Massively Helm's Deep news and pictures!!!

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

do you really think they would change a class so drastically?

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You DID say three posts earlier...

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

they have said something along the lines of "our current classes can do to much which makes instances too each. our updated classes won't be able to do everything and have people make some serious choices". which sounds like a nurf in some sence imo.

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... so yes. Not only do I (a stranger to the conversation) think they would change a class so drastically, but apparently TURBINE thinks they would change a class so drastically, and since you quoted them you believe they would change a class very drastically as well. I'd call it a drastic change to take a class that can do a lot, and "update" it to where it can't do everything. I think that making a tank less of a tank is NOT as drastic as taking a class that can almost do everything and reducing it to where you need a party to replace it.

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Originally Posted by bongart

You DID say three posts earlier...

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keep it in context. that was to someone saying they would turn tanks into dps'ers. I think thats ludicrous. ofc, expect big things, but in the confines of what relates to your class now, you class will *feel* new, not be completely changed you won't even recognise it.

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I think that making a tank less of a tank is NOT as drastic as taking a class that can almost do everything and reducing it to where you need a party to replace it.

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like speculated in the guardian thread, I think they will be close. an aggro tank and a defensive tank for blue and yellow. ofc with an aggro tank you will need help with your survival more than we've been before, and yes, *maybe* that line does more dps than blue, but by no means a dps class in the group. and with defence, I suspect we'll have another class who can manage the groups aggro like a support class we don't usally have (blue LM, yellow warden, yellow champ, yellow burg, yellow hunter, red RK maybe)

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

so you admit that it's not WAI yet?

just need to get that over and done first.

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Actually ColorSpecs asked YOU his question first... you just ignored it, didn't answer, and instead asked him to admit the system was broken. In truth, he never said to begin with that the system WASN'T broken or in need of repair. He commented on the CHOICE of REPAIR used.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

the current trait system also is too open ended.

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Define this please, without using the phrase "open ended" in the definition. And remember, if you can simply pay silver and respec your character again (just like you could pay silver and change traits in the existing system) then the NEW system is just as "open ended" as the old one. The difference here, is that I worked my tail off to get all the traits I currently have now. With the new system, I lose them unless I spend a pile of points to get specific ones back. Of course, once I spend those points to get those specific traits back, I lose access to the other ones I worked my tail off to get. Oh wait... I can spend silver and respec. Which REALLY means that I can still swap traits and such but it just takes a ton of time to do so.

However, I'd still like to hear why you believe it is more open ended now than it will be in the future.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

we've been told many times that there new designed is each spec having a set roll and classes unable to do as much all at once. anyway they do the buffet system with a greater focus on the set bonuse (which we're basically in a tree system tbh...) would mean that it's too open ended. so trees was the simplest solution to focus classes into rolls

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I don't follow this.

At any rate, I'd also be interested in hearing how mentioning "tin hats" is in any way positive, as you have pointed out that in bringing up your usage of the phrase is focusing on the negative. It appears more like YOU are being insulting by even taking the conversation in that direction by using the phrase. I can't think of a single way to use the phrase "tin hats" and have it be positive. Oh, and if you do attempt to come up with a positive way to use it, make sure you explain exactly how you INTENDED the phrase to be taken when you did use it.

Or are you going to just ignore what I'm saying and gloss over it as you appear to be doing?

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

from the ~21 current class deeds like that, I would think those would be reduced, so the total of ~80 you said seems too high imo.

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why I say 77 might be the max. I also don't think that number came out of random for MC too. might be a plan there...

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The number I gave was 71. 2 per level starting at level 2 would give 47, plus 24 from class deeds would be 71. Add in the 7 from legendary traits (that I wasn't including) and that'd put you at 78, exactly one point higher than you're estimating. Assuming we don't get any points before 6, that means take two points off that number (for lvl 2 and 4) and that leaves it at 76, one point below your estimation.

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

At the very least we're getting a point every 2 levels and a point for every class deed, so at minimum we should have 71. That's not counting legendary trait deeds/quests or anything else that may also give points.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

keep it in context. that was to someone saying they would turn tanks into dps'ers.

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I did keep it in context. At the moment, you are the only one taking it out of context. That was to someone who was saying that they were probably going to take tanks and make them LESS of a tank and eventually useless. I'll show you the context you were replying to.

