Muster in the Wardens Subforum

Hi! Just want to add my two thoughts about Wardens.

I think something for Wardens that how you need to press your combos changes. Slightly.

Like right now I have my bar for Warden as 1- Fist/2 - Shield/3 - Spear/4 - Combo for buttons.

So for like inputs for the Determination Gambit line it would be:

214->2124->21214->212124 - 18 Buttons

Instead, why don't we move to this -> 214241424 - 9 buttons

It would mean roughly of the base values would need to go down for damage. You could also change the go back 1 gambit to go back 2 (with like how we have masteries), so that you could do say 2142, but decide you are low on health jump back two gambits to 21 (so can use 4 again) pop it for another heal, then do the rest of Determination. I think allowing Warden's more free flowing and moving from combo branch to combo branch would open up some really fun stuff that you can't get with any of the other classes.

If you still want Wardens outputting the same damage via 9 as they were with 18 presses, you could make it so that masteries now are the engines to get these combos going and boost the combos it helps start. With Double Move masteries you could add a buff to each one: For Shield - Extra Threat + 5% Mitigation, Spear - 5% Spear Damage, Fist - 5% Light Damage. Nothing breaking, but just little ditties. I'm not sure of the actual numbers you'd have to do, I'm just using basic logic for stuff.

That's a thought I had at least in terms of gameplay.

In terms of specializations, I think if Warden's are supposed to be short fight tank (meaning high DPS from us), an idea as is to move Assailments' Barbed Javelins from 20 points to 15 points with Bull's Eye (going to 25, with Shattered Javelins at 20). I recommend this because the 55% Chance to Bleed on skills would be a boon at a lower amount as we can put a little more over into red for increased damage potential. It would mean a tank warden could theoretically put 30 into blue, 19 into red, and 15 into yellow for some really high damage output. Though I'm only speaking of short term tank fighting. It would definitely need to be something to test to make this all right.

Another thing you could look into is improving the base bleed percentage for spears. For everyone 1 to 5% and Warden's from 5 to 25. This meaning that the Warden's would actually be better served to wield a spear over a Sword (with the Sword falling to backup weapon). It would also make it so that Assailment's 50% boost for bleeds is pretty important for Wardens.


As for blue, I'd probably recommend changing Impressive Flourish trait into a trait that grants the Offensive Strike line improve morale tap. First two points would improve the morale ouput, with the other 3 adding the following combo sequence. Of course without saying, improving our mitigation somewhere is an idea. Perhaps having it so War Cry does that? Having it early would be ideal I think.

That's just my thoughts at having picked up Warden again in like forever.

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Originally Posted by ForTheGamer

Hi! Just want to add my two thoughts about Wardens.

I think something for Wardens that how you need to press your combos changes. Slightly.

Like right now I have my bar for Warden as 1- Fist/2 - Shield/3 - Spear/4 - Combo for buttons.

So for like inputs for the Determination Gambit line it would be:

214->2124->21214->212124 - 18 Buttons

Instead, why don't we move to this -> 214241424 - 9 buttons

It would mean roughly of the base values would need to go down for damage. You could also change the go back 1 gambit to go back 2 (with like how we have masteries), so that you could do say 2142, but decide you are low on health jump back two gambits to 21 (so can use 4 again) pop it for another heal, then do the rest of Determination. I think allowing Warden's more free flowing and moving from combo branch to combo branch would open up some really fun stuff that you can't get with any of the other classes.

If you still want Wardens outputting the same damage via 9 as they were with 18 presses, you could make it so that masteries now are the engines to get these combos going and boost the combos it helps start. With Double Move masteries you could add a buff to each one: For Shield - Extra Threat + 5% Mitigation, Spear - 5% Spear Damage, Fist - 5% Light Damage. Nothing breaking, but just little ditties. I'm not sure of the actual numbers you'd have to do, I'm just using basic logic for stuff.

That's a thought I had at least in terms of gameplay.

In terms of specializations, I think if Warden's are supposed to be short fight tank (meaning high DPS from us), an idea as is to move Assailments' Barbed Javelins from 20 points to 15 points with Bull's Eye (going to 25, with Shattered Javelins at 20). I recommend this because the 55% Chance to Bleed on skills would be a boon at a lower amount as we can put a little more over into red for increased damage potential. It would mean a tank warden could theoretically put 30 into blue, 19 into red, and 15 into yellow for some really high damage output. Though I'm only speaking of short term tank fighting. It would definitely need to be something to test to make this all right.

Another thing you could look into is improving the base bleed percentage for spears. For everyone 1 to 5% and Warden's from 5 to 25. This meaning that the Warden's would actually be better served to wield a spear over a Sword (with the Sword falling to backup weapon). It would also make it so that Assailment's 50% boost for bleeds is pretty important for Wardens.


