and was prepared to adjust to but, as Orladan says, there is a timing problem affecting some of my songs that is irrepairable.

To be honest, all I really wanted was an improvement to the music system not a replacement. My wish list was an in tune clarinet and a couple of new instruments. We seem to have gone a long way from that.

It would be a very hard bullet to bite to roll back again but I'm hoping Turbine will be brave about this. Clearly, this whole thing was more difficult than anyone thought and they have made a valiant effort but maybe it's time to focus on enhancements that may be easier to implement.

My wish list remains the same - retain the old system but, if possible, with the new clarinet. Add the sustained note bass talked about before and a sustained note string instrument based on the Viol/Violin.

If you can't, or won't, roll back then there is a great deal of work to be done as already outlined by many. At least give us back the old lute immediately as that will go a long way to easing things.

Right now, at least one third of my Songbook is unplayable. All the rest will need reworking. And I'm tired of it all and have no intention of doing it more than once.

No matter what, please don't give us the old clarinet ( it was too out of tune, and I'm not talented enough to work around a big problem like that so I could hardly use it at all in my ABC's).
And please don't give back the old Pibgorn with all it's broken notes!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keli

I have been fairly quiet on the subject trusting to the devs to get there in the end but after extensive testing this week it is apparent that this is not going to work.

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I have been quiet too, but not out of trust. My experience in LOTRO (and MMOs in general) have taught me that things tend to go "wrong" more often than they go right. That's not necessarily a criticism--just an observation on the complexity of working with MMOs. But it's a dangerous characteristic, when working with something as beloved as LOTRO's music system.

I'm just exhausted by the whole music-update-thing and want the waters to settle in a fashion that leaves as few people unhappy as possible.

Some people have suggested rolling back the music changes and--if changes are eventually made--it is in the form of one or two new instruments introduced with the new sounds. These new instruments can co-exist alongside the original instruments so that music folks can use or ignore them as desired. I personally think this would be the best option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silmelin

No matter what, please don't give us the old clarinet ( it was too out of tune, and I'm not talented enough to work around a big problem like that so I could hardly use it at all in my ABC's).
And please don't give back the old Pibgorn with all it's broken notes!

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Oh all right, I admit I forgot the pibby.

I have to agree with the tuning of the clarinet. It really did need it.
My wish list all along was not for a new system that was richer sounding. It was to have some tuning done, replacing the missing notes from the clarinet and horn that had what I call the cough and fart sounds, and then add some new instruments.
The other thing I asked for in the past I will state again....Give us another octave or two to work with! Those little things right there would have done more for us than a revamp of the entire system. Having to step all over some songs have kept me from ever being able to transcribe them into game since three octaves are just not enough for many songs. You can move notes into range but it destroys many songs if you do so. If they ever do give us more octaves, for Eru's sake, be sure to add octave downward on the flute and bagpipe as they are already much to high pitched compared to the rest of the instruments!

I do thank you all for the hard work you have put into this. However, we did test and we told you this was not ready to go live and quite honestly, I am a hobbit, so I don't mind saying We told you so! I actually like saying it, it makes me feel taller!
Oh yeah...last but not least...Bunnys!

As a musician and songwriter, this whole thread is a hot mess. I disagree with the volume adjustments completely. I have been with LOTRO since Beta, and I've never had a problem with the volume levels of the instruments.

So far I've been part of one test and 1 concert. all i can say is what a mess. The new lute is awful. It's banjo like notes have ruined a great many songs. It's way to loud as well. Please consider calling it a mandolin and give us back the old Lute asap.
The flute has a bad breathy sound and needs more volume
The theo to me is way to loud on the low end. it thumps so bad it makes my speakers buzz.
bagpipes seem a hair to low in volume
standing behind the band so you dont get dropped notes...
clarinet, horns, cowbell seemed fine to me.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Orlor
Maybe it's time to throw in the towel on this. roll it back and leave it alone.
I appreciate all the hard work you guys did on this.. but the results are not looking good here. this should have stayed in beta.

After hearing the songs last night at the Bright Star concert even one of my songs was played prior to the concert it was depressing. I wasn't sitting too close but I could hear the notes being missed along with the lute being well frankly it's screwed up. I didn't do testing on the test server because from my past experience usually feedback is rarely listened to and case in point is the roll out of yet again a half baked music system rather than just wait to put it out. I fail to understand what the rush is to put out this music system was. It's barely usable as it is now. I'm with the others in saying roll it back until you get the lute fixed and correct the missing note problem as well as increasing the volume on the flute. You can barely hear the damn thing.

I'm not reworking my songs until we have the improvements that actually work. I'm not going to sit there and repeatedly rework songs every update because there is a no listening to those who gave feedback on this system. Really what is the issue with listening to a majority of your testers say it wasn't ready? Same #### different day. This is why I've spent no money on the game and have little faith in anything said by devs in Turbine. You say one thing then do it half way then put it out. Sounds like a play pulled right out of EA's handbook.

Just undo what was done and seriously either wait until the new program is ready or just ditch the effort and fill in the gaps using new instruments. Oh and the poses we have can be used for other instruments so saying we need new poses as an excuse is not acceptable. :P

I wish Turbine would explain their reasoning for doing a complete overhaul rather than just fixing the main problems reported by users and adding a couple of new instruments.

Hotfix Apr. 2 did not address any of the snap-pop issues. Sorry fellas. Guess we have to keep waiting.



http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thurallor

I wish Turbine would explain their reasoning for doing a complete overhaul rather than just fixing the main problems reported by users and adding a couple of new instruments.

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Didn't some hobbit once say...The road to Mordor is paved with good intentions? Er sumthin like that? :P

If you plan to keep on playing concerts, it's recommended you keep under the 5K file size per 60 seconds per part of song length as a rough measure to mitigate the snap-pop issue.

3K / 60s / part is failry safe. It only mitigates, but does not eliminate the snap-pop/note drop-out issue. So if you have a three minute song that has 5 parts, 45K or less for the multi-part .abc file should be safe to play. That's of course if you don't mind the new volumes and instrument sounds. It's a rough estimate on note density within the song length.

Harlequins only has about 110 songs that fit that rough estimate, tested a few and only a min of snap-pop and drop outs are heard. We have about 350 total not counting songs in development. This is not to say the problem has gone away, but much more prevalent in multi-box accounts where the unknown bleed thru of the focus loss filter is cascading thru each account window. Which is backed up by some unknown graphica focus and buffer issues in the music system when playing a song with lots of parts and lot of fast notes, like the drum saltshaker or 1/32nd note Lute solo.

Welcome to 11.2, where the string instruments went entirely silent? Or the infamous U15? Who said they've never had a problem with the music system since Beta? Short memories?




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After some days spending time with the new music system here are my two cents.

To start with, I was quite disappointed to see the new lute make it live in the state it is currently in!

I have posted in this thread earlier asking to have the old lute available along side the new one, as I feel that would give people the choice to decide for themselves which one they like best!

Personally I still much prefer the old lute sound, though I have started to think the new lute would be a nice addition to the instruments, if only those odd notes would be fixed!


Still I think there are many positive things about the new music system, and I would hate to see those disappear without giving them some time to be tweaked and improved upon!

The development team stated they are open to change things further, and I feel they should be given that chance!


This week I have played some tunes with three of the bands I take part in on Laurelin.

Also I have visited a wonderful full length "Dark Side of the Moon" concert by the Maidens of Vanimor, and spend some time at the Bird and Baby Inn weekly gathering listening to many tunes!

Overall I heard various results with different songs, most of those were probably not rebalanced for the new system!

Still many sounded very nice (not taking into account the new lute's odd notes)!


As for the new instruments here are my personal thoughts / impressions:

Lute: Both the old and the new one should be playable! The new lute is a bit too loud right now and should be toned down slightly, and more importantly the odd notes should be fixed!

Harp: Sounds good as is, even with the funny odd high note! I still would like to see an improved version of the new harp in the future as a second harp!

Theorbo: Sounds good, but I'm still divided about this one! Too thumpy on the low notes for my liking! You can leave the drums at home as someone remarked here! The volume is a bit loud but good as is!

Flute: The new flute sounds very nice, but is too soft right now! It sounded better with the volume it had on Bullroarer! Perhaps the louder volume made the breathy sounds less noticable and made it sound livelier?

Clarinet: I love the new clarinet! Good volume too!

Horn: To each his taste, but I like the new horn! Good volume here as well!

Drums: Nice and good volume! Possibly make the rattles a bit less loud, but that was the same for the old drums.

Bagpipe: It has a nice sound and volume. (I do wonder if the cutoff it has now on the short notes are a result of the fix to the missing notes?)

