Tracking an Old Goat

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Originally Posted by Hurin

This derail is priceless/classic. ;)

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Indeed. On the other hand, what more is there to be said on the original subject? ;)

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Originally Posted by Hurin

This derail is priceless/classic. ;)

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Isn't it, though? It may actually be even more interesting than the original post. Of course, what would I know, I'm just an idiot who will probably screw this deed up even though I already know about this problem. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Gripn

Those who claim that there's nothing with the quest wrongly assume that those of us who failed to complete the quest either rushed through the quest or are too stupid to follow clear instructions.

To me, the heart of the matter is that the warning message reads, "Advancing this quest will no longer allow you to summon Andreg and will cancel any quests bestowed by him that are underway", when it should have read something like, "You have not yet completed all the quests that can be bestowed by Andreg. Advancing this quest will prevent him from bestowing further quests upon you, and will cancel any quests bestowed by him that are underway".

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Changing the text to read that.. that there are things we haven't done.. would have gone a long way to help.

But yeah, there's not much to be said from here about it. It's just one deed, 5 Turbine Points (I think?) and not part of a Meta deed.

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Originally Posted by coot

You started off ok but your defense of all things Turbine is getting tiresome. So you really think they should be locked from some content just because they didn't read something?

I read almost everything unless I'm grouped or I've played too long and my eyes are just too tired, regardless I want folks to be able to do everything they want to. I'm not a raider in this game but I don't begrudge raids. (I just don't like crafting or legendaries as part of exclusive raid loot since they have there own extensive leveling systems.) I read the lore, but don't mind if others dont.

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Whether you read it all or not - and I do, and did in this instance too - there's just too much unpredictable about the way this quest is implemented.

1. I couldn't tell how many quests were there to be found until I completed one and got the deed to pop up. If I don't choose to, or can't stay around to, complete one of the quests, I haven't any idea how many there are. You MUST complete one and turn it in before the deed shows up. The deed could easily be issued when the quest is first taken.

2. I followed the instructions and STILL couldn't get the traps one to trigger, even though I saw it on the list, saw the traps on the ground, and even stepped in one on purpose thinking that might trigger it. It didn't. The trigger points do not trigger consistently, and to expect that each and every player is going to trigger each and every one in exactly the right order is asking a bit much of the technology. Some players are going to miss trigger points, and that should be taken into consideration in the design of the quest.

3. Andreg ran off several times - behind me - resetting his track I believe. One time he aggro'd 3 mobs in the process. That was almost more than we together could handle, but we did manage to do it. Another time he did this, I didn't notice, and since there's no icon on the radar for him, had zero clue where in the heck he had gone. I had to wait, in combat mode, for him to either show up with his mobs or let him die, not knowing if that would kill my quest chances or not. He must have died because I finally fell out of combat and he did not come back. Nothing bad happened, I just summoned him again, but I didn't know that until it was over and I was worried the whole time. All quest NPCs need to be represented on the radar with the quest NPC icon.

4. I "accidentally" triggered the ONE quest that ends the chain. It doesn't trigger an end when all the quests are completed, it triggers the end when you hit THE quest that triggers the end. So now Andreg is following me with a bright gold ring, and I can no longer tell in any way when I've triggered one of my missing quests - I had to keep talking to him over and over again just to see if he opened a quest. At that one trigger point he thinks the quest is over, and that's that. The only redeeming value of him having a gold ring is that he shows up on the radar. :p Something needs to be done to keep Andreg from having that gold completion ring when the player chooses not to end the quest.

5. As far as I could tell, Andreg won't aggro onto the mob you're fighting until the mob is on top of you unless the mob is an archer. He will go attack a ranged mob, but won't go attack anything else until it gets to you, even if the little aggro icon goes off over his head. There's no reason he can't be set to run to a mob that you're fighting at range, especially since he's aware that it's been aggro'd.

I managed to complete this series, but I can see how many others wouldn't. That gold ring is pretty dang convincing no matter what the text says. But I have to say that it wasn't fun, it was a chore trying to figure out what the right keys were to make it work.

All in all, this could have been a really fun quest. I wanted it to be, I'm sure it was designed to be. And I honestly applaud the diversity and creativity of it. But no matter what the developers say or have said, this quest series has issues. To deny that it does only infuriates the player base who have struggled through those issues, some of whom have come up short.

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Originally Posted by Ellis

Changing the text to read that.. that there are things we haven't done.. would have gone a long way to help.

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Ironically, this is exactly the reason --with the best of intentions-- that Berephon added the deed. He was trying to help us not miss quests. It was intended to give those aware of its purpose some idea that they have found all the quests and can now safely move on and dismiss Andreg. I suspect the deed was used instead of text within the quest because the deed didn't require a widget to be coded that would dynamically update the quest text according to your current progress within the quest line. But of course, since it's not clear to those without prior knowledge of this issue what the deed's purpose truly is (a "checklist" for Andreg's hidden quests), many people assume the quests listed on it will be bestowed later by others and feel safe in dismissing Andreg so long as they have heeded the letter of his warning (that "underway" quests will be cancelled).

I do seem to recall other quests in the game that are essentially "container quests" directing you to finish several other lesser quests before turning in the "container" one. Assuming there's no other factors of which I'm unaware, it seems that such a "container" quest would have been the better choice to use in some fashion here vs a deed.

Best,

H

Back to the non responding dev's is anything going to be done to amend the Tracking an Old Goat deed so people can complete it.

Yes or No answer is what is needed.

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Originally Posted by Gripn

To me, the heart of the matter is that the warning message reads,

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Even then I don't think this is the true problem. Some players just don't read the text, or they accidentally hit "continue" because there's not "cancel" button. The problem I think is that you can't re-acquire the quests later.

If you make it so that you can not continue without all quests it will seriously annoy many players who just want to get on with the game (and this does gate later quests in the region).

The same style of quest was used in the Evendim revamp. It has some pluses and minuses.

I think we can solve this problem in Gravenwood by borrowing/tweaking from Evendim. Keep quests in a chain because I like that idea (I know that others do not though). But allow us to reacquire him from the main quest hub after the story quest lines are over. I don't remember if Andreg dies or not at the moment, but lets say he's just badly injured and when the story line is over he's back at rohirrim camp recovering. Then you can talk to him and get a copy of his whistle again. Then get rid of the deed too! Once you have the ability to reacquire the quests you no longer need the deed.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

If you make it so that you can not continue without all quests it will seriously annoy many players who just want to get on with the game (and this does gate later quests in the region).

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Say what? None of Andreg's discoverable quests gate anything else. They aren't even needed to complete the zone quest deed.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

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Originally Posted by Lazlo_Hollyfeld

Just so everybody knows, this does NOT always work. I have completed "Dark and Lonely Forest" and "Eyes in the forest" but none in the middle. I found out about this permanent-fail situation too late. I just spent over an hour waiting for someobdy to show up at the quest-start campsite and finally got somebody to try to help me get it done. However, I didn't get new quest rings from Andreg, and they couldn't share the quests, as I was "ineligible".

So ya, now I get a wonderfully permanent monument to turbine's poor quest design and dismissive customer service in my deed log.

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To my chagrin I found last night that my main is permanently shut off from that deed just like you.
Handing in the wrapper quest ends any chance to get the quest from other's Andreg.
Seem the way it can work is if you didnt turn in that last quest.

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Originally Posted by Morbeleg

To my chagrin I found last night that my main is permanently shut off from that deed just like you.
Handing in the wrapper quest ends any chance to get the quest from other's Andreg.
Seem the way it can work is if you didnt turn in that last quest.

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That much was apparent to me, what was less clear was that it was a freaking multi-stage quest. I had thought that it was a separate quest that was constantly popping up Andreg's head as I ran thru Gravenwood ala Benny Hill. I'd thought that it was talking to Saraedin that was the cutoff- I could cancel the quest/keep it in limbo and find the final cue for the deed.

Simple fix- make the quest cancelable/repeatable/daily sort of scouting thing. In retrospect the NPC quest giver concept is quite novel, but it also needs to be thought of from the perspective of a gamer. If a gamer sees the words NPC, travel, journey or dangerous in their cursory quest objective scan they will immediately think escort quest. Escort quests are the quintessential PITA bread and butter of RPG's and anyone with years of experience will try and do anything to make it easier. In my case I did the logical thing, rode to the scouting site, summoned the escort and rode to the Rohirrim camp.

