Turbine: please give us A NEW challenge.
Thank you
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Turbine: please give us A NEW challenge.
Thank you
The need to gear up is partially social pressure, and partially plain addiction. Addicted players will keep playing even if the game isn't fun at all anymore. And in best interest for turbine are addicted whales, as they'll keep spending. Players know it's not fun anymore, their addiction doesn't let them break out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorgrum
The "gun" Turbine uses is game design that creates addiction. But once you have that addiction in place, you can use the "barely fun" approach to milk players.. or you can keep the game actually fun, and get your money from selling actual content, in addition to things like cosmetics. It was Turbine's choice to move towards the "barely fun" approach, and in turn sell grind-avoidance, which makes it understandable that people complain and eventually leave (if they can break the addiction).
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Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel
What do you mean by "NEW" challenge?
Something completely different than what has been offered before? What would that be?
So normally I would reply "yes of course I am correct I usually am" but I am not in char for this thread (even though I got it in anyway :cool:).Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnenna
Let me be clear, Turbine has made it a grind fest to encourage you the player to obtain the results through the store. The LI grind was a complete F2P monetization implementation. Why did we come to that? We have to harken back to the beginning, which is going to give you another example of how horrible Turbine is at managing MMO's. They sold life time subscriptions. So in effect you offer a one time fee to play the game forever. The level of business stupidity needed to articulate that business decision is better left for another thread but essentially what they did was take there most loyal fans and remove the need for them to continue to pay for the product. So the people most willing to pay more for the product have the need to do so removed (for the most part, they still had to pay for expansions).
So that model has a short term revenue life. What they did was create legendary items and created the conditions by which they increased every level cap so the player was compelled to improve them (essentially deconstruct and make new ones). Now that in of itself isnt a bad way to go for a company, a lot of people would pay for the ability not to grind. The kicker is they sold LI's as something that will grow with you when nothing could have been further from the truth. Mounted combat, stat tombs, cosmetics, alts, mannequins they invested heavily into this revenue model and lost sight of the raid content, PVP content which could have been packaged and sold (you needed to be VIP to play in the moors as a freep though). They invested in the PVE content, still I have to say its pretty good given the limitations of the actual story they are in.
So LI's at the core were the grind and progression mechanism. They created the conditions by which development resources were devouted to creating grinds to the player to achieve the cap (Cap isnt just the level of the char, its the level and quality of the gear) when they should have kept the focus on content, raids PvP actual in game activity. The result? When was the last time you had to do a conjunction? "Everyone go all blue" why is that? Because the grind mechanics created made DPS off the charts you can run a lot of content now with just 5 DPS blowing #### up. Tank? NAH (do the even generate threat anymore or do they all have forced taunts?) healer? Ya okay you might need one but the healers in this game? The Heals are off the charts, if you have a mini or RK dedicated healer and your dying that healer is likely tabbed out and watching porn.
"Okay Thor, youre going on and on" I am and the point is most of us could see this trend clearly. Most of us have been here for years and the trend was clear. Yet we kept playing, we kept "grinding" and we became pissed at turbine for doing it. Meantime they are getting revenue off the model, so they hear the complaints but get money why change exactly? Not only that players bitched that they had to grind on all there alts, really? So now the turbine model really shines because what you dont want to go to forochel to kill 450 worms for +1 zeal on 5 toons? Of course you dont I mean there are very few people who want to spend there time grinding this out over and over and over and over and over. So they go to the store and the +1 zeal is there.
Tl;dr: Turbine created the conditions by which it needed to monetize the heart of the progression (the LI's) for years the players supported it. Only recently has it become clear players have had enough (see server merges). Players own a lot of the blame here, but its to late now. Unless Turbine is sitting on millions of cash reserves on there balance sheet they need this continued monetization to support future growth. You all made your bed, go lay in it.
Thanks for confirming the rule. You are clearly out of control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calta
I'm sorry but it's you who didn't read properly what she said. She made really good points about the topic -maybe too sophisticated for some people- and received personal attacks in response, in fact, starting with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnenna
You all focused in that raider mataphor she used, ignoring everything else (even her apparent desire to have raids back). Maybe you missed when she said she wants to have characters prepaired to raid (before) and she likes to raid and to lead (later). But no, the attacks continued (as usual).
My comment is in response to some people who think they have carte blanche to troll exactly the way I stated. Of course, even I don't agree with all she said; having some words against the "majority" opinion is a sin in these forums.
-------
Yes many people (including raiders) are all you said; unfortunately that is not what we see here in the forums.
Btw, my opinion concerning this topic (even I said that it is too much from the store point of view). It is not a secret and it was evident:
- it is store driven.
- The grind was dramatically increased with the last "update".
- It's not friendly for people who play several characters (curiously probably the most important factor that keeps this game alive).
- The "you don't need to do it" argument has been refuted very well. The quality of the game has been reduced greatly with these grinds.
Majority opinion? Don't make me laugh. Some of us were arguing the case for less store-driven/pay-to-no-play grind and more progression through real content when you and the rest of the gang were hiding behind your little community manager who allowed you to /report anything that had the words raiding or group in them. The reason why you're finding that more and more people are complaining is that the grind is getting so out of hand and (with U17) the design philosophy so one-dimensional that fewer and fewer players are willing to defend it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laerien
Perhaps she shouldn't have begun with outright ad hominem attacks on vast, generalized swaths of the community, past and present, whom she does not know, and yet presumed to judge on a very personal level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laerien
She then did go on to some vaguely defensible things. Indeed, even contradicting herself at several points. To such an extent that more than one of us wondered (some of us aloud) whether there are multiple people involved in her posts.
Well, when you're done sticking up for people who entered the thread initially with the sole purpose of throwing insults around (and then oddly tried to go substantive from there), maybe you'll deign to join us in providing feedback along those lines.Quote:
Btw, my opinion concerning this topic (even I said that it is too much from the store point of view). It is not a secret and it was evident:
- it is store driven.
- The grind was dramatically increased with the last "update".
- It's not friendly for people who play several characters (curiously probably the most important factor that keeps this game alive).
- The "you don't need to do it" argument has been refuted very well. The quality of the game has been reduced greatly with these grinds.
a) A solo instance that actually presented some difficultyQuote:
Originally Posted by Scirocco
b) A watcher/turtle type (lair) of group instance
c) A new skirmish (instead of a BB) scalable to 1/2/3/6/12 with appropriate difficulty and rewards in all 3 tiers
Just to name a few pve things
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel
Good suggestions.
(a) is something I haven't really seen in any MMORPG. Content intended for solo play that actually presents a hard challenge, and probably would have to be designed for each class. In LOTRO, players who seek this kind of challenge have to take on content intended for multiple players.
And a new skirmish is something that we haven't seen in the game for awhile.
Which are all limited to single player games, I believe. I haven't played a single-player CRPG in 18 years, and have no desire to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Almagnus1
There is nothing in the definition of MMORPG that requires formal grouping or raid structures. There are many other ways to players to interact, directly or indirectly, than those limited means (which in the modern form are just choreographic puzzles, with increasingly complex dance steps/button pushing sequences). There's nothing special about either; they're just another form of player interaction.
MMORPGs are big and broad enough to encompass a multitude of playstyles, and are not limited to those you would prefer. We'll just have to continue to disagree on this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Almagnus1
I doubt that single player CRPGs can feel MMORPGish, unless they are massively multiplayer. That's the missing element, and why I have only played MMORPGs for the past 18 years. My active MMORPG history includes UO, EQ, DAoC, WoW, SWG, SWTOR, and LOTRO. I attempted ESO, but couldn't get past the awkward user interface. It may be that my perspective is different in light of the fact that the first true MMORPG I played (UO) didn't have a formal group mechanism, much less a raid framework. And while EQ had a group structure, it didn't add a raid structure until substantially later, due to the groups-of-groups approach to Vox and Nagafin and others (raiding being emergent gameplay). In fact, the 72-player limit on EQ raids was intended to try to limit this emergent gameplay by restricting the numbers that players would throw at mobs. Even afterwards, though, I went on several 120+ person raids in Planes of Power (I guess you can call them "raids of raids").
So, my MMORPG playstyle includes what I consider a healthy mix of soloing, small grouping, grouping, and multi-grouping. "Classic" group instances and raids are a small part of that.
Needless to say, a game that limited gameplay to classic group instances or raids would not be a true MMORPG, in my opinion. It would not be of any more interest to me than a team-based FPS game. If you enjoy that playstyle to the exclusion of others, that's fine. But please don't try to force the rest of us to be so limited.
I want a game in which all of the above playstyles can be pursued. That's why I play MMORPGs.
There's this word "need" being used a lot. You do not need any of that stuff. If you get some, treat it as a bonus, not an entitlement. The game becomes a lot less fun when you stop grinding and start playing.
And there's this specious, vacuous, mindless, ridiculous diatribe against the word "need" that does nothing to address the actual point. Those expressing their concerns find this myopic, self-serving, willfully obtuse "argument" about 0% compelling. It's semantics masquerading as a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohi
This has been addressed so many freakin' times the only excuse for it continuing to appear is that people obviously don't ever read replies, nor the the thread in which they choose to pop in, only to ignorantly pop off.
