XP Reducer

Since the original beta for Shadows of Angmar I have been asking for this.
In Everquest 2 it helped a great deal to turn off xp while trying to help friends catch up.
There is NO reason not to have it and anyone who even debates this is asinine.
If you do not want to use it, do not use it...quite simple actually.
But it should be in there for those of us who want to use it.
If it is too hard to code a switch for it in options, make an item available to equip that prevents xp gain while equipped.
Again, there is NO reason not to have this.

I've been trying to search for a copy of the "end game content" survey that mentioned the xp slider to see if I could still take it. There's a handful of non Turbine based surveys, even reports about one Turbine did about having LOTRO be playable on the Xbox, but nothing on the end game content survey that I can find so far--not even a page showing results from that survey, which I find really odd.

I'm doing this because I do not remember seeing the option to take an end-game survey, and I'd really like to have my opinion counted now that I know Turbine would hide a question like an xp controller in a survey about end game content. (Something I would not normally have clicked on because I've not yet reached Moria, and thus have nothing truthful to say due to my lack of experience there.)

Does anyone know if this survey can still be taken, and if so, how?

Also, can anyone tell me if there is a page somewhere showing the actual results of the survey?

Thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by Gaming_Gal

I've been trying to search for a copy of the "end game content" survey that mentioned the xp slider to see if I could still take it. There's a handful of non Turbine based surveys, even reports about one Turbine did about having LOTRO be playable on the Xbox, but nothing on the end game content survey that I can find so far--not even a page showing results from that survey, which I find really odd.

I'm doing this because I do not remember seeing the option to take an end-game survey, and I'd really like to have my opinion counted now that I know Turbine would hide a question like an xp controller in a survey about end game content. (Something I would not normally have clicked on because I've not yet reached Moria, and thus have nothing truthful to say due to my lack of experience there.)

Does anyone know if this survey can still be taken, and if so, how?

Also, can anyone tell me if there is a page somewhere showing the actual results of the survey?

Thanks in advance.

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The only 'survey' I know of is this one: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=278762

It was from an ask-the-devs forums question thingee a few months back. Search for those and you'll probably find it. The question was posed to ask if we would like an item that we could use to temporarily suspend mob kill XP IIRC.

After a few days of it being up I read through all the responses and added up what I read. It basically broke down into three groups of about 1/3 respondents each.

1. No way, and please don't humor the people who are asking for it.
2. I may not personally use it at first blush, but I can see where it could be useful
3. Please, thank you.

<edit> Roberto has the right one above

Crumb. One more thing I have to keep track of--*adds to growing list*.

So, if you didn't answer in a week...you didn't get a voice. Interesting. (I say this based on time thread was opened to when the last post was made before it was closed.)

I also think it's worth noting the results you found henry316. 1/3 against doesn't seem like a majority to me. Not that the small handful of responders can be constituted as any true cross section of playerbase other than those who follow the ask the devs threads--but still.

Thank you Roberto_The-First and henry316 for the responses.

Floon and Made of Lions answered this topic right here:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=295127

You got your answer, and reasoning.

Cerataindisaster: After you posted the link, I re-read that thread, and I'm still bothered by their rationale in so far as survey results go. I have no arguments with other priorities--I just don't agree that the survey results they keep touting of late are a genuine sample of even actively playing folks, and the excuse about QA had me in stiches for obvious reasons. Any change means there's potential for more tickets. Those bluenames...they sure have a sense of humor at times.

But getting back to that infamous survey:
They hid a survey that was supposed to be based on end game content behind an ad which just happened to have a question about xp control within it, and then they claim that the results are an accurate sampling of what the players want? That seems at best dumb, to be frank, considering how many people don't trust ads or might not be at end game so why would they click on something that doesn't apply to them, and it reeks of "we covered our butts" mentality at worst.

I still would like to see the numbers from that survey. I don't think that's ridiculous--lots of companies release their research data all the time to help pr support company decisions. (And, yes, many of them tweak the numbers as well. I would like to think Turbine above that.)

What I'd rather see, though, is a more accurate sampling.

I know, I know, I could forest a planet with my wishes.

I support Tiempko on this idea.

I see the groups that dont like this idea
1 People who dont like this idea or do not see the Benifits of the idea.
2 People at level 60 and want more people in that area even if they are few day old noobs.
3 People who like to power level. Useless at level 60 and kill the whole fellowship or raid becuse there lack of Exp of the toon and how to fight. I seen level 54 LM that do not know how to use there pet to flank to heal them selfs.
4 People who sell supplys to people who like to be able to make there own stuff. So they have to buy from the AH.
5 People who are Crafter and crit Items that they can sell becuse they know by the time you are able to craft it. It useless to the person.

