Getting the Community back to where it needs to be

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Originally Posted by t-town-colt

One time in middle school a kid pushed me and started making fun of me. My mom told me to tell the teacher, so i did. He got a slap on the wrist and continued. So next time i took my dads advice, and punched him in the mouth. Sure my hand hurt, but his mouth was all messed up and he didn't bother me again.

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You can punch your computer all you want but I don't think it's going to accomplish what you're hoping.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

In other words, don't hit back. Don't 'defend' yourself. Let it go. Or if you prefer the 'internet' version, "Don't feed the trolls". Report it. Walk away. Be the bigger, and better person.

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All true and sound, the problem being we, human beings, are defected mechanisms. I, for example, 8 out of 10 times practiced what I too have often preached (parallel to what Sapience says above); but on one occasion I reacted. (That makes a total of 9 out of 10 times; then where is the tenth? It's the one time when the forum forced logout saved me :D )
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Originally Posted by brasswire12

You can punch your computer all you want but I don't think it's going to accomplish what you're hoping.

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No but il spell it out for you. You can hurt someone physically,also emotionally. If someones disrespecting you, sure you can tell the devs, but unless they specifically did something against the rules, nothing is gonna happen. If you get them good they might actually shut up. Sure you might get in trouble, but if it fets someone off my back then its worth it.

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Originally Posted by brasswire12

You can punch your computer all you want but I don't think it's going to accomplish what you're hoping.

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His computer will never bother him again.

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Originally Posted by t-town-colt

No but il spell it out for you. You can hurt someone physically,also emotionally. If someones disrespecting you, sure you can tell the devs, but unless they specifically did something against the rules, nothing is gonna happen. If you get them good they might actually shut up. Sure you might get in trouble, but if it fets someone off my back then its worth it.

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Yeah? How do you "get someone good" on the internet? PM me with "something good." You can believe or not believe the following as you wish, but if you do PM me, it's not going to "get me," good or bad (and I promise not to report it, no matter how foul, sick, disgusting or depraved).

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Originally Posted by brasswire12

You can punch your computer all you want but I don't think it's going to accomplish what you're hoping.

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I really liked this so I had to give you +rep.

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Originally Posted by Elaida

I generally try to remain constructive as long as possible, but yes, no matter how constructive and peaceful my original intentions are, I won't stay that way if I'm being intentionally misunderstood and having my own words turned backwards and hurled straight back at me through spinning blades of a fan with some additional... uh, garbage added on them. What I'm saying is that even the most peaceful and constructive forum user does have his or her limits on how much of the general disrespect he or she can handle.

This is the reason why I have been quiet-ish at these forums compared to how active I was back at Codemasters a few years back. Back then, writing long suggestion thread with elaborated arguments about why it would be a good thing wasn't taken as licking the company's bottom by the other players, but as offering genuine feedback or ideas. I was told once that one of my posts regarding the communication between the company and playerbase was printed out and shown at a meeting somewhere to have people think about it. Back then, it felt worth posting.

As of today, at these forums, I don't really bother. I have had single sentences - or sometimes half a sentence - pulled out of a long post, out of context, and used against me through turning the whole point of the post upside down. I've had that happening to my posts way too many times. This is the main reason why I have "given up" with posting any feedback here. If you elaborate your thoughts and make the post longer three lines, someone will pick out a small part of it only to turn it against you.

Yes, I could resort to short posts, but they wouldn't help anyone. I see posts like "it sucks" or "it's great" in place of feedback as being pointless. In my opinion, being more elaborate and explaining why something sucks or is great is way more important. And, when someone does just that, as in tells the "why" behind his or her personal opinion, it should be responded to within it's full context instead of ripping it to small pieces.

I could even blow up your post, turn it upside down, crush it and attack you with the shrapnel that results from all of it, but no, I won't do that. It's not my way, and I wouldn't really want it to be chosen by anyone as the way to act. Doing that repeatedly here at the forums is pretty close to same as saying "screw you" to the person whose post is being blown up that way.

The thing is that quoting small parts of posts and replying to those quoted parts only isn't really against the rules, and the people who are acting this way obviously know it's perfectly legitimate way to provoke other forum users. They are not really breaking any rules, but they are still making me extremely annoyed. I'm not the only target of course, and I'm pretty sure there are many others who feel the same way.

We'll see where the discussion here leads, or whether you, Sapience, or anyone else, find anything valuable in this little wall of text or not. Over and out - for now.

(Note: I could have made this post very short by saying "Yes, you're absolutely right!" or something similar, but that, again, wouldn't be my way, as I think the "why" is more important than simply agreeing or disagreeing.)

