Captain tanking needs a nerf!

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Dec 01 2020, 08:40 AM
1Asy1

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And if they disagreed with you, you'd probably find some other reason to discount them. Besides, requiring on level experience of all raids throughout all class changes likely narrows down the number of people you are willing to hear from to....I dunno, 100 people across the whole world?

I think just by looking at the progression discord participation in Remmochant alone during T3 progression was greater than 100, notably by most of the same kins/raid teams that have taken part in past raids. I'd certainly listen to someone who had a balanced opinion and not someone proposing to move A to B, which is essentially just moving the problem from one class to another or someone who can't recognise the importance of balanced content.

Ironically I was looking at the GRD in my kin last night during our T4 Threshold run with c.900k morale buffed, arguable could tank anything where the mechanic isn't a one-shot, just like the WRD from my kin doing the same. Content permitting. It's clear as day why most kins are using a GRD for first boss and GRD/WRDS for the second boss over a second CPT tank, yet the content caters for any combination of tanks.

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Yeah, 5 minute cooldown, 8s duration that dumps all threat unless talented is pretty well balanced. Some quick ST burst heals that will rapidly OOM you or go on CD (and thus cut into your ability to heal yourself) are also pretty good with their balance. As for DPS...all tanks in WoW DPS, tends to be pretty equitable until niche things like spell reflect in a 28 SotS pop up. Give the BDK's superstrain in a few weeks and watch them melt some faces.

Captain/Paladin similarity is minor at best.

I think we'll just have to disagree on this one, I can almost match skill for skill :-

Words of Glory - Word of courage
Final Stand - Last stand
Divine Shield - Shield of Dunedain

So on...

Whilst timings and some nuance might be different - someone copied someone. Oddly Paladin is one of the strongest classes in WoW too, making your statement about Blizzard's class balance somewhat void.
Dec 01 2020, 11:49 AM
Joedangod

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Whether or not it may be the "minimum" case, it is still the Guaranteed case Guardian Vs the Guaranteed case Warden however you want to look at it, you can continue to split hairs if you like, it's like for like.

It's deliberately misrepresenting the scenario.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

You have absolutely no evidence to back up what you are posting other than the fact that you "believe" they should be able to do it. I am telling you, as a Blue Champion who exceeds at pushing the Role in what it is capable of doing, they CANNOT do this without an off-healer/healer of some kind.

...You made the claim though? It's on you to run/provide evidence of a Yellow Guardian going through T5 Harrowing/Roost without a healer and a Blue Champion doing the same thing keeping as many variables the same as you can. I mean I stuck to pointing out on paper there is no major difference between the two from a defensive standpoint but you're the one insisting on a specific example.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

They are just different in nature and potency, this does not change the FACT they are STILL ALL support skills. Your comparison of Upshot Vs Redirect is an attempt at ridiculousness to derail the argument because you know you're wrong and now just arguing for the sake of it.

It's an observation on the fact that you've basically gone and ignored all the intricacies of the things involved in order to fit them under the same label. Humans technically fit under the label of featherless bipeds but that does not make them equal to a plucked chicken.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

It doesn't matter how many skills is it is (And I think you'll find it's 5 skills over 4 (technically 3, because BChamp doesn't have any) specs, because I omitted YCaptain). No one ever said they were a lead player in the role, Yellow Captain certainly is not a lead player in the role either, the point is, Tanks have offensive support.

Yes, some tanks have offensive support abilities and these abilities are "rare" for the majority of tank abilities are not offensive support related. Of the 6 tank specs 4 of them have offensive support, we can say that "Tanks may have offensive support" but we cannot define the tank role as one that "Has offensive support" as there are exceptions to that.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Which is why the bulk of my own and others arguments in this thread has been to buff the effectiveness of other tanks by asking for a buff to their support, which is directly in relation to the REAL issue here put forth by Lob;

And the OP and others have pointed out that Captains simply do too much support and thus balance can be achieved by dialling back their excessive contributions.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

The content ALLOWS these tanks to be able to do it, which further points out that there are fundamental design flaws within Remmorchant, you are probably the ONLY person on the forums to disagree with that fact. Secondly, IF the content can be survived by the tank, how might we better improve their standing against another tank who always seems to be taken, what does that one tank offer that the others do not? Support. Offensive, defensive, it doesn't matter the type of support, the point is, it offers support. How might we improve this situation? Give the other tanks MORE support.

