Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Warden

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Originally Posted by MeLoWaR

no more leech and kite.
you will guardian the mobs.




for clearification in turbine's lore tanking is guarding.
and a tank is just guardian

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Totally right.

Warden had a very unique way of keeping aggro from unlimited mobs = threat leeches. The only source of threat will come by the hand of DPSing, which means a lot of resists and attacks BPEd. We are going to have to tank like Guardians in ROR (they have had some awesome changes, by the way, all in the good direction to make them better tanks in AoE and ST), only we have way less resources for that: 0 forced taunts, 0 pure threat options, 0 ranged threat match-up - they will have a great range of all that.
If a group of mobs go to a DPSer, you will have two options:
-DPS with lifetaps on them from range (good luck with the light dmg not being resisted) which, resisted or not, will take some time to get them back.
-Run like a chicken to melee range (if you can, certain bosses wont allow you to) and throw a DC (if it's not on cd) hoping there are not more than 5 targets (on Beta 6 threat match-up only affected 5 random mobs around you) and run back to your position.

Our only threat match-up skill, DC, needs you to be very close to the target to be effective. And you better don't have more than 5 mobs around you otherwise it might not even work on the mobs you wanted to be effective. This is by far the most uncontrolled and limited AoE threat I've ever seen. Just the mobs spawning at BoD 1st boss are a nightmare to grab, and by the time you get to generate enough aggro on them the healer or squishy DPSer will probably be dead anyways.

There are these things that players in beta asked for a million times:

-longer buff durations
-get more threat match-up option other than DC, non damaging ranged AoE threat gambit (Resounding Challenge?) and ranged ST (Wages of Fear?).

If they increased a bit buff durations and implement, for example, threat match-up/increased threat to Resounding Challenge and Wages of Fear, I'd say the class would be back to life. Not finished at all - there's a lot of things that need to be polished, there are a lot of things wardens are missing like a decent Blue Capstone Trait and Skill that is just horrible - but hey, that would at least be the bare minimum to let the class go Live until the other changes come.

Regarding threat-leeches: another really important thing that they took away with threat leeches is our ability to tank unlimited number of mobs. Now we are limited to 10 targets (lifetaps), while other tanks are limited to 13, for example. Funny for a premium AoE tank. We have no control at all on more than 10 mobs, since we can't control who does our lifetaps affect.

I really hope to see some of the most important changes players asked for weeks in Beta are implemented on monday, otherwise I'll have to level up a Guardian if I want to play a tank.

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Originally Posted by furtim

If you lose aggro, DC pulls it back for you. If that sounds really simple, it is, because you're supposed to be spending most of your brainspace on maintaining a defensive rotation.

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Like for example having 7 targets on you and DC not affecting the one or two mobs you lost aggro?
Like a boss turning and running to the hunter and by the time DC becomes effective the boss is out of range?
Like having to wait 20 seconds because you really needed that mitigation boost of DC and now is on cd?
Like not being able to get close to the DPSer or Healer because the boss you are tanking would kill them if you do so?

I wonder why no dev noticed that if aggro is tied to damage and our defenserotation has zero dmg warden are pretty much screwed.

They should add aggroleeches to the finisher defensegambits. That way we would have to start tanking by lifetaps/dots, build our defenserotation properly and then reassure aggro with the finisher.
This would add ways to tank more than 10mobs, give additional depth in decisionmaking rotationwise without giving us spammable leeches.

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Originally Posted by thunderchickn

Some of what you say seems contradictory. Maybe I'm just not understanding well, but I think you could be well served by opening your mind a bit to these changes because what you're saying you like about Warden tanking and don't like about this new update don't seem very different.

You like proactive tanking, not reacting to when things go bad. That's great, it's a good part of the warden still I think (building up buffs, heals). But then you lost me when you said you preferred to just use Aggression any time you lost a mob... That's about as reactive as it gets! So instead of not even having to look at where that mob is and who it's attacking you used 1 Gambit and got it back. Now you just have to look for it and hit it with a javelin. Javelins are very Warden, much more than clicking 1 button to get aggro on everything. There's really not much of a difference here in my mind.

