@Vastin - Beorning Tank Needs a Nerf

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Originally Posted by dsltn07

From what you’ve said so far, it seems you still don’t understand the differences between maul/thunder and challenge. Maul is a 30s cd, melee range, channeled 5s force taunt. Challenge is a 20m, 10s duration, used to be 30s cd. Thunderous roar is a 75 second cd (45 with legacy), 10m range. If you require using all your taunts for a typical trash pull then yeah you don’t know how to play (what you an Ilu have been saying) but it is important for certain situations to have more weak utility taunts since thunderous is so much more handicapped compared to challenge. If you want Biting edge removed then fine, but you might as well petition for vigilant roar to be buffed to 40m range to match guardians fray, and buff thunderous to a 20m range with 10s duration to match challenge too.

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First challenge is 1 minute cd and the duration of a force atack isn´t worth to mention cause you don´t use the taunt inititlal. When I copy copy 100k =900k for my the dpser needs more as 5s or even 10.
And as you sai if you need more as one aoe taunt you don´t understand to play.
If thhgunderous is handicapped well it should be fixed, but for now, learn what is the handicap and train to use it witrh this handicap. (it´s the same as shield smash for guards). Atm if one aoe and one st taunt isn´t enough for you you can´t tank no matter of the class( survivalbility is another thing).
And as I mentioned before either reduce the number of aoe taunts of beos to one or reduce the cd of challenge to min. 30s would be the same

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Originally Posted by Mukor

First challenge is 1 minute cd and the duration of a force atack isn´t worth to mention cause you don´t use the taunt inititlal. When I copy copy 100k =900k for my the dpser needs more as 5s or even 10.
And as you sai if you need more as one aoe taunt you don´t understand to play.
If thhgunderous is handicapped well it should be fixed, but for now, learn what is the handicap and train to use it witrh this handicap. (it´s the same as shield smash for guards). Atm if one aoe and one st taunt isn´t enough for you you can´t tank no matter of the class( survivalbility is another thing).
And as I mentioned before either reduce the number of aoe taunts of beos to one or reduce the cd of challenge to min. 30s would be the same

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I said it used to be 30s for challenge. You still are not getting the point that thunder has to be used much earlier than challenge because of the range. DPS typically starts as the tank runs in, on multiple targets they will immediately scatter if you do not force taunt. If you wait like you keep saying then your 10m range on bear will miss.

Funny too, you finally said what you wanted all along. “Or reduce the cd of challenge to 30s”. You still are not understanding that thunder is 45s, and considering maul equal to challenge is ludicrous. Your entire purpose for posting in this thread is to somehow get something for your guardian that Beo won’t have after your proposed nerfs. This is extremely selfish and tells me that your confidence in playing guard is very low. Guardian is fine, blue bear is fine. Leave them both alone and take your jealousy elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by dsltn07

I said it used to be 30s for challenge. You still are not getting the point that thunder has to be used much earlier than challenge because of the range. DPS typically starts as the tank runs in, on multiple targets they will immediately scatter if you do not force taunt. If you wait like you keep saying then your 10m range on bear will miss.

Funny too, you finally said what you wanted all along. “Or reduce the cd of challenge to 30s”. You still are not understanding that thunder is 45s, and considering maul equal to challenge is ludicrous. Your entire purpose for posting in this thread is to somehow get something for your guardian that Beo won’t have after your proposed nerfs. This is extremely selfish and tells me that your confidence in playing guard is very low. Guardian is fine, blue bear is fine. Leave them both alone and take your jealousy elsewhere.

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If you would know how taunts work you would see that havi g three aoe is op.
And I don't said remove two from the beo and reduce the CD of challenge back to 30s.
I said make one of this two.
And in terms of the aggro race between tank and dps. There aren't this high differences between beos and guards. One hit more vs guards maybe a second if they don't crit.

I would like to see real-world incoming damage parses and Anvil T3 videos with a blue-line Beorning to back up some of the statements in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Beastnas

I would like to see real-world incoming damage parses and Anvil T3 videos with a blue-line Beorning to back up some of the statements in this thread.

