Lifetime Account Members Thread

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Originally Posted by Aneres

As a f2p/premium account player, I have found nothing in the Store that gives others an advantage over me. Yet. This is the first and only MMO I've been associated with that doesn't sell god mode in-store.

The only necessary Store purchases my Premium account sees is Virtue and Trait slots. This game appears to be built to be playable at the basest of abilities. Frankly this game is on the easy side, as MMO's go. All VIP/Lifetime does (in my perception) is reduce the time needed to achieve. Which already is amazingly fast. Seriously... I spent 3 years on a game where 3% of an experience bar a DAY was a good day.... I've only been playing LOTRO for 4 months and I'm going to be lvl 75 after dinner tonight, with part of my Draigoch set already waiting for me and enough gold to buy a Worn Symbol...

Store sells what? Cosmetics? Mounts? 10 stat points on top of my 1200? Yeaaaaah not god-mode... lol

/end my f2p 2cents

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Fair enough, you have been playing the game for only four months... so you cannot compare the 'before' and 'after' effects the implementation of F2P and the store has had on the quality and direction of the game. The game you have signed up to play is the one you are getting so you are happy.

Perhaps you can stop and think for a moment that those who bought a lifetime subscription to a subscription based game and find themselves in an MT model where the game design is being changed step by step away from the quality of the old subscription model have a valid reason to be less happy.

As for the length of time it has taken you to get to cap... it used to take much longer. Over the years they have repeatedly changed the levelling curve so that players move through the game faster. The earlier content is some of the best in the game but is often missed by those who start and hit level 75 within four months.

Simply put as you did not experience the content prior to F2P you have no basis for comparison in how things have changed.

And the people who grew up with the phonograph may have hated when the LP came out. And those LP lovers too, anguished at the invention of the 8-track. And ohhh how terrible the industry then forces us to use cassettes. Now what's this futuristic Compact Disc hoodoo? They just want us to spend more money! Funny, everyone still got to listen to music...


Micro-transaction model is the current (and apparently) future model of a majority of online games. It's not even restricted to MMO's anymore - Team Fortress anyone? Battlefield Heroes? Anything Xbox?

I agree it must suck when your expectations are not upheld indefinitely. I'm sure my outlook will change too, when my expectations change, or when the parameters of the game move outside my expectations.

The point of my post was that the in-game store doesn't sell anything that gives a genuine VIP/lifer advantage over a Premium/F2P player. Yet. When Worn Symbols stop dropping in game and are only sold in-store, I'm sure I'll be horribly outraged.

If someone wanted to buy exclusivity, Aeria Games is a much better place for such indulgence...

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Originally Posted by Aneres

The point of my post was that the in-game store doesn't sell anything that gives a genuine VIP/lifer advantage over a Premium/F2P player.

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A monster-player who does not use the store must earn ranks (gained by killing freeps) before buying skills. A store user, regardless of subscription tier, may purchase every skill available regardless of rank. In this case, the store does offer a measurable and undeniable advantage.

Also, Turbine has started the process of removing features from the game solely so they can be re-added as a store-only pay-per-use consumable. Not an advantage under the strictest definition of the word, as it's not attainable in-game at all, but it still comes too close for comfort to the same tactics that traditional cash shops use.

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Originally Posted by imptown

i wish i had never given Turbine my lifetime money.

some players had been asking Turbine on the forum boards early on if the game was going to go F2P/pay to win. we were emphatically told no. Turbine continued to lie to everyone, even after Massively caught them trying to hire an RMT manager.that they lied was bad enough, but then when the market started, it was obvious that other than cosmetic items were going to be sold.

it's not a matter of what you can buy in this game, it's a matter of what you can't buy.
we all have our own way of viewing this pay to win method, but it's a dishonest way to run a game in my opinion.and i find the company to be dishonest in the way lifetimers were treated.

for lifetimers who did not want to be involved in this money sink, we should have been given the option to cash out.

i haven't really played since the game went F2P/pay to win.

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You DID cash out. You have a forum date of Feb 2007 and played until F2P came to be, Nov of 2010. That's 45 months at a minimum of $9.99 a month amounting to roughly $450 of play time for $200-$300 depending on the lifetime price.

How were lifetimers treated? Well, short of the relic removal scrolls which the stipend of points + the bonus points would have easily covered, nothing has changed. No one is forced to use the store and as a Free VIP Conversion, you get 500 points a month that was never included in the lifetime deal.