Another thing about Aggression... it seems like you have some concerns about the +300% damage threat and how it takes away from what a Warden truly is. Why do you like Aggression so much then? I feel like that is about as easy mode non-Waden as it gets. I mean you're not building up threat to stay ahead, you're not being proactive at all, you have 1 button that gives you back threat on any mob you're currently engaged with.

I'm just not quite understanding your position, it seems as if you don't like some of these new things just because they're different than what you're used to but if you really look at it not much has changed from the things you do like.

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I think I'm just annoyed at the lack of leeches, and that fact that aggro is tied to damage, something which wardens don't do, especially when trying to stay alive. Sure, aggression is a great reactional skill, but if used at the right time, it's proactive. Pop, a couple of EoBs to establish a lead and then weave in an Agression every so often to keep you ahead of everyone else - pure proactiveness. I'm open minded about this, don't worry, it's just that what I've read seems to be moving away from where we are now, which is what I like.

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Originally Posted by furtim

If it helps, just pretend that Defiant Challenge is Conviction.

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no it doesn't help. thats quite a silly comment.

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You shouldn't need to be spamming threat leeches
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If you lose aggro, DC pulls it back for you.

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http://www.sampratt.com/.a/6a00d8345...1840970d-800wi


I'll save the long rant about what the gambit system is and is not, but active choice was a big thing. being forced to spam said "non-gambit" every 20s is a kick in the teeth to anyone who likes the gambit system.

and yes, any testing aoe aggro, you might as well spam that "non-gambit" every 20s as is your only hope to hold aoe aggro without losing defensive buffs. it's pretty damn hard to even keep up 1 full-finisher while doing anything else too, so thats almost 2 lines of gambits being pointless.

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you're supposed to be spending most of your brainspace on maintaining a defensive rotation.

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in that >20s window to do stuff next to "non-gambit" (which is also our best defensive buff anyway) you have to somehow keep up buffs hots that are around three hots + healing buff, nine 30s buffs, two 1m buffs and thats ignoring finisher effects. so unless you think you can do a gambit every second something is way off.

but wait! thats not all! thats ignorring needing to aoe aggro (note - only 2 of those buffs aoe at all not including DC), move, target people, stay in combat (we never saw that fixed for BB's), pot, lalalalala anything that anyone really has to do in an instance. BUT WAIT!!! warning shot is one of the best defensive skills you have... weird...

that "brainspace" for maintaining a defensive rotation will end up just spamming hots. nothing else as we don't have time.

i agree
i have also had this problem

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

no it doesn't help. thats quite a silly comment.



http://www.sampratt.com/.a/6a00d8345...1840970d-800wi


I'll save the long rant about what the gambit system is and is not, but active choice was a big thing. being forced to spam said "non-gambit" every 20s is a kick in the teeth to anyone who likes the gambit system.

and yes, any testing aoe aggro, you might as well spam that "non-gambit" every 20s as is your only hope to hold aoe aggro without losing defensive buffs. it's pretty damn hard to even keep up 1 full-finisher while doing anything else too, so thats almost 2 lines of gambits being pointless.



in that >20s window to do stuff next to "non-gambit" (which is also our best defensive buff anyway) you have to somehow keep up buffs hots that are around three hots + healing buff, nine 30s buffs, two 1m buffs and thats ignoring finisher effects. so unless you think you can do a gambit every second something is way off.

but wait! thats not all! thats ignorring needing to aoe aggro (note - only 2 of those buffs aoe at all not including DC), move, target people, stay in combat (we never saw that fixed for BB's), pot, lalalalala anything that anyone really has to do in an instance. BUT WAIT!!! warning shot is one of the best defensive skills you have... weird...

that "brainspace" for maintaining a defensive rotation will end up just spamming hots. nothing else as we don't have time.

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And, sad to say, dont forget, with the new system you also have to do DPS to maintain your aggro lead.

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Originally Posted by Higenetc

I think I'm just annoyed at the lack of leeches, and that fact that aggro is tied to damage, something which wardens don't do, especially when trying to stay alive. Sure, aggression is a great reactional skill, but if used at the right time, it's proactive. Pop, a couple of EoBs to establish a lead and then weave in an Agression every so often to keep you ahead of everyone else - pure proactiveness. I'm open minded about this, don't worry, it's just that what I've read seems to be moving away from where we are now, which is what I like.

