I have it turned off. I still notice when there is an update, though, because I have to wait for it to complete before I can play. Are you saying your client was updated that day?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey
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I have it turned off. I still notice when there is an update, though, because I have to wait for it to complete before I can play. Are you saying your client was updated that day?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey
Thank you for the update. I'll be happy to provide whatever help I can during the next focus pass, though unfortunately I can only speak to the system as a creative. I may consider creating a priority list of notes from most to least bothersome if that would be of help. Though admittedly it would be a highly subjective list (For the most part. I think everyone can agree that Lute B3 and Clarinet A#4 are the most ear-poppingly off-timbre).Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyvyanne
Suggestion: I understand the notion was to push the new system live in advance of the concert season for people to adjust, but it appears that many bands are either simply not adjusting waiting for further focus passes, retiring, or making minimal adjustments to get by hoping for a future focus pass in order to start making serious changes to past libraries and making new songs. Furthermore, creating the .abcs that have made the LOTRO music system a feather in the cap for Turbine heavily rely on 3rd party applications created by folks giving their free time. These programmers are stuck in the same boat as the transcribers, which creates a snowball effect. No updates to 3rd party apps -> harder to make songs sound good in game without vigorous testing -> people not having the time to test new songs multiple times before performances -> less engagement in the music community -> less reason to update 3rd party apps that aren't being used.
While I understand that it was already unorthodox to roll back the system once, I am asking for it to be done again for U16.
Since it is unclear when the resources will be available for that second focus pass, I feel the current system will be a net negative for the concert season if no one is seriously attempting to adjust their libraries (or make new songs for what is ostensibly a temporary window) and waiting for a more complete version of 15.3. Or, in other words, if the goal was to allow for time for adjustment, yet no one is adjusting in lieu of fixes, have you really accomplished your stated objective of giving time? The simple answer is yes. But I feel the intent was to give people time to adjust songs to make the concert season awesome -- or simply for it to occur without serious disruption. If that was your intent, then I don't think you'll be pleased with the outcome of keeping the 15.3 system unadjusted on live for an unknown amount of time.
I feel the concert season will go much more smoothly if the system was reverted and we all get one more crack at a focus pass when resources allow. That way we can work together to clean up the off-timbre issues, technical wonks like pop-clicks on the bagpipes, and some of the odd directional issues with the sound projection in 3D space.
Couldn't o said it better meself...o course, I would o been cuter when saying it!Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritusLOTRO
For the love of Eru, please do not roll it back again. Some of us have already dived in and made extensive adjustments. If people would like a tutorial on how to use a simple text editor to adjust volumes in your files, let me know and I'll be happy to write one up. It boils down to using the find and replace tool.
Its not been a matter of making adjustments so much as making any that save a song. The new system is less than we had imo. I wouldn't mind if it was fixed so much, but I think it needs more than just fixing. I've said it time and time again that the new music sounds flat and lifeless. I do not know how else to describe it but its much less vibrant than we had before. Its broken. It should be fixed. It shouldn't be done live. Again...we wanted better, we didn't get better, we got new. Granted some notes are now in tune but I would take the out of tune old system over this any day. Beta testing is to fix things and for far to long Turbine pushes out content live before its ever right.
I also don't believe any program is going to ease the pain since some songs I have had to change a volume on a given instrument and on another I don't. Each song needs individual attention. There is no easy fix for any of them that I have experienced so far. Then there is the issue of those still having sound issues, dropped notes are still happening. ect ect ect and some more ect.
With the new samples being published in Diegro's work I see more clearly now the disparaging differences between old and new systems.
For me, and I am sorry to oppose Beor's viewpoint. This is now my view:
While I understand that it was already unorthodox to roll back the system once, I am asking for it to be done again for U16.
I have spent the morning with the new system in the new Maestro trying and trying to make a decent file out of a simple song and I am not satisfied with the results at all. You can put the lute all the way down and still need two of everything else to balance it out. Just not good enough, to not fix it within a day of going live.
While I recognize the lute as too loud, I don't see it having that much discrepancy. However, that is rather small potatoes overall and an easy fix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiepie
What is more troubling to me after going through some of my anthology and attempting some new transcriptions (in Maestro) is the overall reduced quality of the baseline timbre. And by that I don't mean the off-timbre notes, but the general richness of the sound. I have continued (and will continue) to provide feedback because it is more useful to try to improve something that seems workable than to tear it down. However, I keep coming back to this standard:
I cannot say that the 15.3 system as it stands on live is intrinsically worth it to make adjustments to ABC files. Admittedly, it is a subjective standard, but is one that I think is shared by a good deal of the community. Furthermore, I feel most folks that are making adjustments, like myself, are doing so out of the desire to keep the community going rather than because they feel the system is truly worth it. And that doesn't seem like a recipe for long term success of the product.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyvyanne
EDIT: After some additional tinkering, I need to listen to a live song and a song played in Maestro back to back. I'm getting the feeling the approximation isn't very solid. But I have to reserve judgement until I can do further testing.
We just assembled for a last minute rehearsal just now *mid day thursday Apr. 16th* and once again, snap-pop is gone.
I did a sound driver update, and god knows if Turbine snuck in an update via the anniversary festival. Noticed HP adviser popped up an update advisory on the IDT sound driver. That's about our only setting change.
You guys might want to assemble and test very soon. Petaline was on hand and did not hear any snap-pops. I did hear one snap, but that was the 76K file. There's still a slight delay on saltshaker drum runs, but pending further multi-server tests, we may be good to go for this weekend. Now we just have to finish our songs in development in under 30 hours or so? lol. TBH Lay and I were getting ready to take a long vacation from concerts with the focus on U16. I believe Frelorn had said it's going to be weeks before U16 goes live. I would still recommend re-working your files to minimize saltshaker and fast repeated beats. More rehearsals and testing pending.
Any chance of posting a version number on the launcher, so we know if something has changed? This one is a pleasant surprise. Though Lay would not use the adjective pleasant. I'm still thankful for the fix though. More testing and last minute rehearsals for us before we can green light for this weekend. There's still a lot of work on unfinished songs we had planned. Lay was pretty angry and depressed after the last appearance of the snap-pop. We had 15 songs written specifically for U15.3, and on 4th rehearsal snap-pop reared it's ugly head 1 day before concert.
http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg
I don't think there have been any little fixes done at all. We have done a few shows and I have had no problems, then Wed. night, while playing with Bright Star, I was getting a few pops and snaps. It seems to come and go.
To be honest. This new system has drained the enjoyment out of trying to craft songs. Its taking a ton of work to fix old songs and none of them sound as good as they did.
I never thought it was possible to enrage the music community O_O
It stands to reason that anyone who can convert a midi file to abc and then balance the song to a high enough standard to get approval from a band to play it, actually has the mental capacity to do what you suggest above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summer_Beor
In fact there is a very nice tool online to change volume for songs transcribed on Firefern. For those of us who use Maestro, it is simple to change the volume.
But really, the lack of ability to use a *text editor* is not the problem. Transcribers are not the problem and they should not have to be the solution. The problem once again is a new music system that was rushed out the door with known problems.
I have kept silent since the new system was rolled out and wary about posting anything here. But after two weeks of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and trying to remain upbeat and positive that things would be fixed sooner than later, now being told *we'll get to it when we can* just isn't good enough. Don't get me wrong, this new iteration is far and away better than the *first* one. And I appreciate the good faith effort on the part of the devs to make improvements. But this new system is not better than the old one, it is simply different. Different doesn't necessarily make it bad, but it doesn't make it good either. And being *different* has introduced a lot of problems described by others better than I could ever describe them.
There is an injustice here with how the previous changes and now these changes have divided the music community. Talk about PvP! The ones who love it on one side, the ones who don't on the other. Very little room for agreement. I personally have had some heated debates with others in my kin over the new lute sound. Not fun. The wrangling within kins, the wrangling here on the forums, the overall negativity this new system has inspired, and the hard work of transcribers being flushed down the toilet with likely no chance of them being recovered is a travesty.