Pibgorn: Could actually be useful now! *grins*

Cowbells: What's not to like!


While listening to music this week I did not notice any of the snap / pop issues described in this thread so far!

Not even when multiboxing with five alts. I found that quite curious and did ask some others but they told me they did not hear those issues either.

I did notice a slightly more laggy playback when looking from an alts perspective rather than the main player, but that has been the same with the old music system!

It would be great if the devs could meet in game with the people who do have these sound issues in order to investigate those further!

It's only fair to give things some time, even though they may inconvience us as players for a while!

That said this should not become a story without an ending, where things keep being adjusted and tweaked!


Where from here? I'm sure there's many different views to that question!

Personally I would like to see the old lute added as a second lute as soon as possible, as this may improve things greatly.

Also I would welcome a volume increase for the flute (so it can better be used for lead melodies and give it some more brightness) and a slight volume decrease for the new lute.

I would not like to see the old system be rolled back just yet!

I fear another roll back would be an end to the efforts to improve the music system.

I've been quiet on this for some time because my thoughts are just a mess and I don't want it to turn into a rant. Good progress has been made, and I was really positive about the music system update the last communal test session on BR... until the devs in attendance started talking about this going live "soon". I also had a little voice in the back of my head saying "you don't have any alts on, that's the real test for you". It feels like our feedback was being listened to up to a point and then they got tired of the conflicting views or fed up with how long it was taking and pushed it to live despite all the cautions that it wasn't quite ready for that. There's obviously a few bands that don't use alts and aren't getting much of the horrid crackle effect, or you are one of the lucky ones who does have alts and doesn't get it. You are also lucky if you find a song with lute in it that isn't ruined by the banjo twangs. Until those are fixed, finding songs that are ok to play is exhausting. Continued tweaks has been hinted at which makes it even more frustrating that we'll have to repeatedly re-test songs to check if they are now playable (and wasn't it stated early on that they weren't going to do that? One update for the music system other than new instruments being introduced?).

~deep breath~

To comment on a few things, I do get the terrible crackle. I get very very little of it when playing an intestive lute part with just myself logged on. Adding alts and playing the same part gradually increases the crackle, to the point that when I have three alts on it can be so bad I can barely hear the actual music to tell if the song is ok, needs volume tweaks, or has dud notes and should be disregarded for the time being. There was a comment that being in Bree seemed to make it worse. I've found lag & my old audio issues (eg full volume water sounds, particuarly when an alt is near a water feature and the sounds will randomly persist even after no characters are anywhere near the apparent source of the sound) worse in Bree ever since it's revamp. What does seem to be different for me to what a few others have commented, the lute crackles don't affect me as soon as I log the alts off. Both porting them elsewhere first and logging them of in the same area as the music, the lute crackle stops.

I also don't want the system rolled back. Last time I wasn't worried that if the system was rolled back they would continue to work on it, this time though I am very concerned that if it's rolled back that it won't ever be touched again. The dynamic balance is better this time round. I've commented on my feelings about dynamic balance (ie matching the old live version vs making them match across all instruments) and don't really see the point in going over that again. As for the new samples, I don't have an issue with any of the new sounds. It would be nice to still have the old lute sound as it works much better for some songs but overall if those dodgy notes were fixed I could live with that being our only lute. With all of the instruments, if the dodgy notes were fixed I'd be happy with the new sounds. That said I don't think I will ever say no to a new instrument, and they seem more likely than increasing the octave range of current instruments.

I will plug on though it's not the most pleasant prospect with the system as it stands. Would love to see some comment from a blue name in here, after all this feedback from players

Dear Musicians,

At 2.00pm Servertime, Saturday 4th April. Landroval - Methel Stage.

I will be attempting to test TSO24.

We have a warm up
A Horn Concerto by Hummel
The Blue Danube
And
Symphony, Fellowship of the Ring.

This could be a time for us all to rejoice that my Orchestra is unscathed but I think I may need quite a few friends about me.

I too witnessed this timing playback issue - Could be something to do with lag?? Who knows.

I am prepared to wait for fixes but I do believe what would be the best outcome is to take the best bits of both systems. I would be happy with the old system but with Tuned Flute Clarinet and fixed Pib. The rest I would roll back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keli

Oh all right, I admit I forgot the pibby.

---

/scold :p
You know you love the Pib!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silmelin

About the weird sounds people are having:

Is there someone who can record the snap-crackle sound? I don't know what to listen for in game.


(This is going to be long because it's hard to explain things in a brief way when I don't have full control of the language I have to use. Sorry!)

I used to have weird sounds long ago when I multi-boxed to play music, at least when playing wind instruments. I had always set the other clients to Mute on focus loss but after an update long long ago that weird sound (like some of the notes would push through extremely loudly randomly. More and more often, the more clients I had) appeared.
Anyway, later I found that setting all clients to Disable instead of Mute worked. There would still be a few short loud BEEPS here and there, but a lot less than earlier.

That sound problem changed recently to this: Before this update I used to have a weird sound problem when playing wind instruments while having Chrome open with hundreds of tabs. If I closed it down the weird loud note sounds would disappear.

Now after the update the BEEPing sounds when playing wind instruments with Chrome web-browser open seems to be gone, but instead I have a new sound problem. When playing stringed instruments, even solo, I'll hear a loud static sound, like if someone is hiding behind my speakers, randomly wiggling the cord where it connects to the speaker. The more clients I have open, the more often the sound appears. I had all other clients set to Disable on focus loss.
Have not been able to try with Google Chrome closed or with a restarted computer as of yet. I have some work I must finish before I can shut things off, so it might take a few days.

---

I finally finished all I needed to take care of and could close down my Chrome web browser to see what would happen. The horrible loud static sounds (I mentioned above) during string instrument songs were instantly gone! Same thing used to happen before this update, except that the strange sounds came from the wind instruments and not the string instruments when playing LOTRO with Chrome open. Really weird! I always have Firefox open 24/7 and that browser has hundreds of tabs open too, and it never interferes with LOTRO :eek:

I'm still not sure what the snap-crackle sound lots of people are reporting is. Has anyone recorded it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silmelin

I'm still not sure what the snap-crackle sound lots of people are reporting is. Has anyone recorded it?

---

Someone posted a link to a recording of it awhile back. I had never heard it before watching the video.

Just some suggestions and observations.

If you are not getting the snap-pop/crackle bug, help out the community by posting what settings you are using. Are you using alts? How many alts? How big is your mult-part .abc file? Is it slow/fast paced? What is the song's BPM? How long is the song? We are glad some are unscathed by this bug, which has knocked out some bands so far. Perhaps it's a sensitivity issue to not use this unofficial debuggiing forum topic to declare a concert for those untouched by the current release of U15.3.

Turbine's focus during the last two BR testing put aside tonal qualities of instruments to dedicate their focus on the note-drop/snap-pop issue. I guess some here disagree with this higher priority decision by Turbine and have focused their attention on tonal qualities of instruments. I appreciate both can be show stoppers. However, one is an involuntary show stopping bug, the other is a loss of quality in the eyes (ears?) of the bandleaders. Magnitudes and priorities.

Using a browser, or any other application in desktop has been reported to intensify the snap-pop symptom. Unfortunately this is not news. I know there's a lot to read through here, and can empathize if some details are missed.

Turbine, Vyvyanne, or the dev's may be too busy to respond right now. There are other show stopper bugs to address in U15.3, but I'd like to think since they declared the de-bug "advanced far enough" prior to release, and the contrary has occurred, that this area merits a higher priority to address in any future fixes or updates.


http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg

All the love, gratitude and thanks to the Turbine team that fixed the issue.

Was going to record the snap-pop/crackle, and lo and behold. 132K, 1118K, heavy polyphonic songs that never played on BR properly now plays on Landroval.

*****

Snap-pop is gone.


*****

Played a few more heavy content songs to verify. Yup. It's gone away.

Had some invisible friends that seemed to bring some more invisible friends that sat in and confirmed.

I thanked them profusely and asked them to pass the word to the team.

Just minor note drops and hiccups that are of acceptable level for concert play. No greater that pre-U15.3 Live levels.

Breaking open a bottle of wine to celebrate. Wow. What a soap opera it has been, huh?

I wonder who those invisible audience members were that sat and danced??? Hmmmmm....


Now resume griping on the dud instrument notes

...as you were... :P

Harlequins will be resuming it's weekend tour this weeknd. ... fingers crossed. 1st venue in about 3 hours. lmao


http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frickinmuck

Someone posted a link to a recording of it awhile back. I had never heard it before watching the video.

