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Biggger number = better huh? Very nuanced. I've no doubt Warden will be a 'good' class after these changes, but effectiveness isn't the same thing as fun. This new Warden doesn't look fun. Blue is full of tedium and red is stripped down and oversimplified.
5% is too low.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnnMacMahal;8175782
Never Surrender is now a limited-time skill. Using it will give you the Never Surrender effect you know and love, but with a few changes: the effect only lasts for 20 seconds, its health restoration will only trigger if you fall below 5% morale, and it gives you a short mitigation buff for a period after the heal is triggered.
Its base cooldown has been reduced to 5 minutes, and the blue-line trait reduces it a further 3 minutes (to a 2m expected cooldown for tanks) meaning you'll be able to use it much more frequently (though not back to back).[/COLOR
Make duration 30 sec or change triger to 30%
Otherwise to get the efect we need to tell healers to stop healing, so it trigers, or we need to play greedy and activate under 5% hp. (dead in most cases because lots of boss attacks do 20-30% hp hits)
Not good change, adjust pls
As mentioned in post above, blue will be "good" class but why make it OVER complicated ? We already feel special so no extra fancies needed.
Even less when rest of the tanks achive the same /better efect by smashing 3-5 keys...
Shall we get extra % loot chanse when play on warden as compensation for all the sweat ?
Im serious.
I guess someone forgot to read about the never surrender duration tracery.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIZDQK
Oh well.
Im speaking of BASE durartion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eadondryt
I dont get why NS was changed at 1st place.
So now to activate its efect we will need to literaly die....
Would be nice if there is no duration so efect trigers on fatal hit and put furter use of efect /not on skill/ on cd. Similar to Shield Tactics.
Last NS change make skill tedious to use. For both wardens and healers. Because there is no point to keep someone alive and waste your power, when there is a chanse he will get healed back to 60/80% hp.
But to know this healers need to look for ONE MORE effect on tank. Or to WONDER will we use it or not ....
So please dont gime me BS like "someone forgot"
If its your first time playing with such skills and have zero awareness of its mechanic, its your problem.
There are similar skills in other games / if not the same, but there is a visual efect added too. Like big wings or bubble, so both healer and off tank know that efect is on and there is no reason to breake fingers to keep target alive, or to off taunt and literaly kill the efect of the skill.
With this nick i guess it needs you even less.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCaptain
All you can do is to spit hate, and you are not even good at it.
No need to follow my posts and sh/t under.
I think just making sure the heal and the mit increase trigger also when time runs out if it wasn't consumed before would just fix all those problems you suggest?Quote:
Originally Posted by PIZDQK
Ofc i will but im not "silly" enough to believe we get such buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kander
To be more intuition rewarding it can be changed this way. If the efect triger you get 100% of the healing skill provide.
If skill is used and duration expire without efect being trigered, you are heaed 50% of the amount.
One can dream right ...
A miracle! Looking forward to confirming this on BR3.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnnMacMahal
I'd really appreciate some communication about how the current issue of "always use the strongest gambits first" will be addressed, or at least why it was decided that that is no longer viewed as a concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnnMacMahal
I said it in a previous post, but I always saw Warden as a class built around "building up" or "working towards greater things." I feel that without the gradual increase in the length of gambits, or at least having to vary the lengths of gambits you use, this identity is lost, and the Warden pushes closer towards "<insert other class of this role> but with more button presses."
With gambit chains going "chaos mode" where any 4 gambits make a chain, I still don't see any incentive to use shorter than 4/5 length gambits unless you get all your strong bleeds/heals (depending on dps/tank).
I don't mean this to be derogatory towards the efforts made to update the class. I really like most of the overall direction, and the Advanced Technique is a very elegant solution to "how to make Gambit chains matter."
I know my opinion alone is not going to change the devteam's methods, but I've seen others that share this concern, and I think we'd all appreciate a little more communication on the thought process for why nothing matters besides the number of gambits, instead of some of the other proposed solutions of completing a set of any 3 lengths in any order, or in either upward or downward direction, or one of the other proposed solutions.