I do agree that Remmorchant is designed poorly which is why I've made general observations that they should really be balancing around the average instance rather than one singular extreme case. You're making it sound like the only solution is to give the other tanks more support when in reality the same could be accomplished by migrating specific defensive cooldowns on to healers (who probably should have had them in the first place) and removing them from Captains. Similar outcome, very different solution.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

However, this flies in direct contradiction to your own PERSONAL OPINION, which has been so eloquently put by Ethrildar;

I don't pretend that it's gospel but I do accept that it's better design. If tanks are to be shifted into doing more support they basically just become durable, low output healers. Collapse the separation of roles too much and you basically wind up with everything needing to do the same thing and minimise individual differences.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

The point is, it's not THEIR thing, it is just as much THEIR thing as it is just as a much a TANKS thing.

You literally just showed that healers have significantly more examples of it being tools in their repertoire than any other role. You even showed that every single healer has multiple things in that regard and you've shown that to not be the case for tanks. There's crossover but it's blatantly not equal. Defensive support is primarily the domain of the healer and one tank is infringing on that by having the strongest abilities in that space, the solution is not to make every tank infringe on that.
Dec 01 2020, 12:00 PM
Joedangod

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Originally Posted by 1Asy1

yet the content caters for any combination of tanks.

And the sheer power of a single Captank guarantees them a space regardless.

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Originally Posted by 1Asy1

Whilst timings and some nuance might be different - someone copied someone.
Oddly Paladin is one of the strongest classes in WoW too, making your statement about Blizzard's class balance somewhat void.

Timings and nuance are making a very big difference in this case.

During 8.3 it was one of the weakest tanks but could still do most everything. The gap between specs is never all that large. Even Enhancement Shammy pushed 25+ keys.
Dec 01 2020, 12:19 PM
Hephburz-2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

It's deliberately misrepresenting the scenario.

No. It is not.

The Warden will have 70% mits. The guardian will have 70% mits. This is not misrepresenting the scenario at all. These facts are guaranteed, do you understand what that word means? A guardians usage of Redirect within the fight is NOT guaranteed, therefore to factor in something which is not guaranteed is misrepresenting the scenario.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

...You made the claim though? It's on you to run/provide evidence of a Yellow Guardian going through T5 Harrowing/Roost without a healer and a Blue Champion doing the same thing keeping as many variables the same as you can. I mean I stuck to pointing out on paper there is no major difference between the two from a defensive standpoint but you're the one insisting on a specific example.

I made the claim based on pure facts. I have done both, many times, and I'm sure every dam person in this thread and in this forum that would support the claim that a Yellow Guardian can solo-heal themselves through T5 Harrowing and Roost without even breaking a sweat, without ever coming close to death. In fact a yellow Guardian can pull half the instance and survive because of their flash of light heal procs, along with other cooldowns (which you oh so lovely ignore). Find me one person who plays blue champion who can do the instance without a healer, I'll wait, because I specifically went and tried it last night, (now, I don't have any U28 gear), however I have full Remmo gear and I upgraded my virtues to the new cap, even using store buffs, the BChamp COULD NOT survive. You are the one so hell bent on saying that they can - you don't know how the class works, you yourself said you haven't played it in years, so, might I kindly ask, you stop talking out of your ### about things which you have absolutely no clue, because you don't.

You can keep typing, and replying all you like, but ALL you are doing is proving more and more your ineptitude. As well as the fact that you cannot face the fact that you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

It's an observation on the fact that you've basically gone and ignored all the intricacies of the things involved in order to fit them under the same label. Humans technically fit under the label of featherless bipeds but that does not make them equal to a plucked chicken.

