Lord of the Rings on Prime

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Originally Posted by Altair6

That's something people seem to be forgetting, which the Tolkien Prof pointed out earlier when he was a guest on a YouTube panel reviewing the trailer.

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Coming back to this... best take anything Corey Olsen says about changes this series makes with a pinch of salt, he actually had the brass neck to say in an interview that "Tolkien never says Dwarven women have beards" and calls it a "bizarre fan fascination" for which there is "no textual justification at all". So, does the self-titled "Tolkien Professor" not own a copy of HoME, then? It's not just that he's wrong, he acts like we were all just imagining it and that it was just a joke PJ came up with and that's bloody annoying.

Link to article: https://www.ign.com/videos/the-lord-...rings-of-power

Plus there's the whole matter of Galadriel being married and having a young daughter, and how the whole running-around-fighting thing would actually fit Elrond. Corey Olsen doesn't even mention Celebrian. He's bending over backwards to avoid bringing up *anything* that might differ with the series' take on things even if it means ignoring things or getting things wrong.

He says that Legolas' father and grandfather were Silvan Elves - nope, they were Sindarin. And despite what he says, we have Haldir, Rumil and Orophin as named characters who were almost certainly Silvan Elves.

He messes up the geography: if Tolkien thought of Umbar as being like a city in North Africa (like Carthage on account of the war-elephants, or Algiers / Tunis / Tripoli on account of the Corsair thing) and Gondor having a similar climate to central Italy, then Dol Amroth can *not* be compared to Morocco (which is also in North Africa, obviously). And he thinks that because Numenor is a long way south we should ignore how Tolkien clearly describes Dunedain as tall and pale with dark hair and sea-grey eyes. If living in Numenor implied they were darker-skinned as he suggests then they should either all be (which would clash with what Tolkien said) or none of them should. They were all descended from the Edain, after all, i.e. specific peoples of Men rather than just Men in general and proto-Europeans in particular.

He doesn't pick up on how Durin IV is the 'wrong' Durin and you can't have two Durins around at once (they were believed to be reincarnations and that only happened every now and again).

He says that Arda's creation happened through song. That's a common mistake (the world was 'designed' in song but it was Eru's power that actually created it according to the form the Great Music had taken).

For comments on Galadriel, remember Tolkien wrote her as being very masculine and active (her mother named her man-maiden, and Tolkien described her as being like the Amazons, he wrote her as the only granddaughter of Finwe who spoke and acted like the grandsons). Galadriel in the Third Age is quite different, the one who can finally pass the test.


Also, let's not forget what Tolkien wrote about taking from and contributing to the 'cauldron of storytelling' in his world-famous essay that some call the foundation of the entire fantasy genre, "On Fairy-stories."

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Plus there's the whole matter of Galadriel being married and having a young daughter, and how the whole running-around-fighting thing would actually fit Elrond. Corey Olsen doesn't even mention Celebrian. He's bending over backwards to avoid bringing up *anything* that might differ with the series' take on things even if it means ignoring things or getting things wrong.

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We don't know when Celebrian was born. Also, we know Celeborn and Galdriel sometimes just did their own things for decades or centuries.

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He messes up the geography: if Tolkien thought of Umbar as being like a city in North Africa (like Carthage on account of the war-elephants, or Algiers / Tunis / Tripoli on account of the Corsair thing) and Gondor having a similar climate to central Italy, then Dol Amroth can *not* be compared to Morocco (which is also in North Africa, obviously). And he thinks that because Numenor is a long way south we should ignore how Tolkien clearly describes Dunedain as tall and pale with dark hair and sea-grey eyes

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I don't see the geography issue.
And Numenor can be diverse, it started from 3 clans of the Edain, probably had some immigrants, and so many were wiped out.
We also know Tolkien condemned ideas of race purity, which was an issue with Gondor and Umbar in the Third Age.

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Coming back to this... best take anything Corey Olsen says about changes this series makes with a pinch of salt,

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Like I said, you wanna argue with him, you argue with him. I ain't got no dog in any fight you wanna have with him. But thanks for the link to the video.

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Originally Posted by Faethyn

We don't know when Celebrian was born. Also, we know Celeborn and Galdriel sometimes just did their own things for decades or centuries.

