A Look at LOTRO's 2023

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

How is a Corsair who is called a Corsair to be even considered a good guy? Surely the name would need to be different... If they're really doing a "Corsair" class named as such then they might as well give us a "good" Goblin, Orc, Uruk and Troll :) Like, Corsairs are supposed to be slavers and plunderers, not even Jajax is to be considered a "good" guy here

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This is the definition of a Corsair: The privateer or corsair was a pirate but a nation authorized to carry out their robberies. In most cases, it was a particular sailor who offered his services and his boat to a monarch had to be-not necessarily of their own country and often in wartime.

As you can see, there's quite a bit of wiggle room here.

I was right about Greenway, right about Umbar, i'd be shocked if I was wrong about this, (I make my living deducing things).

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Originally Posted by k40rne

This is the definition of a Corsair: The privateer or corsair was a pirate but a nation authorized to carry out their robberies. In most cases, it was a particular sailor who offered his services and his boat to a monarch had to be-not necessarily of their own country and often in wartime.

As you can see, there's quite a bit of wiggle room here.

I was right about Greenway, right about Umbar, i'd be shocked if I was wrong about this, (I make my living deducing things).

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Which isn't a definition from Tolkien world... in Tolkien, anyone associating with a name or profession of a Corsair, would be bad news, especially to the Westerners. There is no wiggle room here, unless they're just going bonkers by having all NPCs refer to me as a corsair, but then they might as well give me a playable good one-of-a-kind emancipated orc and in the same fashion no NPC would be bothered by this fact

Interesting how some people always look at the things they don't like and complain about it. Over the last year people complained, that there was no endgame content. The devs acknowledged it and we get a new instance cluster in Q1. Now people complain that there is not landscape with questing attached to the instance cluster, while we just got two new areas and there will be a new gondor area in Q2 and a new expansion in Q4. I even saw a complain about the crafting changes, that you will be able to choose three professions how you like instead of the fixed three professions per vocation. If you don't like this, just choose the same three professions as now. And for everyone else it's a nice QoL feature. As for the many people that complained that lag is not part of the roadmap: this is just an ongoing work and nothing where you can say "We plan to fix lag in Q2". Also please don't complain about missing details. This is just the general roadmap for the year. I'm sure we get more details when each of these updates comes closer. Some of the details are probably not even clear for SSG yet. Just have a little patience.

Not every update will bring something for every type of player. That is just not possible because players are so different.

Of course there are also many kind words in this thread. I'm personally very glad that we even get a roadmap and have some insight in SSG's plans. I'm very excited to get some details in the future and in my opinion there is nothing on this roadmap that sounds bad from the beginning.

Some thoughts:

1. Why not remove outdated landscape tokens to simplify your database? You could set a time period to enable players trade them for marks, just like what you did with old legendary items.

2. I personally feel the old T1, T2 and T2C mode is much better than T1 to T5. How about doing a player feedback on the tier design?

3. Why not put those special rewards in outdated instances in lotro store? I desperately want some furnitures, emotes, and cosmetic outfits or weapons from some raids and instances that no one runs today, and I could not solo it either. You could set a reasonable price for them, and it is definitely not a pay to win.

4. Trading, gear dropping and destiny points are long forgotten failed design, why not do a player feedback to find a some solutions?

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Which isn't a definition from Tolkien world... in Tolkien, anyone associating with a name or profession of a Corsair, would be bad news, especially to the Westerners. There is no wiggle room here, unless they're just going bonkers by having all NPCs refer to me as a corsair, but then they might as well give me a playable good one-of-a-kind emancipated orc and in the same fashion no NPC would be bothered by this fact

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Where do you think he got his definition from? There may be other Corsairs, besides being from the original city state of Umbar & they also have a complicated history, even Lebenin & Pelargir were under their rule for a time. We have very little information on the politics that has gone on in that region (Harad & Umbar)for millennia, so anything could be possible & we must open our minds to that potential, this is all uncharted territory after all.
I don't think your comparison of an orc is accurate, but with these types, we've seen social progress: the goblins post War of the Ring - including with Viznak in Agarnaith & Shúkurz in Gundabad.

and btw you can play Monster classes already in the Moors.

So just let the lore-masters tell their stories, they aren't going to defile Tolkien's world, but we must give them space to grow it, as they have been.

