Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Captain

Again, I think the problem here is that you've defined Support in terms of what the pre-Helm's Deep Captain class used to do. If you look at it that way, no, you will not like the changes.

If you look at Support in broader terms of "has access to abilities that help others in the fellowship", then you'll probably be satisfied with the changes.

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Originally Posted by Dylbro

Honestly I think your avoiding my entire point. I never said the captain doesn't have the same abilities they had before. What I am saying is currently on LIVE I am able to pull from a large pool of abilities in order to help the group ON THE FLY, that is a true support class, someone who can help out in any situation. Now I am predefined as DPS, Healer or Tank with a predefined set of support skills with very limited ability to adapt once a fight has begun. This is not better, it is in my opinion an extreme dumbing down of the class.

Sure, it will help out those who struggled playing the class and it will be easier for new players to pick up but for the more experienced players and the long term enjoyment of the class it is a net negative. The update set to hit LIVE next week lets me go into a fight as a predefined role that was more powerful than what is currently on live but my adaptability and versatility to match the flow of a battle is nowhere near what it used to be. That is what made the captain class unique and a true support class instead of a DPS/Healer/Tank with support abilities. Say scenario X happens during a fight but just so happens I decided to be able to support scnarios Y and Z. With the expansion I will sit there and tell the group, sorry I'm not traited to help with X so I can't help you. That is NOT at all what defined the captain class. On live I may not be as powerful at Y and Z but I wasn't gated out of helping with X. The captain is being made easier and thus weaker for more experienced players that are able to juggle 30+ skills. To put that into a little perspective, say skill sets Y and Z are now 10% more powerful but I am locked of X... I am 20% more powerful at the things I traited for but overall 30% less powerful. This is only a improvement for players that couldn't or were to lazy to utilize their entire tool belt and a very large negative to those who did.

In my opinion this update is cutting off the upper end of what a captain can become, which is done through the use of a large number of skills, in order to make it easier for new players and thus lowering its overall value in terms of what it brings to the table. I still have not seen one good argument why reducing available skills was a good thing for a support class. Why is this better? Easier does not equal better, in fact it often makes things boring and removes replayability.

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How can you conclude that it will be easier?

When we have fewer skills available to do the same tasks, then surely it's not going to be easier. Popping for example IHW+LS when group is dying is the easy solution, not the hard one. When being HoH in moors, popping SotD on the freep targeted by creep is the easy solution. When having to do more DPS in a group while in LoM or HoH, swapping to blade-brother and popping Oathies is the easy solution.
Surely the game doesn't get easier by limiting the amount of easy solutions.

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Say scenario X happens during a fight but just so happens I decided to be able to support scnarios Y and Z. With the expansion I will sit there and tell the group, sorry I'm not traited to help with X so I can't help you.

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More like "Sorry I'll be needing to press more than 1-2 skills to get us out of this situation, so I'm giving up".

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

More like "Sorry I'll be needing to press more than 1-2 skills to get us out of this situation, so I'm giving up".

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more like "ok guys let me words of courage you... and revealing mark OK MINI DPS THAT GUY SO YOU HEAL YOURSELF. dismissing her... wait he was dead already from aoe reavers nvm summoning herald! more words of courage. wait why am i in the rez circle?"

that was red traited cappy.

"words of courage! GUYS IM TRYING TO CHASE THIS REAVER DOWN TO GET MY MELEE HEALS AND BUFFS TO GO OFF DONT DIE YET! dang it ok BLUE LINE CAPSTONE!!! yay!!! though im still chasing that reaver words of courage! words of courage! #### people are still dieing... IHW/LS nope SotD? if only i had speced blue line and dumped all my points into yellow i could have gotten it but then my heals would be ####e. man these tough choices are hard! really hard in an ever changing COMBAT environment. *hits retreat. gets yelled at for not specing the cappy version of glory champ*"

there we go. back to MoM where yellow line was the best support line for captains *slow clap*

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Originally Posted by furtim

Again, I think the problem here is that you've defined Support in terms of what the pre-Helm's Deep Captain class used to do. If you look at it that way, no, you will not like the changes.

If you look at Support in broader terms of "has access to abilities that help others in the fellowship", then you'll probably be satisfied with the changes.

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Sure, redefine what you enjoy and something different is going to be better!

