CNN: Rings of Power delivers spectacle, lacks dramatic power

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Originally Posted by LagunaD2

I suspect they decided it's an unimportant detail. And I agree. They showed visually that the place is huge, which is more compelling than putting distances in dialog. I imagine there will be future scenes which reinforce the sense of scale.

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Err...

Guess who thought details like that were an important part of world-building? Tolkien.
Guess who also thought it was necessary for the audience to appreciate the overall scale as well as that of the mines and halls? PJ.

Also it's plainly off because they have Elrond say he'd only be a few days (when there and back should obviously take longer than that. without even allowing for time to talk to the Dwarves) and besides, they make his arrival look all but instant. Like it was just along a bit and round a corner or two.

Also, lack of baggage. (That was even more bonkers in the scene with Galadriel and her men in Forodwaith where they said they were going to set up camp and they had nothing to set up camp with).

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Err...

Guess who thought details like that were an important part of world-building? Tolkien.
Guess who also thought it was necessary for the audience to appreciate the overall scale as well as that of the mines and halls? PJ.

Also it's plainly off because they have Elrond say he'd only be a few days (when there and back should obviously take longer than that. without even allowing for time to talk to the Dwarves) and besides, they make his arrival look all but instant. Like it was just along a bit and round a corner or two.

Also, lack of baggage. (That was even more bonkers in the scene with Galadriel and her men in Forodwaith where they said they were going to set up camp and they had nothing to set up camp with).

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They have swift travel.

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Originally Posted by wispsong

They have swift travel.

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And it looks like mithril coins are on the horizon, too.

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Originally Posted by DavidmeetHal

OFF TOPIC! I just wanted to say that I've always loved your sig. Down with dwarves. They really need to learn how to take a bath.

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/salute

LOL. Things you learn... So basically female dwarves have no beards because they decided to celebrate Sophia Nomvete's body and sexuality in full - not the character's she is playing but Sophia's body - and apparently a beard (ANY KIND OF BEARD) would have been the "disadvantage" here. So, as the result, all female dwarves end up without beards. Just more of these woke creators' insertion of the "message" at the expense of the lore and blatant showcase of their complete disregard for said lore and Tolkien. Sophia Nomvete was very happy about this (why am I not surprised, in her own words... she was "excited to be celebrated") and so the last bits of respect I had for her as a person and an actress go down the drain...

Source:
https://screenrant.com/lotr-rings-po...eard-response/

Also, this article is lying again, says that Tolkien was never clear on females having beards and then... it immediately contradicts itself by admitting they almost certainly had beards. *sight* Lunatic asylum it is...

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

LOL. Things you learn... So basically female dwarves have no beards because they decided to celebrate Sophia Nomvete's body and sexuality in full - not the character's she is playing but Sophia's body - and apparently a beard (ANY KIND OF BEARD) would have been the "disadvantage" here. So, as the result, all female dwarves end up without beards. Just more of these woke creators' insertion of the "message" at the expense of the lore and blatant showcase of their complete disregard for said lore and Tolkien. Sophia Nomvete was very happy about this (why am I not surprised, in her own words... she was "excited to be celebrated") and so the last bits of respect I had for her as a person and an actress go down the drain...

Source:
https://screenrant.com/lotr-rings-po...eard-response/

Also, this article is lying again, says that Tolkien was never clear on females having beards and then... it immediately contradicts itself by admitting they almost certainly had beards. *sight* Lunatic asylum it is...

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As they're making a big fuss out of her being, err, womanly I imagine they want to signal that loud and clear. And we know they don't really give two hoots about anything Tolkien ever wrote unless it's something obvious that they can hijack and even then they just use it as window-dressing.

However, I wouldn't be too sure that what she said in interviews is what she really thinks or if she's effectively playing herself in a role Amazon have written for her.

I finally sat down to watch it and after hearing all these horrible things about it online....

It's Ok. Not good, not bad, just super middle ground. And it's only middle ground because of the story. I like the most* of the VFX work, really love the music, solid pick of actors. Honestly even the story isn't bad but it's not good either, the issue is that it's just so generic, someone described as episode 1 feeling like an unskippable cutscene and yeah it did.
Who knows maybe future episodes will be better considering they are working on several seasons of it or maybe it won't.

