To the Player Council, What are you all doing lately? Updates?

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Originally Posted by Jeffor

Either way, it just seems like a waste of resources to spend too much time worrying about multi-boxers. Some people like to play this way anywho. It's bee legit in all MMOs I've played so why vilify it now. Farming your own account for free, uncontested points is one thing but just playing more than one account is completely different.

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This, in a nutshell. Mutli-boxing isn't on the table. It's not a violation and that's pretty much the end of that portion of the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

This, in a nutshell. Mutli-boxing isn't on the table. It's not a violation and that's pretty much the end of that portion of the discussion.

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e. You may not develop, distribute or use any third party program designed to impact the Game experience, including without limitation software bots, cheats, hacks or any other software designed to provide a player with an advantage

Lots and lots of multiboxers break this.

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Originally Posted by Jeffor

Either way, it just seems like a waste of resources to spend too much time worrying about multi-boxers. Some people like to play this way anywho. It's bee legit in all MMOs I've played so why vilify it now. Farming your own account for free, uncontested points is one thing but just playing more than one account is completely different.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

This, in a nutshell. Mutli-boxing isn't on the table. It's not a violation and that's pretty much the end of that portion of the discussion.

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Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

e. You may not develop, distribute or use any third party program designed to impact the Game experience, including without limitation software bots, cheats, hacks or any other software designed to provide a player with an advantage

Lots and lots of multiboxers break this.

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Pretty much this ^^^

If someone can actually play multiple clients at once, all the power to them. I think its pretty safe to say 90% of the complaints lodged over multi-boxing comes over players who are using some form of third party software to control every account other than the 'head' everything else is following and mimicking, or the multiboxing is being used for farming oneself (which you have said you are looking into).

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Originally Posted by Sapience

This, in a nutshell. Mutli-boxing isn't on the table. It's not a violation and that's pretty much the end of that portion of the discussion.

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So it looks like its contact a GM and watch them say ermm nothing we can do sorry :/

Sounds like a plan stan :D

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Originally Posted by Sapience

This, in a nutshell. Mutli-boxing isn't on the table. It's not a violation and that's pretty much the end of that portion of the discussion.

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Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

e. You may not develop, distribute or use any third party program designed to impact the Game experience, including without limitation software bots, cheats, hacks or any other software designed to provide a player with an advantage

Lots and lots of multiboxers break this.

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i would say e) forbids multiboxing to control multiple chars at the exact same of time. Char A,B,C,D,E,F.... are doing the same thing at the same time thanks to a third party tool, which is in most cases happaning. You are getting a huge advantage thanks to the third party tool.

but true, i does not forbid multiple-client using, called multi-boxing by sapience. (So control Char A, while char B,C,D,E,F.... are not controlled at the same time, there are active but do not get any new commands)


that's correct or sapience?

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Originally Posted by spelunker

I think its pretty safe to say 90% of the complaints lodged over multi-boxing comes over players who are using some form of third party software to control every account other than the 'head' everything else is following and mimicking

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You don't need software for this, just a keyboard/video/monitor switch (hardware). After logging the accounts on to separate boxes, flip the switch so that your mouse/keyboard commands now go to all boxes. Every move and attack and click by one character will be done by all characters. They'll all accept the quest; they'll all kill the mob in a style that resembles synchronized swimming; and they'll all turn in the quest.

This wouldn't be a violation of the software rule quoted above. It might be a violation of some other rule, but I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Robeauch

You don't need software for this, just a keyboard/video/monitor switch (hardware). After logging the accounts on to separate boxes, flip the switch so that your mouse/keyboard commands now go to all boxes. Every move and attack and click by one character will be done by all characters. They'll all accept the quest; they'll all kill the mob in a style that resembles synchronized swimming; and they'll all turn in the quest.

This wouldn't be a violation of the software rule quoted above. It might be a violation of some other rule, but I don't think so.

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this is controlled by software in the background as well. (the softtware is on the hardware)

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Originally Posted by Milithion

i would say e) forbids multiboxing to control multiple chars at the exact same of time. Char A,B,C,D,E,F.... are doing the same thing at the same time thanks to a third party tool, which is in most cases happaning. You are getting a huge advantage thanks to the third party tool.

but true, i does not forbid multiple-client using, called multi-boxing by sapience. (So control Char A, while char B,C,D,E,F.... are not controlled at the same time, there are active but do not get any new commands)


that's correct or sapience?

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Originally Posted by Milithion

this is controlled by software in the background as well. (the softtware is on the hardware)

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By this logic using a keyboard and mouse breaks the rule because having control of your character does give you a huge advantage and those devices are controlled by software.