And you very obviously started reading Malcolm style - somewhere in the middle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laerien
So it's ok for someone to post all that rubbish about how I am not their equal and kinda mud in comparison to themselves without even having so much as an iota of knowledge of who I actually am or anything about me, but when I explain that my circumstances are indeed similar I am attacking?
Please, don't make me laugh. You dare to accuse people of only reading part of a post - then go on to do exactly that yourself.
The poster started generic attacks with their first post in the thread - general name calling.
They then became very personal on a very individual level at this point.
"Please come back and tell me about multi-tasking when you are raising 3 children as a solo parent while working in a patient care hospital and going to school. When you can sew their new clothes while holding one on your lap and helping the other two with their homework while dinner is cooking I will consider you an equal. Until then, you are just some person on a forum who likes to troll."
Playing what exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohi
Two new mindless dailies that are beyond easy.
Or AFK your way through the new BBs, like the excessively long and laggy Hammer of the Underworld.
is there anything else to do in U17 endgame?
^ This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlosh
And let me also add that even the epic questline for U17 is ridiculously stupid IMO with all that running around up and down MT.
This update is fail.
THe grind is ok but I would go beyond that and introduce back some RNG into loot gear, because everything now has morale and the stats you personally need. Just like it used to be back in the day. It's not fun to play this game anymore.
Yes and as you pointed out its been "addressed so many freakin times" there really isnt anything else to say but pop off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurin
I mean this thread is about someone complaining about a grind in LOTRO. We covered this in 2011, 2012,2013,2014 and here we are again 2015 and 15 pages later.
Your threshold for meaningful discussion was met years ago, at this point if people dont understand the business model and why the grind is here they they are new player or victims of your conclusion. They dont ever read replies nor the thread in which they choose to pop in.
The only new ground covered in this thread is the OP chose to capitalize "NUTS" in the title.
Going to go ahead and reply here, without reading through 19 pages of snark, personal attacks and general troll comments.
I have stopped leveling all my characters but 2, and those 2 will go forward on quest given gear only. I am also quite tired of the endless grind to get the "perfect" essences to participate in even T1 runs. The DPS/Morale race has gotten to a comical level, with tactics and strategy thrown out the door in a mad dash to "kill everything quick" Added to this is the addition of what I consider the laziest game mechanic of all, the insanely high damage/one shot kill. The only way to counter this is to stack high morale and forget doing what you class was designed to do.
My second reason is the tedious, time consuming and mind numbing grind to do anything in this game. Sure, there has always been grind, but the amount of grinding seemed lower and the rewards better. They have even take one of my personal favorites, the faction steed. I am a collector, and even if Enedwaithe (the old version) was enough to make my eyes bleed, I still did it. Because I got something I wanted that I could show off. But show off yet another identical essence, yet another carbon copy piece of gear? No thanks.
I realize some may see the grind worth it for gear. Some may even see the grind for something cosmetic as a horse silly. But this game has always been about something more than just uber gear and massive damage. It is about, well, Middle Earth. And socializing. And events. And, well, just being there. (With apologies to Chauncey Gardner)
Middle Earth loses it's appeal when you can't socialize because your friends left because there was nothing to do and then you were, well, just being there alone and with nothing fun to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Datheor
Saying it's about Middle Earth is downplaying the fact this is a game, a product, and its customers are dissatisfied in a large number of cases. Customers have the right to express their dissatisfaction to the company producing that product before they take their business elsewhere. Which I believe a number of them have done just that, i.e. players disappearing in large numbers resulting in server closures so worlds appear full and robust...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaniemooch
I'm pretty sure this is exactly why this is labeled a Discussion and Feedback forum.
I am dissatisfied with the product at the present time, to the extent I no longer see it worth what I pay for it, so I brought my feedback here so that Turbine could see why I feel that way.
I got called a whiner and a less than equal troll for doing so, but that doesn't really matter to me, as long as Turbine are getting my feedback, people can think what they like.
I've just spent £50 on pre-ordering the next WoW expansion. That's £50 on content, not on store-bought #### just to speed up & alleviate the grind.
Exactly what is the problem here? To be the best in any game you have to accomplish ( read do things ) things in game. Do you want to start playing lotro and on your first day have everything that a person that has been playing for years has. ?Quote:
Originally Posted by DiogoVP
It seems you do; so consider that a rhetorical question. My question to you is. In what way has this changed since update 16, 17. From the start of this game one had to grind virtues if they wished to be all they could be. From the very beginning one had to execute X skill Y times in order to learn the next skill or ability. We have always had to 'grind' (read accomplish things in game) to get skills the difference is now we grind ( read accomplish things in game) to get trait points which we can then use to 'acquire' skills.
Again I ask you what has changed? Again I ask why does it suddenly bother you that in order to have the best of everything. To be the best you can be. That you need 'grind' ( read accomplish things in game) to get them.
I understand you are upset. But perhaps it is because you are tired of the game and need move on. Maybe you are too busy at the moment to have the time to do all the things in game one needs to do to be a tier one player. This is ok. Drop back a notch and be a tier two player and enjoy the game. The content that we are faced with currently is the same content pre MT release. We were all doing this content with our pre MT LI"s and our pre MT gear and our pre MT skill points. So in reality no one needs grind for any of the stuff that came with MT in order to excel in the game.
Get a grip big boy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Almagnus1
I've no doubt that CRPGs are, as you say, very well done with high story quality. But they're missing the MMO part. Even if I were so inclined, I imagine I would finish the CRPG in a month or so, and then leave it behind. A brief diversion, at best. I wouldn't be playing a CRPG 7 or 8 years later (as is the case with EQ and LOTRO).
I think we both are alike in preferring our RPG in an online world shared with lots of other people. We just differ in our preferences for a particular form, nature and/or amount of interaction with other players.
For the love of. . . READ THE THREAD!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandie2
Every single "point" you bring up has been addressed ad nauseum.
Every question you have asked has been answered ad nauseum.
Yet, you read the first post in a 19-page thread and decide that's where you're going to start. :rolleyes:
And yes, through the course of this thread, your contention that nothing substantial has changed in either the quantity or the quality of "grinds" in the game has been demonstrated to be hopelessly naive. If not willfully obtuse.
--H
So we just wanted to jump in here and say that we do appreciate the fact that everyone here is passionate about this topic. That being said, we are always looking into how we can make the game better and hopefully more enjoyable for our players. It is clear that this is an aspect of the game that many of you do not enjoy and is even becoming a deterrent for some. The team is going to be looking into ways that we can improve this while still maintaining the overall goals that we set out for this system.
And while we appreciate your continued feedback, please keep the discussion civil.
Thanks for stopping by, and for taking in the feedback provided. I love LOTRO, and I really wish to keep on loving it for a long time yet. By weighing in and letting us know you are reading, it's already helping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
Thanks for this comment and for taking the feedback. Crossing fingers!Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
Very nice to hear it. There are a few suggestions that I've made on my OP of what I consider reasonable for the grind. Perhaps the team can take a look at it? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
That's one thing I do sorely miss, I'll be honest about that. I only started playing in time to actually get to pre-order one Expac, and that was Helms Deep. RoR launched just previous to me starting the game, and was the new content. It was great to experience that anticipation and wait for launch of HD (even if that expac was not as great as some of the earlier ones). I'd watched my hubby get excited for years previous to that, when he was pre-ordering Moria, RoI, RoR etc. I did still get some sense of excitement when I purchased all those for myself, but the anticipation part of it wasn't quite the same as pre-ordering.Quote:
Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes
I miss expansions.
I'm surprised that Frelorn chimed in on this thread.
But don't kid yourselves, this isn't the first time Turbine has said "The team is going to be looking into..."
Just saying...
I'm a hopeless optimist, so, it works for me at the moment :)Quote:
Originally Posted by bucko39
Hello my old friend. I believe I chimed in on a thread in the past where you had been whining that the game had 'become a grind'. You were complaining that quests "now" were just endless go here go there fetch this, and I asked you exactly what was your complaint. You did not like that post anymore then this one. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurin
In fact I think you have been waiting and dying to pounce on me ever since. But I stick by it. What has changed about quests. Day one in this game I had to run here and there and fetch and carry and I have fetched and carried from level 5 to 95 -- and then 5 more for good measure.
Does the fact of the 'store' change some of this. Yes I think it does. Not just our perception but the reality of it. Turbine does a booming business selling LI upgrades be it star-lits or legacy tier increases. Turbine does a booming business selling essence removal scrolls. Does that make me suspect that the accountants are rubbing their collective hands with glee with all the new jewelry. Every toon in the game that wants to be all he, she can be needs re work their toons to up grade from the two slotted jewelry from the last release to the 3 slotted jewelry of this release. For most this will also entail redoing some armor pieces.
So is it possible the need for some of these things was motivated by the desire for turbine to make a profit and not for the enjoyment and benefit of the players. Yeppers. But that does not negate the fact the OP was complaining about grinds that make one toon better equipped. Stronger, better able to kill, then a toon that has not done them. And that my friend has always been the nature of online games. It is this way by necessity. To keep playing a game we the players need to feel there is something we want in game that is obtainable by playing the game. The thing we all want is to be better than. Better then we were, and better then the other guy.