The only thing I know, with all the hate watching people are doing, especially those Hate Click Youtubers you know it's going to be successful.

*The Majority of the Landscapes look amazing, but there's a scene or two that looks straight out of a pre-rendered video game.

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

I wouldn't be too sure that what she said in interviews is what she really thinks or if she's effectively playing herself in a role Amazon have written for her.

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Either way... respect goes down. So no difference really

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Originally Posted by Berret01

I like the most* of the VFX work, really love the music, solid pick of actors. Honestly even the story isn't bad but it's not good either, the issue is that it's just so generic, someone described as episode 1 feeling like an unskippable cutscene and yeah it did.

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Except Tolkien shouldn't feel too "generic." PJ's movies sure as hell didn't evoke such feelings. That's like already a giant red flag (but Amazon promised such a "spectacle"). Visual effects are ok only if you judge them in a vacuum (and ignoring the fact this was the most expensive show in tv history). Intro is weak visually and doesn't evoke the feeling of grandness, hardly sells their "quest" too. Compare with something like Battle of the Last alliance or Battle of Azanulbizar from the Hobbit. Lindon, Khazad-dum and Eregion (so far) were shown like for a split second each, then we just see characters in tighter interiors talk a lot. (or in forestry areas) Except for dirty villages (or hobbits) this world doesn't appear very lived-in, just empty. Meanwhile, there were a lot of crowded shots that lasted more than 20 seconds in PJ, yes, including Hobbit and THAT scene with bearded female dwarves in it. Game of Thrones/House of the Dragon have a lot of lively city scenes too and vistas that make it look more alive as a world, not digitally produced city hubs with nothing in-between. Well, I guess maybe they already spent all their cash on Numenor but haven't even made it a proper colonial kingdom :P We shall see in next episode..

How are the actors - and in particular, what they have to act with - good? Disa/Elrond/Durin aside, all others who were prominently featured were kind of wasted on cringe dialogue. I wish they had something better to act with.

You're misunderstanding me when I said solid pick of actors. I've seen them act in other things and they are great! They got a good solid line up. But there's only so much any actor can do with boring writing.
I honestly hope the writing improves so they can all shine. So much money sunken into it and you would expect some halfway decent writing.

Honestly I'm just not putting an emotional investment in it, if the future episodes end up being amazing, that's great! If they end up being bad, then oh well.
I just don't have the mental space to be angry about a show, plus I'm sure Amazon is counting on the Outrage and the hate watching for free publicity and to get the viewing numbers up.

Well yeah, I'm sure many of them could do something great and shine, but the writing... ugh

I don't think that Amazon counts on hate watching since that would usually involve pirated episodes. This project should lead people towards Amazon Prime and subscriptions, if it doesn't - sounds like a failure. (at least financial but there is also the "ideological" battle going on, sort of)

While they've certainly taken some liberties with the timeline, for me Episode 3 was a *major* improvement over the first two.

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Originally Posted by LagunaD2

While they've certainly taken some liberties with the timeline, for me Episode 3 was a *major* improvement over the first two.

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To be fair though, the first two seasons of Star trek the Next Generation were just beyond awful, but the quality did a complete 180 starting with the 3rd season and was a lot better all the way to season 7. You never know, it might be the same here. Please don't bring in a hobbit Wesley Crusher.....

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Originally Posted by LagunaD2

a *major* improvement over the first two.