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Definitely before the forging of the Rings, but she was still a child in Elvish terms. The aim was to have her be a suitable age to marry Elrond later. (The Nature of Middle-earth refers)

That's significant because whatever else, Tolkien didn't apparently imagine Elf-women who'd had children going off to fight (as per Laws and Customs among the Eldar) so that puts an implied end date on "Galadriel: Warrior Princess". You should allow that she can change from the First Age to the Second, not just from the Second to the Third.

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I don't see the geography issue.
And Numenor can be diverse, it started from 3 clans of the Edain, probably had some immigrants, and so many were wiped out.
We also know Tolkien condemned ideas of race purity, which was an issue with Gondor and Umbar in the Third Age.

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What, you can't tell the difference between central Italy and Morocco either?

And all three clans of the Edain would be proto-Europeans, because everyone we see as 'Middle Men' in the books (descended from peoples related to the Edain) are that too.

The Numenoreans had a thing for racial purity. Yes, it's later shown to have been a mistake that hastened the decline of the Dunedain (along with their obsession with death) but it's something they absolutely did have for a long, long time. So no immigrants either - when the Numenoreans started to turn nasty they full-on colonised Middle-earth and exploited the hell out of it so it was very much the other way around. Again, not shown to be a good thing but it's part of the story that it *was* a thing.

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Coming back to this... best take anything Corey Olsen says about changes this series makes with a pinch of salt, he actually had the brass neck to say in an interview that "Tolkien never says Dwarven women have beards" and calls it a "bizarre fan fascination" for which there is "no textual justification at all". So, does the self-titled "Tolkien Professor" not own a copy of HoME, then? It's not just that he's wrong, he acts like we were all just imagining it and that it was just a joke PJ came up with and that's bloody annoying.

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I would point out that Tolkien never says dwarven women have beards within The Lord of the Rings text, which is what he's talking about in the video, the other stuff in the video clearly a mistake he made.

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Originally Posted by Pontin_Finnberry

I would point out that Tolkien never says dwarven women have beards within The Lord of the Rings text, which is what he's talking about in the video, the other stuff in the video clearly a mistake he made.

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Don't make excuses for him. He went so far as to say there was "no textual justification" (untrue), that it was just a movie thing, a joke PJ included (untrue) and that fans were just bizarrely fascinated by it. That's where he's clearly playing games, It's been discussed often enough here that by now it should be common knowledge - it's very clearly implied by that line in Appendix A which says that Dwarf-women looked so like male Dwarves (who did all have beards) that others couldn't tell than apart and if there were any doubt about the interpretation of that line it's confirmed outright in something else Tolkien wrote which can be found in HoME. Nobody who knew the material and was being honest would talk like that or try to make out it was no more than a joke. It might be a quirky detail, but it was one of Tolkien's quirky original details and nobody else's. It was well enough known that Terry Pratchett could parody it in one of his early Discworld novels, more than thirty years ago, knowing that Tolkien fans would get the reference.

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Definitely before the forging of the Rings, but she was still a child in Elvish terms. The aim was to have her be a suitable age to marry Elrond later. (The Nature of Middle-earth refers)

That's significant because whatever else, Tolkien didn't apparently imagine Elf-women who'd had children going off to fight (as per Laws and Customs among the Eldar) so that puts an implied end date on "Galadriel: Warrior Princess". You should allow that she can change from the First Age to the Second, not just from the Second to the Third.


What, you can't tell the difference between central Italy and Morocco either?

And all three clans of the Edain would be proto-Europeans, because everyone we see as 'Middle Men' in the books (descended from peoples related to the Edain) are that too.

The Numenoreans had a thing for racial purity. Yes, it's later shown to have been a mistake that hastened the decline of the Dunedain (along with their obsession with death) but it's something they absolutely did have for a long, long time. So no immigrants either - when the Numenoreans started to turn nasty they full-on colonised Middle-earth and exploited the hell out of it so it was very much the other way around. Again, not shown to be a good thing but it's part of the story that it *was* a thing.