All you have to do is completely change your mind :)

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Originally Posted by blkplg13

more like "ok guys let me words of courage you... and revealing mark OK MINI DPS THAT GUY SO YOU HEAL YOURSELF. dismissing her... wait he was dead already from aoe reavers nvm summoning herald! more words of courage. wait why am i in the rez circle?"

that was red traited cappy.

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Ah yes, when Captains trait as Dylbro described "I decided to be able to support scnarios Y and Z", surely that implies that only WoC is available. If you max out LtC you're going full DPS, so expecting to do much else but DPS in such a trait setup is missing the point of specialization. If you don't max LtC you'll have points left over for Gallant Display or IHW to aid with survivability.

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Originally Posted by blkplg13

"words of courage! GUYS IM TRYING TO CHASE THIS REAVER DOWN TO GET MY MELEE HEALS AND BUFFS TO GO OFF DONT DIE YET! dang it ok BLUE LINE CAPSTONE!!! yay!!! though im still chasing that reaver words of courage! words of courage! #### people are still dieing... IHW/LS nope SotD? if only i had speced blue line and dumped all my points into yellow i could have gotten it but then my heals would be ####e. man these tough choices are hard! really hard in an ever changing COMBAT environment. *hits retreat. gets yelled at for not specing the cappy version of glory champ*"

there we go. back to MoM where yellow line was the best support line for captains *slow clap*

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If you're HoH in moors as I think you tried to describe, you'll have Inspire, Gallant Display, Valiant Strike, Standard, WoC, Rallying Cry and reform the Lines available and even IHW if you trait so. To Arms and Song-brothers Call will be there to improve upon the forementioned skills. Surely WoC will be a part of your healing rotation, but there's still several other skills to the mix.

Also, speculating in PvMP is completely useless until there's been some post-launch balancing.

The problem with the term "support" when compared to "healing", "DPS", or "tank" is that support generally becomes a skills inventory while the others remain abstract, yet we want to say it's a 4th role.

So, abstractly speaking, whar is support?

And describe it WITHOUT mentioning a single skill.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

So, abstractly speaking, whar is support?

And describe it WITHOUT mentioning a single skill.

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Support is flexibility to do a variety of roles at a moment's notice. In the same fight a support class may heal or damage or tank or rowd control or protect. Another part of "support" is to make other classes perform better; that often means buffing but it also means debuffing the enemies or assisting in their roles (helping make the main healer's job less stressful, off-tanking to assist the main tank, improving a damage class's output). Basically it doesn't fit into a particular role, while having parts of all the roles.

Consider a business. You usually have major roles, like research, development, manufacturing, and sales. But you also get a lot of miscellaneous "support" roles that don't directly fit into a revenue generating role; human resources, payroll, computer services, customer support, and so on. You also get some people who cross between roles, the "tiger teams" who are working with development and manufacturing at the same time, hopping around to put out fires wherever they pop up. A captain or lore master as a support class fits into both of those categories.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

Support is flexibility to do a variety of roles at a moment's notice. In the same fight a support class may heal or damage or tank or rowd control or protect. Another part of "support" is to make other classes perform better; that often means buffing but it also means debuffing the enemies or assisting in their roles (helping make the main healer's job less stressful, off-tanking to assist the main tank, improving a damage class's output). Basically it doesn't fit into a particular role, while having parts of all the roles.

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Let's adapt this to the HD captain.

If you take the LtC spec, spend only 35 points in the reds, putting the focus on buffs, crit, mastery, and bleeds (in that order), then spend the remainder of the points getting missing skills, then buffing healing, how is that not accomplishing your definition of support?

And im done with the thread. HD is here monday there is nothing really left to talk about. the HD captain will play/be compleatly different then pHD captain and will definitely take some getting used to. now all beta and the forums have done to me in the past month is get me sick to the stomach and so pissed at some people i automatically disregard everything they say even if they are somewhat correct. i have the sense that some captains have not liked their class and only played it to fill a hole in a kinship. anyways good luck all you captains. i hope we continue to push into mordor.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Um... if we were supposed to be a buffing class, why don't we have a buff rotation in comvat that isn't measured in minutes?

It's cause we are a class.that buffs, not buffers. For an example of what a buffer is, go play a harmony mini.