You really have lost all credibility, you know that? You go from one extreme to the other, none of which help to prove your point and make your case. A support ability is a support ability, or are we to start re-labelling every skill in the game? Perhaps because Grave Wound does less tooltip damage than Heart Seeker we shouldn't call it a DPS ability anymore? You know, Heart Seeker is in a completely different league after all. Do you understand how absolutely ridiculous you sound? You are really just making yourself look foolish.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Yes, some tanks have offensive support abilities and these abilities are "rare" for the majority of tank abilities are not offensive support related. Of the 6 tank specs 4 of them have offensive support, we can say that "Tanks may have offensive support" but we cannot define the tank role as one that "Has offensive support" as there are exceptions to that.

Tanks offer support. That is the point. Whether it be offensive or defensive, all 6 tank specs offer either offensive or defensive support. ALL SIX.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

And the OP and others have pointed out that Captains simply do too much support and thus balance can be achieved by dialling back their excessive contributions.

Balance can also be achieved by dialling back Captains survivability and buffing other tanks support, to the same end result, and quite frankly, better tanks all round*.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

I do agree that Remmorchant is designed poorly which is why I've made general observations that they should really be balancing around the average instance rather than one singular extreme case. You're making it sound like the only solution is to give the other tanks more support when in reality the same could be accomplished by migrating specific defensive cooldowns on to healers (who probably should have had them in the first place) and removing them from Captains. Similar outcome, very different solution.

*As above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

You literally just showed that healers have significantly more examples of it being tools in their repertoire than any other role. You even showed that every single healer has multiple things in that regard and you've shown that to not be the case for tanks. There's crossover but it's blatantly not equal. Defensive support is primarily the domain of the healer and one tank is infringing on that by having the strongest abilities in that space, the solution is not to make every tank infringe on that.

In Harms Way and Litany of Defiance (Albeit a suicide button in some cases) are defensive abilities worth more than half the defensive support found on ANY healer - so again, this is also not true.
Dec 01 2020, 01:14 PM
1Asy1

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And the sheer power of a single Captank guarantees them a space regardless.

Yet you quoted GRD's being able to do Remmochant at the highest level, which they can't because of the content design, which immediately alienates the other tanks too, because of the content design. Yet you could elect to not have a CPT tank in Threshold and still be able to do it... so no, it doesn't guarantee a CPT tank.

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Timings and nuance are making a very big difference in this case.

During 8.3 it was one of the weakest tanks but could still do most everything. The gap between specs is never all that large. Even Enhancement Shammy pushed 25+ keys.

Yep sure that's why a freshly levelled Paladin can tank a level 14 dungeon \o/ on Youtube, if you care to look. With regard to Lotro, I can elect to leave off the LS CD Gear and still do the content, from a timing perspective, all fine, I can leave off on my GRD, ow wait nothing, because Remmo doesn't cater for them

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Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post - I do agree that Remmorchant is designed poorly

Only took a month, progress.
Dec 01 2020, 01:38 PM
Jakreal

Of the three tanks, GDN, CAPT, WDN, it’s not really an argument at all captains are just so far ahead in terms of utility and defense. Warden lost it’s one shot protect ability with NS so I’d argue it’s not even a tank anymore. Regardless of what can be done, any content can be ran but it is a world EASIER when you have a captain tank let’s not kid ourselves.

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Originally Posted by 1Asy1

Yep sure that's why a freshly levelled Paladin can tank a level 14 dungeon \o/ on Youtube, if you care to look. With regard to Lotro, I can elect to leave off the LS CD Gear and still do the content, from a timing perspective, all fine, I can leave off on my GRD, ow wait nothing, because Remmo doesn't cater for them

Only took a month, progress.

It’s always funny when LOTRO players talk about WoW, it is a superior game with actual balance... but this comment needs more context and I don’t think you play at a high level if you made this comment. The video you are referring to was a month ago in pre patch where scaling was broken that any class could do it as well as being an expansion behind (BFA) the current shadowlands. That was all pre-patch.... (BETAish)

You won’t see that happening on live in a week from now when mythic+ and the raid drops.

Keep this convo from WoW, it is far ahead of LOTRO in terms of balance and challenging content that I don’t think anyone here, (judging by the comments), has any experience with or capability to do.
Dec 01 2020, 01:39 PM
Joedangod

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Asy1

Yet you quoted GRD's being able to do Remmochant at the highest level, which they can't because of the content design, which immediately alienates the other tanks too, because of the content design. Yet you could elect to not have a CPT tank in Threshold and still be able to do it... so no, it doesn't guarantee a CPT tank.

