@turbine: my.lotro shows everything - to everyone - no matter what

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Originally Posted by Eltar

The main problem seems to be, that you don't really know to whom the toons belong to.
If the toons would belong to the players, I could understand, that you treat them as a kind of your identity.
But in fact, all of them belong to Turbine.
And that is what everybody accepted in the TOC.

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As I play those chars, my activities are protocolled and shared public. That´s independent from who owns those chars and my impression from your style of argumentation is, that you don´t have real arguments why this service can´t be offered so you show up with empty phrases which doesn´t get the point.

Taking someone for a fool would be indeed the adequate translation - which does not quite equal "not believing someone's explanation". In both languages.

I understand that you don't like it. I also understand why. Still - at this point in time - the official answer is "it will stay like this". So if you don't believe the official representative here on the forum you likely won't believe anyone else within that organisation either.

You are definitely not making a good case with accusations. Although that would have been only something that "others" would have said.


I can't wrap my head around the fact what potential this states. It seems to me that we are absolutely enabled to tell very precisely how many active players are on each server. No more looking at statistics of how many characters log on to the game during what times, no - characters don't matter anymore because we are able to relate them to one customer. No need to check this on a daily basis, Turbine provides all the data - just run a query of the activity.
<O:p</O:p
The only (likely small) percentage that would be missing is players with only characters under 20 (no skirmish), unless there are other option to figure out character names.



I personally don't care if anyone can look at my activity. Obviously anyone who has revealed his character(s) to others in the real world has compromised parts of his privacy.


I am aware now that I am not able to have "private" characters in theory. Practically either someone starts to write a program here or will spend a long time to create a database of some 10,000 characters (or currently 9,422 characters listed on crickhollows skirmishboard) to figure that out - unless I make it easy and keep all my characters in the same kinship.


It is definitely sad to see any sort of "forced" sharing. Of course I realize that I am neither forced to play this game nor participate on these boards - but if I was a celebrity I would now never come forward and say which character I am playing, just to have someone telling me when I played etc.
Similar situation for anyone on a fansite, player of the month or people who became friends through LotrO.


I wasn't aware of this until the other day here. I can personally live with it - do I like it the philosophy behind it? No. Everyone seems to want to start some sort of network. Not the reason why I quit Blizzard games - but the reason why I don't play their games right now. I really wanted to try SC2.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I fully expect there will be those that make this a personal agenda item and sadly no amount of facts or openness and honesty can ever dissuade people once they have set their minds to an desired out come. Reasonable or otherwise.

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Well thing is simple. Even if you check privacy options other people can bypass it easily with fiddling with url. You for some reason don't want to make that impossible.

Many people don't agree with this policy , also what's belong to companies what to person, what are rights of consumers in EU and US differ quite much.
Obviously since all servers will be in US this will limit a bit influence of EU law (thought not completly as service will still be offered to EU consumers) so you will get repeadetly complaints about that from EU (and I guess some US as well) consumers. You will have to get used to it. Even if you will close topics it will come back as bumerang as privacy thing is very serious business in Europe both culturally , mentally and in law.

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Originally Posted by Munitis

Well thing is simple. Even if you check privacy options other people can bypass it easily with fiddling with url. You for some reason don't want to make that impossible.

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And that is stated plainly about character information being owned by Turbine to use in whatever they please, publicly or privately.

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Many people don't agree with this policy , also what's belong to companies what to person, what are rights of consumers in EU and US differ quite much.

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Not really...you and I have the exact same rights, the issue here is that some believe that their character data is akin to personally identifiable information and that it should be treated as such. This is an incorrect assumption and one that is flatly stated as such in the terms of service.

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Obviously since all servers will be in US this will limit a bit influence of EU law (thought not completly as service will still be offered to EU consumers) so you will get repeadetly complaints about that from EU (and I guess some US as well) consumers. You will have to get used to it. Even if you will close topics it will come back as bumerang as privacy thing is very serious business in Europe both culturally , mentally and in law.

