Why doesn't lotro have a dps meter?

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Originally Posted by Nymphonic

Calling another player mediocre just because you have the impression that your gameplay is better.

I cannot stand elitism. A game is played to have fun. Not to make sure that you are living up to someones standards.

I would play with a less skilled(I won't use the word mediocre) player that is a good person anyday over some guy that thinks he needs a meter to keep track of someones damage quota.

This is not some kind of paranoia. I've been there. I've experienced it. Its that kind of attitude which is why I have no desire to repeat that experience.

After reading that post I am more against dps meters than ever before.

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Your first mistake is thinking what I said is elitist.

Yes a game is played to be fun. I won't disagree with that. But if I join a PUG, and the Champion never grouped in his life, and he's wiping us because either a) he's constantly taking aggro from the tank or b) he, and the other DPS, aren't putting out enough and we're dying. Is this fun? No it's not.

I have been in many PUGs where the group wipes constantly, not because the content is too hard, but because the players are so bad. When I call these players mediocore, I'm not being elitist. It's the truth. Nobody wants to wipe constantly in SG, GS, or whatever else.

Meters will improve players. It will help them identify their mistakes and they will improve.

If I say player X does not know how to play it's not elitist if he really doesn't. This game is -not- hard. If you can't function in a group with your class on a basic level, you are mediocore.

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Originally Posted by Magian

Meters will improve players. It will help them identify their mistakes and they will improve.

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This is a matter of opinion, the way a player improves is playing his class, not only soloing, but in group, you cannot expect people to go in to a dungeon for the first time in his life, lets say a champ at level 20, going in to GB, and know exactly how group mechanics work. After a few runs not only in GB but other instances he will know his class better, how to not pull aggro while doing good DPS for example.

Meters dont give you a huge red arrow pointing out your mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Magian

I will take the risk to generalize a bit, though I don't think it's entirely inaccurate: the principle problem of the whole meter debate is too many people are looking at it through the WoW lense and drawing erroneous conclusions. For example I often read - including this thread - meters will cause problem X. Interestingly enough, nearly all these "problems" are the same that occur in WoW. Further, if you break down the complaint enough, you see evidence of considerable community immaturity as the reason for the problem.

So the question is this: does the meter cause this problem or the community?

I really believe it is the latter, not the former. Meters are teaching tools. They allow you to see damage or threat per second in a very intuitive way. What you do with the information is entirely up to you. Whether or not we have meters, if some guy is going to rail you for sucky DPS, he'll do it regardless. We've all seen it in one form or another.

I agree quite a bit with Gramps on this. Meters are coming. Personally, I really want them to come sooner rather than later. Flame me, lambaste me for what I'm about to say, I don't care: not enough people know how to play their class efficiently and properly and steadfastly refuse to acknowledge their shortcomings. The meter that is available to everyone to see? Well, protest all you want, the mediocrity can't be hidden anymore.

In other words, meters will show the mediocore players that they are -in fact- mediocore and they can use the meter to play with skill rotations to improve themselves. PUGs are among the worst things one can experience in LOTRO. Meters are a great first step in the right direction to remedy this. Don't you want better PUG groups?

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And I'm going to have to agree with Mavery, then check to see if hell has frozen over (Yes I can check anytime i want)

It is up to each group leader or whom-ever is using these tools, to use them in a constructive way. If they dont, then /leave_group and /ignore add name

I will use them as a teaching tool. For myself and anyone else open to constructive criticism. If someone doesn't want to hear it, fine. Thats on them. Threat meters are my primary goal though. I will push for them in every way possible,

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Originally Posted by Nymphonic

Calling another player mediocre just because you have the impression that your gameplay is better.

I cannot stand elitism. A game is played to have fun. Not to make sure that you are living up to someones standards.

I would play with a less skilled(I won't use the word mediocre) player that is a good person anyday over some guy that thinks he needs a meter to keep track of someones damage quota.

This is not some kind of paranoia. I've been there. I've experienced it. Its that kind of attitude which is why I have no desire to repeat that experience.

After reading that post I am more against dps meters than ever before.

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Look, I know a good player when i see one and I know a player that isnt top tier just as easy. The point is for me personally, I'll use a dps meter with anyone that wants to get better. If they dont, I wont even mention it. Hell, we do this even now. Everytime we are in a run, if there is something someone can do to improve I've got an obligation to my kin to adress that. In a constructive way of course.

I have no doubt you have some seriously messed up horror stories from WoW or what ever. But remember, this is Lotro. We have ONE raid. This isn't a min-max game (though you could make it so even now) it may get more min-max when a dps/threat meter is launched (and it will) but this is still going to be Lotro.