PS old friend - you are right. I only read the first post. I had avoided opening this up till today because I really did not want to read another post bellyaching about 'the grind' of vitues and the grind of this and that. To me this is the nature of the beast and it has always been this way. But after a post gets legs like this one and goes to 19 pages I felt it was time to read the original post and refocus folks on what the OP said. So often these threads get derailed and become some sill feud.
Link?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandie2
I have noted ("whined" of course in your vernacular) that at this stage of the adventure, we probably shouldn't be washing dishes anymore. Other than that, I think you have me confused with someone else.Quote:
You were complaining that quests "now" were just endless go here go there fetch this, and I asked you exactly what was your complaint. You did not like that post anymore then this one. :-)
Wow. I think that you think that others are thinking about you too much.Quote:
In fact I think you have been waiting and dying to pounce on me ever since.
I honestly have no idea who you are. Nor any recollection of interacting with you before. I'm sure we have interacted at some point since I've (sadly) made almost 4000 posts. But apparently I made a much bigger impression upon you than the reverse.
Not enough. But as I said, I think you have me confused with someone else.Quote:
What has changed about quests.
And what were you doing on day 1. Where were you in-game. And what was going on around you? What had your character experienced? And now compare that state to where we are now. Perhaps you begin to see the only point I've made about current quest content.Quote:
Day one in this game I had to run here and there and fetch and carry and I have fetched and carried from level 5 to 95 -- and then 5 more for good measure.
I know.Quote:
PS old friend - you are right. I only read the first post.
Well, it hadn't been derailed. Well, until you just began talking about quests and quests content in order to carry on some bizarre, long-forgotten argument you seem to think we had (and we may have, I just simply don't recall).Quote:
But after a post gets legs like this one and goes to 19 pages I felt it was time to read the original post and refocus folks on what the OP said. So often these threads get derailed and become some sill feud.
But, as originally stated, all of your questions and "points" have been addressed (hence my skipping the two paragraphs in this latest reply where you pull out all the dismissive cliches and tropes about "grind"). Please do us the courtesy of getting caught up before dragging us all back through it again.
And, while we're on the topic of courtesy, I am asking you politely to knock off the "my friend" and "dear friend" stuff. Everyone sees what you're doing. We've been asked to tone down the hostility and I'm doing so. And please don't insult everyone's intelligence by asserting that you actually mean it.
--H
Thank you for replying to this thread, Frelorn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
But - at least for me - this update was the straw that broke the camel's back.
To sum up my feelings towards this whole grind: I have simply stopped playing and paying at the rate I did before.
The total sum of around €1200 I spent since 2010 until the end of 2013 has dwindled to zero, nada, niente since 2014.
My total game time of around 40 hours per week in 2010 which had dropped to around 15 hours a week pre-U16 sees me clocking 2 hours per week (if at all) after U17.
2015 saw pushed-back dead-lines, rushed half-finished content, failed hardware-upgrades and botched transfer timelines in stunning regularity.
While the U16 imbued LI-system was announced with the official line of reducing the "craft-and-grind aspect of the LI system" and having LIs which "grow with you", in reality it was exactly the opposite. Grind has reached a never before imagined extent, and LIs grow without us/after us.
Why would I spend less time and money on this?
Really?
Does that really need an answer?!?
<sigh> Okay, let's try to sum it up...
Zero worthwhile, bug-riddled end-content with exponentially increasing amounts of grind each update.
Fun-factor and server-performance dropping in free-fall while the bug-ratio and bug-intensity are ever increasing.
The player base was and is being sucked up in a store-driven black hole powered by a money-hungry, quality-despising, small-minded, customer-ignoring tie-and-suit-elite of managers.
Note: I am not accusing the actual devs here, who I suppose would have loved to produce higher quality content. Who are probably suffering under totally ridiculous dead-line setups with a far too small budget and too few programmers, graphics designers, quest authors, etc pp...
It was fun during my first three years (2010 to 2012).
Then the plug was pulled on a brimming-full-to-the-rim pool of good-will towards Turbine.
During the last three years (2013-2015) the pool's walls were chipped at, pick-axed, and finally jackhammered into a sieve by Turbine's/WB shoddy business decisions.
All the while not replacing the plug!
Even with pouring in tanker-loads of water by my rabid fan-status of anything "Lord of the Rings" by JRRT the levels of goodwill were dropping dangerously quickly.
The pool walls easily could take the box-full of lit firecrackers of the gold HD/DA jewelry item grind. Still retaining appreciable levels of good-will.
Even after the skill trees introduction with its concurrent balancing issues (which are still unresolved three years later).
Even with trait points hidden behind the complete quests of the West-Emnet expansion (requiring the then 9 lvl 85-95 alts to go through every last quest of the expansion).
The first stick of dynamite-fishing for money in this dwindling pool of goodwill was the essence grind (universal pots only reasonably available in the store).
Then came the direct hit by the Howitzer shell of the imbued LI system with U16, followed by the bunker-buster bomb of the grind of U17.
Now dust devils are dancing in the drain, a dry desert wind whistling in the cracks of the barely recognizable ruins of this pool.
I am going to take a few more strolls through the content-parched remains of future updates to see how the powers-that-be at WB/TB mess up the rest of the game, see the crumbling sun-bleached skeletons of my once-maxed-out 10 characters be blown over by drifting sands of grind, and letting my once highly active kinship die in its Turbine-induced dehydration sleep.
My decision as of U17: return to the game only to satisfy my rabid "Lord of the Rings" fan-dom curiosity during each update, then leave again.
Maybe have a once-or-twice-a-month look-see what my old buddies from the RT-rounds are still doing, having a chat on their TS.
Plans for money spending on this grind disaster: Phaw! No way!
Plans for actually performing this grind: Hah, never!
For all others who still can and do gain any fun from the current state of the game:
Please, in no way feel attacked by me.
I congratulate you for retaining the spark which I have lost.
I hope that you can retain it - I couldn't.
This is only a personal decision, and a very personal opinion.
I really will miss the friends I made here, but I simply can't force myself to look at the grind disaster this game has become.
Hopefully the good memories will last...
I really hope things will change cause right know the game feels like a chord.
I've lost hope to ever gear-up my alts. While I agree with some grind, i'm only asking for a reasonable/doable one, allowing me to improve more than one char.
Thank you for a well written post, Milogson. You bring up several important issues with the game that Turbine have failed to address.
I canceled my vip some weeks ago. I haven't logged in since then. I've been VIP since 2011 and have spent a lot of time in this game and I have had a lot of fun. Now, Lotro is such a low quality product that I just can't bring myself to pay for it. I'm a fan of middle earth and Tolkien. I would love to continue playing lotro. If Turbine can't keep customers like me, something is very wrong.
My reasons for leaving;
-The grind is just too much.
Especially the things that you must do solo makes me want to stop playing. Lotro is a MMO, I want to have fun with my friends. Also locking trait points behind endless quest lines was a terrible decision. And on top of that the insane grind for morale essence is like some kind of bad joke. The increased use of RNG is even worse.
-Lag
with every update it's getting worse. If Turbine say; it will get better with new servers and hardware , I say; I believe it when I see it. We have waited for years. We have been patient. Also, Turbine blaming their customers for not having good enough computers, (when thousands of these people can play any modern game on max settings) might be one of the most embarrassing things in gaming history.
-Class breaking byggs will never get fixed.
The lore-master is my favourite class. For years now, me and other LM's have sent bugg reports and written posts in the forums. Some byggs have existed since HD beta, during this time we got several new buggs. Non of them has been fixed. I have given up. It is unacceptable. If Turbine had replied to just one of the hundreds of posts in the forums saying -sorry we don't have time to fix it, we are aware of this bug. Then maybe, I would have stayed. (I'm not asking for much here. How about just one (1!) reply in the class forums every second year?!)
-Turbine have failed to listen to feedback in too many situations. To not take advantage of so many dedicated customers and such a great community and not communicating with them is just epic failure.
Good luck Turbine, you'll need it.
I could go on and on, for example; loot tables, messed up trait trees with buggs and serious balance issues, keep releasing unfinished content that we all know will never get fixed, or all the other bugs that will never get fixed. All of it have been brought up so many times....
To me it seams Turbine only cares about $. Nine out of ten changes to the game includes a pointer to the store, EVEN IF YOU ARE VIP!
From now on, you are not getting one cent (or copper) from me.
Wow! I also have several 100's. I decided after doing almost ALL the Holtburg dailies on one guy that I had no intersted in doing that ever again. So I don't. I run around in store bought or mathom hunter armor, complete most of the epic quests, and have a blast...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimnaur
The grind is unbelieveable if you choose to do it.... I find the game is still fun if you don't. Pay to Win, now that's another subject....