As for blue, I'd probably recommend changing Impressive Flourish trait into a trait that grants the Offensive Strike line improve morale tap. First two points would improve the morale ouput, with the other 3 adding the following combo sequence. Of course without saying, improving our mitigation somewhere is an idea. Perhaps having it so War Cry does that? Having it early would be ideal I think.

That's just my thoughts at having picked up Warden again in like forever.

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No. No need to change the way you build gambits.
We need buffs, not another mess.....
Warden is literaly unplayable at the current state of server. Bad server performance, skill delay, lag, fizzles, the love of devs to give every mob pushback/power drain/or silence ability /you can also add stun, but this is less painful.
Masteries cd should be reduced down to 3 sec. Yes 3 seconds.
I wont go about the rest of the buffs warden need to be SEMI viable.
There are lots of other threads about it.
From years.
No blue response. No class changes. Nothing.
Showing one thing. SSG dont care /atleast for now/ about warden. Took them 4years to make beor playable at ONE spec. We see how much will take them to look at warden. Someone say that wrd changes incomming /reading it on discord/ but source is not reliable.
From what i see they may buff red spec a little and remove yellow, but blue will stay dead.

And when i say wrd is not playable i dont mean at all. You can have fun with mobile class if you are not planing to do content above t2.
Yes if you have connections you can find a spot in higher tier content as warden/ red and one per raid/fellow.
In moors ? Good luck. Outside the yellow spec grp play, you are useless.

I didn't reply to this right away because I figured I might've been wrong about something. I was only coming back with a few days of play, maybe I missed something with my assessment. I don't think I did however. TL;DR at the bottom if you don't want to listen to me talk about why I'm suggesting thigns.

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Originally Posted by PIZDQK

No. No need to change the way you build gambits.
We need buffs, not another mess.....

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It doesn't change the core way of doing gambits, just lessens the inputs necessary to activate our skills. Which should in fact improve what we're doing. Which would be a buff in my opinion.

Right now, say you wanted to run the Preserve Gambit line. Right now to get all of them going, you need to go through the entire gambit list. We're currently built for long drawn out fights, but the game has streamlined fights to be shorter encounters. If we can stack more of the things we can do, that actually IS a buff. If we're only pressing 9 buttons to get through one line, that means in the same time under the old system we're pressing 18, we can get TWO lines of our buffs up. If we're good enough, we could probably stack up all our own buffs that we probably don't need any changes. That's what I was trying to drive at. Our buffs last a minute (more or less), so if we can stack a ton of them, we're going to either a) do serious damage or b) tank very well as we'll be able to stack our defensive buffs up.

Both of those things are improvements in my opinion. Hence why I believe we should change it to less inputs. To compensate we might need to lower our buffs a little bit, because if we're able to stack everything, that might be overkill. That said though, if we can get easier access to our buffs, debuffs and other odds and ends, overall it would be a benefit to the class and all lines. Blue would especially benefit from this change as we can get all our mitigation buffs out and stacked, then move onto actually causing some damage. Red and Yellow could benefit by popping a heal or mitigation then swapping back to just unloading the damage. The only reason I said we might have to lower the numbers is because having access to so many buffs might make us way overpowered in comparison to other classes, but hey, just try it without limits for a while, see if it works. If it doesn't, then lower the output of our buffs and debuffs.

In Masteries place we would have Adept (30), Veteran (40) and Master (50) passives. This would be masteries, except it would just allow you to move into the next combo by inputting the next line in the sequence followed by the execution. Until that point, you'd have to do combos the normal way, so as to get people to do those combos and get used to them. Get the Adept trait, you can do Impressive Flourish, press Fist and go into Maddening Strike easier. Veteran allows you to move from Maddening Strike into Dance of War easier. Master would allow you to go from Dance of War to Conviction easier. Again, just streamlining things so that we can go faster at what we do.

What I'm talking about is literally taking Masteries and just baking it into what we're already doing, but making the process faster and more streamlined. If we're supposed to be a Buff/Debuff tank, then we should have our buffs and debuffs as soon as possible, not wait for it to build up. Well, it should still build up, but it needs to here and now rather than what it currently is. This would also make Quick Recovery (which would be move back 2 spots, not 1) a very fun thing to use, as you can move back in your combo from say doing Precise Blow to Fierce Resolve. Swap back to a single Fist then proceed with War Cry into Brink of Victory into Surety of Death. Quick Recovery there to move back to Brink of Victory so you can follow up with Spear to move into Resounding Challenge.

Does it change anything a Warden actually accomplishes (ie: changing any actual skills or buffs)? No. By being streamlined though, we're doing what our class sets out to do but in better fashion. That's what I'm aiming at for this suggestion. Imagine being able to do all of what I mentioned before. That's all done in TEN BUTTONS! It makes the Quick Recovery a very important part of the kit, gets us the ability to stack all of that more than twice as fast! Which is what Masteries was meant to do, but honestly fails as a concept, I believe.

