I am here to PROTEST against the NUTS grinds of the game

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Originally Posted by DiogoVP

I thought this game was supposed to be fun and not a second job (it actually seems like a main job if you ask me).

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Nobody forces you to play the game so hard to the point it feels like a "job".
I, for one, play for fun and for the story.
If it starts to feel like a job, I will quit playing.
Yea, I occasionally find myself grinding out slayer deeds and getting bored, but then I remind myself that I'm not being forced to do these and I go do something else.

I understand people's desire to be "the best", but if it's at the cost of getting any joy out of the game, it's just not worth it.

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Originally Posted by Hurin

It's probably no accident that the Imbuement system with its exponentially, constantly increasing grind was introduced at just about the same time that they were deciding that level cap increases weren't in our foreseeable future.

"Hey everyone! Thanks to this exponentially grindier system, you won't have to dismantle your LIs the next time your character levels up! Oh, and also, your characters won't be leveling up anymore."

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Blame our fellow players for the lack of level cap increases. Turbine was set to add another 5, when a number of folks started complaining about it. One complaint in particular was that they didn't want to have to destroy their level 100 LI just to build the same one at 105 (like we all did with each level cap increase).

That destroy-your-old-LI-and-craft-a-new one is the "LI grind" that was reduced or eliminated by the imbuement system. ILIs are an alternative advancement system, so the tier caps on the legs better go up with time (since our character levels are stuck).

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Originally Posted by EB64

Nobody forces you to play the game so hard to the point it feels like a "job".
I, for one, play for fun and for the story.
If it starts to feel like a job, I will quit playing.
Yea, I occasionally find myself grinding out slayer deeds and getting bored, but then I remind myself that I'm not being forced to do these and I go do something else.

I understand people's desire to be "the best", but if it's at the cost of getting any joy out of the game, it's just not worth it.

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No, I have a life thankfully and I am not putting myself through that and won't. In case you haven't seen my previous posted, I have stated that I had the pro-active actions to start this thread for its community. People are losing their love of the game because of things like this. This is destroying the game and I as a player cannot accept this silently. I said the game looks like a job atm, but I don't play it as if it were my second job, I play as an escape from real world, to have fun and forget things, do something challenging, not to do an easy instance for 600 hours.
If people want to do instances like sammy a thousand times, maybe they should re-evaluate their time spent on LOTRO. Maybe they're playing more than what's considered healthy. Seriously, there are so many more things to life than just a game and you want to spend the free time you have to play LOTRO doing instances like Sammy when you could do something more interesting in the game? This is a joke.

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

Blame our fellow players for the lack of level cap increases. Turbine was set to add another 5, when a number of folks started complaining about it. One complaint in particular was that they didn't want to have to destroy their level 100 LI just to build the same one at 105 (like we all did with each level cap increase).

That destroy-your-old-LI-and-craft-a-new one is the "LI grind" that was reduced or eliminated by the imbuement system. ILIs are an alternative advancement system, so the tier caps on the legs better go up with time (since our character levels are stuck).

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I'm well aware that they canceled that last level cap increase. That, in and of itself, was not a bad thing. But I sure hope you don't believe that they had further level cap increases planned and instead abandoned those at that very moment, and instead quickly developed and released the imbuement system.

And, most of all, I certainly hope that you don't think that the current LI system is less "grindy" than the prior one. Whether LIs are "destroyed" or not, the imbuement system is already well beyond the prior LI system in time and effort required (or, conveniently, you can just buy the hundreds of scrolls you'll need at the Store!). And it will only get worse. And, if the last update is any indication, it will get worse at an ever-increasing pace.

--H

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Originally Posted by EB64

Nobody forces you to play the game so hard to the point it feels like a "job".
I, for one, play for fun and for the story.
If it starts to feel like a job, I will quit playing.
Yea, I occasionally find myself grinding out slayer deeds and getting bored, but then I remind myself that I'm not being forced to do these and I go do something else.

I understand people's desire to be "the best", but if it's at the cost of getting any joy out of the game, it's just not worth it.

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It's sort of sad to me that you come close to an epiphany there with the last sentence. But then you apparently just stopped cold.

Can I also protest?

I wanna protest the lack of unicorns in my house :P

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Originally Posted by Denebrian_Wintersong

If you want something given to you, maybe go play a console game?

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That is not what any of us have actually said here!