I bet most that most of the people who hate the idea.

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Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar

I support Tiempko on this idea.

I see the groups that dont like this idea
1 People who dont like this idea or do not see the Benifits of the idea.
2 People at level 60 and want more people in that area even if they are few day old noobs.
3 People who like to power level. Useless at level 60 and kill the whole fellowship or raid becuse there lack of Exp of the toon and how to fight. I seen level 54 LM that do not know how to use there pet to flank to heal them selfs.
4 People who sell supplys to people who like to be able to make there own stuff. So they have to buy from the AH.
5 People who are Crafter and crit Items that they can sell becuse they know by the time you are able to craft it. It useless to the person.

I bet most that most of the people who hate the idea.

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I dont know about some of those. I think most people are very indifferent to the whole system in general. I dont see many saying "NO Way! We dont want it!" I see people saying that they just dont care about it. And that is whats driving Turbines decision. If it is implemented I would not care, but would be happy for those of you who do want it. But the reality is, Turbine def. tried to mine some data on this some time back. They are privy to much more info than we are. The responses by floon and made of lions seem to suggest that contrary to a lot of opinions here, the xp toggle does not warrant development at this time when compared to development of other features or apps that a wider player base will use.

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Originally Posted by Gaming_Gal

Cerataindisaster: After you posted the link, I re-read that thread, and I'm still bothered by their rationale in so far as survey results go. I have no arguments with other priorities--I just don't agree that the survey results they keep touting of late are a genuine sample of even actively playing folks, and the excuse about QA had me in stiches for obvious reasons. Any change means there's potential for more tickets. Those bluenames...they sure have a sense of humor at times.

But getting back to that infamous survey:
They hid a survey that was supposed to be based on end game content behind an ad which just happened to have a question about xp control within it, and then they claim that the results are an accurate sampling of what the players want? That seems at best dumb, to be frank, considering how many people don't trust ads or might not be at end game so why would they click on something that doesn't apply to them, and it reeks of "we covered our butts" mentality at worst.

I still would like to see the numbers from that survey. I don't think that's ridiculous--lots of companies release their research data all the time to help pr support company decisions. (And, yes, many of them tweak the numbers as well. I would like to think Turbine above that.)

What I'd rather see, though, is a more accurate sampling.

I know, I know, I could forest a planet with my wishes.

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I just dont see the big conspiracy here on Turbines part. There have been many obvious things with much more weight that have been slammed down the priority list since MoM launched. I just think that turbines takes a response such as "Hmm I dont know I might use it" as a consumer who doesnt see it as a major issue therefore no need to spend resources on the application. Again, who knows what the future holds. But there are definite core game play elements that deserve resources much more that the xp slider.

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Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster

The responses by floon and made of lions seem to suggest that contrary to a lot of opinions here, the xp toggle does not warrant development at this time when compared to development of other features or apps that a wider player base will use.

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I personally fall into the "don't care" camp, it's not a feature I'd use but then there are a good number of those already.

However, I have to take issue with this comment you made. Floon didn't address the 'effort' at all, he simply observed a possible impact on Customer Service from idiots setting an option and then forgetting they'd done so. :rolleyes:

Clearly I have zero idea about how this game is architected, but to me it's implausible that a simple "is the NO_XP flag set, then don't increment total XP" test is anything other than trivial to implement code-wise: it's the addition of just another Option flag (of which there are a huge number already), adding a checkbox to an existing dialog and a run-time check of that flag, it can't be huge.

Turbine may have good reasons for not doing it, but development effort really can't be one IMO.

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Originally Posted by Kraggy

I personally fall into the "don't care" camp, it's not a feature I'd use but then there are a good number of those already.

However, I have to take issue with this comment you made. Floon didn't address the 'effort' at all, he simply observed a possible impact on Customer Service from idiots setting an option and then forgetting they'd done so. :rolleyes:

Clearly I have zero idea about how this game is architected, but to me it's implausible that a simple "is the NO_XP flag set, then don't increment total XP" test is anything other than trivial to implement code-wise: it's the addition of just another Option flag (of which there are a huge number already), adding a checkbox to an existing dialog and a run-time check of that flag, it can't be huge.

Turbine may have good reasons for not doing it, but development effort really can't be one IMO.