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From the LotrO class description for Captain:

Captains roar hope into the hearts of their allies; they are armoured melee fighters who stand at the front of battle. With their variety of support skills and ability to summon a Herald (or combat companion) Captains are formidable opponents. Fighting solo or grouped, Captains use buff skills: abilities that enhance allies in the moment and over longer durations of time. When grouped, specifically, Captains support allies with healing and buffs, and deal respectable damage.

No other class description has the word 'buff' in it.

I have a LV85 harmony minstrel.

Tactics buffs used to last 30 minutes. IDoME used to be able to be cast on non-grouped players. You have played a Captain for quite some time so you know all this already.

If you do not care about the ability to buff other players not in your group that's fine. That is the subject of my post and of my dissatisfaction, not semantics over what exactly is the 'buffing' class or how long the 'buffs' last.

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Originally Posted by Dunford

From the LotrO class description for Captain:

Captains roar hope into the hearts of their allies; they are armoured melee fighters who stand at the front of battle. With their variety of support skills and ability to summon a Herald (or combat companion) Captains are formidable opponents. Fighting solo or grouped, Captains use buff skills: abilities that enhance allies in the moment and over longer durations of time. When grouped, specifically, Captains support allies with healing and buffs, and deal respectable damage.

No other class description has the word 'buff' in it.

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Those are also very old, as in "they haven't been updated since SoA" old.

And yet, that's still very much a description of the HD captain.

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Originally Posted by Dunford

Tactics buffs used to last 30 minutes. IDoME used to be able to be cast on non-grouped players. You have played a Captain for quite some time so you know all this already.

If you do not care about the ability to buff other players not in your group that's fine. That is the subject of my post and of my dissatisfaction, not semantics over what exactly is the 'buffing' class or how long the 'buffs' last.

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IDoME's been a toggle for a good while now (I think that got changed in RoI).

As far as the tactics, I imagine part of that change was relating to the death of the buff stick, while another part may be balancing out mounted combat, as the captain has a huge advantage with their out of combat buffs there that the other classes do not (it's why we crit like no other). That also helps make a stronger division between mounted and dismounted combat.

As far as the out of combat buffs go, I'm meh on it. Yes, it sucks that you are now a bit more restricted with who gets the buffs. However, you aren't holding up a raid for five minutes after a wipe while the raid gets rebuffed. That may be another reason why they forced this change, cause that would help reduce the downtime in raids.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Those are also very old, as in "they haven't been updated since SoA" old.

And yet, that's still very much a description of the HD captain.



IDoME's been a toggle for a good while now (I think that got changed in RoI).

As far as the tactics, I imagine part of that change was relating to the death of the buff stick, while another part may be balancing out mounted combat, as the captain has a huge advantage with their out of combat buffs there that the other classes do not (it's why we crit like no other). That also helps make a stronger division between mounted and dismounted combat.

As far as the out of combat buffs go, I'm meh on it. Yes, it sucks that you are now a bit more restricted with who gets the buffs. However, you aren't holding up a raid for five minutes after a wipe while the raid gets rebuffed. That may be another reason why they forced this change, cause that would help reduce the downtime in raids.

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I can't find the post anymore as Beta forum seems to be gone (?), but RockX made the changes to buffs because he thinks Captain buffing should be a part of active play rather than the out-of-combat buffing phase.
I can easily see the issues that follow when you don't have long duration buffs, but in the big picture I agree that buffs should come from active play and not just something you pop once every 30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

As far as the out of combat buffs go, I'm meh on it. Yes, it sucks that you are now a bit more restricted with who gets the buffs. However, you aren't holding up a raid for five minutes after a wipe while the raid gets rebuffed. That may be another reason why they forced this change, cause that would help reduce the downtime in raids.

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remind me again about the new raid with HD and how long it took to buff a fellowship while people ate and went over what went wrong with the last pull

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Those are also very old, as in "they haven't been updated since SoA" old.

And yet, that's still very much a description of the HD captain.



IDoME's been a toggle for a good while now (I think that got changed in RoI).

As far as the tactics, I imagine part of that change was relating to the death of the buff stick, while another part may be balancing out mounted combat, as the captain has a huge advantage with their out of combat buffs there that the other classes do not (it's why we crit like no other). That also helps make a stronger division between mounted and dismounted combat.