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That wouldn't do anything to help/hurt either viewpoint to be honest, unless you get a slew of parses that you can average to get a small enough error to actually get reliable information, and I can promise you that there aren't enough t3 Guards and Beornings (let alone of each individual class) to be able to do that.

Keep in mind, incoming damage will change depending on build, strategy, group comp, rotation, traiting, individual player skill, etc. There are way too many variables to have a large enough sample size to get anything you can use to definitively comment on which is better, especially when both will most likely be so close in comparison since they are fairly balanced.

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Originally Posted by ColMcStacky

That wouldn't do anything to help/hurt either viewpoint to be honest, unless you get a slew of parses that you can average to get a small enough error to actually get reliable information, and I can promise you that there aren't enough t3 Guards and Beornings (let alone of each individual class) to be able to do that.

Keep in mind, incoming damage will change depending on build, strategy, group comp, rotation, traiting, individual player skill, etc. There are way too many variables to have a large enough sample size to get anything you can use to definitively comment on which is better, especially when both will most likely be so close in comparison since they are fairly balanced.

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Agreed on the parses being unreliable. Agreed on the two classes being fairly closely balanced that a direct comparison would likely be inconclusive. This entire thread is about guardian mains thinking their class should be overwhelmingly, overpoweringly stronger than a similar role class. It’s the same problem that has plagued balancing for years regarding tanks (guards) and healers (minstrels) both feeling overwhelmingly entitled to being overpowered classes.

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Originally Posted by dsltn07

Agreed on the parses being unreliable. Agreed on the two classes being fairly closely balanced that a direct comparison would likely be inconclusive. This entire thread is about guardian mains thinking their class should be overwhelmingly, overpoweringly stronger than a similar role class. It’s the same problem that has plagued balancing for years regarding tanks (guards) and healers (minstrels) both feeling overwhelmingly entitled to being overpowered classes.

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There is nothing in discussion unless the three aoe taunts, which are op. Especially if you look at the development of the others aoe taunts for which qas one with 30s defi ed as op.
And with the current system would be even one with 30s weaker as three but good enough to be compareable.
So they need to go either this way or take the force out of tw(the melee) on the beos and only left the one range with doupling the range.

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Originally Posted by Mukor

There is nothing in discussion unless the three aoe taunts, which are op. Especially if you look at the development of the others aoe taunts for which qas one with 30s defi ed as op.
And with the current system would be even one with 30s weaker as three but good enough to be compareable.
So they need to go either this way or take the force out of tw(the melee) on the beos and only left the one range with doupling the range.

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Mukor...you’re still comparing challenge to maul. The two skills are radically different. Please just stop.

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Originally Posted by dsltn07

Mukor...you’re still comparing challenge to maul. The two skills are radically different. Please just stop.

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The mechanic behind both is the same. You copy multiply the aggro from the first in the List.
So they work for your job identical for this function.

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Originally Posted by Mukor

The mechanic behind both is the same. You copy multiply the aggro from the first in the List.
So they work for your job identical for this function.

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You are saying that the channeled, interruptable, frontal melee taunt is better than a 20m ranged force taunt. Get out of here.

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Originally Posted by dsltn07

You are saying that the channeled, interruptable, frontal melee taunt is better than a 20m ranged force taunt. Get out of here.

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I speak the whole time over thunderous roar.

10m aren´t melee and as I said too. with the same move they should douple the range.

Three aoe taunts make aggrokeeping faceroll.
1. taunt -> aoe save for 5s
2. taunt->copy multyply the threat of the firsts->8 times as much aggro as they´ve-> aggro save for minimum 40s
3. either they´re dead or you repeat step 2

this is redicilous and not just that it´s a real big advantage to all other tanks.

Furthermore nobody forces the range classes to stand range. they do the same dmg if they´re only 10 m away (even better cause the captainsbanner hits all at once).

K maybe (in addtion to balancing them in name of the threatmechanicsystem) you should earn this skill earlier/ with trating blue and the you can douple the range in line 7.