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Personally, I rarely write a long post. Writing a long post, in my case, is a way of expressing an entire point of view. Once done, it is finished. People might respond to it but I have said what I wanted to say. I don’t see how progress is made unless you ultimately end up taking one point at a time and following it to its conclusion. So-called walls of text are great for expressing opinions and as a starting point, but that is where it ends for me; until the overall issue might need to be restated for further individual point value clarification, or for final summation. I see no/little “taking one point at a time and logically following it all the way to its conclusion” going on in the forums. Perhaps I have missed it. Personally I post here just to express my opinions; when I post an arduously long post such as this one I am about to end, is beginning to become. Of course there are exceptions for various reasons.

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Originally Posted by t-town-colt

No but il spell it out for you. You can hurt someone physically,also emotionally. If someones disrespecting you, sure you can tell the devs, but unless they specifically did something against the rules, nothing is gonna happen. If you get them good they might actually shut up. Sure you might get in trouble, but if it fets someone off my back then its worth it.

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If someone's goal is to annoy you, then insulting them in return is not likely to shut them up; it's far more likely that you have just given that person the satisfaction of knowing that their goal was achieved and that you are, in fact, annoyed. Then they continue on their merry way, happily finding others to pick on because they now know that their strategy works.

You may think you've won the point by getting in a good burn, but the true trolls aren't going to feel any pain. The only ones who might be hurt are those who perhaps stated their case too passionately but had not deliberately intended to offend, and hurting those folks hurts you both because you've missed the chance to clear the air and understand each other better.

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Originally Posted by t-town-colt

One time in middle school a kid pushed me and started making fun of me. My mom told me to tell the teacher, so i did. He got a slap on the wrist and continued. So next time i took my dads advice, and punched him in the mouth. Sure my hand hurt, but his mouth was all messed up and he didn't bother me again.

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I knew a guy who did virtually the same thing. Two days later he disappeared, and 30 years later we still do not know what became of him. Probably, he just suddenly decided to move to a tropical paradise and is currently living the life of Riley.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

When I was a kid I played football. My coach used to tell us, "it doesn't matter if he hit you first, or made you mad enough to hit him. Don't. Because the ref is going to see YOU every time."

When I got older, a friend of my father's gave me the best piece of advice I ever heard, "It's not bait unless you bite."

In other words, don't hit back. Don't 'defend' yourself. Let it go. Or if you prefer the 'internet' version, "Don't feed the trolls". Report it. Walk away. Be the bigger, and better person. Save yourself from an infraction (they're hoping your retaliation gets you banned before they do, it's the game they play).

No one is perfect and we all cave to it occasionally, but look at it this way..

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I know. It's just not often that easy to figure out whether the reply was based on genuine misunderstanding or if it was an intentional provokation. Real intention can be masked behind an innocent-looking question, and the truth gets revealed when even the most basic clarification is still being misunderstood and twisted when there's absolutely no way anyone could misunderstand anything that was written.

When you find out that you have already been provoked to waste time on clarifying something to a person whose only intention has been to provoke yourself, it doesn't take much effort to post again, compared to the effort spent earlier into the attempts of being friendly and constructive. At the phase where constructivity is no longer needed, as it doesn't have any effect, I don't really care whether I'm making the forums a better or worse place.

I know perfectly well that it's a poor way to act, but as I have said, and as you also admitted above, everyone has their limits. I'm sure even YOU have your limits; it's just a matter of where those limits are and how they can be breached.

Nevertheless, I have apparently been able to respond in reasonable enough manner even when I've "taken the bait", as I have yet to see infractions. I think I've had one or two posts deleted as they included quotes from someone who probably got infractions, but I haven't received any. I'm guessing that's because I don't fall all the way down to personal insults, namecalling and foul language, but only change the tone of my written text enough to make it clear whether I'm being friendly or not. The posts I have written in this thread I would categorize as "friendly". Very much so.

One big thing these forums are lacking - in my opinion - is respect for personal opinions. Everyone should understand that opinions are never facts, nor do they claim to be facts. Opinions can't be right or wrong; they represent the way the poster thinks, from his or her own point of view. Way too often I have seen complete, utter disrespect towards such opinions here.

That is one thing I wouldn't tolerate if I had any say in the moderation. Disagreeing, being of a different opinion, is perfectly fine, but when you clearly and directly claim that the other poster is wrong and you are right when the discussion is not about facts but opinions, it is nothing but disrespectful. Everyone should remember that. Also, when someone posts an opinion that is a complete opposite of yours, you should use it as fuel for further discussion instead of starting up heated arguments and flamewars that seem to happen too often.