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Yea, im not really sure what it would entail either. Wouldnt seem to be difficult, but I am sure there is more to it than just getting the code right before it goes to the live clients. Here was floons first response in tha other thread:

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Originally Posted by floon

It wouldn't be the biggest task. It creates a huge QA task, but that's not insurmountable, either. It's just not something that a significant number of players really want: I can picture all the complaining about, "You spent your time on *this*?!? When we've been begging for *that*?!? DEV FAIL." We have other things to work on that many more players want. We have yet more things that players want that we don't have time to get to, that we would probably get to before getting to this.

There's probably a customer service cost here, too: anytime you give a tool to the players that allows them to hamper themselves in some fashion, there will be many that do so inadvertently, and this generates frustration and support requests.

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Dont know, seems to be multiple reasons from floon's comment. Seems the main point is there just isnt demand.

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Originally Posted by Kraggy

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Originally Posted by Cerataindisaster

The responses by floon and made of lions seem to suggest that contrary to a lot of opinions here, the xp toggle does not warrant development at this time when compared to development of other features or apps that a wider player base will use.

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I personally fall into the "don't care" camp, it's not a feature I'd use but then there are a good number of those already.

However, I have to take issue with this comment you made. Floon didn't address the 'effort' at all, he simply observed a possible impact on Customer Service from idiots setting an option and then forgetting they'd done so. :rolleyes:

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Uhh, RIF (10char):

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

I haven't heard of this being added. I imagine if it was it would lead to a lot of Customer Service tickets for people turning it on and then forgetting about it, and expecting to be compensated for lost XP.

MoL

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Originally Posted by floon

It wouldn't be the biggest task. It creates a huge QA task, but that's not insurmountable, either. It's just not something that a significant number of players really want: I can picture all the complaining about, "You spent your time on *this*?!? When we've been begging for *that*?!? DEV FAIL." We have other things to work on that many more players want. We have yet more things that players want that we don't have time to get to, that we would probably get to before getting to this.

There's probably a customer service cost here, too: anytime you give a tool to the players that allows them to hamper themselves in some fashion, there will be many that do so inadvertently, and this generates frustration and support requests.

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Originally Posted by floon

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Originally Posted by Locklear93

You might be surprised how many people who don't think they care would use it, though.

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You might be surprised how many wouldn't, though. We've done this enough to have a good gauge on what will get used, what will be more trouble than it's worth, and where to spend our limited time.

This isn't to knock mentoring and reverse-mentoring systems: those can be fun and useful. But they're a different thing than "turning off xp gain".

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I'm also in the "don't care" camp - don't care if it's in, don't care if it isn't. Doubt I'd ever use it, myself. But I definitely think it's silly to talk about this feature driving buying decisions for more than a tiny fraction of players. It rarely gets brought up at all, and on the few occasions it does... there are typically just a few who show any real passion for it. Most of the people for it seem to be of the "I might use that now and again if the game had it" variety. Turbine has obviously considered it, but I'm not too surprised it's a low-priority feature.

One comment on the "customer service" issue: there's a pretty easy way to fix that. Just turn XP back on again whenver a character logs in. Yes, it might be a tiny bit of work for people who want to use this to have to type "/xp off" each playing session, but it completely prevents the customer service issue floon and MadeOfLions are worried about, and if that's the price players who want it have to pay for getting it... I'd guess it's worth it to them.

Khafar

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Originally Posted by Thane9

I'm not sure what I said that implies I'm only looking for a conquest. My point is what is there that you can't do at L60 that you can do at 45?

Nothing. Not a single piece of gameplay is gated by being too high of a level.

So then there's the one single argument I've seen. That people want to do quests at a "challenging" level. And to that I say where does the challenge go when you level?

Why be challenged by a kill 10 mobs L45 quest over and over when you could be L50 running Carn Dum? Or the Rift? Clearly these are more significantlly challenging than any L45 quest out there.

Which logically then leads to only one answer. People don't want to level because they are driven, pathalogically or otherwise, to complete every single iota of material leaving no quest/deed/exploradion etc undone AND want to do it all on level.

That position is exceedingly difficult for me to understand. And the funny thing is, it's counter productive. By being obsessed with completing every L45 quest...or L25 for that matter...one will NEVER see the L65 material. So you're missing out on material in a quest to see all the material. Doesn't anyone else see that logical conflict?

Not to mention....there are always alts. I personally don't like playing alts that much because I hate the grind and the repitition, but it seems that this would be IDEAL for someone bent on seeing absolutely everything.

/shrug

Play the game any way you wish. But I think I've spelled out why I fail to see any logical reason for having an xp /off switch.