But then it would be equal. And both classes can fill this spot equal.

or switch tr (and make it 20m) with claw swipe. that the beos have the taunt from the beginning and with the legendary they can reduce the inc dmg.

or anothe rpossiblity to balnce this and this would be the easiest reduce challenge cd back to 30s and keep the rest how it is.

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Originally Posted by Mukor

I speak the whole time over thunderous roar.

10m aren´t melee and as I said too. with the same move they should douple the range.

Three aoe taunts make aggrokeeping faceroll.
1. taunt -> aoe save for 5s
2. taunt->copy multyply the threat of the firsts->8 times as much aggro as they´ve-> aggro save for minimum 40s
3. either they´re dead or you repeat step 2

this is redicilous and not just that it´s a real big advantage to all other tanks.

Furthermore nobody forces the range classes to stand range. they do the same dmg if they´re only 10 m away (even better cause the captainsbanner hits all at once).

K maybe (in addtion to balancing them in name of the threatmechanicsystem) you should earn this skill earlier/ with trating blue and the you can douple the range in line 7.

But then it would be equal. And both classes can fill this spot equal.

or switch tr (and make it 20m) with claw swipe. that the beos have the taunt from the beginning and with the legendary they can reduce the inc dmg.

or anothe rpossiblity to balnce this and this would be the easiest reduce challenge cd back to 30s and keep the rest how it is.

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Thunderous roar is not a 30 second cooldown. Maul is a 30s cd. I don’t understand the rest of your post. Re-reading trying to understand what you’re attempting to say, you have no understanding of how either class works, if you’re saying what I think you are.

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Originally Posted by dsltn07

Thunderous roar is not a 30 second cooldown. Maul is a 30s cd. I don’t understand the rest of your post. Re-reading trying to understand what you’re attempting to say, you have no understanding of how either class works, if you’re saying what I think you are.

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And you don´t get all my points I compare one aoe taunt with 60s cd to 3.
And say they should remove all of them except the one tr (65s/could even be reduced) and keep 60s to challenge or they keep the three on the beo and reduce challnge back to 30s cd.
I never said take all except of tr and reduce challenge cd to 30s.
I said do one of this.

one with 60s = one with 65 or less seconds
or
one with 30s = 3 diferrent

everything else isn´t balanced.

And I know how it works both build threat in a race vs the dpser. loose this race and copy multiply the threat via taunt from the first in the list.
And I guess what you want to say, that a guard generate al lot more. k but not this much more that it would matter 2 maybe 3 skills and the dpser have won the race if you play vs a good one.
The mechanic is simple and couinbt for all copy multiply the threat after lost at 90% foe morale and you have until the end (even going afk) if you need to taunt earlier both classes still generate enough threat to keep the threat.
It doesn´t matter if 40k generated threat is overwritten with 100k or just 20k or even less. You need to taunt to get it back.
Only chance for a guard to keep it longer without taunting is run into the force with shield-smash doable and it critted.

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Originally Posted by Mukor

And you don´t get all my points I compare one aoe taunt with 60s cd to 3.
And say they should remove all of them except the one tr (65s/could even be reduced) and keep 60s to challenge or they keep the three on the beo and reduce challnge back to 30s cd.
I never said take all except of tr and reduce challenge cd to 30s.
I said do one of this.

one with 60s = one with 65 or less seconds
or
one with 30s = 3 diferrent

everything else isn´t balanced.

And I know how it works both build threat in a race vs the dpser. loose this race and copy multiply the threat via taunt from the first in the list.
And I guess what you want to say, that a guard generate al lot more. k but not this much more that it would matter 2 maybe 3 skills and the dpser have won the race if you play vs a good one.
The mechanic is simple and couinbt for all copy multiply the threat after lost at 90% foe morale and you have until the end (even going afk) if you need to taunt earlier both classes still generate enough threat to keep the threat.
It doesn´t matter if 40k generated threat is overwritten with 100k or just 20k or even less. You need to taunt to get it back.
Only chance for a guard to keep it longer without taunting is run into the force with shield-smash doable and it critted.