The real discussion, with everyone's opinions being respected, is very rare on these forums, though the same applies to many other gaming forums. Larger the audience, more likely it is that there's someone - or a few - among the crowd whose only goal is to provoke others. And yes, they are often too clever to be recognized at the first glance. Written text doesn't show your body language, facial expressions, your tone and so on, making it difficult to figure out whether the response was genuine or a provokation.

Figuring it out is even more difficult when you are not a native speaker of the language used. My native language is Finnish and skills I have in English are probably fairly good in terms of non-native speakers. Still, I am not flawless in interpreting the intention of other posters. When the other poster isn't a native English speaker either, it adds to the confusion and gives more chances for misinterpretations.

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Originally Posted by RKL

I knew a guy who did virtually the same thing. Two days later he disappeared, and 30 years later we still do not know what became of him. Probably, he just suddenly decided to move to a tropical paradise and is currently living the life of Riley.

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As a follow-up to this:


You might want to know what happened to the guy who got his face punched.

He went on to become the most respected guy in town. (at least to his face)

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Originally Posted by Elaida

One big thing that these forums are lacking - in my opinion - is respect for personal opinions. Everyone should understand that opinions are never facts, nor do they claim to be facts. Opinions can't be right or wrong; they are personal opinions, representing the way the poster thinks, from his or her point of view. Way too often, I have seen complete, utter disrespect towards opinions here.

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It's hard to correct that on internet forums when that's the way many comport themselves in the rest of their lives. Look at topical discussion shows on cable news and what you'll see are the hosts and guests ridiculing the positions of the opposition.

It seems most people want validation of their already-held beliefs, not robust debate.

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Originally Posted by commodore1

Sorry, got logged off while trying to post this.



Everytime I read this it sounds like "kiss my bum or I won't fix anything." Shouldn't Turbine be wanting all the feedback they can get to fix their broken product? Not just the sugar sweetness, but the bad taste too! I mean you are getting paid to put out a working successful product right? I'm sure you're tired of "this game sux, fix the ol so many problems" but a comment like that tells me there are a great many problems and Turbine is sweeping it under the rug. Why not fix the problems while in test and not throw them into live? This community has bent over backwards for this game and still you need to be asked to do your jobs with sugary goodness, instead of because you were already paid to do so. So here goes Can you please fix the many many problems this game has so the product will be better and the community will support you again?


And when i say you i mean turbine.

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Its not at all "kiss my bum" as you put it. If you can't tell someone you are frustrated without being a jerk then you really aren't offering anything useful. The "this game sux fix the ol so many problems" doesn't tell them anything other then the person is frustrated. It doesn't tell them what the problem is that is frustrating them. If its any bug at all, then they have unrealistic software expectations and probably should give up using computers and learn how to use an abacus.

Your whole post is pretty much making up excuses for people to throw tantrums. Tantrums are for 2 year olds and should be ignored, as should people acting like 2 year olds.

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Originally Posted by Elaida

<snip> (As I agree with it)

Figuring it out is even more difficult when you are not a native speaker of the language used. My native language is Finnish and skills I have in English are probably fairly good in terms of non-native speakers. Still, I am not flawless in interpreting the intention of other posters. When the other poster isn't a native English speaker either, it adds to the confusion and gives more chances for misinterpretations.

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I agree with this. Not everyone here has English as their native language. For me, personally, living in the UK has helped me a great deal in this regard though, especially in the region I live in, where there are a fair few difficult dialects to decipher when you're first here.

Saying that, from observing your abilities throughout LOTRO's life, both on these forums and on the old Codemasters forums, where we from the EU took up residence prior to migration, they are on very good skills. You can express yourself in English and make yourself understood. I wonder how many would be able to do that who are non-native Finnish, or even Swedish speakers. I know I have little to no understanding of Finnish ;)

But yes, the nature of the LOTRO forums now is that they are multi-cultural and multi-lingual, and not every non-native English speaker have the same levels of proficiency with English. It can't but make things a lot harder for the Moderation of these forums either.

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Originally Posted by Whart

If someone's goal is to annoy you, then insulting them in return is not likely to shut them up; it's far more likely that you have just given that person the satisfaction of knowing that their goal was achieved and that you are, in fact, annoyed. Then they continue on their merry way, happily finding others to pick on because they now know that their strategy works.

You may think you've won the point by getting in a good burn, but the true trolls aren't going to feel any pain. The only ones who might be hurt are those who perhaps stated their case too passionately but had not deliberately intended to offend, and hurting those folks hurts you both because you've missed the chance to clear the air and understand each other better.