Even I can see that being *Pollyanna* and trying to laugh rather than cry has a expiration date. After two weeks of double testing sessions which are no longer fun, the law of diminishing returns is swiftly setting in. If it take two weeks of testing to come up with an hours worth of songs, there is a problem. The onus should never be on the players to make fixes and try to fit a square peg into a round hole, the onus should be on the devs to either make the peg and the hole the same shape or go back to the drawing board.
At this point, I call for a rollback until the devs actually have the time to do this right. With that said, I have my doubts that lightning will strike twice.
Fionwyn Wyldemane
Transcriber, Lyricist and Member of Les Beaux Chapeaux
Well said Fionwyn,
we need to stick together and try to agree on the one thing that matters right now : the rollback of the old music system (together with any technical issues that increasingly occured along the side of those recent modifications).
After that we can still discuss why this was a failure and I'm sure we'll disagree within the musical community over the details, but to me it looks like we have a concensus here that the new system is just a changed one (a lot would say to a state worse than before) and destroying more than 10000 arranged ABC's for a changed and not an improved system is NOT worth it. (10k is way too low as a number, as there are some that got more than 5k just for their own band)
But honestly ... destroying our main instrument -the lute- by taking away it's sound, making the tones shorter and destroying 2 tones entirely ... there is nothing friendly I can say about that: HOW COULD YOU!
I am not against them continuing work on the new system, I just think the work should be done in beta. Left in beta until right, and once it is, then release it. If Turbine rolled it back into beta and vowed to keep working on it, I would find new faith in them. This sending out garbage however and then trying to fix it once it goes live, is a bad policy and should be stopped. That goes for all new content.
Bah. I am truly sorry that the Devs who worked on this are being subjected to this because the system is not broken as I feel some others are claiming. Take some aural skills courses. Many of the frequencies on the notes of the instruments were off in the first place and have now been placed where they should have been in the first place so they can mix better with all the other instruments. It does not make the new note frequencies wrong because they sound different. Clarinet was practically unusable before because of how flat most of the notes were compared to similar notes on other instruments and yet I'd hear arrangement after arrangement where people used it for the melody. Not it can be easily mixed with flute, horn, or anything you like. Low bagpipes notes were flat and higher flute notes ran sharp, so you couldn't mix them well before. Now you can. Seriously, grab a tuner app on your phone and listen across the ranges of the new notes compared to the old.
I just invited a group of 16,000 music educators to bring their students and try the system with their students because the improvements to the system open the doors to neat orchestration and arranging possibilities in a gaming environment. I'll hope the new system remains in place when some of them take me up on the offer.
I have begun a closer look at each instrument over it's complete range. My first instrument is the flute, sampled notes which I feel could be improved are: D2, F2, A#2, B2, - C3, C#3, D#3, F3, G3, B3, - D4, F4, A#4, B4.
Video posted below:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhYey-o_EyA
Please note that this is a recording from LOTRO. However processing through my movie maker has made the top range of the flute sound shrillier than it is in LOTRO and on my .flv OBS recording.
If we are to agree, then let us agree to move forward! There are good things and bad things about the changes, but a rollback will give us back out-of-tune instruments and also I think another rollback would be the end of the matter...
It is possible to work with the new instruments, good music is being made and played as I type this. Admittedly they could be better but isn't work on this in progress and on Bullroarer already? Even if there is nothing about it in the patch notes.
What would make a big difference I think is more transparency from the dev side as to what happens when and more dialogue with us users.
And now excuse me, I need to go read today's installment of Dilbert.
There are obviously fixes that need to be done when the Devs are able to get back to work (post U16). But surely lowering the current lute volume by x % can't take much effort and could be done now? That at least takes care of one nasty.
I still want the old lute back as an option though :)
I just wanted to address this line of reasoning quickly. I don't think anyone is suggesting a permanent rollback -- or to not move forward. And the developers have already made it known that they intend to perform another focus pass. So we know they want to continue to improve the new system. The problem is we do not know when will that next focus pass occur. That is why it is of paramount importance that any new music system be as polished as possible before it is released. Not perfection by any stretch, but to only include minor enough hotfix level issues that would have no bearing on general transcription practices. As it stands, anything that is transcribed or adjusted between 15.3 launch and the release after the indeterminate next focus pass will be essentially wasted long term effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulipan
What I, and others, are suggesting is to roll back the system and go ahead with that next focus pass whenever development resources and timelines normally allow. The live state should have no bearing on the development schedule as the time and effort has already been invested. That work isn't going anywhere. The more paramount concern is keeping a vibrant music community invested in the game until such time that the new product is generally satisfactory to the using customers at large.
The one thing that will certainly kill any new development in the music system is a drastic decrease in people engaging in the music system, and the 15.3 system is threatening just that. Regardless of my or anyone's individual opinion of its virtue.
My apologies for the double post (triple, actually), but this is a completely different topic that really is more talking shop than anything relevant to what course of action should be taken going forward.
I agree that just because something sounds different doesn't mean it is worse. And it is absolutely true that the 15.3 system is better tuned than 15.2. However, I disagree that the new system mixes better. Sure, in a vacuum where the timbre remained unchanged and the only difference between 15.3 and 15.2 was a proper pitch balance between the instruments, it would be hard to argue that the system wouldn't be objectively improved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summer_Beor
The new timbre is a serious problem that, at least for me, presents a bigger issue than previous quality of the pitch balance. When it comes to mixing sounds together, timbre is far more important than pitch. And not only when you have "off-timbre" notes, but if the baseline timbres are compatible, you'll not have an ensemble, but multiple sounds competing for the same space instead of combining to create something new.
My example I'll provide is the 4th Movement from Dvorak's "From the New World" Symphony. In just the first 20 seconds you can noticeably hear many timbre related issues that, even taking the better pitch balance into account, subjectively reduces the quality of the piece. Note the "off-timbre" notes, the flatter mix of bagpipe and horn, and most glaringly obvious, the full orchestra section sounds like has been reduced from a philharmonic to a chamber group. All of that is due to the new timbre:
15.3 (New System):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGqa9XU9iZU
*EDIT: I just noticed that I forgot to drop the volume on the theorbo, so my apologies. It shouldn't impact the general idea I'm trying to convey.
Old System version follows for side-by-side comparison:
15.2 (Old System):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SypCR4robuA
It sounds beautiful to me. :p And the new version is a damn sight more in-tune than the old one.
Regarding the "chamber group" effect, isn't this more realistic and appropriate for the game?
Again, I acknowledge the subjectivity in preference. However, no. A chamber music piece should sound like it is played by a chamber group. A symphony should should sound like it's being played by an orchestra. To not have the capacity to transcribe for both is an objective, gross (as in not net) downgrade in the quality of the system. If we go by the standard of what is realistic and appropriate for the game, we should be axing a whole host of features. Playing multiple simultaneous notes on wind and brass, for example. Limiting genre. Etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurallor
I like the new system. It has flaws still, but: In-tune instruments, a lute that is different from the harp, lower horn/clarinet notes that are not just coughs... all good stuff for me.
Obviously, Turbine pushed out this iteration too early. I'd rather not have a rollback, though, because this whole rolling out and pulling back again proves damaging too. Additionally, by now I don't believe that the "music community" will ever be able to give Turbine a clear, unequivocal view of what they want the new system to sound like. There are simply far too many different personal preferences in play, and some will likely never be satisfied whatever happens. My fear is that Turbine will just pull the plug on further development, rather than try tinker with it to please everyone. And that would be a shame, because of the many good things in this update.
In my view? The best thing Turbine could do right now is to do a quick fix including:
- A final pass at the volume leveling, which is then locked. This is probably the one thing impacting most on conversions anyway. Look into the strings - they are louder than the winds (theorbo in particular, likely also the lute).
- Fix those two dodgy B3 and B4 notes on the lute. Yeah, releasing the update with those notes was unfortunate, to say the least. This is an apparent flaw for many, both for those playing in a band and for solo musicians. I'd guess a lot of the general feedback on the system is related to those two notes.
- Fix that dodgy clarinet note (A#4?)
