Sapience, cards can be held too closely to the vest.

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Seems to me a good way to tick off the playerbase.

The whole 'NDA' thing is an absolute joke. I'm not in beta. And I can freely say that I'm NOT in beta. But if someone WAS in beta, simply mentioning they were, or honestly seeking to get help with something, is license to boot them from said beta. Yea, that'll win you brownie points.

You want to kick someone from the beta for violating the ridiculous NDA... fine, that's your perogative. But don't go all public with it and rub their faces in the mud here on the forum. Have more grace and tact than that. You know all those new forum guidlines where violations to the terms of service for doing XYZ to PDQ? I'm thinking you folks shouldn't be immune to the rules here either. Practice what ye preach.

I'm thinking ye folks at Turbine take some things way too seriously, and things that ye should take seriously, nowhere near serious enough.

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I don't know how much simpler the rules for the NDA can get. I believe anyone who gets a beta invite email is told not to discuss that there in beta or ask questions outside of the beta forum. How hard is it to follow those rules??? Now if I was in beta & had a problem like the person above had, gee where should I go for help, surely asking in the public forum is not too bright idea. I'm sorry but I don't feel for anyone who posts about being in beta or having problems with it in public. Many others don't do this so it cannot be that difficult to follow & it doesn't take a genius to figure out where to go for help if you have problems.

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Originally Posted by Eartholloth

I don't know how much simpler the rules for the NDA can get. I believe anyone who gets a beta invite email is told not to discuss that there in beta or ask questions outside of the beta forum.

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This may indeed be the case. It's not an issue of whether or not the NDA was violated. It's how it was PUBLICLY handled. At the very least, the fellow could have been messaged with some helpful instruction and the offending post removed. But that would have been customer service oriented. ;)

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Originally Posted by commodore1

We all know that mistakes found in beta are hardly ever fixed, even when found early. Most bugs are released because it cost money to fix them or the code wont work otherwise or some other lame excuse. Some people have stopped requesting quality work from this company which is why there are so many negative threads in the forums these days. All it takes is for the player base to start demanding quality work again.<---- see the word again? at one point they were putting out quality work then it slowly diminished to where every expansion people cringe when thinking of how bad this can possibly get. I'm not looking forward to this expansion at all, it reeks of desperation. Something to play for two weeks until they feel the need to nerf something, or until something in a quest line barfs all over the place and progression will be stop while the try to locate the problem that was found the first couple of days in beta. wait until it goes on sale, by then those problems will have a chance of working.

Draigoch anyone? still haven't had a session there that hasn't bugged out! Log in problems keeping you from logging in? never mind that try the umpteen fixes that don't help. You say you cant speak to a NPC to continue the quest line? no worries, did you pay for the fix? Look in the store. Skill trees destroy your character or your concept. never mind that learn to play it all over again.

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So: then tell me: did you ever worked on any programming? Or seen how long the programming text is? And do you know that even a missing "{" or one too much could cause the bug about which you're complaining and what a mass of work is it to find a problem? It's like finding a needle in a haystack. So there are propably tools which help you to find the origin of the error, but it's still complicated....

And 3goch works when I was there - it was bugged in the nearly past at most only one time; and I have read about some 3goch-patch with 11.3.:

Raids

Draigoch isn't always willing to take a punch. We've explained to him that his lot in life is to be beat upon by players and he should really just Dragon Up and take it.


Why do you think Skill trees destroy your character or concept? You didn't have the possibility to test it - except you have a beta key... (and speaking about it could be a violation ^^)

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Seems to me a good way to tick off the playerbase.

The whole 'NDA' thing is an absolute joke. I'm not in beta. And I can freely say that I'm NOT in beta. But if someone WAS in beta, simply mentioning they were, or honestly seeking to get help with something, is license to boot them from said beta. Yea, that'll win you brownie points.

You want to kick someone from the beta for violating the ridiculous NDA... fine, that's your perogative. But don't go all public with it and rub their faces in the mud here on the forum. Have more grace and tact than that. You know all those new forum guidlines where violations to the terms of service for doing XYZ to PDQ? I'm thinking you folks shouldn't be immune to the rules here either. Practice what ye preach.

I'm thinking ye folks at Turbine take some things way too seriously, and things that ye should take seriously, nowhere near serious enough.

Honestly, I think that kind of public response lacked tact, and was extremly out of line. Since it was a public smacking, it deserves a public apology. Yes, this means YOU, Sapience.