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Originally Posted by Milithion

this is controlled by software in the background as well. (the softtware is on the hardware)

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Every computer component is controlled by software in the background (drivers). That's not the software Turbine's rule refers to, or we wouldn't be allowed to use keyboards and mice at all.

I smell a potentially silly debate starting over this, so I'll just bow out at this point and say: If you genuinely believe a KVM switch violates Turbine's rules, I urge you to convince Turbine of that, as it's already clear enough to me.

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Originally Posted by Reximus

By this logic using a keyboard and mouse breaks the rule because having control of your character does give you a huge advantage and those devices are controlled by software.

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where does a normal keyboard/mouse give an advantage? especially an advantage to whom? to all how are playing lotro without both of them? - i want to see that?

and where is the different if the the third party software is installed on the pc or by default on special hardware?

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If you genuinely believe a KVM switch violates Turbine's rules, I urge you to convince Turbine of that, as it's already clear enough to me.

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sure its clear. turbine will first react if more and more people do that kind of cheating, and more and more (paying-)users are leaving the game cause to this issue. its a shame.

it would be so easy: "Simultaneously control of multiple chars is not allowed" <- Multi clienting would not violate this.

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Originally Posted by Milithion

where does a normal keyboard/mouse give an advantage? especially an advantage to whom? to all how are playing lotro without both of them? - i want to see that?

and where is the different if the the third party software is installed on the pc or by default on special hardware?

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He's halfway there.

Let's say you buy a 'gaming mouse' that allows you to customize keys on the mouse to mimic button presses on the Keyboard, or speed up or slow down mouse response or click faster. All of these things lend advantage becauase you can move your mouse faster, click faster, or without taking your hand off your mouse hit a hot key faster. All advantages. Assuming it's all done through software drivers, then that software could be construed to be advantage through software.

But to the actual point, LOTRO supports various hardware such as Logitech's G series of keyboards, mice, and gaming accessories. The software used to program and control these devices is not a violation. So much of the arguement is moot.

Again, this aspect of the discussion is done. If that's all you wish to discuss, then this thread doesn't have a very promising future.

i guess you get my point, so i have nothing more to say.

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Originally Posted by Milithion

what you are doing is using multiple accounts. that is not even close to multi-boxing, in the definition it is known to me.

multi-boxing (for me, and maybe lots of others) is the usage of multiple characters on multiple clients who are controlled by one person to preform identical actions at the exact same time.

eg: having 6 hunter on 6 clients controlled synchronously by one player. You will now see 6 hunters doing the exact same thing, using same skills, moving the same way etc. so one keydown will be the same skill at each of the 6 hunters. and that is cheating.

multi-boxing for me has nothing to do with having multiple clients open, where I only control one characters at the same time while the others do not get new commands while i control the one.

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Well said finally some one that sees the problem shame you are not a GM

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Originally Posted by Pinli_Epic_Guardian

Sapience, i think the solution to punishing rank farming is simple:

Don't take any "respect rating" from the community into consideration. (from the example that a respected player cheats on an alt)
If someone is reported of rank farming, with or without screenshots/videos attached. A GM should look into the player it's logs, which enemy he has been fighting etc, how much he earned by killing the account(s) associated with the rank farming. (Cheaters often delete the creep, then make a new one)

Always: Remove the cheated renown/infamy/kill/etc + 50% more renown/infamy (min. 0 renown/infamy)
First time: A 3 day ban for the main account + the accounts associated with the cheating.
Second time: A 7 day ban for the main account + the accounts associated with the cheating.
Third time: Perma ban for the main account + the accounts associated with the cheating.

2 chances are more then enough, 3rd you are out.

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LOL says one of the biggest Multi-boxers on laurelin. what was it tonight 6 BA's or 6 Spiders?

Turbine just needs to go ahead and bite the bullet on this and make a decision. Either declare rank farming as permissible (as they've done with multi-boxing, both software-driven and manually-controlled) or decide on a definition and publish it along with the associated penalties and appeals process. Setting on the fence only seems to be causing ill-will and pointless debates. Pointless because there's no policy to debate.

People will slam Turbine:
A. If there's no policy
B. If the policy is seen as too weak
C. If the policy is seen as too strong
D. If farming in all its form is deemed perfectly acceptable
(point E would have been if the policy is seen as exactly right, but no policy will ever be seen as such by all players)

In other words, whatever action Turbine takes here (including inaction), they'll get slammed, so they might as well go ahead and rip the bandage off so that people can move forward. And yes, I do consider the certain debates that will happen over whether or not the policy is fair to be a step forward.