Says the guy who bypassed the grind by exploiting the system and then came on the forums to gloat about it. BTW, according to the exploiters I have talked to, the "punishment", if you can even call it that, was well worth it. GG. ^.^Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandie2
Honestly, what would do it for me is to change the cost of Anfalas Scrolls of Empowerment at the various vendors. Currently, a single Anfalas Scroll of Empowerment costs north of 60,000 shards at the relic master and somewhere close to 3,800 marks and 600 medallions from the legendary barter NPC. Meanwhile, an Eorlingas Scroll of Empowerment costs around 28,000 shards at the relic master and somewhere around 600 marks and 70 medallions at the legendary barter NPC. This is an astronomical increase in cost considering the Anfalas scrolls are only 5 levels higher than the Eorlingas scrolls. I would think aa reduction of at least 30-40% in mark/medallion and shard costs would still be rather expensive, but at least it would make the grind more palatable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
Anyone who was caught using exploits should be stripped of all top end gear, even any which was obtained without the exploit. I'm fortunate enough not to know anyone personally in game that did that nonsense, not sure I would have the same look on anyone if I did know of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jagannath
Anyone in here (opposing the original post) that used the exploit, needs to step out and shake the mud off before expecting players to jump into a store to buy what they themselves stole.
I can't wait for someone to drop in, point out the quicker means (DA Training Instances) and then declare all concerns about the grind to be therefore moot. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer55
As before, it's not just about the quantity of the grinding. It's also about the quality of the content that makes up the grinds. People often compare to Virtue grinds. But, the repetitive, day-after-day, to-do list nature of the current grind is what is largely new. As has already been stated numerous times.
I've ground out Virtues on my alts to cap several times. I kitted out several alts in Radiance gear back in the day. There were qualitative differences to those experiences compared to logging in, and just going through a monotonous to-do list of solo activities. And, it can never be said enough, one strongly suspects that it's designed to be onerous.
Perhaps I can't say it any clearer than this. . .
Most people "whining" here would be fully willing to handle any challenge/grind if they had full confidence that the grind is there for the right reasons.
The fundamental problem is that there is a tremendous difference between a grind/challenge put into the game where the designer thought: "I'd really like them to feel like they worked and earned their way to this reward". . . and a grind/challenge put into the game where the designer thought: "I have to make sure this system generates $x of revenue by making this as onerous as possible, thus diverting y people to the Store."
--H
That is awesome Frelorn, thanks to you and the team both for pursuing it and for letting us know it is under consideration! I do admit I decided to shelve my lvl 100 Cappy except as a token earning mule in part because I couldn't face doing it all again after 2 weapons for my hunter and 4 for my RK (Still working on that).Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
I honestly have no problem with some grind...sincerely...it is just this update added so many levels of everything that it did become disheartening.
Lothhil, BW
The most alarming difference between Eorlingas and Anfalas scrolls is you could max a weapon with about 15 Eorlingas scrolls when cap was level 95. Now we need 86 Anfalas scrolls, and by the next update, we will need a lot more than that. Fine for those already working on their weapons, as they are working as they go - really really bad for those that haven't got there yet though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer55
I'm actually quite loath to add a suggestion to alleviate things this evening, because lol, right now, after the last three weeks in game and the last few days in this thread, my suggestion would probably be . . . .
Put an Eyes n Guard in Bree ;)
No player should ever feel it's that bad.
Thank you Frelorn. Now how about the BIGGEST thread in the forum, HOUSING.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
Thank you.
In light of the significant grind involved with ILIs, please ask the Dev Team to take a look at the physical damage for the LM ILI staff. It's fixed, and does not increase at all.
This resulted from an LI adjustment years ago, where the DPS legacy on the LM staff was changed to a tactical damage legacy, and the physical DPS was set to a fixed range midway between the bottom and top ranges for other 2H LI weapons (which continued to have a DPS legacy).
This wasn't a significant problem when we replaced our LIs every expansion, because the staff's physical DPS range would continue to be re-set with the higher level LIs.
Unfortunately, this is no longer the case with ILI staves. The physical DPS of the staff was fine for the first iteration, but as we go through subsequent tier cap increases, the physical DPS of the staff is getting left behind.
The best solution is to do the same thing as was done with 2H weapon passives, which increase gradually with the main legacy. The staff physical damage range should increase gradually, based on the main DPS legacy. This will maintain it in is proper position relative to other 2H weapons.
I was talking this evening actually, to a kin friend of mine, and we were trying to decide why the game seems so empty and quiet of late. We both came to the conclusion that it is probably burn out from the latest grind (seeing as so many people we know are/were complaining about it). We talked over the various ways in which scrolls can be obtained, and DA dailies came up as one of the fastest ways. They are easy to do, but God, we've been running them for 18 months, and they are solo instances. I get the feeling I'm the only person playing the game when I'm in them. I do them, sometimes, but frequency is dropping dramatically. I have no idea why Turbine decided that a grind mechanism, which would be one of the most efficient methods for carrying out one of the longest living in game grinds - should be closed solo. If level cap is not going to see another rise, are we expected to still be running DA dailies a year or more from now I wonder? I ran Hytbold for 44 days, on 5 alts, and loved it, because there was something to gain at the end of it. I'm not talking just gear here, because I could get all the gear I needed after running it on one alt. I'm talking about satisfaction at seeing the city rebuilt in all it's glory and the sense of achievement that came with it. With DA dailies, I'm sick of the sight of them, plus they are tied to really poor RNG. I traded in 24 boxes last week and got a big fat zero of what I was after. Where Turbine want people to willingly participate in grinds for 18 months or more, it would probably be a good idea not to base the rewards from that grind on luck (especially for those that have bad luck).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurin
What was the punishment?Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jagannath
Minimal. On this one the Jagannath AKA the ### clown, is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by katia0203
It's part and parcel of the shift in game focus towards casual/solo vs, well. . . multiplayer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnenna
Hytbold was the culmination of that switch in emphasis. For years, the time-pressed, non-social, or merely just shy demanded that they should be able to get the absolute best gear in the game without doing what the game's design called upon them to do (group up). They demanded that the game instead conform to what they preferred to do (which is play the game solo on their terms). With Hytbold, they got what they demanded. But for design reasons too complicated to go into here, Turbine couldn't provide a solo experience commensurate in difficulty to a raid (and thus a reasonable source of endgame quality loot according to the old tried and true standard). So, instead, we got the daily batch of repeatable quests for day, after day, after day. Coordination, communication, learning together, persistence in the face of defeat, and so many other things were replaced with quest cooldowns, rep grinds, and token grinds while doing the same few short quests over, and over, and over, and over.
It all begins with Hytbold. And Hytbold was a result of the solo/casual folks finally getting their way. And now neither the solo/casual (with a few exceptions) nor the raider/grouper are happy.
And I write all of this as someone who had to stop raiding right after Moria (the first of my kids arrived). Even though I was no longer a raider, I recognized the role they played in the game. And indeed, recognized that they provided a sense of something bigger and greater out there, where some were facing the toughest challenges and earning the greatest rewards, and that was a valuable thing to a game, even for those in the game who would never set foot in a raid.
Thanks for taking the time to reply and acknowledge the issue being addressed in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
That said, I have absolutely no doubt that the issue will be looked into from a financial standpoint, not a content standpoint. If data shows that revenue increased as a result of increased scroll purchases from the store, the grind is likely to increase rather than decrease. Speaking your mind (civilly) on these forums is one way to be heard. I have done so myself. Speaking with your wallet is the most effective way of ensuring your opinion is heard by those making the decisions that will affect the future of the game. How you choose to do this is best determined on an individual basis. Even then, understand it may not matter. The system they have in place is similar to mobile apps. High spenders basically find the game for the majority of players. If X number of players quit due to the grind, but Y number of players increase their spending above what X players previously contributed financially, then the scroll grind will have been considered a success.
I believe something else that needs to be looked into is whether the overall goals from Turbine/WB are actually counter to the overall goals of the players. If the only goal is to steer people towards the store you are right on track, however that is a track of diminishing returns. The fewer people that are playing, the more each person needs to pay to achieve the finance goal. If the goal is towards making replayable, enjoyable content that people are willing to pay for because it is quality you need to look in a different direction. It has been downhill ever since trait trees, HD beta, and the utter disregard of feedback from that point on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
They may be the quickest, though I'm not so sure about that. I think a good time is around 8 min. But with the poor drop of silver tokens I would often have to run 4 or 5 times to get 30. With a little bad luck, other methods might be better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnenna
In any event, I did the DA hundreds of times and I will never ever run it again for any reason. I do the Gondor BB and anything else that anyone posts for for additional marks. Sadly I see less and less calls for anything the past week or so - even pel. It seems people are either done or have given up.
Again not to target you specifically but you end with people are giving up because of the grind.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElanorFb
Im not seeing any evidence of the product changing that dramatically. I mean its been a grind for a while now, those with the expectation that it shouldnt be, are they not responsible for their choice to play LOTRO under these conditions?
These threads have been popping up for literally years, this cant be a news flash for even a minimally educated new player let alone some of the veterans here with join dates in some cases in excess of 5 years. Its mostly the players fault for consuming this product offering way to long. I mean, what is Turbine supposed to think when people keep playing the game, complain, they dont change but then keep playing and complain? The logical answer is turbine has concluded the development model in place is enough to keep people playing. If we go back 20 pages the OP is complaining almost exclusively about U16-U17 which is fine but most of you should know the score by now.
This is part of the F2P business model they have had in place since going F2P. Increased grinds and redundant quests and progression mechanics on gear that encourage the store purchase.