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Why should Turbine 'get used to it' and not the other way around? This isn't a thing of privacy as nothing gathered is private information. The information gathered is bits of data that have nothing to do with your person, is owned wholly by Turbine, and is explained (in detail) what can be done with via the terms of service.

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Originally Posted by DarkCntry

And that is stated plainly about character information being owned by Turbine to use in whatever they please, publicly or privately.

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I am aware of that.

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Not really...you and I have the exact same rights, the issue here is that some believe that their character data is akin to personally identifiable information and that it should be treated as such. This is an incorrect assumption and one that is flatly stated as such in the terms of service.

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Of course it is not akin to personally identifiable information by law nor it should be. That don't change fact that many people treat information of their in-game characters personal.

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Why should Turbine 'get used to it' and not the other way around? This isn't a thing of privacy as nothing gathered is private information. The information gathered is bits of data that have nothing to do with your person, is owned wholly by Turbine, and is explained (in detail) what can be done with via the terms of service.

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Becasue many people don't like it. New player will come and some of them will learn about current situation - some of they will not like it and thus they will complain.
Some of current players not aware of it , will during their time in Lotro get more interested about MyLotro and some of them won't like current situation thus some of them will come and complain.
Even if you're in full right to do things that will bother others you cannot expect that they won't react to it. What's here not to understand?

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Originally Posted by Munitis

I am aware of that.



Of course it is not akin to personally identifiable information by law nor it should be. That don't change fact that many people treat information of their in-game characters personal.

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That's not the problem of Turbine, just like it's not the problem of Turbine how people use the information. If someone abuses it in a fashion that Turbine does police, they will.

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Becasue many people don't like it. New player will come and some of them will learn about current situation - some of they will not like it and thus they will complain.
Some of current players not aware of it , will during their time in Lotro get more interested about MyLotro and some of them won't like current situation thus some of them will come and complain.
Even if you're in full right to do things that will bother others you cannot expect that they won't react to it. What's here not to understand?

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But that doesn't make any of this 'broken', a 'bug', or 'need fixing'. A person's character is still the property of Turbine. If people don't like it, that's not something Turbine can 'fix'.

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Originally Posted by DarkCntry

Not really...you and I have the exact same rights

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Nope. You don't even have the same rights whether you are located in Texas or in Nevada or Ohio. Each State of the US has its own laws, and so do we.

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Originally Posted by DarkCntry

the issue here is that some believe that their character data is akin to personally identifiable information and that it should be treated as such.
[...]
This isn't a thing of privacy as nothing gathered is private information. The information gathered is bits of data that have nothing to do with your person.

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No. Not "personally identifiable" - but still personally. I agree, that the data belongs to Turbine. But since the time is shown, when the toon did something; in other words when I did something; it is also personally data of me and affecty my privacy. This data belongs to both "sides". Turbine and the customer.

The main problem I see here, is that the US define 'privacy' different from how the EU does.

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Originally Posted by DarkCntry

That's not the problem of Turbine, just like it's not the problem of Turbine how people use the information. If someone abuses it in a fashion that Turbine does police, they will.


But that doesn't make any of this 'broken', a 'bug', or 'need fixing'. A person's character is still the property of Turbine. If people don't like it, that's not something Turbine can 'fix'.

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Noone argues that character data is property of Turbine and noone want to change that.
Still people don't like that mylotro data cannot be made non-viewable to other players ,as current solution is very easily "worked around". Turbine don't want to change that and it is their right to do so as it is their data.

Still most people won't go into details whose data it is , and even if they will they won't care. Clearly alot of people want to be able to prevent other people from seeign their character data , and they will complain even if Turbine will repeadetly say "This is our data and we don't want to change current way we deal with the matter".

Simple.

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Originally Posted by Eltar

2. Every user agreed to the TOC that Turbine can do this with the character's data

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Actually, "we" did not. We being the Codemasters customers. Now that Turbine is taking over however, we're given the choice to give up our account, or accept that Turbine can do whatever the heck they want with our data.