After 15 hours of effort on the part of the customer (yes, CUSTOMER), to test YOUR software for you free of charge, he is then very publicly informed that he won't have to worry about it anymore due to the NDA violation for talking about Fight Clu... err... Beta..

You either recognize where you were in the wrong, or you don't. And if you don't, then that's a large part of the problem.

Honestly, if you worked for my company, (or any I've every worked for) you'd have a 'talking to' at minimum for treating customers like that. These people pay your salary. Never, ever, forget that.

I've participated in many, many, betas in my time. Including the one for Riders of Rohan. Never again.

I don't know why people line up to be hamsters and act like it's a gift from the gods to go out of their way to test some company's shoddy, buggy pre-release software. :P

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It's a deal with advantages for both sides: Turbine get the possibilty of free testing so it doesn't cost any more money than the maintaining of the servers, but these they have with or without the testserver... and the players get the possibilty to take an insight look on the new expansion and to get familiar with some changes...

So what's wrong with you: It IS a POSSIBILTY which Turbine give the players. Turbine would have other possibilities to get their part of the deal, it could cost something but they have other possibilities. If you're a player you DON'T have any other possibility - except you get a job there...

And when you're talking about the beta although you have a signed NDA it is against the rules of the NDA and therefore you DID abuse a privilege you got from Turbine. So there isn't any joke about this. A participation is a secret and if you couldn't even keep this secret how it should be with the secret information you get testing beta?

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Seems to me a good way to tick off the playerbase.

The whole 'NDA' thing is an absolute joke.

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What part of "NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT" do you not understand? It means that you are agreeing not to talk about anything until you are given the green light to do so.

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I don't know why people line up to be hamsters and act like it's a gift from the gods to go out of their way to test some company's shoddy, buggy pre-release software.

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Then, I am guessing you are not someone who understands the importance of Beta testing. The whole point is to go test it and help catch bugs before the final product hits the shelves.

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

For larger instances, sure. But the smaller ones? The only exciting fights are the boss fights.

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I liked Foundry. It felt the right size for me. Not a stupidly short thing like Sambrog where any strategy works at all. And if you're a PUG it's not stupidly easy either and there's a definite possibility of not succeeding on first try.

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Originally Posted by Crell_1

I would advise anyone involved in the beta to KEEP IT IN THE BETA FORUM, so you don't lose your access.

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I think they need separate beta forums, different URL, maybe different forum accounts.
I had the problem in a past beta where I honestly though I was posting only in bullroarer forums but was actually posting something secret to the world. Same player names in the live thread as were in the beta threads, same background color, same look, and vaguely the same topic. One of my few demerits :-(

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

But if someone WAS in beta, simply mentioning they were, or honestly seeking to get help with something, is license to boot them from said beta. Yea, that'll win you brownie points.

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There's a very good reason for it. Too many players take being in beta as some sort of prize or reward (it's supposed to be about hard work). So players would get the invite and then immediately brag about it. You see this in some other games a lot. By putting in the NDA it reduces a lot of that attitude.

Another good reason is that once you know someone is in beta they get a lot of questions and pressure from other players to spill the beans.

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Since it was a public smacking, it deserves a public apology. Yes, this means YOU, Sapience.

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The violation seemed like it came from a new account so I doubt anyone here would connect that name to an actual player or to the real forum account. It was a public shaming of an alias. (or not, I don't have sigs on to see if it was advertising character names like some people do)

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Seems to me a good way to tick off the playerbase.

The whole 'NDA' thing is an absolute joke. I'm not in beta. And I can freely say that I'm NOT in beta. But if someone WAS in beta, simply mentioning they were, or honestly seeking to get help with something, is license to boot them from said beta. Yea, that'll win you brownie points.

You want to kick someone from the beta for violating the ridiculous NDA... fine, that's your perogative. But don't go all public with it and rub their faces in the mud here on the forum. Have more grace and tact than that. You know all those new forum guidlines where violations to the terms of service for doing XYZ to PDQ? I'm thinking you folks shouldn't be immune to the rules here either. Practice what ye preach.

I'm thinking ye folks at Turbine take some things way too seriously, and things that ye should take seriously, nowhere near serious enough.

Honestly, I think that kind of public response lacked tact, and was extremly out of line. Since it was a public smacking, it deserves a public apology. Yes, this means YOU, Sapience.

After 15 hours of effort on the part of the customer (yes, CUSTOMER), to test YOUR software for you free of charge, he is then very publicly informed that he won't have to worry about it anymore due to the NDA violation for talking about Fight Clu... err... Beta..