This cant be news to some of you, knock off the feigned anguish its not believable. You want to affect change youre going to have to organize your collective consumption. Literally thats it, thats your only avenue to change here because how else is Turbine going to make money (they have to make money)? You should all be engaging your player council reps and sending them feedback on what you are willing to pay for, and what content you want from that payment. Then you have to put your money where your mouth is if you dont get it, and walk. Yep, thats what its going to take, many of us already have, and they still havent changed. Im not saying its a sure thing, I mean its turbine they have screwed the pooch on 3 pretty impressive IP's
Just dont be silly with the demand and you might be surprised.
Going to be nitpicky here and tell you right up front.. Players council members aren't anyones representatives but themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorgrum
They don't speak for the majority, they don't act for the majority and they don't take guidance from other players. They aren't there for you to gripe at, complain to, make suggestions to or demand change from.
They are a focus group, they represent themselves and the playstyles they choose only.
Exactly what I think. I would just add that on top of the things that I already posted on my OP for suggestions of new prices, there is also the prices on the Store and mithril coins that need to be reviewed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer55
Quote:
Originally Posted by ainor
This quote here pretty much sums up my feelings...
This is my first forum post ever... and until now, I didn´t feel the need to post anything. Now I just couldn't hold it in anymore.
So while paying for VIP status continuously almost seven years, growing alts, enjoying instances, skirmishes, and few occasional raids with my friends.
Seeing and meeting some very helpful and kind folks in Laurelin server, I´ve noticed this steep down slide Lotro has taken... well, all my thoughts are listed in quote above.
I feel I´m on the very edge of quitting my VIP and have been looking some alternatives for this game. Game which was my first mmorpg, still is...
Just wanted to add my ten cents to this, like it would matter anything...
For silver tokens, most people ran the quests up there in the mountainside above DA. The one where you kill the cave claws and the miners (etc.). Can't recall the name. Anyways, when you were short on Silver but had the 10 Gold tokens, that's the quickest silver run.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElanorFb
Which, of course, just makes things more tedious. Better to head to the Store, amiright? :rolleyes:
As for putting our money where our mouth is (other post). . . as a lifer (x2), I've been doing that for two years while sharing my opinion here regarding why I've stopped spending any money whatsoever on the game. I used to spend a lot on this game even as a lifer. Between the collector's edition for each expansion (x2) and such. . . and into the F2P era where I bought a few batches of Turbine Points. Until I realized exactly what message that was sending and the perverse incentives baked into the business model. At that point, I stopped.
For the years that I have been playing lotro, I have encountered an army of forum posters who apologize on behalf of Turbine, and simply take the opposite of what you say and say that lol. This forum has never made sense to me as it in no way represents any server...Quote:
Originally Posted by ainor
For me lotro's main problem has always been that we don't know server populations. This meant that I ground on Withyindle a guard, bought all stat tomes, horse tomes, virtues, got defender of erebor, then saw my server die. I moved an lm to Snowbourne and now that server is dead along with my mini and captain. As an American I couldn't even transfer to a NA server but Withywindle was "recommended" on my client when I started. After just dealing with the fact that I was tricked, I ground again a fully geared RK on Brandywine and now Brandy's population has dipped. There is no website that can show population, as Frelorn mentioned. They are all shams. My kin raids with alts that aren't capable of raiding because there aren't enough people and we want to run with tanks and healers etc.
My steam friends will play every single game with me that we can find...except this game, because of the grind. Idk maybe LOTRO caters to the people who want sales on relic packs and enjoy killing 6 wolves and clearing away petrified goat droppings. I play a game to experience a life I can't in reality, not to do menial tasks just for an end game combat mode that consists of clicking buttons. The story has only gotten better in my opinion...but the combat and raiding are 10% of this game now and the other 90% involves busy work that isn't even relevant one level later.
With this in mind, I recommend that some things, like the Ring of Barahir, erebor jewelry or other quest items grow with an individual, like the xp cloak from Rohan pre-order.
I would also urge the dev team to look at the shadow of angmar areas and allow the quests to be completed out of order (like in Witcher 3, the dialogue is independent but some quests can progress) and for on level experience.
At the end of the day, if a person has a level 100, they should be allowed to purchase a lvl 100 GOV. You would get many purchases on that item, and players to use raids and pvp zones. It also ensures the people leveling up enjoy quiet in their zones.
No one levels up for a big battle. No one. There's a reason no one runs Seige of Gondamon. Survival instances are a must. For example, all the mobs from Ruined City spawn inside Minas Tirith, and you and a raid of 24 need to survive as long as you can, until Theoden arrives. Or a boss breaks through a minas tirith gate and your only job is to dps it (lvl 100 filikul). Having a 24 man raid to stop Mumaks would be fun.
Three man instances are nice when you are on a low pop server and want to run something with friends, but tanks are meant to be rarer than dps and healers likewise. These three man instances are causing people to need to alt, and ultimately bring ungeared toons into challenge modes where a geared toon is required. Make instances and raids where everyone in a kin can come on their main plz :)
edit: lol I guess this wasn't even a reply to your comment at all lol just a 'yeah what they said'
A belated thank you for stopping by. A sincere hope that 'looking into' generates a decision that is communicated here, and an action that ameliorates the grind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
Thanks also for the continued opportunity to provide feedback of all types from all types of players. The thread is still open. This receptiveness is appreciated.
Some positive feedback first:
As of now, the equivalent to DA essence armour or better, is available for barter from MT,.
The MT dailies show the devs listened a litlle, because they are a soloable version of Tarlags Crown. You can see others playing, unlike in the majority of DA dailies. They do not make one feel as if one is playing alone. Most people (soloers and otherwise) seem to enjoy the sense of activity and community. this generates.
The MT crafted set s of armour and jewellery show they also listened about crafted equivalents of solo instance/solo dailiy or BB drops.
The drop rate of morgul crests has increased in RC and SL and DoS. Not enough in some people's opinion, but an improvement nonetheless.
The drop rate of starlit crystals seems to have increased in skirmishes of all sizes.... and that of marks/meds some other instance content.
Thorog is getting the Sammy treatment t the moment. But, a least the instance mechanics matter more in Helegrod-dragon wing than in Sambrog.. Those wishing for a greater challenge can play it with fewer numbers in which case, the mechanics matter more. The completion time can be better when played well by players in their class roles, than achieved by a poorly played high dps group... ie this instance isn'rt simply a matter of 'moah dps' to get more marks per minute. This change directly reflects years of comments about "Sammy farms" lack of difficulty/pure dps and gear focus and sambrog instance' ineffectiveness as a group role training tool. I think this deserves acknowledging.
I would like to reiterate:
much of the 'burn out' referred to is due to the quality and nature of the grind-not simply the quantity.
Some key points made in this thread that illustrate this follow. I have left out the philosophical points on all sides, made about 'need' and 'option' and 'choice'.
The DA dailies are 18 months old and solo only. They were 'necessary' to get decent amour for a very long time. People got bored.
Players who did the DA dailies prior to the increeased turn in and have got very tired of them. Turbine listened about the turn in rate of daily quests.eventually, but many players were already getting tired of that content by then.
Particularly for those wish to play with a partner/friends, skirms/meds are one main source of scrolls that an be earned togather.
Skirm marks/meds are the main trade-able currency for people who do not like BBs and are tired of DA dailies.
Marks/meds remain a useful currency throughout the game and are account shareable.
So 'farming' Fornost or Helegrod Dragon, doing repeated skraids or farming Pelargir or whatever BB gives best marks/med becomes the simplest option to get scrolls. While these options can be fun for the first few dozen times, at some point people realize they are playing the old content on automatic pilot ie they are 'sleep-farming' 'playing semi afk' (whether solo.duo/3 man or skraid) At which point people look at whether the reward is worth the time. Boredom sets in.
The price in skirm marks of scrolls of empowerment and removal scrolls is very high compered to the previous 5 level below equivalents.
The number required to improve the level to get the 'best weapon/class item" is considerably higher than its equivalent 5 levels below. As is the related cost.
There is no in game driver (new raid, new instance, or new solo challenge) that required the best weapon to make a player justify spending their time
The new BBs do not require best class weapons/items or armour nor do they stress class roles.
The feeling that a challenge/goal beyond simple gear improvement is missing at the moment has become common. Hence frustration with effort for no outcome. Many people want that outcome to be 'needing' to use the best available in something in the game. For some, this also means 'needing' to be able to use their class skills in a group role effectively/optimally.
Some suggestions already made in the thread- I have probably left a lot out and over simplified some. I do not see these as mutually exclusive or as definitive.
Reduce the number of all LI accessories/improvements per level of imbuement per item that are required to 'max it'.
Introduce new ways of achieving those LI accessories or the currency required to get them.
Progressive levels of difficulty and consequently, correlated rewards in all content (old and new) needs reviewing.
Allow bartering up of old currencies-so lower level landscape currency can be traded for higher level currency. Or consolidate currencies from 85 upwards.
Try to avoid limited repetitive tasks to get sought after rewards in future : ie progressive rewards linked to crafting (rep recipes), quests/landscape ( tokens from dailies) BBs (merit) , Instances skirms(skirmish marks, tokens and crests) should be integrated into each expansion's release from the release date.
The more options the better, as far as repeatable content is concerned. Let players decide on how to get to their desired goal.
New content that requires best in slot, for all combat playstyles, would be appreciated.
If I undersdtand the new li system right it is not meant to be finished..