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I disagree with the first part say something good enough and they will feel it. Trick is you cant have any boundaries.

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Originally Posted by t-town-colt

I disagree with the first part say something good enough and they will feel it.

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I guarantee you your "zingers" do not have half the effect you think they do, whether here, elsewhere on the net or anywhere.

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Trick is you cant have any boundaries.

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On a forum like this, either you accept boundaries or you have to be willing to accept the consequences. If a post is truly that crushingly demoralizing, it will be deleted, possibly before the intended recipient sees it, in addition to the poster being subjected to forum discipline.

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Originally Posted by VoronturEU

Saying that, from observing your abilities throughout LOTRO's life, both on these forums and on the old Codemasters forums, where we from the EU took up residence prior to migration, they are on very good skills. You can express yourself in English and make yourself understood.

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Thank you. *bows and tips his nonexistent hat*

I have to admit I have had way more practice than most, even though I have never even traveled outside of my home country. Back in school, I didn't care about languages at all, but only studied barely enough to get through the exams. When I was about 19 or 20 years old, I realized I needed English language almost daily among my hobbies (computers, gaming, etc) so I began to think: What would be a good and fun way to learn?

I started a new hobby - reading. Or more like adjusted an old hobby, as I was already reading a lot; I simply switched the language from Finnish to English. I had to start up with a pocket size dictionary from where I had to check words regularly as I was clueless, but after half dozen books I could throw the dictionary away. I could figure out the rest accurately enough based on context and make a mental note of words I had to clarify later.

I started up 15 years ago, and I'm still reading at least one paperback book per month, in English language. I still learn new things every... week (I almost said every day but that's not quite true), I can write in various styles such as archaic English if needed (and not just in a way of "I thinketh thou stinkest"), et cetera. The biggest problem these days is that I'm quickly running out of good Duncan-Eddings-Feist-Stasheff style fantasy, and sometimes out of money as I have to order my books from abroad. I hate those delivery costs. :P

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Originally Posted by VoronturEU

I wonder how many would be able to do that who are non-native Finnish, or even Swedish speakers. I know I have little to no understanding of Finnish ;)

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If you mean how many non-native Finnish speakers would be able to write in Finnish with the same proficiency, answer is likely "very, very few". In some studies, Finnish language has been rated as the second most difficult language in the world to learn for a non-native person, largely due to our strange way of bending words and our overly long compound words. The only language that beats ours is apparently Mandarin Chinese. Go figure...

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Originally Posted by VoronturEU

But yes, the nature of the LOTRO forums now is that they are multi-cultural and multi-lingual, and not every non-native English speaker have the same levels of proficiency with English. It can't but make things a lot harder for the Moderation of these forums either.

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Back to topic: It definitely does make it harder. I have moderated a multi-cultural forum in the past and it was often really difficult due to varying style of writing. I found myself constantly guessing if the poster really meant exactly what he wrote or if he was looking for a different word, only because English wasn't his native language.

A few times I raised my eyebrows when another moderator wrote something I could have taken as a slight offence, but instantly knew it was a simple mistake. He was a fellow Finn, so I knew the exact word he was looking for and edited his post before it could wreak havoc. The problem is that there's sometimes five to ten English translations for one Finnish word, where each English word is used in somewhat different context. There are some cases where a poor choice of a single word can have very unexpected results...

I have occasionally noticed myself using completely wrong terms in such manner, even though I have regularly used Finnish-English online dictionaries or even Merriam-Webster's website to check some details if I've been unsure. I doubt many would bother with that; I wouldn't either, if I wasn't always willing and trying to learn more of the language.

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Originally Posted by t-town-colt

No but il spell it out for you. You can hurt someone physically,also emotionally. If someones disrespecting you, sure you can tell the devs, but unless they specifically did something against the rules, nothing is gonna happen. If you get them good they might actually shut up. Sure you might get in trouble, but if it fets someone off my back then its worth it.

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This approach will serve you very poorly here. Likely elsewhere as well.

Forum trolls >.<

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

The exquisitly simple cure for trolls: Be chilled, inject humour, care less.

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Originally Posted by Oldwiley

Forum trolls >.<

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

The exquisitly simple cure for trolls: Be chilled, inject humor, care less.

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brilliant ^_^

I have to agree to many pointing out, this thread is a little hippo. one needs to better themselves to raise above it and help other raise above it to help the community.

complaining about complaining seems a little weird. no wonder so many threads seem like doom and gloom. maybe we need a new sticky linking to some etiquette and community guidelines and (like someone suggested) more sub forums to help people direct there complains better and point out the bug report for the millionth time