You either recognize where you were in the wrong, or you don't. And if you don't, then that's a large part of the problem.

Honestly, if you worked for my company, (or any I've every worked for) you'd have a 'talking to' at minimum for treating customers like that. These people pay your salary. Never, ever, forget that.

I've participated in many, many, betas in my time. Including the one for Riders of Rohan. Never again.

I don't know why people line up to be hamsters and act like it's a gift from the gods to go out of their way to test some company's shoddy, buggy pre-release software. :P

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You realize that, if there wasn't a beta for the players at all, we would probably have a lot more bugs AND some people might be complaining that there isn't a beta. You can't satisfy everyone at once.

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Originally Posted by EyeSlayer600

You realize that, if there wasn't a beta for the players at all, we would probably have a lot more bugs AND some people might be complaining that there isn't a beta. You can't satisfy everyone at once.

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The trouble of it is, that the bugs are found. Yet was there never a beta for players all we'd lose are the players running on and on for months and years after each release about the bugs they found during beta, reported, and never had mended. That seems the way of it to me. And yes, I never see it why Turbine bothers and then doesn't bother. It's as though they're seeking a rubber stamp from the invitees.

'Oh glorious day! Oh grand and lovely fortunate me! I'm in beta! Beta!'

So much weight heaped on such a stupid, hollow, little word. Turbine knows this, knows how venal and greedy we are as players for any sort of bragging rights. But it isn't Turbine alone. That's gamer culture for you. Player betas come so damnably late, that from what we've seen time and again, whatever shows in beta is bound for showing after launch. How much of this is a holdover from the days of going gold, the need for pressing CDs to meet a launch window? In this age of downloading clients only I have to wonder what's keeping them from mending those bugs- even last minute. Or why couldn't they hold off launching?

Should it come any worse than the times they've halted the service of late? In a day when so many players have pre-ordered what does a launch or release date even mean? What sort of ceremony is there? Clicking a mouse? Flipping a switch? What are the players going to do if launch doesn't come?

File another bloody online petition? Give another restaurant -my steak wasn't done up proper- analogy? Whinge about it on facebook and twitter? Run a conga line from Bree to Eastern Rohan, pissing, moaning, and flagellating themselves whilst wearing hair shirts? Or should they gorge themselves with full English breakfasts, then ice cream and crisps, and then elevenses til they're in diabetic comas, singing -blubbering through their sticky ice cream tears- all the while -"The road goes ever on?"

Nothing comes of it- no matter what it is, so why not let's be honest to players in turn?

When players come on saying "Why aren't the instances come on time? Why are the warsteeds faulty? When will the servers be running? When are you having rid of the terrible lag? Why are you cutting back on bounders coins and why are the festivals asking for money now for extra plays?" Take this path for customer service:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZrgxHvNNUc

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Originally Posted by Orodbril

So: then tell me: did you ever worked on any programming? Or seen how long the programming text is? And do you know that even a missing "{" or one too much could cause the bug about which you're complaining and what a mass of work is it to find a problem? It's like finding a needle in a haystack. So there are propably tools which help you to find the origin of the error, but it's still complicated....

And 3goch works when I was there - it was bugged in the nearly past at most only one time; and I have read about some 3goch-patch with 11.3.:

Raids

Draigoch isn't always willing to take a punch. We've explained to him that his lot in life is to be beat upon by players and he should really just Dragon Up and take it.


Why do you think Skill trees destroy your character or concept? You didn't have the possibility to test it - except you have a beta key... (and speaking about it could be a violation ^^)

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A missing "{" would cause a compiler error and would be fixed in seconds - you wouldn't even be able to get the program to run.

Something like Draigoch is a hard to find logic error.

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Originally Posted by TheNightAngel

A missing "{" would cause a compiler error and would be fixed in seconds - you wouldn't even be able to get the program to run.

Something like Draigoch is a hard to find logic error.

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Yeah, right. When there's such an error the frame/structure of the whole text doesn't work. It was just an example. ;)

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Originally Posted by TheCrossbow

Then, I am guessing you are not someone who understands the importance of Beta testing. The whole point is to go test it and help catch bugs before the final product hits the shelves.

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"Having a private beta with an NDA" usually equals to "We are too cheap to hire professional testers".

Regardless, the tone [attitude] shown by Sapience toward that guy (a customer, the kind of people who keep Turbine in business), who wanted to help Turbine with the beta but couldn't, is puzzling.
Was high-handedness mentioned in that job description ? If I were to talk to a customer like that, a written warning would be the mostly likely outcome.
Oh well, life must be nice as a CM.