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Possibly, I haven't watched it yet, for now, but I skipped through it and looked in random places, it does look like it's more tolerable (but possibly something to do with there being A LOT of orcs in it, less Harfoots, some lively streets of Numenor and Halbrand beating up some guys because they say he is lowly, yeaaaah, dude is definitely Sauron). I haven't noticed any immediate cringe... OH WAIT, Galadriel figured out it's not a mark of Sauron, it's a map and some (apparently random) spy/prisoner (?) wrote to Numenoreans (in black speech???) that there is a "contingency plan to create a kingdom for Morgoth's successor." Duh. Apparently such things like kingdoms and empires arising don't happen in a more natural way, instead it's "elaborate" plan of Prof Sauron Moriarty except it's something pretty simple and super obvious that hardly classifies as "contingency plan" (that would be if they had like nukes they can launch on the good guys after Morgoth's defeat, also how is there a contingency plan NOW when it's already thousands of years after Morgoth's defeat? again, they're not even consistent with what they've established). But well, that's what I can expect from a series with "take a swim across the ocean"

The entire "prepare Mordor for Sauron" premise gives me Shadow of Mordor vibes, except in this game it made a little bit more sense. First, there were possibly some dark, atmospheric boosts (with guys like powerful Enemy's necromancers already around and Sauron's actively involved) and otherwise the game just didn't care about its orcs as sun hesitant so they hardly even bring that up. Here the emphasis is ALL on them being burnt by sun and the place framed as a barren waste that's not very lush, with strong sun. In the game Mordor has a lot of the infrastructure already, they just gotta retake it and rebuild, here they gotta build all from scratch - and they're being terribly burnt. In the game they captured some local Gondorian watchmen and locals as slaves, here they capture elven watchmen and locals (which makes all these elves look like dumbasses, not very elven, watchful...). In the game some parts of the landscape such as around Nurn needed to be deforested again - because live was restored after defeat of Sauron - here the place is pretty barren from the start (despite there never being Sauron's presence) but they gotta deforest it anyway. All of that they gotta do while they're being terribly burnt... and the management of their slave labor doesn't appear to work well... So hmm, they're not even being very original with this plot, plus makes less sense than things from Shadow of Mordor.

I like that the orcs are pale-skinned - that makes their light-sensitivity more intuitive, as well as their distant relation to the (mostly) fair-skinned elves.

Numenor is impressive, and generally felt/looked right. Hat-tip for a shout-out to Elros, too.

We learned more about Halbrand. Spoiler alert: he's not Sauron. But with the right plot twist, he might still wind up as an important player on his team.

Galadriel also showed more range - smiling and even using some humor.

Apart from getting confirmation that it's "Harfoots" and not "Harfeet", that was the one part of the episode that seemed to be spinning its wheels. The Stranger is still not looking very Istari-like...

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Originally Posted by DavidmeetHal

To be fair though, the first two seasons of Star trek the Next Generation were just beyond awful, but the quality did a complete 180 starting with the 3rd season and was a lot better all the way to season 7. You never know, it might be the same here. Please don't bring in a hobbit Wesley Crusher.....

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Off-topic, but for me, season 1 was the only real stinker.

Season 2 had a lot of good stuff, apart from Dr. Pulaski and the execrable The Royale: Dr. Moriarty, the Borg and one of absolute best episodes of the whole series, The Measure of a Man...

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Originally Posted by LagunaD2

We learned more about Halbrand. Spoiler alert: he's not Sauron. But with the right plot twist, he might still wind up as an important player on his team.

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I've heard he is like anti-Aragorn and... we basically knew that from the start. So doesn't change anything, he might just be lying or play a role. Wouldn't surprise me if he was Sauron.

Although... to be honest, no idea how this will progress. Amazon might as well go SW 7-9 route where each movie was pretty disjointed from the other, with someone different at the helm and some of the premises obviously changed to "fix" things (which it failed to do anyway). Same might very well happen here and in a few years it may turned out the buildups they're doing now are MEANINGLESS and they take like a complete sudden turn with certain characters. Or - at best - they randomly kill them off and focus on the lore ones, with their excuse being they're trying to emulate a sudden surprise of death like in GoT.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

I've heard he is like anti-Aragorn and... we basically knew that from the start. So doesn't change anything, he might just be lying or play a role. Wouldn't surprise me if he was Sauron.

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He's not Sauron.

But he might get a piece of jewelry from him some day...

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Originally Posted by LagunaD2

He's not Sauron.