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This isn't completely relevant, but I'm going to post something I also wrote elsewhere:
Middle-earth was meant to be all of Earth, some of the characters are even explicitly from Harad/South/Africa. Only the Rohirrim were thought to be ancestors of Anglo-Saxons. That leaves all the other humans. Plus obviously there aren’t any Elves or Dwarves or Hobbits around today. Also Tolkien was anti###### and even writes about the Kinstrife where some of Gondor being upset about a foreigner marrying the king of Gondor and how the villains of that story embraces racial superiority while the heroes were against it. And for those who complain about new characters… not only did Tolkien keep this era so vague that new characters would be necessary if it’s ever told, they obviously never read Tolkien’s foundational academic essay that basically created the fantasy genre called On Fairy-stories, especially his thoughts there on the “cauldron of storytelling.” Also, it’s really not hard when the Harfoots are said to be darker-skinned Hobbits by Tolkien, the already-mentioned Haradrim plus the people of Rhun and Khand, how the Dwarven princess is probably just from one of the lesser-known Dwarven clans (we only really see 3 of the 7, the other 4 are in the east) and the other clans of Elves like the Avari and other Silvan elves who broke away in the March to the west. Even that quote critics keep repeating isn’t even a Tolkien quote. In short, the people complaining about people of color in this show have zero in-universe or out-of-universe basis and don’t know Tolkien or his writings that well.


The Edain/Dunedain are not meant to become the AngloSaxons, just the Rohirrim.

As for gender roles, there are always meant to be exceptions, Tolkien himself said they aren't hard rules. He also referred to Galadriel as a man-maiden and an Amazon warrior, and talked about how she stood equal with the princes of the Noldor after Finwe's death.

Tolkien:
"In all such things, not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal - unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that for the nissi the making of things new is for the most part shown in the forming of their children, so that invention and change is otherwise mostly brought about by the neri. There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a ner can think or do, or others which only a nis is concerned. [...]
But all these things, and other matters of labor and play, or of deeper knowledge concerning being and the life of the World, may at different times be pursued by any among the Noldor, be they neri or nissi."

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Originally Posted by Faethyn

This isn't completely relevant, but I'm going to post something I also wrote elsewhere:
Middle-earth was meant to be all of Earth, some of the characters are even explicitly from Harad/South/Africa.

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Some of the *people* are (Men, at least). Not characters, though. There's a difference between the two.

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Only the Rohirrim were thought to be ancestors of Anglo-Saxons. That leaves all the other humans.

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That's not all there is to it. We have the Edain, who were plainly thought of as 'European' because their Dunedain descendants are described as pale-skinned. And we have the Middle Men, those whose ancestors had been related to the Edain, of which the various branches of Northmen are examples (the Rohirrim included) but which also includes the Men of Eriador (the Bree-landers and the Dunlendings, who shared common ancestry with the Men of the White Mountains) and the locals in Gondor, who'd been there before the Dunedain arrived. These are all 'Europeans' of one sort or another, with the Men of the White Mountains and their descendants seemingly resembling the Celts. The locals in Gondor are by implication more 'Mediterranean' types, with Gondor being compared to central Italy. So with the familiar parts of Middle-earth being a proxy Europe, it's plain what the inhabitants should broadly look like. I should also mention the Lossoth, who seem to resemble the Sami. There are the Druedain as well but they're very much their own thing, distinct from other Men in general (in the same sort of way the hobbits were).

Then there's everybody else: the Wild Men, a.k.a. the Men of Darkness, the Easterlings and Haradrim. The more nearby Easterlings might include an equivalent of the Slavic and Turkic peoples plus the various other peoples of the Near and Middle East. Looking south, the typical Haradrim are portrayed as broadly North African and dark-skinned, with some few being from Far Harad (= sub-Saharan Africa, it seems) and hence being black.

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Also, it’s really not hard when the Harfoots are said to be darker-skinned Hobbits by Tolkien

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Slightly darker, in the way some Europeans are. It's all relative to a given context. The Shire is a proxy England, its inhabitants inspired by the Victorian country-folk of Tolkien's childhood (made small to show their general small-mindedness). Remember, all of this was originally written for an English audience so it's couched in terms that audience would relate to. Some English people are very pale and get sunburned a lot, others can get a nice tan with no bother at all.