---

Ooops I must have missed it! Thanks for the link :)

Yes that's exactly what I was hearing while having the Chrome web-browser open. The more game clients the worse it got (until I hardly could hear the music), and as soon as I closed Chrome it went away completely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey

Just some suggestions and observations.

If you are not getting the snap-pop/crackle bug, help out the community by posting what settings you are using. Are you using alts? How many alts? How big is your mult-part .abc file? Is it slow/fast paced? What is the song's BPM? How long is the song? We are glad some are unscathed by this bug, which has knocked out some bands so far. Perhaps it's a sensitivity issue to not use this unofficial debuggiing forum topic to declare a concert for those untouched by the current release of U15.3.

---

I'm sorry. I don't really know except that I set my clients to Disable instead of Mute on focus loss, and all settings are as high as I can understand to set them, which is mostly just clicking Ultra High on the overall graphics setting, and hoping that all the audio settings are set as they should automatically :o

I built my own computer, and knowing nothing about what I was doing I used google and my brother to help me find the things to put in it that would be most suited for my way of using a computer, which is: keeping the computer on for months on end and never closing any of my clogged-with-open-tabs web-browsers or other things I'm using, so I looked for stuff that would let me multi-task in the heaviest of ways, and for the longest of times without needing a restart :)

One day long ago after an update I started having sound problems (wind instruments only) while multi-boxing to play a song at Ales & Tales. Never tried to close Chrome then, so I don't know if it would have helped. Though I did keep having that problem ever since then, and when I finally tried closing Chrome and noticed that the problem went away, I haven't been using Chrome as much which is a problem for me since I need it. And after this update I can play wind instruments without closing Chrome but not string instruments.


EDIT:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey

All the love, gratitude and thanks to the Turbine team that fixed the issue.

Was going to record the snap-pop/crackle, and lo and behold. 132K, 1118K, heavy polyphonic songs that never played on BR properly now plays on Landroval.

*****

Snap-pop is gone.


*****

Played a few more heavy content songs to verify. Yup. It's gone away.

---

Oh oh oh! That's great news! :D

You snuck in your post while I was still writing mine so I'll use edit XD

Anyway, awesome news! :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey

All the love, gratitude and thanks to the Turbine team that fixed the issue.

Was going to record the snap-pop/crackle, and lo and behold. 132K, 1118K, heavy polyphonic songs that never played on BR properly now plays on Landroval.

*****

Snap-pop is gone.


*****

Played a few more heavy content songs to verify. Yup. It's gone away.

Had some invisible friends that seemed to bring some more invisible friends that sat in and confirmed.

I thanked them profusely and asked them to pass the word to the team.

Just minor note drops and hiccups that are of acceptable level for concert play. No greater that pre-U15.3 Live levels.

Breaking open a bottle of wine to celebrate. Wow. What a soap opera it has been, huh?

I wonder who those invisible audience members were that sat and danced??? Hmmmmm....

---

What do you mean by "invisible"? How did you know they were there? I didn't see an announcement; was this a "stealth" update, or a server-only change? Just curious.

Yeah. sorry for double post. But I think you'll understand it was big enough news to post right away, yes?

As always, planning for the worst. Following my own advice.

If you're still having problems with snap-pop, please post here all the settings you're using. Alts, no-alts, Song length, size, BPM. the usual. How many parts to the song I think I forgot. Just heading out now to the store and coming back to test on the 1st tour stop to make sure all songs play properly.


These were my settings;


Default audio setting.

Only master, user interface, and player music slider set to 1.
Focus Loss Behavior: Disable
Enable NPC colour Text Voiceover Sounds: off
Quantize Player Muisc: off
Low Latency Mode: off, leader set to on
All Voice toggles: off
All four VOICE sliders: set to 0.00 (bottom to left, 100 value acutally)

3 part songs tested:

Could you be loved BPM 102, 4:10, 76K,
Counting Pies BPM 124, 4:14, 72K,
If I ever lose my faith BPM 96, 4:37 132K,
Go West BPM 120, 4:56, 118K,
Remedy BPM 96, 4:10. 48K



Here's hoping it's a blanked solution and not just isolated to our band.
*invisible audience clapped, danced, sat* (GM) Maiar in attendance?



http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey

Yeah. sorry for double post. But I think you'll understand it was big enough news to post right away, yes?

---

Yes. :D

So was the improvement the result of you changing your settings? If so, which ones?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey

All the love, gratitude and thanks to the Turbine team that fixed the issue.
[...]
Snap-pop is gone.
[...]
Played a few more heavy content songs to verify. Yup. It's gone away.

---

Bara agree :) 5 lotroclients, no more snap-pop/crackle on heavy and speed content tunes!

Really appreciated!

Zed'Roaring'Rock!

Let me clarify. We did nothing on our end. We tried everything 24 hours ago and was just hopping on to record the snap-pop. Exact same settings.

To our pleasant surprise everything played to Pre-15.0 standards for gaps due to lag or minor drop out. maybe 2 snap in 5 soungs? Something that was impossible immediately following U15.3's release.



http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg

I'm glad you found some goodness out of this big mess Lolorn. Now if we could just get some happiness from the rest of the mess :)

I have no idea what has been done, but right now I am playing music with Chrome open again and no sound problems so far! It's been so long... probably a lot more than a year since I could play music without being forced to choose between hearing what I'm playing or being able to reach some of my friends! I really hope it stays this way :D

Thanks for continuing to work hard on our Music System, dear music team! <3

Well, I've finally came to the conclusion that the new system is by no means an improvement when all things are considered.
I just finished helping Lilikate and The Starlight Orchestra test a few of their songs, tested with Bright Star, and Les Beaux Chapeaux. Attended a few shows of other bands.
Everyone sounds generic now to me. No one band I've heard or tested with sounded any different than the last.
Instruments no longer blend to make alternate sounds which gave the music a unique sound from each band depending on how they transcribed and blended.
For example, I have used the clarinet and flute many times to achieve a nice mimic of many singers voices, or used the horn and bagpipe to derive an electric distortion guitar, overdrive guitar, harmonica or fiddle. Things we don't have in game.
The new system just doesn't cut it for those things anymore. TSO testing was a disappointment as Lilikate and the other TSO transcribers are some of the best, and their music was lessened by the new system as was Bright Stars and LBC's. I wanted to cry for them and for us. It was disheartening at best. The new lute is terrible and is just versatile enough to be used for renaissance period music and little more. The directional troubles do not help either. Standing behind the band to get a better sound is laughable.

My suggestion is roll back the music before Weatherstock begins. If they wish to continue working on this, do it in beta and leave it in beta until the testers by majority, agree it works.
I would rather see the old clarinet be tuned, and replace the missing note that is a cough, and same with the horn. It would be better than what we have now and its what we mostly wanted I believe. Not a new system, just fix the one we had. Then give us some new instruments as mentions before, a sustained theorbo, something to mimic a violin, ect. Add octaves if possible. Add notes to the cowbell to give us a variance since there are many bells that are used in music and a single note one really is limited.
Later on maybe add a lute that is actually a lute for those that want it, give us a mandolin sounding instrument or banjo.
It was a gallant effort but like so many things from Lotro, it was pushed out before it was ready. I just don't understand why pushing something out like that is better than giving a quality item that is ready for the market. It makes no sense at all to me.
Roll it back!

Flute and clarinet blending? Clarinet was horribly out-of-tune with the flute, as were many of the instruments, even with themselves. The system is much improved and I am sure not a part of the "majority" you like to speak for. Sure, tweaks are needed (especially the directional bug) but from the perspective of someone who works in the music field, it does not need to be rolled back. The new options for arranging and mixing instruments has incredible potential compared to the limits many of us used before.

IMHO, most of the exciting songs sound flatter and less energetic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Summer_Beor

Flute and clarinet blending? Clarinet was horribly out-of-tune with the flute, as were many of the instruments, even with themselves. The system is much improved and I am sure not a part of the "majority" you like to speak for. Sure, tweaks are needed (especially the directional bug) but from the perspective of someone who works in the music field, it does not need to be rolled back. The new options for arranging and mixing instruments has incredible potential compared to the limits many of us used before.

---

THIS. People who are basing their feedback on old files need to spend a bit of time experimenting with arrangements and judge the system based on NEW ABC files, not old libraries. I think it's totally unrealistic to expect everything to sound the same or to even sound great right out of the gate, using old files. Some work will be needed to achieve new and exciting arrangements. I do not miss, nor do I want to see, the old broken sounds and levels.

PLEASE don't call this update into a rollback because it means tweaking - or even completely rearranging - old files. Spend a bit of time making something new and exciting.