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You’re in here arguing to nerf a class that doesn’t need a nerf, or to buff a class that doesn’t need a buff. Sure, threat could stand to be reworked. But nerfing a class because you think the skills all work the same is ridiculous. You are directly comparing thunderous roar and maul to challenge. Thunderous roar is FAR weaker than challenge to begin with. Maul is an entirely different skill in that its a channeled melee skill, you are still comparing saying it’s better than challenge. Biting edge cannot be used reliably because of man vs bear mechanics/traits. The 3 bear taunts are all effectively melee, and you want to compare them to a 20m radius 10s duration force taunt? No good sir, you do NOT understand the mechanics nor what you are asking for. Please step off these forums at the next exit with your ridiculous assumptions.

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Originally Posted by dsltn07

You’re in here arguing to nerf a class that doesn’t need a nerf, or to buff a class that doesn’t need a buff. Sure, threat could stand to be reworked. But nerfing a class because you think the skills all work the same is ridiculous. You are directly comparing thunderous roar and maul to challenge. Thunderous roar is FAR weaker than challenge to begin with. Maul is an entirely different skill in that its a channeled melee skill, you are still comparing saying it’s better than challenge. Biting edge cannot be used reliably because of man vs bear mechanics/traits. The 3 bear taunts are all effectively melee, and you want to compare them to a 20m radius 10s duration force taunt? No good sir, you do NOT understand the mechanics nor what you are asking for. Please step off these forums at the next exit with your ridiculous assumptions.

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the duration of the force doens´t matter for the mechanics and all taunts copy the threat and multiply it with 9 (hd mechanics).
So the only differences which matter are three (two if you don´t count the man but at least this would be free then as a emergency get it back) of this vs one with 60s.
everyone who use his taunt at the beginning the only point where the duration matters will loose it rigth after this duration. And for figths with less than 10s you don´t need to tank.

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Originally Posted by Mukor

the duration of the force doens´t matter for the mechanics and all taunts copy the threat and multiply it with 9 (hd mechanics).
So the only differences which matter are three (two if you don´t count the man but at least this would be free then as a emergency get it back) of this vs one with 60s.
everyone who use his taunt at the beginning the only point where the duration matters will loose it rigth after this duration. And for figths with less than 10s you don´t need to tank.

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You can not compare melee force taunt to ranged force taunts. It’s an unfair comparison. Further, you cannot wait on thunderous like you can with challenge due to the range difference. Stop assuming that a bear can play the same exact way that a guardian can. The duration DOES matter, if it was 5s on challenge I can guarantee you that guardians could not hold agro on many typical pulls.

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Originally Posted by dsltn07

You can not compare melee force taunt to ranged force taunts. It’s an unfair comparison. Further, you cannot wait on thunderous like you can with challenge due to the range difference. Stop assuming that a bear can play the same exact way that a guardian can. The duration DOES matter, if it was 5s on challenge I can guarantee you that guardians could not hold agro on many typical pulls.

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And I said douple the range. So they would be equal.
And of course doesn't the duration matter. Cause overwroting the copy multiple threat will need longer.

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Originally Posted by Mukor

And I said douple the range. So they would be equal.
And of course doesn't the duration matter. Cause overwroting the copy multiple threat will need longer.

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Now you’re just talking about replacing the Beo with an exact copy of the guardian’s skills.

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Originally Posted by dsltn07

Now you’re just talking about replacing the Beo with an exact copy of the guardian’s skills.

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Or reducing challenge back to 30s. As I mentioned too.
But something must be change for balancing in this case.

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Originally Posted by Mukor

Or reducing challenge back to 30s. As I mentioned too.
But something must be change for balancing in this case.

