Rings of Power

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Originally Posted by Celebrawn

Lol, that's like saying just because there have been ten murders on this subway in the last week, you shoudl still ride it to see how safe it is when nobody is gettign murdered.

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No it's not, but you already know that. Allowing others to form opinions for you and potentially give you uneven information when you have the opportunity to come to your own conclusions based on the actual material is far removed from your analogy. You can come up with whatever justification you want and you aren't forced to watch anything you don't think you'll enjoy, but you're not forming an opinion on the show in that case. You have no idea how you would feel watching the show without whatever biases the breakdowns you are watching may have, what feelings either positive or negative may have been evoked no matter what commentary you may read or watch.

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Originally Posted by Celebrawn

Lol, that's like saying just because there have been ten murders on this subway in the last week, you should still ride it to see how safe it is when nobody is getting murdered.

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Horrible analogy. Just wrong, in so many ways. But, not surprising.

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Originally Posted by Trobon

Well I don’t think my review will help...

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Elrond and Durin: For me--they are the beating heart of the show. I love their scenes together. Khazad-dûm looks amazing.

Galadriel: I see what they are trying to do. I wish we had more contrast. In her moments of kindness, we can see the Galadriel we know she will become (when she first sees Elrond and they exchange greetings, her conversation with Isildur when she didn't realize who he actually was, her time with Theon etc). It's there, but so is her drive to rid Middle Earth of the evil that killed her brother and sometimes it gets a bit too much.

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Originally Posted by Brunonono

As a lover of Tolkien's lore and a deep reader of the text, I'm loving the show. And I refuse to let anyone spoil my enjoyment of it. Believe me, they have tried. :)

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This right here.

Good for you. I too am really enjoying the show for what it is. I haven't gone looking for reviews or youtube clips and reactions, because, yeah, kinda know what's out there without looking. Unfortunately, we live in a world of opinion and influence now and reviews are more about shock value and money making. Opinions in this thread interest me, purely because I find them entertaining. Anyone who plays this game should be well versed and used to lore breakage and a bit of sensationalism for the sake of it and it shouldn't be taking anyone by surprise.

Its a TV show, not a film, not a book, and not a game either. Each will have it's own kind of adaptations to make the fit, and each one works for it's purpose. All but the book will deviate to the audience and yeah, its not always going to make everyone happy. That's pretty much how different forms of entertainment work.

The show has it's out of place things for sure, and I sometimes scratch my head while watching it, but no more than I do when I see hobbits calling lightning from the sky in game. It doesn't get any more lore breaking than that. If anyone can manage that in game, nothing in the show should be surprising, or worrying them.

I'll take a group of beings surviving a volcano, or Legolas single-handedly obliterating an orc invasion of Laketown over magic hobbits any day of the week, and if and when any of it gets too much, Ill dig out the PJs, curl up with some hot chocolate and . . . open the book.

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Originally Posted by Trobon

So I'm definitely a huge fan. I'm not, however, a person who feels overly critical about things which go against the lore. To me something set in Middle Earth can take liberties and I will judge it based on the liberties it took and whether I think it enhances the story it tries to tell.

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The only real use they have for lore in that show is to throw as the occasional Easter egg as name-dropping, so nothing solid but just making Tolkien noises. Otherwise they're just stealing bits of the LOTR movies and using them as callbacks or repurposing them, be that characters (like Nori and Poppy as what's obviously a gender-swapped Frodo and Sam duo, Halbrand as knock-off Aragorn), dialogue (direct quotes lifted straight from LOTR), situations (like having the Balrog already awake in the Second Age, roughly five millennia early) and whole scenes (e.g. LOTR has a cavalry charge so of course RoP has to have one too, and the Numenoreans are now a 'horsey' Rohirrim knockoff even though that makes no sense at all for an isolated island nation).This is all so cynical and shameless I defy you to explain how it 'enhances' the show, it's just ripping off better productions for nostalgia bait.

Likewise with how time and distance are annihilated in a way that makes it clear they haven't sketched out a real timeline, stuff just happens when their plot needs it to happen. That's lazy and again, how does that enhance anything? It just makes Middle-earth feel small.

As for the characters - how anyone can enjoy the scowling Mary Sue / Karen hybrid that's the show's Galadriel is beyond me; as she had glaring faults from the very first episode. She has so much plot armour that nothing is any threat to her, and she can behave appallingly and still get what she wants (like the help of the Numenoreans). None of that makes for a likeable or believable character, she's the stereotypical modern 'strong female character' who's supposed to be just that awesome and the show keeps right on trying to push that, to an absurd degree. And that's the show's main character, now shown to be a would-be genocidal monster with her little "I'm going to kill all your children but keep you alive just long enough to see it" rant to Adar in last week's episode. By that token they've shown her to be evil and things like that don't magically go away, it'd all still be sloshing around inside her head.

The latest thing is she just stood in the path of a volcanic eruption which smashed buildings all around her and set a bunch of stuff on fire and yet came out of it without so much as a scratch, just a bit dusty and with her hair mussed. And the best you've managed to say adds up to no more than a vague hope on your part that she won't be quite so horrible a character now.