Imagine Battle Preparation! You could set it up Resounding Challenge (which would be DoT in melee you'll see why later on), do that then go back with Quick Recovery to Brink To Victory, hit Shield then Fist to set up Desolation to have two of your most powerful attacks ready to hurt people. If you know you are in a long fight, you could set up Precise Blow (now half Light, half Moral tap, again explained later), Fist into Piercing Strike, Quick Recovery back two moves to Pierce to follow up with Fierce Resolve, Resolution, then Excultation. By streamling it, that's only 11 buttons! I'd leave Quick Recovery at 3 seconds in this case, because you want players to move to another combo, not just sit there on combos for a bit.

Being able to do that would be an actual buff to the entire class. Though, I said we might need to soften the buffs and debuffs only because we might be so ridiculously overpowered if we're doing things at twice the speed. So while yes, we might see a slight nerf to skills (say about a 10-20% decrease to compensate), the overall status of the class still shines through. That's still like an 30-40% buff for the class if they do lower things a little. I don't know about you, but that sounds like an overall success to what we're currently seeing out there. I don't know if those are the exact numbers. I'm guessing based on button presses not happening.

As for our gear, dump some of Vitality into Will, take our Resistance Rating that our gear gets and dump that also into Will. It is bewildering that the class is set up to be Evade & Resistance focused, yet the gear is not built with stuff into Will. Will not only boosts Tactical damage for us (ie: Light Damage, something the Tank class is keen on using), but it would also improve our Resistance as well. Yes, we'd have a lower morale because of this type of change, but considering we're supposed to be the evade tank, we should be able to "evade" those types of things as well.

Also Resounding Challenge should be DoT based on the melee version and damage only on the ranged version. Practically all the range attacks are damage based only and the melee DoT based, so we should keep that feeling the same, I feel. It feels highly out of the ordinary that it is flipped. I mean, I get it, there aren't many DoTs for ranged, but I think that's what should be different about them. The DoTs should be Melee focused, while Assailment should be base damage and Debuff.

The Morale Tap from Offensive Strike to Flourish or War Cry was wrong and I really shouldn't've made that thought that late at night. Precise Blow goes into Fierce Resolve, so it should have the Morale Tap as well as the Light DoT. Split the original Light DoT into half - giving half to Light DoT and other half to the Morale Tap. Sure, it lowers the overall effectiveness, but it also makes it so that any boosts like the Morale Tap from Blue and the Light from both Blue and Red, make up for it.

The funny thing is we're doing all this, then what we'll need to do is swap Mastery Rating and Finesse Rating, also On The Offense with Bull's Eye would swap what they do. After all, the Finesse Rating would be better served being in the DoTs tree, as you want those DoTs to crit. Whereas we've established that ranged should be focused on pure damage. So On The Offense should be critical focused. EXCEPT, the 25% Critical Ranged Damage should remain with Bull's Eye. The Bull's Eye now making Precise Blow stronger (instead of Offensive Strike) and also increasing the morale tap would be the enemy being being wary that the hero keeps dealing blows that stop them in their tracks type of lore reasoning.

I'd also swap Way of the Spear + No Respite for the Wicked in exchange for Barbed Javelin and Broken Javelin. Assailment's supposed to be our pure damage line so Way of the Spear makes sense in this exchange. Way of the Spear is for pure damage, whereas No Respite for the Wicked adds something to the Pure Damage Offensive Strike line, so a nice idea to leave it. Especially because we're looking to do stuff with just plain damage and debuffs.

Oh and while we're at it, move Barbed Javelin down to T1, put Broken Javelin at T2 in Red, with Bleed Damage being T3. You want to entice someone from Yellow or Blue to at least add a little bleed to their life, that's the way to do it. Move Bleed into T3, because you should be better at being Reckless to get better Bleeds after all.

I would also say that Momentum needs to be changed from being melee focused to having a purpose in range, though still optional for melee to take. Make Momentum be that with every strike you do not take, evade or parry or resist, your overall damage increases. So you can wildly swing from Harried (-25%) to Momentum (+20%) if you are using Blue or Red, but as a Yellow in the backfield, that's probably a steady 20% increase. A steady 20% increase is a good reason to be in Yellow.

You might think that Blue needs some type of changing, but I think that Blue should feel effects from you going down either Red or Yellow. If you go down Red, anything DoT related should boost the Heal DoTs and Morale Tap DoTs from Blue. If you go down Yellow your base Heals and base Morale Taps receive a boost in Blue. This might require an actual overhaul of Blue, but I'm not so sure. Just needs to synergy with the other trees, so maybe fix a tree trait to do that? That said, I really don't think the base of what Blue does needs to change. It just needs to synergize with Red and Yellow to function at a higher rate, I think.

Okay, I just realized that Careful Shield-Work boosts block, but we don't really block anymore, so that should improve our Evade, so change it to Careful Foot-Work and swap it from Block to Evade. Sacrifcing any hopes of blocking to Evade or Parry. The Shield is just there as another armor piece, not really there to block. Technically. Change Stand Your Ground to Improved Foot-Work with Block being sacrificed for Evade and Parry while we're at it.