After some playing and listening to quite a few bands I think it is absolutely vital to repair the lute B's (B and b) as soon as possible - or give us the old lute back as that is basically the same!

To explain what was the lute changes actually:

All the samples are the same (maybe resampled) except the B and the b - although one can tell that the new B and b are probably derived from the old samples.
Also the damping sound that some of the tones of the middle octave had was removed - before it sounded like the player used his hand to stop the tone by putting it on the strings - I think it added to some songs because it mimics a certain way to play melodies on a guitar.

So the "new" Lute is just the old one, minus some details and with 2 broken tones.

Edit: I wonder what will be the result if I compare the other "new" sounds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Summer_Beor

Flute and clarinet blending? Clarinet was horribly out-of-tune with the flute, as were many of the instruments, even with themselves. The system is much improved and I am sure not a part of the "majority" you like to speak for. Sure, tweaks are needed (especially the directional bug) but from the perspective of someone who works in the music field, it does not need to be rolled back. The new options for arranging and mixing instruments has incredible potential compared to the limits many of us used before.

---

Yes! Speaking as someone not working in the music field, having in-tune instruments is very helpful. I have no talent to use to try to work around the out-of-tune Clarinet so I could hardly use it at all :( The more in-tune the instruments are, the easier for us "commoners" to join in the fun as well :)

I knew right from the start that the music update would require the reworking of ABCs since that was said right away and I don't mind at all. It'll be easier to make music now with in-tune instruments :) And lots of changes can probably be made with the help of a program =)

Though there are still things to be fixed of course.

We might all have different bugs on the top of our lists, but now that the crackling sound is gone, the Lute would be at the top of my list :)


The biggest problem I'm having isn't the twangy note/s even though it's near the top of my list. At the very top is that I can't play any solo Lute songs, or duets, without the melody-"rythm" sounding kind of... off. Not sure how to explain it but it sounds like when a beginner is trying to learn to play an instrument. Even when you know the song, there will be hesitation in your fingers so the melody will have pauses when you are trying to find the next note to play.

Instead of:
PlingPlingPlingPlingPlingPling PlingPlingPlingPlingPling
I'm getting:
PlingPling..PlingPlingPlingPli ng..PlingPlingPling..PlingPlin g
So it sounds quite bad.

Music team, would you please please take a look at that? :)

I have always said the clarinet was out of tune, never claimed it was in tune. But I have found that by dropping the flute an octave under the clarinet on the same part, depending on how I set my volume, blended very well to create a melody. I've been able to mimic many singers voices with it and very well. Anyone who has seen LBC play knows as much. So yes, they blended very well the two if used well.

I just looked in detail at the samples of the new vs the old horn - it is still the same instrument, but filtered - in general the lower octaves had some of the deeper frequencies filtered out. Some of the higher tones are virtually the same. The cough at the low end was replaced by a tone - I think the cough had it's reason and should have remained, but I can live with the change. Also there are some adjusted volumes - so one could really say that the horn was improved in some aspects!


So in short: the new horn = old horn + a little filter on the bass sounds in the lower half and a few volume corrections, no pitch corrections/squeek removal in the higher octave

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Emere

I have always said the clarinet was out of tune, never claimed it was in tune. But I have found that by dropping the flute an octave under the clarinet on the same part, depending on how I set my volume, blended very well to create a melody. I've been able to mimic many singers voices with it and very well. Anyone who has seen LBC play knows as much. So yes, they blended very well the two if used well.

---

That worked because both flute and clarinet were a little out of tune. The flute was transposed one octave higher than the clarinet, so by shifting it down you were playing them on the identical frequency. And because they were both not perfectly tuned, the addition of the two created a kind of interference with it's own frequency (depending on the missmatch). This is called additive synthesis which is one of the techniques to create synthesizer sounds (in a way that combined sounded like a synthesizer).

As we got in-tune instruments now, this method doesn't create those interference effects anymore - so yes, it's sad to loose that trick, but we can't have in-tune instruments and do that at the same time! So while asking for in-tune instruments we were actually asking for this effect to be removed....

The only solution for that is to include the pitch-wheel event in the lotro music system, so we can deliberatly detune the instruments to create this effect on purpose - it would open up a lot of options for new sounds, but maybe it'd violate the idea of a medieval music band playing songs if we could crank around with the base frequency of our instruments during a song.

I guess the old saying : "be carefull what you wish for" matches this story perfectly.

Aye, I suppose so, but that still doesn't explain why the music sounds so lifeless and dull and flat now. I was happy with the new horn as well, as I thought it was great at first glance, and I still like it, but even that has lost is flare with many of the songs I have. It works great for my pink panther, but for rock, not so much anymore. It varies song to song but seems less useful than before. I still think overall (the music system) is less than what we had before. I think its going to make every band sound like the next aside from what they chose to play as is my feelings from what I have already heard from different bands. I really do hope much more work is done on the system or its rolled back because at this point in time, I have no intention of transcribing anymore songs save one and that is for Mrs Tearna for a story she wants to do. A song I already have but doesn't work so well now. Think I can make it at least somewhat playable. :/

After much testing, some ranting, more thinking and listening I have come to the conclusion that if we are to have adjustments to the current system I would like to know what it is Devs/sound people plan to do to improve the current system. I also want a time table of when we can expect these fixes and tweaks.

I want to give the new system a real chance before I start campaigning for a return to the old system. I don't think we had an improved system at all. I think we have had a changed system with as many issues if not more issues than our old music system.

I must admit I lean toward agreeing with those who think the old system is better - Is it possible to have both sets of instruments? Sort out the directional sound issue, reset the lute, add a mandolin, fix the short cut on the pipes? Get a new un-breathed sample for the lower range on the flute, do something with the clarinet sample to make it sound clarinetty? Etc etc.....

I know you gave it a good try and I appreciate the efforts made to improve the system but the end result is just not doing the job.

I edit this post with a pair of links to my version of The Blue Danube.

Freemark aka Tim posted a live stream from our testing session https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKt04P7Yfhs

I have posted a dubbed file with Audio taken from my finished abc file project. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPTC...ature=youtu.be

They should sound alike but do differ! What differences can you hear??

Thanks and congrats to the devs for sticking with it and fixing the bugs. I have renewed respect for you guys.

Now it's time to put the bow on the package, as it were. A (relatively small) additional effort now will make all the difference in users' perception of this change.

Well, just played concert and had awful click/pops. I don't think this is anything to do with new system specifically but I do wonder if any other changes were to playback at all. I tried changing speaker drivers etc but no good. Other members of the band did not seem to be affected.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keli

Well, just played concert and had awful click/pops. I don't think this is anything to do with new system specifically but I do wonder if any other changes were to playback at all. I tried changing speaker drivers etc but no good. Other members of the band did not seem to be affected.

---

In Bree? That is where I was getting them. I still wonder if it doesn't have something to do with area. I do not seem to get them in the homesteads very often, didn't get any at Methal stage when I was helping Lilikate. When I beta tested I did it in Bree outside the pony and got a lot of them, got a few when I tested after update when live in same location. You might try playing a different location just to see if it still happens or happens as often.

I edited my last post with some nice audio examples. Listen for yourselves to the new quality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keli

Well, just played concert and had awful click/pops. I don't think this is anything to do with new system specifically but I do wonder if any other changes were to playback at all. I tried changing speaker drivers etc but no good. Other members of the band did not seem to be affected.

---

Could you list your options:Audio settings? Which sound card? How many alts? Location in Bree? Song file size, BPM, how many parts, duration of song?
Oh, do you have any background windows running? Besides songbook and lyrical, do you have any other LUA plugins running?

This would help out the devs in identifying the problem I think. I bet they would love to know what's causing the problems too.

We're on concert #7 in Bree across servers, and so far so good. Yes, there's still the occasional drop out and lag gap, and the odd chord delay, but snap-pop is gone for us. Testing now to be certain if something's changed prior to today's concert set.




http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg

For ease of comparison, here are Katiepie's two videos, with the start times adjusted to match. You can switch back and forth between the two to compare them.

First video: New LOTRO music system rendition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPTCYO0nPyc&amp;t=13

(I'll post the second video in another message since the forum won't let me put two videos in one message.)

Here are Katiepie's videos, with the start times adjusted to match. You can open them in two separate windows and switch back and forth to compare.

Video 1: Maestro rendition

Video 2: New music system rendition

You should redo this with the lutes, one of the worst features of the new system, it looks like the second test when we switched to harps on the lute parts.