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Originally Posted by Spilo

One problem does not justify another. Turbine's disregard for end-game content and PvP is a major issue. In addition, as I've said before, it's ironic that Turbine doesn't care about raiding and PvP- the one type of content where top line gear/grind is necessary.

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To be completely honest, I pay my sub for PvP. At one point, I do believe that PvP was once one of Turbines big money makers. Turbine has been promising a good PvP update (especially for creeps) for ages now. What do we get? Creep cosmetics, mailbox, and a Osgiliath map (which no one uses anymore unless they want to camp at the doors of each side.) Which, IMHO, was a complete waste of time and resources.

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Originally Posted by Denebrian_Wintersong

MMOs are meant for longevity, not weekend flash and done.

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That is true, however, as a business, they rely on their customers. If they do not keep their customers happy, Turbine will lose customers and money. That will be an issue for their “longevity.”

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Originally Posted by Vilan

Why is anyone grinding? You don't need maxed out LIs for any content (PvE anyway, maybe PvP does, not real familiar with that). You don't even need imbued LIs at all. You don't need essence gear... if you want it, you can craft some up, buy some cheap green/purple essences on the AH (or go to the skirm camp and buy some 95 purples for 500 marks each) and be in perfectly good shape for anything. Virtues aren't that big of a deal, a few essences will give you as much bonus as a full set of 19 virtues.

If you WANT to be maxed out and show everybody how l33t you are, that's a different thing. You have the option to do so. But just because the option to grind to the max exists doesn't mean you have to take it.

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I can only assume by this comment that your LI's are aren’t maxed, that you just slapped on some legacies and just went on your merry way? You don’t need nor care for the increased stats or decreased CD times for some skills that the legacies can give for some classes? I am assuming that you don't have essence gear with either greater or supreme essences? I mean, none of us really need them right?

Some of us actually want to max out our LI's and have good essence gear to more effectively play the class that we are playing. Not because we want to show people how “l33t” we are.

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Originally Posted by Denebrian_Wintersong

I am not defending Turbine.

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Seems like you are!

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Originally Posted by Denebrian_Wintersong

You choose not to pay but want Turbine to make it easier to do it for free? Turbine is in business to make money. They lose too much money, we all lose this game. Want that?

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I will say this, even though Diogo has said it numerous times. None of us are wanting to get anything free. In fact, grind is perfectly fine. But a more reasonable, more balance amount of grind is what we would prefer.
Yes, Turbine is in business to make money, BUT there are more effective ways of making money than making the grind so high that they hope that we will break down and buy the scrolls or crystals that we need. Also, as I said before, lose so many customers, and they also lose money.

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

Ironically, the initial cost for ASEs and ASCs in terms of SOMs were less than half of what they are now. But some folks complained that this made acquiring them too easy, so the prices got jacked up for Live.
As this thread shows, at least a substantial part of the "grind" affliction is self-inflicted.

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Sad, but true. I do honestly believe that they would have made it higher without people QQing about how low the price was. We will never really know now.

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Originally Posted by Hurin

It would be nice if those with the "you're just lazy" or "you just want it all and want it now" attitudes would actually think outside their myopic little boxes.

There are a lot of players who are fully willing to do immense amounts of grind to achieve everything in the game. . . if they feel those grinds are in the game for the right reasons. That's the way we played the game in the subscription era. And back then, I was right there (though few of those currently in the peanut gallery now were there with me) telling people to either suck it up and do what's required, or do without the reward.

The problem is that when a game starts selling "grind avoidance" to its players, nobody can ever be sure if a grind is in the game --or is as egregious as it is-- because good game design called for it, or because they realize that a lot of people who don't value earning what they get will just hand over cash instead. Thus, the grinds are artificially greater than they "should" be and are ever-increasing relative to where they otherwise would be in a game that didn't have such perverse incentives and conflicts of interest.

Put another way: People don't object to the grinds per se. They object to the perception that the grinds are worse than they otherwise would be because Turbine makes money directly off of making the game more grindy than it otherwise would be.

There are people here who have done every grind in the game. They have demonstrated their willingness to do the work necessary to earn their rewards. But even they are now looking at how the game systems are progressing and pointing out that this is egregious and falling far outside what was considered reasonable when sound game design and compelling gameplay was the prime consideration in adjusting the level of grind.