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Originally Posted by PackOfIdiots

@ararax2

That gets back to understanding what makes a pattern the best pattern. You're looking for things that are unlikely to happen by chance in any set of words, but rather indicate a designed list. Things dealing with letter count or simple presence are weak. That class of pattern will emerge in any list. I'd also argue that 1) doggerel can be a physical object, although it need not be and 2) that is still less unusual than the pattern regarded as correct on the test. It is, however, a better pattern than that found by the original poster. Part of taking tests is understanding the intent of the test designers.

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Well I would think that Doggerel is a Noun as Poem is a Noun, it is not the physical object of ink and paper, but a non physical thing.

I just happened to think that animal names in the words is the utmost in lazy for designing a test. The problem with word association, is that finding the most common answer is not helpful in many cases, usually in the workforce finding a non common answer is more important, so we are teaching children to look for the most obvious answer and really crippling their critical thinking.

Aka this is why I like math. To use your mind to figure out the nature and order of the universe, rather then what some moron with a English dregree was thinking when he came up with the test.

To me true order is found in patterns of use, not random.

The fact that animal names that are un related happen to appear in the words, when the root word has nothing to do with the animal itself is statistical noise, not a pattern. Coworker, has no root in cow, there is nothing other then random chance that Cow appears in Coworker. To me this is not a pattern but random noise that has no outside use.

Whoa, where did the thread run off to? :p

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Originally Posted by ararax2

Aka this is why I like math. To use your mind to figure out the nature and order of the universe, rather then what some moron with a English dregree was thinking when he came up with the test.

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I'll actually just pull your statement out for a moment. In my first post, I described how human communication works between transmission and interpretation. Exams are a perfect example rife with communication failures due to poorly worded questions that obstruct the true intent of an exam--the intent of an academic examination is to measure what the student knows (whether by critical thinking or learning). But I can't tell you how many poorly worded math/physics/etc. questions I've seen that were written by university research professors with bad communication skills. In some but not all cases, when enough students misinterpret an exam question the same way, I've seen professors give in and give partial credit; but it's telling when a professor is so egotistical and dismissive of language skills that he fails to recognize that his own wording set up students to fail, missing the examination intent.

To craft instructional text with clarity is actually both an art and science; it's much easier than one thinks to convert text intended to guide into text that actually obstructs. The vice-versa can be true as well.

The parallel to quest text is clear in this particular circumstance: The intention of LotRO quest text is twofold--to tell a story and to guide (objective -> reward). I think Turbine has the former part down pat. For the most part, the latter intent is also realized most of the time, though I think the quest tracker itself actually confuses some people (e.g. underground rings, different direction from the text, etc.). The "Tracking an Old Goat" deed/quest chain text has proven in this and related threads alone by the attention garnered that there are very real issues with the execution of the guiding text, quest behavior, and UI bit.

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Originally Posted by Trilwych

I'll actually just pull your statement out for a moment. In my first post, I described how human communication works between transmission and interpretation.

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While we're pulling statements out to make germane comments (which you did, by the way).... Robert A. Heinlein once described a class he was required to take at the US Naval Academy on Order Writing.

A student would be given the information on which to base a written order. Once written, the entire class was challenged to find ways that the order--as written--could be misinterpreted. If the class could find a way to misinterpret the order, the student writing got an F for the day. If class *couldn't* find a way to misconstrue the order, he got an A.

Now, rather clearly, constructing quest text for LoTRO doesn't rise to level required by that class, not can the results be nearly as devastating under the wrong circumstances, but the principles are the same.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

This is so messed up. I missed it on my main since I never got the Hunting q. I have two other 75 who still have the whistle, since none of them have gotten all quests (they lack different ones mind you) and today I run alt 4 and got all quests and the deed within 30 minutes despite going to the same places. Horrible horrible deed.

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Originally Posted by Trilwych

Whoa, where did the thread run off to? :p



I'll actually just pull your statement out for a moment. In my first post, I described how human communication works between transmission and interpretation. Exams are a perfect example rife with communication failures due to poorly worded questions that obstruct the true intent of an exam--the intent of an academic examination is to measure what the student knows (whether by critical thinking or learning). But I can't tell you how many poorly worded math/physics/etc. questions I've seen that were written by university research professors with bad communication skills. In some but not all cases, when enough students misinterpret an exam question the same way, I've seen professors give in and give partial credit; but it's telling when a professor is so egotistical and dismissive of language skills that he fails to recognize that his own wording set up students to fail, missing the examination intent.

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Agreed, the only fault in such a situation is to assume there is no fault, and refuse to react to such.
But I also can not stand professors who use multiple choice.
Things will get garbled, multiple choice prevents the professor from noticing if the student is wrong, or pursuing a valid line of reasoning.

Well I have been running around for over an hour looking for the area where the hunting the hounds quest starts. If anyone knows can you post it. I have even been around the named hound and clicked on the ranger like every 5 steps with no luck.

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Originally Posted by whheydt

While we're pulling statements out to make germane comments (which you did, by the way).... Robert A. Heinlein once described a class he was required to take at the US Naval Academy on Order Writing.

A student would be given the information on which to base a written order. Once written, the entire class was challenged to find ways that the order--as written--could be misinterpreted. If the class could find a way to misinterpret the order, the student writing got an F for the day. If class *couldn't* find a way to misconstrue the order, he got an A.

Now, rather clearly, constructing quest text for LoTRO doesn't rise to level required by that class, not can the results be nearly as devastating under the wrong circumstances, but the principles are the same.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

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That reminds me of this quick "test" of confidence in a statement. Person A makes statement. Person A is asked "Are you positive that you are correct?" Person A replies "Absolutely". Person A is then asked "May I shoot you if you are wrong?" Person A replies "Of course not!". "Then you aren't that positive, are you?"

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Originally Posted by Hrodberht

That reminds me of this quick "test" of confidence in a statement. Person A makes statement. Person A is asked "Are you positive that you are correct?" Person A replies "Absolutely". Person A is then asked "May I shoot you if you are wrong?" Person A replies "Of course not!". "Then you aren't that positive, are you?"

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Good one. At some risk of straying over the line of what topics are permitted... If someone tells you the world will end on a given date, ask them if they will deed over their house, car(s), and bank accounts to you effective the day after the world is supposed to end...

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

For anyone else trying to find information, here's quick collection of useful points buried in this uber-thread.

Summary:

The basic tips are to start the quest as soon as you get the whistle, don't mount up, follow the quest tracker ring on your minimap for Andreg's quests in a bee-line (but if that fails, try to find the coordinates, and run around A LOT). Check your deed log and add Andreg's deed to the quest tracker if you have deed-to-tracker disabled like I do.

If you get the single "continue" button with red warning text, hit ESC or close the window manually; if you do accidentally click "continue," don't turn in the quests--you can still pick up missing quests from someone else's Andreg. Andreg's quests do not affect the Gravenwood quest deed or other tied #/# quest deeds.

Also, this is "WAI" the same way the 4th Anniversary was "WAI"--poorly implemented without taking into account player behaviors and diverse ways of playing (nearly all properly reading the quest text, to boot); at least the 4th Anniv was "fixed" with a ton of lotteries. Neat idea for a quest chain, but needs to be tweaked.

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Originally Posted by Fillur

Manually running around with Andreg stuck on the "continue" quest problem

just found Cruel Traps at 81.6s, 12.0w

edit: and Hunting the Pack at 83.0s, 13.8w

edit: got deed

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Originally Posted by fett666

2 more

Orc Mischief 81.6s, 12.4w

Lost Caws 82.8s, 13.9w

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Originally Posted by Shrelana

Just so you all know, it is possible to finish the Gravenwood quest deed w/o finishing Andreg, I just handed in Bearer of Ill News and popped the deed from 26/27 to 27/27.

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Originally Posted by Grhysli

OK I started this quest in Amlangs camp.
Once he gave me the quest I immediately used the whistle to call Andreg.
As soon as he appeared he had a quest ring above his head.

Location 83.1s, 14.6w (1) Grave Corruption & (2) Eyes in the Forest (bestowed in Amlangs camp)

Location 83.0s, 13.1w (3) Lost Caws

Location 83.0s, 13.8w (4) Hunting the Pack

Location 81.9s, 12.3w (5) Cruel Traps

Location 81.9s, 12.3w (6) Orc Mischief

7th quest location is for Scouting the Path and I forgot to write down the location when I got it bestowed.
One thing to note is that the location that completes the Scouting the Path quest has a named hound nearby that drops a quest bestowal item when you kill the Hound. Quest can be turned in to Saeradan at the rangers camp.

(snip)

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Originally Posted by Lointje

A little tip for those of you who pressed continue quest, but didn't hand the final one in yet.

I read all the quests on my main character, I really do enjoy the stories, especially in Isengard. But english is my 3rd language , so I misunderstood the phrase: "Warning, if you advance this quest...". I thought it meant: if you complete this quest, but, obviously now, it does not.