Fotr will go up with lutes next Finny... It is true the recording on the live stream is after I decided to stop the Orchestra and switch all the Lutes to Harps. I am not saying with the old system the Symphony played really well in LOTRO but I can't even imagine how to rework the orchestra's files to avoid all the "dodgy" notes on all the various different instruments and still be able to pull out of the hat something that can compare to these large classical pieces. I'll post a link when I have uploaded that second Symphony.

Freemark I didn't use Maestro for the finished product, I used Bruzo's "BruTE". Without this converter of Bruzo's I would not be able to eliminate duplicate tones and I would always have too many notes and be subject to the random droppage that you may have heard us speak of from time to time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRnyhPL7K6Y

Please see Freemarks Live Stream (last 13 minutes) to listen to the FOTR Symphony as you can hear it in game now.

Hello music team! :)

Could you please keep us a bit up to date with what's going on? :) I think much of the worry might be about not knowing what's being worked on. And if you add any fixes, would you mind posting them here real quick so we know when to test things? :) Once again, thank you so much for continuing to work on this! <3

2 issues.

Should we make a new 16.0 Player music thread or stay here?

Regardless of the maxsounds filter, there seems to be a three simultaneous note limit to the current system per part in a multi-part .abc file.

*****
Was testing on BR this morning, and was experimenting with some of the songs that are big in size, fast in tempo, and filled with chords. When I edited the parts to have no more than 4 simultaneous notes, or a chord, the drop out seems to disappear. Not sure if it's because of the tempo, or the density of notes within a bar, but this may be the status quo if the music system is not updated to match the capabilities of the previous system. At most 4 simultaneous notes can be supported, but in my experiments 3 seemed to be the safe limit.

This may fly in the face of some here that say we should disregard the old system (and supported .abc files from that system), and go and explore this new system. It may directly support what some here are saying to roll back the system.

Could Turbine please look into this?

It's quite easy to replicate. Take one track and 'stack' it by an octave shift up or down, then merge it with an existing part/track. This does not explain the drum track dropout from the 'saltshaker' rattle, but may be a cause of that drop out.

It is a loss in capability of the music system to support chords, or more specifically, stacked chords.

Food for thought, Turbine.



http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg

I have a question that is probably totally unrelated to the music system changes, but maybe not. Has the animation of the characters changed for playing any of the instruments?

I noticed something while checking out how the music files I have sound on the lute with the new music system in place.

My elf and my hobbit ladies make really weird faces while playing the lute and theorbo. Their eyes go back and forth and their eyebrows go up and down. Their mouths hang open through the whole thing and the elves have a weird twitch at the corners of their mouths. Makes for a really strange look and I never noticed this before. Is this something new?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Annelian

I have a question that is probably totally unrelated to the music system changes, but maybe not. Has the animation of the characters changed for playing any of the instruments?

I noticed something while checking out how the music files I have sound on the lute with the new music system in place.

My elf and my hobbit ladies make really weird faces while playing the lute and theorbo. Their eyes go back and forth and their eyebrows go up and down. Their mouths hang open through the whole thing and the elves have a weird twitch at the corners of their mouths. Makes for a really strange look and I never noticed this before. Is this something new?

---

Sounds to me like you have one of the mood emotes turned on. Open your emotes and choose mood_calm and see if that changes anything.

I'm afraid those silly faces come standard when playing those instruments! It has been like that for quite a while!

The mood emotes can be used to mitigate them though!

Regarding 01APR15 15.3 live build (Version 1503.0056.2720.4054)

After giving some time for hotfixes, I've gone through each note of every instrument to enumerate the most glaringly off-timbre notes. From my last perusal in beta (https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...83#post7317583), some notes have been fixed, other notes have new issues, but the vast majority remain as they were in the 11FEB15 15.2 beta build.

Inter-Dynamic Balance: A quick note here. The dynamic balance between most of the instruments is satisfactory with the exception of the lute and the "shakers" on the drum. These both seem to be ~15% louder overall using the other instruments as a baseline. More detail below.

Intra-Timbre Balance: See detailed below.

Clarinet:
F3 -- Has a "loose reed" sound that makes it stand out from the other notes. It is identified by a noticeable buzzing vibration on the attack of the note.
A3 -- A noticeable warble on the attack.
A#4 - Has a very noticeable metallic "trumpet-like" timbre that sustains throughout the note

Flute:
D2 -- Noticeably breathy compared to the other notes
B2 -- Same as D2
C#3 -- Same as D2
F3 -- Has a very hard attack compared to other notes. Meaning, the breath is pushed out very forcefully across the lip plate before settling into the desired force. This note plays very much like a note with a permanent "accent" and can make it undesirably stand out in a piece. Also breathy as a result.
D#4 -- Seems to be about ~15% softer dynamically compared to the other notes.
A4 -- Noticeable metallic sound on the attack
A#4 -- Same as F3
C5 -- Same as D2


Horn:
C#2 -- Has a noticeably "buzzy" timbre compared to the other notes. This timbre aberration is sustained throughout the duration of the note sample.
C#3 -- A slight, but noticeable "buzzy" timbre as if someone played a note on a saxophone with a slightly hard attack. Unlike C#2, this is very short and does not sustain throughout the note.
D4 -- A slight, but noticeable "buzzy" timbre. Similar to C#3.
G4 --Same as C#3

Bagpipe:
Again, I hear no glaring single note timbre issues with the bagpipes. However, I still am hearing a very noticeable "click" on most of the notes when the tone is stopped mid sample and not only while playing quickly. It is clearly not a sample issue and anyone who has worked around audio editing has dealt with this before. I would normally chalk it up to my output hardware, but since several others have mentioned hearing similar issues, I thought it worth bringing it up again.

Lute:
DYNAMIC BALANCE: The dynamics of this instrument are noticeably louder than what is otherwise a pretty good balance between the other instruments. The overall dynamic level could be dropped by ~15% to mesh better with the other instruments.
D#2 -- Has a pitch shift on the sustain (a "warble") as if a finger vibrato was applied to the note.
B3 -- This note has a very pronounced metallic sound more similar to a steel string guitar or banjo than the gut-string sound of the rest of the notes on the lute.
C4 -- Similar to D#2. An odd pitch warble on the sustain. Again as if finger vibrato was applied.
F4 -- Similar to B3. Less pronounced, but an extremely audible metallic ping on the attack.
B4 -- Similar to B3, less pronounced.
C5 -- Similar to B3, less pronounced.
*Sidenote: I want to clarify to the reader-at-large, this is an attempt to balance within the overall timbre of the new sample. I am aware that the new sample has changed to an overall sharper, more "lute-like" sound. Suggestion: Since the Lyre model is already in game (as seen used by NPCs in Gondor) and uses the same animations as the harp, is there some way to satisfy both this new sample and the old lute sample through the introduction of a non-combat Lyre? Just a spitball.

Harp:
*EDIT: I'm still unclear if the old samples can be adjusted. If not, then ignore. If so, then the following:
D#2 -- Has a slight "metallic" sound compared to the other notes, as if it was picked by a fingernail instead of the finger.
C#3 -- Same as D#2.
F3 -- Same as D#2.
G3 - Same as D#2.
G#3 -- Same as D#2, but more pronounced.

Theorbo:
C#3 -- Too much pitch shift on the reverb. Meaning the "wavy" sound a plucked string gives off after played is unnaturally broad -- almost as if this specific note has a finger vibrato applied, rather than just its natural vibrato.
A3 -- Same as C#3
C#4 -- Same as C#3, more pronounced.
D#4 -- Same as C#3.
E4 -- Same as C#3.
A4 -- Has the pitch shift reverb issue as in C#3, but also has a "hard attack" sound on the pluck that is noticeably different than the timbre on the attack of the other notes.
A#4 -- Has both of the issues of A4.
B4 -- Same as C#3.
C5 -- Has both of the issues of A4.

Pibgorn:
A2 -- The pitch starts off a quarter-step lower in tone and slurs up to the proper pitch. As if the musician is quickly correcting sloppy finger positioning.
A#2 -- Same as A2.
B2 -- Same as A2.
C3 -- A very noticeably different sounding timbre as if being played on a different instrument. It has a very sharp trumpet-like timbre rather than the more mellow accordion-like timbre of the majority of the pibgorn notes.
G#3 -- Similar to C3, less pronounced.
A3 -- Same as A2, but instead starts a full half-step before slurring into the proper pitch. Playing G#3 followed by A3 sounds like G#3, G#3, A3.
A#3 -- Same as A2.
B3 -- Same as A2.
C4 -- Same as C3.
G#4 -- Same as C3.
A4 -- Same as A2. Also is a full half-step slur like A3.
A#4 -- Same as A2.
B4 -- Same as A2.