The power of a yellow Captain guarantees a yellow Captain, 1 yellow captain + misc would always be a better option than any other two tanks. All tanks being able to do the content does not make tank balance fine when you have one tank that is notably stronger than the others, take basically any instance outside of Remmorchant as an example for that, groups will turn down perfectly adequate tanks and opt to wait for a Captain tank instead, for Captain is stronger. Quit holding up Remmorchant as a singular baseline to balance tanks towards. The baseline we should be aiming towards would be a composite of all the cap level instances and that baseline would look a lot more like the current power of Blue Guards/Bears/Wardens than it would Yellow Captain. Remmorchant needs adjustments.

If you want to insist on keeping Remmorchant the same, fine. Migrate the overpowered defensive cooldowns from yellow Captain to the healers, nerf Captank passive auras/rev mark access/rez and all tanks can compete again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Asy1

Yep sure that's why a freshly levelled Paladin can tank a level 14 dungeon \o/ on Youtube, if you care to look.

M+ isn't out and beta tuning isn't representative of much considering how frequently Blizzard tunes things. We'll have to wait and see.
Dec 01 2020, 01:58 PM
Joedangod

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

No. It is not.

The Warden will have 70% mits. The guardian will have 70% mits. This is not misrepresenting the scenario at all. These facts are guaranteed, do you understand what that word means? A guardians usage of Redirect within the fight is NOT guaranteed, therefore to factor in something which is not guaranteed is misrepresenting the scenario.

Usage of redirect within a fight is guaranteed, whether or not it is up at any particular moment is not guaranteed. No fair metric entirely discounts it.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

I made the claim based on pure facts.

You haven't included any facts, just hearsay. Now it still remains a faulty measure. If we had a tank that only took 5% of all incoming damage but had 0 capability to heal itself and compared it to a tank that took 50% of damage but could do a fair bit of self healing...the latter would appear stronger in a situation where you entirely remove healers whilst the former would always be the strongest tank in any situation where you have a healer. You made the sweeping statement that Champion is the weakest tank, I disputed that and cited that overall yellow Guardian is a little bit weaker and now you keep harping on about a still hypothetical scenario that plays to your favour where you even omitted highly relevant abilities for your side.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

You really have lost all credibility, you know that? You go from one extreme to the other, none of which help to prove your point and make your case. A support ability is a support ability, or are we to start re-labelling every skill in the game? Perhaps because Grave Wound does less tooltip damage than Heart Seeker we shouldn't call it a DPS ability anymore? You know, Heart Seeker is in a completely different league after all. Do you understand how absolutely ridiculous you sound? You are really just making yourself look foolish.

Tanks offer support. That is the point. Whether it be offensive or defensive, all 6 tank specs offer either offensive or defensive support. ALL SIX.

You're stating that all tanks have support, I'm pointing out that they have vastly different levels of support and you're insisting that the mere existence of minor support abilities justifies them all having massively increased support. It doesn't logically track.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Balance can also be achieved by dialling back Captains survivability and buffing other tanks support, to the same end result, and quite frankly, better tanks all round*.

*Buffs would lead to numerically stronger tanks...yeah, and potentially a now useless Captain tank spec as you shouldn't be sacrificing features primary to your role in exchange for items secondary to your role, that leads to unused "jack of all trades, joiner of no fellowships" traitlines. Whether or not the tank role would have been improved by that shift in focus from defence/aggro/offence to support is up for debate, hence debate. Since 5/6 tank lines don't put any kind of major emphasis on support I'd kinda lean towards it not being a core ideal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

In Harms Way and Litany of Defiance (Albeit a suicide button in some cases) are defensive abilities worth more than half the defensive support found on ANY healer - so again, this is also not true.

The existence of two powerful cooldowns on non-healers proves that healers don't have the vast majority of defensive support abilities? I mean technically one of those is available to a healer but...still, huh?
Dec 01 2020, 02:19 PM
Hephburz-2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

Usage of redirect within a fight is guaranteed, whether or not it is up at any particular moment is not guaranteed. No fair metric entirely discounts it.