So I stumbled upon this thread and went to the location of the hounds. When some guy with his andreg passed me, I noticed the ring above him. I could pick up the quest. So I had a quick chat with the guy and we went to the trap place and I could pick up that quest too. After completing it, I could hand it in at his guard, and managed to finish the deed.

So all you need is a friendly passenger, one who is about to receive superior tools of the woodsman :)

PS: I doubt you can still do this if you handed in the darkness quest already. It does work if you only pressed continue, cause the quests don't cancel yet. Only andreg disappears.

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Originally Posted by greendarner

(snipped)
What none of you seem to have said in the first 12-13 pages of this thread is the name of the quest you SHOULD NOT TURN IN until you have the others for the deed. That quest is Eyes in the Forest. This is the one that will dismiss Andreg.

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(Red emphasis mine)

So, no mention of a fix for this at all in the new patch notes.

It's pretty safe to say that Turbine absolutely does not care what players think.

Keep fighting the good fight, Turbine. Maybe one day these pesky customer people will leave you alone, to make all the horrible decisions you want, and stop spending their money on your games.



Edit:
I just wanted to say that this post earlier in the thread is possibly the best post in the thread:

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Originally Posted by PackOfIdiots

This thread captures in a nutshell one of Turbine's greatest weaknesses as a company. It's the same weakness that kept radiance around for so long.

When customers overwhelmingly express that they don't like a feature, most companies attempt to address that by adjusting the feature, or removing it. Turbine however become overly defensive, digs in, and tries to tell customers why they SHOULD like the feature, and becomes insulting, condescending or hostile when that inevitably doesn't work.

Marketing aside, you don't get to tell customers what they're supposed to want. That's not how it works.

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Just look at it as a gotcha quest. If you one of the people that just mounts up and rides to the next ring you miss out.

Need to walk with Andreg killing stuff along the way. Its that simple.

He is a boon companion. Take your time and enjoy it. Unlike our skirm soldiers who are worthless this guy rocks. Get a group six and you could do this 5 levels to low. Andreg is quest level not yours. Have six people at lvl 66 doing this and you have six lvl 71 NPC's kicking tail as you walk along.

Stay and farm the moment.

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Originally Posted by Trilwych

you can still pick up missing quests from someone else's Andreg

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If this is true it is a recent change, the change that many have been asking for.

Thankfully I did not miss out on any of the quests. But I did try and let a kinnie do as you are saying when I went through with my second toon. He could not get the quests at that time.

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Originally Posted by Gandie2

If this is true it is a recent change, the change that many have been asking for.

Thankfully I did not miss out on any of the quests. But I did try and let a kinnie do as you are saying when I went through with my second toon. He could not get the quests at that time.

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Agreed, this is great if they now allow you to grab it from another Andreg. Also making it shareable would be awesome.

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Originally Posted by ararax2

Agreed, this is great if they now allow you to grab it from another Andreg. Also making it shareable would be awesome.

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Sorry, but it's not true.

A few days ago, I hooked up with two individuals who had not yet done any part of the quest. I was in the fellowship, and with them from the very beginning, when they got their whistles, summoned their two Andregs, and started the series. I followed them all the way through all 7 quests for the deed. At the proper points, they were able to get the quests, but I was not. Their Andregs totally ignored me. They tried to share the quests, but were told I was ineligible.

Disappointing. If anyone claims to be able to do this, then please be very, very specific about how you were able to do so, what your level was, what the state of your own quest line is, etc. If this works, I suspect it is limited to those who have hit continue, but did not turn in the final item.

Finally a reward for those who read the quest log...

Oh wait... :p

35 pages long. What is so hard about doing something about it? Does it cost too much to fix? Then say it already. Pretending that's all good in the 'hood it's not the right approach with adults. May work with 5 year olds though.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by ararax2

Agreed, this is great if they now allow you to grab it from another Andreg. Also making it shareable would be awesome.

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AFAIC, u can only grab the quests from another Andreg if you haven't finished the chain.

On Bullroarer currently Saeradan reissues the quest "Seeking a Solution." This was a quest with a serious issue and not being able to continue it prevented players from continuing with a LOT of quests in the region, a much worse issue than Tracking an Old Goat. I am very glad that the people who were impacted by this now have a solution.

But is there any reason why Saeradan can't reissue these quests as well? I ran all over the area hopinghopinghoping there was a solution some where on Bullroarer for our friend the Old Goat. But there isn't.

./sadface

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Originally Posted by Lurkerinthemist

On Bullroarer currently Saeradan reissues the quest "Seeking a Solution." This was a quest with a serious issue and not being able to continue it prevented players from continuing with a LOT of quests in the region, a much worse issue than Tracking an Old Goat. I am very glad that the people who were impacted by this now have a solution.

But is there any reason why Saeradan can't reissue these quests as well? I ran all over the area hopinghopinghoping there was a solution some where on Bullroarer for our friend the Old Goat. But there isn't.

./sadface

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It would make more sense to put the missing quests on the Andreg that is still standing outside the Slade of Shadows even after he's. . . well, I'll leave that out since it's a spoiler.

While I understand why Turbine generally keeps silent most of the time (while we aren't "five year-olds," the vast majority of the community behaves as though we are), and I don't expect a public response, and I don't want Berephon to appear to appease those who have been. . . er, less than charitable in this thread. . .

I do hope that Berephon by now sees that his initial impression of the root cause here was incorrect. Rather than inattentive players, the root cause is a deed that was put into the game with only the target audience of beta testers already aware of this chain's mechanics in mind. Unfortunately the red warning text at the point of no return only makes sense and conveys a proper warning to those who actually would not need it. To everyone else, it merely says: "If you have any quests from me currently underway, finish them first." It does not explain that there might be other quests from Andreg out there (which are listed on the deed) that you will not be able to obtain, thus locking you out of completing the deed forever.

I realize it's just a deed. But as time passes and I complete this on my alts, it becomes more and more annoying that I will never have this deed completed on my main which I hoped one day to be my "deed completionist" toon. And, to be blunt, the dismissive response from Berephon makes the "burn" here somewhat worse. It should be clear by now that the problem was not with people not reading, but with the quest line's design and the fact that Andreg's "red text warning," in context and with no prior knowledge, does not actually convey critical information to those not already familiar with this quest line's mechanics and potential pitfalls (via beta testing or being the designer!).

I really hope that Turbine/Berephon reverse course here, see how this quest line operates from the perspective of an average player without prior knowledge, and implement a fix for all the people who did read the quests, did see the deed, did heed Andreg's warning and finish all "underway" quests, and still fell into a broken deed state. . . because at no point is it made clear that the deed contains quests that Andreg never even offered to us. We finish all the quests he gave us (as directed), and naturally (per long-established precedent) assume the deed will be finished/completable at a later time via quests bestowed by others.

--H

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Originally Posted by Hurin

It would make more sense to put the missing quests on the Andreg that is still standing outside the Slade of Shadows even after he's. . . well, I'll leave that out since it's a spoiler.

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Yes...except that after what you're referring to, he isn't there any more.

There is, on Bullroarer, a reflecting pool at the Scout Camp. I haven't checked, but I wonder if you can call up Andreg and complete the quests through that....

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

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Originally Posted by whheydt

Yes...except that after what you're referring to, he isn't there any more.

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Sorry, but you are incorrect. He is still there. Both on live and on Bullroarer. Standing where he gives you the slade quests. I wish you would confirm things for yourself before telling people they are wrong. I would not have made such a suggestion had I not noticed that he is still there long after. . . er. . . what happens to him in the instanced content.

He's still there on two of my toons, on both live and on Bullroarer.

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Originally Posted by Gandie2

If this is true it is a recent change, the change that many have been asking for.

Thankfully I did not miss out on any of the quests. But I did try and let a kinnie do as you are saying when I went through with my second toon. He could not get the quests at that time.

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No. Don't quote out of context. It doesn't help.

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

Sorry, but it's not true.

A few days ago, I hooked up with two individuals who had not yet done any part of the quest. I was in the fellowship, and with them from the very beginning, when they got their whistles, summoned their two Andregs, and started the series. I followed them all the way through all 7 quests for the deed. At the proper points, they were able to get the quests, but I was not. Their Andregs totally ignored me. They tried to share the quests, but were told I was ineligible.

Disappointing. If anyone claims to be able to do this, then please be very, very specific about how you were able to do so, what your level was, what the state of your own quest line is, etc. If this works, I suspect it is limited to those who have hit continue, but did not turn in the final item.

