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Having played both to nearly the same level (52 as of this writing), I have no bias towards either class. That said, I would prefer to see WDNs get some serious attention before MNS, which just had several revisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
Hmm masterys staying as traits, but not stating how? Hmmm well that's interesting speculation. Maybe set bonuses? Maybe consolidated with another trait? Maybe maybe...
Maybe all of them consolidated into one legendary trait.
I'd slot it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShammWoww
He's placating you!! Champs will still take your jobs.
That would imply that Wardens actually have jobs right now, which we all know isn't true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
As set bonuses? God I hope not. Then instead of 5/1/1 we'd all have to go 2/2/3 or re-learn the class AGAIN. I for one hope they get put under Way of the Warden or something (or maybe they ditch WotW altogether for a consolidated Mastery trait?).Quote:
Originally Posted by LtDiablo
Well played wardens do.Quote:
Originally Posted by brasswire12
I have zero problems having a warden tank, as long as they know how to play the class. Same as any other class really.
But the warden forums have only themselves to blame for being undesirable.
Posting how epic they are, look at me, I can solo teh whole of teh game!
We are not wardens, we are wadens, and on and on.
Then people group with wardens, and find out that no, wardens are not that great.
But its not the class and its gambits, its the skills of the players.
I have had the pleasure of playing with many a great player on there warden, and wardens are pretty awesome. Same with guards, some are great, some not, and its not the classes fault.
But I've also played with some badly played (enter class here) and bad played is bad played.
Yes the wardens need a few tweaks, for raiding and the threat recovery skill definitely needs some reworking, but again, well played wardens do just fine.
That's kinda the fault of the game tho, everyone solos to lvl cap, then when they get in a group, no one has any idea how to play, so they have to unlearn what they have learned.
You can take this however you want, you may think I'm hating on wardens, but that's just not the case.
I'd slot that for a dollar.Quote:
Originally Posted by LtDiablo
Yerrrrrrrrrbs!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
Or DC... yeah...Quote:
Originally Posted by ANewMachine
Honest answer: I forgot DC existed, and thus didn't even consider replacing it. Hah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morcanden
Its nice to see you're looking into wardens Orion, but you missed some points:
1. 3/4 of the gambits we learn are useless when we reach lvl cap.
2. Our first ports are gained too late, when we dont need them anymore. Especially Evendim and Riven.
3. We only have one stance now used 99% of the time. We switch to another when we kite if low on morale. There's a third, almost worst then Champ's Ardour.
4. From the "dps" line, only one trait really does make a difference: cd on javelin skills. Not counting the mastery, of course.
5. When you reach late 40's, early 50's, you have to forget everything you learned about your warden. Start from scratch, you use masteries now.
6. Only class that has just 4 trait slots. Who unslots masteries?
7. A buff to our dps gambit that actually lowers the DPS output -
8. Most raid encounters make use of aggro swapping between two tanks. Wardens cant do that.
9. A useless trait line. Yeah, I am harsh, but I am right. Why would anyone slot for Fist instead of Shield?
10. Even the bonuses for slotting heavy on shield are bad (really, more block rating? we are (almost) capped without using any gambit) but the traits are good and the capstone is worth it.
11. Only class that cant cure its wound/fear/posion/... with a skill.
12. Never Surrender is a sad joke. Like Captain's Fighting Withdrawal, LM's Continual Air-lore, Burglar's Burgle, RK's Armaments Of...
I don't see why NS can't be a gambit.
Will still require 'recently revived' to use.
Skill use consumes 'recently revived' status.
I don't see a reason for it to have a long CD, if you have to meet those requirements on use.
Or even give it a secondary effect when 'recently revived' is not active, for example: it increases all non-common mitigations by 500 for 30s.
I totally agree, i dont see how that would be any different than DbtD.Quote:
Originally Posted by geoboy
Also i would LOVE it if they changed it so that there was only one trait to slot for masteries, not as much as if they changed them to trainable skills but ill take what i can get.
The chained gambit builder is something I have called for for a long time. I hope, as other people have already mentioned, that it is controllable, but common sense tells us that this probably does not even need to be said.
I like the changes to the champion class as well. I do not mind if they become viable tanks as long as wardens/guards can also be viable dps. There are already many advertisements for "need champ and heals" for the new instances, where champs are preferred over wardens and guardians.
That said:
Wardens have been asking for a secondary role since the class launched. I'm sure all the other wardens have been told "we already have a tank." RKs can switch roles, and it'd be great if wardens, as a premium class, can do so as well.
1. Fist line
I would prefer a different direction for this line than threat generation. As I have no problem with threat generation main-tanking in other lines, this does not entice me, especially as it really has no other real bonuses. Also, Orion mentioned that shield is the preferred tanking line. I personally don't see a point in getting another tanking line. I would much rather any buffs the devs feel wardens need in terms of tanking be applied to our "preferred" tanking line.
Sorry I don't have a very good idea for what direction fist should take.