The only way the game can be a money sink to a lifetime account is IF they choose to purchase stuff in the store beyond what the game includes (perks). Otherwise it's the same game it always was with more players enjoying it.

Game never lied since they have a disclosure as most games do that they are subject to change in game play as the company pleases. That's what you signed up for, that's exactly what you got.

So after playing 45 months for roughly $4.50-$6.50 a month when non lifetime accounts paid $9.99-$14.99 a month you feel cheated instead of feeling like you got in on a good deal?

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Originally Posted by Hammerfast

And the only people who now have anything to show, bought it. Outright. Plain and simple. And those who didn't? Well, who cares? Being able to buy everything has totally devalued any effort you might have put out.

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Sorry, gotta call complete bollocks on that one. Can you buy Thaurlach's Blade? Nanu's Hiding Place? Cloak of Shadow and Flame? Many, many other rare items I can't think of right now...

You don't like the store, I get that, but go easy on the hyperbole.

I think one problem with gamers is that a lot of them forget that a game is just that. A game. This thread is a really good example.

Seriously, if you don't like a gaming company then bashing it on it's forums is really not good for your mental health. Do something that makes you happy. Stress=health problems.

This thread makes me /sadface.

I'm a lifetimer. Have definitely gotten my moneys worth.
and on top of that.. I get 500 Turbine points a month.
I can use those Turbine points to pay for expansions too if i save them up.
I have spent money on Turbine points too, I bought a cool looking horse.

This thread is everything that is wrong with the world, actually.

If JFK was still alive today, would he say," Ask not what your game can do for you, Ask what YOU can do for your game."


Been playing since April 07, won't be stopping anytime soon.

I say this as a Lifetime subscriber, I HAVE RECEIVED MY MONEYS WORTH.

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Originally Posted by Menathradon

This thread makes me /sadface.

I'm a lifetimer. Have definitely gotten my moneys worth.
and on top of that.. I get 500 Turbine points a month.
I can use those Turbine points to pay for expansions too if i save them up.
I have spent money on Turbine points too, I bought a cool looking horse.

This thread is everything that is wrong with the world, actually.

If JFK was still alive today, would he say," Ask not what your game can do for you, Ask what YOU can do for your game."


Been playing since April 07, won't be stopping anytime soon.

I say this as a Lifetime subscriber, I HAVE RECEIVED MY MONEYS WORTH.

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I must say that I agree. To get to be a lifetimer is really something we should all be grateful for.

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Originally Posted by Menathradon

This thread makes me /sadface.

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Oh don't let it get to you. All game forums are like this. You won't find a more wretched place of slime and villainy.


Edit: I bought TP also to buy a cool looking horse.

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Originally Posted by imptown

Zarador--

you're basing "cashing out" on months subscribed (tho you're wrong about my actual lifetime date)--but based on the blatent dishonesty and lies that were made regarding F2P, when i contacted Turbine, i asked them to cash me out based on actual time played.

i initially signed on thinking i was getting a bargain (based on what i was told after asking about F2P), knowing that for a period of time i wouldn't be able to play the game.

i even talked others in my same situation into signing on, knowing that we would have to leave for a period and come back.

and, when we did get back, we came back to a deceitful little game.

we made an investment based on the information given by Turbine.

if Turbine had said "we don't know if we are going F2P," even that would have been understandable.

but that quote in my sig is no joke--Massively and others were specifically lied to when they inquired about LotRO going F2P.

more importantly, players were lied to on this very board regarding F2P (well, an early version of this board).

yes, i understand that it's Turbine's game and they can do with it as they will.

but don't lie to my face to get my money.

it's the mendacity that rankles me most.

and, though the market itself bothers me, the real problem is what is being sold there.

my opinion--you should not be able to purchase anything other than cosmetics.

anything other than that makes the game dishonest, the thought being "why go out and grind for something when you can just buy it?"

some of us never intended to support such a dishonest game model.

we were tricked into doing so.

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You don't get to cash out on time played, you signed up for a continuous plan even if you did not choose to log in during that time period. There are times I don't get to play for weeks on end and I don't get, nor do I expect a refund for time not played.

You also signed up for a game that, like all games are subject to change. Choosing a long term plan (lifetime) was your choice since others (self included) made a choice for a reoccuring subscription.

You were tricked? I seriously doubt that any of the major games out there had any F2P plans in mind back when this game was released. Once again, games do change over time, not everyone likes all the changes, but you locked into a lifetime deal.

Deceitful? Well, many companies keep major changes under wraps until an official announcement. Did you think that a community manager was going to spill out the details?