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Thanks for clarifying. I will say that I am most sad about not having threat leeching, that was very Waden and I loved them. Let the DPS go all out because the more they damage the more threat I get!

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

And, sad to say, dont forget, with the new system you also have to do DPS to maintain your aggro lead.

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I do not know if you were in the beta or not (I certainly wasn't so I defer to you if you were), but reports I have seen show that even tank rotations do plenty of damage when you consider the +300% damage threat. While this may seem like semantics, we're not being asked to DPS while tanking only that we are actually dealing damage while tanking. Since nearly every skill we have does include damage with it, we will certainly be dealing damage.

Throw in our healing threat on top of that, and aggro is the least of what I am worried about. Could definitely be a concern, but there are other things higher on my list of anxiety for HD.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

in that >20s window to do stuff next to "non-gambit" (which is also our best defensive buff anyway) you have to somehow keep up buffs hots that are around three hots + healing buff, nine 30s buffs, two 1m buffs and thats ignoring finisher effects. so unless you think you can do a gambit every second something is way off.

but wait! thats not all! thats ignorring needing to aoe aggro (note - only 2 of those buffs aoe at all not including DC), move, target people, stay in combat (we never saw that fixed for BB's), pot, lalalalala anything that anyone really has to do in an instance. BUT WAIT!!! warning shot is one of the best defensive skills you have... weird...

that "brainspace" for maintaining a defensive rotation will end up just spamming hots. nothing else as we don't have time.

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I'm not saying it works, I'm just saying that was the idea. :P

But I truly don't see the difference between threat leeching and threat catch-ups. Seems like the same mechanic, just with a different amount of clicking.

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Originally Posted by furtim

I'm not saying it works, I'm just saying that was the idea. :P

But I truly don't see the difference between threat leeching and threat catch-ups. Seems like the same mechanic, just with a different amount of clicking.

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Simple leeches increase your threat and decrease the other fellowship members. Threat catchup means highest threat plus some. If you're the top they are essentially pointless where as leeches are still effective because the decreased threat of party went to you. Do you play a warden? Have you ever tanked an instance?

The only time engage was better than conviction/aggression/dow was in the event of a death you'd be #1 threat. In every case but that and possibly tank swapping (which wasn't impossible with a warden) a leech was better. And has been the foundation for wardens ridiculous amount of hate generation since the classes inception. Now they look like a squishy wanna be guard to me. We'll see tomorrow.

I've tanked on my Captain, not so much on my Warden.

I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate with this. I'm not a veteran Warden, and I don't expect anybody to give a damn about my opinions. But I do want to understand why you guys are so mad about this stuff. Just straight-up asking doesn't seem to get anywhere, because none of the explanations I've read so far make sense to me in a vacuum, so I'm framing it in a more oppositional way in the hope that something more useful comes out.

So anyway, DC does a catch-up that puts you at the top of the aggro list. The more threat your allies have, the more you get out of DC. Supposedly, it also has a +Threat Generation effect if you use it when you happen to be already at the top of the aggro list.

In other words, it's a single effect that can both create and extend an aggro lead. Which is why I say it's similar to threat leeches, because those have similar properties.

If there were a gambit that gave the new "Taunt" effect instead of or in addition to Defiant Challenge, would that alleviate the problem? Is the issue that you want threat leeches per se or do you just wish your big threat tool were on a gambit instead of a clicky?

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Originally Posted by furtim

I've tanked on my Captain, not so much on my Warden.

I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate with this. I'm not a veteran Warden, and I don't expect anybody to give a damn about my opinions. But I do want to understand why you guys are so mad about this stuff. Just straight-up asking doesn't seem to get anywhere, because none of the explanations I've read so far make sense to me in a vacuum, so I'm framing it in a more oppositional way in the hope that something more useful comes out.