Was alays like this. Get signature or elite mob/ to not die from 1st hit. Get any dps class / champ-rk-hunt, even burgler or red mini. See how much keys they need to press to kill that mob. Il say 2 -6. Also notice the time they need to kill that mob. Now try with Warden. triple the key smash. Also around 1 min dots to kick in. So at the end we have 2-5 seconds vs 15-20 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levanthalas
If warden stay at this stage, once dots build and set on target, his dmg should be like 20% stronger than any other dps class. To compensate the time gap you need to apply those dots. And this is the bare minimum. Yes to counter "only warden dps raids" they can make dots stackable only 2 times, so max 2 wardens per raid or fellow. This way it MAY work. We will stil lack dps on short fight but we will be atleast useful in boss fight.
Adding burst ST dmg + some mediocre spiky aoe wont solve the problem we have on live servers. Also those are not ready to go skills, those are gambits which need to be build. Add gcd+ few lag spikes, and trash will be dead before you apply your second mastery... No one care trash anyway, even champs hardly aoe out of burgler cleanse phase, or reflect sends them to respawn point. Even in the future you add some new mechanics / which i doubpt/ why take warden when can just go with one more champ.
Imo even with good intention and some changes in the right direction, this update will make warden more "viable" but zero desirable to play.
Too much micro menagment. Too much fast fights / take SV boss 3 for example/ adds or fellow dead before you able to apply sh/t on adds as wrd - even with combat memory.... Add and the 5-10 sec lag spikes to this picture and you get a class you play small grp content + festivals.
I hope im wrong, but hardly.
It was noted that if wardens want to be actually selected for a DPS role, then their DPS has to be competitive with the likes of champs and hunters. In most raids, adds die so fast that by the time the warden has "ramped up" the things are dead and they need to change targets and start over. So more burst damage was necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levanthalas
Otherwise you end up with a nice concept, that is dead in the water because nobody will want to take a warden to any content as DPS.
Forcing people to use the small gambits first, has the same effect of "locking you in" to a set rotation for marginal benefits, because the small gambits can't outperform the big ones, otherwise they would be meta and the problem inverted. Basically, rock and a hard place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eadondryt
Warden is a DoT class. No matter how much they improve our initial dmg, we wont be able to compete with classes like cham or hunt. So improving the class in this direction is a mistake. What need to be done is to make class be a "meta" single target dps. Something like hunter but wilth like 10% more dmg output to compensate the mele range. And done. A little dots buff and a chanse Lasting Impresion burst dmg to happen on each bleed pules / like 10% so we wont need to wait 30 sec and to not lose the efectt if we reaply bleeds before they expire. And that was all we needed. And we get a compleate class rework, which compleatly change how wrd play and make the class even more "advanced" than before.
About forcing ppl. About small gambit first. What we have on live is just the bonus to initial dmg of the following skill. Which is MEH and no one use small to big in rotation. If they rly wanted it to be rewarding they should make the sequence increase the bleed dmg from next gambit of the line, not the initial.
Why im even trying. As always we will get what they give us, so i guess we just wait for u35 to come live, test and stick with the class, or rerol
If the warden has no burst damage, then it will not be taken to raids that need fast add clearing. It does not need to be in the same tier as champ for AoE damage, but it at least has to contribute. Otherwise the warden is dead weight until you get to a boss, at which point you might as well just take another hunter, which is what is happening at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIZDQK
So yes a boost in this area was most definitely needed (see cashout mechanics) and overall improvement in our up front damage.
False. Now we are taken because of buffing/debuffing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eadondryt
Aso if we provide this 2 + good sustain on boss, we will have guaranteed slot for sure.
A boost in THIS area makes us jack of all trades, master of none. We wont replace any dps class with this changes, wont even go close to their dmg output.