Get this in ASAP, as part of U16. Honestly, it should not take that much effort from the team (and if this really is too much effort, at least to me it would demonstrate that Turbine runs with a pretty small LOTRO crew these days). With these fixes in place, the new music system will for me be superior to the old one.
Afterwards, there should be a dedicated effort to fix other problematic notes, many of which have been discussed already in this thread.
I'd be inclined to agree, assuming one adds in the more technical fixes that are occurring with note pops and some 3D directional funny business going on. However, we already know this is a no go as the development team has been explicit that there are no resources to dedicate to the music system for U16, and the next focus pass will occur at an indeterminate time after. So, our options are a roll back -- as it takes no development time at all -- or to sit on the current system as is until at least the next update after U16 and then an unforeseeable amount of time after that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Linawillow
I can appreciate wanting those small, incremental steps to take place over that time instead of a rollback. I think I'd prefer that as well, but it isn't in the cards. Factoring in everything -- including the reactions from others and the net lost enthusiasm from the community as a whole, which could be more detrimental to getting attention to the system than anything else -- I have to support a temporary rollback until the next focus pass. I don't think it's ideal. I just think it is most rational to the cause of keeping a robust community and getting a better music system in what will be the same amount of time.
I think I've found something...
******
1. Launch Turbinelauncher.
2. Enter your pw and click login.
3. Select your server and click play.
Normally I'd expect the WB/Turbine logo audio to play through my headphones.
Audio default device is set to speakers and headphones, one of three devices on the "Sound" list of Windows.
It did not.
It played through the speakers.
Is this the heart of the issue. Turbinelauncher fails to detect or set the audio device properly?
It changes the behavior of other applications using the audio device. Youtube will now also play through the speakers instead of the headphones. Digero's Maestro and ABC player similarly now plays through the speakers instead of the headphones.
So for laughs, I log on a few more accounts. Each account behaves differently, though default audio is set for "Speakers and Headphones", I keep "Sound" monitor up, and actually see playback come through on "Speakers and Headphones" and my third audio device "DFX speakers".
Sometimes Turbinelauncher fails to detect the audio device, and on toon selection, the audio device is actually "None"
For tests I disable all devices except for "headphones". Better. It does not fix the Digero's playback through the speakers, which now becomes muted. (I guess it's still trying to access the speakers. That's something Digero needs to look into). There is still this mysterious lag gap during multi-part playback as if lag or something is accessed in the background.
This is not new, but an old nuisance us old time musicians have encountered before, where the audio device is not detected and set properly
"...it comes and goes"
An old nuisance bug that we just relog our toons on to fix, but when those of us that launch multiple accounts, it make sense. Audio coming through two devices when only one default setting is set in Windows "Sound" and in game;Option;Audio settings.
Is this the heart of the snap-pop bug issue, or rather the symptoms of the bug?
An old nuisance bug that's come back and bite with a vengeance in the form of the snap-pop, where audio is actually coming through two audio devices or not at all?
*******
I've submitted a copy of this to lotrobugs. Let's see what Turbine makes of this.
http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg
Good work. It feels like the "snap-pop" issue is one of optimization, and that would jive with your results. I know just enough about the technical end to be dangerous, but not enough to be a source. I'd keep pinging them on this and hopefully they can nail it down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey
Seems you are not the only one having sound issues like that
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...67298-No-Sound
Oh! I thought I was the only one getting no sound when logging in sometimes :) Well, I thought I was alone since I know why it happens for me, but maybe it's not related at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by Emere
I have had this problem happen to me several times, and it has always happened when I have been restless and... Well, normally I calmly hit Esc twice to cut the intro videos to get to the character select, but when I have been kind of restless I've hit Esc a bunch of times superfast before the intro even started properly, out of the wrong belief that it'll go faster if I do that, but that just made LOTRO start with no sound so I'd have to login again :o
I used to do stuff like that every time something started to load slow or "lag" on my computer in the olden days, and yes, I know that if you bother the computer when it's desperately trying to do stuff, it'll go even slower... but it felt faster so I couldn't help myself :)
Yesterday we attempted to play a borderline overloaded song in our library, Vivaldi's Four Seasons: Spring...
The game became entirely overloaded(More than usual) and lagged the entire band and audience.
The same thing happened when we played Die Moldau, on a lesser scale of course... However, it would seem that the bass creates most of it, as when I dropped my theorbo, the lag lessened, a lot.
Yes, there are bands in LotRO who like the new system. Let them play on Weatherstock. There are tunes that can be played and some tunes do well, but our band don't have the time to rewrite all the tunes every few weeks and then they sound life- or listless compared to before the update.
So we did stop our concerts and our engagement gets less and less.... Dancing became a forgotten pastime and now I have to do a skirmish.... *shudders*. But there are lots of games with battles and skirmishing and PvP, but only a few with RP and this great lore and music. I'm disappointed and will keep up submitting bug-reports, without great hope.
All you testers do a great job defining the problems I did not have the skill to describe so well. Keep it up and I will have a look from time to time if something has been done... I will retire to Thorins Hall for the time being and write some memoirs.
A very sad bard and scholar.....
Kirgoin Steelhammer on Landroval
~hugs~Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirgoin
I couldn't agree more with you. I feel like someone just punched me in the gut and took my pie.
I really don't want a rollback! It's so nice to finally have in tune instruments!
Still needs some fixing though :)
If it's at all possible, could you try to fix the twangy lute note, and maybe tweak the Lute volume before U16? Or whatever else the most abc-makers think would be the top problems to fix that could perhaps be done easily/quickly so they might be able to fit it in before U16 :) It would be of great help :)
And for after U16: Could you please change the "stereo-effect" on the player music? I don't like that I can hear it from the speaker that is closest to where the band is playing. If I'm at a concert and a friend walks up to, for example my left side, and I turn to the left to wave at him/her, the player music moves to the right speaker since the band is on the right side of my character.
I'd would much rather hear the music properly no matter which way I turn, as long as I'm close enough to the band :)
In tune...Quote:
Originally Posted by Silmelin
That's debatable...
I am for a rollback too.
Yes...there were a few notes in the old musicsystem which sounded awkward and really needed to be changed.
Yes...there were some instruments missing to fill gaps in instumentation
Despite of that everything was fine for me.
Listen to old recordings. Listen to live-concerts. Listen to your favourite singers and songs ...
Is there every tone accurate and in tune?
Don't you love the raspy sound of a deep horn...humming in your guts?
And what about two instruments, slightly out of tune, tickling your ears and sences by creating a hovering tone...sounding like the voice of angels?
What about unexpected and exciting sounds in a song?
We had all that with the old music-system.
That sound is gone with the new system. The deep frequences are filtert out now. Everything, every band sounds clean and sterile. No depth...no vibration..nothing unexpected and exciting.
For some kind of music that will be fine. Maybe for meditative or hypnotic music.
Do you really want to listen to that kind of music ALL the time?
I don't.
I really tried to work with the new sounds. But I don't like the result. I'm only bored of the new sound. And I don't go to concerts anymore because of it. Every band sounds the same...boring.
These are my two cents to the topic.
Leynael
Transcriber and bandmember of Mondbarden
Belegaer
The clarinet has been changed in LOTRO recently. I think the clarinet could benefit from a) A new better quality sample over the entire range or b) Fixes to the following notes: C2 and C#2 sound rather muffled. A muffling or fuzziness is often heard over the range. F2 Has an odd scraping noise. A#2 is also problematic.
C3 to D#3 also issues with muffling and escaping of air noises. E3 and F3 have a very nasty quality in the attack of the note. G#3 has issues also and A3 is soft and muffled. B3 is buzzy. D4 has a delay on the start of the note and is Buzzy too F4 include a small click and pop. From G4 to C5 there is an issue with pitchyness, where the notes are slightly sharp. A#4 suffers a distinct lack of quality compared to the range. C5 is a little muffled. The is also issues with the overall quality of sound having a metallic quality that I would like addressed. I observe that the clarinet and Flute do not blend as well when sharing a melody.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJpfbSQPQ8c
Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie1435
How many in your band? Perhaps the number of players affects the overload?
