So Orion.. Wardens?

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that still doesn't make sense to me, if what you say is true then all a healer would ever need to do is spam heals and keep his group as near full morale as possible, if succesfull he will never generate enough healing threat as to gain aggro. that seems like a serious design flaw if true. this isn't an easy thing to do, but for a well geared and skilled healer this would not be too hard to do.

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Not true. If in a fight, an 8k morale tank takes 5k damage, and during the fight you heal him every time his morale drops to 7.5k, at the end of the fight, you will still have healed an effective 5k damage, and gotten threat for healing 5k (and no threat for overhealing). Or, if you didn't overheal, and instead waited till the tank dropped to 6k to heal him, at the end of the fight(if you healed the tank up to full) you would have still healed an effective 5k damage.

If your tank takes X amount of damage, it doesn't matter if you let him drop more or not before you heal him, you are still going to heal him for X amount of damage, because thats how much he took.

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Add a small 30-60 group HoT to IF (no threat leech). A larger 80-120 group Hot (with minor leech) for MS. 140-160 HoT (with medium leech) for DoW. And finally leave Conviction unchanged.

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Interesting, but it seems unbalanced. Stacking these would lead to a groupwide 410 morale a second. combined with the fact they're all still aggro leeches, you could probably spam them and keep aggro on most things. I think while cool, it would increase our ability as a healer too much.

You know what would be awesome? If we could target our heals on another member of the group. I would stack outgoing healing for that. totes.

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Originally Posted by Malephor

Interesting, but it seems unbalanced. Stacking these would lead to a groupwide 410 morale a second. combined with the fact they're all still aggro leeches, you could probably spam them and keep aggro on most things. I think while cool, it would increase our ability as a healer too much.

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Well I don't see the problem personally. In order to reach that 410 you would need to stack all 4 hots and add a hefty power cost to each. It would not be optimal to tank by only spamming these skills. As you would run out of power much faster and the over-healing would be doing very little/nothing for aggro. To me it would work because of the proactive nature of wardens. If you know your group will be taking an AoE then you need to stack these heals. But when you are the only one taking damage it would be a waste to use high power cost skills when you have cheaper and more powerful ones available to you. Sure you could... but a great warden would do better.

As a side note I would also advocate moving the threat leach to a fist line (desolation line maybe) if that is what it took to give wardens more AoE healing.

Reading about wardens trying to heal others (Single target and all that) maximizing conviction makes me shiver. If I remember correctly, I picked the warden because it was a tank class/melee. If I wanted to heal more while doing melee, I would've just gone captain. (Which this is what it kinda seems its going down to with some of the posts)

I mean, yes. I like that we have a group wide HoT, don't get me wrong. If I were wanted to max out my outgoing healing to heal others.... I would've just rolled a minstrel/rk/cappy.

Some of the ideas I posted might seem OP, but that's how I felt when I read the hunters/minstrels updates.
Besides, the way classes are going, I think we really do need a huge update. Something that really defines our class roles.

I have to say i like the idea of IF being a small threat leech, that would make just oodles of sense. Tbh i think one of the issues we have atm are some of our nonlinear lines.

For exampel the 2-1 line is perfect, not talking about buffs or anything specific but about how it escalates and ties into our gameplay. The 1-2-(1) or 1-2-3 lines are other nice examples of well evolving lines. Every gambit in those lines has a clearly defined purpose and never gets really obsolete, the closest would probably be 2-1, but even that one atleast has the niche of being almost free.

However looking at the 2-3, 3-2 or 1-3-(1) lines ... things get a bit odd. Suddenly gambits start falling through and not being useful ... at all. Also WC, desolation and Boar's Rush have no relation at all with later gambits in the line and little with each other, its all a bit off but still working more or less well.