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As for gender roles, there are always meant to be exceptions, Tolkien himself said they aren't hard rules. He also referred to Galadriel as a man-maiden and an Amazon warrior, and talked about how she stood equal with the princes of the Noldor after Finwe's death.

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And that would be in the First Age, yes? She'd married and had a child since and certainly in Tolkien's mind that made a difference. If you're going to quote from Laws and Customs among the Eldar, don't just cherry-pick the bits that suit you.

This an interesting post if its true seems Christopher Tolkien had request for Amazon on the TV series Reddit - LOTR on Prime - Rules that Christopher Tolkien requested Amazon

For those wondering source the group called Fellowship of Fans did an interview with a showrunner last year who pitched ideas to Amazon but never made it to making the Series, of course the interview had to be taken down for reasons, but now they dropped this bit of info.

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Originally Posted by Pontin_Finnberry

This an interesting post if its true seems Christopher Tolkien had request for Amazon on the TV series

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The first two are obvious (that's like Continuity 101) but I wouldn't agree with the one about repurposing lines - we got some really good scenes in the LOTR movies that relied on that so I wouldn't be precious about who said what when (I'd consider that artistic license in an adaptation, a good thing if done well). But that was in the context of LOTR itself so I wouldn't be keen on them borrowing lines from that to drop into another tale entirely. Not well-known ones, anyway.

Empire magazine are doing an article on Rings of Power in their latest issue (out tomorrow). They have a quote from John Howe here - https://www.empireonline.com/tv/news...ber-exclusive/

I'll pinch a bit as my own teaser. “This isn’t the Middle-earth you remember,” Howe tells Empire in the Summer Preview issue. “This is a world that’s very vibrant. The elves are not hidden away in Mirkwood or lingering in Rivendell. They’re busy constructing kingdoms."

Since this thread has appeared today... I really gotta ask what's your reaction after the newest news/leak by Fellowship of Fans about Adar the villain of S1? In case you haven't heard... Adar is the fallen elf... looking for some kind of powerful talisman... Adar means father apparently... and orcs will shout "Adar, Adar, Adar" during the battle... YIKES!

Was leaked here: https://twitter.com/FellowshipFans/s...DSveWKjpsqAAAA
There was also the article I saw that suggested there will be some kind of tension between Adar and Sauron, and gosh I really hate how they seem to be treating Sauron here... like he doesn't even matter, like he has no authority powers, he is someone 'in hiding' or maybe got a memory erasure or whatever, and the mighty warrior Galadriel must search for him all across the land (excuse me, is that MMO or TV series? Sauron the missing roving threat?), not to mention that entire 'who is Sauron' drama that they'll probably do for 3 seasons. What I wanted was Sauron the Aspiring New Dark Lord - but Careful, actually trying to do 'some good' or 'unification' under his rule keeping orcs on a short leash so maybe he tells himself he's better than daddy Morgoth? - so maybe we could hear from him/see him in his true form in the East sometimes, learn his motivations so got more character than movies/books, but otherwise he'll only show up disguised in the West of Middle-earth and elves are of course oblivious to him and Eastern lands but he may come into conflict with Numenor. Oh, and my hope was some vampire vibes once he goes full dark occult with sacrifices at Numenorian court where I would be fine even with *some* sexualization if limited to that story thread only. (so a bit like what lotro did with Merrevail - not everybody likes it but some like me do and think that's a nice touch) But so far... they seem to be doing Sauron dirty...

Personally, I agree with Radhruin_EU here about many things including the 'representation' -> LOTRO has done representation better and showed respect for many different cultures with cool, deep cultural inspiration but at the same time staying true to the setting/historical timeframes. It's not a quota, it's natural, and once we get to Eastern lands there will be LOTS more, can't wait! Amazon had this amazing opportunity natively from the start with Second Age setting: Sauron starting scheming in Mordor/the East, Harad Far Harad, perhaps more, and Numenor with fleets/colonies of course. Even with dwarves and elves if in moderation and well-placed on the map, I wouldn't object - but nope, OF COURSE they went with that lazy 'self-insertion' of how the *American* society 'actually looks like' that they'll probably apply to all of the Western kingdoms shown (and even then they'll probably forget about Asian looking people..). So they just blew it, seems like it. So was not really interested in the show at first...