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There was no change--you guys missed the point of my post by quoting out of context and not reading the whole thing. The point is not turning in that "continue" quest. So my post and all the previous ones it cites are correct; don't confuse the issue.



As for a design fix on Bullroarer... I just assume it will be impossible to complete this deed on Andreg even after a certain point due to (spoiler) as Hurin and whheydt mentioned. Now the reflecting pool is a very interesting idea, but doesn't that require an instance? Shifting to another NPC seems like a logical choice...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GodzillaX8

So, no mention of a fix for this at all in the new patch notes.

It's pretty safe to say that Turbine absolutely does not care what players think.

Keep fighting the good fight, Turbine. Maybe one day these pesky customer people will leave you alone, to make all the horrible decisions you want, and stop spending their money on your games.

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No, and after that developer's flippant response days ago I wouldn't expect a fix.

They tried to make a 'statement' with this Gotcha quest, except that statement is lost behind horrible implementation and even worse quest text descriptioni. In order to fix a problem one must first admit that there IS a problem, and if they are even willing to do that there can be no fix. Be sure take stuff like this into consideration come december twentieth.

Hey, Berephon:

How am I supposed to maintain a "bee-line to Saeradan" as you mentioned, to get all the quests, when Andreg keeps running off and aggroing things I'm trying to avoid?

Please let me know. Thanks.


Amended: I think I have all the quests now. Maybe. Even after reading all these pages and more besides, I'm not entirely sure I'm not in the process of screwing this up.

So fine, okay, leave the quest line the way it is.

JUST LET ME KILL ANDREG WHEN IT'S DONE.

And take off that "Ally of" title, 'cause he ain't no friend of mine. K?


Amended again: Apparently, when Andreg kills the things he aggroes against my will, the count goes toward my quests... and when he dies in the process, I can feign death until the mob goes away and then resummon him, no harm done.

So effectively, I can let Andreg do his own freakin' quests.

I'm fairly sure it goes against the spirit of the game to let the Ranger I'm supposedly "helping" die... but hey, whatever works, right?

Still. Until I can kill him myself, I will not be satisfied. The rest of y'all can go after Saruman; Andreg's head is MINE.


--Apparently, milestoning to Galtrev because I don't dare go repair armor in Gravenwood lest I screw up The One Quest Of Power.

+1 to the unhappy customers list

Same issue, wasnt giving anymore quests, didn't notice deed, turned it it. At least make it so you can pick up the extra's from someone else!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

AFAIC, u can only grab the quests from another Andreg if you haven't finished the chain.

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Tried this with a kinnie yesterday: you definitely cannot pick up the quests from someone else's Andreg if you've handed in the end quest yourself, which is a damn nuisance.

Please do something about this devs, I really hate having a deed I know I'll never be able to finish...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hurin

It would make more sense to put the missing quests on the Andreg that is still standing outside the Slade of Shadows even after he's. . . well, I'll leave that out since it's a spoiler.

While I understand why Turbine generally keeps silent most of the time (while we aren't "five year-olds," the vast majority of the community behaves as though we are), and I don't expect a public response, and I don't want Berephon to appear to appease those who have been. . . er, less than charitable in this thread. . .

I do hope that Berephon by now sees that his initial impression of the root cause here was incorrect. Rather than inattentive players, the root cause is a deed that was put into the game with only the target audience of beta testers already aware of this chain's mechanics in mind. Unfortunately the red warning text at the point of no return only makes sense and conveys a proper warning to those who actually would not need it. To everyone else, it merely says: "If you have any quests from me currently underway, finish them first." It does not explain that there might be other quests from Andreg out there (which are listed on the deed) that you will not be able to obtain, thus locking you out of completing the deed forever.

I realize it's just a deed. But as time passes and I complete this on my alts, it becomes more and more annoying that I will never have this deed completed on my main which I hoped one day to be my "deed completionist" toon. And, to be blunt, the dismissive response from Berephon makes the "burn" here somewhat worse. It should be clear by now that the problem was not with people not reading, but with the quest line's design and the fact that Andreg's "red text warning," in context and with no prior knowledge, does not actually convey critical information to those not already familiar with this quest line's mechanics and potential pitfalls (via beta testing or being the designer!).

I really hope that Turbine/Berephon reverse course here, see how this quest line operates from the perspective of an average player without prior knowledge, and implement a fix for all the people who did read the quests, did see the deed, did heed Andreg's warning and finish all "underway" quests, and still fell into a broken deed state. . . because at no point is it made clear that the deed contains quests that Andreg never even offered to us. We finish all the quests he gave us (as directed), and naturally (per long-established precedent) assume the deed will be finished/completable at a later time via quests bestowed by others.

--H

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This.
I have the same problem and it's very, very annoying.
It's a poorly designed mechanic.

I wish a dev would respond to this beyond "READ THE QUESTS, LOL"

Even if they just came in and confirmed that they absolutely do not care about the players or their concerns, and that they will never change this horribly designed quest chain to allow us to complete it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whheydt

There is, on Bullroarer, a reflecting pool at the Scout Camp. I haven't checked, but I wonder if you can call up Andreg and complete the quests through that....

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That pool only offers the instances again I just looked today. It's a real shame they don't fix that. They tried something new and it was poorly implemented, plain and simple. As many have stated it goes far beyond carefully reading the quest, they read it had no open quests at the time and went on. They talk about other new features they will be adding why not talk of this new way to get quests?

Andreg had no open quests, had no quest ring on his head. How was I supposed to know there were hidden quests out there? Now had the red text been coded to tell you that you had not done his quests and should look for more I'd be less ticked, but since it said nothing of the kind I feel gypped.

This is something that Turbine needs to fix. Allow Andreg to offer missing quests at a later time. Must be fixed.:mad:

Having done this deed recently I also can say that the wording in the original starting quest is anything but clear. Not being a native English speaker I realize that I may at times misread things, so I usually take care to read and re-read quest texts, and still, hadn't I spotted this thread before and hadn't I known about the possible pitfalls with this deed, I would certainly think that my MAIN goal would be to get to the Rohirrim camp. The necessity of summoning Andreg, and more importantly, of doing quests for him on the way, was not something that I would pick up from the bestower quest text.

On the other hand, I do realize also that the developers cannot (and should not) oversimplify things, nor should they make their quest texts, which I generally enjoy, bland and blatant. Still, I would say that for this particular starting quest, some clarifying is in order.

Another problem lies with the quest/deed design. I was lucky, i.e. I was able to complete the deed without looking up the coordinates, just from having a general idea about how this deed works, but as many others pointed earlier, the expectation of the developers that the player would go in a straight line from point A to point B is poorly founded. Especially this concerns killing quests: in order to kill 10 critters of one kind and 10 critters of another kind, one has to wander, look around, move to a completely different direction, kill other mobs on the way.

Another gripe: the sequence of some of Andreg's quests was... bewildering. So, I move with him to the spot where I should collect some corrupted remains (that was third or fourth quest on the way, I don't remember now), and only after *that* he tells me that he wants me to kill some dark wolves? Excuse me? I've already killed at least half a dozen of them before we got here, and you decided to ask me to kill them only here? That was plain silly.

So yes, I add my voice to the general chorus asking to revise this deed yet again.
The purpose of this quest and deed is not clearly worded, the sequence of quests might be thought out better, as well as their particular trigger spots. It's easy to see how other people had problems with it.

The mere existence of this deed is not something that people would normally spot straight away. Upon entering a new area, a player is usually literally showered with new deeds, only the last of which is shown when one clicks that little torch icon.
The lack of "Continue later" button on the infamous warning panel with red text is also a HUGE oversight: the player is not offered any choice.

I would like to see more of such "mobile quest hubs" in the future, and hopefully the quest designers will take into account this collective feedback on design of this pilot deed.

Wait... Is there anything wrong with the deed? I thought the problem was the reading/comprehension skills (or lack of) of the players.

Wasn't this a reward for those who read the quests?

:p

I must say, though-that I did read the quest descriptions and did not rush to the end. I took some side trips when I saw something of interest and picked up the quests as they came available. However, I still managed to miss two--not by not completing them, but apparently by not having the NPC traverse the right spot to activate the quest ring. That, I think is more of an issue--if you are going to use this mechanic, have him path in such a way that either he hits all his activations, or put items of interest that would induce you to walk over to it and then activate the quest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Siegfriedpf

...or put items of interest that would induce you to walk over to it and then activate the quest.

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Now that's an excellent idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Siegfriedpf

I must say, though-that I did read the quest descriptions and did not rush to the end. I took some side trips when I saw something of interest and picked up the quests as they came available. However, I still managed to miss two--not by not completing them, but apparently by not having the NPC traverse the right spot to activate the quest ring. That, I think is more of an issue--if you are going to use this mechanic, have him path in such a way that either he hits all his activations, or put items of interest that would induce you to walk over to it and then activate the quest.