For this iteration of the LoTRo music player I have only transcribed two sets for my 5 piece band (Birds of a Feather) - Vivaldi's "The Four Seasons" and Holst's "The Planets" suites.
I played both sets in Bree on "Fireworks Hill" surrounded by festival-goers the other day - not a single problem with overloading at all.
With regards towards the rollback/no rollback debate - all I have to say is this:
The instruments may be in tune now, sure - but it's LIFELESS - individual band character is gone. Everyone sounds the same.
One of the biggest cons of the new system is that because of the LIFELESS TIMBRE - everything is now loaded in favor of huge bands with lots of players.
Small bands & bands made of one player and their alts (like mine) that are restricted to fewer members have lost out with this new system.
Using my band (1 player 4 alts) as an example:
In the old system you could make 5 band instruments sound like 10 or more, all because of that timbre.
The new system lacks that timbre and 5 band instruments will now only ever sound like 5 instruments.
What once was a passable if not half decent approximation of an orchestra has been nerfed into a lowly chamber group.
This effect is exacerbated even more by no longer being able to use clarinet/flute (or pipes and horn) together for vocals/strong solo's etc.
In my opinion if instruments being in tune is a pro - there are too many other cons with this new system for me to consider it anything other than a downgrade...
I think that says enough about which way I am leaning on the rollback debate.
Trust me when I say, its not just small bands. Les Beaux Chapeaux has been testing 7-12 part songs for the last few weeks. Even the large ones sound flat and lifeless. ~hugs~Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingleton
Had to chime in. We're a three piece band and played a 16 song set this weekend on 8 servers. The crowd reception was pretty enthusiastic to date. From lore correct to rock ballads. We also had extra songs and had to dive into the encore segment. I guess opinions differ, and that's from the audience. There were a lot accumulated that we didn't get to all the songs transcribed so far. We normally play 9 and had to drop one of the servers because we were out of time.
I'm just curious. When you say lifeless. Do you just mean just the lower registers or the upper also? Just going over the concert list and most are polyphonic with bass and/or drum support. Maybe that's the difference? Maybe we can arrange a time to play again on the server of your choosing that we tour on? IDK. Just offering.
Roll back? Only one of us in the group thinks we should roll back. It's not perfect by far, but it's manageable. We have a rocket launch like checklist now prior to each concert, and now have added in a warm-up segment just to make sure everything is playing properly on each server. U15.3 is certainly higher maintenance, but we're adapting and managing so far. Fingers crossed. Since we're going by subjective opinion here...
P.S. Oh, these are all written and tested for U15.3, minimizing salt shaker on drums and multi-chords per instrument. Only one song delayed on a busy riff/chorus segment. Snap-pop? Yes, but sporatic and maybe 5 per song at most? Not the crackle like when we had multiple audio devices enabled on "Sound". Like I said. Not perfect by far.
http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg
Roll back the music system ... PLEASE
For those who like the new system, creat new instruments with the new sound (for horn a saxophone, for lute a mandoline etc) as a compromise between the two opinions.
Ok, with the new music system the instruments sounds more clear ... but without soul, feelings, resonance, volume and timbre ... as a well-trained child.
The old system was like David Garrett play his violin, full soul and emotion.
Hard rock, metal, punk ... all music is sounding now like children rmusic.
Since half a year we have the dilemma with the changing music systems. There is no rest in our hobby.
I will not change all of my great-sounding songs, not degrade the songs ... that means I will not play my songs with the Mondbarden as long as the new music system consists solely.
Without music gives me the game nothing and so I'm not going to invest more money in Lotro.
Tunvil Wintermond
transcriber and bandmember of Mondbarden
server Belegaer
It is not feasible to roll back the system at this point as too many adjustments have been made.
We will address some of the note issues reported in the next few bug fix patches as we can and other reported issues including the potential of adding new instruments.
I am sorry not all of you are happy with the changes. We gathered feedback and made tweaks where we could for many months and the consensus in checking internally as well as with many of the music community was that the new system was better than the old and the preference was for getting it out before the festival season so that bands could prepare properly.
We will continue to incorporate your feedback on the new system as we move forward.
It's useful to have that forwardness. It makes people's decisions on their future interactions with the game easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyvyanne
While I cannot speak to your internal discussions, I think perhaps there was a misread in the attitude of the music community. The general consensus I observed was the community saw potential for a better music system with more work, but since the product was released with 15.3 instead of U16 as was previously projected, it came out with timbre issues and technical limitations (snop-pop issue/3D directional issues) that severely cripples its usability compared to the old system. Not to mention the fairly vocal majority that spoke up in beta on disliking the new lute sample. The system desperately needed one more beta pass before release. And since all of the focus was on fixing technical issues like note-dropping -- an important thing to address for sure -- there wasn't time to address "second tier" issues like timbre. And I say "second tier" because bad sounding samples aren't game breaking from a technical standpoint, but not any less important from a product quality standpoint. And since the technical issues that needed fixing were a product of the change and not the old system, one cannot look to those fixes as an upgrade from the previous system -- and still includes technical issues that weren't previously observed (snap-pop frequency is debatable, 3D directional problems are not).
There is still promise with time, but without some sort of solid timeline -- which I know will not be divulged if even known -- it puts everyone in a bit of a bind. I suppose the more time one has to invest in testing and re-testing, the less of a hurdle it becomes, but for many of us that can't easily increase our playing time, it is a daunting prospect. The only options without increasing time investment is to cut performance lengths or cut performance frequency.
My biggest concern still remains that the readily observable waning music community will result in an overall downgrade in the development priority of the music system when passed through a simple cost-benefit analysis.
Not everyone will be happy until it's perfect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyvyanne
It'll never be perfect.
Even if it COULD be perfect, not everyone would agree on what "perfect" means.
As I see it, the system was given a lot of love, the changes were well planned out, and you haven't stopped listening.
That tells me the appropriate response is, "Great job so far and thanks to the team for all their hard work."
Thank you for the good news. There are a fair number of musicians who don't want to roll back. We just need to know that the remaining issues will be fixed, hopefully sooner than later so that we don't spend hours editing ABC files.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyvyanne
I know it wouldn't be perfect, but I'd be able to get by for now with just a few note fixes and the volume balancing because LUTES ARE TOO LOUD. Heh.
I have read through this thread, and try as best as I can to keep my ear against the musical community wall.
If you can work out the notes and timbre issues maybe the system can be played by some. I am playing some music this weekend and then in May I have a concert. This for me will be a deciding point in my lotro musical career.
What is important to me is the quality of the sound. I don't think this new system is quality - I hope it will become bareable. I also feel that we are in a state of limbo - I will see what fixes do to the system.
Personally I am sad to see so many bands playing less, or not at all now. My Community Events post on a fan site is much shorter now than it was.
I am not looking for perfection, if I was I would not be messing with midi at all.
edit: The reason for my post has been removed
I know Iliander and she is a friend. She is also German and her command of the English language is not so good. Don't be so thinned skinned about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pfeifenkraut
Oh for crying out loud. Your post is making my temper short like a hobbit who just had his pie stolen...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pfeifenkraut
I apologize myself. It should not be a racist remark. It was just a poorly chosen metaphor to express what I mean ... I changed it.
My English is really very bad and Google-translater my 'best friend'.
Thank you! I couldn't have put it better myself!Quote:
Originally Posted by Northwoods
So,
lets see .. to get horn and lute to a comparable volume they have to play at a difference of 3(+/- 1) lotro volume levels now - that is almost half of the available dynamic range of the game - this is the most basic adjustment a music system must have if it's for group music playing: equal volumes on all instruments
Instead of converting tunes and trying to make them sound, our music arranging has to focus now on compensating the new bugs of the music system.
It does not matter if some folks like the new system - from an objective point of view, just by looking at volume balances this new music system is worse than before.
So give us another really complete overhole of the volumes, and please get some automatic tool to fix that for you - touching 300+ tones by hand can't work out.
And after that we still have to talk about the digital sound quality of the filtered instruments! But getting the volumes right should have been the basis before continuing.