Finally the 3-1-(3) and 3-1-2 lines i consider off. The 3-1-(3) line for all intents and purposes ends at 3-1, really no reason to use anything further down. The 3-1-2 line at first glance looks fine because it lets us do nice things, and indeed the issues here are deeper. Two of the three gambits in that line have no threat component at all, fist gambits, without any threat component. Also these leeches are not considered DoTs, nor are they considered heals. Infact there isn't much that affects them at all, unlike spear gambits which are heavily changed by traiting spear or shield gambits by traiting shield.

Imho Way of the Fist should just focus on actually improving these two lines, which are important and good lines after all. Might even get away with a few minor tweaks. Also i would like to see some small tweaks to make the 1-3-(1) line more attractive, currently unless im mistaken, using WT and the Bleeds will result in more damage and threat while it imho should only result in more damage. Maybe add some form of small threat buff on each gambit in the line? Only applying to threat gambits starting with spear, kind of like ballad bonus for minstrels.

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Originally Posted by ANewMachine

The issue with Masteries as traits is that they're pretty much 100% necessary for Wardens, and they unnecessarily restrict builds. I'd love to do 5 Spear/2 Fist for the aggro lulz, but I can't, because I have to do 5/1/1. And let's face it - once you've learned masteries, you're vastly more efficient with them than without them. They're basically a requirement of raid tanking, and a near-requirement everywhere else, as they improve power efficiency and gambit speed (and thus DPS, Threat gen, healing, etc.).

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My issue with Masteries is that we spend 50+ levels learning how to play the class one way, then have to relearn everything to build our gambits using an entirely new mechanic. It'd be a lot more helpful if we were introduced to them MUCH earlier on.

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Originally Posted by forceofnone

Excellent! We can have the role of preferred healer for Champ tanks.

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You misunderstand what I was saying(though I didn't make it very clear). Have a toggle that you can put on a healer that would make it every time they perform a heal a certain % of that heal would heal the warden.

Example: minstrel BC is ~1200. You put the toggle on them that heals you for, say, 10% of any healing they perform. So if they heal somebody for 1200, you would get 120 health.

Just a thought, one of those random I ideas I had while making the post.

Here;s my whole thought on the transfer our healing to someone else things. I think it'd be great if in addition we'd be dumping our threat on our target as well. That way he is definitely sure to have aggro, and we're healing him up. And putting our buffs on him would be nice too, though maybe a bit OP. In the end, I just really want a second role. Whether it be healing/buffing a single target or significant ranged dps, enough to fill a dps slot, i dont' really care, but we need SOMETHING!

~Rae

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Originally Posted by geoboy

I don't see why NS can't be a gambit.

Will still require 'recently revived' to use.

Skill use consumes 'recently revived' status.

I don't see a reason for it to have a long CD, if you have to meet those requirements on use..

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I absolutely agree. What's the fear anyhow, that Wardens are going to deliberately die again and again so we can spam this skill? Please.

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Originally Posted by lf2536

Forced March and Find the Path are mostly useless these days as anyone can ride a mount as of level 5 and that's much faster then both skills. the only real time these skill are of any value is in Moria in case you don't have a goat or for PvMP.

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Those skills are very useful when collecting crafting materials as well. Find the Path is a lot more useful though since you never have to worry about leaving it on.

IMO Revamp fist line, forget secondary role - make warden super (equivalent) tank and nothing else. Give me a solo line (spear), small fellowship/group line (shield) - raid tank line (fist).

Spear - sustainable dps for soloing, way less survivability - capping b/p/e should be impossible - I'm fine with it not being comparable to other "DPS" classes
Shield - can make up for some group deficiencies - low dps/good self heals/good defense/some threat tools (no recovery or reduction tools - just generate and transfer)
Fist - high defense and superior threat management tools - nerf self heals and dps - more threat tools (reduce/generate/transfer/threat recovery)

I'd prefer to get away from the Warden is a small fellowship to -> Warden is a really good tanking class that has the tools to perform its job. I do not want the warden to be the super class. There needs to be some differentiation and dependence on other classes to complete difficult content. I do not want to be a better tank than guard just analogous in terms of group content, or any other tank class for that matter.