It's not surprising that those who willfully hand over their money to avoid parts of the game and have rewards handed to them ex nihilo (how is that different than cheating again? Except where you pay money for it?), thus incentivizing the creation of even more content that they dislike and will pay to avoid, aren't able to think beyond their own short-sighted experience, playstyle, and goals. But it's a shame that they have to so obtusely and ignorantly poop all over valid points founded in far more depth than they are willing to consider.

--H

P.S. And I didn't even take a moment to lambast the ridiculous "false choice" already making its appearance: "They have to do this or we'll never make it to Mordor! They're business! They have to do this or the game ends!" That ridiculous logic has been used to justify every game-integrity-undermining decision since store-exclusive relics. When will you folks give it a rest?

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Say what you mean, and stop playing these juvenile games.

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I said what I meant. And I've been saying what I mean. Most recently in this latter case, it's sad to me that he just described exactly why so many people are despairing of this game and moving on, but he does not realize it because his solution is to change what we look for in a game:

"I understand people's desire to be "the best", but if it's at the cost of getting any joy out of the game, it's just not worth it."

. . . and I have said that already in this thread. Multiple times in fact. And you've said nearly the same thing.

Perhaps the more "juvenile" behavior is this sudden outburst on your part. Do you really want to go around with me yet again? It has never, ever worked out well for you (which is likely why you're bizarrely lashing out here so inappropriately). And since we're largely in agreement within this context, it would be a shame to go at each other yet again to no purpose.

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Originally Posted by spelunker

Perhaps another way to put this is to compare the current 'grind' with past expansions.

In the past, LIs required (roughly):
1 Scroll of Delving
21 Scroll's of empowerment to max all legacies (assuming everything was at t3-t4 after leveling, which is reasonable)
3 Star-lits (once these were added to the game).

I don't think the time it takes to earn a SoE is drastically different from what it was in the past, perhaps slightly quicker though.

So the LI grind has roughly quadrupled compared to the past.

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Sorry, I have to give you a yellow card for this due to unsportsmanlike conduct. :)

1. First, multiply the above by 5 or 10. Because that's how many times many of us repeated that same destroy-the-old-LI-and-build-a-new one routine. THAT was the LI grind that Turbine responded to, and eliminated, with ILIs.

2. Second, let's not forget other aspects of the old LI grind that you don't list above. Relic Removal Scroll. Crystal of Remembrance. The cost to buy a new Second Age or First Age symbol (or both). The cost for a new title scroll. The relic grind to get the new top-end relics. The LI-to-30 farming to get the higher level legacies to put on your replacement LI. And then multiply all that by 5 or 10, for each LI you constructed under the old system.


This last update, I had to do none of that. No relics to be removed. No SA or FA symbols. No titles to replace. No legacies to replace.

Instead, I got to keep the exact same ILI I had prior to the update, but I got to make it better.

Yes, that improvement requires a number of scrolls and crystals. But that's because 8 or 9 tiers were added to each legacy. That's like building 3 old LIs, which would require just about the same number of crystals and scrolls as we're needing now (not even counting the scrolls of delving, etc.).

Has it been so long that people really have forgotten the pain of the old LI system? Count your blessings.

I agree that the grind to get the maximum gear on a character is fairly high..... however, if you can get your character Dol Amroth slotted gear (which can be done in about 10 days if you have only one level 100, faster if you have multiple as the tokens are transferable), and run around 15-ish big battles, you can get the teal jewelry sets for your class.... plus probably the 2 symbols to make the first age LI's.... and you really should be ready to participate in anything.

I have learned a long time ago, even before the 40-day Hytbold grind, that you don't HAVE to have your characters geared to the best level currently available. The Dol Amroth level 100 slotted gear with teal essences and teal jewelry kits is pretty much perfect, and allows your character to survive most groups, including T2 instances if you have a decent healer.

In other words: You don't have to have the best of the best for every character. I think the reason they did this, is that there is always something more to strive for while keeping the level at 100. Is it the best way? Probably not..... but I believe they should have been slower with the level raising anyways, 5 levels per expansion, not 10. We would have been at level 70 after Isengard, 75 in Rohan, 80 in Helms Deep, 85 in Gondor, and maybe 90 by the time we got to Minas Irith, and perhaps 95 in the next 2 zones and 100 by the time we reach mordor. But that is just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Hurin

I'm well aware that they canceled that last level cap increase. That, in and of itself, was not a bad thing. But I sure hope you don't believe that they had further level cap increases planned and instead abandoned those at that very moment, and instead quickly developed and released the imbuement system.