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There is obviously a chance he isn't but... all I'm saying is don't be surprised and don't roll your eyes. "Found it on a dead man because the pattern suited me" "I'm not the hero you seek" "Be careful elf" "All I see in an elf who won't put down her sword." all can be read as something very befitting someone like Sauron. All he needs to do is pretend he is actually the person he murdered and play coy (if that's him). They're doing it like he is their version of Aragorn and Return of the King (which in itself is sooo... ugh why, why was that even needed, oh well I know why cheap call backs) but at the same time you don't really get much conviction from him or real drama, he is just... there and plays along with Galadriel. And he snaps pretty badly in that fight scene. So who knows.

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Originally Posted by LagunaD2

While they've certainly taken some liberties with the timeline, for me Episode 3 was a *major* improvement over the first two.

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It's getting somewhat better but the writing is still dodgy.

*** EPISODE 3 SPOILERS ***

- 'Karendriel' is as insufferable as ever - if she was always like this then their idea of her having been in command simply does not work, she'd have been unfit to command and unfit to be commanded (we've seen how insubordinate she is) so not only would she have never ended up in charge, she'd have gotten the boot. Straight after the war, even if they'd put up with her nonsense during it. Being good at killing Orcs doesn't make you a good leader, and from what we've seen she definitely isn't one. Also, she currently isn't commander of anything and saying she's from a branch of the Royal House of the Noldor would be quite enough. And she shouldn't be so damn snooty with the Numenoreans, either - the Eldar were supposed to be more courteous, and she is after all on their turf and owes them her life.

- her being famous enough they've heard of her in Numenor as 'the scourge of the Orcs' as shown later is annoying, like they just have to hype the Strong Female Lead every chance they get. Never mind anyone else who fought Morgoth...

- careless use of the term "Middle-earth". The whole mainland is Middle-earth, it means the mortal realms where Men live. Not just that north-western bit we're familiar with. The Numenorean ships must be sailing *somewhere* so just because they're not going to Elvish lands doesn't mean they're not going to Middle-earth.

- breaking even a stern law or royal command isn't necessarily treason. People fling that word around because it sounds dramatic.

- they don't have roads, farms or villages in Numenor? Outside the city it's an empty landscape

- Halbrand's question to the blacksmith should be how he might seek employment with a master (e.g. some sort of indenture while he proves his skill). The guild thing would mean he couldn't be a self-employed artisan as in typical fashion they're running a closed shop, not that he wouldn't be allowed to work at all. The real problem is that he isn't Numenorean, so nobody would want to sponsor him. He gets called 'low man' later but if they don't want immigrants, which they indeed did not because of the whole High Men thing, how did Numenor get to be so diverse? And why does Miriel look the way she does? Contradictory, they're trying to have their cake and eat it, too.

- language - for 'real', the Numenoreans would be speaking Adunaic. If this were Tolkien then someone like Halbrand might be able to make some sense of it due to his language being related to theirs, but no more than that. Galadriel would be able to talk to them after a fashion if she knew the old language of the Edain but she'd sound super old-fashioned to them. They might not condescend to speak Quenya to her themselves because of the whole we-don't-like-Elves thing but realistically they'd probably need an interpreter, like some old scholar who would 'officially' know Quenya because the old records would be written in it.

- Halbrand has money? His own, or stolen, or had Elendil given him some? Also, if you watch you can see when he nicks the medallion off that guy's shoulder.

- out and about in Numenor - nobody would build anything substantial atop a sea-arch. And you wouldn't want damp sea air around your hall of lore either or stuff would moulder.

- mural of Elros with a beard. So when a Half-elf decides to be mortal their beard just goes FOOMP and sprouts, does it? Elrond and Elros were also twins but they look nothing like each other.

- the Black Speech was the language of Mordor. Shouldn't even exist yet.

- the cryptic 'Sauron' symbol being essentially a map is as contrived as that business with the Sith dagger in The Rise of Skywalker. Earlier we see Sauron had used it as a calling-card by putting it on Finrod's body, so this makes no sense. Sauron isn't a Batman villain who'd leave mocking clues to where he is.