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Originally Posted by Minquinn

My other concerns about this xpac is that tanks will become used far less and ultimately become a useless class.

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There was no mention there by Minquinn of turning a tank into a dps class. It was mention of a fear of the tank class being made useless in general. So... I'm not the one with an issue keeping things in context.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

I think thats ludicrous. ofc, expect big things, but in the confines of what relates to your class now, you class will *feel* new, not be completely changed you won't even recognise it.

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I think there is a problem with you not reading what you write. Let me quote you AGAIN...

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

they have said something along the lines of "our current classes can do to much which makes instances too each. our updated classes won't be able to do everything and have people make some serious choices". which sounds like a nurf in some sence imo.

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Taking a class from where it could do almost everything, and changing it to where it most definitely CANNOT do everything, and forcing a player to rethink the class/character they play to the point of having to make serious choices.... that sounds a whole lot like changing a character class beyond the point of recognition. Your words.

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Originally Posted by bongart

Actually ColorSpecs asked YOU his question first...

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10 posts and your recalling everything I posted...

read back. everything you posted I replied to. I will just be repeating myself.

if you don't want speculative answers on little information we get from twitter/forums/others stuff then don't chat on forums. wait till dev dairies/live for facts.

again, that was posted before.

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There was no mention there by Minquinn of turning a tank into a dps class. It was mention of a fear of the tank class being made useless in general.

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same thing. very negative at something I highly doubt the team will do.

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Taking a class from where it could do almost everything, and changing it to where it most definitely CANNOT do everything, and forcing a player to rethink the class/character they play to the point of having to make serious choices.... that sounds a whole lot like changing a character class beyond the point of recognition.

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you will still have the core elements of your class. your champion can still dps, aoe and tank. just not all at once. there not going to change a tank to a dps class. there not going to make classes useless. your rotations and mechanisms will not be the same, it might *feel* differant. but it won't be a completely new class from the ground up. a champion won't suddenly become the preimum pet class. the wardens not going to be able to perma stun targets. the minstrel won't turn into a tank.

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

The number I gave was 71. (editted)1 per 2 levels(/editted) starting at level 2 would give 47, plus 24 from class deeds would be 71. Add in the 7 from legendary traits (that I wasn't including) and that'd put you at 78, exactly one point higher than you're estimating. Assuming we don't get any points before 6, that means take two points off that number (for lvl 2 and 4) and that leaves it at 76, one point below your estimation.

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there are actually 22 class deeds iinc. 2 traits are given from class quests. think thats the same with all classes. but still, I'd expect those class quests to give a point each too.

77 does sounds reasonable imo. that makes it look possible without removing any deeds. just changing slightly if they get broken ofc.

hope thats true tbh then. think around 70-80 is a nice number in total for good choice but not feeling very empty.

also I said ~80 because you said minimum of 71, wasn't sure what that ment exactly of a maximum. every play style will go for the maximum amount of class points, even 1 point off could mean your missing some potent trait.

Looks great so far. I hope this finally gets rid of the clunky nature (slow animations, clumsy feel) to many of these classes. This thing has on more than 1 occasion driven away players whom I have invited to the game. Especially burg and LM. Paring down these cluttered relic classes will be a breath of fresh air.

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Originally Posted by bongart

I did keep it in context. At the moment, you are the only one taking it out of context. That was to someone who was saying that they were probably going to take tanks and make them LESS of a tank and eventually useless. I'll show you the context you were replying to.



There was no mention there by Minquinn of turning a tank into a dps class. It was mention of a fear of the tank class being made useless in general. So... I'm not the one with an issue keeping things in context.




I think there is a problem with you not reading what you write. Let me quote you AGAIN...



Taking a class from where it could do almost everything, and changing it to where it most definitely CANNOT do everything, and forcing a player to rethink the class/character they play to the point of having to make serious choices.... that sounds a whole lot like changing a character class beyond the point of recognition. Your words.

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My worries are two fold. Class changes as well as content difficulty.

What happened with ROR was that outside my kin I was invited to less and less groups because my only reason for rolling guardian was to tank instances for other players. Since a tank was no longer needed for 3 and 6 man content I was then competing with other tanks for the 2 spots in most raids.

