What's normal, what's an exploit - item swapping for bonuses

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Originally Posted by Lestache

My attitude is more along the lines of, "It's absolutely unrealistic that we can swap the things we do as often as we do." Yes, I realize that arguing for realism in a game based on fantasy fiction isn't exactly working from a position of strength.

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Yes, it is unrealistic, as are so many things in this game. If you were limited to things that are physically possible the game would likely be incredibly dull.

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However, given the disdain you're exhibiting for and broad brush that you're using to paint those who seem to be against gear-swapping, I could be persuaded to rephrase my attitude, perhaps to something like, "I don't feel like I need to gear swap to be good at my class, but I'm glad that the option is there for those who do need that crutch." ;)

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Nothing in this game is hard enough to need to gear swap, but to play at maximum effectiveness some classes rely on it heavily. Champ is not really one of them, the only armour set macro worth using is +7% CB damage.

Anyone can gear swap if they want to, either manually or with the help of some free software. If you choose not to that's fine, but I have yet to see any good reason why that should mean no-one else should be able to (realism is about as tenuous as it can get). Yes, they have a small advantage over you, because they are putting more effort in... Should I start a petition to ban virtues because I don't want to grind them?

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Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

Apologies for writing in big font, but something must be done about this because the idea of gear-swapping is becoming more frequent especially with the arrival of new content and it spoils the fun for everyone when someone swaps gear and contributes towards getting a boss down sooner than expected. What's more worrying about gear-swapping is that those players who do gear-swap would demand more loot from others and would roll on perhaps every loot that would constitute as part of their gear sets which gives another unfair advantage to other players.

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This... just boggles my mind. I mean seriously... what?? Some serious hyperbole and downright silly stuff being said here. I have never, ever heard of a single person ever complain because a boss died sooner than expected (and honestly gear swapping would buy you seconds, not loads of time.) Also people mainly gear swap for set bonuses or legacies, so this paranoia of them wanting ALL THE GEAR! isn't justified.

I don't gear swap. I tried it a bit on Saruman (more dps, less vitality/mitigation jewellery for the easy phases and then stuff for survivability for phase 5) but it was too much of a hassle for me as I'd forget. Even though I don't do it, in no way shape or form do I think that someone who does gear swap have an "unfair" advantage over me. That's nonsense, in my humble opinion.

edit: also the talk about gear swapping not being realistic.. well, neither is summoning a stable full of horses from thin air, "legendary" weapons dropping all over Rohan, instantly porting from one corner of Middle Earth to another... the list could go on. It's a game and people will play it differently. If something feels immersion breaking to you, don't do it and stop worrying about what others are doing.

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Originally Posted by Lestache

I actually have. It wasn't exactly rocket science.

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But I bet some players like to act like it is, like DDO players who go on and on about the importance of optimizing character creation and advancement (given the huge variety of possibilities). Makes them feel 1337.

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Originally Posted by RockX

While it isn't an exploit per-se, I'm not hugely fond of the ability to swap out entire item sets. I feel it can have a negative impact on gameplay and eliminates an aspect of choice when one can simply swap in and out gear to maximize the effect of specific skills. On top of all of that, it leads to the effective loss of a great deal of bag space, which we all know is a huge premium in our game.

The most egregious set bonus offenders, ones which can potentially remain active outside of combat or for very long durations, I attempt to hook up in a manner where you lose the bonus when you unequip the set.

TL;DR: Nope, not an exploit, just creative use of game mechanics which leaves this dev a very sad panda. :(

P.S. You all don't want me to be a sad panda, now do you? ;)

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If you don't like it why don't you stop it? Macro swapping gear makes players much more powerful than they should be. Players that choose to not macro swap have a difficult time competing with players that do. With so many of the new challenge modes being dps races players that don't macro swap are going to be written off as "bad" when compared to those that do.
There are plenty of simple solutions (in concept, though perhaps difficult to code) that would put an end to this. How about giving gear that alters abilities a maximum level requirement ( e.g. level 75 gear can't be used past level 84), or making it so that the set bonuses are disabled beyond a certain level? How about making it so that the PvMP sets can't be worn outside of monster play? How about making it so that gear can't be changed during combat? How about making it so that changing gear locks all skills for a period of 5-15 seconds? Any and all of these resemble technology that already exists in game and are far from impossible to implement.
If it is not what you want, fix it! Simply asking players to stop doing it is going to accomplish nothing.

Just read the thread, and thought I'd offer my 2 penn'orth.

At the moment, I don't gear swap in terms of armour during combat, for me it is too unrealistic and won't do it, which is fine for me. If my kin say I can't go on raids or whatever as a result I'd need to think about what I do, but thats my choice about how I game.

I have no issue with swopping of weapons during combat, earlier posters have observed they have diffeent weapons for different mobs - makes sense, sometimes it might be best to use a dagger, other times a club and others 2 swords.

A number of posters have said they use specific gear for particular circumstances - frost mitigating cloak in helegrod - I'd happily do that before combat no issue there in my view, I have a high mitigation cloak I'll put on if we're going up against high tactical mobs.

The guy who swopped into a stealth cloak when things were getting hairy in a mob camp makes perfect sense.