And, most of all, I certainly hope that you don't think that the current LI system is less "grindy" than the prior one. Whether LIs are "destroyed" or not, the imbuement system is already well beyond the prior LI system in time and effort required (or, conveniently, you can just buy the hundreds of scrolls you'll need at the Store!). And it will only get worse. And, if the last update is any indication, it will get worse at an ever-increasing pace.

--H

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I certainly think the ILI system is less grindy than what we had before. It's worlds better. See my post just above in case you've forgotten what it was like. The grind to get crystals and scrolls of empowerment is, at worst, no worse than it was before on a per unit basis. In fact, I'd argue that it is better. Just remember that the tier increase this last update is effectively equivalent to building 3 LIs under the old system. If there's any legitimate complaint to be made, it's that Turbine dumped 9 additional tiers per legacy on us at one time, instead of 3 or 4. Personally, I like having the 9 additional tiers this update (as compared to spreading it out over the next year in dribs and drabs).

As far as the aborted level cap increase, I was fine with postponing it. It would have followed up too quickly after the last increase, and I do agree that increases do need to come at a measured pace to effectively give players a chance to play at the current level cap before moving onwards.

I know the ILI system was in the works beforehand, and if you read some of the Dev Team statements at the time, it was clear that the complaints about the LI-destroy-and-replace grind were taken to heart, and the next level cap increase taken off the table until the ILI system was put into place. Ironically, while the complaint before was that our LIs didn't grow with us, now our ILIs are growing without us.

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

Sorry, I have to give you a yellow card for this due to unsportsmanlike conduct. :)

1. First, multiply the above by 5 or 10. Because that's how many times many of us repeated that same destroy-the-old-LI-and-build-a-new one routine. THAT was the LI grind that Turbine responded to, and eliminated, with ILIs.

2. Second, let's not forget other aspects of the old LI grind that you don't list above. Relic Removal Scroll. Crystal of Remembrance. The cost to buy a new Second Age or First Age symbol (or both). The cost for a new title scroll. The relic grind to get the new top-end relics. The LI-to-30 farming to get the higher level legacies to put on your replacement LI. And then multiply all that by 5 or 10, for each LI you constructed under the old system.


This last update, I had to do none of that. No relics to be removed. No SA or FA symbols. No titles to replace. No legacies to replace.

Instead, I got to keep the exact same ILI I had prior to the update, but I got to make it better.

Yes, that improvement requires a number of scrolls and crystals. But that's because 8 or 9 tiers were added to each legacy. That's like building 3 old LIs, which would require just about the same number of crystals and scrolls as we're needing now (not even counting the scrolls of delving, etc.).

Has it been so long that people really have forgotten the pain of the old LI system? Count your blessings.

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oh dear. FA symbols are in fact so much common that it wouldn't make any difference. Why would I want to remove my relics? Isn't each update/expansions supposed to bring new/better relics? I'd just remove them to refine and get a few shards? To be frank, that's pretty ridiculous. LI titles can be easilly acquired too, you can get both titles for your LIs in a day. You just need to do quests from the current region and you'll have enough tokens to buy 6 titles and more. PFFT
Replacing legacies are also a thing you can do in what, 2 hours? That's the amount of time I spent on each of my toons to get their legacies right.
I think you're not discerning things very well here.

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Originally Posted by maartena

I agree that the grind to get the maximum gear on a character is fairly high..... however, if you can get your character Dol Amroth slotted gear (which can be done in about 10 days if you have only one level 100, faster if you have multiple as the tokens are transferable), and run around 15-ish big battles, you can get the teal jewelry sets for your class.... plus probably the 2 symbols to make the first age LI's.... and you really should be ready to participate in anything.

I have learned a long time ago, even before the 40-day Hytbold grind, that you don't HAVE to have your characters geared to the best level currently available. The Dol Amroth level 100 slotted gear with teal essences and teal jewelry kits is pretty much perfect, and allows your character to survive most groups, including T2 instances if you have a decent healer.