It sounds like the Players Council has been debating this somewhat endlessly as well, probably with one or two people on the council supporting rank farming and blocking any decision process. Please make a decision and take this off the Player Council's plate so they can spend the time spent on this debate working on other things.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Again, this aspect of the discussion is done. If that's all you wish to discuss, then this thread doesn't have a very promising future.

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So please start to address the many responses to your non-hypothetical questions.

That should get us back on track.

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Originally Posted by Mystarr

I cannot for the life of me understand this position on multi-boxing in the moors. If I found some way to increase my burgs damage output by double, triple, or more of what is possible for any single burg it would be considered a game breaking exploit. I would consider it cheap if I used it in a PvE zone, but in a PvMP zone I wouldn't just be killing NPCS... I'd be killing other players with this advantage!!!! That's not just "unsportsmanlike" its HUGELY umbalancing and has a direct negative impact on other players/customers. I would fully expect to get banned for it.

I don't have a problem with multi-boxing outside of the moors but when players multi-box in the moors it SERIOUSLY unbalances PvMP. We have a 5 boxing BA/hunter on our server. He can kill most players he targets before they even realize he has targeted them. If you attack him he can automatically disperse the BAs/hunters in a circular pattern while he continues to focus 5 times normal dps on whomever he chooses. If you kill the "main" head he can seamlessly switch control of all of the toons to another toon. In solo-play there is nothing you can do. Even in small group or raid vs raid play adding 5 BAs/hunters with flawless focus fire to one side turns a night of even back and forth fighting into night of total wipes and logging out.

Some people argue: "Its okay just get more people to fight him." Getting more people is not always that easy. In fact getting numbers on both sides reasonably balanced is one of the hardest things to do in the moors. Moreover, you can use this argument to justify all kinds of exploits. Somebody is stacking skirmish buffs so they take almost no damage... "Thats okay just get more people to kill them". Somebody is stacking legacies..."That's okay just get more people to kill them". This argument just doesn't hold up.

Some people argue: "If he pays for 5 accounts its okay. You will get 5 times the renown if you kill him." If you agree with this justification then why not add a store option so anyone can pay to multiply their dps x 5 ? I think this would have a negative effect on game play so its not likely to happen, BUT why in the world does turbine allow multi-boxing in the moors? I realize its NOT exactly the same thing, but it's frigthenly close.

I seriously do not understand how this can be considered anything besides a game breaking exploit. Can you please help me understand the reasoning Sapience?

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Sorry... but, if that is what you call an "exploit" then apparently you don't use the same dictionary.

Again, if you people who are crying about the multi-boxing and/or rank farming want to get anywhere... you need to put your emotions aside and look at it from a more practical angle. Until you can do so, (IMHO) all your crying and whining comes across as... "Mommy, it's not fair..." And, frankly, fairness is not the best argument in this case.

Now, if you would take my advice and discuss with Turbine a change to the underlying system (which currently supports and [I'd argue] promotes the actions you disapprove of...), that would be the best solution that is actually fair to all.

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Originally Posted by Milithion

where does a normal keyboard/mouse give an advantage? especially an advantage to whom? to all how are playing lotro without both of them? - i want to see that?

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You said using a Keyboard/Mouse to control multiple characters gives an unfair advantage. Its the same signal and same keypress being sent to multiple LOTRO clients that would also be sent to a single client.

If sending a keyboard/mouse signal to multiple clients is an unfair advantage, then sending it to one is an unfair advantage.

It be nice if you could make up your mind, is using a keyboard and/or mouse cheating or isn't it? Or is it only cheating when YOU think it should be cheating?

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Originally Posted by Runesi_EU

Don't see the problem here to be honest, if someone multiboxes an instance to get the loot then fair play to them

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It's a cultural thing. In PvP there's a notion of "fairness" for some reason. However at the very same time they are role playing a war, and in war there are no rules at all, everything is fair and you win or prevent loss at any cost. It's sort of a disconnect... So really PvP people sort of want a sport instead of a war, they want balanced teams, referees, score boards, leaderboards, whatever. Ie, there used to be a lot of people complaining a long time that "desperate flight" was unfair, whereas if I were a freep instead of creep I'd think that it was perfectly legitimate way to avoid defeat (nothing in Geneva convention says that I have to stand there and take it).

On the other hand, there are many PVP players who do not want fair sports. If they find a noob in the moors then that noob is endlessly farmed until the noob gives up and goes back to PVE. The scariest part of playing there sometimes is getting from the starting areas out to where the raid is. Trying to even earn a simple map is hard if a powerful freep is parked in the hobbit town just waiting for someone to wander by (they know the noobs have to go there eventually). Not fair, but it's very typical in most games I've see with PvP that's more than just an arena.