Does this fundamentally change how Warden would function? Of course it would. I'm practically suggesting as much. There's going to be quite a few differences. I can't sugarcoat it for you saying "hey, we won't change things, but we'll improve things". That's not how things improve. Anything to improve Warden is going to change the class from what we currently know it as.

However for the TL;DR folks: streamline the combo process getting rid of the outdated mastery system improving our button presses by at least what I would assume is 30-40% by baking that into the class. While the overall change would be 50-60% increase in my guessing, I'm assuming SSG would need to compensate by loweting our totals a little (though I would hope not). By making Reckless Melee/DoT focused and Assailment Range/Debuff focused, we give each of the two very defined types of roles. By synergizing those two concepts with Blue, we can get technically have two tank types for the price of one. By taking Will and sacrificing a little Vitality on our gear, we'd improve our resistances and make it so that those nasty things like drains, stuns and stuff don't affect us as badly as they can right now.

My changes also would fit in with how SSG seems to want classes to go. Defined roles and set ups, with some added flair for interesting times. I'm just sorry I didn't post right away, because I figured maybe I was out of touch with the class the way I was thinking things up. Frankly, no, these are definitely my suggestions to the class. Also totally admit I don't have any solution about lag. No idea how to help there.

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Originally Posted by ForTheGamer

[...] because I figured maybe I was out of touch with the class the way I was thinking things up.

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I think you kind of are.

You seem to assume that "getting all gambit buffs up" is the problem with wardens. It isn't. Even with all gambit buffs for free, wardens are not competetive (as higher-tier tanks, that is).

You also seem to assume that people want to run through gambit chains in order. They don't. You weave different gambits together to make efficient use of masteries, or you use gambits without bothering with chains. For example, you would go Persevere > Safeguard > wait a bit for masteries > Celebration of Skill. And while you're waiting, you would just hit, say, Surety of Death directly, without bothering with the chain. Because chains are pretty unimportant. For the most part, Perservere > Safeguard is worth using, and perhaps Flourish > Maddening, but that is mainly because those gambits are individually worth using (and roughly equally powerful), because there is little else to do, and because warden tanks are so weak that they need every little bonus. If you have a little more breathing room (or a little less time), you don't hit any chains.

You also seem to assume that people want their gambits to roll out with as little effort as possible. They don't. Gambits are supposed to be somewhat slow to build. Masteries reduce the time it takes to build gambits, but they also have a cooldown. You have to use them on the right gambits—where they'll have the most impact—but you also can't save them too long, or you'll waste uses. In other words: masteries are a resource, and managing that resource is the core of the gambit system. Removing masteries from the warden is like removing wrath from the beorning: it guts the class and makes it pointless.

Gambits are balanced around the idea that they (a) slow to build, (b) have no cooldown, (c) are individually powerful, (d) offer benefits over time, and (e) do not stack with themselves*. For example, Desolation has very high total base damage and no cooldown, but since it doesn't stack with itself, it has an effective cooldown of 28 seconds. That cooldown forces you to use other damaging skills, which have lower base damage totals.

A warden can lean into a role by spending more and more gambits in that direction, each with further diminishing returns. Do you want to do "a bit" of damage? You can do that very efficiently with just one Desolation (or Unerring Strike, or Resounding Challenge) every ~30 seconds or so. Do you want to do "a bit" of healing? One Restoration per 20 seconds is (well, used to be) efficient. Do you want to do more? Add the next most powerful gambit(s) until you have enough. What do chains do? Chains provide a small reward for building gambits in the wrong order (i.e. smallest one first).

Following this logic gets you the warden DPS rotation: use the largest number of the most powerful gambits, as limited by time and mastery cooldowns. Chains don't enter into it, because chains don't boost damage**, and because they require inefficient gambits***.
When tanking, chains do matter, for one good reason—the chain actually boosts defence—and one not-so-great reason: buffs last much longer than bleeds, but there aren't that many more to use, leaving a warden tank with very little to do besides chasing minor block/incoming healing bonuses.
In situations where you are trying to combine damage and defence, you simply hit the biggest gambits in each category.

The gambit system is what allows the warden to trade one "cooldown" for another, to sacrifice everything at the altar of doing just one thing, or to do multiple things more efficiently. This is what drives the warden's ability to solo, and the ability to do some damage while tanking (both much reduced today). The execution isn't always great, as we see with the current state of tanking, but it is a very good concept that should be expanded, not removed.


*Not all gambits have all of these properties, but they generally ought to have them, and most do, especially the good ones.
**Power Attack and Mighty Blow do increase the damage of Mighty Blow and Unerring Strike respectively. That's different from a chain, because you can get the PA > MB benefit separately from the MB > US benefit, making it much easier to use; you're not forced to use a weak gambit like War-Cry early in your rotation. On top of that, Mighty Blow is a reasonably fast gambit that sets up Quick Sweep.
***That is, War-Cry. The Precise Blow line doesn't have a chain, but if it had one (similar in power to other chains), it would't be worth using. The other chains don't involve DPS gambits.

