Dev Diary Feedback: The Ettenmoors

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Originally Posted by StileMajere

Reinstate time limit lockout

Turbine, you need to reinstate the lock out that prevented players from flipping from freep to creep and vice versa.

I would also like it to go both directions... ie:

If your on your Creep, you can not bring any Freep to the moors for X amount of time.
If you are on your Freep (In the moors), you can not log into any creep for X amount of time.
30 minutes to 1 hour would work.

The changes you have proposed all look interesting. However, you need to address the problem of players flipping back and forth to either spy, fightclub, or take the map back.

This mechanic used to be in effect, you should be able to put it back in place fairly easy. Please do so.

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+1 to this -- and if the devs don't want to put the lock-out timer back in, could they please explain why? :D

Overall, the changes look great, and this is coming from a freep-only player. I want giant battles and big reknown/infamy for both sides, and tons of fighting fun. These changes all seem to be encouraging lots of big battles, and medium ones too.

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Originally Posted by Tinluen

Don't worry there still may be enough hunters that play so wargs won't starve. Really didn't you see sprint and disappear now 3 min timer. A skill that blows by 50% mits and one that takes 10% off the target? This will probably stack with the other mit bypassing skills and traits wargs have so you will be hitting all the time. They are increasing creep healing 40% and giving new skills and so far you keep your increased morale and mits... is this really QQ from a warg?

My hunter is not going to stand a chance out there not that I have much of one right now. NO changes to the worthless hunter gear. Remember you and spiders were supposed to be light armor classes... that is why they buffed your morale and mits highter than my hunter now with increased damage and healing creep side we should see 6- 7k wargs instead of 9-11k wargs. BAs are medium armour should be now 7-8k like hunters but nothing is posted about a morale reduction.

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Just to point out a few things:

The increase in healing is tied to our battlefield promotions. So its 40% over 15 ranks, HOPEFULLY front loaded a bit on the early ranks (since greenies are impossible to keep healed currently). This means that only a handful of creeps game-wide (for now) are going to see the full 40%. The disparity in healing is HUGE between the sides currently, this does a good bit of fixing in that department.

As for hunters, at least wait for the freep changes before you start the QQ Rancor...

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Originally Posted by Tharadin

Other items:
1. Please fix the WL bug! Having to crash out of the game twice in the same night while the rest of your raid is effectively handicapped and burning time until it can be reformed is a major issue with the WL class. We have stopped using some auras altogether and assigned the few auras that are still used to one per fellowship.

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I noticed that not running any auras on my WL prevents myself from getting the WL bug whereas my whole raid gets bugged (The WLs) but myself, so it obviously has something to do with running a toggle skill such as Aura of Protection/Command/Mobilise.

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Originally Posted by Tinluen

My hunter is not going to stand a chance out there not that I have much of one right now. NO changes to the worthless hunter gear. Remember you and spiders were supposed to be light armor classes... that is why they buffed your morale and mits highter than my hunter now with increased damage and healing creep side we should see 6- 7k wargs instead of 9-11k wargs. BAs are medium armour should be now 7-8k like hunters but nothing is posted about a morale reduction.

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I would say wait to see freep classes changes before saying anything yet

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

You didn't read the dev diary very well. Flipping keeps/outposts/relics only to flip sides and take it again will be of zero value to anyone.

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Actually, YOU didn't read very well, there will still be bonuses, you just won't get all kinds of commendations. Unless by zero value you meant zero commendations. Keeps, outposts and relics are still on the path of success any way you look at it.

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Originally Posted by Sezneg

Just to point out a few things:

The increase in healing is tied to our battlefield promotions. So its 40% over 15 ranks, HOPEFULLY front loaded a bit on the early ranks (since greenies are impossible to keep healed currently). This means that only a handful of creeps game-wide (for now) are going to see the full 40%. The disparity in healing is HUGE between the sides currently, this does a good bit of fixing in that department.