So in one sense, am I cheating by being stupid and letting this person farm me over and over when I try to earn my map, rather than logging out? For everything I think can be claimed to be cheating, there are also legitimate reasons for that sort of activity (ie, I want to spar with a friend, and I'm better than my friend, so I win 9 times out of 10 for example).

On the other hand, in PvE it doesn't matter. There is zero competition. No one loses if someone else gets all their gold gear in 5 minutes. I think most players won't mind, they'll be interested to know how they can get in on the action maybe. Though there are smaller camps who dislike that thing intensely (the "fair" PvPers, plus the "only great people should have great gear" types).

Anyway, just trying to point out that there are many different viewpoints into the game. Not everyone feels the same way about stuff. What's unfair to one player is legitimate to another, others don't care if the person next to them cheats, some want referees and some don't care, and so forth. You just have to understand where they're coming from instead of thinking that everyone who is logical must also agree with you. Even in the smaller context of PvMP there are many different styles and viewpoints.

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Define it - Farming is intentionally accelerating the ranking process by killing a member of the opposite faction who is complicit in helping you accomplish your goal.

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Those fight clubbers are dirty rank-farmers--"meet me at X location" to fight--Ban those dirty rank-farmers.


On another matter, This was my experience tonight. I was leveling my hunter and a kinnie hopped in my vent channel and asked me to come to the Moors because they needed heals. I switched to my RK and joined them. We had 6 players all from kin. We fight for like 30 minutes. After awhile it got boring because TR one-shotters were bugged fighting each other and constantly kept us in combat even after relogging (and we mopped the floor with the craid). About 10 minutes later creeps flipped to call me an exploiter, cheater, and gear-swapping cheater to lag them out and hinder their dps. I had a great laugh from it all. This person kept saying he had a SS & fraps showing me swap my armor set over n over n over. I told him I literally didn't change 1 piece of armor the whole time I was out there. The only gear swapping I did was my RK LIs between healing/dps and on occassion my chisel/riffler. He insisted I was lying and I macro'd to swap full armor sets, etc. Sadly, many of the "highly respected" creeps also believe said person.

I had a great laugh from it all. I've never macro'd in the 5-6 years I've played lotro yet it is magically showed in a SS or fraps. Epic stuff.

I personally don't think Turbine should ban rank-farmers simply because players let their emotions get the best of them. The false accusations just to get someone banned you don't like will start flying left n right.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

It's a cultural thing. In PvP there's a notion of "fairness" for some reason. However at the very same time they are role playing a war, and in war there are no rules at all, everything is fair and you win or prevent loss at any cost. It's sort of a disconnect... So really PvP people sort of want a sport instead of a war, they want balanced teams, referees, score boards, leaderboards, whatever. Ie, there used to be a lot of people complaining a long time that "desperate flight" was unfair, whereas if I were a freep instead of creep I'd think that it was perfectly legitimate way to avoid defeat (nothing in Geneva convention says that I have to stand there and take it).

On the other hand, there are many PVP players who do not want fair sports. If they find a noob in the moors then that noob is endlessly farmed until the noob gives up and goes back to PVE. The scariest part of playing there sometimes is getting from the starting areas out to where the raid is. Trying to even earn a simple map is hard if a powerful freep is parked in the hobbit town just waiting for someone to wander by (they know the noobs have to go there eventually). Not fair, but it's very typical in most games I've see with PvP that's more than just an arena.

So in one sense, am I cheating by being stupid and letting this person farm me over and over when I try to earn my map, rather than logging out? For everything I think can be claimed to be cheating, there are also legitimate reasons for that sort of activity (ie, I want to spar with a friend, and I'm better than my friend, so I win 9 times out of 10 for example).

On the other hand, in PvE it doesn't matter. There is zero competition. No one loses if someone else gets all their gold gear in 5 minutes. I think most players won't mind, they'll be interested to know how they can get in on the action maybe. Though there are smaller camps who dislike that thing intensely (the "fair" PvPers, plus the "only great people should have great gear" types).

Anyway, just trying to point out that there are many different viewpoints into the game. Not everyone feels the same way about stuff. What's unfair to one player is legitimate to another, others don't care if the person next to them cheats, some want referees and some don't care, and so forth. You just have to understand where they're coming from instead of thinking that everyone who is logical must also agree with you. Even in the smaller context of PvMP there are many different styles and viewpoints.

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First rule of PVP.