The community at large is the best in the industry for starters, I do think that there will be a small handful of kins that use them for min-max in group content, there will be a small number of players that use them during Pugs, and yes you will probably see GLFF:Need one 650dps plus hunter or RK
from time to time. But its not going to be the end of the world, and people are going to have to accept it, deal with it, suck it up or leave.

There are going to be tens-hundreds of thousands of new players in this game in the next few weeks/months the game is going to explode, its going to be one of the biggest games in the market and *wait for it*

There will be threat and dps meters in game at some point. There is nothing anyone can say or do about it. They will be in game.

And I Cant wait!!




*Note to Mav*
You said oh about two years ago that these types of tools would dumb down the game and you wouldn't support these types of tools. This was in a thread I started about these add-ons a very long time ago.
Why they change of heart?

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Originally Posted by ArroyoJR

Meters dont give you a huge red arrow pointing out your mistakes.

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Very true. But they at the very least isolate one possible item on the "how to get better' list.

To go back to my own view on these meters, for me its possible that they very well could be a big red arrow. But class mechanics as a whole, your right. Its going to be a small-medium sized arrow.

So whats all the hub-bub if this is the case?

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Originally Posted by Grampsaz

*Note to Mav*
You said oh about two years ago that these types of tools would dumb down the game and you wouldn't support these types of tools. This was in a thread I started about these add-ons a very long time ago.
Why they change of heart?

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Opinions fluctuate over time and mine is no different. I think part of it is I went back to WoW a few months ago, did some instancing and raiding, gave meters another look, and, heh, I had a change of heart. :)

edit: I want to further add this: the game (raiding) since we reached SoM has gotten much harder. I do think there is a disconnect between player skill and developers think skill should be at. Players need help right now and I don't want content dumbed down.

The only way a DPS Meter is helpful is if the players having issues pay attention to those issues and want to improve. 99% of the time, the bad players don't care and would rather have someone carry them.

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Originally Posted by Grampsaz

Very true. But they at the very least isolate one possible item on the "how to get better' list.

To go back to my own view on these meters, for me its possible that they very well could be a big red arrow. But class mechanics as a whole, your right. Its going to be a small-medium sized arrow.

So whats all the hub-bub if this is the case?

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And I couldnt agree with you more also. Good raid leaders, good players will use the tools just as my guild used them in WoW. Bad raid leaders, bad players will go on every single channel they can to post meters and say: PWND!

There are great people here... there are bad people here, My best guess is that bad people will overlap good people turning this game in to a flamefest to see who wins at LRN2PLAY.

You have to admit that the worries behind those statements is a very valid concern also.

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Originally Posted by Magian

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Meters are teaching tools. They allow you to see damage or threat per second in a very intuitive way.
<snip>

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Meters are not teaching tools. They are testing tools.

A teaching tool would help me to learn which skills/rotations/strategies/etc. produce the best results. A testing tool only lets me compare a number (a number which only represents one single aspect of group play) to some benchmark... and at the point when that benchmark gets decided, then the elitism will begin, and then the devs begin to design for that benchmark.

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PUGs are among the worst things one can experience in LOTRO. Meters are a great first step in the right direction to remedy this. Don't you want better PUG groups?

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I guess it's all in what you're looking for.

I'd rather group with a bunch of fun but unskillful players and suffer a series of wipes than group with a bunch of un-fun people who were obsessed with gear and rotations and spoke only in terse military commands.

The first time I join a group and they ask "Wuts ur DPS?" I'll know this group doesn't share my goals or interests. So... actually, now that I think about it, maybe meters aren't so bad after all. It will help me to prune who I play with and who I don't just as much as it will help you. ;)

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and then the devs begin to design for that benchmark.

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The small raiding community in this game doesn't have enough influence in development to warrent that point you made.

But seriously, Devs have benchmarks now. Anytime they want they can query up every single hunter on every single server and over any length of time find that bench mark.

So dont assume for one minute they are going to wait for dps meters to be launched to see where our dps is, so they can then balance content based on the 1-5% hard-core players that put out 5-10% more dps then everyone else.

How do you think they come up with the current dps numbers on skills/items? Pull them out of a hat?

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Originally Posted by ddaedelus

I'd rather group with a bunch of fun but unskillful players and suffer a series of wipes than group with a bunch of un-fun people who were obsessed with gear and rotations and spoke only in terse military commands.