So anyway, DC does a catch-up that puts you at the top of the aggro list. The more threat your allies have, the more you get out of DC. Supposedly, it also has a +Threat Generation effect if you use it when you happen to be already at the top of the aggro list.

In other words, it's a single effect that can both create and extend an aggro lead. Which is why I say it's similar to threat leeches, because those have similar properties.

If there were a gambit that gave the new "Taunt" effect instead of or in addition to Defiant Challenge, would that alleviate the problem? Is the issue that you want threat leeches per se or do you just wish your big threat tool were on a gambit instead of a clicky?

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My problem with DC is that it is a dual purpose skill with very different uses. Use the skill to get aggro and we might not have it if we need the mitigation buff. Use it for the mitigation buff and we might have it if we lost aggro. This makes warden tanking feel very limited. Really i would like to see the effects separated or wardens given more aggro tools.

With a 20s cooldown (reduced drastically)I don't think it is unreasonable to expect us to manage that cooldown and judge when the appropriate time to use the skill is for either of its benefits.

While being a clicky that I agree is not really in line with how a Warden has played for the past few years, it still does fit the mentality. You have to answer some questions before you use the skill, as you would any Gambit heal, buff, or threat skill. Do I have enough threat? Am I about to take a lot of damage? Do I need a lot of healing (thus generating a lot of healing threat I need to account for)? Are Oathbreakers or some other large damage increase available (you would have to increase your threat to anticipate)? Does someone else need to take aggro at some point? These are just some of the questions I found myself asking constantly during my raid tanking days, and I would have to weigh which questions were most important to address first. This seems to hold true for DC, though we only have to wait a few more hours to find out.

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Originally Posted by furtim

So anyway, DC does a catch-up that puts you at the top of the aggro list. The more threat your allies have, the more you get out of DC. Supposedly, it also has a +Threat Generation effect if you use it when you happen to be already at the top of the aggro list.

In other words, it's a single effect that can both create and extend an aggro lead. Which is why I say it's similar to threat leeches, because those have similar properties.

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First off, for clarification, I was NOT in Beta, just read and asked TONS of questions. (Over 100 plus since NDA dropped. Err.. just checked and edited. 190 posts since Beta dropped.)

Old version of Defiant Challenge was this: Activate, you go to top of aggro list (+1) for 5 seconds, mobs run to you, buff ends, you go back to where you were on aggro list and mobs run back to where they were. IF the new vision works the same, its useless as a 20s forced taunt that you will have to spam to even hope to keep mobs on you.

Second problem. our main competition for the tanking spot is a guard, not a captain. Guards have TWO, not one, tanking stance, and THREE, not ONE, forced taunts. THEIR forced taunt has ALWAYS taken them to top of aggro list (+1) and they built from there, never going back to being lower on the list.

Third problem comes from the Survival at the Barrow-downs I mentioned earlier. That was the one instance wardens could tank better than a gaurd since its inception. Know why? Tanking is not just standing there and getting beat on. It is keeping mobs on you while your group does their thing. Conviction threat leach mechanic. YEAH, after 5-10 min, I was running like a lil girl, but I would have EVERY MOB that had ANY aggro and was not forced taunted onto a gaurd on me, while the group whittled them down. I ran in circles while they picked them off for 35 min best time we did. Know how much damage I did during those 35 min? ZERO. I took all the threat my group had and used it to pull the mobs after me, in addition to adding some group healing to help out our mini.

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

First off, for clarification, I was NOT in Beta, just read and asked TONS of questions. (Over 100 plus since NDA dropped. Err.. just checked and edited. 190 posts since Beta dropped.)

Old version of Defiant Challenge was this: Activate, you go to top of aggro list (+1) for 5 seconds, mobs run to you, buff ends, you go back to where you were on aggro list and mobs run back to where they were. IF the new vision works the same, its useless as a 20s forced taunt that you will have to spam to even hope to keep mobs on you.

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I thought I read that all taunts work the same now. It's a force taunt putting you at the top +20%. There is no "back to where you were" or temporary threat. Is this consistent with all these posts you've read?