And I say "our data" because in my country, it would be considered "my data" by law, as it can be used to trace what I do online. If I were to tell Turbine to make that data untraceable to me, they would have to comply by making the data inaccessible to others, or by removing the names in that data. I know Dutch law does not apply to a US based service unless they choose to operate in the Netherlands, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Rhyaehar

Actually, "we" did not. We being the Codemasters customers. Now that Turbine is taking over however, we're given the choice to give up our account, or accept that Turbine can do whatever the heck they want with our data.

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Well....let's see, what you have accepted....

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Collection and Use of Information

By using the Codemasters Sites, and agreeing to the terms of this Privacy Policy, the Terms of Service and the End User License Agreement, users consent to Codemasters? collection, use and sharing of user information and data as set out below. Users may instruct Codemasters to remove, change or modify their information held on Codemasters? database by emailing custservice@codemasters.com. Users agree that Codemasters may share with other parties aggregate information and non-identifiable information gathered by Codemasters in the course of the continuing use of Codemasters Sites. "Aggregate information" is information that describes the habits, usage patterns, and demographics of users as a group but does not describe or reveal the identity of any particular user. "Non-identifiable information" is information about a user that is presented in a form distinguishable from information relating to other users but not in a form that personally identifies contact and/or billing information for any user, or enables the recipient to communicate directly with any user unless agreed to by the user in advance of such communication. Aggregate information or non-identifiable information may be used to improve the Codemasters Sites, for internal marketing studies, or simply to collect demographic information about Codemasters? users.

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Uhm...The HUMANCENTiPAD by Southpark anyone?

Do you really now want to discuss, that you did not accept the TOS/TOC/EULA of Turbine but those of Codemasters?
Really?

So come on guys. You don't like what they do with their data but you accepted it, that they can do it? Really, I don't get it.
If I don't want any data to be revealed, I won't allow this anyone. And if I only have the choice between allowing it or not to play this game, I must decide which point is more important to me.
But this decision has to be made.

I really don't see what the big deal is. There's no 'real' data being shared. Your in-game items and traits? A long list of how many skirmishes you've done? What good is this information to anyone? If you're worried about people thinking you play too much, do too many skirmishes or that you dare to wear a Ranger's Token of Battle when you should be wearing Grace, maybe you have other issues beyond MyLotro.

I do agree it's depressing that Creeps will be unveiled to the Freeps when they've managed to keep them a secret so long. The rest looks like complaining for complaining sake.

Now I do like a bit of privacy-complaining. I caused a ruckus at my workplace because they wanted to use the (hideous) photographs taken for our security passes and plaster them all over the website with our full names and work location on them, so any old fool could look us up online. Perhaps if they had a grudge about our customer service level. And they all looked at me, baffled, unable to comprehend why I had a problem with "Beladore Smith, works at the Bree office, here's what she looks like" put on a public site frequented by angry customers without my consent.

So yes, I get it. I like privacy too.

I just don't see how what computerised earrings my pixel character wears in a game, or that I was playing 'til 11.32pm on 2/5/10 is really the same thing.

I remember my uneasiness and all of the forum discussions about this way back when ... don't expect it to change, but people's reactions are understandable.

Having the option to check/uncheck a "public" widget in this case is misleading ... resulting in public relations problems, which is what I really think we have here, rather than a security issue. Lest you misunderstand me, PR problems require attention, too :D

Slight derail: A welcome to all of the Eurogamers who may be new to these forums. Yes, it can get heated at times as opinions are put forth and unpacked, but overall I think you will find this a nice place to spend some time and share information and ideas.

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Originally Posted by Valandir_MUC

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No. Not "personally identifiable" - but still personally. I agree, that the data belongs to Turbine. But since the time is shown, when the toon did something; in other words when I did something; it is also personally data of me and affecty my privacy. This data belongs to both "sides". Turbine and the customer.

The main problem I see here, is that the US define 'privacy' different from how the EU does.

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Now - if I am not totally off - this IS the same way it works for the achievement system with Wow for quite a few years now. I don't have to be logged in and I see the same info.

Why do I keep on thinking you can actually see the time (not only date) here?

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Originally Posted by Eltar

Do you really now want to discuss, that you did not accept the TOS/TOC/EULA of Turbine but those of Codemasters?
Really?