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Finally, we have the Harfoots. This is a divisive one, but I like them a lot.

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I think this illustrates the problem with everything you've said, given the way you seem to be blithely ignoring the obvious problems with how they're written: they go on about how much they supposedly care for each other while not just leaving people behind on purpose but even talking about taking the wheels off their carts as well. They're like a little death cult, complete with their own ritual reading of their very own 'Book of the Names of the Dead'. "Nobody goes off trail, and nobody walks alone" chants Sadoc - except when they do force people to walk alone and die. They have a completely dysfunctional society where each little family unit is evidently on its own and the others *do not help* even when someone's hurt (or old, or sick, by implication - and what about when someone's pregnant?). And you've seemingly missed this glaring flaw: it would not work, it's not a viable survival strategy: genuine empathy and helping each other is vital in any society, especially a nomadic one; pull-your-own-cart-all-by-yourselves-or-die would be a recipe for the slow death of the whole group. And that's why I call it a death cult, it's set up as if they do all want to die. There is no innocence in that, it's horrible and it showcases just how bad this show's writing is that they think this will be engaging.

(And the Harfoots are already too few to avoid becoming ever more inbred - hey would be already - so that's just the icing on the cake...)

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As for aspects where I have to suspend my disbelief. That doesn't really bother me all that much. I am fine with Galadriel living the volcano. I am fine with her living as long as she did swimming. I don't think that's turning your brain off as much as it is allowing for mythological storytelling to overcome reality. Everyone has a different level on how far they can or will suspend their disbelief for that, but mine hasn't been broken yet.

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That's not mythological storytelling so much as there simply being no stakes as far as Galadriel goes. Absolutely no real threat or consequence to her for anything she does or says, By the sound of it your disbelief isn't so much suspended as nailed immovably to the ceiling.

Thanks, Trobon! Yes, this is something I had in mind and with extreme sadness I must say this is the first such honest more wholesome take I've seen, where you actually put in an effort to say why some of these things appeal to you but you also note, in a reasonable manner, the show is certainly far from what's usually expected since you don't feel like you would be able to come up with any (reasonable) explanation for some of these things (which is not in line with what almost everyone seems to be doing: trying to praise the show where it doesn't deserve it, including take on lore and saying some of these things are in line with it, and acting like it's the greatest fantasy on tv ever).

Visuals are certainly not cheap but that came with the money - WETA and the territory - and even then you could argue because there are moments that evoke "so how is that not money laundering?" response (in the most expensive show in tv history). Sure, there was Numenor (and even then people pointed out they were copy-pasting the same people multiple times in the crowds! which is like super off lol), but with other "lived in" locales it went like this: 5 second vistas and then just constrained interiors. So that's something that leaves me vastly unimpressed if compared with rich scenography and wide lived-in scenes and spaces from concurrent House of the Dragon or... even the Hobbit and its opening scene with Dale and Erebor. Not to mention Shire, Laketown and the vast halls of Erebor as portrayed later on, with more detail.

Well, the innocence you mention about some visual contrast is certainly a "theme" thing but all such themes are largely meaningless to me if they aren't really bound by storytelling in a better, meaningful way. There is no doubt there are some skilled, artfully oriented individuals who worked on this and gave it their own spin (and they had WETA involved, so of course there were) but in general I would say all these talents were wasted because people at the helm just can't do their job and convey/make it work with actual storytelling.

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Originally Posted by Trobon

I think where the plot fails, the tone and themes of the show still shine through. I will try to avoid the "Tolkien anecdotes" and small background pieces you talked about above. While some of those definitely add to the tone, there is more than just that for me. The themes of the show resonate with me as Middle-Earth themes. The Harfoots have a theme of innocence trying to make their way through a dangerous world, keeping to their own ways and traditions to stay safe, but being thrust into a bigger world than theirs and into the danger they have for so long avoided. It handles these themes differently from the Hobbits of the Shire, but in a way that fits the world to me. Galadriel's story showcases themes of Elvish pride and ancient oaths leading to the downfall of heroes and entire peoples in ways that can never match the Simarillion, but still feel right in the world. The dwarves play into the themes of ambition and tradition and how those aspects of society can clash violently with one another and looks to play further into ambition leading to downfall in the future. While at times the plot has been nonsensical and the dialogue has had its ups and downs the tone and theme of the show has consistently felt like Middle-Earth to me and resonates with me on the same wavelength as the books have. While other things can feel like a story with a Middle-Earth veneer, ignoring what the showrunners want to, the theme and tone of the show bring it back and make it a Middle-Earth show again for me. And I hope that wasn't too vague. I know its a bit subjective, but I think there were enough examples to showcase my thoughts.

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So what you're saying here - I get all of these but these things should be one with the story that's being told, not just out there is a vacuum while the story is contradicting itself all the time. Sometimes the themes don't even match what's being told. In theory, I get it how one can still appreciate themes, but in practice and for all purposes of what constitutes a storytelling: if the plot fails, the themes become meaningless as far as quality can be ascertained. (and it's not some kind of artistic, philosophical, allegorical storytelling, think Green Knight, where weirdness and defiance of logic is to be expected where you gotta find the appeal and meaning. No, it IS something that you're supposed to take as usual and care about the plot in a way that it is shown, no hidden meanings here).