- Arondir speaks to the tree in Quenya. Wood-elves had their own language. (Plus of course all the High Elves in this thing should really be speaking Sindarin amongst themselves as their everyday language).

- as I've said before, Halbrand is an anti-heroic Aragorn figure and I think he'll end up being the Witch-king, if anything

- Halbrand being descended from some Easterling king would be fine, except for one thing: why is he called 'Halbrand'? They are so bad at names.

- 'Many ages ago', Galadriel says. Err... 'Long ago' would have been more the thing

- the CGI for the Warg is a bit ropy for such an expensive production. But plus marks for it being made to look so dangerous, though. However, that just makes Galadriel's earlier casual killing of a Troll all the more 'Mary Sue' by comparison.

- in the earlier episode with the hobbits picking blackberries, the critter they had to run away from didn't look like this Warg does. If that was just a wolf, it should have looked like a regular grey wolf and not some fantasy version.

- when the other Elf gets shot, shouldn't the arrows be going from behind and over to the right where the Orcs are? But no, he had to be shot in the front for that hackneyed "I'm turning around now so you can see I've been wasted" shot. Plus marks for the Orcs being evil shots, though

- on the plus side the Orcs are good, up to a point. They're on the short side and they don't like direct sunlight, so they fit the bill. But it shouldn't burn them like that, just pain their eyes and weaken them. Oh, and if Orcs are all pale (and they've obviously stuck with the Orcs-from-Elves origin) that admits that Elves should be, too.

- the Stranger is looking more and more Istari-like as he starts to get his act together. At one point (when he's peering at the star-map) the expression on his face makes him look very Gandalf-like.

- why do the Harfoots have no beasts of burden? The 'pull your cart or be left behind to die' thing isn't tenable: what's stopping them from acting like regular, sensible hobbits and settling somewhere? The carts are too small to carry all their stuff as well as enough food to last the winter, and heaven help them if it rained because they'd get bogged down. This isn't how being nomadic works.

- the preview for Ep 4 appears to completely give it away that Adar is (of course) not Sauron because you wouldn't need to ask who he is, if he had you in his power. Also I'd imagine if it were him he'd most likely make a dreadful example of Arondir to show the other prisoners what'd happen to anyone else who got bright ideas, and Arondir plainly has plot armour so that's plainly not the deal. (Way too soon to reveal who's really Sauron, too, they want to milk that dry).

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

He gets called 'low man' later but if they don't want immigrants, which they indeed did not because of the whole High Men thing, how did Numenor get to be so diverse? And why does Miriel look the way she does?

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Because diverse society is a natural state of being, haven't you known? :) They just don't want more Mexicans... ups, Middle-earthers. *sight* It's almost laughable when they frame it like this but here it is. From what I've seen, the worst part is there are some Tolkien fans who know their sh*t and recognize all these flaws, but then they're like "except I can never say anything about ethnicity and skin color matters because that would be racist and I stand against you all, racists!" Which is giving a show a very undeserved free pass in this area.

The warg is funny because you immediately notice the awkward movements right after it appears, like it's a C grade monster movie or something. I like the looks though or at least the general idea behind it but... it's still kind of awkward. Everyone complains about CGI in Hobbit movies but somehow they managed to make it look and move worse in RoP and some people don't even bat an eye. Strange