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Second problem. our main competition for the tanking spot is a guard, not a captain. Guards have TWO, not one, tanking stance, and THREE, not ONE, forced taunts. THEIR forced taunt has ALWAYS taken them to top of aggro list (+1) and they built from there, never going back to being lower on the list.

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True, but the effectiveness of the tank lines is really what matters here, and the fact that they can't go all the way in both of theirs. For example if our 1 tank trait line has the same potency of both their tank trait lines put together, well I say we come out ahead in that. Just an example, I don't at all expect that to be the case but it is at least a spectrum.

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Third problem comes from the Survival at the Barrow-downs I mentioned earlier. That was the one instance wardens could tank better than a gaurd since its inception. Know why? Tanking is not just standing there and getting beat on. It is keeping mobs on you while your group does their thing. Conviction threat leach mechanic. YEAH, after 5-10 min, I was running like a lil girl, but I would have EVERY MOB that had ANY aggro and was not forced taunted onto a gaurd on me, while the group whittled them down. I ran in circles while they picked them off for 35 min best time we did. Know how much damage I did during those 35 min? ZERO. I took all the threat my group had and used it to pull the mobs after me, in addition to adding some group healing to help out our mini.

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Totally agree. Through my research I haven't found something saying for sure all threat leeches are gone, just that skills don't generate threat anymore aside from the few force taunts that remain. Is it a done deal that MS, DoW, Conviction, and Aggression (all I remember for leeches) all having no threat leech whatsoever? Not even some set amount?

If true this would be the most disappointing news from HD for me, we'll have to see if something else can pick up the slack.

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Originally Posted by thunderchickn

I do not know if you were in the beta or not (I certainly wasn't so I defer to you if you were), but reports I have seen show that even tank rotations do plenty of damage when you consider the +300% damage threat. While this may seem like semantics, we're not being asked to DPS while tanking only that we are actually dealing damage while tanking. Since nearly every skill we have does include damage with it, we will certainly be dealing damage.

Throw in our healing threat on top of that, and aggro is the least of what I am worried about. Could definitely be a concern, but there are other things higher on my list of anxiety for HD.

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Just a reminder, since you just came back and all. Masteries dont do damage.

Nothing has been said about heal threat in the new vision of threat that I have seen. But, IF it still is low, heals will not make up for no threat leaches.

And, as someone earlier in the thread illustrated, a hunter doing 4K DPS would require a warden do 1,333 DPS. Now mind you, your buffs last 20 seconds, your taunt lasts 20 seconds PLUS you have to output 1,333 dps by manually building gambits for your buffs. Thats assuming he wont crit for say, 4001. Oh, and LMs, using Sic Em, were outputting 30K in Beta.

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Originally Posted by thunderchickn

I thought I read that all taunts work the same now. It's a force taunt putting you at the top +20%. There is no "back to where you were" or temporary threat. Is this consistent with all these posts you've read?


True, but the effectiveness of the tank lines is really what matters here, and the fact that they can't go all the way in both of theirs. For example if our 1 tank trait line has the same potency of both their tank trait lines put together, well I say we come out ahead in that. Just an example, I don't at all expect that to be the case but it is at least a spectrum.


Totally agree. Through my research I haven't found something saying for sure all threat leeches are gone, just that skills don't generate threat anymore aside from the few force taunts that remain. Is it a done deal that MS, DoW, Conviction, and Aggression (all I remember for leeches) all having no threat leech whatsoever? Not even some set amount?

If true this would be the most disappointing news from HD for me, we'll have to see if something else can pick up the slack.

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I was answering Furtim. Your answer was below that. However, unless some Beta tester wants to post otherwise, yeah. all threat leaches appear to be gone.

Guards have Yellow for AE tanking threat with a two-hander (which can block now, btw) and their standard Blue (one-hander plus shield) lines for tanking now, both generate threat. I would have to find the post, but I saw a post saying that all three taunts are non treed.

This is from the Guard forum version of our NDA drop.