I will apologize for those I offend with my next statement.
I enjoy grouping in this game at all levels. The 6 man content used to be my favorite content. Since the mobs were hitting like wet noodles I got invited less and less as it became apparent that dps champs could easily tank the content. Why bring a guard or warden to slow down the group dps? We had 4 champs and 2 cappies busting out Bells. 5 champs and a cappy doing many other 6 mans. This is in my own kin and on our server. Many times when I asked if I could tank the content I was asked to switch to a dps toon. This led to my main toon being put on a shelf for everything except maybe every other raid.

Playing a warden has also been a huge dissappointment recently. I stopped playing one when they were rendered useless and then started again during the end of ROI when they were useful again. Then they changed main stats mid xpac. In my estimation done to support the lazy light, medium and heavy loot system of armor. So class changes has never been a strong point of the game aside from when the hunter changes were made back during Mirkwood/ITA. I don't play a cappy but I hear that's a class that got changed quite a bit.

Still think I'm wearing a tin foil hat?
(and I do find that term insulting. I have alot of knowledge about the games I play. I'm not having a paranoid delusion my fear are back with facts.)

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Originally Posted by Minquinn

My worries are two fold. Class changes as well as content difficulty.

What happened with ROR was that outside my kin I was invited to less and less groups because my only reason for rolling guardian was to tank instances for other players. Since a tank was no longer needed for 3 and 6 man content I was then competing with other tanks for the 2 spots in most raids.

I will apologize for those I offend with my next statement.
I enjoy grouping in this game at all levels. The 6 man content used to be my favorite content. Since the mobs were hitting like wet noodles I got invited less and less as it became apparent that dps champs could easily tank the content. Why bring a guard or warden to slow down the group dps? We had 4 champs and 2 cappies busting out Bells. 5 champs and a cappy doing many other 6 mans. This is in my own kin and on our server. Many times when I asked if I could tank the content I was asked to switch to a dps toon. This led to my main toon being put on a shelf for everything except maybe every other raid.

Playing a warden has also been a huge dissappointment recently. I stopped playing one when they were rendered useless and then started again during the end of ROI when they were useful again. Then they changed main stats mid xpac. In my estimation done to support the lazy light, medium and heavy loot system of armor. So class changes has never been a strong point of the game aside from when the hunter changes were made back during Mirkwood/ITA. I don't play a cappy but I hear that's a class that got changed quite a bit.

Still think I'm wearing a tin foil hat?
(and I do find that term insulting. I have alot of knowledge about the games I play. I'm not having a paranoid delusion my fear are back with facts.)

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Champs and Wardens need a nerf. There is an argument to be made that really all classes need a nerf, which is likely what we're getting. I think Guardians will have plenty to do in HD.

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Originally Posted by Minquinn

My worries are two fold. Class changes as well as content difficulty.

What happened with ROR was that outside my kin I was invited to less and less groups because my only reason for rolling guardian was to tank instances for other players. Since a tank was no longer needed for 3 and 6 man content I was then competing with other tanks for the 2 spots in most raids.

I will apologize for those I offend with my next statement.
I enjoy grouping in this game at all levels. The 6 man content used to be my favorite content. Since the mobs were hitting like wet noodles I got invited less and less as it became apparent that dps champs could easily tank the content. Why bring a guard or warden to slow down the group dps? We had 4 champs and 2 cappies busting out Bells. 5 champs and a cappy doing many other 6 mans. This is in my own kin and on our server. Many times when I asked if I could tank the content I was asked to switch to a dps toon. This led to my main toon being put on a shelf for everything except maybe every other raid.

Playing a warden has also been a huge dissappointment recently. I stopped playing one when they were rendered useless and then started again during the end of ROI when they were useful again. Then they changed main stats mid xpac. In my estimation done to support the lazy light, medium and heavy loot system of armor. So class changes has never been a strong point of the game aside from when the hunter changes were made back during Mirkwood/ITA. I don't play a cappy but I hear that's a class that got changed quite a bit.

Still think I'm wearing a tin foil hat?
(and I do find that term insulting. I have alot of knowledge about the games I play. I'm not having a paranoid delusion my fear are back with facts.)

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I don't think anything you said was offensive and that you stated your opinion very intelligently and politely. Outside of the hunter class, I don't know a lot about other classes and can't comment specifically on your concerns. But they seem valid and I understand where you're coming from.

I came across a couple of other media previews:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/s...7754/gameID/45

http://www.onrpg.com/articles/lotro-...nsion-preview/


Nothing really new or different.