What was being sold to you was a game run by a gaming company that stated that their game is subject to change at any givin time based on their decesions.

You get 500 points a month. If you don't care for what the store offers, then don't buy it. You can always use the points to pay for expansions and never be bothered by the store. Micro-transactions are pretty much here to stay and the wave of gaming now. Even some of the original die hard games that are still around after 10+ years are going in this direction. Turbine is just being singled out because they were inovative enough to come up with a hybrid model early on.

You did not purchase a subscription to a game frozen in time that would always remain the same. Personally, I welcome the changes as it brought in a good amount of players to the game that make the game more enjoyable.

Zarador--

"You don't get to cash out on time played, you signed up for a continuous plan even if you did not choose to log in during that time period. There are times I don't get to play for weeks on end and I don't get, nor do I expect a refund for time not played."

I'm a casual gamer, one who plays less than you I'd bet, so this is my approach to all the online games that I play. I have no problem with that--normally.

I wanted money back from Turbine only because of the blatant lies they told to get people to subscribe to lifetime accounts.


"You also signed up for a game that, like all games are subject to change. Choosing a long term plan (lifetime) was your choice since others (self included) made a choice for a reoccuring subscription...What was being sold to you was a game run by a gaming company that stated that their game is subject to change at any givin time based on their decesions."

As I stated previously, I understand that.

What I don't understand...well, expect, is for the company to outright lie when players' money is at stake.


"You were tricked? I seriously doubt that any of the major games out there had any F2P plans in mind back when this game was released. Once again, games do change over time, not everyone likes all the changes, but you locked into a lifetime deal.

Deceitful? Well, many companies keep major changes under wraps until an official announcement. Did you think that a community manager was going to spill out the details?"

If players knew enough to ask about F2P or an RMT back then, I'm not going to believe what you say about a company not being aware of it.

And what I expect from a community manager is not to lie. That's the kind of world I try to live in. You don't lie. You might not say anything, but I don't expect you to lie, to your customers or Massively, especially if people are basing their gaming purchases on your responses.

You seem to accept a company lying to its customers to "keep major changes under wraps until an official announcement" as no big deal. It's unethical--not a concern for you? Where would you draw the line at what lies you find acceptable? Or would you ever draw a line--just so that you could keep playing a video game you enjoy?


"You get 500 points a month. If you don't care for what the store offers, then don't buy it. You can always use the points to pay for expansions and never be bothered by the store. Micro-transactions are pretty much here to stay and the wave of gaming now. Even some of the original die hard games that are still around after 10+ years are going in this direction. Turbine is just being singled out because they were inovative enough to come up with a hybrid model early on."

No, Turbine is being singled out because they lied.

Hopefully those 10+ year games you mention will go F2P with a little more integrity than Turbine did and resist the urge to put noncosmetic items in their markets.

As I said, I don't "play" the game anymore. I log in on occasion to make sure what is supposed to be deposited into my account is. Maybe I'll figure out something to do with the account in the future. If I could trust Turbine to deposit same, I wouldn't log in at all--but since I already know they lie...well, I have to check up on them.


"You did not purchase a subscription to a game frozen in time that would always remain the same. Personally, I welcome the changes as it brought in a good amount of players to the game that make the game more enjoyable."

Yes, I'm sure most of the player base enjoys the game as is. As I said, it's a lot easier to play a game where you can buy things that you would normally have to put some effort in to get. It's easysauce--just bring your wallet.

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Originally Posted by imptown

No, Turbine is being singled out because they lied.

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Whatever. ArenaNet said they were going to release Guild Wars 2 a couple of years ago. And as of today, still no GW2 released to the public.
- ArenaNet has hardly released any content for Guild Wars 1 in 4 years!

So, in 4 years almost no new content from ArenaNet while Turbine has done as promised, continued to add content to LOTRO.

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Originally Posted by imptown

Hopefully those 10+ year games you mention will go F2P with a little more integrity than Turbine did and resist the urge to put noncosmetic items in their markets.

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Guild Wars has a version of F2P and ArenaNet offers noncosmetic items in their store.

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Originally Posted by Zarador

You were tricked? I seriously doubt that any of the major games out there had any F2P plans in mind back when this game was released. Once again, games do change over time, not everyone likes all the changes, but you locked into a lifetime deal.

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There ya go, right here. Business have to adapt or they die. End of story. I cannot honestly believe that the suits in Turbine were at a table and said, "HEY! Let's lie to the players, go for a year without content(and still pay the devs), and surprise everyone with F2P! Woot!!!!! YAY!!!!!"