In other words: You don't have to have the best of the best for every character. I think the reason they did this, is that there is always something more to strive for while keeping the level at 100. Is it the best way? Probably not..... but I believe they should have been slower with the level raising anyways, 5 levels per expansion, not 10. We would have been at level 70 after Isengard, 75 in Rohan, 80 in Helms Deep, 85 in Gondor, and maybe 90 by the time we got to Minas Irith, and perhaps 95 in the next 2 zones and 100 by the time we reach mordor. But that is just my opinion.

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Actually DA, osgiliath, you name it grind isnt unreasonable. Originally 24 day grind to get armor, 5-7min per day is hardly a grind when you compare it to system that was clearly designed to be store driven system from ground up. 250+ BBs for one LI. No matter if we need or must get them, just to have that system in the game is cancerous and I dont see how anyone can be proud of the system that is clearly exploiting their customers. And as said in this thread, for many of us maximizing our gear potential was big part of the game and now it's at the point where people who enjoyed that part od the game juat cant be bothered because one can have just so much free time for a game, even if you would play 12h per day grinding BBs, it would take months to get enough stars to kit few alts fully out that was totally reasonably done before imbuing system in few nights.

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

Ironically, while the complaint before was that our LIs didn't grow with us, now our ILIs are growing without us.

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No the complaint was about the grind, specially since they were considering to raise the level cap only a few months after they raised it to level 100, so of course people wouldn't accept to grind another LI is such a small amount of time.
If you read the imbuement dev diary, they say it pretty clearly that the imbuement was designed to decrease the grind we had prior its release. In fact it increased the grind 4x and we're only on U17. I can't wait until U18 and U19 when half of my toons are behind schedule and the grind is like 10x more than it used to be.... it will be so so sad seeing all players leaving. And I wonder what you guys will have to say then.

This is a very timely thread for me, as today I was about to embark on my daily routine of DA, MT, Osgiliath, and BBs in order to build up currency for scrolls, when I just couldn't drag myself to do it. The same stuff day after day has finally reached the tipping point for me. I have only played one character through each and every quest in the game. I have alts for each profession that I've only used to max crafting so I can equip my main character. Most people have talked about how the grind has discouraged them from playing their alts, as the time commitment is too much. I can understand this. For me, the grind actually had the opposite effect. Rather than run the same set of dailies for the umpteenth time, I decided to actually play a little bit on one of my alts. I found it had been so long since I'd done the epic story, I couldn't even remember what happened to Horn and Nona. I played for 4 hours just doing the epic quests in Eriador. It was actually very enjoyable. It made me remember how much fun I'd had the first time on my main. It was such a night and day experience to the end game. I'm so glad I took my time and didn't rush to end game like so many do.

The problems I see with the current grind is that it is all centered on empowerment scrolls. There only a few ways to obtain these, so people get burnt out. Prior to imbuement, you could run a wide range of content to get the shards, symbols, crystals, etc. that you needed. There will always be grind, but what we have now is the missionary position of grinding. ;)

It has been mentioned that you don't need maxed out stats and LIs to play the content. This is true, but are we certain it will stay that way? We are only two updates into imbuement and already players are throwing up their hands and giving up because the numbers are so high. Is content still going to be easy 3 updates from now when we're hundreds of scrolls behind the max? Maybe, maybe not.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

The issue isn't so much with the LIs, but it's the devs complete inability to make gear that people want reasonably attainable from places that make sense that has made us so fearful of level cap increases. The essence system sounded good initially, but they never made the essence acquirement sane, and I doubt Turbine ever will. Until the hardest part of the essence system is acquiring the frames (NOT the essences), it's going to make us fear level cap as completely wiping everything on the character is about as close to a char delete as you can get due to the time invested in getting the gear to that point.

When it makes more sense to buy the missing pieces than it is to waste time (especially for someone who's timebound), then there's something very wrong with the game.

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I'm actually 180 degrees opposite on the frame/essence issue. The frame should be the easiest thing to get (e.g., DA 4 slot armor), while the essences are the core of the armor and should be the most difficult part to get. Admittedly, Turbine seemed to use this approach to start (with easy-to-get 4-slot DA frames), attempted to ride both horses at the same time (by making the bare 5 slot frames so hard to get), and then moved back with the introduction of the 3-slot frames. The difference in frames, in any event, is marginal, and can be overcome by the quality of the essences. Consider what 5-slot frames with only major essences would be like.