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Originally Posted by Svella

"Having a private beta with an NDA" usually equals to "We are too cheap to hire professional testers".

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They do have 'em but considering their office likely uses the same PC configurations and that they have a limited number of employees with different configuration on their home PCs they're not likely to catch too many bugs related to system compatibility. Plus, devs aren't very likely to break their own quest chains for the same reason authors get someone to proofread their works. They're attached to the work, they only see it one way, so they need an outside perspective to fix it.

Of course, I can't say anything about how many bugs tend to stay from beta to live, that's kinda stupid. Some are understandable (I'm not sure anyone broke the last quest chain in Great River until it hit live) but some aren't (Draigoch is a big one here).

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Originally Posted by TheCrossbow

What part of "NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT" do you not understand? It means that you are agreeing not to talk about anything until you are given the green light to do so.

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Don't be cutesy and offensive. I know what a non disclosure agreement is. Some folks who get invited to beta don't even know what one is. Not everyone is digital savvy. Many folks, including some older folks, play this game who could be considered very non-technical in nature. If they get some beta invite, they'll likely just click on it.

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Originally Posted by TheCrossbow

Then, I am guessing you are not someone who understands the importance of Beta testing. The whole point is to go test it and help catch bugs before the final product hits the shelves.

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Sure I understand the importance of beta testing. In case ye missed it, I said I've been involved in many betas, and I'm no longer going to do so. I know what QA is. Heck, I used to run a QA dept. I'll let other folks give their time and effort to test someone else's shoddy software for free. You aren't some honoured and privileged caste. Yer the test group, bub. Glorified hamsters testing out the new wheel to see if it breaks.

As they say in the medical field, "Never be part of the 'test group'' :P

Besides, you wanna guess at how many bugs from RoI and RoR made it into the LIVE release even AFTER pointed out, by we the testers? Now, I didn't personally test RoI, (Only RoR) but the list given by those who did was immense. The bugs were found, identified, and then STILL released as-is. Think Draigoch, for an example.

I saw this and laughed so hard I almost ruptured something...

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i.../i-cMtjd5n.jpg

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

They do have 'em ...

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Sure ? The last patch a) broke a few things in mounted combat and b) introduced an event with a victory condition that breaks its own deed advancement.
I wouldn't dare to call that "professional" nor "testing".

And @Sapience, how about some more info about Helms Deep, like pre-order info ? We could also use some info about the reverted drop rate for Bounder Token Bags and when you're going to fix the mounted combat.

This is the 3rd sentence from the beta invite.

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Let's keep this between us... Your participation in the Closed Beta is governed by your acceptance of the Preview and Non-Disclosure Agreement. Please limit your feedback to the LOTRO Beta Forums and email surveys (details below.)

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It links to the NDA, and there are links to other resources as well. Not overly technical, not requiring any special knowledge to understand.

Beta is voluntary. It's not a draft. If you don't want to be in beta all you need do is throw away the email or send us a note (as some have don) saying you aren't interested or able and we'll happily remove you.

As for companies using betas to test software. I can't think of any that don't. In any field. Going back to my days in IT, however, I can think of quite a few that actually require customers and third party developers to pay (through various means. Including "upgraded" support packages - which are also not free with the purchase of their software) to be included in beta programs.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

This is the 3rd sentence from the beta invite.

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Sapience is in the beta! Breach of NDA! Revoke his beta invite!

A NDA has nothing to do specifically with games (although it is probably what many here are most familiar with one from); there are likely many here who have had to sign one at their place of employment. So just acting like those who aren't tech-savvy would have no knowledge of what it means is not correct, per se.

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Originally Posted by MotorZ0

A NDA has nothing to do specifically with games (although it is probably what many here are most familiar with one from); there are likely many here who have had to sign one at their place of employment. So just acting like those who aren't tech-savvy would have no knowledge of what it means is not correct, per se.

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But just as likely there are many who may not have had to. I personally have had to sign several, but it's incredibly rare for a person my age (19 at the time) to have employment at a place that would require any sort of NDA. More often than not that's entry level jobs at best, or part-time jobs or college jobs at worst.

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Originally Posted by MotorZ0

A NDA has nothing to do specifically with games (although it is probably what many here are most familiar with one from); there are likely many here who have had to sign one at their place of employment. So just acting like those who aren't tech-savvy would have no knowledge of what it means is not correct, per se.

