PvMP Update and Changes

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Originally Posted by Fants_SSG

I'm unsure of the cloaks you're referring to, or the significance of that date. The rank cloaks that were updated have been in the game since release, and have been pretty useless since Moria.

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As Snowlock says above, these were added during Kelsan's PvMP work during the Rise of Isengard expansion.

Below is an archived version of his Dev Diary.

http://web.archive.org/web/201111261...-changes-freep

EDIT: As it seems, the third page with the details was not saved in wayback.

Here is a forum post from Kelsan announcing the item.

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Originally Posted by Kelsen

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Also, I forgot to mention that there is a new quest available at Rank 10 that allows you to acquire a new PvMP cloak that provides a taste of the rank scaling stats. This cloak will improve as you increase in rank.

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Originally Posted by Daenirion

Welcome Fants!

I'm happy to see that the accessibility issue has been acknowledged and adressed! I would take it a step further though. PvMP should truly be a minigame inside the game. You should be able to get everything you need FOR PvMP FROM PvMP.

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I would also suggest to grant 1 skill point per PvMP rank. So 15 in total. Farming skill points is a nightmare. Or, again, scaling.

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Coming up with solution for Skill Points is not going to be easy.

Awarding SP based on ranks will not work because of interference with PvE Skill Points. You gain SPs based on ranks, but you can also farm those from PvE. What would stop you from doing both and get more SPs than you are designed to have at current level cap?

But let's say ranks award SPs up until designated cap. Then there's another problem.

Scaling SPs will not work because of how SPs are spent. Suppose SPs do scale, they're awarded when you enter PvMP area and substracted once you leave. That means you'll have to respec every time you leave PvMP area, and that doesn't sound convenient at all.

To counter that you could have a specific Skill Page that can only be activated in PvMP zone. This page would always have all SPs available at current level cap, so this would solve both problems. The question is whether there's tech necessary to add such a Skill Page and how much would this clog up database and memory and client-server exchange. Maybe some more elegant, or less elegant but more efficient solution is needed.

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Originally Posted by Hallandil

And with this, you've already lost me.

Yet another example of an update to the game being restricted to the level range of upcoming content. A quality of life upgrade is a complete waste of time if it occurs in a vacuum.

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Every expansion to the game is 'Yet another example of an update to the game being restricted to the level range of upcoming content.'

Mulatic
R14 Reaver
Arkenstone

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Originally Posted by Constrictions

As Snowlock says above, these were added during Kelsan's PvMP work during the Rise of Isengard expansion.

Below is an archived version of his Dev Diary.

http://web.archive.org/web/201111261...-changes-freep

EDIT: As it seems, the third page with the details was not saved in wayback.

Here is a forum post from Kelsan announcing the item.

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Gotcha. I was unaware of their existence, and I didn't update these, sorry.

Any chance adding the Rank level Inc healing bonus back in for creeps? It was stripped out years ago, seems like there isn't too much difference between a skilled up low rank creep and a purple rank.

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Originally Posted by Hilawolf

Any chance adding the Rank level Inc healing bonus back in for creeps? It was stripped out years ago, seems like there isn't too much difference between a skilled up low rank creep and a purple rank.

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Incoming healing significantly reduces the potency of incoming healing debuffs and therefore makes a high healing meta even worse.

Making healing (which is OP on both sides) stronger is a bad idea. Making it stronger by negating incoming healing debuffs is a VERY bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Hallandil

Edit: Really frustrating that the available of items and systems is dismissed as "It would not be the best", the problem is you're sacrificing player choice and variety for a clean-cut gameplay loop that might be the "Middle-Earth Gold Standard" but has the replayability shelf-life of milk exposed to Lobelia's face.

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I typically don't engage with these types of posts, but I empathize with your frustration and I want to explain some of our thought process behind this.

So there are a few inherent issues with working on PvP in Lotro
1. The design has been muddled by over a decade of different developers, systems, and different servers.
2. The PvE core of the game cannot be changed by PvP
3. Scaling is broken by both of the above issues.

It's easy to say, 'why didn't you just make the items scaling'. The short answer to that, is that the system is bad. There would need to be significant engineering resources dedicated to fixing it along with design work to fix all the items in the game that are scaling poorly or too good. If we did decide to allocate the engineering and design resources to fix it, we would need to look at the ramifications of what we would be losing. Likely, this would mean work on performance, lag, pathing, new itemization, and a host of other issues in the backlog. In this case, it's easier to move away from the system altogether than to try and fix it.

On the bright side, all of the previous PvMP items will remain in the game. So you will be able to use legacy PvP gear on legacy servers. You will also benefit from map changes, and any other quality of life changes that are implemented.