You shouldn't need to apologize. To anyone who is familiar with the music tutelage techniques across the globe, this is a perfectly understandable remark and not at all racist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iliander
To say your remark was racist is to say it is racist to say a beer has a solid malty flavor like a good Belgian Ale... it has no depth of bitterness like an IPA. Or that the sausage wasn't spicy -- like a well crafted Italian sausage. It is well known in at least concert pianist circles that the Asian School prizes high technical prowess over all other measures. All one needs to do is go to an international school of music to see this. Asian pianists are nearly always on top marks regarding the ability to keep perfect tempo and keep steady dynamic volume. The reason is because their music tutelage emphasizes these techniques from an extremely young age. And it's a school, not a race issue. Anyone of any race that has been taught under the "Asian School" will have similar emphasis.
By contrast, the "European School" emphasizes timbre, rubato, expressionism, and other more artistic and less technical measures. Any person from Asia taught under the European School will have similar proclivities.
For the statement to be racist, it must assume that Japanese folk are somehow hardwired genetically to prefer the more technical Asian School of music expression. And to jump to that conclusion based on the text is idiotic. More reasonably, Japanese folk are generally more /inclined/ to adhere to the Asian model because of regional bias. Or, more simply, since the school of instruction comes from their back yard, it is reasonable to assume they would have received such instruction.
Or, further, if you'd like to extend this out to its fullest measure: The old music system had no precision and was all over the place -- like a well-trained French musician.
Somehow I don't think that reversal would've caught flack.
I think you've overestimated the objective view, Bruzo, as much as I hate to admit it. There is really only one force working here and that is the development schedule. I don't think there ever was the intent to seriously consider an objective, first-time-go upgrade to the music system, but rather put as much work into a truncated amount of time and release it as "better" when the time ran out. Now, whether that was a developer decision or a higher decision is unknown and will likely remain unknown. But anyone intimate with the system cannot seriously consider 15.3 an objective upgrade. It has promise for something better in that the pitches are more uniform across all the instruments. But uniform volume was clearly not achieved in the endstate, there are still technical issues with snap-pop and 3D projection, and the timbre is noticeably more flat to anyone with a trained ear -- not to mention that /within/ the instruments there are different timbres like breathy notes, metallic notes, buzzy notes, pitch-shift notes, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by SchorschiSchrumpf
The problem is that when everyone was giving feedback during the 15.3 beta, we were under the impression that the system was to be released with U16. So we thought the development team was taking things one step at a time by not addressing all these issues. But, when it was announced that 15.3 would be the release, it became clear the launch product wouldn't be satisfactory to the metric of "worth adjusting old files."
Thanks for the update Vyvyanne.
Hoping U16 is shaping up nicely for the team.
A lot of noise here. Griping, frustration, shouting back and forth. Didn't I predict this prior to U15.3 release?
Hope this helps;
1. Say it. Do it. Announce deadlines if any, even if it's general, like...by 4th quarter. Let's not repeat what happend at the last BR session and U15.3 release.
2. Volume tweaking. Need a confirmation. Volumes staying, or candidate for future tweaks? Make a decision and stick to it.
Try using Maestro and you will see the volume changes needed. This may not seem like much to you, but it is a huge decision to transcribers.
3. Timbre. As much as it's scientifically accurate for Lilikate to produce the scales., the tonal differences is much more audible with non-adjacent notes, like in chords and riffs. Case example was one song sent in. Fixed, because the single bad note was clearly audible, in chords on the Theorbo. Yes, a fix in U15.3
4. Snap-pop/3D sound. In future, instead of the single line Frelorn publishes in the dev release notes, can we get a bullet point list of what was touched here? Clearly more of a technical issue than something we can test here by users.
Just trying to "band-filter" the forum noise *pun intended* and help you devs focus on what's needed here onwards.
http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg
Vyvyanne, thank you for the update. We really do appreciate all the effort that has gone into improving this aspect of the game. It's hard to please everyone. Looking forward to future improvements. Thanks again! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyvyanne
RACIST!Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritusLOTRO
I don't know why but that one line made me giggle. :)
Thanks for the update and I do appreciate the work put into revising and improving the music system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyvyanne
With that said, I just can't support it any longer. Too much pounding square pegs into round holes makes Fionwyn a rather unhappy lass. Just not my cup of tea. For those who will continue to pound away and *beta test* in live, I wish you well!
Fionwyn
Psst - Shroud of the Avatar, Lord British/Tracy Hickman - pre-alpha testing - Oh yeah :-)
There is no try. Just do.
This is a t2c difficulty in terms of programming, etc, sure... Regardless, no Loot nor Chest at the end of this raid. Sorry Devs, Tier 1 completion at best.
Don't landscape the Lute! The Lute is like the Music Community's go-to Legendary Weapon. Derp Nerf!
I love how right when the new system was announced, the community was on the forums, quite actively, shouting, "IT'S NOT READY TURBINE!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyvyanne
Right... I'm sure with that reaction it was 100% better than the old system. /sarc_off
Also, the sad part, is it seems like you're trying to place the blame on the music community rather than yourselves. You claim we made the decision... Or the "consensus." Considering all the negative feedback I highly doubt it. Sorry Vvy, this looks like you're trying to blame us for your mistake.
Losing more of my faith every day.
Cmon, Robbie. It's not that doom and gloom. Problem with the blame game is feelings get hurt on both sides and progress and improvements are slowed or halted.
I'm sorry some are opting out of the process. The music community as a whole loses whenever anyone leaves.
What is frustrating to me is that the last beta BR session, the playback capability was so much better than what was released in u15.3. Note drop diminished.
Theorbo fixes. tonal improvement to a small degree. Which is the baffling part. Why the step back when it was so close? Just a few more improvements and u15.3 could've been a hit. All things considered, volume tweaking, tonal fixes on a few notes, the emergence of new bugs (snap-pop/ lag in chords coming in/3D stereo mixing) vs what was stated as improvements prior to release after the Beta BR session. The talk vs the walk didn't match up. We really did expect a last confirmation BR session before U15.3 was released. But in hindsight it's understood. Dev priorities had to switch focus on a huge release as Osgiliath and U16, along with the new LI embuement system.
On paper, technical specs, capabilities like octave matching instruments ( please use this term, in tune means a B flat is not off key) may show U15.3 as a superior system, but the reality is that the music community is now shackled by volume changes, tonal changes. snap-pop, delays in chords, 3D directional stereo balancing levels.
Just leveling today I was fighting a warg in the Lone lands. Stereo balancing was so off, during the fight the warg was only coming in thru the left earpiece, then the right; grunts that did not reflect the frontal position of the mob model/animation. Yeah, definitely something off in the 3D formula. Audio device was set to headphone. When switched to speaker+headphone, the stereo mix was obviously using a different code. becase it sounded different.
By the sounds of it *pun*, we need to chime in as to what fixes we'd like to see once U16 is out the door + any hotfix for the new (non-musical) systems there.
For me, my vote is on fixing snap-pop, volume tweaking, lute and theo -2 .abc settings, flute +2, clar +2, bag/horn +1, drums -1. Fix the 14? off tonal notes identified in the forums so far, and reduce the stereo mix ratios based on direction (currently way too drastic, ie, no zeroing out stereo when right ear is on far side of playing toon, case in point the warg fight). My volume tweak suggestions does not replicate pre-U15.3 settings, but present a more usable range for transcribers vs current levels. I think we can all survive a +1/-1 difference between the old vs the new system, vs the +/- 3 levels on some of the current instruments.
http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg
^^This is Keepin' it 100!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey
I'm already there hon...for over a year nowQuote:
Originally Posted by Mistmorn
See you there !
Hugs
Leynael Wintermond (chrysalis65)
I regret not being able to attend the tests done during the beta. I understood that the result was up. I remain curious to hear what a real new music system could have, instead of the current which still remains below my expectations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey
If the update sounded better in beta, it means that there still hope for the future! Yoohoo!