/rant

edit: stick with gambits - thats our thing, it's an advanced class b/c it isn't easy and I like that

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Originally Posted by Mysterion

I'd prefer to get away from the Warden is a small fellowship to -> Warden is a really good tanking class that has the tools to perform its job.

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Quoted for Truth.

Plus rep!

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Originally Posted by grinko.at

Make the warden a viable raid tank, and add some interesting mechanics to underused gambits. Possibly tied to a secondary role in groups.

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What do you mean by a viable raid tank! Wardens are excellent Raid MTs. My kin raids 3 night a week consistently and we mainly use wardens as tanks. I have personally MTed all Raids in game including BG LT CM (single tanked/ corruption duty). We are currently doing OD and have taken down all of T1 and Disease, Wound and Poison T2.

As an example when we run BG gauntlet, we have a warden (fist traited) and champ in the middle, no back tank (cappy brings uruks to front) and a warden (me) in the front on Uruks. We have Hunters go strength and dps on the Uruks. We 8-manned BG gauntlet just a couple of days ago using this approach.

Masteries being skills would really open up many more trait possibilities for us but even a single trait called Masteries that would take one trait slot and give you all masteries would be a much needed addition.

Switch tanking is tough for us but not impossible. DC IMHO should be extended to 10 sec which would make it as long as the gaurd's, champs's and captains's challenges. It is currently too short and has a very long animation. Maybe add a cooldown to it so it can not be spammed.

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Originally Posted by Dradous

What do you mean by a viable raid tank! Wardens are excellent Raid MTs. My kin raids 3 night a week consistently and we mainly use wardens as tanks. I have personally MTed all Raids in game including BG LT CM (single tanked/ corruption duty). We are currently doing OD and have taken down all of T1 and Disease, Wound and Poison T2.

As an example when we run BG gauntlet, we have a warden (fist traited) and champ in the middle, no back tank (cappy brings uruks to front) and a warden (me) in the front on Uruks. We have Hunters go strength and dps on the Uruks. We 8-manned BG gauntlet just a couple of days ago using this approach.

Masteries being skills would really open up many more trait possibilities for us but even a single trait called Masteries that would take one trait slot and give you all masteries would be a much needed addition.

Switch tanking is tough for us but not impossible. DC IMHO should be extended to 10 sec which would make it as long as the gaurd's, champs's and captains's challenges. It is currently too short and has a very long animation. Maybe add a cooldown to it so it can not be spammed.

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I would tend to agree with Pyrrhusor in that Wardens can tank very effectively when traited Fist. This has been proven time and time again, especially when your job is to off-tank multiple adds.
The biggest handicap to the class is not that Fist line is worthless, nor that we need a power-tap (please), nor that NS needs to be fixed (I simply find it a useless skill and choose not to have it on my hotbar)....rather the biggest obstacle to opening up the class is the fact that Masteries take up 3 trait slots. Masteries are the bread and butter of an effective Warden, and are the key to achieving the class's full potential. By takin gup 3 trait slots, one is left with very limited options....trait 4 down one line to get the endcap legendary trait...and......3 masteries. No flexibility here.

One viable option, since there seems to be some reluctance to make masteries a skill, would be to combine all 3 masteries into one trait. By doing so, this would free up two more slots to trait for some extra DPS if traited shield, or some extra threat gen if traited Spear, etc....the possibility of flexible traiting just like other classes would really open the class up.
Now some may believe that this would overpower the Warden. I heartily disagree, but I will not make this post any longer by addressing that subject here. Suffice to say that even if this all-inclusive masteries trait were to be made a legendary trait, it would still be a win/win situation. I personally would not mind trading JoDF or DC for an all inclusive masteries trait.

Anyways, I have had my say, and I trust that I haven't ruffled too many feathers.

Thank you for your time.

Warpanzer Likestotalk
The Inklings Kinship of Meneldor

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Originally Posted by Dradous

What do you mean by a viable raid tank! Wardens are excellent Raid MTs.