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Originally Posted by Fants_SSG

This is the one item that doesn't have any audacity, but it has really good vitality and mitigation. There are no set bonuses.

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So on this note it would be cool if you would consider taking a look at the level 85-100 audacity sets and re-implementing them. Aside from the fact that set bonuses are just a lot of fun, there's the issue of several times in lotro's history a pve set has been good enough to outweigh the need for audacity. Thinking of 85 hunters with Erebor Fleetness set specifically here. It might be a bit of an edgecase but it can be frustrating to be the class that is suboptimal if you don't raid grind while everyone else wears pvp armour.

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Originally Posted by J-Moneyforever

So on this note it would be cool if you would consider taking a look at the level 85-100 audacity sets and re-implementing them. Aside from the fact that set bonuses are just a lot of fun, there's the issue of several times in lotro's history a pve set has been good enough to outweigh the need for audacity. Thinking of 85 hunters with Erebor Fleetness set specifically here. It might be a bit of an edgecase but it can be frustrating to be the class that is suboptimal if you don't raid grind while everyone else wears pvp armour.

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I agree with this 100%

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Originally Posted by Fants_SSG

I typically don't engage with these types of posts, but I empathize with your frustration and I want to explain some of our thought process behind this.

So there are a few inherent issues with working on PvP in Lotro
1. The design has been muddled by over a decade of different developers, systems, and different servers.
2. The PvE core of the game cannot be changed by PvP
3. Scaling is broken by both of the above issues.

It's easy to say, 'why didn't you just make the items scaling'. The short answer to that, is that the system is bad. There would need to be significant engineering resources dedicated to fixing it along with design work to fix all the items in the game that are scaling poorly or too good. If we did decide to allocate the engineering and design resources to fix it, we would need to look at the ramifications of what we would be losing. Likely, this would mean work on performance, lag, pathing, new itemization, and a host of other issues in the backlog.

In this case, it's easier to move away from the system altogether than to try and fix it.

Which seems to be the current mindset for the rest of the game. I appreciate you taking the time to actually read the post and respond, that's not something I can say has happened when presenting these concerns to the very parts of the game you're currently describing.

On the bright side, all of the previous PvMP items will remain in the game. So you will be able to use legacy PvP gear on legacy servers. You will also benefit from map changes, and any other quality of life changes that are implemented.

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Please don't take what I posted the wrong way, it is not a direct challenge or attack on the PvMP changes nor yourself. And in complete honesty, yeah I agree.

It's not currently on you as a PvMP developer to necessary address these issues, but as we've both noted they effect the ability to enjoy/develop the game.

The issue is looking at it from both an understanding of systems design and an end-consumer perspective, where the very problem being described is continuously exacerbated by a reluctance to address the very problem in the first place.

The real outstanding issue with your last point is that the vast majority of items, gear and "legacy content" on legendary servers don't operate in their intended state. Where many items, mechanics and quest arcs are subject to the various systematic changes across the games history (finesse, introduction of partial Block/Parry/Evade, change from mixed stats to main Will/Might/Agility oriented stat slices). This doesn't even delve into circumstances where legacy items and content were just ripped up as they did not conform to the new zeitgeist - with little or no replacement. (An example right now is the Watcher/Turtle encounters still dropping Nimrodel tokens on Shadowfax that are functionally useless as the new system requires Cracked Traceries that do not currently drop).

Sorry if this pushes the boundary of the thread topic.

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Originally Posted by Chris91

Incoming healing significantly reduces the potency of incoming healing debuffs and therefore makes a high healing meta even worse.

Making healing (which is OP on both sides) stronger is a bad idea. Making it stronger by negating incoming healing debuffs is a VERY bad idea.

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I'm for scaling down healing overall. I liked it when there was a difference between low and high ranked creeps. Right now, a bought up red rank is not much different than a purple rank.

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Originally Posted by Fants_SSG

-Incoming Damage reduction now decreased only at rank 25+

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This feels like it is going to be very hard on new players and players returning to try the new system. We've had the -inc damage bonus for so long it's hard to judge how this will affect live, but this will need to be significantly tested in BR, but I know that's not really what BR is for. If we're going to auto bestow ranks in BR or make them easily obtained through big grants in comms for bug testing purposes, I'm worried this could get missed and its impacts not felt until live.

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Originally Posted by Snowlock

This feels like it is going to be very hard on new players and players returning to try the new system. We've had the -inc damage bonus for so long it's hard to judge how this will affect live, but this will need to be significantly tested in BR, but I know that's not really what BR is for. If we're going to auto bestow ranks in BR or make them easily obtained through big grants in comms for bug testing purposes, I'm worried this could get missed and its impacts not felt until live.