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Originally Posted by k40rne

Where do you think he got his definition from? There may be other Corsairs, besides being from the original city state of Umbar & they also have a complicated history, even Lebenin & Pelargir were under their rule for a time. We have very little information on the politics that has gone on in that region (Harad & Umbar)for millennia, so anything could be possible & we must open our minds to that potential, this is all uncharted territory after all.
I don't think your comparison of an orc is accurate, but with them we have seen social progress with goblins post War of he Ring - with Viznak in Agarnaith & Shúkurz in Gundabad.

and btw you can play Monster players already in the Moors.

So just let the lore-masters tell their stories, they aren't going to defile Tolkien's world, but we must give them space to grow it, as they have been.

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2 good goblins can't bring new playable freep class, as well as 2 good corsars (Jajax and his brother). Umbar was ruled by Black Numenorians, how they can produce anything good in Tolkien world?

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Originally Posted by ReneKiller1

Over the last year people complained, that there was no endgame content. The devs acknowledged it and we get a new instance cluster in Q1. Now people complain that there is not landscape with questing attached to the instance cluster, while we just got two new areas and there will be a new gondor area in Q2 and a new expansion in Q4.

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This still doesn't change the fact there is no landmass attached to that Carn Dum cluster in particular, though, which just paints it as a "rushed attempt to provide stuff for end game people" (kind of), so I do see why some people would complain about this approach. Now, I have no problem with instance cluster in general, but - some of my world building concerns aside - if the cluster turns out to ultimately deal with ALL OF THOSE loose end plot threads, in such a rushed form... well, sorry, then I'm gonna complain about this instance cluster being just an instance cluster. Instances alone aren't a great way of telling stories that could have had far more merit with their associated landmasses and quest locations, plus, if it has a raid, that's an additional gatekeeping right there for some people.

The fact that SSG was completely comfortable with low level regions and ignoring cap (which turned out to be a mistake) doesn't mean they gotta rush with just an instance cluster beginning of the year (and so many of other things planned this year!), no matter the cost, because that's not ideal solution if it creates some other damage. I was excited about the idea of coming back to Angmar in some form (or expanding Angmar, with a new landmass) but if that's just a cluster that sports entirely different look than old Carn Dum and pretends to be it, then surely you can't tell me that's sooo great and the pinnacle of it all. The instance cluster could have been literally anything, to satisfy raiders, didn't need to be Carn Dum. Could have been a fortress into an Iron Pass, could have been some additional section/fortress West of Carn Dum, or even something completely unrelated to Angmar but still a fun cluster with great dungeon and mechanics. They could have even done the insides of some of the remaining sections of collapsed Barad Dur and paint it as that one last step in taking over Gorgoroth, a one-off thing. Or, if they're doing the Angmar and its plot threads, they could have been a bit less ambitious with Gondor this year and attach some meaningful landmass to it. Especially that I can already tell they're not even going to end up with all raiders and inni fans satisfied -> you know, by having this direct comparison and new instances outright in Carn Dum "reimagined" as they call it... you'll only invite a direct comparison... and I can already hear all the people doing that sort of direct comparison, comparing the two, and saying that these new instances are just boring and unfun #### compared to the good old ones. You just know it is going to happen. So, that's even stranger choice of a lone instance cluster, inviting that sort of comparison

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Originally Posted by Elmagor

2 good goblins can't bring new playable freep class, as well as 2 good corsars (Jajax and his brother). Umbar was ruled by Black Numenorians, how they can produce anything good in Tolkien world?

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You're far too hung up on the word "good".

It's a matter of perspective, Gondor conquered nations, they certainly weren't all good, same with Rohan. The leadup to the 4th age will show a lot more complexity, especially in high civilization as we travel to places like Harad, Rhun, Khand, Far Harad etc.

I never said we'd have goblin player characters in PVE, i'm just illustrating there is a constant progression towards complexity that would allow for this Corsair or even Haradrim class to be workable lorewise.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

The fact that SSG was completely comfortable with low level regions and ignoring cap (which turned out to be a mistake) doesn't mean they gotta rush with just an instance cluster beginning of the year (and so many of other things planned this year!), no matter the cost, because that's not ideal solution if it creates some other damage. I was excited about the idea of coming back to Angmar in some form (or expanding Angmar, with a new landmass) but if that's just a cluster that sports entirely different look than old Carn Dum and pretends to be it, then surely you can't tell me that's sooo great and the pinnacle of it all. The instance cluster could have been literally anything, to satisfy raiders, didn't need to be Carn Dum. Could have been a fortress into an Iron Pass, could have been some additional section/fortress West of Carn Dum, or even something completely unrelated to Angmar but still a fun cluster with great dungeon and mechanics. They could have even done the insides of some of the remaining sections of collapsed Barad Dur and paint it as that one last step in taking over Gorgoroth, a one-off thing. Or, if they're doing the Angmar and its plot threads, they could have been a bit less ambitious with Gondor this year and attach some meaningful landmass to it. Especially that I can already tell they're not even going to end up with all raiders and inni fans satisfied -> you know, by having this direct comparison and new instances outright in Carn Dum "reimagined" as they call it... you'll only invite a direct comparison... and I can already hear all the people doing that sort of direct comparison, comparing the two, and saying that these new instances are just boring and unfun #### compared to the good old ones. You just know it is going to happen. So, that's even stranger choice of a lone instance cluster, inviting that sort of comparison