And @Imptown, you are an adult and you knew that $200 was a risky proposition. You can't call foul and call people liars because the economic situation made Turbine perform a drastic move.

They had to put off content for an entire year to develop F2P and didn't have any content for a year after that. I cannot believe they put that much money on the line just to lie to it's customers. It doesn't make any economic sense.

They didn't lie dude. Of course they had to keep things under wraps. Has Turbine made boneheaded moves? Of course they did. Changing the forum design when it worked and not responding to complaints any more is the most boneheaded thing I've seen in a while. But that's a case of idiocy, not deceit.

You make it out to seem like Turbine is some evil cigarette company. And it's not. It's a company struggling to survive in a changing economic environment.

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Originally Posted by imptown

Turbine continued to lie to everyone, even after Massively caught them trying to hire an RMT manager.

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Let's see,

1. Turbine advertises for a RMT manager in Jan, 2009 for a yet unannounced project
2. Turbine announces that DDO is going F2P in the summer of 2009
3. Over a year after that LOTRO goes F2P and imptown thinks that a job posting from Jan, 2009 is relevant to LOTRO

Talk about tunnel vision, try looking at a bigger picture - not everything Turbine, is about LOTRO, they have other games too.

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Originally Posted by Unique

1. Turbine advertises for a RMT manager in Jan, 2009 for a yet unannounced project
2. Turbine announces that DDO is going F2P in the summer of 2009
3. Over a year after that LOTRO goes F2P and imptown thinks that a job posting from Jan, 2009 is relevant to LOTRO

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How about:
1. Rumors pop up that Lotro is being migrated to F2P.
2. Patience says "it's not happening".
3. A few months later, F2P goes into beta.

I don't know of any company that can take a major software update from the what-if phase all the way to a functional beta test in only a few months, yet that's what Turbine wants us to believe that they did.

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Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

How about:

2. Patience says "it's not happening".
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Uh no. That is not a differing opinion, that is a misleading title. This is what she said in regards to that statement she said. "Of course I said that. If I hadn't lost my crystal ball somewhere, I wouldn't have been so decisive. :) At the time I said that, that's what I believed."

And that is included in that link that you posted. She admitted that she was wrong.

That link is a prime example of why blue names don't talk to us anymore. Every little word by them is dissected. She made a statement, admitted that she was wrong and you bring up a quote from mid-2009.

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Originally Posted by Nymphonic

And @Imptown, you are an adult and you knew that $200 was a risky proposition. You can't call foul and call people liars because the economic situation made Turbine perform a drastic move.

They had to put off content for an entire year to develop F2P and didn't have any content for a year after that. I cannot believe they put that much money on the line just to lie to it's customers. It doesn't make any economic sense.

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I will have to point out that it wasn't an economic problem for Turbine to change to FTP. They outright said they wanted to change because they saw they could make more money, not because they were struggling.

So either they made a completely underhanded tactic of selling LTA accounts just before announcing FTP just to make more money or they've lied to us about saying that the game wasn't struggling before FTP. Whatever's the case, it was the beginning of Turbine's underhanded tactics, something pretty much every European was dreading before migration.

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Originally Posted by Nymphonic

Uh no. That is not a differing opinion, that is a misleading title. This is what she said in regards to that statement she said. "Of course I said that. If I hadn't lost my crystal ball somewhere, I wouldn't have been so decisive. :) At the time I said that, that's what I believed."

And that is included in that link that you posted. She admitted that she was wrong.

That link is a prime example of why blue names don't talk to us anymore. Every little word by them is dissected. She made a statement, admitted that she was wrong and you bring up a quote from mid-2009.

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This is the link that contains the copy that I posted (read some of the comments from other disappointed players also):

http://massively.joystiq.com/2009/01...current-games/


As far as I know, that is the original. Those comments that you attribute to Patience are not there.

So they are not "included in that link that you (I) posted."

I realize this is only the internet--but please don't try and make it seem that I am a liar (even by omission) when I am not. Thanks.

I never saw those comments from Patience--do you have a link you can supply?

Please note--I am not calling you a liar; I'm just curious as to where and when this was posted.

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Originally Posted by Unique

Let's see,

1. Turbine advertises for a RMT manager in Jan, 2009 for a yet unannounced project
2. Turbine announces that DDO is going F2P in the summer of 2009
3. Over a year after that LOTRO goes F2P and imptown thinks that a job posting from Jan, 2009 is relevant to LOTRO

Talk about tunnel vision, try looking at a bigger picture - not everything Turbine, is about LOTRO, they have other games too.