Drums, Cowbell, Moor Cowbell:
Nothing inconsistent here timbre-wise. However, the shakers on the drums seem to have been increased in volume by my ear. Dropping them down by ~15% I think would create a better overall balance with the rest of the instruments. The other sounds (drums, stick hits, etc.) are fine. For clarity, these are the shaker notes on the drum: C#2, F#2, G#2, A#2, G#3, A3, B3, & C4.

============================== =====

It would be appreciated if we can get some feedback on if the development team is aware of these issues and are planning to address them in future builds, or if they are generally happy with the timbre balance as it stands on live. Thank you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpiritusLOTRO

Regarding 01APR15 15.3 live build (Version 1503.0056.2720.4054)
It would be appreciated if we can get some feedback on if the development team is aware of these issues and are planning to address them in future builds, or if they are generally happy with the timbre balance as it stands on live. Thank you.

---

I think many of us are waiting to hear from the blue names about this.

Concerning the rest of your post.
Outstanding work Mr Lifimun. I am glad you have the knowledge and experience to find and explain what I couldn't put into words well. Much more thorough than I could ever be too.
The only addition I can think to add now is that I think the upper octaves of the Theorbo now sound more bell like. I do not know why it does, but it does to me. I noticed it during testing the other night and it makes the Theorbo sound really bad in the upper range. It stood out on one of the songs we tested and then on my Victor Wooten bass solo. I hope it is something else they fix. I always wanted, like many others, bells for our music system, but this is not acceptable.

I have seen much potential with the new system but at the same time, I am unhappy with it. I think it takes away the creativity needed to make some really nice songs and in essence, has dumbed down the entire system making every band sound more generic and alike. Just as important, we were told we may have to tweak some songs here and there. That we wouldn't have to toss out or redo most of our files, and now has grown into we wanted this enough to be willing to adjust most all of them. I am unsure where that came from as I never was wanting to have to redo the majority of my songs. I wanted a few missing notes replaced and a bit of tuning done, then some new instruments added.
The new system doesn't, as is right now support bands like da Bugans genre of music which is heavy metal. The old lute and horn worked really well for it, but the new lute and horn just do not. Don't get me wrong, I love the new horn, but we lost as much as we gained from it. Kirk Hammett on the new lute...how depressing is that? Granted, they spoke of giving us another lute to replace the one we had but how long will that be? I still don't believe the new lute covers well for piano either, another loss of a bunch of songs that wont ever sound right on the new lute. It was the best substitute we had for a concert piano, electric piano, acoustic guitar and often worked really well for some heavy metal grinds.

All my other rants and misgivings from earlier posts go here. Blah blah blah.

I think we deserve to have some kind of update as to what will be done, or attempted to be done, and what kind of time frame we are looking at.
I am pretty much in limbo musically at this moment in time and do not wish to do much at all until I have an idea of what we are up against.
I will for sake of our band, tweak a few songs to get us through a few more concerts, but I will not continue to go into this blindly for very much longer.

Yay for bunny pets even if it isn't gonna be a cute little grey bunny like I always wanted!
~Now supporting hobbit combat bunny pets such as the Killer Bunny of Caerbannog~

After looking into clarinet, lute, bagpipes, horn -

I have the suspicion that the biggest part of the so called "sprucing up" of the music system was to apply a frequency filter around the 40Hz region to cancel out the low frequency components of the old tones and otherwise minimal changes to volume and some pitch-adjustments.

I wished that would have been said in the patch notes, it would have been much clearer why we can't accept these changes!

This is why our instruments sound flat now - it is kind of like removing the reverberating body of the instruments; remove the backside of a guitar or listen to them through a telephone and you'll have a similar effect (much more pronounced yes, but the tendency of the patch goes towards that direction).


In short: there is no new instruments .. only slightly crippled versions of the old instruments (the exception are those with adjusted pitches, those ones are first fixed and then also crippled).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SchorschiSchrumpf

After looking into clarinet, lute, bagpipes, horn -

I have the suspicion that the biggest part of the so called "sprucing up" of the music system was to apply a frequency filter around the 40Hz region to cancel out the low frequency components of the old tones and otherwise minimal changes to volume and some pitch-adjustments.

I wished that would have been said in the patch notes, it would have been much clearer why we can't accept these changes!

This is why our instruments sound flat now - it is kind of like removing the reverberating body of the instruments; remove the backside of a guitar or listen to them through a telephone and you'll have a similar effect (much more pronounced yes, but the tendency of the patch goes towards that direction).


In short: there is no new instruments .. only slightly crippled versions of the old instruments (the exception are those with adjusted pitches, those ones are first fixed and then also crippled).

---

I noticed the theorbo has a few high notes that sound more like a bell than a bass too. So much that needs fixed. I'm a sad bunny...

Thanks Lifi for that detailed note for note tonal description.

I am in full agreement with Lifi on all these note issues. I am also in agreement with Bruzo and Emere that the quality of the entire system has been dropped by cutting the reverb of the instruments. Especially the Wind and Brass.

Personally I am of the opinion that they should have just tuned the old system if that was possible to do or started from scratch and not tried to put single note new samples in the complete ranges.

I thank you for your efforts and I believe it was worth a try but I am thinking we are not in possession now of an improved system on the old. I await with interest on any comment that will be made from official sources.

The thing that frustrates me is that we have so little information about the changes from Turbine.

• What is the nature and extent of the changes to the music system?
• What is the rationale for these decisions?

A dev chat and/or some more thorough release notes would be helpful.

I suggested on the twich stream the other day, that we have the music devs do a twich concert and give us a chance to discuss the music system. It was during the Quartermasters twitch stream and Frelorn was present in chat. I did not see a response so I do not expect it to happen but thought it would be a good idea.
I cannot agree more about hearing something though. The silence is deafening.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Katiepie

I want to give the new system a real chance before I start campaigning for a return to the old system.

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Hate to "enrage" the music community(Is it even possible to do such a thing?) but:

You mean like we did with U15 Music System? :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by robbie1435

You mean like we did with U15 Music System? :)

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The fundamental differences between U15 & U15.3 are apparent for anyone who has engaged in the process during these past months. I was very open to U15 during beta testing. But the live product was nearly universally panned as not just a "first attempt," but as wholly incomplete. There was only one beta release of the U15 music system and it did not receive /any/ attention past that initial release until it went live. Completely inexcusable. It was quite literally a first stab beta build pushed live. I've never seen its equal in sheer audacity.

This time around there has been engagement (in the beta process) and a far better live product. Not to say that live product is "finished" by any stretch. It is not. If I were developing this system in a vacuum without any downward pressure, it would still be in beta.

However, I like to remain part of the solution when I can. I feel this can be fixed if the developers have the same level of engagement for the U16 beta as they did in U15.3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpiritusLOTRO

However, I like to remain part of the solution when I can. I feel this can be fixed if the developers have the same level of engagement for the U16 beta as they did in U15.3.

---

The trouble is, nothing has been posted about anything musically in U16 beta from what Ive seen and I noticed no difference when I tested. We need to hear from the Devs and know whats changed so we can address those changes, if any have been made. It would also be nice, as already requested, that they say something here to update us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Emere

The trouble is, nothing has been posted about anything musically in U16 beta from what Ive seen and I noticed no difference when I tested. We need to hear from the Devs and know whats changed so we can address those changes, if any have been made. It would also be nice, as already requested, that they say something here to update us.

---

Yes I totally agree, I would really like to have some kind of statement - the total lack of reactions to our posts here makes me wonder.

Taking into account how the majority of the changes was generated, which is for the most samples just a frequency filter, I feel a bit like we were taken for a ride (wasn't there the word -rerecorded- somewhere ?).

I have been most fortunate, to have been invited to listen to a number of bands these past few weeks. I have also been in intensive testing sessions within my own sphere of bands both within LMB, as well as Bugginses Bands. I have witnessed some songs which have either not included those portions of scales which have problems, or the issues have been crafted around in the file making process. I have also been party to arrangements where I was the only person to find fault with the end product. I too am waiting to hear something from the devs as to the next step. In absence of this I really just want the whole thing put back to how it was, warts and all. I am getting tired and a little jaded at this whole episode. I thank all involved for trying! It was well worth the attempt. But without notice of any improvements soon I will not be able to lend support to our new music system. A shame as this was not the opinion I had before u15.3.

Hamster running laps in a spinning wheel?