Using one set of LI's for pre-combat buffing, then switching for combat again makes perfect sense.

One change I do make sometimes is between DPS and Tank on my champ - this is situational, I may be DPS, tank goes down for some reason (or needs major attention) and I have to fill the gap for a bit, I may change weapon and/or fervour for glory,but this is in response to the situation I am in. I won't swop my 3+3 Hytbold for 6 martial champion though, for me thats too much.

If you do, fine, your choice, I won't worry so long as it doesn't really impact me, if it does I may say something but outside of that fair enough.

What I would like to see is gear bags, they have armour, jewelry and pocket slots (but not weapon/tool/class slots) and out of combat you can switch every item in a gear bag for your current set up - empty slots in the gear bag leave what you are wearing on you.

How about if there was an induction when you change an item. Let's say a weapon takes 0.2 seconds to sheath. New one takes 0.1 to unsheathe. During that time you are unarmed. Your attacks have to begin anew when you equip the new weapon (you lose time).
Same with armor. Gloves take 0.5 sec to take off. New boots take 0.5 sec to put on. Boots take 1 sec to remove, 1.5 sec for new ones. During all this time you are not getting the benefit of either item. Torso armor should take the most. Maybe make this an item stat, visible and different for different items of the same slot.
That's more realistic.

For some classes i really see the point in not allowing gear and weapon swapping. But when you play a runekeeper, somethimes you have to swap your entire gear. Mostly i play a dd runekeeper because for healing purpose i play my ministrel. But their situations, like durchest in the later phase, where addidional healing is necessary and i have to heal. So with my damage runestone and satchel i will not be a great help for the mainhealers, so i swap to the healing set and heal satchel and heal stone.
Its also the class understanding - a runekeeper have its attunement and for every side of their attunement their a sets and weapons. Its also in the descriptions of the class - that a runekeeper can heal or do damage when it is necessary - but how should i do it the best way wihtout swapping my gear???

I dont care. I dont swap because I am lazy to incorporate macro keys in hand movement I am used to. I might have done it when I first stared playing, I used macros a lot in WoW, but I didnt have a gaming keyboard back then and the entire swapping idea felt so clumsy in LotRO I just dropped it.
I did use the weapons swap in AoC but they had it implemented in game with a single key press already.

So why bother? I can play all I want without it.

I followed a link from another thread to get here.

Let me explain why I think some ARMOR swapping in-combat is distasteful to me. The simplest and most straightforward reasons: reality. I cannot conceive of any legitimate fighter tossing off a tunic and putting on a heavy piece of chain mail in the middle of a battle. One exception might be if a mob is CC'd for a specified amount of time; however, that would then lend advantage to the CC classes and would not be feasible to implement.


HOWEVER, I have a lot of reasons why I think JEWELRY and WEAPON swapping mid-combat is not only appropriate and feasible - but even realistic. Among the most straightforward are these:

1. Players who have played longer, run more instances, and/or been smarter in their auction hall economics can and should have more access to better gear. It is appropriate their time and energies have some type of in-game reward. Among those rewards is legitimately the opportunity to have more tools at their disposal during a fight. I can legitimately see a situation where a hat or a set of gloves could realistically be swapped mid-combat, even if real lift. I cannot see switching out pants or other body gear.
2. Movies often include as parts of their fighting times when opponents grab alternate weapons to enhance their chances during a fight. For instance, they might have a knife tucked in a boot or a pick holding their hair together inconspicuously or a gun hidden in a holster behind their back. They readily swap back and forth between weapons as the situation demands. If you can carry it, it should be available to you. Obviously, any weapon you were not smart enough to bring along and left in your vault is not going to be an option. Or, if you sold a particular weapon on the AH or at the vendor, you cannot use it. That is as it should be.

In addition, I would argue allowing weapon/jewelry/some gear to be swapped just enhances the complexity of a battle. In other words, it makes it more likely true skill could be rewarded. Whereas, simplifying combat creates devolution, meaning less incentive to strive for items in-game, removing the drive to actually play a variety of content. I have loved that as levels increase, there are more points available to be divided up when a weapon or piece of jewelry or armor is devised. For instance, one ring has 150 will, 35 fate, and extra morale. Another has 77 vitality, 35 fate, and 35 will, with critical defense. In the end, the numbers of bag slots someone has is a natural barrier to the total number of items anyone can carry at any one time. So there is a built-in ceiling to how much variety any character has at his disposal. But, the current system allows players a lot of leeway in gameplay. I personally LIKE the complexity. It is one of the things that makes this game a standout in terms of gameplay. I have played various MMOs since the mid1990s. Never had I played on longer than 6-12 months until Lord of the Rings came along. I have played this approximately four years, and every day, I learn something new about my character, about gameplay, about another nuance. I love that about the game. That is what has kept me coming back. It is why I have kept up my VIP status since I joined the game. But, remove the challenge.... pigeonhole me..... make it so a new player who has played 2 months can do all the exact same things as me, then I daresay, I shall leave this game and try again to find another. Skill and time played should be rewarded, directly or indirectly. And, continuing to allow gear-swapping is an indirect means of achieving that end.