In any event, I don't see why essence armor makes you fear a level cap increase. With previous level cap increases, we quickly replace our previous BIS wholesale with purple items, thus effectively wiping everything on the character. And we'd then have to take a good bit of time to get the new BIS. With essences, we at least can remove the essences we worked so hard to get and use them in a new, higher level frame. Thus, we effectively are better off than we would be under previous level cap increases.

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Originally Posted by DiogoVP

No the complaint was about the grind, specially since they were considering to raise the level cap only a few months after they raised it to level 100, so of course people wouldn't accept to grind another LI is such a small amount of time.
If you read the imbuement dev diary, they say it pretty clearly that the imbuement was designed to decrease the grind we had prior its release. In fact it increased the grind 4x and we're only on U17. I can't wait until U18 and U19 when half of my toons are behind schedule and the grind is like 10x more than it used to be.... it will be so so sad seeing all players leaving. And I wonder what you guys will have to say then.

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I laughed at that dev diary claiming to decrease the grind for the new LI's.
I for one dread when and if they actually do raise level cap. I wonder how much they will increase legacy tiers then? Another 10 - 12 tiers?

I would actually like to set some of the devs down, give them some level 100 toons. No gear, no essences, no marks or meds, no gold, no nothing. Let them completely grind it out and see what they think about what they have done. I wonder if it would actually change their opinions on the amount of grind then.

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Originally Posted by maartena

I agree that the grind to get the maximum gear on a character is fairly high..... however, if you can get your character Dol Amroth slotted gear (which can be done in about 10 days if you have only one level 100, faster if you have multiple as the tokens are transferable), and run around 15-ish big battles, you can get the teal jewelry sets for your class.... plus probably the 2 symbols to make the first age LI's.... and you really should be ready to participate in anything.

I have learned a long time ago, even before the 40-day Hytbold grind, that you don't HAVE to have your characters geared to the best level currently available. The Dol Amroth level 100 slotted gear with teal essences and teal jewelry kits is pretty much perfect, and allows your character to survive most groups, including T2 instances if you have a decent healer.

In other words: You don't have to have the best of the best for every character. I think the reason they did this, is that there is always something more to strive for while keeping the level at 100. Is it the best way? Probably not..... but I believe they should have been slower with the level raising anyways, 5 levels per expansion, not 10. We would have been at level 70 after Isengard, 75 in Rohan, 80 in Helms Deep, 85 in Gondor, and maybe 90 by the time we got to Minas Irith, and perhaps 95 in the next 2 zones and 100 by the time we reach mordor. But that is just my opinion.

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LOL

First: the best of the best should be obtained by doing challenging content, not doing mediocre instances like sammy literally a thousand times. Best of the best should be obtained by the best players that earn it for being good, not for players that do not have life and too much time to play. Let's be honest here, the fact that you're (I am not talking about you specifically, but people in the forum generally) in the forums means that you're probably a little more addicted to the game and you have a lot of time to play. But this is not what the general player base thinks, the majority of players do agree that this time things have derailed.
Again, it's playstyle. Many people's playstyle is to play alts seriously. Unfortunely now they will have to be selective about the characters they are going gear up and eventually getting annoyed then finally QUIT.
That's what you guys want, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

I certainly think the ILI system is less grindy than what we had before. It's worlds better. See my post just above in case you've forgotten what it was like. The grind to get crystals and scrolls of empowerment is, at worst, no worse than it was before on a per unit basis. In fact, I'd argue that it is better. Just remember that the tier increase this last update is effectively equivalent to building 3 LIs under the old system. If there's any legitimate complaint to be made, it's that Turbine dumped 9 additional tiers per legacy on us at one time, instead of 3 or 4. Personally, I like having the 9 additional tiers this update (as compared to spreading it out over the next year in dribs and drabs).

As far as the aborted level cap increase, I was fine with postponing it. It would have followed up too quickly after the last increase, and I do agree that increases do need to come at a measured pace to effectively give players a chance to play at the current level cap before moving onwards.

I know the ILI system was in the works beforehand, and if you read some of the Dev Team statements at the time, it was clear that the complaints about the LI-destroy-and-replace grind were taken to heart, and the next level cap increase taken off the table until the ILI system was put into place. Ironically, while the complaint before was that our LIs didn't grow with us, now our ILIs are growing without us.