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I really liked this new mechanic. However, adding something in game to let players know where to go would be helpful. The NPC could even start saying "colder" or "warmer".....ehem. Sieg's idea here of using 'items of interest' is a good one and is an existing mechanic....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

Wait... Is there anything wrong with the deed? I thought the problem was the reading/comprehension skills (or lack of) of the players.

Wasn't this a reward for those who read the quests?

:p

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The quest warns you about unfinished quests, not about quests you didn't even pick up. I got 4 or 5 of the lot and finished them and didn't get any more. I assumed the deed might be continued somehow else, with perhaps some other NPC. Nothing warned me about the fact that there might be quests I didn't even get.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erlessa

The quest warns you about unfinished quests, not about quests you didn't even pick up. I got 4 or 5 of the lot and finished them and didn't get any more. I assumed the deed might be continued somehow else, with perhaps some other NPC. Nothing warned me about the fact that there might be quests I didn't even get.

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I think Ricardo was being facetious/sarcastic. But you're exactly right (and I think he agrees with you).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hurin

I think Ricardo was being facetious/sarcastic. But you're exactly right (and I think he agrees with you).

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You're right and I agree with you Erlessa. :)

PS: Thanks for the negative rep lol. Some people who initially replied to this thread (like they do to almost every thread) never expected it to go this long. And when proved wrong they just can't let it go).

Lol. Keep it up. And you're welcome. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Berephon

The deed is specifically there to list the quests needed to complete it. It was added because people in Beta were complaining about not knowing whether they found all the discoverables (which are completely optional and do not affect the division quest deed) or not. I am beginning to regret adding it.

There are only three discoverables, and the quest clearly indicates you cannot complete the discoverables after completing the main quest. This is no different than Annuminas. It also clearly indicates what route to follow (basically bee-line to the quest guide, which crosses the discoverable hotspots for all quests).

I cannot emphasize more to READ THE QUESTS. If you don't, then you miss what the game is all about and miss any guidance and instruction. That's not going to change.

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Wow! From this response, a customer could almost get the impression this was put in the game intentionally in such a way that people would mess up. Then a dev could come on and be all condescending and shout about how players who don't "READ THE QUESTS" deserve being punished. This, despite the fact that the way it's set up is somewhat misleading and could certainly be mis-read. I've always had the highest respect for Berephon and am just going to put this down to him/her having a bad day and taking it out on the customers.

I did it just fine on my main, but when I was bringing my primary alt through, I accidentally clicked on the wrong button even though I had read and knew about the problems. Luckily I knew not to turn it in, but I found a player with an Andreg and so was able to use his npc to complete.

Not sure why so many people in this thread are really getting such joy out of other people getting locked out of quests, but some of the posts show nothing but pure schadenfreude at other player's misfortunes.

I posted this in another thread.

Re: Tracking an Old Goat deed

After I got the warning message (which I did read, so I "passed" that part, I was dragging Andreg around trying to get the other 2 quests I didn't have yet, beofre completing a Dark and Lonely Forest. I right clicked to see if he had any other quests to give me and lagged, briefly. After this was over, Andreg was gone and the whistle was gone. The quest panel showed me as complete needing to talk to Saeradan, which I have not done yet. Can I find someone that still has Andreg to get the other 2 quests or I am just screwed?

This is broken because accidents can screw you. And the GM that I got was rude, 3 times. Told me it works as designed and file a bug report.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marswarlord

I posted this in another thread.

Re: Tracking an Old Goat deed

After I got the warning message (which I did read, so I "passed" that part, I was dragging Andreg around trying to get the other 2 quests I didn't have yet, beofre completing a Dark and Lonely Forest. I right clicked to see if he had any other quests to give me and lagged, briefly. After this was over, Andreg was gone and the whistle was gone. The quest panel showed me as complete needing to talk to Saeradan, which I have not done yet. Can I find someone that still has Andreg to get the other 2 quests or I am just screwed?

This is broken because accidents can screw you. And the GM that I got was rude, 3 times. Told me it works as designed and file a bug report.

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From what I understand, as long as you don't turn it in to Saeradan, you should be able to use another person's Andreg. Let us know for sure, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grhysli

OK I started this quest in Amlangs camp.
Once he gave me the quest I immediately used the whistle to call Andreg.
As soon as he appeared he had a quest ring above his head.

Location 83.1s, 14.6w (1) Grave Corruption & (2) Eyes in the Forest (bestowed in Amlangs camp)

Location 83.0s, 13.1w (3) Lost Caws

Location 83.0s, 13.8w (4) Hunting the Pack

Location 81.9s, 12.3w (5) Cruel Traps

Location 81.9s, 12.3w (6) Orc Mischief

7th quest location is for Scouting the Path and I forgot to write down the location when I got it bestowed.
One thing to note is that the location that completes the Scouting the Path quest has a named hound nearby that drops a quest bestowal item when you kill the Hound. Quest can be turned in to Saeradan at the rangers camp.

Hope maybe this helps some people find where the quests are all bestowed.

Best word of advice I can give is stay in the area of the forest once you start and don't leave and don't get anywhere near the ranger camp since this will make the final quest popup on Andreg and if you press continue he'll leave and you cannot finish the other quests.

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The last location you referred to is 81.7s 10.7 w. This location completes the quest Eyes in the Forest, and is also the location of Drugrir, who drops the Evil Object quest bestowal item.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sabeare

I made a ticket and got this formal answer:

We have investigated the issue you have reported and found that the functionality is working as intended. If you have concerns about the issue you reported, you may submit feedback by visiting http://www.turbine.com/support and clicking on your country’s flag.

I have read quest warning but came to close to the scout camp, so the shining ring of the last quest appeared at andreg. Once you have that ring you cannot cancel and continue with the other quests, the last ring overules the other ones.

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Actually, if you cancel out with the escape key, and resummon him back in the woods away from the camp, you can continue just fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scirocco

Sorry, but it's not true.

A few days ago, I hooked up with two individuals who had not yet done any part of the quest. I was in the fellowship, and with them from the very beginning, when they got their whistles, summoned their two Andregs, and started the series. I followed them all the way through all 7 quests for the deed. At the proper points, they were able to get the quests, but I was not. Their Andregs totally ignored me. They tried to share the quests, but were told I was ineligible.

Disappointing. If anyone claims to be able to do this, then please be very, very specific about how you were able to do so, what your level was, what the state of your own quest line is, etc. If this works, I suspect it is limited to those who have hit continue, but did not turn in the final item.

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Happened te same to me.
Missed one of the quest, didn't appear at all and I missed the deed because I had a lot of "spam buttons" down there.
I finished some of the quests, I've been offered to deliver the whistle, I've read the red text, double checked my quest log and clicked yes.
Now I'm screwed.
I've tried to follow one of my brother's alts while he had this quest, but Andreg didn't do anything for me.

This is a very stupid and infuriating issue, I now have a deed that I can't clear and it really, REALLY bothers me. I'm very disappointed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

AFAIC, u can only grab the quests from another Andreg if you haven't finished the chain.

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No.

This bothers me more now that all of my Dunland deeds are done. Every single quest was read, every advanced deed completed, and still that unfinished deed with both TP and a virture reward sits to never be completed. I have other unfinished deeds in my log... but I also will finish those some day. Unlike this one.

Just a suggestion... I can't remember what virtue this deed rewards, but I hope it doesn't count for the tally of options to level up that virtue, since there is not really an option for all those that didn't know the game code before trying to level that one up this way. I'm sure virtues are fine without this... it just make it much more difficult to miss a virtue and some TP over this.

When I did this the first time, I missed several of the deeds. Some of my Alts will never be deed completionists but my main was the first one through and he has completed just about every deed in the game. Now I'm stuck with this one unfinished and no way to ever complete it, that's beyond disappointing after investing so much time finishing all the other deeds...

Same here, my completionist main will never get it, mainly because Andreg didnt bestow the last quest and hence I thought it was acually done.
I have since completed it on two alt but two still have quests that they havent completed despite being 75 for weeks. I'm still qoing back now and then on those two trying to get the quests I lack, so far to no avail. This is sad in so many ways...

I will bump this topic, until somebody will react. Update 5 do not solve case. Where this will be solved?

I doubt that it will be 'fixed' anytime soon. The Dev's egoes are involved in this one and if they give us another way to complete it, they'll have to take the hit that it was a bad idea from the get go. Obviously that's not going to happen, so don't hold your breath for it to change.