The fact is the devs put in MORE than enough material to level. They did this so the game isn't boring and without options. It's pretty clear the design was meant to lead to leveling and advancement, not 100% completion of every last kill x, go to y quest. Which lets face it 99% of all quests are just variants of the same few quests. Why is anyone so eager to do these same actions over and over and over?

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Basically when some people do a quest they want it to be challanging plain and simple. Not everyone wants a quest to be in easy mode which does happen if your 5 to 10 levels above the challange level of the dungeon. Now the on off or reduction switch is one way to go but I would perfer Quest/Dungeon challnage scaling.
So If I was a 45th level chartacter going into a 30th level quest of dungeon then I would like the option to have it scaled to my level (but not below the basic level of the quest.)
If I bring in 6 45th level guys into the 30th level dungeon then select the challange level for this group then that dungeon should scale up the level of the dungeon to challange that group.

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Originally Posted by GregJL

Uhh, RIF (10char):

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I'm sure you feel really proud of yourself for discovering the text size and color controls, what your contribution added to the discussion is less clear, and how it relates to what I said completely eludes me.

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Originally Posted by Kraggy

I'm sure you feel really proud of yourself for discovering the text size and color controls, what your contribution added to the discussion is less clear, and how it relates to what I said completely eludes me.

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It's simple. You said:

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Floon didn't address the 'effort' at all, he simply observed a possible impact on Customer Service from idiots setting an option and then forgetting they'd done so. :rolleyes:

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Since floon DID address the EFFORT, I figured you might have a problem with your vision, so I made the text bolded, enlarged and red. Now I see you either have a comprehension problem, are just plain stupid, knew what you were saying was a complete and total fabrication, or are being deliberately obtuse to piss me off. If it's the last, congratulations, and BYE!

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Originally Posted by Khafar

I'm also in the "don't care" camp - don't care if it's in, don't care if it isn't. Doubt I'd ever use it, myself. But I definitely think it's silly to talk about this feature driving buying decisions for more than a tiny fraction of players. It rarely gets brought up at all, and on the few occasions it does... there are typically just a few who show any real passion for it. Most of the people for it seem to be of the "I might use that now and again if the game had it" variety. Turbine has obviously considered it, but I'm not too surprised it's a low-priority feature.

One comment on the "customer service" issue: there's a pretty easy way to fix that. Just turn XP back on again whenver a character logs in. Yes, it might be a tiny bit of work for people who want to use this to have to type "/xp off" each playing session, but it completely prevents the customer service issue floon and MadeOfLions are worried about, and if that's the price players who want it have to pay for getting it... I'd guess it's worth it to them.

Khafar

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One of the worst things that you can have happen in-game is to leave your character without an obvious way to progress. People even now manage to get themselves into situations (by doing quests at the wrong level) where they find stretches where it is hard to progress.

It is very, very easy to imagine someone doing all of the, say, late 20s quests with experience off - and then discovering that they are too weak to progress to the next tier and there is no way to fix it except to slaughter tons of mobs. They may have even *intended* to do this without realizing the consequences. And it doesn't even *help* someone who is already 10 levels higher and who wants to jump back and help a friend. So not only is there an extremely obvious problem: the solution doesn't help except for a very limited set of circumstances.

A mentoring/shrouding system is far, far more general and better.

As an aside, I completely agree with the prioritization of resources verses bug fixes and feature requests from customers. And I don't think may people really debate the issue. Some of us are not speaking figuratively either. I am a dev myself for something quite large, so I get it.

What I can't really understand is why when these threads show up every so often, people have a compulsive need to try and tear down other customer's requests. I mean, I'm sure Turbine is quite capable of controlling their own priorities. And I certainly would have never considered going into the hobbies threads and trying to tell all the folks who wanted fishing, that their needs were insignificant and that Turbine shouldn't humor them AND that they should stop writing in those threads.

In all honesty, I have no idea what compels folks to come into these threads and try to behave as surrogate Turbine employees. Debating the merits of an idea is fine I guess if you have some sort of compelling interest. Or even if you're bored and have a web browser. :) I just have no idea why this topic engenders so much animosity from people who have no stake in it.

Maybe I just don't spend enough time in other people's threads about things I don't care about to understand. I suppose I should go into other people's suggestions and requests threads and start disagreeing with them and telling them that their request is futile, doesn't make sense, and Turbine shouldn't listen to them. Maybe then I would get it.

I dunno. Seems impolite to to me.