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What? How you explain I managed to fully upgrade my first agers after getting one on each level cap in few nights ever since 65 cap (moria was ### in this regards), only now I simply dont have time nor will to do 10x the content than I had to do before in order to get first ager and fully max it. I would also point out that only people who were clueless how system should work and worked only demanded new LI system. Only complaint people like me had since RoI was that first agers were handed out like candies for various reasons and progression from 3->2->1st ager was taken away from the game (went straight from 1st ager to first ager ever since 85 cap). Old system was perfect, you needed new LI on each level cap, first you got 3rd or 2nd ager, upgraded it in order to do harder content then eventually EARNED first ager which had real difference on stats. After that you spend few nights doing instances if you didnt have already currency to upgrade them and then you were done. This utilized crafting, instances, solo play, etc. That was perfect.

Add my name to the list of people who are over the grind. This update has been the worst for me as it seems so pointless. Even the Hybold rebuilt felt more of an achievement then this, because you could see physical progress as each new building was constructed.

I have decided to take a break from the game as of last weekend. The last few weeks I had been logging on only to grind out dailies/BB or skirmishes simply to level my legendary. It stop being fun and I noticed I would log on in a happy mood, then after a hour or two of LOTRO gaming I would log off feeling frustrated and down. Not my idea of escaping when my in game problems are worst then my real life ones.

I only have 3 legendaries on my main and 2 on an alt to grind out. I cant imagine how those with 8 plus alts cope.

But it is simply too much so I cancelled my sub before it came up for renewing this week. I will be back next year with the next update, but for now there is no point for myself to log on

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Originally Posted by DiogoVP

No the complaint was about the grind, specially since they were considering to raise the level cap only a few months after they raised it to level 100, so of course people wouldn't accept to grind another LI is such a small amount of time.
If you read the imbuement dev diary, they say it pretty clearly that the imbuement was designed to decrease the grind we had prior its release. In fact it increased the grind 4x and we're only on U17. I can't wait until U18 and U19 when half of my toons are behind schedule and the grind is like 10x more than it used to be.... it will be so so sad seeing all players leaving. And I wonder what you guys will have to say then.

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I suggest reading the dev diary more carefully. The grind that the imbuement system was designed to reduce was the destroy-and-craft grind of replacing our LIs with each level increase. There was never any promise or indication that there would be no grind associated with ILIs. That is wishful thinking on your part, I believe.

In any event, the grind clearly is less, because so much of the old LI system has been eliminated, and the cost to increase a legacy tier is the same, at most. The problem is that Turbine dumped 9 additional tiers for each legacy on us at once, which is the equivalent, in tier terms, of constructing 3 or so old LIs.

I imagine that some folks could digest this better if those tiers were introduced in sets of 3 every 3 months or so (at time 0, 3 months, and 6 months). Personally, I'd rather have the 9 tiers up front, because I can get them all up now and gain the benefit for most of the ensuing 6 month period. The actual effort involved is the same in either case, but I suppose it depends on individual perceptions (and perception is key to whether or not something feels like a grind). The former would find the grind more acceptable if split into smaller chunks over a period of time. I find the grind more acceptable if I can focus on it and get it out of the way relatively quickly (which I have), and thus have 5+ months of playing without worrying about that particular grind.

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Originally Posted by snakeeyes00

Add my name to the list of people who are over the grind. This update has been the worst for me as it seems so pointless. Even the Hybold rebuilt felt more of an achievement then this, because you could see physical progress as each new building was constructed.

I have decided to take a break from the game as of last weekend. The last few weeks I had been logging on only to grind out dailies/BB or skirmishes simply to level my legendary. It stop being fun and I noticed I would log on in a happy mood, then after a hour or two of LOTRO gaming I would log off feeling frustrated and down. Not my idea of escaping when my in game problems are worst then my real life ones.

I only have 3 legendaries on my main and 2 on an alt to grind out. I cant imagine how those with 8 plus alts cope.

But it is simply too much so I cancelled my sub before it came up for renewing this week. I will be back next year with the next update, but for now there is no point for myself to log on

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You're not the first that came here on this thread to say that you're taking a break of the game because of this unrealistic grind.
Now we have the proof that this is actually driving the players away. Only a few weeks after U17 and many people are leaving already. Isn't that strange?
Oh yes, it's strange for me.
If you think that this grind is not an issue, it's time to wake up.