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Originally Posted by Sindhol

You also seem to assume that people want their gambits to roll out with as little effort as possible. They don't. Gambits are supposed to be somewhat slow to build. Masteries reduce the time it takes to build gambits, but they also have a cooldown. You have to use them on the right gambits—where they'll have the most impact—but you also can't save them too long, or you'll waste uses. In other words: masteries are a resource, and managing that resource is the core of the gambit system. Removing masteries from the warden is like removing wrath from the beorning: it guts the class and makes it pointless.

Gambits are balanced around the idea that they (a) slow to build, (b) have no cooldown, (c) are individually powerful, (d) offer benefits over time, and (e) do not stack with themselves*. For example, Desolation has very high total base damage and no cooldown, but since it doesn't stack with itself, it has an effective cooldown of 28 seconds. That cooldown forces you to use other damaging skills, which have lower base damage totals.

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Thing is you dont manage masteries at all almost(mainly in yellow line). You are just tunneled into few viable rotations based on their CD. Wich makes warden very easy to play(despite misconception that it isnt) when you include overall slow animations and build speed and lack of decision making, brust or cooldowns. Point a b d are main reason for how bad warden is in majority of group content and how difficult it is to balance. And point b is biggest offender here despite 99% warden players disagreeing(including dev), you will never have brust or survival CD/offensive CD managment tied to gambits(wich they should be) without adding few gambits with CD.

Just to add another point about new class essence for masteries CD thats not relevant to this quote is a proof devs have no idea how are masteries used or why instant reset like STM is far superior.
This class will most likely be doomed with upcoming rework.

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Originally Posted by Osglinthor

Thing is you dont manage masteries at all almost(mainly in yellow line). You are just tunneled into few viable rotations based on their CD. Wich makes warden very easy to play(despite misconception that it isnt) when you include overall slow animations and build speed and lack of decision making, brust or cooldowns. Point a b d are main reason for how bad warden is in majority of group content and how difficult it is to balance. And point b is biggest offender here despite 99% warden players disagreeing(including dev), you will never have brust or survival CD/offensive CD managment tied to gambits(wich they should be) without adding few gambits with CD.

Just to add another point about new class essence for masteries CD thats not relevant to this quote is a proof devs have no idea how are masteries used or why instant reset like STM is far superior.
This class will most likely be doomed with upcoming rework.

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I agree that there's not enough decision-making involved in warden rotations, and that mastery management could be made a bit more central to the class. I think part of the blame for the lack of decision-making falls to the generally anemic DPS role in instances, exacerbated by the difficulties wardens have with target-swapping. But even taking that into account, warden rotations should be more dynamic.

I also agree that points a and d are obstacles, but that's the point of the class, isn't it? How do you make the most of a class that's slow and steady, instead of fast and bursty? Of course, the developers would need too actually balance the class accordingly, which they haven't done, well, ever, but that's a problem with the execution, not with the concept.

I don't agree that it's particularly difficult to balance the warden, or that burst or cooldowns need to be tied to gambits. There's no need to abandon the core concept of gambits (points a-e) in the pursuit of a "gambit-only" class. Skills besides gambits are allowed to do things, even important things.

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Originally Posted by Sindhol

I agree that there's not enough decision-making involved in warden rotations, and that mastery management could be made a bit more central to the class. I think part of the blame for the lack of decision-making falls to the generally anemic DPS role in instances, exacerbated by the difficulties wardens have with target-swapping. But even taking that into account, warden rotations should be more dynamic.

I also agree that points a and d are obstacles, but that's the point of the class, isn't it? How do you make the most of a class that's slow and steady, instead of fast and bursty? Of course, the developers would need too actually balance the class accordingly, which they haven't done, well, ever, but that's a problem with the execution, not with the concept.

I don't agree that it's particularly difficult to balance the warden, or that burst or cooldowns need to be tied to gambits. There's no need to abandon the core concept of gambits (points a-e) in the pursuit of a "gambit-only" class. Skills besides gambits are allowed to do things, even important things.

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Just toning builders/gambits animations down would go a long way to make it faster/smoother to play. Combined with bit of procs/decision making.
Thing is brust via gambits or defensive cooldown/high impact gambits can be easly solved via said gambits having CD, like shiled tactics for example. It would only require 3-4 gambits per spec/role.
But majorit of wardens including dev that will work on class update are against it. Reason being "build speed and masteries are warden cooldowns" wich obviously doesnt work since you can spam 1 gambit easly over and over via battle memory/masteries combo so you can never have high brust gambit without CD or it will get spamed same way just top of my head surety of death was back when there was no other aoe options. And another reason is that its not intuitive/difficult to keep track of said things in head and you shouldnt rely on plugins for it. Despite every DPS spec or every spec using plugins to track its own cooldowns and cooldowns of boss fights. But somehow 3-4 skills on ward would be too bad.