It is not guaranteed. It is likely, but it is NOT guaranteed. You cannot sit here and tell me that a Guardian WILL use redirect in every trash & boss pull in every instance and every raid at level cap, therefore it is NOT guaranteed.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Blah, blah, blah - I still haven't proven my point but decided to write 5 lines of rubbish in hopes that you wouldn't notice that.

I have my proven my point. I have tanked both instances with a YGuardian without a healer, ask anyone else on the forums, they'll attest to the fact it is possible to do it with a YGuardian without a healer, whilst at the same time NOT being possible as a BChamp. Taken damage on paper does not alone define whether a tank is strong or weak, there are multiple factors that determine this, Champion is, by far, the weakest of all tank specs, no, it may not take the most damage "on paper" by comparison, and thus may appear "on paper" to be stronger than 1 other tank spec, but "on paper" is not reality, and reality proves they are the weaker tank.

Now, who needs to get some perspective.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

You're stating that all tanks have support, I'm pointing out that they have vastly different levels of support and you're insisting that the mere existence of minor support abilities justifies them all having massively increased support. It doesn't logically track.

It doesn't matter whether or not they have different levels of support. They have support, therefore a request to increase the amount of support they offer to make them more desirable is a perfectly valid one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

*Buffs would lead to numerically stronger tanks...yeah, and potentially a now useless Captain tank spec as you shouldn't be sacrificing features primary to your role in exchange for items secondary to your role, that leads to unused "jack of all trades, joiner of no fellowships" traitlines.

What part of my suggested changes to Captain - 1/2 pages back, would leave them as "a now useless Captain tank spec" I'd really like to know lol.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Since 5/6 tank lines don't put any kind of major emphasis on support I'd kinda lean towards it not being a core ideal.

In your opinion. They have support, that is the undeniable point, and it is not for you to decide (or tell people it doesn't belong there like its a fact when it's not) whether or not it should or shouldn't be there and whether or not it should or shouldn't be meaningful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

The existence of two powerful cooldowns on non-healers proves that healers don't have the vast majority of defensive support abilities? I mean technically one of those is available to a healer but...still, huh?

Sacrifice is an enigma, I'm sorry but you cannot keep relying on this to make your claim, the skill is available to all 3 lines of Beorning, its potency/usefulness varies on your traits, you cannot argue they purposefully gave Beorning Healers sacrifice and not Beorning tank, especially when the class itself was originally designed as DPS, just because it has now found its place as a healer, doesn't mean the decisions made 6 years ago when the class was designed have any precedence.

So one healer with one defensive cooldown ability that was nerfed for the very reason that it was deemed far too powerful. Really helping your point here.
Dec 01 2020, 02:47 PM
Ethrildar

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Shield-bro inspire shouldn't be doing song-bro inspire healing though.

I picked this specifically out of the thousand words of drivel you've posted since last I had a chance to respond, primarily because it highlights just how ineffective it is to look at something from the outside in and claim "it says this on paper, so it works like this".

Thus far every post you've made about every tank has been to simply draw up what things say on paper and claim they work. As Heph suggested, perhaps you ought to stop trying to get us on WoW for a minute and make a Chank, go and do the faceroll easy 3mans on Tier 5 without a healer, you've claimed it's possible countless times thus far and yet the evidence is nowhere to be seen. Guardians can do this, Wardens can do this, Chanks CANNOT and yet you've stated numerous times so far that Chanks are perfectly viable compared to the other tank classes outside of Captain.

That aside... The difference in healing from Inspire between joining a raid as a healing Captain and a tanking Captain is literally a factor of 150%. You're ignoring 150% additional healing because it fits your narrative to do so. So I logged on and did some testing (which is hard to test and heavily favours your (incorrect) idea because of the passive incoming healing Yellow Captains get).