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

Sorry, I have to give you a yellow card for this due to unsportsmanlike conduct. :)

1. First, multiply the above by 5 or 10. Because that's how many times many of us repeated that same destroy-the-old-LI-and-build-a-new one routine. THAT was the LI grind that Turbine responded to, and eliminated, with ILIs.

2. Second, let's not forget other aspects of the old LI grind that you don't list above. Relic Removal Scroll. Crystal of Remembrance. The cost to buy a new Second Age or First Age symbol (or both). The cost for a new title scroll. The relic grind to get the new top-end relics. The LI-to-30 farming to get the higher level legacies to put on your replacement LI. And then multiply all that by 5 or 10, for each LI you constructed under the old system.


This last update, I had to do none of that. No relics to be removed. No SA or FA symbols. No titles to replace. No legacies to replace.

Instead, I got to keep the exact same ILI I had prior to the update, but I got to make it better.

Yes, that improvement requires a number of scrolls and crystals. But that's because 8 or 9 tiers were added to each legacy. That's like building 3 old LIs, which would require just about the same number of crystals and scrolls as we're needing now (not even counting the scrolls of delving, etc.).

Has it been so long that people really have forgotten the pain of the old LI system? Count your blessings.

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You're right, that post was unsportsmanlike as I left out a number of things.
Along with what DiogoVP said:
How many times will the legacy tier cap be raised, so I can add that into my grind calculations for ILIs? We just had a cap raise, which didn't coincide with a raise in level cap, how many times did we 'have' to grind out more emp scrolls mid-expansion with the traditional LIs? This one mid-level-cap tier raise already equaled significantly more grind than a traditional level cap raise would have in the old system, and this was after a 2-3 month gap, rather than over a year under the old system (level cap changes were more than a year apart for MoM>SoM>RoI>RoR>HD>Gondor). If they follow the trend, in one year we'll have to grind out more Emp scrolls than we had to in the previous 5 years of the game...

I'd say that the added amount of IXP you have to dump into an ILI compared to even a FA LI more than balances out with any of the tertiary grinds related to the old system, which as DiogoVP already pointed out, were quite minor for someone who managed their LI inventory and legacies. I have relics coming out of my ears from all the trash LIs i've leveled up purely for their IXP runes.

I'd even bet i could set up a 100% fresh LI with desired relics upon hitting a new level cap faster than I can sit and click an Emp scroll, select the right LI, select the right legacy, acknowledge, and sit through the induction the 60+ times over I have to for one of these ILI updates.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

In any event, the grind clearly is less, because so much of the old LI system has been eliminated, and the cost to increase a legacy tier is the same, at most. The problem is that Turbine dumped 9 additional tiers for each legacy on us at once, which is the equivalent, in tier terms, of constructing 3 or so old LIs.

I imagine that some folks could digest this better if those tiers were introduced in sets of 3 every 3 months or so (at time 0, 3 months, and 6 months). Personally, I'd rather have the 9 tiers up front, because I can get them all up now and gain the benefit for most of the ensuing 6 month period. The actual effort involved is the same in either case, but I suppose it depends on individual perceptions (and perception is key to whether or not something feels like a grind). The former would find the grind more acceptable if split into smaller chunks over a period of time. I find the grind more acceptable if I can focus on it and get it out of the way relatively quickly (which I have), and thus have 5+ months of playing without worrying about that particular grind.

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Actually, the entirety of the old LI system still exists, and you still have to follow the vast majority of it plus the new system to maximize your resource allocations.

What makes you think the 9 tiers we just got were the 'upfront' for the remainder of the year from now till summer's end?

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

There was never any promise or indication that there would be no grind associated with ILIs. That is wishful thinking on your part, I believe.

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This is the last time I am gonna repeat this okay? So listen carefully:
WE ARE NOT ASKING FOR NO GRIND, WE'RE ASKING FOR REASONABLE GRIND.
We're ok with grind, as long as it's feasible for all the players with the most varied playstyles.
It's like you choose not to listen and ignore things that we are saying. Haven't you even read my original post?
Wow

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

It's essentially the same thing both of us have been saying, just from being said from very different perspectives.

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Fair enough. Let's try to get along now. We're essentially in agreement, after all. So, you'll ignore my lame, occasional attempts at being coy when I tire of just repeating myself, and I'll ignore when you wag your credentials around. :p

--H

P.S. That's intended as some self-deprecation and some gentle, friendly ribbing. Though I suppose if I have to explain that. . . ;)