I would have liked to put more time and thought into this post, I may do so in the next few weeks when I have more time, but here goes as a start:

I think the current state of the Warden is quite poor compared to what it has been over the years.

I would like to see:
Mitigation buffs extended to 2.5 minutes – possibly to some extent raid/fellowship wide
Morale drains needs to be upped somewhat, more pulses? Shorter inter pulse period?
Shield line healing needs a significant boost – possibly to some extent raid/fellowship wide, as mentioned prior in this thread this could be linked to a (blue) capstone.
A mix of Heavy and Medium armour useable on certain slots.
Raise mitigation caps
Never surrender needs fixing it’s not working as intended.
Auto forced march once out of combat

I remember logging in on my warden during the heady years and within the first 30 seconds receiving multiple tells relating to group content. I used to very much enjoy pushing this amazing class beyond what I perceived as its limits. These days I don’t really bother with group content on my Warden…. Sadly.

Hey everyone,

I just wanted to chime in and say thanks again for the continued discussion and responses. I've read everything in here more than once, and I appreciate you taking the time to organize your thoughts and feedback. Warden work is underway, and I'm excited to be able to share more information with you soon about the upcoming changes.

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Originally Posted by OnnMacMahal

Hey everyone,

I just wanted to chime in and say thanks again for the continued discussion and responses. I've read everything in here more than once, and I appreciate you taking the time to organize your thoughts and feedback. Warden work is underway, and I'm excited to be able to share more information with you soon about the upcoming changes.

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I am thankful for the input you have provided and the highly active commitment you have shown. It its is obvious via the Gyniverse discord how much input you have asked for. Please continue.

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Originally Posted by thulphant

I am thankful for the input you have provided and the highly active commitment you have shown. It its is obvious via the Gyniverse discord how much input you have asked for. Please continue.

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Maybe someone from SSG could post the Gyniverse discord information here on the official LOTRO forums to save people from having to search for the information and updates that were shared?

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Originally Posted by Neinda

Maybe someone from SSG could post the Gyniverse discord information here on the official LOTRO forums to save people from having to search for the information and updates that were shared?

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They cant because it was not an information dump but rather long term discussion with players that took place over longer time. Honestly i dont blame him for favoring Discord over forums for this type of disscusion as its much faster.

I'm not an end-game player and since raids are usually for people at level cap, I feel like focusing on quality-of-life improvements would be most important for like 80% of warden players rather than raid content.

That being said, I think one thing I've always wondered is: Should classes that are more challenging to play be more powerful? Why should a much easier class be balanced with a more challenging one?

I do think one big advantage that warden has over other classes is that you can switch between medium tank, ranged dps, single-target DoT, and AoE DoT very fluidly within one battle.

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Originally Posted by Novina

They cant because it was not an information dump but rather long term discussion with players that took place over longer time. Honestly i dont blame him for favoring Discord over forums for this type of disscusion as its much faster.

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Can anyone summarize a couple bullet point of concepts that might be coming?

Divorcing mits from dc?
Yellow line going the way of the minstrel/brawler?
Any boost to dps?
Is there an intention to make us viable end game tanks for all content?

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Originally Posted by Rinlul

Should classes that are more challenging to play be more powerful? Why should a much easier class be balanced with a more challenging one?

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This! So much this!

Why am I clicking battle-preparation, 3-2-3-1 (use gambit) 1-2-3-1-2 (use gambit) 3-2-3-2-3 (use gambit) then waiting for enemies to die, when a hunter clicks once and a whole group of enemies dies as soon as the attack lands? The more difficult/complicated class should be more rewarding.

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Originally Posted by Halphast

This! So much this!

Why am I clicking battle-preparation, 3-2-3-1 (use gambit) 1-2-3-1-2 (use gambit) 3-2-3-2-3 (use gambit) then waiting for enemies to die, when a hunter clicks once and a whole group of enemies dies as soon as the attack lands? The more difficult/complicated class should be more rewarding.

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No it should not (i play lWarden). For me bigger complexity and gambit system are reward enough. If you make more complex classes stronger you force ppl to play class design they dont like in order to compete.

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Originally Posted by Rinlul

I'm not an end-game player and since raids are usually for people at level cap, I feel like focusing on quality-of-life improvements would be most important for like 80% of warden players rather than raid content.

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What you miss, when playing solo in the Questing Area?
Warden with the Ports in some Areas are fine for playing the Quest Area.
Many damage depends on Bleeds and Lightburns. So longer fights will be better to build some Gambits, byside the stong and long you put in Battlememory before the fight starts.
As you reset the gambits, when coming out of combat.
For that a longer Gambit "keep alive" would be nice.