@Lifimum. Nice work. That's a lot of work for Turbine to digest. Give them some time to go over it? Regarding the low band filter. There's probably some truth to it, but as in all things in life, there's probably a catch, and I don't believe its all old samples. Don't make me break out the analysis tools. I can hear the differences to believe it's not entirely the case it's old instrument samples. Three outcomes. You're right. Turbine gets caught red-handed. You're wrong. Your credibility just took a nose dive. Half and half. Both sides feel frustrated all their hard work is unappreciated and animosity increases. No winners here. Be cordial. Be nice. Use proof. Show data. Can't ignore hard info. Just another opinion to ignore? heh.

I'm sorry to report, I thought it was something on our end during testing this week prior to concerts.

Snap-pop is back.

I know it's server side, since we rehearsed 4 days in a row, and today it's back, and I've done nothing different on my end. I'm going to double check now on our end for the rest of the day for as long as my paitence can muster along with the band, but these are re-written songs designed to keep under the 3 note limit, and today the snap-pop has returned. So much for the reprive. How long was that? 6 days?

With this sudden development, and pending testing on our end to find any other causes, Harlequins is pulling all concerts from this day onwards until verified tested songs are playable in concert on live servers. Lay and I did a lot of work to make it three note/chord compatible, and now this develops. sigh. We also kept the concert playlist from last week and all of them now play with snap-pop.

Sorry folks. I gues it's something they're doing to prepare for U16? *sigh*....

Piper down!



http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg

This is very odd. Calanne was having trouble with the static sounds ect. I suggested turning all alt volumes down, focus loss behavior to disable sounds, and disable game sounds checked. The way I normally do it and have had success with so far is, I load my main. Then I load one alt and set the options as above. I then close my alt account and restart my launcher and launch all my alts so I don't have to set each one and they boot up with those settings. Calanne tried it and reported back that the trouble went away. I will check back with Calanne later when I am able to see if the problem has returned or not, using those settings. So far, I've not gone back to Bree to see if the trouble is worse there with all my alts up and running but with only part of them at the Bright Star show, I was having no trouble at all.

Yeah. just to confirm. Was playing Monday, Wed. Thurs, and today. Only happened today at rehearsals prior to today's concert rotation. We agreed to pull the plug. It's a recent development. We're going to test some more later on. Just making the cancellation announcement rounds on each server.



http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg

Hmmm.....
I keep checking back to see if any new word from Blue Names. Its not very encouraging to not hear anything at all from them suddenly.

Thought I'd let folks know I too am checking back often. It has been suggested that we post in a more recent forum than this?? What think my fellow musickers?

Hi all,

We are very focused on getting update 16 completed and out the door. I do not have the resources available currently to do another focus pass on the music system but if you keep the feedback coming, submit bugs with the specific problems you are having, notes, instruments, etc we will get to them as we can. SpiritusLOTRO does an excellent job of laying out specifics for example.

Thank you,
Vyvyanne

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vyvyanne

Hi all,

We are very focused on getting update 16 completed and out the door. I do not have the resources available currently to do another focus pass on the music system but if you keep the feedback coming, submit bugs with the specific problems you are having, notes, instruments, etc we will get to them as we can. SpiritusLOTRO does an excellent job of laying out specifics for example.

Thank you,
Vyvyanne

---

I think the statement "get to them as we can" is the scariest thing I have heard in some time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Emere

I think the statement "get to them as we can" is the scariest thing I have heard in some time.

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I would take the statement as simply meaning our resources are already fully tasked with U16 and once its out the door this will be on the list of things they figure the priority of for resources.

Could it mean they aren't fixed for a couple of months yes. We hope its not that long but it is a possiblity.

Could it mean that they are in a 16.1 update or a hotfix a couple weeks after u16 is live yes. This is the option we can best hope for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Emere

I think the statement "get to them as we can" is the scariest thing I have heard in some time.

---

Vyv has given the Music System more love in her short tenure than we've seen in years. She's earned a little trust, methinks.

Hindsight is 20/20, yes. Now it makes more sense. Why the urgency for release of U15.3. With the focus now off the music system with U16 and East Gondor and the new PvMP; priorities. Yes? Resources on a white board and timeline.

It's true there more done to the music system under Vyvyanne's tenure, but is some of it attributed to the previous Exec? Is it entirely her directives? Please take credit where it's due. No strings. I mean this in a good way. Let us know if it has been entirely your efforts?
How do you resolve the statement of it's "advanced far enough" vs what we got in U15.3?
Actual product vs history vs intentions. I just don't know how she could easily resolve or repair the damage done. Both in the actual system and credibility.
We played the test files sent in to Turbine during BR and after U15.3's release. They have the files that show the problem. Aged apple, promised golden apple. Raisins given us. it's really hard to resolve the pre-release statements, the actual release, the hidden serverside fix, and the taking away of such fix.

I still believe in her heart she intends to get to the system after U16 goes live. I even agree U16 and the new PvMP is a higher priority. But once again, this is a time sensitive matter. With each week's cancelled concerts, not only the bands, but the fans will come to expect there's less hope of a fix coming, and move on to other things. That's the biggest loss. the fans and audience of the music system.

I can only speak of our band's intentions; to spread the wealth of lore of what we have learned and are capable of using the music system. Which is why we've not sought any limelight nor high profile events. Like bards of old, we just want to play music we like and are capable of by visiting as many 'towns' (servers) and let people know who are willing to listen and like minded. I think it was a good dream. Unfortunately we are silenced now. Though well intentioned, it now seems it will be weeks or months rather than a priority to be fixed at present. I am sad, but it is what it is.

I think once calmed down. a full detailed bug report can be sent it. Despite the past, and no promises or expectations of when and how much of a fix can be done, our own conscience can be clear in the fact that we've documented as fully as possible the current state of affairs. At least 9 servers got a 1 hour concert under U15.3 before we were silenced. There's that silver lining, yes?




http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Northwoods

Vyv has given the Music System more love in her short tenure than we've seen in years. She's earned a little trust, methinks.

---

I agree completely. Many snugly bunny hugs to her for that too. But we still have no idea of any time frame for fixes. We still know nothing more than before.
Please understand where I am coming from on this. Music is really all I do in game. Pretty much all I have done for a very long time in game. What little role play I do is centered around the music community as well. When I skraid or raid, its with my fellow musicians. So for me, its pretty much a broken game now.
It is why I canceled my subscription. It doesn't make any sense to renew it with the hope that someday it will be fixed. Three months of vip here will buy you into the pre-alpha of SotA for petes sake. ((And for $10, I was able to buy a bunny pet!))

Though my band(s) have continued doing shows, its surely not the same. We (LBC) have had to cut our concert performances down to two a month as we struggle to fix songs enough that they are at least playable and for me, I've very little enjoyment with it since my entire library of songs was all but destroyed. Nothing sounds as good as it once did even after tweaking and fixing. Music sounds flat and lifeless. Instruments are more in tune now, but overall have more problems than we had before, more things broken, and it just doesn't sound nearly as good as it once did.

Last but not least, some of us did a ton of beta testing and said its not ready to go live. We were not looking for perfection by any means, but we all knew what kind of work it would take to fix our songs and had somewhat of an idea of how many wouldn't be fixable for the time being. It is not easy to get an entire band online for testing as much as is currently required just to continue on, providing you want to sound at least half good. It took our band two weeks just to get enough songs fixed well enough to do one show for an hour. With that in mind, we now are faced with the idea, if things get fixed little by little, then the work load for us is going to be huge if we wish to continue having shows. Each time something gets changed down the line, we will have to adjust everything we just adjusted, or start completely over. It would have been better to leave it in beta until things were fixed and the system working decently. I would have preferred starting over once as opposed to starting over each time a new hotfix or update comes out. All we can do now is be testers and bug reporters and quite honestly, Turbine isn't paying us enough for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey

it's really hard to resolve the pre-release statements, the actual release, the hidden serverside fix, and the taking away of such fix.

---

I don't think we have enough evidence to be sure this actually happened. It seems unlikely. In fact, I think it's more likely that the performance is marginal on your machine, and other variables (such as the number of musicians playing, people dancing, etc.) accounted for the fact that you sometimes saw the problem and sometimes didn't.

Although since the devs never provided release notes to us, we can't know for sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Emere

I agree completely. Many snugly bunny hugs to her for that too. But we still have no idea of any time frame for fixes. We still know nothing more than before.
Please understand where I am coming from on this. Music is really all I do in game. Pretty much all I have done for a very long time in game. What little role play I do is centered around the music community as well. When I skraid or raid, its with my fellow musicians. So for me, its pretty much a broken game now.
It is why I canceled my subscription. It doesn't make any sense to renew it with the hope that someday it will be fixed. Three months of vip here will buy you into the pre-alpha of SotA for petes sake. ((And for $10, I was able to buy a bunny pet!))