I was caught out on this one too.
Having it in the deed log I keep thinking I can go back and complete it but it's not possible.
I would like it removed or marked as non-completable.

I suspect that there is a degree of stubbornness on the part of the relevant devs here. With his comments in this thread, the designer did somewhat back himself into a corner. No change is now possible without it looking like a climbdown and Turbine have a history of digging their heels in over unpopular issues.

To be fair, the strong tone of many of the posts here probably don't help. The quest chain and deed were clearly added in good faith, with the intention of providing innovative and enjoyable content. The insults aimed at the designer are thus unnecessary and unfair, even if the tone of his replies (while understandable) were unlikely ever to improve matters.

I played the quest line 2 days ago with my girlfriend and ... come on! It's there in red letters ...
A big warning that you can't call the guy again if you complete this quest. Doesn't that make you at least THINK? Once I saw that I double checked the collection which activated earlier and I made sure that I did get everything.
After playing in Evendim I knew how the system worked and the only difference was, that there was a collection tied to it.

I support however the suggestion to be able to remove incompletable collections.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neumi

I played the quest line 2 days ago with my girlfriend and ... come on! It's there in red letters ...A big warning that you can't call the guy again if you complete this quest. Doesn't that make you at least THINK?

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Yes. It makes you think to check that you don't have any open Andreg quests. That's all it says. It does not at all suggest that there may be Andreg quests which you don't have because you didn't walk past the 1 inch square part of the large forest where they trigger.

The deed notification icon is likely to be one of several you trigger around the same time and in any event since this is a new tech there's no reason anyone would connect a deed notification to a quest series.

It's all obvious and easy when you know how it works. All my alts have methodically worked through the chain with no problem. This is also the problem the designer seems to have - the chain was never considered through the eyes of someone just into the area, with multiple deed notifications, unfamiliar with this new way of managing a quest chain, wandering here and there mining as they go. The red text makes perfect sense when you already know what it means. But it's not clear if you're seeing it for the first time.

Actually it was exactly the same in Evendim.
You could get rid of that guy without having accepted all of his quests ... except that in Evendim you had no way to see what was still missing.
"Tracking an old goat" is a guideline to see if you are missing something. If you decide not to use it ... that's not the designers fault.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neumi

"Tracking an old goat" is a guideline to see if you are missing something. If you decide not to use it ... that's not the designers fault.

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But where did it say that Andreg was the only one that could give those quests? And that if you dismiss Andreg it was impossible to get them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neumi

Actually it was exactly the same in Evendim.

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Sure, after the revamp. How many people have ever done that? Not many. And there was no deed associated with the dude in Annuminas so there was no negative consequence to cancelling or skipping some of his quests. So that is NOT a good guide - even someone who had seen that tech in action would not have any reason to think Andreg was different, particularly since the red text at the end does not warn you that you might have missed some quests.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neumi

"Tracking an old goat" is a guideline to see if you are missing something. If you decide not to use it ... that's not the designers fault.

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No-one chose not to use the guide, don't be so silly. I know that the deed was put in during beta as a way to help people. The intention was good, but the implementation was not. The text at the end does *not* warn you that you may have undiscovered quests. And the deed notification is easy to miss, especially since there is no reason to connect it to the the chain you just started if you're seeing it all for the first time.

Edited to add:

Even if all the players who missed this and are left with a uncompletable deed only have themselves to blame, the punishment (a deed that can never be finished) is too harsh and the solution is very simple - to make the quests available from the static Andreg, or from Saerdan. Or, make the deed a hidden one which completes only when you've done all the quests.

There is a previous example here: the Mirkwood landing deed. This could not be completed at first because a quest was broken, so the requirements were changed to allow completion. Plus, the Headcount deed which at first only worked in the landing instance was changed so that post-instance Mirkeaves kills counted, ensuring the deed could be completed. Thus, TAOG is the *only* deed in the game which cannot ever be completed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neumi

I played the quest line 2 days ago with my girlfriend and ... come on! It's there in red letters ...
A big warning that you can't call the guy again if you complete this quest. Doesn't that make you at least THINK? Once I saw that I double checked the collection which activated earlier and I made sure that I did get everything.
After playing in Evendim I knew how the system worked and the only difference was, that there was a collection tied to it.

I support however the suggestion to be able to remove incompletable collections.

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A lot of people never did the Evendim one, not to mention the Evendim one was not part of normal level grind after an xpack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The-Walrus

While I agree the circumstances are confusing and chances of screwing the whole thing are pretty high, you DO get a warning about the quests, and you DO know there is a deed involved with ALL THE QUESTS LISTED.
So yes it's slightly misleading, but you DO know if you are not stupid or clicking through windows and rushing through content as fast as possible. Sorry, it's mostly your own fault.

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People did not "decide nto to use it" they did not see it there because the Forest Discovery points also started at that time.
I guess it is mostly your fault that you did not read the descriptions of what the various problems were.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neumi

Actually it was exactly the same in Evendim.
You could get rid of that guy without having accepted all of his quests ... except that in Evendim you had no way to see what was still missing.
"Tracking an old goat" is a guideline to see if you are missing something. If you decide not to use it ... that's not the designers fault.

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No it's the designers fault that when you accept the quest, and you venture into the forest you get TWO deeds starting. Also the fact that there had NEVER been a system like this in the past means that it was semi random if people noticed it was happening.
Add in the fact that one of the quests had an area the size of a postage stamp, and it auto completed if you did not select the x button, means that this is a quest line that needs repair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neumi

Actually it was exactly the same in Evendim.

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No it wasn't. Not for me. I finished Evendim literally YEARS ago. What you are referring to is part of the revamp that only SOME of the player base is familiar with. There are also 38 pages of posts that explain WHY its not quite as simple as reading the red text. Its great that a few were able to figure it out, but obviously there was some confusion over the quest/deed delivery.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The-Walrus

...tedious insults...

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It has been explained calmly and clearly throughout the thread why the deed is easy to miss. To recap:

1. It triggers at the exact same moment as the exploration deed
2. There is no reason to expect that the quest chain has a deed associated with it, so no reason to click the deed notification
3. The red text at the end makes no reference to quests you may not have picked up, only to quests you may already have open

I'm willing to bet that you did not go into this completely blind like so many in this thread. You already knew that the deed existed. And you cheated anyway by Googling it. Given this last fact, for you to abuse people who relied on the inadequate in-game information is really quite funny.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hucklebarry

No it wasn't. Not for me. I finished Evendim literally YEARS ago

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You can still go there and play the new quests. And you will see, it's quite the same.
I too finished Evendim before the update, but I went back there to see what they added.

And really ... Tracking An Old Goat is a lot more obvious then the Evendim quest line. It really is.

About 2 collections starting at the same time .... well, you DO know that new collections are marked as "new" until you click them to see what they are about. At least until logout, I don't know what happens then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

2. There is no reason to expect that the quest chain has a deed associated with it, so no reason to click the deed notification
3. The red text at the end makes no reference to quests you may not have picked up, only to quests you may already have open

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2. valid point, except if someone checks his deeds once in a while
3. actually I was not aware it made a reference to any quest I had open. But since it said that the NPC would go bye bye once I finish this quest I made sure I had accepted everything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

It has been explained calmly and clearly throughout the thread why the deed is easy to miss. To recap:

1. It triggers at the exact same moment as the exploration deed
2. There is no reason to expect that the quest chain has a deed associated with it, so no reason to click the deed notification
3. The red text at the end makes no reference to quests you may not have picked up, only to quests you may already have open

I'm willing to bet that you did not go into this completely blind like so many in this thread. You already knew that the deed existed. And you cheated anyway by Googling it. Given this last fact, for you to abuse people who relied on the inadequate in-game information is really quite funny.

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Insults? olol... Barely.
Cheating? LOL!
Seriously, what stuff are you on?...
I already knew the deed existed because it bloody popped up on me on the damn game screen just like for everybody else! AND since I usually (I admit I sometimes just blindly click, too) do some thinking, I did put 1 and 1 together. Deed lists what, eight quests? Ok, hm... This dude that's following me gave me a quest, and there is a red text warning me about not being able to finish them if I click on this here. Hm, the quests are listed in the deed - hey it is all connected together! Where the hell do I get the rest of the quests? I've spent 30 minutes running around and there's nothing at all. That's screwed up, Turbine is playing hide and seek with us. I don't need that, let's see if someone managed to find some of those. *opens Google up and finds some coordinates*

Is this REALLY so hard to do?.... I just don't get it, no trolling. This is how I did it.

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Originally Posted by The-Walrus

Is this REALLY so hard to do?.... I just don't get it, no trolling. This is how I did it.