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Do you really want to say they are just the same, even though they are not? Do you really want to state that Codemasters does the exact same, by allowing everyone to randomly pull player data off some webserver? They don't, so.. do you really want to say that?

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So come on guys. You don't like what they do with their data but you accepted it, that they can do it? Really, I don't get it.

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Opt-in probably works different in the US. Or opt-out just doesn't ring a bell at Turbine. I really don't get what the problem is. There are people asking for a complete opt-out. They don't want people to see what and when they play. Not with their name, not without their name attached to the character. What is the problem with adding a checkbox? If you're going to get the character data anyway, an additional field that says "Don't show me" with a resulting error message is added in two minutes.

Apparently, the same discussion was raised when you got MyLOTRO originally. I'm a little surprised to not see such an option. Surely it's been suggested before? Why not spend those few minutes implementing it, saving yourself a whole bunch of complaints on the forums?

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Originally Posted by Beladore

There's no 'real' data being shared.

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It IS 'real' data. The time I did something is 'real'. The whole world can see whether I did a bunch of deeds on a specific day - and that makes it 'real' (and again the (not existing) link to a forum account or person is bypassed so easily, in so many ways, that it (the link) IS there, and that makes the data even more 'real').

All I wish (in this specific point) are a few options(!!) which could be implemented within a few minutes of a capable web-admins time:

• Logs viewable for:
  • The whole world (as it is now)
  • Only logged-in-users (as it currently works for the numeric link)
  • Just my Friends on the MyLOTRO-Social Network
  • Just me

Because I think, most of the users would choose "Just me" in this context, the following options would be more "useful" for the "Social Network":

• View the time/date in my Logs
  • On
  • Off
• View
  • the last 50 entries (like WOW Armory)
  • everything from the beginning

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Originally Posted by Beladore

I just don't see how what computerised earrings my pixel character wears in a game, or that I was playing 'til 11.32pm on 2/5/10 is really the same thing.

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The first thing here has nothing to do with privacy at all (in my opinion). But the latter does a LOT. It's "just" the day, which is published. But the amount of deeds and quests on a day let everyone know, how much I play, which is none of anyones business!
(There's also a difference: It is OK if other players, who are online with me, who I play with, or even those who are stalking me see me ingame. But a logfile, available for the whole world, that's a whole other thing and a huge privacy-breach)

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Originally Posted by Rouven

Now - if I am not totally off - this IS the same way it works for the achievement system with Wow for quite a few years now. I don't have to be logged in and I see the same info.

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Only the lates 50 entries. Not a whole gamer's history within many years.

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Originally Posted by Mellora1

Slight derail: A welcome to all of the Eurogamers who may be new to these forums.

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Thank you very much. :) /kneel /wave

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Originally Posted by Valandir_MUC

All I wish (in this specific point) are a few options(!!) which could be implemented within a few minutes of a capable web-admins time:

• Logs viewable for:
  • The whole world (as it is now)
  • Only logged-in-users (as it currently works for the numeric link)
  • Just my Friends on the MyLOTRO-Social Network
  • Just me

Because I think, most of the users would choose "Just me" in this context, the following options would be more "useful" for the "Social Network":

• View the time/date in my Logs
  • On
  • Off
• View
  • the last 50 entries (like WOW Armory)
  • everything from the beginning

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I agree with all points. If Turbine would create options like this, I don´t think that someone would say something against the network system.

I fully agree with Valandirs post above. I have no problem that anyone can see a "snapshot" of the data of my toons, meaning current stats, items,... I even wouldnt mind a list of completed quests like they are shown in the ingame quest log with no time information at all, even with no sequence showing which deed/quest was completed before the other one. Because this is information that shows me, because I am renting the service Turbine offers and I am doing these deeds with the rented service. If someone wants to stalk my snapshot data it would be possible to create a player profile too, but the log data hands this possibility to anyone on a silver platter.