UNTIL NOW. Because that Adar idea sounds like something LOTRO's devs could have come up with, a nice twist/untold story but deep in the lore. Can't help but see some Amarthiel vibes here... Or Skorgrim. Only with that tv series they're turning it up to eleven which is a good lore-inspired fanfic at least so something 'cool' to watch... or something interesting enough to make fun of at worst. Maybe the orcs will be the most compelling characters in that story who knows :P Though a part of me still can't believe this is real even though it sparked my interest... because of how needless it is in a setting that has plenty of original narratives/themes to go on. To go with LOTRO's analogy, this sounds like Amazon crew doesn't even want to adapt Second Age events in all their glory and nuance (except the ones like elven kingdoms/Moria/Numenor maybe, purely for well-known locations that they are and the pandering factor! pandering factor being why they included hobbits to begin with..) but instead write the story for 'Mordor after Fall' setting... or something like that... The equivalent would be LOTRO's devs deciding Battle of the Pelennor gets very minimal exposure, is poorly done there is hardly any charge of the Rohhirim shown, and the actual focus shifts to Gothmog's suddenly powering up and wrecking havoc on Harad with armies stolen from Sauron... your character is joined by other heroes who will create a 'fellowship' such as one of the Blue wizards (because gotta have a mysterious wizardly guy with a beard), Independent Female Warrior Eowyn with Faramir barely mentioned or mayor of Michel Delving recently on his way to buy a perfect pie but got involved in all of this, oh and later a character will appear who will tell us that Frodo actually destroyed the ring that's why they saw lots of fire in the sky last week or that Aragorn was crowned/started to reclaim Arnor so the story proper is 'covered'

very interesting blogpost from Shaun Gunner, Tolkien Society: https://www.tolkiensociety.org/blog/...-love-tolkien/

The Funkenflug translated it into german: https://funkenflug.ag/ich-lasse-mich...d-hingabe-ein/

of course he loves them, he's no different than the guys from the one ring.net of fellowship of fans XD hoping to get in their good graces, but then again the Tolkien society has taken a turn for the worse since Chris Tolkien passed away.

Yeah Shaun Gunner is just one of many Content creators on Tolkien last week that got invited by Amazon to London to meet the showrunners and see some footage of the show and take a tour of Oxford, and many seemed to like meeting the Showrunners more then seeing the footage, and noted they seem understand exactly what they are doing and understand Tolkien well enough based on Q and A they had.

you can see all the statements made here by everyone who was invited https://www.tolkienguide.com/modules...?post_id=39291

of course there will always be some who say they are just saying this, but no they are not, it is legit reactions, one of them i followed for years who can't even lie or make stuff up cause could tell a mile away.

of course they say they love them! they won't be invited to any other event if they say otherwise. Don't you find it strange how even if they had criticism, suddenly they are all like, oh! they truly love Tolkien, they are doing this for love of the author and bulls**** like that. I don't buy it, and nobody with a bit of brain would buy it. If these showrunners loved Tolkien and hs work, they wouldn't try to "fix" it by adding their whack fanfiction int it (quoting them: the story tolkien never wrote). these guys won't know Tolkien even if hit in the head with his whole writings. Wake up please...

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Originally Posted by Pontin_Finnberry

it is legit reactions, one of them i followed for years who can't even lie or make stuff up cause could tell a mile away.

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I can get behind some of them (or even all of them) being legit. but what I always keep in mind is... even without other ulterior motives (like remaining in amazon's good graces) some people are just very positive / soft-minded in their approach to things so it's easy to convince them. The showrunners talking about Tolkien with passion or even able to quote things from Tolkien doesn't mean it'll reflect on all the decisions behind their show. Even if the showrunners were perfect (which I doubt they are, they clearly have 'agendas' and their own ideas about correcting Tolkien) there are other among the staff and execs themselves involved in this production... Besides, someone HAD TO come up with the 'superfans' idea (and shoot it!), it didn't really originate out of the top exec's hat

Besides, I don't really care that "it actually feels like Middle-earth" "is visually impressive" (which sounds like "it actually rivals PJ's scenography" while my original hope was that they'll actually go a VERY different route, so like lotro) First and foremost I care about writing, story arcs, world 'integrity', story focus, things they'll give more exposure too (even though seems needless) and things they'll - which is a possibility - completely ignore even though they were perfect to explore with lots of nuances.