So that's why themes don't really absolve the rest and simply can't salvage the rest. So like, they can't just take a theme or a "familiar Middle-earth substance" and put it into completely different, original material they're telling in Second Age (...by ignoring what actually happened in Second Age) and frame it as a coherent, believable story because it just doesn't work. It's just bad storytelling that makes all these themes come across as shallow and unenjoyable as soon as you really try to dive into them, and... it's largely intertwined with another even more terrible thing here...

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Originally Posted by Trobon

I think it’s a fine part to suspend my disbelief but I don’t think I could put myself in her shoes other than the possibility she went a tad bit insane when faced with the decision to go to Valinor, but even that would be a post-hoc excuse on my part more than anything I think the writers intended.

I can readily agree that there are certain character choices which are made that do not make sense. However, for the most part I think the characters feel authentic in most situations and the arcs that they are currently in the middle of have kept me engaged and invested in them. One of the big divisive points is Galadriel, and I have had journey in my feelings for her character. I enjoyed her in the first two episodes, but she quickly left me wanting for more. I thought her impetuousness got old fast and hoped that it was a starting point for her to grow. In the latest episode especially I think that hope is coming to fruition as I have seen her start to come to terms with her faults and how destructive they are. Her chiding Theo about his hatred of the Orcs was viewed by some to be hypocrisy and I think to an extent it was, but at the same time I think she knows how much pain her own hate is causing her and those around her and she doesn't want that for herself or others.

Part of this is sold, in my opinion, by the acting of almost the whole cast. Galadriel's actress has had it the hardest because her character was so limited for so long, but in the past two episodes I've seen a bit of subtlety which sells her changes. At the end of episode 6 when she looks at the cloud of Doom coming at her you see her breaking. She looks resigned to the idea of dying and seems to realize that no matter how hard she fights she can't stop terrible things on her own. In this last episode there were times when she was talking to Theo where it seemed to me to show on her face that she was feeling pain over how much hate she has internalized.

Of course, the rest of the cast is mostly great as well. Adar and Durin IV's actors are definite stand outs, but Elrond, Durin III, Elendil, Halbrand, Disa, Stranger, and Nori all are very good bringing the emotion of their characters out. Adar brings a whole new realm to the Tolkien world, showing an elf who had been captured and broken in a way we never got to see elsewhere and in my opinion enhances the lore of the world in a way I discussed before. The dwarf cast play up on dwarf society and just how strong of emotions they feel in a way the movies never were able to. I feel Durin's friendship with Elrond more deeply than I ever did Gimili's with Legolas in the movies and while I understand some feel it hasn't been "earned" I think there's only so much you can do in a visual medium without focusing all your attention on the pair and it doesn't feel unnatural either. I don't feel its any more or less "earned" that Gimli and Legolas.

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Some of the cast you mentioned are indeed the highlight of the show but even then, sadly, they're involved in these silly, needless plots and extended "mystery boxes" that are no mysteries, and this largely distracts from the overall experience and - in case of Durin/Elrond - makes some of their friendship dilemmas look contrived, unreal, unreasonable and over-the-top. Still, the worst is they're all infected... and all plots and sometimes entire characterization are infected (looking at you Galadriel) because they are constructed around "the message" - or at least what Hollywood these days thinks passes for a modern social message. You can't view these characters without it because it's just so much in your face. That is a sole reason why Galadriel doesn't have Celeborn and their daughter anywhere near her (independent strong woman can't have!), this is why she acts the way she does because they've overdone this shallow trope, this is why the two women need to meet in a contest of arrogance that lasts something like two episodes and finally go to war together based on contrivance and nothing more, this is why Numenor and its internal struggle are nothing like in the works of Tolkien whereas there is no good reason why they couldn't have been (it's the trump rally with "they'll take our jobs!" instead), call backs to PJ scenes shoehorned in everywhere is why some of these scenes exist in the first place (like the Harfoots "mourning" festivities and dialogues mirroring Bilbo's Birthday's party even though the two plots and moods had nothing in common, or like my favorite from the newest episode!), this is why there is no uniqueness to it (everything seems equally diverse for ethnicities other than Lindon and, for the most part, Khazad-dum), this is why Halbrand is this show's version of Aragorn that wasn't needed (but also a mystery box because he is most likely Sauron!), this is why there is a reoccurring theme and situations with characters screaming "Isildur!" very reminiscent of Elrond from PJ and overall Isildur being such a jerk from the start, this is why Numenoreans need to do a rescue cavalry in far away land even though it makes little sense for them to care about 100 orcs and 50 villagers, this is why the defenders need a mini Helm's Deep with orcs approaching in a column of flaming torches even though it doesn't contribute to anything and they abandon it, and so on and so on... these things happen very frequently and are very easy to pick up on, and whatever is not these things and trying to follow up on nonsensical plot that was created as a result of these... it's usually the mystery box characters and mystery box mysteries where answers are unsatisfying/unimportant because they immediately proceed to the next mystery and try to follow up on nonsensical plot that was created as a result of the previous one.