The 20% players that wants to play Raids, as you value. So should they not be able to get an Slot for the Endgame Content?
They bring Damage depending on Dot with them and some debuffs, on that many benefits, but a mediocre Hunter can outperform them?

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Originally Posted by Rinlul

That being said, I think one thing I've always wondered is: Should classes that are more challenging to play be more powerful? Why should a much easier class be balanced with a more challenging one?

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Have a look in the guy with the Bow.
Easiest to play and even the base does a lot of damage. And the Gap to the few that does more ist still big.

The more Complex Class should not be easy more powerful, as the more complex class has also additional options, but is should at least be near or a bit better then the lowest end of other Damagedealing Class.


An Example:
In Europe we build often our Houses out of Stone. It is here very common. More, it is very uncommon to build Houses out of Wood.
On the US most Houses depends on Wood.

So the Europe Houses need a long time to build, and you need materials that are more expensive - this leads to a big cost total (have 5-6 times in mind).
It it then fair, if our houses withstand stronger Winds as the cheaper, faster and less complex Woodenhouses?
(So no one should feel offended. It is only not easy to understand why not building with stone in a stormrich area for an Europe guy - execept of the costs)

An Other:
If you have to fix a broken somethin, then you can use duct tape
Or you use maybe better and more complex appications like spines, screws, ...


Hope this will show, why more complex could and good played, also should be maybe better as the easy and cheap 1,2,3 and 4 Rotation.

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Originally Posted by Rinlul

I do think one big advantage that warden has over other classes is that you can switch between medium tank, ranged dps, single-target DoT, and AoE DoT very fluidly within one battle.

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This does not happen.
The Threadgeneration depents by the muliplier you get by chosing the blue line way as core.
In the Past x years (7 maybe?) they did not mentions this - you have a small lack of forcetaunts on the Warden.
The Second best option, to leach Aggro out of the Fellowships Damage vanish some years ago.

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Originally Posted by Halphast

This! So much this!

Why am I clicking battle-preparation, 3-2-3-1 (use gambit) 1-2-3-1-2 (use gambit) 3-2-3-2-3 (use gambit) then waiting for enemies to die, when a hunter clicks once and a whole group of enemies dies as soon as the attack lands? The more difficult/complicated class should be more rewarding.

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When they launched, they used to be superior to guardian in some ways, but at the cost of complexity. They made warden the most difficult class of the game, I don't think we can argue with that. A good warden need to remember all the gambit steps and the mastery uses, on top of all the things the others classes need to remember. It will always be a lot more niche than say hunter or guardian. I don't mind if they are a bit better at some things that others. Unless it's broken and they become needed for some content.

Basically, they already have a higher skill floor. A higher skill ceiling would make sense as well.

I had a lot of fun in LOTRO when I learned how to use warden and could run group content with ease, the minie or RK switching to DPS because I was doing healing enough to. It was gratifying and fun. I worked to learn that, I was rewarded for it. Like a dark soul game where you finally beat the boss.

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Originally Posted by Daguest

When they launched, they used to be superior to guardian in some ways, but at the cost of complexity. They made warden the most difficult class of the game, I don't think we can argue with that. A good warden need to remember all the gambit steps and the mastery uses, on top of all the things the others classes need to remember. It will always be a lot more niche than say hunter or guardian. I don't mind if they are a bit better at some things that others. Unless it's broken and they become needed for some content.

Basically, they already have a higher skill floor. A higher skill ceiling would make sense as well.

I had a lot of fun in LOTRO when I learned how to use warden and could run group content with ease, the minie or RK switching to DPS because I was doing healing enough to. It was gratifying and fun. I worked to learn that, I was rewarded for it. Like a dark soul game where you finally beat the boss.

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Rather than harder to play than guardians, they are slower, which means warden skills (gambits) should be more powerful than guardian skills by a fair difference, given it takes around 2-3 times to build a warden skill than it does to use guardian one.

I would like to thank OnnMacMahal for replying to their thread.

To start off I will admit that I do not play the raid game, and I do not PvmP. So I cannot really comment on class balance and things like that. But I have played a Warden since day 1 of their creation.

That said, my suggestions are just 2 things, probably neither of which is easy.

The first deals with Targeting, and there are 2 problems in my opinion with targeting.

Every class has a skill that removes corruptions. On the Warden it is called, "First Aid", on a Burglar it is called "Burglar's Antidote", etc. This is a self targeting skill that will proc if you target yourself, a mob, another player or NPC or even nothing, except if you have a DOT on a mob and this mob dies when you activate your skill but before it has proc, the skill will time out and thus your corruption will not be removed.

Also, I really hate the fact that when I have multiple mobs on me and I want to switch targets, that when I press the button to cycle thru targets instead of switching to the nearest mob next to the one I have currently targeted, it switches to a mob clear across the room. If I have auto move to target clicked then I start moving across the room and lose my positioning advantage. Otherwise with auto-attack on, my character will then throw a javelin and pull this mob and any mobs linked to it to me weather I want them or not.