Now when double cast chance of Market and Diminishing targets is removed/ skills too +AM buff, we are just another dps class, which do less dmg than hunt and champ
IF blue line become viable no one will take red warden, and vice versa. One is enough to provide the debuffs.
Similar to beorning. Yellow bear cover the bees debuf and there is no need of red or blue. (or second bear)
Sad times ahead
When are we likely to see set bonuses for our armour updated?
I fully agree with the first point, but not the 2nd. We have strength both in AoE and single-target, so the focus of our class shouldn't shift one way or the other. Also giving us a 10% boost over Hunter to compensate for being in melee ignores the fact we're also ranged. After the changes they plan on ranged gambits having the same effects as melee, as well- so Hunter+10%dmg would never fly.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIZDQK
Remember, devs each have a plaque on the wall of their work-space that says "Hunter is King". No other class can have as many useful abilities nor as much dmg. Ever! Anybody else comes close, it's time for an emergency nerf. XD
This is pretty cool, finally.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnnMacMahal
Can we please close the gap between high elves and every other race now? It's such an extreme crutch for players who don't want to play an elf warden (ugly), but are still endgame players who want to compete. An extra 5% light damage from high elves is so overpowered. At least with the weapon bonuses, the customization still remains by using that weapon and cosmetically covering it. Limiting a class to a race completely hinders customization (huge part of any MMO).
Yeah I'm really glad I don't main my Warden anymore. Red line is significantly less interesting now without the stance shuffle and StM and the change to how Masteries work along with much longer DoT durations. Blue line has like 7 gambits you cast out of combat per pull and offers nothing good to differentiate it from other tanks. I have no idea how anyone can look at the state of buffing in blue line or the Brink of Victory radius and think this is acceptable or has any reason to exist. It's intentional tedium/qualify of life diminishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exceptional
There's this too. Which is a good indicator of how bland and unsophisticated this design is.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIZDQK
The weird thing is they went out of their way to force this design. For example, there's no reason you couldn't move the Adroit Maneuver Induction buff to be red or blue line specific. That at minimum could help guarantee a place for either spec, and would be a very low effort change. It could maybe work as an AT cash out on Fire At Will or something, which would definitely be more exciting than the milquetoast AT cash out variants we have now. I've posted more interesting ideas before but I can clearly see there's no real ambition in this redesign, probably too resource intensive seeing how they mostly just shuffle around values instead, yet they don't recycle good existing mechanics that people specifically wanted Wardens for? There's something really wrong here from a design perspective, where you prune the popular, unique, and celebrated aspects of the class and add generic chores to replace them.
Like anyone is going to go "Oh wow ANOTHER armor rend/gut punch variant with a worse gimmick, this one you need to spam reapply! And on the most GCD hungry class in the game! Where do I sign up?" Not.
Warning shot right now SAYS its +5% outgoing dmg. If that is incorrect id be very happy. If it is NOT incorrect then the 5% outgoing dmg is greater than the -5% inc dmg we get from suppression (I will be testing this) Outgoing dmg is done upfront. Inc dmg is after your mitigations so its not 5%. I cant provide numbers right now obviously because BR is down and its different on live.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eadondryt
Do you think you can stop with the nastiness and name calling? Its really not necessary. Id be happy for you to show me the warden tanking like HoA B2. Tanking trash mobs or 3/6 mans is not where the issue lies (except maybe high tier 6 mans). Feel free to look me up on BR when it goes live.
Thank you. Thats much better and makes this more of an emergency skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnnMacMahal
That seems backwards (taunt vs stun on shield/fist) maybe just because i tend to think of "fist" as threat line. Is it a threat copy now or no?Quote:
Originally Posted by OnnMacMahal
Please no. Put it back. Why change it at all?? Healers ALREADY hate it because you have to drop so low before it triggers and they have no idea you have an emergency "bubble" active.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnnMacMahal
Any change to get these to change based on spec (blue/red) to be more role specific (like threat vs dmg). As it is two of those are pretty useless in blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnnMacMahal
Interesting, whats the %?Quote:
Originally Posted by OnnMacMahal
Yay ..... butQuote:
Originally Posted by OnnMacMahal
Only tanking specific one i see here is restorative cooldown. Can we please get something like FT duration, Restorative pulses. + % bonuses to some of our tanking skills etc.