There is hardly anything here that can be viewed as original and commitment to a decent script that was written with a coherent story in mind, it's all messages and shallow character statements. Plot is being made to work with such ideas (to the point where plot needs to defy laws of physics), not characters and plot actually contributing to Tolkien's plot and ideas, not to mention common sense. So sorry, just can't dissociate from all that when it's all over the place and so obvious why it's done the way it was done, I find it literally impossible and the way it's done seems like a disgrace to everything that's good in what's actually hidden behind a word "story"

Btw, I enjoyed Shadow of Mordor too. But there is a difference between that and RoP. Anything that came out of SoM (though I haven't played Shadow of War yet), even if part of weird storyline, was kind of cool to see. Like the entire story of Celebrimbor and Sauron, very lore-accurate and well embedded in the lore with evil Annatar look and all that, these cinematics were pretty nice. But above all else... it's a fun parkour game with VERY innovative ideas and mechanics and pretty nice combat, some of the lore text flavors about Mordor's history were very immersive and lore-accurate to my surprise (despite the nonsense of the main plot) which can't be said about RoP. RoP's main appeal as a tv series must and should have been the plot because it's not a game - but sometimes I get the feeling it was written as if it was just a silly game with mobs and bosses to slay... and that's exactly the problem

Hmm, from characters, the only one I could genuinely appreciate 95% was Adar - because his story lines up with some nice lore bits and premises, without altering too much, and on top of that he is untouched by "the message" writing and characterization. He seems like he is the most natural character. Granted, there was a silly McGuffin he was looking for and a vastly, unimpressive, contrived way he (and not Sauron! lol) created Mordor, and Adar himself WAS a mystery box (they even left him blurred at the end of the episode titled Adar! lol) but at least the answer of who he was seemed to be delivered and reasonable, also seemed like he was one of the major factors behind the plot, however weirdly it turned out, so at least one thing that was consistent from start to finish... but overall, he was like a highlight of this, and it tells you something when the biggest highlight is the bad guy who appears from time to time with his orcs... and seems far more sympathetic and reasonable than the main heroine threatening him with tortures and genocide of his kind.


Oh, music is very nice, I think. That's the best part of the show for me. Not in a "I love it!" sort of way but it's really nice and I like it. Once I'm dissociated enough from what I've seen, sometimes I play this music and it really evokes the feel of what might have been. For example, I really like the Galadriel theme... except it doesn't work AT ALL with what is shown on screen (the dissonance is complete and obsolute!) and this makes me almost certain McCreary had no idea what this plot/characterization was gonna be exactly when he composed this piece. LOL. (and possibly many others too, but that's good, because music could be salvaged and is evocative of this romantic imaginative great series that could have been).

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Likewise with how time and distance are annihilated in a way that makes it clear they haven't sketched out a real timeline, stuff just happens when their plot needs it to happen. That's lazy and again, how does that enhance anything? It just makes Middle-earth feel small.

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I was surprised to see Harfoots back in Greenwood again from their trip to the Marshes and East :D

If someone would sketch their exact path based on movements of these maps and where they previously said they were going it would look... quite insane, back and forth all the time... No surprise the teleporting 'mystics' couldn't just teleport to the Stranger right away, with Harfoots movements glitching out like that

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Originally Posted by Arnenna

Its a TV show, not a film, not a book, and not a game either. Each will have it's own kind of adaptations to make the fit, and each one works for it's purpose.

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Making a distinction between movies and a TV series is somewhat arbitrary - if anything a TV series, where even a mini-series would be longer than a movie, would give more opportunity to explore things in a thoughtful way as there's more time to play with for, say, character development. Instead RoP's show-runners just pad out the runtime of each episode with a lot of pointless guff that doesn't contribute anything meaningful. We might not expect production values to be so high for a TV series but that's no excuse for poor writing.

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The show has it's out of place things for sure, and I sometimes scratch my head while watching it, but no more than I do when I see hobbits calling lightning from the sky in game. It doesn't get any more lore breaking than that.

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Telling that you've picked something that's only just been added to the game and that caught flak itself. And using a game as a yardstick to measure a TV series against - really? When would anyone normally do that? And you already said a game is a different beast to a TV series.

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I'll take a group of beings surviving a volcano, or Legolas single-handedly obliterating an orc invasion of Laketown over magic hobbits any day of the week

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This seems to be completely arbitrary. So magic hobbits *in a game* are somehow worse than suspending physical realism *in a TV series* for no good reason, and in a way Tolkien himself didn't do? Morgoth used volcanic eruptions as a weapon against the High Elves at the start of the Battle of Sudden Flame and killed a great many of them. 'Many charred bones had there their roofless grave', we're told (Sil ch. 18, 'Of the Ruin of Beleriand'), and how all the plain of Ard-galen became the Anfauglith, '...a burned and desolate waste, full of a choking dust, barren and lifeless.' So we have an example *in the fiction* of many High Elves being wiped out by the exact same force of nature that somehow can't put so much as a mark on one in the show. That's RoP all over, it's mindless and that's the absolute worst thing to do to Tolkien.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

I was surprised to see Harfoots back in Greenwood again from their trip to the Marshes and East :D

If someone would sketch their exact path based on movements of these maps and where they previously said they were going it would look... quite insane, back and forth all the time... No surprise the teleporting 'mystics' couldn't just teleport to the Stranger right away, with Harfoots movements glitching out like that

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They're not just mystics if you ask me, those three 'weird sisters' are acting more like Maiar every time we see them. Not just with the disappearing act but from the way they're dressed and how they don't appear to need to speak to each other, and now casual use of powerful magic.