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No, this is not a question of balance. Either you’re here just to troll, or you clearly do not understand either class. You’ve asked for three things as follows:
1. Remove 2/3 of the Beo aoe taunt skills.
2. Reduce guardian cooldown to 30s.
3. Make Beo skill a copy of guardian skills (while removing the other skills)

The only reasoning you’ve offered for any of these is “Beo has more, must nerf”
All three of these are bad suggestions. Stop.

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Originally Posted by dsltn07

No, this is not a question of balance. Either you’re here just to troll, or you clearly do not understand either class. You’ve asked for three things as follows:
1. Remove 2/3 of the Beo aoe taunt skills.
2. Reduce guardian cooldown to 30s.
3. Make Beo skill a copy of guardian skills (while removing the other skills)

The only reasoning you’ve offered for any of these is “Beo has more, must nerf”
All three of these are bad suggestions. Stop.

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And everyone who knows how taunts work would clearly see that having three aoe is really op. And give the class with it a big advantage over All others.

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Originally Posted by Mukor

And everyone who knows how taunts work would clearly see that having three aoe is really op. And give the class with it a big advantage over All others.

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Here, how about this: let’s give guardians biting edge and maul, and take away challenge. That’s more force taunts and should be overpowered. Would this make guardians happy? No? There’s a reason why: the skills are not equal in strength.

Does Shield taunt not count as an AoE taunt? Is War chant not useful? Dont really play the Guardian much tbh.

I will say that you will never achieve total balance unless every skill is a copy, which wont be good. If the Guardian was getting dropped in favor of the Beorning then i can see your point (the Guardian was favoured over the Beorning for so long), but it isnt.

Why not ask for a cooldown reduction for Guardians Challenge or a buff to shield taunt, rather than asking for a nerf to another class, that has only recently become competitive with other classes.

There is nothing OP about the Beorning, like some are saying here. Perhaps your own class needs work...so ask for that instead. Perhaps Challenge nerf was just just another heavy handed nerf, nothing new there.

Both are working well so leave well alone, there are far bigger issues the developers need to work on imo.

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

Does Shield taunt not count as an AoE taunt? Is War chant not useful? Dont really play the Guardian much tbh.

I will say that you will never achieve total balance unless every skill is a copy, which wont be good. If the Guardian was getting dropped in favor of the Beorning then i can see your point (the Guardian was favoured over the Beorning for so long), but it isnt.

Why not ask for a cooldown reduction for Guardians Challenge or a buff to shield taunt, rather than asking for a nerf to another class, that has only recently become competitive with other classes.

There is nothing OP about the Beorning, like some are saying here. Perhaps your own class needs work...so ask for that instead. Perhaps Challenge nerf was just just another heavy handed nerf, nothing new there.

Both are working well so leave well alone, there are far bigger issues the developers need to work on imo.

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Shield taunt isn't a taunt(wrong namegiving) just create threat (around 25k) which is overwrite by one attack. And war cant is useful but the threat is overwriten with one to two skills too you use it more for the - 5% out dmg.
As said every tank needs it's taunts to tank.
Having more as one give this class the opportunity to ignore the mechanic and do just taunt tanking which is redicolous.
But this would just solche this Balance Problem which is caused through a stupid aggrosystem.
Best would be anyway taht they overwork the aggro system completely or better go back to pre HD.

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Originally Posted by Mukor

Shield taunt isn't a taunt(wrong namegiving) just create threat (around 25k) which is overwrite by one attack. And war cant is useful but the threat is overwriten with one to two skills too you use it more for the - 5% out dmg.
As said every tank needs it's taunts to tank.
Having more as one give this class the opportunity to ignore the mechanic and do just taunt tanking which is redicolous.
But this would just solche this Balance Problem which is caused through a stupid aggrosystem.
Best would be anyway taht they overwork the aggro system completely or better go back to pre HD.

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Perhaps shield taunt may need a buff then?. Give it a force taunt and increase its cooldown maybe or just lower Challenge to pre nerf 30 seconds, it worked fine back then without issues i think.

But until the aggro system rework, i would leave the Beorning well alone, it is working well and so is the Guardian as far as i know.

Let the developers spend their time on content etc rather than work that actually does nothing really.