The first time I join a group and they ask "Wuts ur DPS?" I'll know this group doesn't share my goals or interests. So... actually, now that I think about it, maybe meters aren't so bad after all. It will help me to prune who I play with and who I don't just as much as it will help you. ;)

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I totally get you, but I'd like to group of people who are fun and know- at least a little- about what they're doing. I mean, wiping over pulls that are *easy*, or people not at all talking but doing Leeroy Jenkins for pulls that should not have that, that is not fun whatsoever :P

In other words, yay for happy mediums!

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Originally Posted by BellusDuFenna

As funny - and fitting - as that phrase may be, I do hope it doesn't catch on around here. With lots of new players coming in on 9/10, I would hate to see them start getting called Wowbrats, or any other derogatory name, for that matter.

Just saying. Sorry to take this off on a tangent.

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i thought the decided upon name was froobs :p

I don't need a meter to tell me that many of you failed at character creation when you chose to not be a dwarf.

/positive contribution to the thread.

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Originally Posted by findorin-gilrain

What is better - the very skilled and situationally aware hunter with the 59 1st Age or even 60 2nd Age - or the complete to**pot with the 65 bow who can't control themselves....

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I'd prefer the aware hunter that is going to do decent dps and not pull aggro to either of them. DPS meter = they see evidence that they are doing less DPS, they are able to play around on their own and see how they can improve their DPS. That person then benefits from this information both in groups and solo. Threat meter lets you know you need to dial it back or switch to a secondary target for a few moments.

Lazy isn't the right word for this particular issue since lazy implies someone who would not care if they were of any benefit. I'll say unaware players, that is closer to what I was thinking when I typed that anyway.

I do not think meters would hurt the playing experience and it would help some players understand what they need to be doing better. If a person does not want to use them, they will not use them. Kinships that do not want to use them will not use them. Those of us who want to see the numbers and do anything we can to improve will use them. Kinships that are trying to learn to raid but having trouble would find them a HUGE benefit.

You can see the issue right here in this thread, the way people act about a DPS meter.


All of a sudden a cooperative venture becomes a competitive one between players


As I said, this would probably be a game breaker for me.

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Originally Posted by Magian

So the question is this: does the meter cause this problem or the community?

I really believe it is the latter, not the former. Meters are teaching tools. They allow you to see damage or threat per second in a very intuitive way. What you do with the information is entirely up to you. Whether or not we have meters, if some guy is going to rail you for sucky DPS, he'll do it regardless. We've all seen it in one form or another.

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I do have to agree that it is how the players use the information from those addons which can be a problem. Addons themselves may be an issue, but not the root cause; they are simply a route by which the problem can manifest itself.

However, while such addons might be good as teaching/testing tools... they can also be used in a non-constructive manner, as we all know. In a game with a great community like this one, such insolent behavior would be much more shocking than in a game like WoW, for an example.

Personally, while they might be useful if used in a good way, I would rather not have these meters in LOTRO so I wouldn't have to deal with the potential side effects. If that makes things harder in instances, that is a Good Thing™, as that simply encourages more awareness amongst players and therefore more coordination... which I believe is the most important thing which needs to be taught, and can only be learned through experience and not addons.

DPS meters have the theoretical potential to help people improve their game.

But, as I think WoW has proved, in an MMO community (large, effectively anonymous, wildly variable maturity and play styles) they generally have a negative effect on grouping and the community in general. What should be a guidline/part of the picture soon becomes the be-all, end-all.

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Originally Posted by Hesiod_LOTRO

As a former WoW raid tank, I would say to the OP that you do not want your DPS competing with each other on the meter.

They forget all about being team players as soon as there is a high score list. They pull aggro. They pull mobs that they shouldn't. They attack things that they shouldn't. They DPS when they are supposed to be doing something else. Anything they can do to "win" the meter. And it's not like you can just replace the ones that do this because they ALL do it!

DPS meter was the one add-on in WoW that I wished could be un-invented.

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Agreed, 100%. But you forgot a few. Like dpsing instead of wiping when a wipe is called so that you can pad your dps. Like complaining that "its going to affect my dps" when you are asked to not use your AoE skill on a certain fight (or worse, not saying that and using it anyway - yeah, I've seen it). And on and on. When DPS becomes King, DPS will be King. And lets not get into healing meters - I can't tell you how many times I had a HoT healer stacking HoTs on the entire raid when the tank was in trouble and he could have helped out, just to stay at the top of the healing charts. Honestly, that's where the most insidious abuse will happen - with healers.

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Originally Posted by Magian

In other words, meters will show the mediocore players that they are -in fact- mediocore and they can use the meter to play with skill rotations to improve themselves. PUGs are among the worst things one can experience in LOTRO. Meters are a great first step in the right direction to remedy this. Don't you want better PUG groups?