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Originally Posted by elvenes

of course they say they love them! they won't be invited to any other event if they say otherwise. Don't you find it strange how even if they had criticism, suddenly they are all like, oh! they truly love Tolkien, they are doing this for love of the author and bulls**** like that. I don't buy it, and nobody with a bit of brain would buy it. If these showrunners loved Tolkien and hs work, they wouldn't try to "fix" it by adding their whack fanfiction int it (quoting them: the story tolkien never wrote). these guys won't know Tolkien even if hit in the head with his whole writings. Wake up please...

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The thing about puff-pieces about how the show-runners / writers / whoever supposedly love the source material is that they're content-free. It's just positive spin, there's no way to tell if it's true or not (and even if it is, whether the people who genuinely love the source material will in practice simply get overruled by the studio all the time). We've seen this happen *way* too often now with other big IPs. And like you say, their apparent urge to 'modernise' Tolkien reeks to high heaven.

I read that blog post, and I still don’t see the show as being nothing more than a fantasy version of Star Trek Discovery, and that is not meant as a compliment.

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

The thing about puff-pieces about how the show-runners / writers / whoever supposedly love the source material is that they're content-free. It's just positive spin, there's no way to tell if it's true or not (and even if it is, whether the people who genuinely love the source material will in practice simply get overruled by the studio all the time). We've seen this happen *way* too often now with other big IPs. And like you say, their apparent urge to 'modernise' Tolkien reeks to high heaven.

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What I have seen so far is one trailer and that could have been any fantasy show. I like fantasy shows but it needs to be seen how much modern vision they brought into it. If it's to much I won't watch it. If it stays true to Tolkien and his vision, that's a plus. I like Lotro's extra stories but they fit right in the lore.

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Originally Posted by wispsong

I like Lotro's extra stories but they fit right in the lore.

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Which is why that Adar reveal I mentioned above did sparked my interest, reminds me a bit of lotro's original story angles. Although... it's already a given there will be lots of 'modern' stuff and 'correcting Tolkien' that doesn't fit into Tolkien OR - at best - is prioritized over the actual, more iconic, more important content of the Second Age and Tolkien characters that we know of. I wish I was wrong but... well...

More from Empire magazine this to be released June 9th you can read here and see covers Empire’s The Lord Of The Rings: The Rings Of Power World-Exclusive Covers Revealed

So gotta pay £6.75 to hear more nice :) It's funny how they haven't released anything substantial since that first trailer and everything we get now is either under the vows of silence or a magazine paywall. Or teased by a favorable group of fans but not official... or putting random rings of power covers as covers of LOTR books on amazon platform...
Some interesting tactics they got there....

Oh just checked Fellowship of Fans on twitter, sounds like there'll be a new trailer soon... this is going to be good...

Also, what they leaked about Celebrimbor and The (?) forging:

Celebrimbor’s story arc and involvement won’t begin properly until around episode 4 and onwards - halfway through the season. Celebrimbor and the Dwarves will forge rings together at some point near the end of season 1. In one of the sound stages there is a “forging room” set which is part of the Dwarven mines and the rings will be forged there. Separate source described it as a “rocky chamber”. Celebrimbor is alerted about the threat and growing fear of Adar in the East and wants to be prepared.

Sounds like Adar completely replaces Sauron here in Mordor or something... and they start forging rings because they fear Adar...... which is sooo off.... and Sauron won't be even revealed here yet but there will be this ridiculous Galadriel's "quest" in search of him... because apparently a powerful maia needs to remain in hiding or something and the creatures of Morgoth are led by a fallen elf not a powerful maia. Sure, 'makes sense'

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Oh just checked Fellowship of Fans on twitter, sounds like there'll be a new trailer soon... this is going to be good...

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Yeah and others have sources too that a Trailer might be coming in next few weeks, we also have to remember what this series is based on, so a lot of new with old stuff will be added and changed, Its based on Tolkien's writings rather then a full novel as there is no real full Second Age story, its all over the place.