As far as the out of combat buffs go, I'm meh on it. Yes, it sucks that you are now a bit more restricted with who gets the buffs. However, you aren't holding up a raid for five minutes after a wipe while the raid gets rebuffed. That may be another reason why they forced this change, cause that would help reduce the downtime in raids.

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Yep, I agree with the assessment of WHY it was changed. My post was mostly to point out what the Captain class was when I selected it and created my Captain. With most changes there are good and bad aspects and some will like them and some won't. Sometimes when you flip the coin you get heads. For me, this change was a tails. I'm not rage quitting but it is very likely I will focus on my other characters now which I feel is a shame, but this revision is going to happen so we just take what is offered and go with it.

Honestly? Wait until Monday.

The hardest part of Captain soloing, since we're naturally tough, is struggling with low DPS. The upcoming revamp will improve a lot of things in that regard.

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Originally Posted by LegolasArchersKingdom

I since now, had problems with my cappy soloing, I have only been able to lvl up fast

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Bleh, not the reason to play. Enjoy the journey. Captain was one of the most fun for me to play, not because it's a champion wannabe, but because it is very durable, flexible, and fun.

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Originally Posted by LegolasArchersKingdom

I since now, had problems with my cappy soloing, I have only been able to lvl up fast with a large fellowship or doing book quests which are sometimes hard as they are above my level. All of this because my cappy's hits dont deal a lot of damage, they are slow, and meanwhile mobs take me damage so yeah, I basically end pwned.

This didnt happen with my other characters.

I would love if I could have help, any suggestions?

Thanks.

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lvl 40 sucks as a cappy. the mobs get really tough while your dps does not jump till moria. get your legendary quests done idom/oathies + healing mark + good 2 hander helped me a lot in that area.

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Originally Posted by furtim

Honestly? Wait until Monday.

The hardest part of Captain soloing, since we're naturally tough, is struggling with low DPS. The upcoming revamp will improve a lot of things in that regard.

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at lv 40 the issues will be the same. not a lot of points/class traits to choose from. the new trick will be learning a new system after you struggled 40 lvls with a completely different system.

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Originally Posted by blkplg13

lvl 40 sucks as a cappy. the mobs get really tough while your dps does not jump till moria. get your legendary quests done idom/oathies + healing mark + good 2 hander helped me a lot in that area.

at lv 40 the issues will be the same. not a lot of points/class traits to choose from. the new trick will be learning a new system after you struggled 40 lvls with a completely different system.

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Pre-HD lvl 40 Captains don't have Valiant Strike or Shadows Lament, they will with HD. That by itself should give a good bit of burst damage or healing. After applying 5 or 10 points while LtC specialized, Shadows Lament also opens up Battle-ready which allows you to have another go with PA or DB + BoE every once in a while for even more DPS.
RC cooldown has been lowered a lot, which while no difference or even a nerf to 85 Captains is a rather big boost to lvl 40 Captains when it comes to healing.
Also, I'm fairly sure Blade-brother will be available a lot earlier than lvl ~70 where it is now, which again should give a boost to DPS.
You get access to +5% crit on DB/PA a lot earlier than before (we have a +crit rating to PA/DB trait on Live), which again boosts DPS.
Routing Cry does rather nice damage pre-lvl50 (at least on Live), and the now much lower cooldown in Helms Deep should allow for a boost to DPS.

I did not test <85 on Captain in Beta, but I'd be very surprised if they didn't experience at least some boost to DPS.

One of the big changes that improves the feel of the class at every level is the adjustments made to cooldowns and animations. Combat will simply feel faster, and you don't need to be level-capped for that.

The other hugely transformative change for solo DPS is getting Shadow's Lament, oh, 54 levels earlier than before. The set bonus that makes SL grant Battle-Ready is the T1 set bonus, so you'll get it somewhere in levels 15-20. We used to have to wait until our LtC capstone for that effect.

On top of that, the red line's personal DPS boosts are mostly front-loaded within the first three or four tiers. Tier 5 has a bleed trait, power cost trait, and herald damage trait. Tier 6 has a Grave Wound trait and the Fellowship-Brother effect. Tier 7 has Oathbreakers. Other than the herald trait, none of those are particularly significant. All the traits that affect Crit Chance, Crit Magnitude, and overall damage output are loaded into the first four tiers.