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Oh Lord no, meters are not the answer. WoW has meters, more meters than you can shake a stick at, and PuGs are much worse there. I know from experience, lots of it.

Meters give a good player nothing more than a yardstick to measure against. A bad player will not know what to do with one. To make improvement you then have to experiment with different builds on a combat dummy which even then only gives you an inkling, because you aren't raid buffed. You have to start studying websites - oh, meters will spawn websites - like Elitist Jerks to see what the latest rotation/build/buff is giving the highest dps so you can squeak out another three points of dps. You will have to start running more add-ons, like a combat log parser which can give you information on everyone, not just you. You will have to look for public logs from leading raiding kins to see what the best of your class are doing - what % of total is a certain skill used versus another skill, etc. You will be introduced to mods like Rawr, which is a spreadsheet that allows you to switch out different pieces of gear on your character and will tell you how much it affects your dps.

Think that's fantasy because your RL won't require meters? Once they are in the game they will fast become required. It will happen as soon as your group hits a wall with a raid boss and cannot seem to get around it. You'll see, because I agree they are inevitable. Then you can watch the elitists in your group come out of their holes.

But as you can see, I have no opinion on this subject. :)

I thought about this, a mate of mine plays WoW and has every mod imaginable, there is even one apparently that tracks AH prices so you can maximize your time/profit on any given item.

Overall I don't really care I suppose, either way, personally I would be unlikely to use a DPS meter but then again it would be interesting. I am fairly aware I don't do as much DPS as a lot of hunters. I notice the higher DPSers spend a lot more time kiting though...and as a hunter you are not DPSing while kiting so I really wonder if the extra damage really makes a difference in the end by as much as people think.

But to say any of that would point out a fail hunter/RK/champ is the kind of reason I wouldn't want the meter, for the reasons pointed out already. Honestly there are few occassions IMO that DPS really matters, although I'll admit lots of people seem to want to cheat by maxing it to the point they can skip a mechanic.

I'd take a hunter doing 10% less damage on Durchest that never gets his agro but costs us maybe 2-3 minutes more in the fight than mister uber that risks wiping us any day. Unless a DPSer is AFK they are usually doing enough in a fight in my experience, wiping is far more often due to standing somewhere silly or not removing wounds etc.

I'm starting to see a stark categorization emerge that is disturbing. It runs like this:

People who don't care about maximizing DPS / threat are good people. People who care about maximizing DPS / threat are social deliquents who are no more than scum.

Could we please stop this? Raiders already do this, and while there are less desirable raiders than others, there are still good people. Much the same with casuals, soloers and any other group that you can think of.

Basically I see no evidence that constructs a direct causation between maximizing DPS/threat -> being scum of the earth. There are arguments you can make for gross immaturity -> being scum of the earth but just because those who are grossly immature love meters does not mean meters -> being scum of the earth.

I just don't see how tracking and perfecting skill cycles makes you any worse of a person (and that is clearly being categorized here).

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Originally Posted by Grampsaz

The small raiding community in this game doesn't have enough influence in development to warrent that point you made.

But seriously, Devs have benchmarks now. Anytime they want they can query up every single hunter on every single server and over any length of time find that bench mark.

So dont assume for one minute they are going to wait for dps meters to be launched to see where our dps is, so they can then balance content based on the 1-5% hard-core players that put out 5-10% more dps then everyone else.

How do you think they come up with the current dps numbers on skills/items? Pull them out of a hat?

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Point taken. Yes, the devs have their benchmarks I'm sure. I just don't want those benchmarks to become the player's benchmarks, or, worse yet, for the players to set those benchmarks higher and lock out decent, passable players just to have a quick easy win (quick and easy for those players, at least).

And while I understand that your focus is on raids, it's not just raiders we're talking about, it's the impact on general instance PUGs. If the meters stayed within the hard core raid groups, then no one would gripe. But I guarantee they will not.

But I agree with your earlier statement: DPS and threat meters are coming whether people like them or not.

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Originally Posted by Magian

I'm starting to see a stark categorization emerge that is disturbing. It runs like this:

People who don't care about maximizing DPS / threat are good people. People who care about maximizing DPS / threat are social deliquents who are no more than scum.

Could we please stop this? Raiders already do this, and while there are less desirable raiders than others, there are still good people. Much the same with casuals, soloers and any other group that you can think of.

Basically I see no evidence that constructs a direct causation between maximizing DPS/threat -> being scum of the earth. There are arguments you can make for gross immaturity -> being scum of the earth but just because those who are grossly immature love meters does not mean meters -> being scum of the earth.