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Originally Posted by oaceen

small correction, but it's actually +300% from everything i've read, so you only need to be above 1/4 of the highest aggro holder.
and this threat bonus is applied the second anyone picks yellow or blue as their trait line. no stance to toggle or set bonus to acquire.

also, to the original question, shield-taunt is still a skill for blueline only. i'm not sure how much threat is generated from it, but all other threat is dps-based plus the 'catch up' mechanic with the forced taunts.

also of note, challenge, fray the edge, and engage are basic skills that work the same way regardless of spec, so it will be possible to force taunt while red line with any 3 of these skills and effectively 'off-tank' something. it might also be possible to tank as redline, but i would say that yellowline using a 2h makes that a bit unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by thunderchickn

With a 20s cooldown (reduced drastically)I don't think it is unreasonable to expect us to manage that cooldown and judge when the appropriate time to use the skill is for either of its benefits.

While being a clicky that I agree is not really in line with how a Warden has played for the past few years, it still does fit the mentality. You have to answer some questions before you use the skill, as you would any Gambit heal, buff, or threat skill. Do I have enough threat? Am I about to take a lot of damage? Do I need a lot of healing (thus generating a lot of healing threat I need to account for)? Are Oathbreakers or some other large damage increase available (you would have to increase your threat to anticipate)? Does someone else need to take aggro at some point? These are just some of the questions I found myself asking constantly during my raid tanking days, and I would have to weigh which questions were most important to address first. This seems to hold true for DC, though we only have to wait a few more hours to find out.

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Having our only real aggro tool also being one of our most powerful survivability skills seems just silly. To put DC into better context one just needs to compare wardens to guards in HD.

Lots of misinformation being spread around here regarding how forced taunts worked in BETA HD in general, and how DC specifically functioned, especially frustrating when some of the misinforming were actually in BETA. At this point its not worth correcting as everyone can check its functionality by this evening anyway. Just please stop posting things you assume or think as facts, its painful.

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Originally Posted by furtim

So anyway, DC does a catch-up that puts you at the top of the aggro list. The more threat your allies have, the more you get out of DC. Supposedly, it also has a +Threat Generation effect if you use it when you happen to be already at the top of the aggro list.

In other words, it's a single effect that can both create and extend an aggro lead. Which is why I say it's similar to threat leeches, because those have similar properties.

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First off, DC affects the mobs, not the fellows. It only affects very little mobs CLOSE to you (5 targets as in Beta 6), as opposed to threat leeches that affected ALL the fellows, which means it affected ALL mobs. Quite a big difference.
Second, threat leeches didn't have a 20 second cd. Even if 1 Aggression didn't work, you could use 3 more in a very small amount of time, and assure the job was done. Now if DC doesn't work, you only have your DPS for the next 20 seconds (and depending how ahead of you that DPSer is, you might now grab them all back before DC comes out cd again anyways, or before that DPSer is dead.
Third, DC is at the same time out most potent mitigation buff that surely we want to have all at all times and out only threat match-up at the same time. So if you use DC because you need the mitigation buff, and right after you lose aggro on some mobs, you are useless for 20 seconds.

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Originally Posted by furtim

If there were a gambit that gave the new "Taunt" effect instead of or in addition to Defiant Challenge, would that alleviate the problem?

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Yes, of course. That would solve many of the aggro problems. And it should be a Ranged AoE, like Resounding Challenge, so we could be able to somehow direct the area of effect of the threat. And we should have a way bigger max targets: Our aggro limited to 10 targets means we are a very limited AoE tank.

DC should have a bigger radius too, it only affected the mobs that were literally 2 meters from you, even if the description said 10 meters. It should be 20m radius at least for the threat match-up.

Single target is ok. I never had a problem keeping one mob with crazy DPSers (mincy doing 30k crits, for example) just by using defensive gambits and keeping DC up. The big problem now is AoE tanking, where aggro is very unreliable and limited.

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Originally Posted by Nimrinoth

Having our only real aggro tool also being one of our most powerful survivability skills seems just silly. To put DC into better context one just needs to compare wardens to guards in HD.

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We really haven't learned better than this by now? lol... Major deja vu!

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

Just a reminder, since you just came back and all. Masteries dont do damage.

Nothing has been said about heal threat in the new vision of threat that I have seen. But, IF it still is low, heals will not make up for no threat leaches.