And you don't need a full maxed li for anything in the game.. want to have, sure.. need to have, no
I kinda like that system.. even so I had to realize the 'you are not sopposed to max that thing ever" first.
I think maybe the point you describe is finally being reached. I too have seen the grind arguments on the forums, and I've not been around as long as most, and I've seen absolutely no changes apart from grind getting slowly worse with each update. Nothing major enough to be a significant enough slap in the teeth though IMO. Often saw some dissent in game after each update, but it never lasted that long, and within a week things were usually back to normal with players just going along with the grind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorgrum
That "has" changed since U17 though IMO. That brought with it a new kind of level of grind, and it's been noticed by a lot of players. It is still bringing in grumbles and groans out on the forum and more importantly in the game itself almost a month after the fact. People aren't forgetting, or mellowing up to it like usual. I see it every day among friends that play (who aren't logging in nearly as often as usual) and also in World chat. I think the most noticeable part of what's happening is the Store promotions. We get LI sales every other week in the store since U17. Some may see that as Turbine being generous at a time when the grind for those items is high. Most see it exactly how it is though a driver toward the store. Maybe Turbine are selling these items in massive numbers and thought, "lets just be generous and place them on sale every fortnight", but I'm betting it's more likely that they are not selling as much as they hoped they would, and are driving promotions on them to try and pick that up a little.
I think is has got to (or at the very least is getting close to) that point which you are describing for a lot of players.
I feel a bit better now that Frelorn has weighed in, however, keeping in mind what Bucko has rightly reminded us of, I will wrap my optimism in a bit of padding when it comes to renewing my sub in February. I will change to monthly sub, and await the update in Spring and judge from there whether the product is still worth an annual sub or not to me, or indeed any sub at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lialix
Well, that's kinda weird considering my main has maxed hers. They are of course meant to roll along a horizontal, and most people have absolutely no issue with that whatsoever, and they will indeed finish them (as far as any update will allow). The argument that people don't need a maxed Li is counter-productive. Nobody needs the best essence armour or better T2 loot either, and the bottom line here is (and what Turbine should be mindful of), that nobody actually "needs" to play the game. It's "all" about "want", not need, all of it. Everything can be done in quest reward gear, but if everyone takes on the "we don't need, so we shouldn't get" approach, then it all becomes completely meaningless, even playing the game itself.
Lotro? Grind?
I have just spent a week in Albion Online Closed Beta....let me tell you about grind...
I have been playing this game, on and off, since shortly after launch. In the late spring, on my way back to a different MMO, I was once again pulled into LOTRO. A friend told me about the server merges, so I decided to deal with those issues and I stuck around for a while. I found a new server, began levelling a character there, and it was good... However, a few short months after that, despite having met a lot of great people on the new server, I realised I was done:
*Everything related to character progression is a grind
*LIs.. plenty has already been said on the subject
*The levelling quests have become completely unimaginative. They all basically amount to "Kill ten rats," over and over and OVER again. If they aren't of the afore-mentioned formula they involve "playing farmer," and those are no less monotonous; if I wanted to play SIMs, I would be doing so.
*Even the festivals are an exercise in tedium. In fact, they are even more annoying than the "kill ten rats" variety
*Most landscape content has become ludicrously easy and presents no challenge whatsoever
*Trait Trees... ugh
*The Store has become grotesquely and blatantly Pay-to-Win
*Classes are increasingly unbalanced
*Big Battles... I won't even get started
Thus, a couple of months ago I hung up my LOTRO hat, likely for the final time. Although there have been some general quality of life improvements (multiple mail attachments.... It took HOW LONG?), overall the game has been steadily declining for a very long while. I have, however, been keeping an eye on things, and I paid quite a lot of attention to the recent release of Minas Tirith. All I saw was more grind, more Pay-to-Win, further class imbalance, and more Big Battles.
Just.. no. Enough is enough. The point of gaming is to have fun, very little about LOTRO is enjoyable anymore, which is a shame. There are far more interesting games available (both MMOs and single player), a score of books to still explore, other hobbies to pursue, activities outside... I have had some good times, met some amazing people, and I've had a lot of fun over the years; I have no regrets.
I'll still log in briefly from time-to-time, but for all intents and purposes my time in LOTRO has concluded.
/Adieu to what was once a wonderful game
I am agree with you lotro has been really evolving pay to win game noone can say opposite.After this thread I feel more pessimistic about game and left when I look behind I feel better with more free times when I play the game it tires me instead of having fun.I do not have any regrets about leaving which I ve did before after ror gonna may gonna check mordor times in future.On the other hand I love the gms in game best ever I have seen...Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtemisNoir
Let me tell the groaning loud minority something.
Anyone who absolutely needs to cap every legacy on his LI has too much time on their hands.
You get starlits now easy enough from the new BBs, and if you get a FA you get automatically somewhere between 30 and 35 levels on your legacies unlocked which is more then enough for anything the game can throw at you, if you have to have even that vitality or might legacy maxxed for a whooping 20 extra might or need to get 10 levels on a single skill legacy to get a total of 3% more damage on that single skill then more power to you , but don't expect me to have any pity for you for needing to grind a lot to get there.
I do have 4 level 100s, of which one is a minnie with 4 LIs, and a champ with 4 LIs.
prior to minas tirith release i had about a total of 6 starlits used spread across all my toons. i just never had good luck on getting them dropped and unless for an dps class/heal class never bothered to add even one starlit.
I have , just running most days the new MT EBs on 2-4 of my level 100s maxxed all their starlits by now, and saved up 10000 merits for future use. I have barely ever spent a single mark on emp scrolls nor will I likely ever buy many EMP Scroll for merits. its just not necessary, and i prefer to keep those 10000 merits for my next level 100.
I have upgraded the better legacies on all my characters weapons to between 35 and 40, and have sold on the ah abouyt 250 emp scrolls, making about 15000 gold (thanks to all the people that NEED it all maxxed)
end of line : it really is absolutely no problem to get your LIs to a decent level. if you need to have the absolute best possible for an extra 3% damage or an extra 100hp then be prepared to grind for it, while people with a good measure of what is really needed will continue to sell people like you emp scrolls at 50 to 70g each, or the new stat tomes at 3-400g each, and smile doing it.
it really comes down to if you want the best be prepared to spend a good bunch of time grinding, if you are a min/maxer you do it to yourself so stop whinig like a baby at the rest of the world that bad turbine did make you grind if you WANT the best thenbe fing prepared to pay for it with your time, or if you choose to with tp. grind has always been a part of the game if you wanted the best gear. starting from the old critted one shot beryl jewelry at level 50 going to the horse lord one shot recipies , etc etc.
OH NO! I am so disappointed....that was where I had planned to sail to. It had looked so flexible with regard to play and class style choicess and quite interesting plot wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maegren
Well perhaps it would help if you gave us some idea what goals were set out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
Because even from my perspective (Casual player, who doesn't care about everything being "best in slot") it seems to me that the goal was purely to incentivise people to "pay to win".
In fact I think it would nigh on impossible to create a system more inclined to force players to "pay to win" than the current state of play.
Which is, in my experience, almost always the opposite of what actually happens when players start to realise what is going on.
All The Best
I know my reply to this won't be popular but why does someone absolutely have to have everything? Do you expect to have everything in real life too? Do you live in the best house in the best neighborhood on Earth? Do you have the most expensive clothes? The best car and all the latest and supposedly 'greatest' toys?
Why is it a must to have everything maxed out? Who is deciding this--- you or your perceived 'friends' in this game? What would happen if you didn't have top line everything? Would your friends no longer include you? Would the dump you based on what virtual items your virtual self possessed? If they did that would you really consider them friends?
I could go on and on with these questions but the bottom line is only you decide what you must have and what is too much. No one is twisting your arm to do otherwise. No one is making you grind to do anything. LOTRO is an escape from the real world. If it isn't enjoyable to you then basically you have three choices: 1) continue to play and be miserable, 2) depend on someone else (whether turbine or your circle of friends) to MAKE you feel better by adapting the game for your own individual desires of 'rightness'. 3) decide that you personally are responsible for your own happiness and satisfaction and realize that you don't have to be Joe Elf with all the latest of Sauron's Bling to be happy.
I'm sorry if I have offended anyone but the truth is this is a GREAT game and you personally have to make choices about what you get enjoyment out of doing. Don't depend on it from others, take that responsibility within yourself. For the record I have leveled every class at least once to level 100 and none of my toons are fully maxed out, although my 'main' is more than others. I don't expect to have it all. I just want to enjoy what time I do get when I escape to Middle-Earth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Egilric
I've never gotten the phrase 'pay to win' when in regard to LOTRO...exactly what can you lose at? Turbine is a business that is trying to make a profit. I don't knock them for that. Some people have more financial resources than I do. Why should I begrudge them because they can afford to spend more money on the game to get more shiny stuff than I do? I don't mind that Turbine gives them that opportunity, especially since I HOPE that Turbine puts some of that money funneled back into the game. I have not once felt that I was impacted negatively by what some other player bought in the store. Are you saying that you are in some way jealous of what other players can get that you can't (or choose not to) get from the store?
Look I'm NOT trying to cause an argument with what I am saying. I am only saying what I am saying in order to get you to think about what I am asking and to ponder if 'pay to win' really impacts your game play in a negative way.