Everything i do is fair, everything the others do is unfair, even if they just do what i do.

As with everything in life i wouldn't be too surprised if some of the loudest foul criers to rank farming and multiboxing are doing it themselves.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

He's halfway there.

Let's say you buy a 'gaming mouse' that allows you to customize keys on the mouse to mimic button presses on the Keyboard, or speed up or slow down mouse response or click faster. All of these things lend advantage becauase you can move your mouse faster, click faster, or without taking your hand off your mouse hit a hot key faster. All advantages. Assuming it's all done through software drivers, then that software could be construed to be advantage through software.

But to the actual point, LOTRO supports various hardware such as Logitech's G series of keyboards, mice, and gaming accessories. The software used to program and control these devices is not a violation. So much of the arguement is moot.

Again, this aspect of the discussion is done. If that's all you wish to discuss, then this thread doesn't have a very promising future.

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I'm a bit confused with this, so if i set up a macro with my G to make my 5 Icon warden combo in a button click that's ok ?
Or does that just mean the special features of the software are ok as long as i don't write my own macro with it ?

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Originally Posted by Reximus

You said using a Keyboard/Mouse to control multiple characters gives an unfair advantage. Its the same signal and same keypress being sent to multiple LOTRO clients that would also be sent to a single client.

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Sending one keypress to more than one client at the same time requires third party software, which is against the rules.

here's a few idea's I want to throw at the wall and see if they stick...

Reaver also needs to be unlocked with real money
cut a bunch of people doing it there. even a £5 cost they probably would give up. there are people on other games who cheat for pennies, they really won't pay that amount to cheat a little then.

Cooldown on deleting character
this isn't just a PvP idea, it might stop potentiol mistakes. sticking a 1 week cooldown on deleting a creep would really slow down the ability to rank farm as it's much higher making multiple accounts (which you could track easier I think) than keep on deleteing and remaking a R0 reaver to munch on. let the rating system do the rest.

R0 don't drop renown/infarmy
500 renown or infarmy... seriously, there farmed enough, putting no renown on them would help those noobies alot too :(

Update the rating system
currectly not doing enough imo. you should be able to go down to 0 rating pretty quick to stop peopleing from farming even in normal play, but give players much more renown/infarmy on kills of people who have a higher rating.

More public information
let people see other people's kill feed. those doing it "hiddenly" should be rooted out and shown there true colours. it's kinda obvious if there kill feeds stuck with 50 x FCISFUN then 50 x LOLWUTNOOB. and I'm not jokeing with names like that...

make PvP items exclusive to PvP
a form has sprung up recently with FC'ers doing it just for PvP items to PvE with. why are PvP items better than PvE at PvE? how does that even make sense? can't you restrict them or something? make PvP it's own thing please, and that would promote more "sportsmanship"

so are any sticking?

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

here's a few idea's I want to throw at the wall and see if they stick...

Reaver also needs to be unlocked with real money
cut a bunch of people doing it there. even a £5 cost they probably would give up. there are people on other games who cheat for pennies, they really won't pay that amount to cheat a little then.

Cooldown on deleting character
this isn't just a PvP idea, it might stop potentiol mistakes. sticking a 1 week cooldown on deleting a creep would really slow down the ability to rank farm as it's much higher making multiple accounts (which you could track easier I think) than keep on deleteing and remaking a R0 reaver to munch on. let the rating system do the rest.

R0 don't drop renown/infarmy
500 renown or infarmy... seriously, there farmed enough, putting no renown on them would help those noobies alot too :(

Update the rating system
currectly not doing enough imo. you should be able to go down to 0 rating pretty quick to stop peopleing from farming even in normal play, but give players much more renown/infarmy on kills of people who have a higher rating.

More public information
let people see other people's kill feed. those doing it "hiddenly" should be rooted out and shown there true colours. it's kinda obvious if there kill feeds stuck with 50 x FCISFUN then 50 x LOLWUTNOOB. and I'm not jokeing with names like that...

make PvP items exclusive to PvP
a form has sprung up recently with FC'ers doing it just for PvP items to PvE with. why are PvP items better than PvE at PvE? how does that even make sense? can't you restrict them or something? make PvP it's own thing please, and that would promote more "sportsmanship"

so are any sticking?

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Very nice post and straight to the point +1 for the ideas there all actually very well thought out.

While i cannot see Reavers being non free in the future, the fact R0 dropping zero renown would be a nice addition to all who play or wish to play creep, but it would be better if it went to r3 maybe? or the clubber would just club his freep a few ranks.

The cooldown on the deletion however is an excellent idea.