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Correct. My step-daughter, who is most decidedly not tech savvy, signed an NDA for her employment. Everyone who works in this building, from the guy who runs the show down to the cleaning crew that comes in at night are all under NDA. It's a very common thing and age, tech ability, and type of work you do rarely has anything to do with understanding them.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

I think they need separate beta forums, different URL, maybe different forum accounts.
I had the problem in a past beta where I honestly though I was posting only in bullroarer forums but was actually posting something secret to the world. Same player names in the live thread as were in the beta threads, same background color, same look, and vaguely the same topic. One of my few demerits :-(

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That won't help, I'm afraid. Almost invariably the unintended NDA violations posted in these forums are because people simply came here and saw a forum called "Helm's Deep". As long as there is a forum about the announced forthcoming expansion, there will always be people who just don't look around them. If you look at the post count of the accidental violators, they are usually very low, showing that they are just not forum-savvy.

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Don't be cutesy and offensive. I know what a non disclosure agreement is. Some folks who get invited to beta don't even know what one is. Not everyone is digital savvy. Many folks, including some older folks, play this game who could be considered very non-technical in nature. If they get some beta invite, they'll likely just click on it.

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Well, you managed to do quite well adding in several personal mud slings all in short work. You don't have to be "digital savvy" to be able to pick up on when something is not working quite right. I would think most people are smart enough to know when something goes wrong with their TV even though they don't know how to fix it.

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Sure I understand the importance of beta testing. In case ye missed it, I said I've been involved in many betas, and I'm no longer going to do so. I know what QA is. Heck, I used to run a QA dept. I'll let other folks give their time and effort to test someone else's shoddy software for free. You aren't some honoured and privileged caste. Yer the test group, bub. Glorified hamsters testing out the new wheel to see if it breaks.

As they say in the medical field, "Never be part of the 'test group'' :P

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Based on what you've said here, I am not sure you understand how important "beta testers" are in the whole scheme of things. Without "beta testing" you are missing out on a key step. Let me give you an example...

Several years ago, I had the opportunity to get in with a new business when they were opening their doors for the first time in town - a restaurant. Before opening day, the management made plans for us to have a few evenings for us to put our training to use. They essentially sent out special invitations for a variety of people to come be customers. In essence, these people provided us with a way to test our skills before the restaurant officially opened. It was a good opportunity for the management to see where we needed extra help and ensure that the employees would be able to handle the kinds of customers that we would encounter after opening day.

Then, to use your example of the medical field... having testing groups is vitally important to the medical field. They must be able to determine if (say) a new medication will be as effective "as advertised." Additionally, they must be able to identify any problems (side effects) with the medication to properly write up an adequate "disclaimer" or they risk hefty lawsuits.

Therefore, to dismiss "beta testing" as nothing more than being glorified lab rats is to tell me that you do not, in fact, understand how important it is. Yes, you are lab rats, but lab rats are vital to almost every business.

As Sapience said, being part of the beta testing is entirely voluntary. They send out the invitation and you can tell them "no".

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Seems to me a good way to tick off the playerbase.

The whole 'NDA' thing is an absolute joke. I'm not in beta. And I can freely say that I'm NOT in beta. But if someone WAS in beta, simply mentioning they were, or honestly seeking to get help with something, is license to boot them from said beta. Yea, that'll win you brownie points.

You want to kick someone from the beta for violating the ridiculous NDA... fine, that's your perogative. But don't go all public with it and rub their faces in the mud here on the forum. Have more grace and tact than that. You know all those new forum guidlines where violations to the terms of service for doing XYZ to PDQ? I'm thinking you folks shouldn't be immune to the rules here either. Practice what ye preach.

....

Honestly, if you worked for my company, (or any I've every worked for) you'd have a 'talking to' at minimum for treating customers like that. These people pay your salary. Never, ever, forget that.
....

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The reason why it's publicized that players are booted from betas is to serve as a warning to others in the beta not to talk about it outside of pre-approved beta forums.

Your trolling about "worked for my company" gave me a good laugh though. If any company didn't take its NDA (and all other contractual agreements) seriously, it's not worth working for or doing business with. You clearly have no idea how important contractual agreements are when there's millions of dollars at stake. You clearly have no idea that when you give your word (written or verbal), how important it is to live up to it and be responsible. I pity anyone you work for or do business with if keeping your word and written contracts mean so little to you.

People who violate the NDA and get kicked out of the beta test are lucky if that's all that happens. There are far more painful sanctions Turbine could pursue and they would be within their legal rights for doing so.