2.Spear line
I mentioned before that I'm fine with champs tanking if wardens can dps. The problem we have with dps, other than that it isn't great, is that we run out of power and can't get it back. Again, if champs get a further boost to tanking (and they are already preferred over guard/wardens for many instances), then wardens' spear line should become our dps line.
a. have a line set bonus that reduces threat generation of spear gambits or give us a gambit to reduce threat - I don't put out that much dps, but always seem to pull aggro
b. have the stance Recklessness reduce bpe further and cut our health in half in exchange for permanent Dark Before Dawn availability - this would allow us to plan our dbd for power, which is difficult to do when we don't have mobs hitting on us. This also is in line with the RK mentality of "can't do two things at once." We can of course pick up tanking if the maintank goes down by switching stances, but it'd be at reduced effectiveness just like RK's untraited healing (see a). So what's to prevent wardens from switching to Recklessness for power while maintanking? I don't really see a problem with that as it knocks off half your health. That's pretty much like getting hit by a boss skill that you could have avoided.
c. have a set bonus that makes the spear gambits (not builders) a frontal aoe - Combat Analysis shows us that auto attacks and the gambit builders combine for more than 60 percent of our total damage. Our spear gambits are actually not that powerful. That said, giving them an aoe component would get us welcomed into groups as a viable dps option. It doesn't make us dps machines but makes us more than respectable. The other suggestions certainly help, but without a dps boost, we are only marginally better than captains without the buffs.
Doing this would give us a viable secondary role. Thanks for reading
Some points I disagree withQuote:
Originally Posted by HolyGigi
2. Hunters don't get their ports in time either, but to state that our ports have any "need" anyways is a little silly, we only port ourselves. But I know I use my Evendim port and Rivendell port especially a lot.
3. A lot of Wardens on this board alone run in Recklessness now when they DPS tank, and the masses usually run Conservation, Determination is really the only one that needs a high priority look although Recklessness could use some tweaking.
4. Umm I like my -40% power trait, but then again I use my Spear Builder a little more and my +10% Javelin damage trait oh and I like the +5% Gambit damage, although it could stand to get a bump to +10%.
5. I don't completely disagree with this, but I think you over-exaggerate a bit.
6. I only slot 2 so I have 5 traits lol that was my only disagreement.
8. Not necessarily disagreeing with this point, just wanted to make the note that it's still doable without aggro swaps as has been stated in other thread, just takes a little more coordination.
Wooow, there i really poked the bear now didn't i?Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
While it is true some of us come across all 'give me, give me' The simple truth of the matter is most of us are reasonable but realize where the class is stronger and weaker although The Trolls blow anything said one way or the other way out of proportion. So you have to kind of read between the lines about what we [The Warden community] think about things.
Fact! Ok, you had something to say about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
On this note only three class dont have power issue's Champions in fervour, Loremaster's and Guardians. all other Classes have power issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
You addressed that...However, i would hardly say that its that big of a deal to have to trait masteries. It is annoying, yes, but considering all the other "useless" traits out there what choice do we have thats better...im not even going to touch on Fist line but here are a few good stinkers, as examples: Skill and Power, Wary Blocks and Shield Trickery to name a few. Really who in their right mind would slot Skill and power?Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
You have to give us that. NS sucks is a understatement. What is worse is that it was more or less a Slap in the face from the the dev team. We ask for something that we do in fact need. After all, any other class that dies mid fight can get a rez and pick up where they left off but not a Warden and when we cry loud enough we get this Joke of a skill put on us just to shut us up. For future reference, if you guys dont want to give us something, its better off to just not give it at all then to begrudgingly give us something that will only make us cry louder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
You did touch on somethings like tweaking morale leaches to help tank in raids, Thats good news. You did say that you were going to do something to Determination, thats good too!
What was not touched on was that due to some raid boss fight mechanics, Wardens have trouble with threat swaps. This is a common mechanic and while its not impossible to do with two Wardens right now it is very risky to try. Wardens Have no threat management tools in our overstuffed bag of tricks. A bag of tricks, that i may add, that only about 60% of said tricks are all that good at all, well maybe 70%. This is what i would say is the hot ticket atm. I mean there are other things like that Wardens have less crit defense, though to give credit where credit is due the OD set bonus and, even though you seem a bit washy on what you plan to do with Determination you mentioned crit defense on that aswell. The rest are pet peeves more then anything else but still Defiant challenge... needs tweaked, i wouldnt say overhauled as i like it. DC has Increased Threat on ten targets and a sweet damage reflect on it... so you dont want us to be able to spam it, Thats fine, I dont want to be able to spam it. I also dont want a five sec animation before anything happens either, There has to some middle ground. I also get terribly annoyed when im stunned during the animation on a gambit causing the gambit to not take effect after burring my mastery cool downs. i could go on and on, all of which i have complained about before and no i dont expect Turbine's busy Dev team to jump on every little thing every time i complain. But, i do want the glaring problems resolved. What i really would like is a Dev who plays the class and understands these issues like...many of the posters here do. Then maybe I wouldn't feel as though Turbine's Development Team were so out of touch with what is really going on. And, and, and, and..