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It certainly wasn't a mistake and complaining about it when we got some lovely new regions and content that were sorely missing is a bit silly, especially from you who notably loves to explore. People often take breaks from these games, or alternate between others & if you don't (after 16 years nearly), then you should.

I'll agree Carn Dum doesn't feel ideal, but I'm sure we'll see their reasoning in due time.

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Originally Posted by k40rne

and btw you can play Monster classes already in the Moors.

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Yes, as evil guys walking around and killing hobbits for their tasty legs. How does that justify a Corsair walking around Eriador, invited to Rivendell, and being referred to us a Corsair with no sense of awkwardness and untruthfulness whatsoever? Stout-axe worked because nobody knows what stout-axe even is, they just use your namesake, see you as some kind of dwarf from another clan, and okay, no problem there.

I agree there might be exceptions, not every single person from a given culture (even if things like slavery and slaver profession are considered a norm) needs to be an evil, morally wicked/relaxed person comfortable with such practices. Maybe a few of them even want to be good guys and heroes. But that's the case, in that case they would never even considered themselves a "Corsair" and to be introduced as such, given what Corsair in the Tolkien worlds entails and what kind of reputation they have. It's as if a Stout-Axe wasn't named a Stout-axe (which is neutral, just a name of their clan, and it's not like they're happy to plunder or anything) but instead was called Dwarf-Mordorrim, which, just like a Corsair moniker, should be a matter of concern to literally any NPC.

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Originally Posted by k40rne

So just let the lore-masters tell their stories, they aren't going to defile Tolkien's world, but we must give them space to grow it, as they have been.

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They've never really told us this new class is going to be a "Corsair" so I'm just talking to you at this point, not them :P We're just discussing

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Originally Posted by k40rne

It certainly wasn't a mistake and complaining about it when we got some lovely new regions and content that were sorely missing is a bit silly, especially from you who notably loves to explore. People often take breaks from these games, or alternate between others & if you don't (after 16 years nearly), then you should.

I'll agree Carn Dum doesn't feel ideal, but I'm sure we'll see their reasoning in due time.

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I do take breaks or even play multiple games, so thanks for "advice" - it hardly changes anything :)

Also, you can't agree with me and call me silly both at the same time, it doesn't work that way. Either I'm right because I had a point that you yourself can actually acknowledge, which means I (or some other people) have every legit right to feel somehow strongly about things, or I just don't care as long as SSG are releasing other amazing content, in which case I will just never really care to point such things out, locked into a constant loop of positivity with a rose tinted glasses. But, since I love this game and really want it to keep at it and what they do best, I will point out such things if I see them, whenever their "best" just doesn't come through for some reason. Nothing wrong with it.

Doubtful. Like, you can hardly justify a differently colored massive tower from Dol Guldur appearing in Carn Dum, all of a sudden. Teleport? :D And Scenario himself told us it was pretty much "well, let's just do an alternative one and see how would I build it with pieces we have today" with no narrative reason behind it. That aside, there might be a reason to go to Carn Dum for that Rhudaur stone of course, and if it doesn't mean everything interesting that was introduced in Gundabad (beside the stone) gets cut down with an axe in one quickly-paced go of an instance cluster, then OK, that's great and makes sense!

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Originally Posted by k40rne

It's a matter of perspective, Gondor conquered nations, they certainly weren't all good, same with Rohan. The leadup to the 4th age will show a lot more complexity, especially in high civilization as we travel to places like Harad, Rhun, Khand, Far Harad etc.

there is a constant progression towards complexity that would allow for this Corsair or even Haradrim class to be workable lorewise.