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I think you're a little confused here. This change was meant to soft deprecate the older legacy gear. The new gear, which can be purchased by new players and pvpers with gold, starts with 25 audacity if they wear the full set. Also, by rank I mean Audacity, not pvp rank.

Edit: The tavern on Bullroarer / Palantir has also been updated with testing PvMP npcs, for grants, ranks, and commendations.

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Originally Posted by Fants_SSG

I think you're a little confused here. This change was meant to soft deprecate the older legacy gear. The new gear, which can be purchased by new players and pvpers with gold, starts with 25 audacity if they wear the full set. Also, by rank I mean Audacity, not pvp rank.

Edit: The tavern on Bullroarer / Palantir has also been updated with testing PvMP npcs, for grants, ranks, and commendations.

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So the new gear set purchased with gold starts us out at 25 audacity, ok cool.

How about creeps, do they get bumped to 25 audacity too, or are they just staying with the 25 audacity cap as is on live currently?

One more serious issue.

COMBAT LOG OUT

Question: Have lotro mechanics that control logout timers in differrent Areas?

Need to Increase it to 1 minute - In Combat, and 30s - out of combat. It Possible only for Ettenmoors ?

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Originally Posted by venyos

One more serious issue.

COMBAT LOG OUT

Question: Have lotro mechanics that control logout timers in differrent Areas?

Need to Increase it to 1 minute - In Combat, and 30s - out of combat. It Possible only for Ettenmoors ?

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that is the opposite of the solution. the reason combat logging happens is because the player starts logging out when they are out of combat and then they get attacked but they keep the out of combat log out time. best solution would be to cancel your logout if you become in combat or just make them both 30 seconds. There was not really combat logging out before they changed that timer ages ago.

Either way this is a very minor issue.

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Originally Posted by venyos

One more serious issue.

COMBAT LOG OUT

Question: Have lotro mechanics that control logout timers in differrent Areas?

Need to Increase it to 1 minute - In Combat, and 30s - out of combat. It Possible only for Ettenmoors ?

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this is literally the least important thing out of all the things.


words can't describe how infinitesimally small and insignificant that problem is.

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Originally Posted by Snowlock

How about creeps, do they get bumped to 25 audacity too, or are they just staying with the 25 audacity cap as is on live currently?

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Originally Posted by Fants_SSG

-Monsters are able to purchase audacity up to rank 50 (was 25)

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Originally Posted by Daenirion

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I guess that's what threw me off. So a greenie then has to do 50 ranks of audacity? That's where I was like, ouch.

Should the outnumbered buffs get a rework as well and just offer extra comms or infamy like 30/40 % and no damage or similar buff

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Originally Posted by Snowlock

I guess that's what threw me off. So a greenie then has to do 50 ranks of audacity? That's where I was like, ouch.

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You can already get the first 13 levels at a discount. Between 100 and 500 comms. 14 to 19 are 6k and then 7,5k to 25. I'm sure it will be adjusted

warleaders desperately need a heal buff. defiler healing is fine atm. PLEASE REMOVE heal tagging unless grouped. defilers can put a HOT on you and still get infamy from people you kill minutes later.

The commondation cost for stuff on creepside is a little pricey. For all skins even the low rank skins cost 7.5k comms. esp when com cap is 15k. its really bad for low rank creeps. they have to worry about buying new skills, passives, class traits, audacity and pots. maybe at least lower the cost for creep pots and raise comms cap.

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Originally Posted by Fants_SSG

On the bright side, all of the previous PvMP items will remain in the game. So you will be able to use legacy PvP gear on legacy servers. You will also benefit from map changes, and any other quality of life changes that are implemented.

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I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but when you say they will be able to use legacy PvP gear on legacy servers how would that be possible if we don't have the Ettenmoors available on these servers? I hope what you mean is you thought long and hard and decided opening the moors region up on the legendary worlds makes a ton of sense :D

Since a new class may be unlikely for creeps, could we at least get some more new skins to freshen things up? What about speciality skins that can be placed on monster classes like a Cargul (red nazgul servent) skin for Uruks or Angmarin for Orcs? Also a goblin rider for Wargs.

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Originally Posted by quicksilver3

warleaders desperately need a heal buff. defiler healing is fine atm. PLEASE REMOVE heal tagging unless grouped. defilers can put a HOT on you and still get infamy from people you kill minutes later.

The commondation cost for stuff on creepside is a little pricey. For all skins even the low rank skins cost 7.5k comms. esp when com cap is 15k. its really bad for low rank creeps. they have to worry about buying new skills, passives, class traits, audacity and pots. maybe at least lower the cost for creep pots and raise comms cap.

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Yes to all of these. Except, make "heal tagging" to raid wide credit, as well as group only. And DPS raid wide credit too please.... unless this leads to spaghetti lag.