I get that you hate the changes for various reasons, but you're seriously stretching this time.

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Also, I'm fairly sure Blade-brother will be available a lot earlier than lvl ~70 where it is now, which again should give a boost to DPS.

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Level 6. It's part of the specialisation. The set bonus that causes it to apply to the Captain is available around 20-25 points, which you should easily be able to get by Moria if you're doing class deeds along the way.

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Originally Posted by furtim

One of the big changes that improves the feel of the class at every level is the adjustments made to cooldowns and animations. Combat will simply feel faster, and you don't need to be level-capped for that.

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We did lose War-Cry though, so I'm not sure low-level Captains will experience this effect in a positive way (until they trait for Routing Cry -% AD ofc). That, and the later introduction of Oathies is the only disadvantages I see with the HD changes for low-level Captains.

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Originally Posted by furtim

Level 6. It's part of the specialisation. The set bonus that causes it to apply to the Captain is available around 20-25 points, which you should easily be able to get by Moria if you're doing class deeds along the way.

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Fair enough, it's the set bonus that makes Blade-brother interesting though :)

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Originally Posted by furtim

One of the big changes that improves the feel of the class at every level is the adjustments made to cooldowns and animations. Combat will simply feel faster, and you don't need to be level-capped for that.

The other hugely transformative change for solo DPS is getting Shadow's Lament, oh, 54 levels earlier than before. The set bonus that makes SL grant Battle-Ready is the T1 set bonus, so you'll get it somewhere in levels 15-20. We used to have to wait until our LtC capstone for that effect.

On top of that, the red line's personal DPS boosts are mostly front-loaded within the first three or four tiers. Tier 5 has a bleed trait, power cost trait, and herald damage trait. Tier 6 has a Grave Wound trait and the Fellowship-Brother effect. Tier 7 has Oathbreakers. Other than the herald trait, none of those are particularly significant. All the traits that affect Crit Chance, Crit Magnitude, and overall damage output are loaded into the first four tiers.

I get that you hate the changes for various reasons, but you're seriously stretching this time.

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we will see. im again very skeptical exactly how many points you will have at lvl 40 to be able to have survivability as well as dps. im not saying the dps is the same as live. (our burst is so awesome now).

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Originally Posted by blkplg13

we will see. im again very skeptical exactly how many points you will have at lvl 40 to be able to have survivability as well as dps. im not saying the dps is the same as live. (our burst is so awesome now).

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Well, at lvl 40 you should have 17 from levels alone and likely a couple of points from class deeds, so I'd guess 18-20 points at lvl 40.
That should be enough for +5% crit on DB/PA, Telling Mark, Time of Need, -15% AD on Routing and perhaps even some points into Melee Crit Chance.
As for survival I don't see what you're on about, Captains have always been quite sturdy when it comes to soloing and with 15s RC I can only imagine survivability will go up even in LtC.

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Originally Posted by blkplg13

im again very skeptical exactly how many points you will have at lvl 40 to be able to have survivability as well as dps.

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The only trait we can buy on Live that increases survivability is Strength from Within. Rallying Cry no longer needs a defeat event, so it fills essentially the same role as that trait did, on the same cooldown duration. So we'll at the very least not be worse off.

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Originally Posted by furtim

The only trait we can buy on Live that increases survivability is Strength from Within. Rallying Cry no longer needs a defeat event, so it fills essentially the same role as that trait did, on the same cooldown duration. So we'll at the very least not be worse off.

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Let alone the herald DPS increased exponentially, as did their durability, so we now have no reason not to have the Inspire self heal when deep in the reds.

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Originally Posted by furtim

. Rallying Cry no longer needs a defeat event, so it fills essentially the same role as that trait did, on the same cooldown duration. So we'll at the very least not be worse off.

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Maybe it was just me, but I kinda liked 6 sec Rallying Cry. Having it upped to 15 sec minimum seems worse off to me.

I wasn't happy with the changes. I PvP, and it just seemed...well, not fun anymore. I loved the challenge 1v1 on my captain, and that's pretty much going to be gone.

Also, I rather enjoyed buffing, that's what my class was, a "buffer". Of all the ideas I read in the revamp thread, I never saw one that said.."Get rid of our buffs." So I don't really understand why they asked for our opinion.