Despite the fact that my Blue Captain has 36.1% incoming healing and in this test, my Yellow Captain has 59%, Inspire heals consistently 150% more in Blue on myself than in Yellow. You're seriously having a laugh if you want to claim "facts" you've literally no way to even prove, when they're this ridiculous. Healing in Blue-line is utterly incomparable to that of a Yellow Captain. Additionally, despite the 150% difference in healing, a Yellow Captain also has no critical rating, putting crits down to around 10% down from upwards of 50% in a proper healing build, for a class that when healing lives and dies by critical luck.

Further, healing a proper Captain tank in Yellow line (or any other properly built tank with Incoming Heals for that matter) would see the 73k crit heal in the screenshot below shoot up to somewhere around the ~115k mark from a Blue Captain. On-self, it's about 20 to 25% of that at best.

At this point, my guy, you should probably just stop talking. It gets more and more painful, with each forum post you make, just how little you know whilst you scream in our faces that you're right and we're wrong.

Top: Self-buffed Blue, Self-buffed Yellow
Bottom: Unbuffed Blue, Unbuffed Yellow
Right: Parses from both (Blue 36.1% Incoming Healing, Yellow 59% Incoming Healing) (Far from a perfect test, but it favours your opinion and still horribly destroys it, so meh)

https://i.ibb.co/sR2H5Mw/Inspire.png

Edit: Image compressed horribly, direct link that can be zoomed: https://i.ibb.co/sR2H5Mw/Inspire.png
Dec 01 2020, 02:49 PM
1Asy1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakreal

Of the three tanks, GDN, CAPT, WDN, it’s not really an argument at all captains are just so far ahead in terms of utility and defense. Warden lost it’s one shot protect ability with NS so I’d argue it’s not even a tank anymore. Regardless of what can be done, any content can be ran but it is a world EASIER when you have a captain tank let’s not kid ourselves.

It’s always funny when LOTRO players talk about WoW, it is a superior game with actual balance... but this comment needs more context and I don’t think you play at a high level if you made this comment. The video you are referring to was a month ago in pre patch where scaling was broken that any class could do it as well as being an expansion behind (BFA) the current shadowlands. That was all pre-patch.... (BETAish)

You won’t see that happening on live in a week from now when mythic+ and the raid drops.

Keep this convo from WoW, it is far ahead of LOTRO in terms of balance and challenging content that I don’t think anyone here, (judging by the comments), has any experience with or capability to do.

If your going to chime in this late into a discussion read the whole thread first before commenting. You've completely missed the context and reason WoW was being discussed.
Dec 01 2020, 02:51 PM
1Asy1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

The power of a yellow Captain guarantees a yellow Captain, 1 yellow captain + misc would always be a better option than any other two tanks. All tanks being able to do the content does not make tank balance fine when you have one tank that is notably stronger than the others, take basically any instance outside of Remmorchant as an example for that, groups will turn down perfectly adequate tanks and opt to wait for a Captain tank instead, for Captain is stronger. Quit holding up Remmorchant as a singular baseline to balance tanks towards. The baseline we should be aiming towards would be a composite of all the cap level instances and that baseline would look a lot more like the current power of Blue Guards/Bears/Wardens than it would Yellow Captain. Remmorchant needs adjustments.

If you want to insist on keeping Remmorchant the same, fine. Migrate the overpowered defensive cooldowns from yellow Captain to the healers, nerf Captank passive auras/rev mark access/rez and all tanks can compete again.

I'm literally using your original justification...
Dec 01 2020, 02:58 PM
Joedangod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

It is not guaranteed. It is likely, but it is NOT guaranteed. You cannot sit here and tell me that a Guardian WILL use redirect in every trash & boss pull in every instance and every raid at level cap, therefore it is NOT guaranteed.

Err...I can guarantee a Guardian will use redirect in every single trash/boss pull in every instance and every raid at level cap and prior to that. Again, I just can't guarantee it's up at any singular moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Now, who needs to get some perspective.

The dude insisting that self-sustain is the be-all end-all measure of tank-iness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

It doesn't matter whether or not they have different levels of support. They have support, therefore a request to increase the amount of support they offer to make them more desirable is a perfectly valid one.