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The problem isn't that we can't do it. We can. The problem is that guards are better at it. With threat stance and engage/CtD they have better aggro control than wardens do atm. It isn't about the force taunts. But what class is better for the job. And honestly two great guards in the best gear is far better than two great wardens in the best gear when it comes to raiding. Simply because stuff happens... If a warden dies due to a healer missing a beat then its game over. A guard can engage and be good to go within seconds of a res. Us... we have to run after the mob and spam threat for a long time to get it back. Once you get a raid down to the point that not having a guard tank it would be fine... A LM or Hunter is tanking it instead. Just being honest.

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Originally Posted by Drglory

The problem isn't that we can't do it. We can. The problem is that guards are better at it. With threat stance and engage/CtD they have better aggro control than wardens do atm. It isn't about the force taunts. But what class is better for the job. And honestly two great guards in the best gear is far better than two great wardens in the best gear when it comes to raiding. Simply because stuff happens... If a warden dies due to a healer missing a beat then its game over. A guard can engage and be good to go within seconds of a res. Us... we have to run after the mob and spam threat for a long time to get it back. Once you get a raid down to the point that not having a guard tank it would be fine... A LM or Hunter is tanking it instead. Just being honest.

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QFT

Like I've said in other threads, the problems wardens face is basically like if a guard had no engage, warrior's heart, pledge or deep-breath. If they took those things away from a guard, he would still be able to tank effectively, just like wardens can tank effectively. I would like it if wardens were given some skills for use like that, not really needed but makes the class more desirable and survivable.

Hi there! I'm Heynanni from The Inklings on Meneldor. My kin probably does so much more with wardens than most others. We push the boundaries of the class on just about every raid we do. I've range tanked Caragraf HM in BG, tanked Blind One in DN, and the LT EM in BG. Here are some of my thoughts:

-I'd be ecstatic if masteries either went to a Legendary trait, or to a single class trait. The ability to go 5 and 2 would be awesome. Think of adding a Fish punch to traiting Shield. Or shield punch to traiting Spear.
-Traiting Fist is a ton of fun! It is completely raid viable- I trait it to run the middle of the BG gauntlet and I keep most mobs off the healers in this fashion, even without a champ to ebb ire. Fellowship wise, you can't beat it in HoC. I also use it in Skum and GS. I use Fist when there's no cc going on. Shield is better for non damage aggro.
-Onslaught rises above the other spear gambits for one big reason for me- the set bonus on the DN set. If it weren't for that, I'd be much more on Boar's Rush.
-I like to change up my stances for situational use- so I do use Determination in harder healing situations like Poison Wing t2, adding to it would be icing on the cake.

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Originally Posted by Drglory

The problem isn't that we can't do it. We can. The problem is that guards are better at it. With threat stance and engage/CtD they have better aggro control than wardens do atm. It isn't about the force taunts. But what class is better for the job. And honestly two great guards in the best gear is far better than two great wardens in the best gear when it comes to raiding. Simply because stuff happens... If a warden dies due to a healer missing a beat then its game over. A guard can engage and be good to go within seconds of a res. Us... we have to run after the mob and spam threat for a long time to get it back. Once you get a raid down to the point that not having a guard tank it would be fine... A LM or Hunter is tanking it instead. Just being honest.

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Instant threat is what guards can do. Wardens leech threat. Conviction and DoW and Fist gambits can get us threat back from a rez just fine, better with a champ in group.

Swap tanking happens just fine, better with a LoM captain in group. That's how we do Fear wing. Halo goes onto guard's head, cappy jumps in with Grave Wound and gives the warden time to get it back. Also spreads the damage around a bit more.

In general a raid's survivability comes from the quick thinking and flexibility of its players. A lesser skilled player can play an end game guard no prob, it takes a much better player to play an end game raid MT warden (just ask Pyr). Wardens can and do tank anything a guard can, and some things they can't (Caragraf HM for example).