And once again ..... Please PLEASE put NS back where it was.
I would count the morale taps to now include healing as well as damage tanking related.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirlat
Also the never surrender tracery
And the shield gambit buff duration
In regards to your previous post, I’d be happy to meet up on BR and show you what’s up.
The existing/live implementation of Never Surrender has an incredibly long cooldown which, coupled with the fact that it often procs when you aren't in serious danger of dying, reduces its overall value for a warden tank. Conversely, its limitless duration means you almost always get to use it twice in short succession, as long as you haven't been doing anything for a while. This makes the skill a lot more efficacious, as long as you've been afk or at least haven't had your survivability meaningfully challenged in the past 10 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIZDQK
Changing the effect to a duration effect with a narrower proc window has allowed me to also lower the cooldown considerably while also preventing wardens from getting to use NS twice in a row. If you click the skill and manage to never drop below 5%, you still gain the benefit of knowing you're safe for that entire window of time, and you'll get the skill back 90-100 seconds later, which is considerably faster than ever before.
I don't buy this argument. You could make the same claim about any significant defensive cooldown on any class. Obviously the ability to use a defensive cooldown doesn't make everyone in the party pack up their things and walk away from their keyboards. Our guardian might pop Warrior's Heart, or our captain might hit Last Stand. If you know they have it off cooldown, that means you have to worry less about healing them as a priority target. If a DPS has bloodlet and you know your tank has a cooldown in their pocket, that's extra assurance. Never Surrender is no different.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIZDQK
I don't think long gambits being a higher priority is a problem in and of itself. I'd say it's a problem if some gambits are never worth using in any circumstance. Every gambit should be at least situationally useful. But trying to stop people from using long gambits before short gambits is just inverting the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levanthalas
I myself proposed the other possibilities, and in fact the first Bullroarer period basically forced you to use short>long gambits. The overwhelming response I heard from players at that time was that it was very frustrating to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levanthalas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eadondryt
NS cooldown isnt new, it just moved from blue line-> traceries for cooldown.
What i meant is they are very generic +healing/dmg that are not specific to tanking (other than Rest). Id just like to see some "specific" tanking traceries. I did totally miss the shield gambit buff duration though so that is another one albeit kinda generic again. The changes just all seem so bland and not really tied to role. Like the Way of skills, only one of the three is really useful
tanking (+dmg, +heal, +dmgovertime).
Ill be on today once they open - Corahghar
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnnMacMahal
There are some major differences there. First LS not only prevents death once, it does over an extended period of time so healers can refocus. WH has a bubble and a moral bar thats obvious that they are currently "safe" (and a delayed heal when they pop out) ... wardens get a single pop skill that if you go low you get one heal, then its gone. Healers cant refocus because its a one pop, they dont know when it will / has popped. And now it may not even pop if you dont go extremely low.
I get the twice in a row argument but Id rather you just turn it into a 50% moral bubble (instead of 50% heal) if you are going to make it a clicky - time duration, that way at least we should get some benefit out of it without having to almost die first.
I've mentioned fire-damage a few times now. Looking at our BR3 updates specifically traits and traceries, I'm left wondering why introduce this and not give us options through one or both of those avenues to increase its abilities?
Personally, I'm sick of just spamming light-damage DoTs & SoV(SoF)/Desolation. Let's make both Spear & Fist gambits serve a purpose by way of damage type.
It's not too late, please consider adding +fire-damage type to our Red line traits and at least one fire-damage type tracery.
We have both fire & light oils, correct? Let's make both viable through choice.
https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.b93ca97a...pid=ImgRaw&r=0