As for hunters, at least wait for the freep changes before you start the QQ Rancor...

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Lol.. I know my dev.. we got one already group wide DF... enough said. Hunters have been a joke and looking at this and no changes to an armor set that does nothing to improve hunters. Seems like another screwing again.

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Originally Posted by kerda2000

Actually, YOU didn't read very well, there will still be bonuses, you just won't get all kinds of commendations. Unless by zero value you meant zero commendations. Keeps, outposts and relics are still on the path of success any way you look at it.

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Yes they are "the path to success" but there is no benefit now to flipping and retaking everything like there was before. In fact, you're working against yourself because when you flip to the other side after taking a bunch of keeps/outposts, your opponents will have mitigation/mastery/infamy/reknown boosts. If there will be any flipping, it will be people flipping to the side that is winning keeps/outposts, not the side that is losing them.

Love the proposed changes JWBarry! Love them. With what's proposed, imo, you've given us a new map that we've been clamoring for. Thanks for the work and detail and thought. Can't wait to play them either live or on BR. No complaints from me until I see them in action ;)

Some follow up questions:
1. You wrote "....The bonuses of Audacity are being redistributed such that ranks 1 through 6 now hold 1/3 of the maximum potency available, and ranks 7 through 14 hold the remaining 2/3." Currently, Rank 7 Audacity is -30% damage and reduced power costs. Is this to be the maximum potency level? Or are you increasing the potency for ranks 8 & above now?

2. Will the expansion need to be purchased to see the full changes in the Moors?

3. Will any mechanic be introduced for the Defilers and WLs to gain inf/comms in RoR?

4. What's actually being revised about the Defiler's skill "Fast Lob?" It's already a 1 sec reduction. Is it the addition of the curses to the mix?

5. Any chance we can see the proposed new map configuration?

Thanks again for the attention and thought on these changes!

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Originally Posted by Tangaar

I would say wait to see freep classes changes before saying anything yet

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What have hunters gotten that was decent in the last three books? We are the joke of the moors. I played BA when they were lower than dirt I switched when we became the FotM with stacking flame arrows. Hunter is quickly approaching dirt.

Thanks for trying turbine!

A few things that I would just like to put out there...

1) A lot are saying that freeps and creeps will run around flipping keeps just to flip keeps like they used to. But lets get this straight. The motives are a lot different now than what they used to be. It used to be that freeps would take all the keeps to get comms.. then creeps would take them back to get comms. This also encouraged them to flip sides (to get double the comms). However, there are no longer comms for flipping keeps. The new incentive would be to keep buffs. Yet these buffs only are perks if you are actually killing the opposition.. So running around in circles taking the keeps would be pointless. It would make more sense to stop try and stop the otherside from flipping an objective because then you would a) keep the OP/Keep and b) reap the rewards of actually having that keep by killing the freeps/creeps

2) Many are not happy about a new season of audactiy.. Which is fair enough. But you also have to look at other changes that will affect how fast you will gain the commendations necessary for max audacity. Comms from kills are already getting doubled.. to be right in line with infamy gain I would assume. You also will now have up to +100% for owning all the keeps. Then you will be able to add up to another 100% for killing delving bosses. This is on top of current buffs we have (DP buff for example). I don't forsee commendations being very hard to earn at all.. when you have the possibility of earning 300+ for a solo kill.

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Originally Posted by Prancey

Stop crying, Freeps!! You will get your changes soon too

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^This.

Also, I suspect that commendations refunds are a pipe dream. You pay more for 1-6 prior to RoR because you get to use it prior to RoR and it's more effective. You pay less after RoR because it's less effective. No question, though, the grind isn't going to be super fun.

Overall, I'm with the cautiously optimistic crowd, but of course we'll wait-and-see. I think the grouping dynamics are going to have to change, which will be interesting.