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Originally Posted by grinko.at

Please Orion, take your time. Don't try to add quick fixes, give this class some work even if it means pushing it to be the last class in the update cycle.

Make the warden a viable raid tank, and add some interesting mechanics to underused gambits. Possibly tied to a secondary role in groups.

As for Fist, my proposal was to turn it into a mixed AoE tank/DoT line, here. If you want to change it into the raid-tanking line, that would need a complete rework.

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Why do you think or others think Wardens are not a "viable" tank in Raids? We use nearly exclusively (and not with prejudice to other classes) Wardens in Raids. We have beaten all of BG with a Warden tanking every boss prior and after the removal of Gloom. We have beaten every wing in OD we have attempted on Tier 1 or Tier 2 with a Warden.

I am not saying they don't deserve love, but honestly sorry that the class keeps getting a bad wrap. People who can play it well find success in tanking with it. I just think "viable" is a strong word as in my experience they are well beyond viable and this includes range tanking and holding range threat over a Hunter on Cargaraf in BG. However, I would simply love to see the class get more proficient at range tanking mobs as a specialty over other classes.

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Originally Posted by heynanni

Instant threat is what guards can do. Wardens leech threat. Conviction and DoW and Fist gambits can get us threat back from a rez just fine, better with a champ in group.

Swap tanking happens just fine, better with a LoM captain in group. That's how we do Fear wing. Halo goes onto guard's head, cappy jumps in with Grave Wound and gives the warden time to get it back. Also spreads the damage around a bit more.

In general a raid's survivability comes from the quick thinking and flexibility of its players. A lesser skilled player can play an end game guard no prob, it takes a much better player to play an end game raid MT warden (just ask Pyr). Wardens can and do tank anything a guard can, and some things they can't (Caragraf HM for example).

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First I am very pro-warden. This class is one of the best in the game (or any for that matter). Second I personally have pushed the class in my kinship from whats-a-warden to wardens-can-tank. I have MT everything in BG. However i have yet to tank OD because i am taking a hiatus until they update wardens.

My point about using guards still stands. Threat leaches and all the amazing things wardens can do rock. Don't get me wrong. But if it takes you over 10 seconds to get aggro back after a res it almost always is a wipe. Most raids don't give you time to spam PB for as long as it takes to out aggro that 800+ DPS champ or hunter. No matter what anyone says if you go down on a warden it is game over. And aggro swapping CAN be done even without outside help. But it is a lot tricker and takes coordination. However my guardian friends don't need any help to aggro swap. The tools they have available are what defines them.

As to your tanking the shadow chick... My kin would rather take a hunter or RK to ranged tank than bring a warden.

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Originally Posted by Drglory

The problem isn't that we can't do it. We can. The problem is that guards are better at it. With threat stance and engage/CtD they have better aggro control than wardens do atm. It isn't about the force taunts. But what class is better for the job. And honestly two great guards in the best gear is far better than two great wardens in the best gear when it comes to raiding. Simply because stuff happens... If a warden dies due to a healer missing a beat then its game over. A guard can engage and be good to go within seconds of a res. Us... we have to run after the mob and spam threat for a long time to get it back. Once you get a raid down to the point that not having a guard tank it would be fine... A LM or Hunter is tanking it instead. Just being honest.

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This is just not in line with our kin's experience and I believe that is what is trying to be corrected. We don't have people pull off a Warden. Our Wardens don't die and while we have good healers, it's the effective playing of the warden class the prevents their death and avoids the argument of needing to regain threat. Our Warden tanking doesn't happen after "we learn it with a guard;" our wardens do it first and we do it clean.

I have not seen an experience that has led me to believe Guards are better suited for raiding as tanks and I have raided behind great guards in great gear and great wardens in great gear. Both are at least equally viable and not sure how one would measure who is "better" suited. They are both built to tank, and both do it effectively in our experience with different approaches. I just haven't had the experience where I was like, "huh, wish we had a guard instead." I'll take either.