So far the biggest highlight for me is the soundtrack, but only after I check it out separately and dissociate from what I've seen on screen. Minus Halbrand theme and Harfoots theme (which are like SUPER SUPER generic, imo), it's really an interesting crossover, a little inspired by Shore, but also a bit of game industry influence in there (can hear some Shadow of Mordor vibes for orcs, for example) and tv medium approach with wider range of styles. Initially wasn't impressed but it could have worked VERY well, I must say. If only it was paired with anything good on screen... My favorite dichotomy is the Numenorean theme because it sounds like something out of Anno game that should play in some of their oriental coastal dwellings near Umbar and Harad, not... in the capitol on the island, which should have been more neutral. But there is a high possibility oriental coastal dwellings are actually what the composer had imagined as something where we might be actually going in the series, I doubt he knew the entire script and characters. Or Galadriel's theme... which isn't that bad after dissociation.. I don't know, probably he imagined more smile and fairy magical aura? Because certainly not 100% sword angriness... because this music is like completely off when they pair it with the actual character... But the winner of "the most wasted" goes to Sauron's cue, undoubtedly. There could have been a real impact if these pieces played to stuff that actually matters - sorcerers, marching hosts in some Eastern lands, mysterious happenings that are smartly written, Sauron actually being a leader under his bad guy form, corrupted kings of actual kingdoms doing their thing, you name it - oh but no, instead they just spam it everywhere. The characters march to investigate? Evil Sauron music! Unimpressive village? Same music! There is a sword that's supposed to be a "mystery" but clearly belongs to Sauron? Evil Sauron music! There is some random exchange and transition of scenes? Completely randomly: Evil Sauron music! Gosh, that sort of musical waste/mismatch I've seen only in a small number of things so you just know it's bad when you hear it. Kind of makes you wish someone took McCreary's music and put it in a better written show where they won't be wasted :P

I see two possibilities - they might make Halbrand into a Nazgul, or he might be the king who eventually breaks his oath to Isildur.

Either way, he will leave Numenor hating the Numenoreans, who have treated him cruelly after he tried to reach out to them.

There's no contradiction in Numenoreans having diverse skin colors.

If elves and hobbits and dorfs come in a variety of colors, why shouldn't the houses of the Edain who fought alongside the Eldar?

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Originally Posted by LagunaD2

There's no contradiction in Numenoreans having diverse skin colors.

If elves and hobbits and dorfs come in a variety of colors, why shouldn't the houses of the Edain who fought alongside the Eldar?

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There is no contradiction in diverse skin colors. Why shouldn't the people of Far Harad who were never engaged in Beleriand stuff come in variety of colors? (white, brown, pale, of Middle-eastern and Asian disposition all at once).

Oh wait, but they erased them in this completely.

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Originally Posted by LagunaD2

There's no contradiction in Numenoreans having diverse skin colors.

If elves and hobbits and dorfs come in a variety of colors, why shouldn't the houses of the Edain who fought alongside the Eldar?

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So you're saying one obviously contrived thing (Numenor showing modern diversity) makes sense because of another even more contrived thing (token race-swapped Elf and Dwarf)? Hardly. And as for the hobbits, real nomadic peoples aren't diverse like that so it's completely random. Don't even get me started on why they've been given mock-Irish accents on top of that.

While RoP leaves out Beleriand, the focus on where Morgoth & Co. used to hang out (where Angband would have been) remains in the far north of the 'European' bit of Middle-earth. That;'s what Galadirel was doing poking around in ruins in Forodwaith. The Elves live in the 'European' bit as well so guess where the war was? Still in the same general vicinity Tolkien imagined it, so much like in the Sil the war was a northern 'European' one, not a world war (the idea of a world war doesn't even work in an 'ancient' setting, it's a modern thing). So the idea of the Edain being so wildly diverse and hence the Numenoreans being like that as well simply does not work.

The whole reason we have racial diversity to begin with is that people diversified over a long, long time because they were separated from each other by long distances or geographical barriers like mountains, deserts, seas and oceans and were living in very different places, In an 'ancient' setting like this one, those barriers of distance and geography would remain and so you wouldn't magically get any one place showing modern diversity, and the local diversity you'd get would always happen for a reason: migrations, trade, empires etc. Always for a reason, never 'just because' at random. So please, don't try to pretend RoP makes any kind of sense - they don't care about world-building, they're literally just ticking off boxes on a checklist.

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

So you're saying one obviously contrived thing (Numenor showing modern diversity) makes sense because of another even more contrived thing (token race-swapped Elf and Dwarf)?

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Precisely.

The people of Numenor (and the other fantasy races) show modern diversity because the pool of actors from which the cast was drawn is diverse.

In RoP (unlike our world), the color of a character's skin signifies nothing of importance about them.

What would be contrived would be to insist on a homogeneous cast and exclude many actors from consideration, when characters' skin color is unimportant to the story.