And a request to decrease the amount of support on one spec as opposed to buffing it on 5 is also valid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

What part of my suggested changes to Captain - 1/2 pages back, would leave them as "a now useless Captain tank spec" I'd really like to know lol.

It wouldn't, you'd be guaranteed a Captank as one of every tank pair. You didn't address core issues that push Captain above other options so it remains unbalanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

In your opinion. They have support, that is the undeniable point, and it is not for you to decide (or tell people it doesn't belong there like its a fact when it's not) whether or not it should or shouldn't be there and whether or not it should or shouldn't be meaningful.

By that logic it's not your place to argue to the contrary either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Sacrifice is an enigma, I'm sorry but you cannot keep relying on this to make your claim, the skill is available to all 3 lines of Beorning, its potency/usefulness varies on your traits, you cannot argue they purposefully gave Beorning Healers sacrifice and not Beorning tank, especially when the class itself was originally designed as DPS, just because it has now found its place as a healer, doesn't mean the decisions made 6 years ago when the class was designed have any precedence.

So one healer with one defensive cooldown ability that was nerfed for the very reason that it was deemed far too powerful. Really helping your point here.

Oh, I was talking IHW, perfectly accessible to blue and one death > 5, especially when you have a tank or DPS with a rez to bring you back. The sacrifice "nerf" hit on wrath gen, it didn't change the defensive value of it. Of course technically the healers had more than that before, fates entwined being one of those abilities.

Still leaves healers with more defensive support than tanks.
Dec 01 2020, 03:04 PM
Joedangod

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Asy1

I'm literally using your original justification...

Are you though?

Furthest back post I could find between the two threads:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

And what part of other tanks being unable to complete the content do you not get?

The part where that's a tank issue and not a content/healer one.

I've shifted back and forth a bit looking for a compromise but you guys don't really have any intention on compromising so I'm gonna stick to arguing the ideal approach of singular content nerfs/migration of defensive group cooldowns away from yellow Captain.
Dec 01 2020, 03:08 PM
1Asy1

We'll over look the BR thread then i guess?
Dec 01 2020, 03:11 PM
Hephburz-2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

I've shifted back and forth a bit looking for a compromise but you guys don't really have any intention on compromising so I'm gonna stick to arguing the ideal approach of singular content nerfs/migration of defensive group cooldowns away from yellow Captain.

Aside from finally agreeing with the entire rest of the playerbase that one of the main reasons no other tank can get into Remmo on t4/5 is because the raid is so badly designed - you haven't changed your view at all.

Which remains; to more or less and in some regard, completely remove the ability for tanks to have access to defensive support, and instead buffing healers to have access to unbridled levels of support, simply because you believe (alone I might add), that tanks have no place in offering support of any kind, and if they are to offer any kind of support, it most certainly shouldn't be in the form of defensive support. Which automatically flies in direct contradiction with the game we are all playing in which all of the available tank specs offer support, and in most cases, specifically defensive support, however, again, according to you, because they don't offer "enough" levels of support (What is "enough" anyway, and who are you to make that judgement call), we can completely ignore this aspect of the role and pretend it should never have existed in the first place.

Which just about sums up your argument from the past 6 pages and multiple other forum threads.
Dec 01 2020, 03:15 PM
Joedangod

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Asy1

We'll over look the BR thread then i guess?

I mean go ahead. I don't really suggest anything in that thread, mostly just document class features and get stuck explaining basic maths to...certain people.
Dec 01 2020, 03:20 PM
Joedangod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Which just about sums up your argument from the past 6 pages and multiple other forum threads.

Ha, now you're just making stuff up. I kept advocating for giving yellow Captains support abilities, I just insisted they be active ones that involve a threat siphon or some other mechanic that helps cover where they are weak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

I'm not opposed to the idea of a tank that offers support but Captain support abilities are generally really poorly done. Most of them are totally passive, the player never actually thinks about them they're just there. They are also pretty darn big in terms of magnitude. In this regard Yellow Captain is totally failing as a support tank because you don't actually feel that you're doing anything to support anyone. If we say dumped the passive support abilities and gave them buffs that they could actively apply on other players to boost their output (and siphon some threat from the buffed player) you'd technically offer less....but feel like you're doing more. And right now we need Captain to offer less, because damn does it do too much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