Just a few things that I'd like to be considered, either at RoR or a later update:

1) Lag/WL Bug fixed
2) Something for BAs to deal with tactical. Currently, it's a DPS/power race and we lose, a lot, especially if the other class heals itself.
3) A solution to the problem of low creep crit/dev crit mits, which usually gets worse with an expansion
4) Announcing freep changes first: Freeps have to function in PvE land as well as PvP land. Doesn't it make sense to finalize their changes and then adjust creeps accordingly? I appreciate the communication a lot, but it's frustrating to see good proposals decimated just because the freeps are drowning devs in a river of tears because they lack context for the changes. If the freep changes were announced first, the creep changes would come with better context and then maybe the balance situation would be better. Even if creeps wanted, the fact that there's a whole freep PvE community means that we'll never be able to drown them out equivalently, nor should we because their dynamic is different.

My big question, though, while a dev may still be listening:

Are the magnitude of corruptions, class and racial traits going to be scaled for level 85? This hasn't always been done in the past.

P.S. Thanks for the time/attention/dev resources. PvPers are a tough crowd.

The changes sound good imho. Thank you Turbine..thank you. I am sure I will go back to play my defiler.

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Originally Posted by UndisputedChamp

2) Many are not happy about a new season of audactiy.. Which is fair enough. But you also have to look at other changes that will affect how fast you will gain the commendations necessary for max audacity. Comms from kills are already getting doubled.. to be right in line with infamy gain I would assume. You also will now have up to +100% for owning all the keeps. Then you will be able to add up to another 100% for killing delving bosses. This is on top of current buffs we have (DP buff for example). I don't forsee commendations being very hard to earn at all.. when you have the possibility of earning 300+ for a solo kill.

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The new season of audacity is nothing and everyone knew it was coming so I don't understand the complaints now. Everyone is going to have to level their freeps to 85, grind for PvE gear, LIs, etc. This is just what happens with an expansion and a new "season". If you just started your freep/creep in the moors then 7 more ranks of audacity might sound like a lot. However, if you've been here for a while, then you'd realize you have an entire year to grind this out. Store up your comms to 10k before the update and you can have two new pieces of freep gear or a rank and a half of creep audacity. In a couple of weeks you will be maxed out and all the complaining will have been for naught.

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Originally Posted by Tinluen

What have hunters gotten that was decent in the last three books? We are the joke of the moors. I played BA when they were lower than dirt I switched when we became the FotM with stacking flame arrows. Hunter is quickly approaching dirt.

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This is NOT the place to be making complaints like this.

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Originally Posted by Sezneg

Just to point out a few things:

The increase in healing is tied to our battlefield promotions. So its 40% over 15 ranks, HOPEFULLY front loaded a bit on the early ranks (since greenies are impossible to keep healed currently). This means that only a handful of creeps game-wide (for now) are going to see the full 40%. The disparity in healing is HUGE between the sides currently, this does a good bit of fixing in that department.

As for hunters, at least wait for the freep changes before you start the QQ Rancor...

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I have no problem with the healing changes, creeps need them, but if they do this how do I compete? A BA has double my morale and they are getting increases to pen shot and movable steadfast? He pops MT and then hits steadfast we are dead... nothing can touch him that a hunter has except heartseeker with a big yellow sign and a long induction. We will be toast. Wargs getting a 3 min disappear AND sprint with other goodies. Come on we have had this discussion before haven't we? I have waited to see for three books and my hunter has swirled lower and lower in the toilet bowl. If they balance healing they must make creeps into the light, medium and heavy armor toons they were meant to be otherwise the pendulum swings far creepside. I am trying to be honest here. I am not a freep glass wearing hunter, minis are crazy op along with good wardens things need to be set in balance. I get that but my toon has been at the bottom for a long time and we are only seeing things that will push us lower.

Tydalmir

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Originally Posted by Sezneg

This is NOT the place to be making complaints like this.

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Why not, we are part of the moors too, these changes hurt my toon. You know the hunter forums are a dead zone no dev goes there. Where do I go? Suggestions would be great but for three books we have had nothing done.. creep side has complained about imbalance why can't I?