And, as someone earlier in the thread illustrated, a hunter doing 4K DPS would require a warden do 1,333 DPS. Now mind you, your buffs last 20 seconds, your taunt lasts 20 seconds PLUS you have to output 1,333 dps by manually building gambits for your buffs. Thats assuming he wont crit for say, 4001. Oh, and LMs, using Sic Em, were outputting 30K in Beta.

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Well I'm guessing the masteries doing damage thing is a jab at me for making suggestions without playing for a year? If it's genuine, well yes I would hope that if I tanked raids I know that masteries don't do damage.

The broken numbers notwithstanding, you're right it could go one way or another. We may not do enough damage since we use a lot of masteries and shield buff skils that do minimal or no damage, but we also may just have a large increase across the board in our tanking skills damage (which is one report I've seen). Or maybe new rotations will evolve that end up dealing a lot more damage than we're used to. I guess this will become more experience based and less theory based in a few hours, so we'll be able to compare notes a lot better then.

Small nitpick, but if it's +300% that would make our threat equal to 4x our damage not 3x. The "+" sign there is significant (whether Turbine meant it to be or not), for example "+100% damage threat" would be twice as much while 100% damage threat would be the same amount. This doesn't change the point you're making, just something that's been bothering me lol. Whatever Turbine intended will probably be figured out by someone who tests it within a few hours.

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Originally Posted by furtim

I'm not saying it works, I'm just saying that was the idea. :P

But I truly don't see the difference between threat leeching and threat catch-ups. Seems like the same mechanic, just with a different amount of clicking.

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"works" is kinda moot when we're looking at class revamps. we're the most stepped on class in the past and we've got a class revamp that seems more on paper than practice. don't try and justify it please, very misleading.

I'm probably repeating people's comments here but I'll list them off anyway.

"threat leechers" could be:

• can leech off people who wern't in melee range
• uses ALL allies as a stolen sample, not just highest competition
• utilitised, funnerly enough, the gambit mechanism
• veriaty of choice of which leeches to use from big chunky (aggresion) or smaller with defensive buffs (dance of war)

so a lot actually. it's like comparing chocolate cake to fruit cake, sure, it's a cake but you get funny looks if you put custard on it and get all giddy.

in an mmo where almost all the skill and gameplay is in these skills it's pretty depessing when 1/2 of your past good tanking gambits arn't even viable next to the spam skill DC has become.

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Originally Posted by furtim

I've tanked on my Captain, not so much on my Warden.

I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate with this. I'm not a veteran Warden, and I don't expect anybody to give a damn about my opinions. But I do want to understand why you guys are so mad about this stuff. Just straight-up asking doesn't seem to get anywhere, because none of the explanations I've read so far make sense to me in a vacuum, so I'm framing it in a more oppositional way in the hope that something more useful comes out.

So anyway, DC does a catch-up that puts you at the top of the aggro list. The more threat your allies have, the more you get out of DC. Supposedly, it also has a +Threat Generation effect if you use it when you happen to be already at the top of the aggro list.

In other words, it's a single effect that can both create and extend an aggro lead. Which is why I say it's similar to threat leeches, because those have similar properties.

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To recap the most important part of Miloneel great summary: the problem is threat leeches worked on many more targets than the revamped DC does, namely on all targets that a member of the FS had any aggro on whatsoever, by draining a fixed amount (depending on level) from all FS members in a 25m radius (who had any threat to leech). The new engage+20% on a few targets pales in comparison.

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Originally Posted by spelunker

Lots of misinformation being spread around here regarding how forced taunts worked in BETA HD in general, and how DC specifically functioned, especially frustrating when some of the misinforming were actually in BETA. At this point its not worth correcting as everyone can check its functionality by this evening anyway. Just please stop posting things you assume or think as facts, its painful.

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Debunk away! No telling how long it will be. (As of 20 minutes before this post.)

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Originally Posted by LotroOnFacebook

At this time all LOTRO game worlds are now available. We thank you for your patience! The Helm's Deep launch remains temporarily delayed, and we will keep you updated.

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Reading through all these pages was agonizing! Think I will simply shelf my warden for the time being. Maybe I will take a long nap! :D