A very well thought out post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milogson
I share an awful lot of your concerns. At one point I was regularly playing 40+ hours a week - literally all my spare time was spent in LOTRO.
After the introduction of Big Battles (worst ever addition to the game IMO) I was at the point you are now - I quit, didn't log in for maybe 6 months, and then only to pay upkeep on my house in the hope (even at the time I thought it a vain hope) that Turbine / WB would see the error of their ways and start addressing some of the long term issues of the game.
I played SWTOR, WOW, RIFT, STO, Neverwinter and Wildstar. Among all those game the only thing that kept my attention as much as LOTRO did was the Foundry in Neverwinter (for one published adventure I have I had over 250 hrs build time), and for a while it was enough to keep my mind from wandering back to Middle Earth - a place that has been a home for me ever since I first saw Ralph Bakshi's animated LOTR on betamax video one Xmas at my uncle's house when I was 9 or 10 years old.
Just 2 weeks ago I resubbed to LOTRO for 3 months. Not because I think any of the ongoing problems have been resolved, and certainly not because I have changed my mind about Big Battles (I still think they are little better than a 3rd rate, badly done, browser based, resource management game) but because I miss Middle Earth, and I miss the people I have travelled Middle Earth with for the best part of 7 years.
But I return to a Kin that once regularly had 30+ Members online of an evening and now has maybe, on a good night, 7 or 8. I now play, maybe, two hours a day.
Turbine / WB ned to realise that almost all of the major introductions of the last 2-3 years have lost them more players than they have gained - if it were any other way server mergers would not be needed; and having realised that they need to stop repeating the same old mistakes.
All The Best
Was going to post a long reply with lots of detailed critics and suggestions... but simple it don't matter.
LOTRO needs a lot more of time and creativity invested in it to go back to the "great game place" it deserved to live up to Tolkien works.
Yeah, the grind is absurd and out of purpose because there is simply no content that needs maxed chars. But I don't care anymore, just playing to level out the alts and enjoy a bit of the Middle Earth.
LOTRO used to be a great game with nice Raids (the Rift is still remembered by those who are long gone), great class play, nice quests content and great instances for group play.
Now LOTRO only merit is be played on Middle-Earth.
do you not dare to say the grind is optional! do not say it is players who choose what to grind and what not and at what speed! Or you'll get a bunch of angry wargs jumping at youQuote:
Originally Posted by Southy2010
^^This, +10Quote:
Originally Posted by Erusen
I understand all that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Southy2010
I could easily afford to spend whatever $ was needed to get all the shiny stuff I could want - but I won't, out of principle.
I have no problem with Turbine adding "short cuts" to the store for those who want them; I object most strongly to them also increasing the grind exponentially to try and force everyone else to buy them.
Its lazy and cheap game design.
No need for enjoyably repeatable content if people are forced to buy the "shiny" anyway.
Just throw in any old rubbish quests, about fetching plates, picking up poo, and carrying barrels, no need for interesting, well thought out, properly scripted and mechanically sound encounters anymore - we can add Big Battles (thirst rate, badly done, browser based, resource management game) and call it "New Content".
The "Pay To Win" ethos that has, seemingly, taken over at Turbine has all but destroyed any hope of real, well done, interesting content.
In fact real, well done, interesting content is the very last thing Turbine wants to produce now - because if the "content" interests us the Store won't.
All The Best
A question to all the people who say that its is not needed to max out your LI's can i ask what do you do in this game if you're not grinding instances/dailies in order to get scrolls?
For me LOTRO was all about gearing up a character as much as i can for raids/pvp etc etc and then once i had finished that character i would start a new character and level it and start it over again. So i'm just wondering what people are doing in this game if they aren't running these instances/dailies because you don't need to have a maxed LI. Only thing i can think that they are doing is deeding.
I'm not being mean or anything here (just in case some people take offence because i know how easily offended some people can get on the internet) just trying to understand what else there is to do if you aren't grinding to max out your LI's?
I'm attempting to experience the game world content (such as it is) - maxing out my LI is just something that "happens" as I do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG93
All The Best
pvp and raids are not the only playstyle there is. roleplayers couldn't care less about all this stuff (majority of them I'd say) because they make their own content through stories, plots etc., others love playing music, others just want to enjoy the landscape, and so on. What else is there to do if not grinding LI? many players will answer the options above. Grinding forever and ever is not the ultimate end game for everyoneQuote:
Originally Posted by AMDG93
Hytbold had just got here when I began playing. To me, it was just what the game was, having no experience of what the game was previously. I did enjoy it, and at the time, I found it quite challenging, as I was very new, and just starting to learn the game, let alone skills, class etc. Needless to say, it felt a lot easier on subsequent alts. It was around the time that RoR had been here for 7 months that I got my first taste of end game grouping. People were running all sorts of different instances, searching for gold items, and also the Erebor cluster for the ring enhancements and the FA deed. It's what got me hooked, and kept me hooked. It was then that I got that initial taste for the harder runs, like BG, all the Mirkwood cluster and also LT, SotGG etc. At that point I had big plans to get everything done. But those runs became very easy with HD for a while, and with new trait trees making players even more powerful in many cases they became farming runs, which don't interest me all that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurin
I understand the need for solo routes to nice rewards. Solo players need something to work towards too, or else they run out of content very very quickly. Most can get a new update's worth of quest lines done in a day. So in that respect, the introduction of DA dailies was a good idea. What baffles me, is why Turbine did a complete switch from grouping content to solo content for end game gear. They should have done both. A little of both is better than a whole lot of one or the other IMO. There is no reason why they could not have included armour sets into t1/t2/t2c runs for people to work towards. Sure they brought those with Osgliath cluster, but I personally think making people that like grouping up wait 6 months for content they enjoy was way too long. If time was an issue, they could have easily put the DA gold tokens into instance chests for those players.
Alas, they didn't. But people kept on with the solo grind regardless (soloists did it, raiders did it, everyone did it, because that is all there was to do), and I think that is where Thorgrum's post becomes very relevant - it sent Turbine the wrong message, which of course now, seems to be back-firing a bit on everyone, including Turbine because some proportion of the player base will always be fickle and when the grass is greener somewhere else - they move on.
What will you do when you have experienced it all, as many people already have?Quote:
Originally Posted by Egilric
Do as I have always done - run an Alt or two through it until I can put up with it no more, then take a break from LOTRO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnenna
All The Best
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by elvenes
I try to at least dodge the wargs (although of course that doesn't always work out)!
the poster asked how other players spend their time if they do not participate in the grind. I listed a few possible options, nothing more nothing less. I do not assume, you do :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Almagnus1
my last year-game experience
I have got 10 chars, 5 of them are lvl 100 and one of them is well geared. It's the only one I can use to do T2 raids/instances cause the others get onshotted and usually, when raid leader inspects me, he doesn't want me in raid cause I have not many morale essences on my gear. My kin and I, usually do some runs during the week, we tried to do T2 but we're not supergeared with essences, imbued and maxed LIs and whatever...some of us don't have time to do the grind (we have a life too, LOL) but we still like to do runs. We get bored to do the same runs T1 over and over with no rewards except for gold and useless gear. When we want to do some raids, we usually do them around lvl 60/75, just to have fun.
The point is:
-you HAVE TO grind to run T2s
-grind takes a lot of time, gold, marks/meds, mithril coins, token and whatever
A game should be fun to play, not boring. I don't want to fall asleep while I run some BBs, while I try to level up other chars or wile I do the same runs over and over.
Yes, I miss the old times: "wow I reached the cap, now I can finally do runs and get awesome gear!". Now it's like:"gosh, I reached lvl cap...now I have to grind, run BBs over and over to get merit, do RTs to get crests, DA quests to get tokens...for what?"
And yet, the RPers and the like see no problem telling those who actually played the game part of the game that they really shouldn't be so upset. Instead, we should just play like them. And they don't seem to recognize that in the same way they have no interest in playing the game "our" way, we have no interest in playing the game their way.Quote:
Originally Posted by elvenes
And LotRO is, after all, a game. Not just a stage for producing RP plays. Or just a story. There were/are game systems largely based on pre-existing models (WoW, etc.) where the story and RPing is much less prevalent. Perhaps the intellectual property of The Lord of the Rings itself makes this community more prone to the (to my mind, dismissive) exhortations to just "enjoy the story." Hardly anybody plays those other MMOs for the story (perhaps Star Wars being the exception). Or, to put it another way, it's understood that most of us originally came here because it was Middle-earth. But if all we wanted was "story" we'd be reading books. Or. . . RPing. LotRo is a game and more than just a story.
This whole "You don't have to do it. You don't need it" canard we see dropped on these discussions at regular intervals is like. . . well, indulge this analogy if you would. . .
Once upon a time, the Valar (gods) created mountains. At the top of the mountains were riches and rewards beyond the wildest dreams of the people below. The people prayed to the Valar once per month and the Valar continued to let the people live in their world among those mountains. And some people devoted themselves to climbing every mountain peak, no matter how arduous, and developed the skills to defeat every obstacle along the way. The Valar received their monthly prayers and tithes, and the people who were willing to endure the arduous climbs got their riches and rewards.