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Now, see, that is true, however there are still so much underlying differences and there will be many practices in these Eastern/Southern nations that are like somehow normal to them that to the West just appear as utterly evil and immoral. Think of how Europeans think of entire Chinese government, but you wouldn't find as many Chinese that concerned about it or considering themselves evil and in the wrong. That's why, the concept of any such characters starting in Eriador regions and going though these questlines specifically designed around the Free Peoples perspective... wouldn't work at all. Unless they can like make an entire game dedicate to/alternate between one perspective or the other but they're not going to do that, obviously

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

I do take breaks or even play multiple games, so thanks for "advice" - it hardly changes anything :)

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I' m glad you do & it should.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Also, you can't agree with me and call me silly both at the same time, it doesn't work that way. Either I'm right because I had a point that you yourself can actually acknowledge, which means I (or some other people) have every legit right to feel somehow strongly about things, or I just don't care as long as SSG are releasing other amazing content, in which case I will just never really care to point such things out, locked into a constant loop of positivity with a rose tinted glasses. But, since I love this game and really want it to keep at it and what they do best, I will point out such things if I see them, whenever their "best" just doesn't come through for some reason. Nothing wrong with it.

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I can agree with certain aspects (btw I said it don't feel ideal, not that I think it is not ideal) & still think your overall premise is a bit silly (this is light-hearted banter btw).
I'm hardly saying to just be faux positive (which I can't stand btw), critique is always good, but to tell them last year was a mistake seemed quite an insult.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Doubtful. Like, you can hardly justify a differently colored massive tower from Dol Guldur appearing in Carn Dum, all of a sudden. Teleport? :D And Scenario himself told us it was pretty much "well, let's just do an alternative one and see how would I build it with pieces we have today" with no narrative reason behind it. That aside, there might be a reason to go to Carn Dum for that Rhudaur stone of course, and if it doesn't mean everything interesting that was introduced in Gundabad (beside the stone) gets cut down with an axe in one quickly-paced go of an instance cluster, then OK, that's great and makes sense!

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There are certainly different places in Carn Dum we have yet to explore & one would assume its been abandoned for a few years now, so it will likely have a new look to it. A lot of these Nazgul fortresses were wrought with magic, so it could be possible to see more nasty shapes appear in towers, I don't know, but I do trust Scenario's vision for the game along with the other crew they have there. They are much more communicative, willing to listen & discuss, this past year or so than they have at any time in their past, so I'm willing to give them a lot more latitude in all avenues, as long as this new style remains.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Now, see, that is true, however there are still so much underlying differences and there will be many practices in these Eastern/Southern nations that are like somehow normal to them that to the West just appear as utterly evil and immoral. Think of how Europeans think of entire Chinese government, but you wouldn't find as many Chinese that concerned about it or considering themselves evil and in the wrong. That's why, the concept of any such characters starting in Eriador regions and going though these questlines specifically designed around the Free Peoples perspective... wouldn't work at all. Unless they can like make an entire game dedicate to/alternate between one perspective or the other but they're not going to do that, obviously

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Yes, I understand cultural disparity, like Romans as depicted well in the great TV series "Rome" cared more about breaking their bond or word than they did death (probably because they were sure there was an after life)

I'm not sure the Chinese example works, all those despicable Chinese practices you allude to are not about Sino culture itself, but, one of pre-modern attitudes vs post modern. Every Chinese person i've known: be native or not - regards life as sacred - especially as they become more educated, including treatment of animals & people.
I'd even argue the Chinese have shown more care for their populations during the pandemic in some respects than countries like the US, UK or even Sweden etc.

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Originally Posted by k40rne

but to tell them last year was a mistake seemed quite an insult.

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no no, that was not my intention. I said "it was a mistake" because SSG/Sev themselves recognized that it was, in a way, and even apologized for lack of end game content, which is why they decided to make this year cap exclusive. But looking back - well, I loved new lower lvl additions! Though yeah, I think the ideal model should be more like just 1 a year, if they're going to do those. Having too many in a row can burn people out, and, even though I loved those, I was kinda beggining to get a little burnt out too, in a sense. Lower lvl stories/content are vastly different atmosphere than cap content, so it's a good idea to mix those, rather than have 1 year of just that and 1 year of just that. (Filling the gaps or growing the world is another matter, since there could be some good cap content candidates among these, so we could be seeing these more often)

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Originally Posted by k40rne

There are certainly different places in Carn Dum we have yet to explore & one would assume its been abandoned for a few years now, so it will likely have a new look to it. A lot of these Nazgul fortresses were wrought with magic, so it could be possible to see more nasty shapes appear in towers, I don't know, but I do trust Scenario's vision for the game along with the other crew they have there. They are much more communicative, willing to listen & discuss, this past year or so than they have at any time in their past, so I'm willing to give them a lot more latitude in all avenues, as long as this new style remains.