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Please read the post from Nymphonic two posts below your original post above.

If Nymphonic's post is true (and I have no reason to believe that it is not), what exactly is Patience apologizing for?

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Originally Posted by Nymphonic

And that is included in that link that you posted. She admitted that she was wrong.

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More importantly, she admitted that it was said. Whenever someone brings up that quote without the proof of it being said, certain people will always claim that the quote never happened. My link was an attempt to quell any claims that I'm just making up quotes.

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That link is a prime example of why blue names don't talk to us anymore. Every little word by them is dissected.

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Dissected how? Patience said that the game was not going F2P. A few months later, it did. This isn't 'you used a comma where you should have used a period so that means the next class will be a shapshifting eagle/wizard/aircraft-carrier/cow' level dissection, this is simply taking a statement at face value.

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She made a statement, admitted that she was wrong and you bring up a quote from mid-2009.

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She made the claim, then F2P went into beta a few months later. There's only three possibilities for this. One, she knew that the game was going F2P, and she deliberately lied to us. Two, (most likely IMO), those in charge were deliberately keeping their F2P plans a secret for as long as they possibly could, even to the point of lying to their own employees. Or three, there were no plans at the time of that quote, but the devs were able to put everything else on the back burner and push out an operational beta test in only a few months.

Regardless of the truth behind that quote, there's almost no possible explanation that doesn't lead to someone within Turbine deceiving others.

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Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

How about:
1. Rumors pop up that Lotro is being migrated to F2P.
2. Patience says "it's not happening".
3. A few months later, F2P goes into beta.

I don't know of any company that can take a major software update from the what-if phase all the way to a functional beta test in only a few months, yet that's what Turbine wants us to believe that they did.

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Originally Posted by imptown

This is the link that contains the copy that I posted (read some of the comments from other disappointed players also):

http://massively.joystiq.com/2009/01...current-games/


As far as I know, that is the original. Those comments that you attribute to Patience are not there.

So they are not "included in that link that you (I) posted."

I realize this is only the internet--but please don't try and make it seem that I am a liar (even by omission) when I am not. Thanks.

I never saw those comments from Patience--do you have a link you can supply?

Please note--I am not calling you a liar; I'm just curious as to where and when this was posted.

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I think we had a miscommunication. I was quoting the "it's not happening" link above. In it Patience admitted that she was wrong when saying F2P was not going to happen.

If I gave the wrong message or impression it was not intended. My apologies for any confusion. We may not agree but it's not my intention to insult anyone.

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Originally Posted by Dorothir

Whatever's the case, it was the beginning of Turbine's underhanded tactics, something pretty much every European was dreading before migration.

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I don't agree with you on Turbine lying about F2P waaaaay back in the day, but I kinda have to agree with this. Turbine's attitude AFTER F2P came has changed. I wish I could remember when WB took over, my memory is going blank on that, I can't remember if it was before or after F2P.

But after F2P, my opinion of Turbine has lessened. Anyone that follows my posts know my feelings of Turbine's stance on the new forums and how they have turned a blind eye on all the complaints. That is under handed. And the debacle with the forums being down for 3 days and not saying anything to anyone was inexcusable. If it wasn't underhanded it was at the very best incompetent. Turbine, I'm talking to you. The way the actual forum(I'm not talking about moderating) page is handled is just sad.

But one thing that is not underhanded is selling LT accounts just before F2P. All those folks that have LT are ViPs for as long as the game is alive with 500 TP a month to boot. The F2P folks don't have anything compared to that.

One thing I want to stress though is that my ire is not directed toward the devs. I honestly feel they want to make a good product and they care about what they do. It's the marketing people and the upper echelon I'm not happy with.

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Originally Posted by Nymphonic

But one thing that is not underhanded is selling LT accounts just before F2P. .

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I am in agreement with most of what you say but this I feel needs clarifying. I bought a LT around the time of F2P. I even used this fact to help reassure my kin that F2P was a good thing and I did so based on what Turbine were telling us F2P would be.

I don't think the Lifetime package was deceptive at all, however I do think Turbine decieved its playerbase in regards to what they intended F2P to be. I would imagine they did this to try and keep stability within the playerbase and in the hope that players would adjust as smaller changes were made rather than announcing up front their intention to go 'all the way' to an MT model with the original launch of F2P.