This log files really make me feel uneasy and it seems that I have to live with it when I want to stay in the game and play with some real good friends (who are friends in the real life too and who know the connection between my characters online and the real person behind). But if there is a possibility for turbine to completely hide the logs from view, so that they arent accessible by everybody, I would really appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by Munitis

Noone argues that character data is property of Turbine and noone want to change that.
Still people don't like that mylotro data cannot be made non-viewable to other players ,as current solution is very easily "worked around". Turbine don't want to change that and it is their right to do so as it is their data.

Still most people won't go into details whose data it is , and even if they will they won't care. Clearly alot of people want to be able to prevent other people from seeign their character data , and they will complain even if Turbine will repeadetly say "This is our data and we don't want to change current way we deal with the matter".

Simple.

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Actually... If you check this article International_Safe_Harbor_Priv acy_Principles on wikipedia you will see that there is more to this.

To be allowed to operate in Europe, Turbine will have to adhere to the safe harbour principles w.r.t. privacy (which means largely abide by European privacy law for European customers).

These principles must provide:

Notice - Individuals must be informed that their data is being collected and about how it will be used.
Choice - Individuals must have the ability to opt out of the collection and forward transfer of the data to third parties.
Onward Transfer - Transfers of data to third parties may only occur to other organizations that follow adequate data protection principles.
Security - Reasonable efforts must be made to prevent loss of collected information.
Data Integrity - Data must be relevant and reliable for the purpose it was collected for.
Access - Individuals must be able to access information held about them, and correct or delete it if it is inaccurate.
Enforcement - There must be effective means of enforcing these rules.

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Originally Posted by avertro

Actually... If you check this article International_Safe_Harbor_Priv acy_Principles on wikipedia you will see that there is more to this.

To be allowed to operate in Europe, Turbine will have to adhere to the safe harbour principles w.r.t. privacy (which means largely abide by European privacy law for European customers).

These principles must provide:

Notice - Individuals must be informed that their data is being collected and about how it will be used.
Choice - Individuals must have the ability to opt out of the collection and forward transfer of the data to third parties.
Onward Transfer - Transfers of data to third parties may only occur to other organizations that follow adequate data protection principles.
Security - Reasonable efforts must be made to prevent loss of collected information.
Data Integrity - Data must be relevant and reliable for the purpose it was collected for.
Access - Individuals must be able to access information held about them, and correct or delete it if it is inaccurate.
Enforcement - There must be effective means of enforcing these rules.

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These principles are for companies in the EU which want to translate datas to companies in the USA. In this case, US companies can (or better: should) certify these principles. It has nothing to do with US companies which offer a service in the EU over the internet.
And so these principles are of no interest for Turbine!

Turbine has already gone through this once when they took over DDO Europe from Codemasters. My.ddo.com works like my.lotro.com in that you can't hide your characters. (And, yes, there are occasional complaints about this.) Turbine is also part of a very large international company Warner Brothers which employs lots of lawyers. So I think it safe to say they know what their responsibilities are.

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Originally Posted by tessathecat

Turbine has already gone through this once when they took over DDO Europe from Codemasters. My.ddo.com works like my.lotro.com in that you can't hide your characters. (And, yes, there are occasional complaints about this.) Turbine is also part of a very large international company Warner Brothers which employs lots of lawyers. So I think it safe to say they know what their responsibilities are.

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there is a big different between my.ddo and my.lotro:

in my.ddo its not possible to find out the char and account-ID(not the forum-account-id). in my.lotro this is no problem.

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Originally Posted by Caranthon

there is a big different between my.ddo and my.lotro:

in my.ddo its not possible to find out the char and account-ID(not the forum-account-id). in my.lotro this is no problem.

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And what good is knowing my account-ID?

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Originally Posted by Reniannen

And what good is knowing my account-ID?

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be able to find out all other chars belonging to you.

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Originally Posted by Caranthon

be able to find out all other chars belonging to you.

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You're welcome to try ;)

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Originally Posted by Reniannen

You're welcome to try ;)

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Is this some naive comment, cause you don´t think it´s possible or do you just don´t care?



In general:
Seriously I´m some kind of irritated, how non-caring US Citizens seem to be about privacy. Great for Companies, no doubt, but it unsettles me.