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Making a distinction between movies and a TV series is somewhat arbitrary - if anything a TV series, where even a mini-series would be longer than a movie, would give more opportunity to explore things in a thoughtful way as there's more time to play with for, say, character development. Instead RoP's show-runners just pad out the runtime of each episode with a lot of pointless guff that doesn't contribute anything meaningful. We might not expect production values to be so high for a TV series but that's no excuse for poor writing.

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True, on the other hand though, a TV series will engage the viewer over smaller, but more regular periods of time. I wouldn't call it poor writing, the script has entertainment value, it just isn't the same as the book. If you go into it, expecting it to be, then yeah, all you will find is disappointment. The same goes for the films and this game.

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Telling that you've picked something that's only just been added to the game and that caught flak itself. And using a game as a yardstick to measure a TV series against - really? When would anyone normally do that? And you already said a game is a different beast to a TV series.

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I could have just as easily called out Rune-keeper, or any other of a long list of in game things. I chose the most recent for a reason. I use the yard stick against all the different types of media produced based on LotR. It all comes from the same story. Some do it better than others, but none do it completely right.

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

This seems to be completely arbitrary. So magic hobbits *in a game* are somehow worse than suspending physical realism *in a TV series* for no good reason, and in a way Tolkien himself didn't do? Morgoth used volcanic eruptions as a weapon against the High Elves at the start of the Battle of Sudden Flame and killed a great many of them. 'Many charred bones had there their roofless grave', we're told (Sil ch. 18, 'Of the Ruin of Beleriand'), and how all the plain of Ard-galen became the Anfauglith, '...a burned and desolate waste, full of a choking dust, barren and lifeless.' So we have an example *in the fiction* of many High Elves being wiped out by the exact same force of nature that somehow can't put so much as a mark on one in the show. That's RoP all over, it's mindless and that's the absolute worst thing to do to Tolkien.

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Yup, for me, magic hobbits are the worst of an already bad bunch of stuff, regardless of where it is presented. The game brought us Mordor, a place where we can freely walk around straight off the destruction of the ring, where orcs are busy and still very much organised throughout the land. Not exactly as it should be, but, the game wouldn't have done well without it.

RoP is what it is. Its sensationalised, and some of it is way over the top, but, that's entertainment for you. You go into it with your eyes wide open and accept all the flaws, or you just don't watch it. Clearly you are watching it, which, like it or not, contributes to it's success. I play this game, with its magic hobbits running around everywhere, RKs and all other manner of unfitting things and all, which contributes to its success. I enjoy the parts of it that are good, and turn a blind eye to the rest. What i don't do is accept it on one front, then condemn it on another.

The alternative is - don't watch the series, or the films, or play the game if they contain things that bother you to any massive extent. Some folks don't like reading, they will never read the books and they will never know the differences.

Nobody is saying you should like the series, in fact, I would have bet my bottom dollar, ten minutes into the first episode that the hair on the back of your neck would be upright. And you'd be correct, because it will have that effect on people who are very lore orientated. It isn't LotR, and if you don't try to see as such, it's entertaining.

You go into a fancy restaurant. The decor is impressive. The atmosphere enticing. The staff is fantastic. The menu looks great. Then your table all order their meals. The chef actually comes to your table. However, regardless of what you've ordered, he opens a can of dog food and plops it onto your plate. Welcome to Rings of Power.

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Originally Posted by Arnenna

True, on the other hand though, a TV series will engage the viewer over smaller, but more regular periods of time. I wouldn't call it poor writing, the script has entertainment value, it just isn't the same as the book.

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I'd call it poor writing because compared to other fantasy series (like, say, House of the Dragon or Arcane) RoP has poor characterisation, little or no character development, poor pacing, is shot full of plot-holes, relies on J J Abrams style 'mystery box' writing in lieu of real plot,'fails to evoke an expansive world due to there being no sense of time and distance, and makes poor use of its source material all round. So it isn't that it's not the same as the book; It's simply so poorly written that it has far less entertainment value than it could have had as a TV series, because by and large it's mindless and that's not only bad in itself, it's a waste of Middle-earth as a thoughtfully-constructed fantasy setting.

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I could have just as easily called out Rune-keeper, or any other of a long list of in game things. I chose the most recent for a reason. I use the yard stick against all the different types of media produced based on LotR. It all comes from the same story. Some do it better than others, but none do it completely right.

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So not to much a yardstick as lowering the bar clear to the floor and being all "look, it's better than that". Well, I guess if you adopt such a low standard then you'll never be disappointed but I think many people expect more, and that we really should. Because what you've said there is positively encouraging companies to spew out junk.