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Originally Posted by Drglory

However my guardian friends don't need any help to aggro swap. The tools they have available are what defines them.

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Aggro swapping can be hard and is one area where Wardens could use some help, I have no argument there, but I don't think we want class changes for the sake of class blending either. Just because Guards find it easier to do a swap doesn't mean Wardens ought to or that Wardens should be side lined for a Guard. They have benefits the Guard does not have as well to a group. If they have tools that are more appealing to someone, then they ought to play them, but I have yet to see a reason not to bring Wardens to OD or any raid until they are overhauled...

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Originally Posted by JTollers

This is just not in line with our kin's experience and I believe that is what is trying to be corrected. We don't have people pull off a Warden. Our Wardens don't die and while we have good healers, it's the effective playing of the warden class the prevents their death and avoids the argument of needing to regain threat. Our Warden tanking doesn't happen after "we learn it with a guard;" our wardens do it first and we do it clean.

I have not seen an experience that has led me to believe Guards are better suited for raiding as tanks and I have raided behind great guards in great gear and great wardens in great gear. Both are at least equally viable and not sure how one would measure who is "better" suited. They are both built to tank, and both do it effectively in our experience with different approaches. I just haven't had the experience where I was like, "huh, wish we had a guard instead." I'll take either.

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I'm sure it works great with 2 wardens, I'm sure it works great with 2 guards. But 1 warden, 1 guard, aggro swap almost always seems to suck somehow, especially with a time limit. Engage misses, guard forgets to swap out of stance, warden can't build enough threat to make up the difference that guardian belts give (in long fights)... lots of stuff goes wrong. Essentially, the aggro mechanics are less compatible in heterogeneous groups, at least as far as I've seen.

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Originally Posted by JTollers

I have not seen an experience that has led me to believe Guards are better suited for raiding as tanks and I have raided behind great guards in great gear and great wardens in great gear. Both are at least equally viable and not sure how one would measure who is "better" suited. They are both built to tank, and both do it effectively in our experience with different approaches. I just haven't had the experience where I was like, "huh, wish we had a guard instead." I'll take either.

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Now I'm confused. First you said your kin has used wardens exclusively as tanks and now you're saying that they're equal?

My question is: how much content have you done with just guards, or a guard and a warden as tanks?

I totally believe you that you've done all your OD stuff clean without a guard because for the first few weeks our guard couldn't make it to raids and I was MT for everything and we did fine.

Also, about your last statement... I've had more than one experience where I was playing my warden and said to myself "I wish I had engage right now" "I wish I had pledge right now" the same for thrill of danger, take to heart, and even to the king. The only skill I've ever heard a guard want from a warden was conviction(and I heard this maybe twice)... to me at least, that's a good indicator for what wardens need: more skills guards can only wish they had :D (and please, no "just roll a guard" comments)

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Originally Posted by Morcanden

I'm sure it works great with 2 wardens, I'm sure it works great with 2 guards. But 1 warden, 1 guard, aggro swap almost always seems to suck somehow, especially with a time limit. Engage misses, guard forgets to swap out of stance, warden can't build enough threat to make up the difference that guardian belts give (in long fights)... lots of stuff goes wrong. Essentially, the aggro mechanics are less compatible in heterogeneous groups, at least as far as I've seen.

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Correct me if I am wrong (I've only done aggro swapping, e.g. durin's bane and poison wing, with a warden-guard), but the real difficulty comes with warden-warden, where aggro swapping (beyond 5sec DC, which can be disastrous in poison wing) requires both wardens being close in threat levels (which can get out of balance if one warden does much more dps, or one spams PB too much, or if one warden's group builds more threat for conviction to transfer, etc.). Has anyone done any of the new boss fights with a warden-warden combo? I'd like to hear how it went. But on the main topic, yes, this is a game mechanism where wardens could use a little more help, though not a skill that would remove any challenge from such fights.