Zed'Still Hungry'Rock
You're right, but it's not something that shouldn't be taken lightly. This is a major feature in this game, and keeps me and many of my bandmates playing. What would happen if Turbine does to this what they did to Draigoch? Bugged it then never fixed it. Then would you be angry? That's all I see coming in the future at this point. More attempts to fix what isn't broken, messing it up, sighing and giving up, and then abandoning the project.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey
Am I trying to be pessimistic? No.
Am I trying to be realistic? Yes.
@zedrock
Nitpicking the details. Playback in general was better in the Beta BR session. Snap-pop was not as pronounced as it is now. Chord delays and a vast majority of the tonal fixes not in. In the current release, there are actually theorbo tonal fixes. I do feel they touched the lute tone. Just not to the degree we like it. Lot's more to consider.
@robbie
You do understand the audio dept and the raid group are two separate dept's. Yes? I walk into an Apple store, complain the software is buggy on my Ipod, and cite what they pooched in the past about an Ibook fiasco. That make sense? Though Vyvyanne's rep is tarnished in this matter, I do believe they are trying to do the best they can under deadline and resource constraints. Who knows what restrictions they have that we are not aware of? So far it seems, their intentions have been clear; they're intend to get back to the problem once Osgiliath and U16 patches are addressed. Not the greatest news with the time sensitive matter of the music system with events pending, but it's not hopeless as you're indicating. Just not good enough for some it seems. Just more teeth gritting and eye-rolls for now. Glass half full. Great time to be a folk soloist and switch player on octave range matched instruments, and not so much for bands with 25Mb plus song directories.
http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg
You have to understand that 1) Bullroarer was inaccessible to people who don't use Windows systems in the 15 cycle. Furthermore, to think that 2) Turbine has [departments] would be asinine. That company is undoubtedly a group of 2 or 3 software folks, period. At least that is the way they portray themselves in the fora. I mean, come on, they are still in a BS datacenter running "my first Tier 3 bandwidth (Cogent)", barely pushing meaningful updates to this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey
To me the central question is:
If it was never intended to do it right - why change the music at all?
All that wasted time on working on the music system and we're still at a worse state to the one with no changes at all ....
I'm sure they intended to do it right -- we just don't know exactly what they intended to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by SchorschiSchrumpf
Below are all of the clues I've been able to find in "official" communications in the forums.
From them I glean that the following problems have been acknowledged by Turbine:
- "Off notes" and "bad notes" and "odd notes" (in particular A4 (clarinet), Eb3, B3, and B4 (lute), C4 (theorbo))
- Inconsistency of note volume for a single instrument
- Inconsistency of volume among instruments (in particular "lute and flute being too loud")
...some of which have been introduced during the recent music system changes:
- Notes that "lack sustain or are cut off" (in particular, bagpipe notes being cut off prematurely; lack of bagpipe "drone")
- Inconsistent "note timing" (presumably referring to delays at the beginning of notes)
- Dropped notes
- Problems depending on "how your musicians are arrayed"
- Snap/pop issue
The following changes have been made without any corresponding problem being acknowledged or other rationale given:
- Notes were "updated, cleaned up"
- Many instruments were re-recorded
The only vague reason I could find for this was in the Update 15.3 Release Notes: "The player music system has been spruced up a bit." I.e., these changes were the result of Turbine's sound designers' subjective judgements. Which many of the players apparently disagree with.
There has been no official mention of the "chamber music" effect or the "high-pass filter" effect reported by players in this thread, but presumably those changes improved the sound in the opinion of Turbine's sound designers.
(5-Nov-2014) Update 15 Known Issues
Music System - Clarinet A#4 is squeaky and various instruments have some notes that are too quiet, lack sustain, or are cut off
(16-Jan-2015) Update 15.2 Release Notes (Bullroarer)
Instruments have had their notes updated, cleaned up, retuned, and volume re-leveled to be consistent.
(21-Jan-2015) Vyvyanne
We are working on the following changes for the next build:
1. Lower the volumes on a couple of the instruments
2. Switch the harp back to its live version
(22-Jan-2015) Vyvyanne
As for the volumes, with all the tuning and changes in this version of the system, we can not just set the volume to live settings but leave the rest of the changes as the sound will be different. Many of the instruments were re-recorded. We have to balance the volume based on what we have now or revert back completely.
(22-Jan-2015) Vyvyanne
Ok so you should see some volume balancing tomorrow along with a switch back to the live version harp sound. This pass was purely to correct the tuning issues and inconsistent note timing that was problematic in the Live version.
(26-Jan-2015) Vyvyanne
This will have longer bagpipe notes to correct the cutoff bug and a couple more volume tweaks. However we will be looking into correcting the remaining odd notes for update 16
(26-Jan-2015) Vyvyanne
We believe that the dropped notes issue has been fixed or significantly reduced in the version that we will next put out to Bullroarer
(30-Jan-2015) Update 15.2.3 Release Notes (Bullroarer)
Continued Music system updates. These include the return of bagpipe drone and more volume leveling.
(30-Jan-2015) Vyvyanne
Please take a look at it this weekend and let me know if you are still seeing the dropped notes issue and give me an idea of the number of instruments, types, etc playing when you hear it.
(1-Feb-2015) Tybur
Thank you for sending in your bugs regarding dropped notes and including the abc files where you see the problem most.
(3-Feb-2015) Vyvyanne
We will continue to look into the dropped notes problem and aim to have the music improvements out with U16.
(11-Feb) Update 15.2.4 Release Notes (Bullroarer)
Music system changes have been made to address dropped notes while playing abc music files.
(24-Feb-2015) Tybur
We would love to meet you on Bullroarer to see how your musicians are arrayed and hear exactly what you are talking about.
(2-Mar-2015) DarthCeltics
Once again the goal is to gather as many musicians as we can to hear if some of the changes that were made help to remedy the dropped notes issue.
(3-Mar-2015) Vyvyanne
Trust me you do not want Sound designers working on PvP balance :) We have people more skilled at that working on those changes.
(5-Mar-2015) DarthCeltics
These adjustments only address the dropped notes issue and some timing on a few notes. Other issues can be addressed once we have the problem of the dropped notes solved.
(11-Mar-2015) DarthCeltics
Is lute and flute being too loud something that everyone (or almost everyone) agrees with after yesterday's Bullroarer session?
(12-Mar-2015) DarthCeltics
A few of the "bad" notes have been addressed, including Eb3, B3, and B4 (lute) as well as the "E2 thud" and C4 (theorbo). We're still working on fixes for other notes.
(13-Mar-2015) DarthCeltics
As suggested, I attempted to play some of the submitted songs on Live servers. Running three clients I was hearing snaps/pops similar to the ones that players have been hearing on Bullroarer. When you play songs with multiple parts on Live, do you often run many clients at once (as you have been on Bullroarer)? Or do you have different people playing those parts and you only have one client running?
As far as the theorbo being out of tune, I'm not hearing that after playing through several submitted songs as well as chromatic scales using specific instrument pairings. Can you please be more specific with which notes on the theorbo you're hearing that sound out of tune?
(20-Mar-2015) Vyvyanne
After that point we will continue to make tweaks as we are able based on the feedback you have given on off-notes or other issues and will be looking into adding another lute in a future update.
(27-Mar-2015) Update 15.3 Release Notes
The player music system has been spruced up a bit. There are new sounds for the bagpipe, clarinet, flute, horn, lute, pibgorn, and theorbo.
(13-Apr-2015) Vyvyanne
I do not have the resources available currently to do another focus pass on the music system but if you keep the feedback coming, submit bugs with the specific problems you are having, notes, instruments, etc we will get to them as we can.
(21-Apr-2015) Vyvyanne
We will address some of the note issues reported in the next few bug fix patches as we can and other reported issues including the potential of adding new instruments. We gathered feedback and made tweaks where we could for many months and the consensus in checking internally as well as with many of the music community was that the new system was better than the old and the preference was for getting it out before the festival season so that bands could prepare properly.
Yes. It's a comparison my friend :). A comparison to a similar situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey
How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice?
Old joke, but nothing funny about the music system.