Though my band(s) have continued doing shows, its surely not the same. We (LBC) have had to cut our concert performances down to two a month as we struggle to fix songs enough that they are at least playable and for me, I've very little enjoyment with it since my entire library of songs was all but destroyed. Nothing sounds as good as it once did even after tweaking and fixing. Music sounds flat and lifeless. Instruments are more in tune now, but overall have more problems than we had before, more things broken, and it just doesn't sound nearly as good as it once did.

Last but not least, some of us did a ton of beta testing and said its not ready to go live. We were not looking for perfection by any means, but we all knew what kind of work it would take to fix our songs and had somewhat of an idea of how many wouldn't be fixable for the time being. It is not easy to get an entire band online for testing as much as is currently required just to continue on, providing you want to sound at least half good. It took our band two weeks just to get enough songs fixed well enough to do one show for an hour. With that in mind, we now are faced with the idea, if things get fixed little by little, then the work load for us is going to be huge if we wish to continue having shows. Each time something gets changed down the line, we will have to adjust everything we just adjusted, or start completely over. It would have been better to leave it in beta until things were fixed and the system working decently. I would have preferred starting over once as opposed to starting over each time a new hotfix or update comes out. All we can do now is be testers and bug reporters and quite honestly, Turbine isn't paying us enough for that.

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I haven't been using the music system myself lately but if it is really this badly broken then I have to say that the old system needs to be rolled back into LIVE with u16 until there is the time to get the system perfect.

Quote:

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We are very focused on getting update 16 completed and out the door. I do not have the resources available currently to do another focus pass on the music system but if you keep the feedback coming, submit bugs with the specific problems you are having, notes, instruments, etc we will get to them as we can. SpiritusLOTRO does an excellent job of laying out specifics for example.

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I understand the focus is on game development at this present moment. Update 16 is very important to the LOTRO community.

I have key mapped my entire range and was about to make a note for note report when I noticed Lifi (SpiritusLOTRO) had beaten me to it with his excellent note for note post above. It seems redundant for me to just replicate this work but if Vivian tells me they need it in duplicate I am willing to do so.

I hope your loose plans of getting to these issues asap, mean we can have the worst issues resolved by Weatherstock... (July-ish).

These would include:
The twangy inconsistent Lute notes.
The breathy low notes on the flute.
Metallic clarinet notes.
Issues with Theobro range.
Short note on the Bagpipes issue.
The very strange directional sound issues.
The quality of the sound and blend of instruments needs looking at again. Often I have found the sound I hear reminds me of listening to music in a big echoy room or hall.


I would be thrilled to see some if not all these problems addressed for the better.

As it stands I know of two bands who totally love the new music system. A few who have stopped playing. But the majority have fewer concerts now and all are having issues trying to play music without being able to hear our arrangements outside of LOTRO. It is possible to create music with this system but it is problematic and no where near as much fun.

Good luck with the new update and please don't forget about us patiently waiting to have our issues resolved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thurallor

I don't think we have enough evidence to be sure this actually happened. It seems unlikely. In fact, I think it's more likely that the performance is marginal on your machine, and other variables (such as the number of musicians playing, people dancing, etc.) accounted for the fact that you sometimes saw the problem and sometimes didn't.

Although since the devs never provided release notes to us, we can't know for sure.

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We've been down this road before, Thuralior. Mar. 12-15. That's your guess of the reported snap-pop issue when I backed up a claim that snap-pop was there; my slow machine or connection. It wasn't the case. I can't stress enough why I reported this. Snap-pop was there Monday from U15.3 release and gone 4 days after release on a Friday hours before concert. No settings change on my end. Now back 11 days after U15.3 release. And once more, you suggest it's my slow machine. How many times are we going to do this? Opinions are fine. You also stated you don't launch multiple accounts, which so far is being reported by 3? other players either multi-boxing or band members.

I give up. Good news is that if we're both consistent, people can judge for themelves what we're saying and judge for themselves.




http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Emere

I agree completely. Many snugly bunny hugs to her for that too. But we still have no idea of any time frame for fixes. We still know nothing more than before.
Please understand where I am coming from on this. Music is really all I do in game. Pretty much all I have done for a very long time in game. What little role play I do is centered around the music community as well. When I skraid or raid, its with my fellow musicians. So for me, its pretty much a broken game now.
It is why I canceled my subscription. It doesn't make any sense to renew it with the hope that someday it will be fixed. Three months of vip here will buy you into the pre-alpha of SotA for petes sake. ((And for $10, I was able to buy a bunny pet!))

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Music system have gotten lot of love and will receive in future when they have more time but as it seems they think next update is more crucial to their future success so they want to focus on that (pushing it out asap and as polished as they can). Nothing wrong on focusing different things in the game, and lets be honest, music system is nowhere as broken as endgame been for last 2 years...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by siipperi

Music system have gotten lot of love and will receive in future when they have more time but as it seems they think next update is more crucial to their future success so they want to focus on that (pushing it out asap and as polished as they can). Nothing wrong on focusing different things in the game, and lets be honest, music system is nowhere as broken as endgame been for last 2 years...

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I have been playing for almost 5 years now. In all of that time the only love we got aside from the support for Weatherstock, was the pibgorn. That thing is more insult than love and it is still broken. It wasn't until recently with all this new music system that we have seen any love or promises of love, for a very very long time. Unless I am wrong, the example before that was when they made the sync music command for us. That happened before I even knew Lotro existed.
Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to diminish end game play. I agree its lacking. But all said and done, its the role play community and music community that has always drawn the short straw. The only reasons I subscribed for a year was one, for the support against being griefed at shows and we rarely got any satisfaction from that, and two, was to give back to a game that I loved because of the music community, and the music we could make.

So, you /bug the lute and say it is at least 20% too loud. You get told it's working as intended (technically it is) and the ticket closed.

I appreciate the U16 effort but is it really a big thing to just lower the volume on the lute. Obviously some of the other fixes may take more time but, you know, you were warned it wasn't ready and yet here we are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by siipperi

Music system have gotten lot of love and will receive in future when they have more time but as it seems they think next update is more crucial to their future success so they want to focus on that (pushing it out asap and as polished as they can). Nothing wrong on focusing different things in the game, and lets be honest, music system is nowhere as broken as endgame been for last 2 years...

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I have to strongly disagree - if we compare these music system things with romantic entanglements it's rather that we had a break up in autumn last year, followed by an apology and a re-union and then the state of the relationship turned to the "we don't talk" level after one partner one-sidedly decided to change the terms of the relationship - there was no love, just stress and that goes on for more than half a year now - a lot of ppl have enough of this and now our "partner" just told us that he/she has other, more important things to do....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey

We've been down this road before, Thuralior. Mar. 12-15. That's your guess of the reported snap-pop issue when I backed up a claim that snap-pop was there; my slow machine or connection. It wasn't the case. I can't stress enough why I reported this. Snap-pop was there Monday from U15.3 release and gone 4 days after release on a Friday hours before concert. No settings change on my end. Now back 11 days after U15.3 release. And once more, you suggest it's my slow machine. How many times are we going to do this? Opinions are fine. You also stated you don't launch multiple accounts, which so far is being reported by 3? other players either multi-boxing or band members.

I give up. Good news is that if we're both consistent, people can judge for themelves what we're saying and judge for themselves.

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I'm sorry. I don't mean to cast doubt upon your reported experience. A situation where the performance is "marginal" (i.e. sometimes working and sometimes not, depending on available CPU resources, etc.) is not good and needs to be addressed. If it's marginal on your machine, it will be marginal on lots of players' machines. The reason I am skeptical that a stealth server update was made and then rolled back is that I don't believe the snap-pop issue has anything to do with the server. It is most likely a client issue. And there was no client update on the date when you reported the problem had gone away.

I am just trying to provide my interpretation (as an experienced software developer in audio products, but not a musician) of the reports from you and others. I only dabble with music in LOTRO and have never created my own .abc files. If there ever were a conflict between you and me on subjective judgements, I would defer to you. But since we're speculating about the root cause of software issues, I feel I have some relevant expertise.

It sure would be interesting to hear from the devs on the subject.

In your Turbinelauncher.exe, Options, do you have "Ask before downloading new update" enabled or off?

(Default is off, meaning updates are downloaded on lauch without prompt)



http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg

So, this is what you're telling us Vvy, "Sorry, but after we bugged your beloved system so much, we're going to go make new content rather than fixing the old content we've broken."

For once in about two years, I had faith in Turbine... It's slowly dying off.