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Isn't it more like a few months/less than a year though? Anyway, I get what you're saying and that's what I would typically expect and how I would have framed it - and, unless they specifically tell us this is supposed to be the same route to the throne room but looks mega different, with different walls used - you might as well think that way for any of the interiors in this new cluster and it will work just neatly. But given that screenshot they shared, there will be evidently instances happening outside, in a keep that appears as well-fortified as Dol Guldur itself, so you would need a standing professional army to get through not a bunch of rebel hillmen and just rangers, which... doesn't align at all, so no way around it to provide plausible explanation and make it "fit" narratively, even if just in my head. That's why it was such a terrible choice to go all out with Guldur assets and more powerful ramparts, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Bromlin

The removal of the vocation limitations is no. 1 on my wishlist for changes, so I'm absolutely delighted we'll get rid of it soon.

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You miss the main point-the removal of limitations will not fix crafting by itself. Judging by the fact that the only thing we've heard about crafting changes is the split of vocations, I tend to believe it is the main focus and selling point of the crafting update, the first part of it at least. Which, once again, will not chage the sour state of crafting.

As I've said-fix the core issue first, add fluff stuff and conveniences later.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Which isn't a definition from Tolkien world... in Tolkien, anyone associating with a name or profession of a Corsair, would be bad news, especially to the Westerners. There is no wiggle room here, unless they're just going bonkers by having all NPCs refer to me as a corsair, but then they might as well give me a playable good one-of-a-kind emancipated orc and in the same fashion no NPC would be bothered by this fact

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Y'all really getting hung up on a single word over nothing. Call the class Swashbuckler, and it can be the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Arabani

You miss the main point-the removal of limitations will not fix crafting by itself. Judging by the fact that the only thing we've heard about crafting changes is the split of vocations, I tend to believe it is the main focus and selling point of the crafting update, the first part of it at least. Which, once again, will not chage the sour state of crafting.

As I've said-fix the core issue first, add fluff stuff and conveniences later.

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I agree, fix the system then add the nice stuff after. Or be careful what we wish for. Sometimes we get what we asked for but it is not what we wanted. Many of us over the years have leveled all parts of the crafting vocations. Hopefully, we won't lose what we already have or be required to start over. Hopefully, we will still have recipes and the ability to make the useful items like food and scrolls and tokens. Changes do not always mean improving and building on what exists.

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Originally Posted by gildhur

Y'all really getting hung up on a single word over nothing. Call the class Swashbuckler, and it can be the same thing.

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I agree, if the backstory doesn't really have you doing "Corsair" things, and it's framed more like a Stout-axe was (or maybe even outright the same way, there are slavers in Umbar, maybe we might be a former slave). It's just that so many people are really convinced it'll be an outright Corsair with a change of heart, so there is that

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Originally Posted by Arabani

You miss the main point-the removal of limitations will not fix crafting by itself. Judging by the fact that the only thing we've heard about crafting changes is the split of vocations, I tend to believe it is the main focus and selling point of the crafting update, the first part of it at least. Which, once again, will not chage the sour state of crafting.

As I've said-fix the core issue first, add fluff stuff and conveniences later.

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I think your missing the point that removing the limitation of vocations to mix and match to what ever you want is only one part of the crafting revision, not the only thing, its very clear they have plans beyond just that by expanding it.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

expanding upon existing crafting systems that may have been overlooked for a long time (I’m looking at you, essences) and expanding the system for the future.

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Originally Posted by Pontin_Finnberry

I think your missing the point that removing the limitation of vocations to mix and match to what ever you want is only one part of the crafting revision, not the only thing, its very clear they have plans beyond just that by expanding it.

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It is the only specific information we have, the rest is general assurances that things will be better and crafting will be relevant. Which once again, proves my point. We'll see, I guess. It can't be worse then now in any case :)

Speaking of crating, could we please get a carpenter profession? Focused on making furniture for houses. Or at least get more furniture recipes across existing professions.

So, corsairs, by definition, make their living on ships. I see a lot of people convinced that the new class is going to be a corsair. How do you envision this class functioning for levels 1-140?

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Originally Posted by CloudCastle

So, corsairs, by definition, make their living on ships. I see a lot of people convinced that the new class is going to be a corsair. How do you envision this class functioning for levels 1-140?

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How that corsar end up in places far far from seas, like in The Moors, why he is here?

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Originally Posted by gildhur

Y'all really getting hung up on a single word over nothing. Call the class Swashbuckler, and it can be the same thing.

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agreed.