(oh and to the reasonable people, this doesn't apply to you obviously)

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Originally Posted by henry316

What I can't really understand is why when these threads show up every so often, people have a compulsive need to try and tear down other customer's requests. I mean, I'm sure Turbine is quite capable of controlling their own priorities. And I certainly would have never considered going into the hobbies threads and trying to tell all the folks who wanted fishing, that their needs were insignificant and that Turbine shouldn't humor them AND that they should stop writing in those threads.

In all honesty, I have no idea what compels folks to come into these threads and try to behave as surrogate Turbine employees. Debating the merits of an idea is fine I guess if you have some sort of compelling interest. Or even if you're bored and have a web browser. :) I just have no idea why this topic engenders so much animosity from people who have no stake in it.

Maybe I just don't spend enough time in other people's threads about things I don't care about to understand. I suppose I should go into other people's suggestions and requests threads and start disagreeing with them and telling them that their request is futile, doesn't make sense, and Turbine shouldn't listen to them. Maybe then I would get it.

I dunno. Seems impolite to to me.

(oh and to the reasonable people, this doesn't apply to you obviously)

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Personally? I think I'm about to start arguing FOR this feature, if only to stop the posting of a NEW thread about it every two weeks. And to be honest, if they DO implement it, I think it should need to be turned on upon EVERY login, or at least a reminder needs to pop up on the screen stating "XP gain is turned off, is this what you want?"

However, I would RATHER have a full mentoring system.

As for why people feel the need to tear down an idea...Well...I'd say a lot of the vehemence on THIS idea at least has more to do with the poster and a couple of others than the idea. People don't like being told it's none of their business why someone would want something implemented, or that if they don't understand why people want this, it's because they are leet power-levelers.

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Originally Posted by Ohioastro

One of the worst things that you can have happen in-game is to leave your character without an obvious way to progress.

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Good point, which is another reason to require people to explicitly turn XP off each playing session. A warning about "stranding" their character without much content they can do might be appropriate too.

Khafar

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Originally Posted by Khafar

Good point, which is another reason to require people to explicitly turn XP off each playing session. A warning about "stranding" their character without much content they can do might be appropriate too.

Khafar

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I think there should be everybit of a warning you could possibly get.
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1. Have the XP bar turn red (like the LIs)
2. Have a small icon on the screen (like all the other status icons we get)
3. A confirmation box and a description (like we have for equipping cosmetic gear)
4. Clearly show '0 xp' in the floaties when you kill things, or turn in quests.
5. Make it an every session thing like /rp (or every every few hours)
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I certainly would not want to leave people stranded. (as an aside to this day I've never understood how this can actually happen even though it apparently does. Leveling is ridiculously easy...)

How could you ever get stranded? Lets say that you completed all possible quests at L30. That's all the quests up to L36 quests. Pretty difficult, but achievable. You could just sit and grind mobs forever to catch up again. You may run out of quests, but you will never run out of Mobs. Probably get a couple of deeds out of the deal as well.

--Harperella

An xp reducer is such a waste of dev time the idea is pointless. Like a dev stated before. adding an xp reducer would just result in many more trouble tickets from people who accidently turned off their xp and want an XP refund because of it. The problems outweigh the benefits.

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Originally Posted by Banaticus

Of course I enjoyed it, or I wouldn't still be here today. You know what? I still enjoy it. Wowzer, the ability to continue enjoying it with a level 60 character?!? Yes, it's true.

I've told you before, the game is as hard as you make it. If you think it's too easy, then hobble yourself. I've given you several different things you can do to make the game harder on yourself.

I've also told you about the downside of reducing xp and allowing a character to be locked, namely the possibility of becoming stuck at a certain level. What if a level 30 stopped their xp then went and quested in order to have "more fun" doing content "on level". How would they ever get to 35 if they accidentally left it on for too long? They could end up stuck with only grey and red quests. You may say that this is a ridiculous notion but when the xp curve was altered, when the Moors started giving an xp buff when freeps had the artifacts, I remember some level 30 characters complaining that they were now going to be "too high" to do all the North Downs quests "on level". Was that you? If your xp could have been locked back then, would you have gotten yourself stuck?

The devs created fun level 50 content. The choice whether to play through it all is yours. The choice of how hard it will be is yours. The choice of whether or not you'll have fun is yours as well. :)

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But it becomes to easy if you run that content with a party 10 levels higher. How is this challanging.
What they should do is go back to the old xp leveling ways (slower leveling) and have a challange adjustment on each quest/dungeon to tailor it to the number of people and thier levels in a group. Sorry man but there are some of us that perfer the game to be a challange not a cake walk.