Frankly, I'll likely be happy either way you turn. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
no, no, don't listen to him. silly Banaticus, info is for Wardens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banaticus
Fredacar, what happened to your signature? Why aren't any of those underlined phrases links to posts?
Anyway, I'm sure Orion has access to how often certain gambits are built and fired by end-game wardens. Deft Strike and Offensive Strike mean that I messed up some other gambit.
nothing happened, te underlined stuff was always meant as emphasis only so people would notice the difference between my version and the oiginal. I suppose I could do something about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banaticus
Hello guys! First time posting in here or in any of the forums at that. I've been playing the warden class since it came out and it was my first character. Since I started playing, there has been a few things I wish the devs added to the class in some of the updates. This is kinda of a big post so bear with me.
Alright! So, for starters. One of the things I thought the class would have was at least 5% over the B/P/E. If not over the cap, at least have them gain a direct partial gain, somewhere around 5%. Example: After shield mastery, shields up will give an increase to B/P/E's partials by 5%.
Shield-bash and warden's taunt both have at least two things going for them. Shield-bash direct damage plus a chance to increase block rating. (Btw, is the damage ever going to get scaled on shied-bash and all other shield attacks?) Warden's taunt gives light damage and increases threat slightly. Why not give quick thrust an attack duration buff besides the damage?
Conservation is fine as is imo. Determination should give a common/other damage mitigation bonus. Remove the B/E penalty from Reckless and increase parry. Way of the warden should reflect any legacies you have for the stances.
Forced march not have a -power penalty at all.Hunters are only 4% shy away from ours with a legacy and its fellowship wide. It's not game breaking if we have 4% more is it? (Or will the hobbits be mad at us for running away faster while we steal their cookies?)
Just make NS a gambit. Shield/shield/spear/fist/fist?
I would really like to see them bump our DPS. Some of the traits do a nice job, but I don't feel its enough. Some of the DPS legacies are lack luster and kinda just thrown out there imo. This class has great potential with bleeds and Dots. (Specially love the bleeds!) Why not have a legacy that increases bleed damage (bleed multiplier and bleed stack chance?) Instead of having things like mighty blow/wages of fear positional/critical strike/ambush multiplier which only concentrate on 1 skill and instead have 1 legacy that benefits 3-4 skills. Even having adroit/wardens triumph duration is kinda meh imo since I usually refresh wardens triumph before it runs out in my rotation. (Adroit maneuver is kinda bleak since it only increases my auto attack duration. I'm not a big fan of it)
Some of our self buff like dance of war evade rating/shield mastery block rating feel useless as is, I can cap block or evade depending on the gear setup I have (again turn it into a straight partial increase %)
I'd really love to see Conviction/Dance of war/maddening strike have a legacy that increases the overall threat transfer.
Combination strike and offensive strike have a certain % to disarm my opponent. Obviously make certain mobs/bosses immune to this.
Critical strike adds a bleed on crits and wages of fear adds a bleed on positional?
Finally from legacies, what comes to mind atm, for wardens using spears mostly ( I mean, we do have a trait line called way of the spear) I was kinda surprised when they gave guards melee range instead of us :/ I believe it really fits with the play style wardens have.
Wow, this is kinda long :P I'll stop right there lol XD. I guess I'll add what I think about trait lines and legendary skills (and anything else I missed) on a later post. Don't want this to be a huge post. These are just ideas that I think would benefit our class and such, I'm not saying these are things that SHOULD be added, but things to be considered and what I've seen from playing the warden class. Thank you for reading such a long post. (I don't even know if this is the right place to post this lol!)
The damage *is* the benefit. It's got, what, 3x the damage of any of the other builders? QT will make up a surprisingly large proportion of a properly planned DPS rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkseraphimmv
Not sure I agree. It's still better than Hunters for the first 45 levels, when few people group regularly, and after that you can get the power penalty reducing legacy. Even after that, it requires significant investment by the Hunter to get it up to that "within 4%," which most probably won't do because the legacy doesn't increase their DPS at all. Maybe we could get an increase in the Forced March Power Penalty legacy, but that's about as far as I'd take it.Quote:
Forced march not have a -power penalty at all.Hunters are only 4% shy away from ours with a legacy and its fellowship wide. It's not game breaking if we have 4% more is it? (Or will the hobbits be mad at us for running away faster while we steal their cookies?)
I think other than that and the NS suggestion, a lot of this ventures way too far into OP territory (WoS and DoW being straight +% for instance).
Disagree. Forced March isn't even useful at that point because all of the time you "save" with it is spent recovering power. Add to that that it's only generally "useful" in towns (no mobs), unpopulated areas, cleared instances, and outleveled areas. Oh, and sometimes PvMP.Quote:
Originally Posted by ANewMachine
Also, does the Forced March legacy even still exist? Haven't seen that one in a while...
Forced March and Find the Path are mostly useless these days as anyone can ride a mount as of level 5 and that's much faster then both skills. the only real time these skill are of any value is in Moria in case you don't have a goat or for PvMP.