So we practiced and practiced. One of our band members can't do the weekend tour Sunday, so we finished our tour as of now (Sat. 10:30pm server time). Nothing out of the ordinary, but we had a pretty good idea by Friday morning.
Snap-pop? Mitigated.
How? Set audio device to one device in Windows. Headphones. On log in at toon selection. make sure your audio device is detected and (1 item) selectable. Turn off all audio sliders except master, interface, and player music. Yes. this means you can't hear the audience clapping. Price you pay as a performer.
Result? We were playing at 95%? of pre-U15.3 levels of songs. Saltshaker drums? no problem. Staccato 32nd beats? Cinch. One of the nastier stress test songs on Bullroarer? Lag in chords still there, but much less. To the non-musician audience, it played fine.
What's the missing 5%? Odd gaps that pop up, about a quarter note's worth. Snap-pop sporatically. lag in chords coming in. Since the occurance is sparse, it's acceptable. Nothing is perfect.
A chat gm (+Moose) was in the audience in our last concert. I guess he was detecting it too. A normal performance. No snap-pop. no artifacts. All 16 songs volume rebalanced for U15.3. I asked him to pass the word to Vyvyanne that at least for us, it's working now. Took a while to figure out.
Practice, practice, practice.
On a side note. Maestro/abcplayer seems to not respect the audio device set in Windows, and insists on going to speaker+headphone, so I'm locked out of playback monitor when the game is running in band mode.
Now let the games begin. Resume bicker mode on tonal/bad note qualities. heh.
http://i62.tinypic.com/11sypf4.jpg
Lets put it this way : yes it is still possible to play, but no one can seriously talk about improvements here. There is ppl playing music in other online games with a really bad music system, with enough effort it's possible to play 10 track music on the old PC-beep-speaker, but that's not the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey
Point is that through this update converting songs has become more of an effort than before because first of all the volume imbalance has to be corrected and secondly instruments may need to be changed to account for the timbre changes. The sound of the last musical age that drew so many folks into lotro music is lost now. Looking at the update in detail reveals that it wasn't done in a proper way - by folks that lack the necessary time, skills or interest for such a task, there is no debating this.
From my perspective this is putting the barrier higher for ppl who want to start with lotro music. Yes, the experienced folks can still carry on, but why make it so hard for the upcomers? Just to be able to tell them to practice more?
Even knowing that my band can still carry on, I think this update was a fatal blow to the lotro music community - especially after the history of the first patch last autumn - and we can see the repercussions all over the place: bands stopping, the musical community fighting over opinions, ... you name it. The dimensions of this update are not just technical, they are also social.
And as it is with every change of an age, there will be some folks leaving and you'll find their remains in form of outdated ABC collections sounding broken like those ruins you can find all over middle earth. And being the first to come up with this metaphor I take the freedom to name the new musical age: the age of the B-string - because it'll conquer every song in which it'll be played (pong!).
In terms of volume balances i'd like to refer to my thread in the music section that lists the relative volume differences for all the instruments -
this can be either used to adjust songs to cope with the current system, or inversely to correct all the volumes in the game to get something that sounds roughly equally loud.
The conclusion is: fixing the volumes on our side is a pretty tedious task, it'd be much easier if that'd be done on the developers side.
Well said Mr Bruzo!Quote:
Originally Posted by SchorschiSchrumpf
It is very much putting a higher barrier for ppl who want to start. New players cannot even find a song to play anymore. I'd say Fat Lute or any other repository of songs is no longer any good. Maybe the odd solo.
Very rare is it, that the first song any player ever played was one they had transcribed themselves, unless you go back to the early very days of lotro. (I was there). I only see a very cloudy future.
I've avoided any comments on this thread, I've seen to many mmo's jump the rails over the years and I tend to be negative when this situation occurs. This will be my only comment on this one.
I have very little faith in developers, because of the companies that control their work. This situation usually degenerates the players into "camps", like we see here. It's like watching a good friend self destruct. This has divided an online community since last fall and will on into the foreseeable future and folks are leaving because of it. It rests in Turbine/Warner's laps now, they created it.
Personally, I think they have their priorities buggered up, people would have waited for U16 until other things were finished. Now devs are working to keep folks happy on 2 fronts. U16 and U15 music. Round and round we go.
I watched a friend remodel his house once, he never finished one project in any room. He ended up with a half renovated house and his wife divorced him. True story...
Chukkato, LBC.
I'll agree that it's hard to please everyone... But pleasing 1 out of 5 isn't good either.Quote:
Originally Posted by stupidflanders
Day 5. Played a few concerts. Note drops still there on heavy songs. Will be sending in examples to lotrobugs. Anyone else chime in? We can't be the only band that's found this?
Sigh.
OK. found the culprit. double copy of the sound driver up. So much for disabling sound devices to control snap-pop. Just played some heavy songs in rehearsal. Stronger caffeine needed this morning I think.
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Sorry Lolorndinfey,Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey
I have hung up my fancy hat. I am no longer playing. I can say I was hearing note loss but it was not consistent. Songs would test fine, then they wouldn't. I wish you the best in all of this none the less. ~bunnyhugs~
I've run into the issue, but it's hard to bug report because it's inconsistent. As Finny said, something will test fine without note drop and then have note drop when performed. Without some sort of consistency, it's hard to troubleshoot and pretty pointless to give a specific report other than "this is happening." Snap-pop is still an issue. 3D sound projection is still an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey
I'm afraid the only real work around until the system gets another focus pass is to transcribe around it. Which isn't ideal or acceptable, but the only method available.
Yeah. It may be sound card driver conflict created by LotRO? At one point with my GFX disabled I had 6 drivers up listed in my hidden icons. Ouch.
To mitigate snap-pop, only headphones is enabled in Windows "Sound". GFX is disabled. I guess invisible to me GFX is being called either by LotRO or OS, and the idle driver gadget icons are popping up unannounced to me.
GFX is a software enhancement tool with an equalizer band filter. Invaluable during beta testing. Unf there's some kind of conflict when disabled. I'm running it now, but monitoring "Sound" and gadget icon tray for performances.
When you change account windows. After about a 3-5s delay there's this consistent gap in playback if your main account is set to persistent. It lasts about a quarter note or so, then playback resumes.
Just adding this sound driver check into our high maintenance routine before performances. Identified and working around it.
Spinning that hamster wheel as fast as we can!
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I think there are those two different things, lotro-game-client hickups (in term of short freezes) and snap-pops. The first one might be just something general that has nothing to do with the music itself, the second to me sounds typically like parts of music samples that are played at much higher instead of reduced volume, i.e. they are mixed into the output stream without proper volume adjustment.
Is it possible that it's a synchronization problem of a multi threaded way to mix the sound? I don't know much about windows process management, but maybe there is a way to force lotro to run on a single core only to see if that makes a difference.
That was my instinct, too:Quote:
Originally Posted by SchorschiSchrumpf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurallor
Good idea. It's pretty easy to do in Windows:Quote:
Originally Posted by SchorschiSchrumpf
- After you enter the game, go back to the desktop and press Control+Shift+Esc to open the Task Manager.
- Click on the Processes tab.
- Find the lotroclient.exe process and right-click on it.
- Choose "Set Affinity...". Here you can select which processor(s) your process will use.
Setting Affinity seems to make things worse. Just curious. What other bugs have you encountered that this technique would fix?
CPU used by Lotroclient seems to be standard architecture based for addressing memory, so procs 0, 2, 4, 6 are used on default.
Increasing or decreasing priority is much worse in generating the snap-pop issue. I dont believe this is a symptom of the process, but rather the audio call that is being doubled during the transition to the different priority. For eg. setting priority on all accounts seems to double or more the occurrence of snap-pop per account window.
The occurrence of multiple audio drivers on my end seems to be halted processes of the sound driver trying to access a disabled device, so the gadget icon sits idle.
Just now waiting for Update 16 hot fixes to be released, and then hopefully hearing back from the Ithryn Luin (blue wizards) on this issue.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyvyanne
You made a back-up of the old system before you started tinkering with it right?
Please tell me, that you devs, as a people who work in a field where making backups is routine common sense, have made a backup...