So I do not know if the Targeting Features can be changed or even if they should be. Maybe this is a feature this class will have to live with.

The second issue is Blue Line Threat, I do not know how you can fix that to help make Blue Warden a tank again but it would be nice to be able to play a class that allows for all phases of the game to be enjoyed, Group Play via Tanking or Support, Solo Play via Melee or Range.

Someone above mentioned the ease of switching from one stance to another, it maybe easy but you do not get full benefits unless you also switch your Skill Tree, Virtues and Legendary Items which cannot be done while in combat.

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Originally Posted by OnnMacMahal

Hey everyone,

I just wanted to chime in and say thanks again for the continued discussion and responses. I've read everything in here more than once, and I appreciate you taking the time to organize your thoughts and feedback. Warden work is underway, and I'm excited to be able to share more information with you soon about the upcoming changes.

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Can I chime in with a few more last-minute things? I'm not really asking, I'm going to chime in anyway, but I wanted to seem polite about it.

1.) Critical Strike. This skill is bad. I don't think this skill has been relevant since... Dunland? Maybe? Tops? It had a brief stint with being OP, back when it was immediate and Wardens could use it every time something got CC'd to interrupt their animations, but that was over a decade ago. With Crowd Control not being as relevant, at least in instances, as it once was, maybe this skill should be dropped entirely. I don't think anyone would miss it. At a bare minimum, it needs about 500% of its current damage. Or you could just double its damage and make it immediate again. People are complaining about animation length on certain skills, so that might address two problems with one tweak.

2.) Battle Preparation. Can we lose the animations for the non-mastery gambit builders? They are crazy slow and it's generally easier just to use masteries and recovery skills... Though it is fun to turn on Battle Prep and then do Yoga dances in front of other players. It's like a really annoying series of emotes.

3.) The Power Attack line. Can these gambits be made a bit more powerful? At least specced Red? Unless I'm in a long fight, there is no reason to use these gambits, it's always better just to use the War-Cry line as they do comparable DOT damage, but with better burst damage and additional effects of top of the raw damage. Even with Quick Sweep, Power Attack doesn't see a lot of use in my general rotation, Mighty Blow only really gets used because it tends to make use of the masteries I have available, and Unerring Strike isn't as good as Surety of Death, Desolation, or Resounding Challenge.

4.) Honed Spikes. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use this trait. When you're in Red, you're not even using shield skills. It might be decent if it got a bit of a buff and was moved over to the Blue line.

5.) Seize The Moment. Alright, hot and spicy take: I don't think this trait should exist in its current form. Bypassing mastery cool downs feels like bypassing a facet of the class. Most people who run Yellow are only doing so for this one trait; it's OP and a class bandage for the lag issues. At the very least, the skills needs the "Remove the cool downs for 10 seconds" part removed. Honestly, I'd also like to see a timer thrown on the "reset the cool downs" part as well, maybe similarly to what Lore Masters have. Such a change, with no other support, would amount to a pretty large nerf to DPS, but it's something I would like to see happen down the road.

Once upon a time, my warden held the line in many dungeons, protecting her friends and companions from the worst attacks of the enemy while strengthening their resolve. She was so very strong and valiant. Those glorious days now wax into distant memory.

If I had but one wish from my warden, it would be that she could hold the line as she did in 2013. Red and yellow wardens are not wardens. You will never ever convince me otherwise.

If you cannot fix something, please do not rip it out. Leave it fallow for the next developer to consider in years to come, for once something is ripped out, it will never return.

I do not need anything sped up. I do not need anything simplified.

I am counting on you to make wardens glorious, as they were in days of yore. Please measure twice and cut once.

It's been a long time since I posted in the forums, but Red-Line Warden is my favorite class by far and I wanted to share some basic thoughts.

Most importantly, we need a little more burst. I understand adding more burst to the already significant DoT damage risks power imbalance, but I think the quick sweep trait line can be reworked to grant more upfront damage to the power attack line while removing the bleed, or maybe give the power attack line a more substantial gambit chain bonus.

Javelin skill DPS should be increased, because all of them are useless except marked/diminished target. Wages of fear particularly should have much more benefit for positional damage.

Resounding challenges should be swapped. In melee it should grant the AoE dot and assailment should get the upfront damage, this matches their playstyles better.

Overall I think the changes should more minute than for example the recent minstrel changes. There's a lot right with Wardens, it just needs some updating.

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Originally Posted by Stanimir

Resounding challenges should be swapped. In melee it should grant the AoE dot and assailment should get the upfront damage, this matches their playstyles better.

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Yikes! Please no. Assailment only has two useful ranged DoTs: Ranged Resounding Challenge and Ranged Unerring Strike. Take away RRC and we have only one ranged DoT- and it's only single target. Red-line is spoiled for DoTs; they don't need to take one from yellow.