Of course the classic example of this is the infamous 'convenience, not advantage' line we were given, yet even in Beta there was already 'advantage' in the store in the form of the stat tomes and pots and they have followed through with this approach step by step. Odds are it was always their intention but what would have happened if they originally announced they were going full MT model up front and that the store would have advantage and premium loot in it? I am convinced their concern (and a valid one) was that they would have a huge player uproar and a whole load of cancelled accounts... not only would that not have looked good, but it would have happened before the new F2P players walked through the door and they would have taken a knock to what they said (in an interview I think) is the 'safety net' of subscription based players.

So no I don't think Turbine decieved those buying the LT package (especially since it was only a codies offer I think) but I do think they intentionally deceived the playerbase itself over what F2P would be in order to lessen the 'shock' factor and increase the chances more players will stay and steadily adapt to the new model over time.

I do not hold the devs responsible for any direction in the game (except the ideas for the good stuff!). It is the management and marketing that I have found to be either lazy, incompetent and lacking in quality or else deliberately using shady marketing tactics. Whichever it is, it isn't acceptable and needs to change.

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Originally Posted by Nymphonic

If it wasn't underhanded it was at the very best incompetent.

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There's a famous quote which says "Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence". For the most part, no one sets out to deliberately screw anyone over...it just kind of turns out that way due to a lack of effort/ability.

UnlikelyBeing made a comment about cancelled accounts. The thing that worries me is that the player base may indeed be shrinking. As you'll see from my sig I provide a deed tracker spreadsheet. The Moria version of the spreadsheet was downloaded about 168 times according to Rapidshare. I've had some troubles with the new ROI version, meaning it has already seen about four "beta" versions, but is now pretty much finished. Each version has only been downloaded 16 times.

I know there are other deed-tracking services out there now, when in Moria there was pretty much only me and Burgzerg (btw, Burgzerg, please update your site!), so I really hope there's other reasons behind this fall off, and that the player base hasn't really shrunk by 90%.

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Originally Posted by GreyArea1966

UnlikelyBeing made a comment about cancelled accounts. The thing that worries me is that the player base may indeed be shrinking.

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I do think the player base is shrinking and for several reasons. There are of course other highly competitive game titles being released - I noticed a big drop on my server in number of players online in my kin, other kins as well as my friends list and didn't even know why until someone filled me in on Skyrim and SWTOR beta so clearly these have had some impact. The real question is how long their impact will last.

Lotro has always been a strong title in the past and I have seen of many players going off to other games only to return. The question is why do they return? I think the answer is one or more of the following;

- they have friends in lotro
- they have invested a lot of time into their characters and don't want to abandon them
- there is new content out which appeals to them
- they never intended to leave, just have a break from lotro and play a different game for a change of scenery

I am sure there are plenty of other reasons as well. The problem is that Turbine seem to have been alienating different sections of its playerbase. While reading the threads about the Instance Finder I found it interesting to see some posts indicating that clearly the IF is a tool aimed at end-game players who raid and take things more seriously and that it isn't useful for soloers or those who prefer small groups. I also read some posts indicating that the IF is aimed at casual players who struggle to find groups or don't join kins. The posts that I am referring to were written by those who felt the IF was not aimed at them.

Turbine's marketing has been deceptive. Whether that is intentional or not is moot to a point because it is how the marketing is received by the players that really matters. The latest example of this is their push for selling ROI at half price with pictures and comments referencing cloaks as being part of the product players are buying when it isn't actually included. There are many other examples of this kind of marketing - particularly since the announcement of ROI. People do not like to be given the wrong impression about a product they are buying and when they make a point about this they are met with silence and Turbine digging their heels in. I think some players are feeling alienated partly because they feel Turbine is not playing fair.

Then there is the question of new content. ROI end-game is old content with new loot - that isn't exciting, it isn't challenging and it isn't all that much fun. I usually refuse to 'grind' but I am doing the skirmish raid 'grind' because there isn't much else to do and it offers an opportunity for me to spend some time with in game friends and have a laugh. It's wearing thin to say the least. I should be able to enjoy the 'game' itself with friends, not just go through the motions of playing the game with them.

My concern is that those who are leaving to play Skyrim, SWTOR and other titles being released will be far less likely to return than they have in the past because there just isn't enough reason to. This isn't really about the new games, its about the direction lotro is going in. Perhaps that is partly the thinking behind introducing the IF - a tool to help support lotro when player numbers drop... it may also be that the introduction of the IF is unintentionally emphasing the lack of new content.

The instance cluster from ROI is being shipped 'with' Update 5. What does Update 5 contain?

- some Epic
- Instance Finder

Doesn't look much like much of a content update by itself does it?