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Originally Posted by Tinluen

I have no problem with the healing changes, creeps need them, but if they do this how do I compete? A BA has double my morale and they are getting increases to pen shot and movable steadfast? He pops MT and then hits steadfast we are dead... nothing can touch him that a hunter has except heartseeker with a big yellow sign and a long induction. We will be toast. Wargs getting a 3 min disappear AND sprint with other goodies. Come on we have had this discussion before haven't we? I have waited to see for three books and my hunter has swirled lower and lower in the toilet bowl. If they balance healing they must make creeps into the light, medium and heavy armor toons they were meant to be otherwise the pendulum swings far creepside. I am trying to be honest here. I am not a freep glass wearing hunter, minis are crazy op along with good wardens things need to be set in balance. I get that but my toon has been at the bottom for a long time and we are only seeing things that will push us lower.

Tydalmir

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Yes.

So wait and see what the freep changes are, and if the hunters aren't being brought up to be on par with the top flight freep classes, make your noise on THAT thread. Yes, if your class stays as is you are fodder for the buffed creeps. But if OUR classes stay as they are on live we are fodder for the other freep classes. Ask for hunter buffs, you guys need them. But this is our feedback thread and it should be kept on topic.

The hunter argument is always about BA's moving target. BA's are your weakness. They have been for a very long time.

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Originally Posted by Tinluen

Why not, we are part of the moors too, these changes hurt my toon. You know the hunter forums are a dead zone no dev goes there. Where do I go? Suggestions would be great but for three books we have had nothing done.. creep side has complained about imbalance why can't I?

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You have to understand that this is ALL we get .

Freeps in the other hand , will have dev diary after dev diary , updates here , patches there ...

But for creeps , most probably this is it until next big update .

So drop the self centered attitude , and be patient like we've been for so many years .

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Originally Posted by Neen_Eldar

Until the opposition decides they want a DPS/infamy/renown/commendation bonus and flips them, swiflty followed by a raid leader saying 'Let's take them back' - it will be never ending..

If anything this systems encourages the flipping of Keeps & OPs, the point bonus for doing so should be kept.

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In other words they would be battling for control of these spots instead of running around looking for empty, undefended keeps to flip. Sounds like a plan.

At the beginning of the article, it says, we wanted PVP to be primary, just after that, you said people are going to get buffs from outposts, keeps, and relics. Seemed weird.

Apart from that, I don't think wargs and blackarrows are in a good place comparing them to hunters/burglars etc. And if you want to bring balance to pvp, please try to balance Crit Multipliers and Crit Ratings too, as you do to incoming healing.

Lets say you did those things, still, i fear that one guy will show up and say, "Hey Freeps, want some buff?! There you goooooooo! x500 dps!" and will ruin pvp again.

Nice try, let's hope it comes alive as it considered to be a "new beginning".

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Originally Posted by Louvre

You have to understand that this is ALL we get .

Freeps in the other hand , will have dev diary after dev diary , updates here , patches there ...

But for creeps , most probably this is it until next big update .

So drop the self centered attitude , and be patient like we've been for so many years .

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QFT!! Hunters will get their turn and MORE. This is ours.

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Originally Posted by Sezneg

Yes.

So wait and see what the freep changes are, and if the hunters aren't being brought up to be on par with the top flight freep classes, make your noise on THAT thread. Yes, if your class stays as is you are fodder for the buffed creeps. But if OUR classes stay as they are on live we are fodder for the other freep classes. Ask for hunter buffs, you guys need them. But this is our feedback thread and it should be kept on topic.

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Point taken... I want to see a better balance. I like the changes to the keeps, and I know creep side has needed this for a long time. I am just tired of the sloppy way they have done things in the past. I leaves one or two classes in the dirt while making others OP. Reavers and hunters needed the love glad to see reavers getting some. Just frustrated and losing my will to play.

Tydalmir

Troll session play > everything else.