I just don't see how tracking and perfecting skill cycles makes you any worse of a person (and that is clearly being categorized here).

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Perhaps it is simply from the viewpoint of said meters being the problem, or perhaps because of other current issues.

Still, it does show the scale of the conflict over this one subject. If there are any benefits from these meters, the potential side effects appear to outweigh them. The antagonism which is evident in this thread alone is a clear warning sign.

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Originally Posted by ddaedelus

DPS and threat meters are coming whether people like them or not.

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We don't know that for certain yet, so they may or may not come to LOTRO. Personally, I see the latter as more plausible.

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Originally Posted by RingOfFire

Perhaps it is simply from the viewpoint of said meters being the problem, or perhaps because of other current issues.

Still, it does show the scale of the conflict over this one subject. If there are any benefits from these meters, the potential side effects appear to outweigh them. The antagonism which is evident in this thread alone is a clear warning sign.

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It is something you could call "problem conflict confusion." We all can clearly identify the problem - social deliquency and otherwise immature behaviour. What we don't see clearly is the cause of it. Causal theory itself is flawed (as Hume demonstrated long ago) but we all seem to assent to it. I guess you could say it's just frustrating to see A causes B but when you break down the causation, it is simply wrong.

I think we have to look at them being -apparent- side effects and -apparent- antagonism. I could offer up raids instead of meters and it elicits the same response. Yet we still have them.

Food for thought.

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Originally Posted by RingOfFire

Perhaps it is simply from the viewpoint of said meters being the problem, or perhaps because of other current issues.

Still, it does show the scale of the conflict over this one subject. If there are any benefits from these meters, the potential side effects appear to outweigh them.

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haha it reminds me of those perscription drugs with the really long disclaimer.

Take X it'll cure you stuffy nose and your headache

side effects may include loss of sight, loss of feeling in fingers, heart attack, stroke, general muscle attrophy,dizzeyness,runny nose, migrains, stomach aches and in some rare cases death occured :p

but ur headaches gone

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Originally Posted by Magian

I'm starting to see a stark categorization emerge that is disturbing. It runs like this:

People who don't care about maximizing DPS / threat are good people. People who care about maximizing DPS / threat are social deliquents who are no more than scum.

Could we please stop this? Raiders already do this, and while there are less desirable raiders than others, there are still good people. Much the same with casuals, soloers and any other group that you can think of.

Basically I see no evidence that constructs a direct causation between maximizing DPS/threat -> being scum of the earth. There are arguments you can make for gross immaturity -> being scum of the earth but just because those who are grossly immature love meters does not mean meters -> being scum of the earth.

I just don't see how tracking and perfecting skill cycles makes you any worse of a person (and that is clearly being categorized here).

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Personally I like number crunching. I like knowing exactly what the numbers are and how they influence the game. One of the hardest things I've had to get used to in LotRO is the ridiculously vague information we're given about how the game actually works. Despite my love of numbers and min/maxing, I hate DPS meters. They're situational and only arguably represent a useful statistic (what about debuffing/healing/threat/crowd control and all the other aspects of grouping? No longer important because we have... DPS!).

Yet given the ability to compete with another player -- even in a largely co-operative game -- players will compete, and they will divide themselves into winners and losers. DPS meters give players another way to compete in this way. I've never seen it lead to a fun play environment even under the best of intentions. It just breeds competition and resentment. It doesn't take a jerk to be competitive. All it takes is being a gamer.

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Originally Posted by Magian

It is something you could call "problem conflict confusion." We all can clearly identify the problem - social deliquency and otherwise immature behaviour. What we don't see clearly is the cause of it. Causal theory itself is flawed (as Hume demonstrated long ago) but we all seem to assent to it. I guess you could say it's just frustrating to see A causes B but when you break down the causation, it is simply wrong.

I think we have to look at them being -apparent- side effects and -apparent- antagonism. I could offer up raids instead of meters and it elicits the same response. Yet we still have them.

Food for thought.

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Perhaps, but regardless of the actual cause the problem is still there. Therefore, taking steps to prevent said problem from being able to manifest itself easily would seem reasonable, would it not?

In this case, the meters provide data which can be used in a constructive way, or in a less pleasant manner. Regardless of what MMO a player spends his/her time in, there will always be at least one who will use such data in a rather insolent manner. With a community like this one, restricting the means by which such actions can be accomplished would be good for the general long-term health of it. These meters have the unfortunate side-effect of opening a loophole which can be taken advantage of, so doing without the potential advantages from them may actually be more beneficial as a whole.