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RoP is what it is. Its sensationalised, and some of it is way over the top, but, that's entertainment for you.

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That's *poor* entertainment for you. We know other people can do way better so there's absolutely no reason to go fumbling around to find excuses for Amazon Studios. And somehow I doubt me hate-watching RoP just to pick it apart and post about it is contributing to its success (not that picking it apart takes much doing, it falls apart all by itself).

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in fact, I would have bet my bottom dollar, ten minutes into the first episode that the hair on the back of your neck would be upright.

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To be precise, my hackles rose a little over eight minutes in with the ice-wall scene (I'd call that epic fail for fantasy generally, never mind Tolkien), ten minutes for the "we keep moving" scene (every Elf left behind, seemingly), twelve minutes in when Galadriel punches through a solid block of ice, and then sixteen minutes when she effortlessly solos the troll (against which her men had been completely useless, because of course they're men and it's that sort of series). So all told, a little over a quarter of an hour and for any other fantasy series I'd have gone "this is awful" and given up then and there. And that's not even everything that's wrong with that first episode. I've seldom seen anything go bad that fast.

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Originally Posted by DKenny

You go into a fancy restaurant. The decor is impressive. The atmosphere enticing. The staff is fantastic. The menu looks great. Then your table all order their meals. The chef actually comes to your table. However, regardless of what you've ordered, he opens a can of dog food and plops it onto your plate. Welcome to Rings of Power.

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Watching the scenes with Elrond and Durin alone, makes me enjoy the series.
And Disa, my god, that's gold righ there.
I get that there are people who dont like the series, because they feel
the creators should have stuck closely to the source material.
But in reality since they couldnt use the Silmarillion, they had little to go with.
So they created their own stories, inside the story.

As someone who has been a Tolkien reader/ crazy for over 40 years, I must
say I absolutely love the series so far.
Episode 1-3 were very slow, but 4-6 were very good.
I really enjoy the storyline of Arondir, Bronwyn and Theo.
The creation of Mordor and how it came to be: epic.

Seeing how they are portraying the relation between Elendil and Isildur really provides depth
into who Isildur was and why he ended up doing what he finally did.

But the real stars of the show are imo Durin, Disa (my favorite), and Elrond.
The whole way in which the dwarves and Moria are portrayed is really
spot on.

So, if you havent watched it because of bad online reviews: do yourself
a favor, watch it and form your own opinion.;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fadil

Watching the scenes with Elrond and Durin alone, makes me enjoy the series.
And Disa, my god, that's gold righ there.
I get that there are people who dont like the series, because they feel
the creators should have stuck closely to the source material.
But in reality since they couldnt use the Silmarillion, they had little to go with.
So they created their own stories, inside the story.

As someone who has been a Tolkien reader/ crazy for over 40 years, I must
say I absolutely love the series so far.
Episode 1-3 were very slow, but 4-6 were very good.
I really enjoy the storyline of Arondir, Bronwyn and Theo.
The creation of Mordor and how it came to be: epic.

Seeing how they are portraying the relation between Elendil and Isildur really provides depth
into who Isildur was and why he ended up doing what he finally did.

But the real stars of the show are imo Durin, Disa (my favorite), and Elrond.
The whole way in which the dwarves and Moria are portrayed is really
spot on.

So, if you havent watched it because of bad online reviews: do yourself
a favor, watch it and form your own opinion.;)

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It's dog food. If you enjoy eating dog food, then more power to you. I don't, so I'll pass, thanks all the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DKenny

It's dog food. If you enjoy eating dog food, then more power to you. I don't, so I'll pass, thanks all the same.

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You know what it is with opinions, everyone has one, only the weak of mind cant accept that.:cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fadil

Seeing how they are portraying the relation between Elendil and Isildur really provides depth
into who Isildur was and why he ended up doing what he finally did.

---

The characters in the show have very little to do with their namesakes and besides that, RoP's Elendil is a plank of wood (until this last episode when he becomes a tearful plank of wood) and Isildur is an idiot so I'm bemused as to how you reckon that.

Quote:

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So, if you havent watched it because of bad online reviews: do yourself
a favor, watch it and form your own opinion.;)

---

Well, I already have and as far as I'm concerned, the negative online reviews are in the right and the only reason to watch it is out of morbid curiosity. I can't recommend it to anyone otherwise, it's just that bad. Not just as a Tolkien adaptation but as fantasy, period.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Sigh...

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I started playing this game back in 2011. I came to these forums probably about a year later.

I've had several names under different accounts (which, thanks to my...bitterness and prior CMs, I can no longer access).

One thing on this forum has remained constant. That you, Radhruin-my-brother-in-Christ, need to find happiness.

I've never come across a more cynical and critical person on this forum.

Here is a tip, you don't know as much about Tolkien as you think you do. And lastly, no one really cares if you do.