But then, the Valar decreed a new covenant. For those who did not want to endure the arduous ascent up the mountains, they would provide the very same riches and rewards in exchange for more prayers and larger tithes. At first, this seemed good to all. The riches-topped mountains remained in place, unchanged, for those who still wished to climb them and experience the thrill of accomplishment. And many continued to climb those mountains while some began merely to send extra tithes to the Valar and lived comfortably and at ease.
And then, the inevitable happened. . . the Valar --perhaps at the direction of Eru-- were told that they needed to generate evermore prayers and tithes from the people. And the Valar looked upon the people still climbing the mountains and not sending any tithes unto them, and they were not pleased. So the Valar raised up the mountains, and made them steeper. And yet still many continued to scale them, achieving their rewards and enjoying the satisfaction of conquering all obstacles set before them by the Valar as they always have.
But the Valar were no longer pleased nor proud that some of their people persisted in conquering the arduous tasks set before them. They had grown utterly dependent upon the additional prayers and tithes that many were now sending to them. So, they raised the mountains up even higher. And yet the most hardy of their people still persisted. And yet still the Valar needed more tithes. So the Valar made the mountain walls utterly sheer, and set alight the peaks, and perilous lightning was made to flash among the clouds surrounding them. And lo', at the last, nearly all adventurers finally despaired of ever reaching the summits again.
And as the hardy adventurers despaired and prepared to leave the land, making the long journey towards the havens and the ships upon which they would sail away, all along the way they were asked by those emerging from taverns and their comfortable, warm homes: "Why do you leave? You don't need to climb the mountains!"
--H
Me personally, I would usually be grinding out my Li's, but at the moment, the burn out has got to me, so I spend 50% of my usual LOTRO rec time reading, about 20% watching TV, about 10% walking and about 20% playing LOTRO. That's no longer worth what I pay for it when it's broken down. Will I still play, most likely yes, as I love the Lore and story side of the game. Will I still sub though? That's the question I now ask myself. So the answer to your question in my case, is I do much of nothing in game, which is highly unusual for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG93
If you have multiple characters or multiple LI sets, then yes, there is a real grind to get those items maxed out now, but to mirror the comments from others... why do you need to? This game, unlike WoW, FFXIV, and even GW2 now, has no end-game PvE content gated behind gear progression. You could quite easily complete any end-game activity in this game with an unimbued 3rd-ager (and I would even include PvP in this). Turbine has provided no real content for some time now, and has simply created these grinds to give the illusion of content, to keep completionists occupied. My advice - vote with your wallet and play something where the developers still care and regularly provide quality content worthy of your money. Anyone can see that this game is being run on a barebones staff, trying to milk as much money out of it as possible before WB shuts it down.
You are going to be attacked. Just know I believe you because I know it is possible. There's no hurry. There's also no need to change out one's LI every few levels. If a player doesn't do that then they will accrue the necessities to barter or trade for the things they want to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by akkibora
Quote:
Originally Posted by Almagnus1
All grinds are optional. Doing any particular content in the game is optional. Playing the game is optional, for that matter.
All of the above exist because the company providing them can make some money from players who, in the end, want to do them or are willing to do them to get something they want. Even if it's just plain old entertainment.
Which is why I have not jumped aboard the "you don't need the maxxed out ILI" argument. It doesn't matter whether someone needs it or not. If they want the maxxed out ILI for whatever reason, even if it's just to have a maxxed out ILI, that's fine. In any event, the grind objectively is the same.
I say this as one of the few players in the game who can say they "need" the maxxed out ILI for their playstyle. The extra bit of power allows me to push the upper edge of what I can do in the game as an LM, and makes what used to be my upper limit a little more easy and less likely to result in defeat.
All MMO's are work when you have millions of alts in a game that has gotten very far story and content-wise.
Just stick with it, and keep working. You knew the grind for the MMO when you made and alt.
Want something done in 8-50 hours? Play Shadow of Mordor, or something else. Your whole life isn't supposed to be dedicated to a game. Games are meant for a pass-time for lives to simply have fun before we go into the real work of grind and work.
Yup, pretty much what some are saying. Thankfully though, Turbine have weighed in here, and they DO hear what is being said, and I think they would rather we do not take that advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Almagnus1
My main is an LM too. I'm not a particularly good player, but I'm not the worst and my character came into DA with all virtures fully maxed and excellent equipment for her level. And she couldn't do the Swan Knight dailies, Ker Bras and Ker Izel. I tried multiple times, in both trait lines, but a whole bunch of 38K wraiths with a quick respawn were too much for her squishy 13K (at the time) self. (I play in yellow and blue, which was probably the problem.) I can handle them now, of course, but not every character waltzes into level 100 and just blows through the landscape. Some of them do need the grind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scirocco
Yep. Totally no difference between raising the "Scroll cap" by 84 every six months, and raising it by 200 every six months. The grind is. . . somehow. . . always. . . "objectively the same."Quote:
Originally Posted by Scirocco
As for the "you signed up for this" crowd. . . keep those blinders on folks. There's nothing to see here. It's not like the Store incentivizes grind creation, acceleration, and exacerbation. No. Of course not.
:rolleyes:
It wouldn't be so bad if I didn't recognize the very same lies I told myself to avoid uncomfortable realizations about this game that I very much wanted to continue enjoying. Maybe some day you (all) too will allow the scales to fall from your eyes.
Um....err...ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolamrothdame
I love it when people come onto a MMO forum and tell folks how to live their lives and/or spend time in an MMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedmetalplayer21
The irony is delicious.
lol, my LM definitely needs it, because she is the squishiest of all squishy things. I found her incredibly boring because of how easy the class was to play while leveling up - pre lvl 85 (especially on war steed), and hence, at cap, she is just a skill deprived squishy bug (of my own making of course). That said, she is great fun to play in a group (obviously nothing too drastic for her limited skills), as a support class - I found that side of LM to be the fun part. But without grinding, she will never amount to being more than a token collector. I've other alts I would much prefer to take through this grind - than ironically, the alt that needs it the most. It's just sadly unfortunate that the game grind now is too high, and we have to make choices of which alts get geared and which don't because it's impossible to do them all.Quote:
Originally Posted by bucko39
Yes, they are. But speaking for myself, my real life job (systems analyst) and my avocation (special-needs animal care) are not a grind. I can only imagine the frustration of people who have dull, grindy jobs, and also face dull grinding in a game they love and look to for relief.Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedmetalplayer21
Again, I'm not blaming the designers and developers. I think they are caught between a rock and a hard place, and they are doing their best for us, given budgetary constraints and managerial dicta.
These last couple years I have been holding out that all of this grind would pay off with hours of running instances and raids with groups of friends. The problem was my patience was greater than my friends that I have been playing with since Rift was the end game. I made new friends who were excited about running instanced content. Slowly they have stopped playing and moved on as well since new instances or raids were not comeing.
Over the holiday weekend I picked up a different MMORPG on Black Friday sale. I picked one that I knew many of my LOTRO friends went to to seek refuge. Playing again with old friends doing low level group content (cuse im way behind at this point) was more fun then I have had in the past couple years of LOTRO. I log into the new game now for enjoyment and fun, LOTRO just feels like work with the grind and for no payout.
I regret not making this choice sooner.
I hear you, but no one "needs" the grind...they may "want" the things dangling like a carrot at the end of said grind, but that is all :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnenna
I believe the impressive missive quoted below is a very apt response to those who (correctly) point out that LOTRO has been a grind for quite some time, so why complain now? The nature and demands of the grind have grown over time ... and they are cumulative. E.g., the grind for scrolls for Imbued LIs does not relieve me of the burden of grinding deeds for Traits ... or the grind for Reputation ... or any of the preceding grinds along the way. And, yes, while my main has completed all (okay, actually only most) prior grinds, absent actual content to hold my attention, I am relegated to playing LOTRO for the sake of my alts ... hence, repeating all the grinds.
There are grinds, and there are grinds. It is for each of us to judge our respective tolerances for such tedium. Grinding is simply one form of "content" these days. There are raids (which I don't enjoy). There are Big Battles (which I loathe ... and have resigned myself to a fate that is bereft of completing Epics past Western Gondor). There is PvMP (no thanks). And, yes, there is grinding as a mode of play to consume my free time.
Personally, I just returned to LOTRO after an extended absence. I've been getting caught up on Eastern Gondor quests ... i.e., actual content that is new to me. I've taken my main into Minas Tirith, where I will complete all the soloable content available. I will then likely repeat this process for my second main. After that? Who knows? I have three Lifetime accounts, so it's not as if Turbine collects any money from me. I will likely allow LOTRO to sit unplayed until the next batch of new content (new to me) is released, knock it out over a long weekend, and return LOTRO to its stasis chamber.
LOTRO has been a regular activity since its release. LOTRO was my primary MMO, from which I would take short breaks. It is now the MMO I play when I take a short break from SWTOR ... basically from Thanksgiving to New Years, during which time, I complete whatever content was released during the year and spend a few nights at the Yule Fest.
I can't say "goodbye" to LOTRO ... we have this permanent bond (as I said ... three Lifetime accounts). It's hard not to feel a pang of sadness upon realizing that the mithril-strong kinship I shared with LOTRO cooled--over time--into a devoted friendship and, now, has chilled into a polite acquaintance. LOTRO has been earning "negative-reputation" with me for years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milogson