If there is no backup - then I'm sorry but imho you deserve to be sacked.
Until we have something we can truly call BETTER instead of the effective NERF we have at present - I want the old system back.
I miss it's timbre, it's life, it's individuality.
IDK. Just happy to have identified work arounds to just be able to play an ensemble/multi-part song at this point. Volume adjustments; possible.
Avoiding snap-pop with reduced support ability like double checking the song volume prior to playback using abcmusicplayer not working. meh.
No sound effects during a concert. It's lonely behind the scenes. Just the emotes and say's are visible.
Timbre. One of the reasons I was using GFX (now disabled) was because it added bass, reverb, ambiance, tone to the in game sound samples. Now the only audio enhancement is bass boost inside Windows "Sound" properties. EAX is just.... weird. Side by side vs GFX it's like a good telephone vs 24 track studio quality. I still turn it on when I game normally after a reboot. Part of the checklist to perform prior to playing a concert.
But for us, it's all for the audience. As long as it sounds good and they enjoy it, what we think really isn't in the picture, or performance?
Concert tour this weekend will be delayed due to the Hotfix. At least the U16 hotfix is out. Whether there will be another hotfix before the devs get to re-address the issue, that remains to be seen. And then there's the Weatherstock rotation coming up. it really doesn't sound like it's gonna bode well at this point. Time sensitive issue.
Ever been in a team/camping situation? Leader has spoken. No roll-backs. Help out. Identify problems. Document. Suggest solutions
If you're gonna gripe. I truly wish you luck. I guess you're banking a on a popularity contest. If you choose to gripe, don't do it alone. Get 20, 100, 500... others to agree with you. One tends to be read once and moved along, a group saying the same thing tends to get more attention. Just a suggestion.
What's that phrase again?; Illustrate, tell a story, advise. Don't dictate, scold, command. Judgement is the bane of civilization. Man, I got some homework to do to find the sources of these phrases.
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Still does not change what I said - a backup should have been made. If there is a backup - a roll back is always possible. That fact does not change despite Vyv saying its not "feasible".Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey
I am not musically educated in the slightest, every transcription of mine has been done by ear alone. I have no idea how the music system's inner workings - work...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey
Therefore I cannot offer "suggestions"
All I can do is complain that it sounds like s***!
So sorry if my lack of education offends you.
So sorry, how rude of me to assume my voice would be heard if just little old me writes a post on the forum. It takes but one pebble to start an avalanche...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey
The problem is that the avalanche has already occurred and passed. Bands have stopped playing, people have given up. Fincin has stopped playing his wonderful music. Bruzo and I are stumped, not able to make new songs that sound good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingleton
The time has come to just give up. If our voices mean nothing to them, maybe our wallets will, and I'm fixing to close mine.
Thank you for the awesome compliment!Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie1435
Its true, the avalanche already began. A few main and popular bands have already quit performing and with good cause.
The update was horrible and should have never been put live. Granted, a few sour notes were fixed but as was stated time and time again, the timbre far outweighed the sour notes in importance.
For me, its been a deathblow to my music. Everything sounds lifeless and generic. Someone earlier said you cannot even tell which band is playing anymore since they all sound the same now. I guess this was Turbines way of making music in easy mode for everyone as they have done to so many things already.
They have refused what was most requested from what I could tell in the forums, and that was for another rollback. I couldn't agree more that it was needed and warranted. The new system did show potential but was lacking and should have stayed in beta until it was honed and ready.
My fear is now we will see nothing more done for lack of resources that are now being put into the recent updates bugs. I would like to think I am wrong about that, but its what my gut tells me.
The argument for closing your wallet is a good one however its a two way sword. Less funding will put us further back on the repair list I figure but at the same time, I was paying and ready to go another year when they decided to go live with the new music system. A decision I strongly went against. I cannot at this point see giving money anymore since I now lack the faith in good decisions from the Dev's (or their masters) concerning the music and have chosen to instead, invest in the future music system of Shroud of the Avatar. Its a risky gamble, but no worse than buying another year of VIP here when there is no guarantee it will ever be fixed. For me, I cannot see paying when the music was 90% or more of my play time. Moreover, I am now suffering from a huge increase in my cpu usuage from Turbine which I still have no been able to fix. I could box 8 accounts and my cpu stayed under 65% usage. Now I cannot run more than 3 and I hit well above the 65% usage mark. That alone will keep me from wanting to continue. I have heard a few others say they noticed an increase as well so no telling what is causing it but it needs fixed as well. I bugged it as a performance issue but have heard nothing back since and that was more than a few weeks ago. Lotro is the only game I have that is doing it and if I shut down turbine, my cpu drops back to 0% usage. It feels like being kicked while down.
I wish those that continue, the best of luck. I however will continue my absence from the game until they either fix the music or roll it back.
I would also like to offer a special wish of good luck to the Lonely Mountain Band with Weatherstock this year.
There are a lot of good folks that are getting less than they deserve right now.
@Ingleton
Check fire. Same team. Offering suggestions on being heard. I am guilty of offering advice to someone not asking for it. Problem with forums is that you can't tell the tone of the speaker. Just be careful you don't misread and interpret it not as intended and risk a CG violation.
Harlequins already had played 6 concerts, all 21 songs (old and new) converted to Update 16 format. 6 servers. 3 conflicts. Bands are playing. We even offered to take turns and relocated twice to accomodate the other bands. Mother's day. I guess a lot of bands love their mothers too. heh. Just saying. Problem with playing on one server or a few is that you don't get to see the bigger picture Turbine see's. True Landroval is the Carnegie Hall of LotRO for the sheer number of musicians, but there are other bands, on other servers, that are still playing. Happily? That's a matter to gripe about?
I can only do what we can. Cope. offer support. Dodge when other musicians are chucking friendly fire, and hope Vyv lives up to her word and come back and address this issue once U16 hotfixes are done. Time sensitive matter. Remember Vyvyanne?
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I'll agree that bands are playing. I would hope the update wouldn't get us ALL down. But there is one thing that has to be remembered: There are MASSIVE BANDS like the TSO. When it's difficult to properly arrange a song that sounds good for 7, I guarantee you that it's near impossible for 24-person bands like TSO. If you only have to worry about a few instruments, 3-6 parts, it's not as bad as dealing with 7+. Definitely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolorndinfey
The bands that are still playing are not the problem. We are the musicians that somehow managed to push through(Albeit our songs sound a lot worse). I'm not saying those who have stopped don't have that same determination, in fact, they probably have MORE determination. They are determined to get their music system fixed, to get their songs sounding the same as Pre-U15.3.
The bands that have stopped playing should NOT be ignored. Again, bands that are still playing are not the problem, bands that AREN'T playing are. The reason? No update should drive players away. If anything, it should bring more in.
I don't care about those still playing. I care about those who are not, those who were driven away by this broken system. That's where the problem lies. That's why the system needs to be fixed.
-Glorg
Hi Folks,
I thought I'd update you as to what I am doing at the moment. It is true the quality of the sound fonts makes arranging and playing music less fun for me. I have decided to have a wait and see outlook while continuing with my Monthly Tour of Servers. I have performed with TSO a 14 piece set which was a good set but I had to use all my wits and tricks to make it so. To be honest I wasn't totally happy with my arrangements but It was a tolerable Big Band set. I have also arranged for a smaller band to play more a more modern set, again using my tricks and wits to make a palatable hours worth of arrangements. TSO24 is not possible at this present time, there is no way I want to invest so much time on big arrangement for it to be obsolete within a short period of time. Also TSO is an orchestra which includes all LOTRO instruments - but it is near impossible to work around the Lutes, Bags and other issue in instrument ranges and still have an arrangement I would be proud to present.
I am hopeful we will still get some attention from the Devs. I know we are not forgotten. I don't mind waiting, it gives me time to do some more exploring, deeding, play acting and other aspects of the game.
We play Dwarrowdelf on the 30th May at 2.00pm Server Time. Please come out and support our special performance.
Well it's not like I'd miss a concert on my home server :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Katiepie
Closing this thread. You can find a new thread here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...em-adjustments