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We get it. You are smart and all the people posting in this thread and asking in advice channels and kinchat and everywhere else are lazy, stupid, impatient, unable to read or some combination of the above.

Your posts are like those by people popping into bug report threads stating that "I don't know what the problem is, it works for me" despite all the evidence that it doesn't work for other people. Like them, if you're not trolling then I have no idea what you hope to achieve.

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Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

We get it. You are smart and all the people posting in this thread and asking in advice channels and kinchat and everywhere else are lazy, stupid, impatient, unable to read or some combination of the above.

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Apparently so.
But really, I believe I just pay attention more than them and think twice.

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Originally Posted by The-Walrus

Hey I did the Goat deed on two chars and I finished it without having to cry on 38 pages. The only real problem was having to google locations for about three of the quests. I didn't screw the deed up because I wasn't blind and used my brain.

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You know a lot of people did the quest on opening day or opening week... you know before it was "on google" People have to do it before those people put it on google. There was no Guide for most people to follow.

I'm almost convinced that your behavior in this thread is designed to get the thread closed.

There was not information on google for those of us who were the first to do the Isengard quests. Developmentally speaking, a player should normally be able to complete quests without resorting to search engines online. When the deed "Tracking an Old Goat" popped up, I had NO idea that the elements in that deed were all part of one quest line since most deeds in Lotro consist of a combination of different places, quests, discoveries, etc.

After turing in your first quest to Aldreg or whatever the NPC's name is.. sorry for typos.. he has a ring over his head the entire time since that ring is to turn in the final quest.. therefore, you never see a new ring for a new quest ... that is IF you just get lucky enough to cross the exact coordinates for him to give you another quest. The only way to know is to constantly click on him to see if there are more quests available..and of course we had NO way to know that there were more quests or that we had to stand on a certain coordinate for the quest to show up. Grrrrrrrr.. makes me upset whenever I think about it. I keep hoping that Turbine will update my deed or allow me to go back and do that one quest I am missing.. "hunting the pack" or something like that.. I forget now.

When you turn in the whistle it does NOT warn you that there may be other quests.. it only warns you that if you have any underway and turn this in that you lose them.. so of course if you have none underway.. as most of did not.. then we assume all is ok.. FAIL in game design.. sorry DEVS.. hate to say that since I love your work but there are some bugs that need to be tweaked and someone needs to admit that. Thanks. (I like the quest line.. it's fun.. but please fix this issue)

GM Customer support has been horrible.. if you submit more than one ticket on the same subject, you're threatened with a ban.. great way to treat adult customers who spend too much money on your product.. bravo!

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Originally Posted by Neumi

3. actually I was not aware it made a reference to any quest I had open. But since it said that the NPC would go bye bye once I finish this quest I made sure I had accepted everything.

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As did most of the other people here with the unfinished deed.

He didn't offer any other quests, and the ones that he offered previously were completed. No where did it say that ANDREG has other quests to offer IF you move him to a particular spot in the landscape.

I assumed (say what you want) that the remaining quests for the deed would be offered elsewhere down the quest line by another NPC.

Call me lazy, stupid, impatient, unable to read or some combination of the above, but the deed itself was not self explanatory.

I think the part that messes people up the most, is that accepting the quest that ends the chain is what gets rid of Andreg and the whistle and kills any quests you haven't finished or found. We're somewhat used to having to be careful when finishing a quest that has red text that tells us that any unfinished quests will be removed (Starter area, Walls of Moria), but this is the first time I can remember that accepting a quest kills other quests. And you can't not accept it, there is no decline button.

The mechanic was dumb when introduced in Annuminas, but was implemented better, and explained better in the original quest. Get rid of the whistle, give the quests to either the ranger at the camp at the edge of Gravenwood, or a ranger in the Rohirrim camp, and don't use this poorly designed mechanic again.

I think the mechanic works well as a "shortcut".

Where it is faster to just follow the trail and summon as needed.

But I think the quests should be offered by someone else at camp after you turn in if you missed any. But now your forced to go back and take longer because you missed some.

But rather like the Hobbits in the Shire that all offer the bounder quest, this style of quests needs a backup quest giver.

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Originally Posted by The-Walrus

While I agree the circumstances are confusing and chances of screwing the whole thing are pretty high, you DO get a warning about the quests, and you DO know there is a deed involved with ALL THE QUESTS LISTED. So yes it's slightly misleading, but you DO know if you are not stupid or clicking through windows and rushing through content as fast as possible. Sorry, it's mostly your own fault.

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As usual, people have a problem putting themselves in the shoes of someone with no prior knowledge.

In a nutshell, the problem is this. . .

Even if someone finds the deed. . . there is no indication that all the quests in that deed must be obtained from the mobile Andreg. As usual, people who made this assumption/guess find it difficult to understand that others did not even though there is no indication (and no precedent) that this deed contains only quests that will be given by the mobile Andreg.

This, of course, is compounded by the fact that Andreg's final warning makes no reference to the deed, and only warns the player that quests "underway" will be cancelled. So, again, people who have no reason to believe that Andreg had any other quests to offer (because, of course, they didn't stay on the "magic invisible path" so Andreg never offered them) think "Okay, I have no quests underway" and dismiss him forever. Because, again, they have no reason to think that the rest of "Tracking an Old Goat" won't be given out by other quest-givers at a later time. So they see no valid reason to keep Andreg around even after heeding his warning as written.

So, again, people need to try a little harder to put themselves in the shoes of someone who has no prior knowledge of this questline, haven't seen this thread, haven't googled it, and who should be under no obligation to have somehow gone back and revisited Annuminas just so that they can experience one other similar piece of content that might have given them the prior knowledge and context they would need to guess correctly and make sense of the otherwise wholly inadequate and misleading deed description and non-warnings.

Then again, we should know better than to take discussions seriously that come up during patching/downtime. It's just people looking to amuse themselves.

--H

Sorry to hear about what happened, OP. I guess I'm lucky because with my playstyle, I was able to find all quests and finish the deed. But as a sort of completist myself, I feel your pain.

I haven't gone through the whole thread but I could see that the Annuminas set of quest was mentioned. The Gravenwood set at least has a deed tied to it which gives you a checklist to see what you're missing. With the former, without Google and such, you are pretty much relying on luck to be at the right place to trigger Orchalwe to show his quest. I believe I finished 15 of those hidden quests plus the original two. Don't know if I'm still missing anything. (added to that the difficulty that with Annuminas, you need to barrel your way through signature mobs in groups of 3 too).

I don't know if anyone has suggested it already, but I think a nice solution would be for the summoned NPC to offer ALL his quests the first time you summon him.

My two cents.

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Originally Posted by Neumi

I played the quest line 2 days ago with my girlfriend and ... come on! It's there in red letters ... A big warning that you can't call the guy again if you complete this quest. Doesn't that make you at least THINK?

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That red text warns you about not being able to complete quests underway. Nobody here had any problem understanding that warning. As directed, they made sure they completed any "underway" quests.

And yes, it did make some people "THINK". . . it made some people "THINK" and say to themselves, "Okay, I have completed all the quests I had underway from him. I can move on now."

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Once I saw that I double checked the collection which activated earlier and I made sure that I did get everything.

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Ah, but you see, you made a leap there in assuming that all those quests in that deed were to come from Andreg. You made a connection between a warning about "underway quests" and merely a list of quests in a deed. Others saw that deed and thought: "Okay, Andreg gave me some of them, and I completed them. And now he wants to go away after sending me to the Rohirrim camp. It makes perfect sense that the rest of the deed (which mentions that Saeredan is involved as well) quests will be given by others. . ." Which is a completely rational and reasonable conclusion to make given that Turbine has not been in the habit prior of giving deeds that become impossible to complete.

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After playing in Evendim I knew how the system worked and the only difference was, that there was a collection tied to it.

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Having players go back to previously completed content to experience mechanics that have been newly grafted onto the game since the player was orginally there should not be a prerequisite for understanding and completing other, newer content. Or to put it another way, going back to Annuminas should not be necessary to understand what is going on in the Gravenwood.

--H

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Originally Posted by ararax2

You know a lot of people did the quest on opening day or opening week... you know before it was "on google" People have to do it before those people put it on google. There was no Guide for most people to follow.

I'm almost convinced that your behavior in this thread is designed to get the thread closed.

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I agree....

I also did this with the first group of players when it was extremely easy to miss the mobs and such because with so many people in that area they simply weren't easy to run across.

After I got through it with my Main I discovered the rest of it but my Main is the one where I am OCD with deeds. Now I have one I likely won't ever be able to finish...