I speak from experience when I say this--stop being that guy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

I think this illustrates the problem with everything you've said, given the way you seem to be blithely ignoring the obvious problems with how they're written: they go on about how much they supposedly care for each other while not just leaving people behind on purpose but even talking about taking the wheels off their carts as well. They're like a little death cult, complete with their own ritual reading of their very own 'Book of the Names of the Dead'. "Nobody goes off trail, and nobody walks alone" chants Sadoc - except when they do force people to walk alone and die. They have a completely dysfunctional society where each little family unit is evidently on its own and the others *do not help* even when someone's hurt (or old, or sick, by implication - and what about when someone's pregnant?). And you've seemingly missed this glaring flaw: it would not work, it's not a viable survival strategy: genuine empathy and helping each other is vital in any society, especially a nomadic one; pull-your-own-cart-all-by-yourselves-or-die would be a recipe for the slow death of the whole group. And that's why I call it a death cult, it's set up as if they do all want to die. There is no innocence in that, it's horrible and it showcases just how bad this show's writing is that they think this will be engaging.

(And the Harfoots are already too few to avoid becoming ever more inbred - hey would be already - so that's just the icing on the cake...)

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I’m not ignoring but. I’m disagreeing with that interpretation of it. I don’t think the show has shown that the Harfoots are dysfunctional as much as you and some of the other detractors have take it to be. It was not every family for themselves. They put Noris family at the front of the caravan at the beginning specifically because the dads leg was broken. They didn’t throw him out because he was hurt. They put them in the back because Nori broke the laws of their people and the laws required exile from the group, something that has been used as a punishment by peoples all over the world. That’s not a lack of empathy. Sadoc chose to give them a chance even if it was slight by putting them in the back of the group instead of exiling them outright. Despite the fact that from their perspective Nori broke a major rule and put the whole group is danger. Was it kindhearted? No, but it definitely was not the abandonment that people have made it out to be either.

Second, I was asked why I enjoyed it. So even if I was 100% wrong on that interpretation it doesn’t show the “problem with everything I said.” That’s the reason people don’t want to take the time to write why they like things. Because if they like them for the wrong reasons or don’t convince someone else then everything they enjoy is “wrong” according to someone else. I wasn’t trying to convince you to like the show, because frankly having seen your posts I think that would be a fool’s errand. I also wasn’t trying to say it was a “good” show because I am not a professional critic and don’t know how to properly judge something like that and despite what some online may think not every amateur needs to review whether a piece of media is good or bad. I was telling someone why I personally found enjoyment from it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

They're not just mystics if you ask me, those three 'weird sisters' are acting more like Maiar every time we see them. Not just with the disappearing act but from the way they're dressed and how they don't appear to need to speak to each other, and now casual use of powerful magic.

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Yes, they're Maiar of the Matrix... Or the Three, if you've seen the Outpost (which is something that I can't get out of my head, that this low budget fantasy series was actually better off narratively at the end of its first season than RoP will be LOL)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trobon

That’s not a lack of empathy. Sadoc chose to give them a chance even if it was slight by putting them in the back of the group instead of exiling them outright.

---

So first off, that's collective punishment of a whole family and that's a bad principle in itself. Putting them at the back would have killed them if it weren't for the Stranger, they'd have fallen behind and the wolves would have got them. That's what I mean, there's someone with an injured leg and not only does nobody offer to help (despite not everyone having carts to pull themselves) but they're all but ostracised by being put at the back. And even after that, we had Malva saying they should make sure of them by taking their wheels.

You can also see the lack of caring from how Poppy is an orphan yet there she is, having to pull a cart all by herself and again nobody seems to be offering to help. All fine and large to read the names of the left-behind from Sadoc's book, but what about the living? It's weird and horrible and these are meant to be hobbits, dammit. Kindly little souls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

The characters in the show have very little to do with their namesakes and besides that, RoP's Elendil is a plank of wood (until this last episode when he becomes a tearful plank of wood) and Isildur is an idiot so I'm bemused as to how you reckon that.

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They have everything to do with their namesakes.
It is pretty clear in the series how Pharazôn is growing into a populist and would later further be corrupted by Sauron, where
Elendil is driven by duty, his love for the elves, and yes he is boring.
Isildur is one character they gave a lot of depth to, and imo made him interesting.
He's clearly irresponsible, just a boy and driven by ambition/ his desire for
adventure.
You can just see a growing sense how this guy would prefer to keep the ring (which was quite strange).

I get it, you dont like the show, fine by me.
Doesn't in any way diminish my enjoyment of it.:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

I'd call it poor writing because compared to other fantasy series (like, say, House of the Dragon or Arcane) RoP has poor characterisation, little or no character development, poor pacing, is shot full of plot-holes, relies on J J Abrams style 'mystery box' writing in lieu of real plot,'fails to evoke an expansive world due to there being no sense of time and distance, and makes poor use of its source material all round. So it isn't that it's not the same as the book; It's simply so poorly written that it has far less entertainment value than it could have had as a TV series, because by and large it's mindless and that's not only bad in itself, it's a waste of Middle-earth as a thoughtfully-constructed fantasy setting.


So not to much a yardstick as lowering the bar clear to the floor and being all "look, it's better than that". Well, I guess if you adopt such a low standard then you'll never be disappointed but I think many people expect more, and that we really should. Because what you've said there is positively encouraging companies to spew out junk.