When it comes to proposing changes I thoroughly recommend proposing changes that give it the identity that people want to assign to it. They want to be a support tank so give them support abilities that they can think about placing on allies. Maybe make those support abilities siphon threat back to the Captain. Flesh the spec out properly, give it stuff to do that fits with its identity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

And that's problematic. Make buffing an active role and you massively improve the class design here. Hilariously removing all of the passive buffs and some notable overpowered support abilities (double rez/IHW+LS combo) brings Captains to a fairly even level with the other tanks. From there giving them active buffs that let them boost others whilst siphoning threat would help fix the main flaw of Yellow Captain and actually let people have that support tank playstyle that they seem to care about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

I'm not even saying remove support entirely, half a dozen times on this thread I've suggested giving Yellow Captains targeted buffs for threat siphons and the like (you know, address issues the spec actually has). My problem with Captain is not the fact that it has some support abilities, it's the fact that those support abilities are stronger than the ones found on support classes.
Dec 01 2020, 03:23 PM
Hephburz-2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

Ha, now you're just making stuff up. I kept advocating for giving yellow Captains support abilities, I just insisted they be active ones that involve a threat siphon or some other mechanic that helps cover where they are weak.

Seems you stopped reading after two lines and then read the last sentence, it's ok, I'll just repost the part you evidently omitted.

and if they are to offer any kind of support, it most certainly shouldn't be in the form of defensive support.

Now try again.
Dec 01 2020, 03:25 PM
Joedangod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethrildar

That aside... The difference in healing from Inspire between joining a raid as a healing Captain and a tanking Captain is literally a factor of 150%. You're ignoring 150% additional healing because it fits your narrative to do so.

Ehhh, was more trying to point out that it's weird that inspire blade-bro gets a heal penalty but shield-bro does not:

https://i.imgur.com/HiM1VEO.png

Kudos to you for testing the exact difference in output though.
Dec 01 2020, 03:28 PM
Hephburz-2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

Ehhh, was more trying to point out that it's weird that inspire blade-bro gets a heal penalty but shield-bro does not:

It's almost as if, Red Captain's primary concern is around offensive support?

And that Yellow and Blue's primary concern is defence and healing?

Who would have imagined they'd do less heals in red?
Dec 01 2020, 03:33 PM
1Asy1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

I mean go ahead. I don't really suggest anything in that thread, mostly just document class features and get stuck explaining basic maths to...certain people.

And that Remmochant was the original basis for your argument and that other tanks don't get a look in, therefore captains should be nerfed.

Quick reminder - don't worry I got you.
Dec 01 2020, 03:33 PM
Joedangod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

and if they are to offer any kind of support, it most certainly shouldn't be in the form of defensive support.

Where'd I say that they must have no defensive support at all? I can find a lot of places where I say that they shouldn't have defensive support on the level of IHW/Shield but can't find the "No defensive support at all" bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Which automatically flies in direct contradiction with the game we are all playing in which all of the available tank specs offer support, and in most cases, specifically defensive support

Nice, what're the big chank and yellow guard defensive support abilities again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

, however, again, according to you, because they don't offer "enough" levels of support (What is "enough" anyway, and who are you to make that judgement call), we can completely ignore this aspect of the role and pretend it should never have existed in the first place.

I mean really I've been going the other way and saying that guard/bear/warden offer "enough" support as is and that's why Captain should be reduced...
Dec 01 2020, 03:34 PM
Joedangod

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Asy1

And that Remmochant was the original basis for your argument and that other tanks don't get a look in, therefore captains should be nerfed.

Quick reminder - don't worry I got you.

You gonna link it then?
Dec 01 2020, 03:42 PM
Ethrildar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedangod

Ehhh, was more trying to point out that it's weird that inspire blade-bro gets a heal penalty but shield-bro does not:

https://i.imgur.com/HiM1VEO.png

Kudos to you for testing the exact difference in output though.

It's not weird at all. SSG deliberately targeted Red-line healing output in an update when they had very strong damage output, survivability, group support and healing. They stated pretty much exactly that in the notes, specifically targeting Red.

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