Okay, I am have not read the whole 40 pages of posts. I just stumbled upon this, want to give my two cents, so not entirely sure if it is covered.

But...

If you turned in the quest, which results with the whistle destoryed, and kept going in the chain at the camp, you would of done an instance. In that instance, you're buddy who you summoned...(spoiler) doesn't make it.

So I ask you, how is Turbine going to add him in a stationary place for people who finished it all if the guy is dead? Unless you are suggesting they do away with the guy following you, but I kinda liked the extra help. Especially with the signature hound that popped up on me, offering me yet another quest. If I didn't have the extra help, I doubt I would of made it because I had already had two other hounds biting my heels.

That is just my two cents. Sorry that you can't complete the deed, and I understand it is frustrating. But...reading helps. :-/

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Originally Posted by Lythia

Okay, I am have not read the whole 40 pages of posts. I just stumbled upon this, want to give my two cents, so not entirely sure if it is covered.

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You should take your own advice, then:

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But...reading helps. :-/

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If you had actually read the thread you would realize the problem and not jump to conclusions that people breezed past everything and were just being sloppy.

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Originally Posted by Lythia

If you turned in the quest, which results with the whistle destoryed, and kept going in the chain at the camp, you would of done an instance. In that instance, you're buddy who you summoned...(spoiler) doesn't make it.

So I ask you, how is Turbine going to add him in a stationary place for people who finished it all if the guy is dead?

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He's still standing by the rock where he was when you got the instance quest, after completing the instance.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

I am (was) just one quest away from completing this deed, thinking that perhaps it would be given to me at the camp by someone else, since I had never experienced an 'incomplete quest deed'... Andreg (sp?) had apparently given me all the available quests, as I wondered around the region with no other quests given to me by him... going back to the initial quest-giving location didn't help, either...

way to go with dangling those 5TPs and +1 Honour rank in front of me without a way to get them...

EDIT: tried getting it by shared quest from someone else, but it's not possible.. the devs have to find a way to fix this... it's infuriating having an incomplete deed locked there...

I too dislike the way this has been handled. I am ready to end lotro altogether over this issue. I am a completionist and want to finish this. But nope the way this quest was implemented is just plain messed up in so many ways!

Well it will be dealt with like this: If we leave it alone for long enough it will slip back the pages in the forum and we wont have to deal with it - or something to that end it seems since nothing has been said about it since that dubious blue reply ages ago.

You know they could just do something about this as a gesture of kindness :(

When I saw the title of this thread I thought it had to do with some kind of unique elite east of Bree. Glad I decided to read it.

Not glad that some of you can't finish the deed, although there seems to be a way around it.

I hope to avoid this problem when I get to it.

Thanks for keeping this on the first page for a while.

Oh man, this quest chain was REALLY confusing. The mobile quest giver who fights along side you was a cool idea, but everything else about it was poorly implemented.

I was confused where I was supposed to go, confused where I was supposed to blow the whistle, and confused why I was getting random quests appearing halfway through the forest. When I received the final quest and saw the warning text, it looked like everything was ready to go since I had no more quests open. Fortunately I remembered this thread that I had read a couple months ago, and held off on clicking the complete button.

I was unable to find the remaining quest locations on my own and had to google the coordinates. Even with the coordinates they were very hard to find.

My suggestion is that these quests should all be given to you from the start, or there should be a meta-quest that leads you to the locations where the other quests are bestowed.

As for those who already missed out on the deed: maybe everyone who's completed the chain gets mailed a sympathy card from Andreg (edit: just read that he apparently dies later :() that grants them automatic completion of the deed.

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Dear PLAYERNAME,

I, Andreg the Ranger, am penning this letter to you in my own blood, as I lay mortally wounded by orc archers. I am not long for this world, and I have only one regret: that you may have missed out on completion of the deed "TRACKING AN OLD GOAT", due to confusion surrounding our adventures together in the Gloomwoods. I only hope that this letter will reach you, as I may not have the strength left in me to make it to the mailbox. Please... accept this [OLD GOAT RANGER MERIT BADGE], as a token of my condolances.

Sincerely, Andreg

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Thanks for making this thread. I was able to get the deed because I saw it before encountering these quests. Otherwise, I don't think I would have.

Doggone it. I saw this thread after the most recent necro, checked my deed list and Fooey! I remember now that I blew the whistle at the camp, Andreg showed up, there was a red warning which I guess I just assumed meant the usual "finish your quests before you send him away" stuff like at the Mirkwood intro rather than reading it carefully.

Some blue name said it's just like Annuminas so I shouldn't be surprised, but since I think I haven't done Annuminas on the dozen or so characters I've leveled past there, I <am> surprised.

How annoying!

Well, at least only one of my flock has gone past that point so far.

(3 of 7 and out of luck -- Can't I at least expunge this one from my deed list so it doesn't sneer at me for the rest of my career?)

<Spoiler alert for Andreg... bail here if you haven't done "Tribunal of Shadows">

...

I should add to my previous message that I did the Slade of Shadows chain from Saeradan's place, and Andreg sacrificed himself for our victory, telling me with his last breath to head back to the camp with the news that we'd been successful. After turning it in to Saeradan I noticed I still had the whistle, so I blew it to see what would happen. That's when I saw the red alert, which I skimmed, learning that if I executed it I wouldn't be able to turn something or other in. I had two unfinished Andreg quests, so that fit the bill... I turned them in and then quit the whistle tour. Since Andreg was already dead it didn't occur to me that his chain was still going, but (as Miracle Max would say), he was only <mostly> dead.

Guess I should bear in mind that cause does not always precede effect. And read more carefully.

After reading this thread, I thought I'd go try a quest that I'd missed, so I picked "Cruel Traps". I went to the appropriate area near the Tree of Tribute and used the USC Trojan Mine Detector Algorithm to defuse them: run around like an idiot until I step in a trap. I found seven of them while harvesting orcs and skarn (no dupes - I recorded the coordinates), but nothing that gave me credit.

Oh, well.

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Originally Posted by Fionnuala

Thanks for making this thread. I was able to get the deed because I saw it before encountering these quests. Otherwise, I don't think I would have.

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I suppose this is the best one can do... help others with the knowledge, so they won't go through the same thing I (and others) did... when I asked someone else in the region to share the quest, I made sure to give them a fair warning that this deed was one that had to be done carfully to complete... he actually had trouble with a couple of them, after he mentioned he had wondered around for a length of time, so I lead him to the locations of the ones he was missing that I had previously done myself... unfortunately, the quests in this deed cannot be shared, so the loss of the +1 Honour rank had to be compensated for by doing the Uruk-slayer deed in Angmar... yes, I let out my bit of rage on those Uruks without mercy, until I got my long-deserved 12 rank Honour...

well, the fellow I helped went on to complete the deed, and got his reward... one has to put away jealousy and feel happy for saving someone else from the annoyance of an incomplete deed... bottom line is, turn one's personal misfortune into a helpful bit of knowledge for others...

Welp, all my deeds tabs for Eriador (Except Ettenmoors) and Rhovanion are cleared except for that stupid Tracking an Old Goat deed. Thanks, Berephon, for not listing things properly in the deed description tooltip, quest, etc. (For some reason I can't find the pictures of it that were posted in this thread...)

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Originally Posted by ChromiteSwiftpaw

Welp, all my deeds tabs for Eriador (Except Ettenmoors) and Rhovanion are cleared except for that stupid Tracking an Old Goat deed. Thanks, Berephon, for not listing things properly in the deed description tooltip, quest, etc. (For some reason I can't find the pictures of it that were posted in this thread...)

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I feel your pain. In the same situation with my main and it bs.

You know the devs have a big /IGNORE sign in front of it when one of the biggest theads on the forum havent received a blue reply in over three months.

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Originally Posted by Aztec_Soul

I am (was) just one quest away from completing this deed, thinking that perhaps it would be given to me at the camp by someone else, since I had never experienced an 'incomplete quest deed'... Andreg (sp?) had apparently given me all the available quests, as I wondered around the region with no other quests given to me by him... going back to the initial quest-giving location didn't help, either...

way to go with dangling those 5TPs and +1 Honour rank in front of me without a way to get them...

EDIT: tried getting it by shared quest from someone else, but it's not possible.. the devs have to find a way to fix this... it's infuriating having an incomplete deed locked there...

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I'm in the same boat, 6 out of 7 and couldn't get the 7th quest so figured it was at the camp...

This is an absolute shame. There needs to be a fix to this. I've left games forever for less than this.

Is there any way you /can/ get the quest? Like, if someone else has Andreg up and you just follow that person around until they get to the right area? :/