That's *poor* entertainment for you. We know other people can do way better so there's absolutely no reason to go fumbling around to find excuses for Amazon Studios. And somehow I doubt me hate-watching RoP just to pick it apart and post about it is contributing to its success (not that picking it apart takes much doing, it falls apart all by itself).


To be precise, my hackles rose a little over eight minutes in with the ice-wall scene (I'd call that epic fail for fantasy generally, never mind Tolkien), ten minutes for the "we keep moving" scene (every Elf left behind, seemingly), twelve minutes in when Galadriel punches through a solid block of ice, and then sixteen minutes when she effortlessly solos the troll (against which her men had been completely useless, because of course they're men and it's that sort of series). So all told, a little over a quarter of an hour and for any other fantasy series I'd have gone "this is awful" and given up then and there. And that's not even everything that's wrong with that first episode. I've seldom seen anything go bad that fast.

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Yet, you're still watching it. Whether or not you're picking it apart for review is irrelevant, you're still part of the stats for it's success. I can overcome most things that I don't like when watching any adaptation on a book, but now and again, if something really gets to me, I just abandon it. It's not worth the mental acrobatics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DKenny

It's dog food. If you enjoy eating dog food, then more power to you. I don't, so I'll pass, thanks all the same.

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To form the opinion that it's dog food, you must have taken a taste :) But, you've done exactly the right thing. If it isn't up your street, then it isn't up your street, and dropping it like a hot coal is the right thing for you to do. Its consistent.

I don't get the whole, "this is garbage, but . . . imma keep watching it" thing.

I absolutely loved GoT, and I was glued to it, more than three times. I was really looking forward to House of Dragons, but, I couldn't get past the first episode, so that's gone for me now. Waiting patiently for Snow though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fadil

They have everything to do with their namesakes.

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No, really not, and I'll tell you why.

In the book, Elendil is the son of the Lord of Andunië and so high nobility, a descendant of the minor branch of the Line of Kings. His father Amandil was adviser to the king, occupying the position Pharazon has in the series. So \Elendil's a major figure from the get-go and that's how he ends up being the leader of the Faithful and ultimately the High King once they flee to Middle-earth.
In this series, Elendil is some descendant of fallen petty nobility and just a ship captain. That's a major change. So you can't simply be all "but it's the same character" like that. The scenario is very different. - his entire life would have been very different to that of his namesake in the book.
And to top if all, Amandil is the leader of the Faithful to start with and Elendil's fully invested in that, not conflicted.

And while we're at it, Pharazon was the king's nephew (so not just some populist politician) and the leader of the King's Men (the most powerful political faction), in active opposition to Tar-Palantir's policies and that was what drove the king to despair.
Being one of the Faithful, Tar-Palantir chose to die before old age made him unfit to rule, in favour of Miriel taking the throne. At which point Pharazon forced Miriel to marry him (despite them being first cousins, so it wasn't legal) and usurped the throne.
And Pharazon and Miriel should be nearly the same age, too. So again, very different.

As if all that wasn't enough, at that point Numenor was also a major power with havens and other colonies in Middle-earth and was already exploiting it for resources, which was where they'd got their large fleet from and also why they'd got powerful armies capable of seeing off Sauron. So again RoP's shtick is very different. The whole history of Numenor is changed and compressed, and the roles of characters significantly changed along with that.

You can say whatever else you like about the series but don't try to pretend there's any real read-across to the books as far as characters go. They've changed far too much for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

No, really not, and I'll tell you why.

In the book, Elendil is the son of the Lord of Andunië and so high nobility, a descendant of the minor branch of the Line of Kings. His father Amandil was adviser to the king, occupying the position Pharazon has in the series. So \Elendil's a major figure from the get-go and that's how he ends up being the leader of the Faithful and ultimately the High King once they flee to Middle-earth.
In this series, Elendil is some descendant of fallen petty nobility and just a ship captain. That's a major change. So you can't simply be all "but it's the same character" like that. The scenario is very different. - his entire life would have been very different to that of his namesake in the book.
And to top if all, Amandil is the leader of the Faithful to start with and Elendil's fully invested in that, not conflicted.

And while we're at it, Pharazon was the king's nephew (so not just some populist politician) and the leader of the King's Men (the most powerful political faction), in active opposition to Tar-Palantir's policies and that was what drove the king to despair.
Being one of the Faithful, Tar-Palantir chose to die before old age made him unfit to rule, in favour of Miriel taking the throne. At which point Pharazon forced Miriel to marry him (despite them being first cousins, so it wasn't legal) and usurped the throne.
And Pharazon and Miriel should be nearly the same age, too. So again, very different.

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There are differences, absolutely. I never said the series followed the books to the letter, because its clear it doesn't.
But you are so obsessed with details that you can no longer see the big picture, so to speak.
The big picture of the different factions of Numenor, where one wanted to remain close to the elves, and the other not. Where a powerhungry, populist politician takes over
and is then further corrupted by Sauron, which ultimately led to the destruction of Numenor, is the same.

They create their own story in this story so to speak. Love it or hate it, I dont really care.;)