The key line here is "More than lotro has players left." That is the only part of his statement I disagree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joedangod
Also, Helms Deep was released in 2013. They didn't start server merges until the end of 2015.
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The key line here is "More than lotro has players left." That is the only part of his statement I disagree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joedangod
Also, Helms Deep was released in 2013. They didn't start server merges until the end of 2015.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joedangod
Besides real life problems I think players leave when they are bored and/or their favorite game play has been taken out. And HD most certainly did that for some with the removal of classic instances and besides BBs there was nothing. BBs are either loved or hated. That doesn't even depend on the solo or group preferences. That's why it is so important to have end game and progression for solo and for group players. HD really catered to none. They tried a new system to appeal to both groups and imo failed. The same with MC. For me both are overcomplicated.
As for the hunter changes some will leave over the them, others will adapt, and the rest will change spec or even class. I hope they take a second look and make blue line at least fluid again. Right now with different cds on Blood Arrow/Exsanguinate and Barrage besides the focus generation it is just clunky.
Server consolidation took place more than 2 years after helms deep. While I agree that there was a mass exodus over trait trees (I remember it), you're trying to compare oranges with apples here. Going on your argument, changes today, would need to show their affect 2.4 years from now, and then you "may" have something. However, you have no idea how many players will leave over this, nor do I, or the devs, that's a waiting game, and 2.4 years from now, we could very well be facing another world consolidation over it, or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joedangod
Everyone who used GLFF at time remembers back in RoR that had huge drop off on players there were good 200-300 (several hundreds anyway regardless the server) on the channel on active servers. On U14 I remember GLFF had just 70-150 players on daily basis. That is quite telling. It was really apparent back on U14 servers were totally empty. How many smaller dead servers remember last year or so of PvP before closing down? 6v6 fights, meanwhile during 85 level they used to have several raids fighting on ettenmoors and this was time when they started design to mostly to soloers so many groupers were already pissed off and left the game. Game saw huge drop off after release of RoR cluster and was downwards spiral after that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfoot
I have seen it and every time game lacks end game instances people quit the game on masses. This happened during SoM. This happened during 85 level. This happened during 95,100 levels and so on. Now logins are really low because no group content for past 6 months and ones they have are locked arbitrarily at the moment for some novelty reason.
Without those design decisions game would probably still have 30-40% bigger player base. People don't quit game because it's old, they quit because it's ####.
I asked you which classes/specs, because you said that some specs don't even work until end game. I'm telling you that there are many one or two such specs, but that every single spec has a place in the end game content. The vast majority of specs in WoW are fully functional and playable while leveling, but also competitive in raids.Quote:
Originally Posted by wispsong
So I ask again, which specs?
I'm not arguing against group content. Personally, I think this game should be kicking out at least one new raid and at least 1 new 6-man dungeon every quarter. Key word here is should. But it can't and it never will.Quote:
Originally Posted by siipperi
Imho this game will be dead in 4 years if nothing changes. The only way I see it will be still alive if they cooperate with Amazon(they will need to support their lotr 5 season show) and numbers of people will arrive here, but i doubt Amazon will cooperate, it seams to me they rather will make a new game instead of dealing with outdated one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnenna
I think the upcoming LotR show on Amazon is completely irrelevant to this game (and vice versa). The marketing for this game has been abysmal for years and continues to be. Even when the game was under WB, the sheer lack of cross promotion--or promotion of any kind--during the Hobbit movies release window was mind boggling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osweld
This just makes me laugh. You know the big #1 MMO that makes at least 20 Million a month (probably 2-5 times more) and only has 3 raids in 2 years. Compared to them Lotro puts out a lot of content with probably less then 3% of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfoot
I would think a good raid a year and 3-instance cluster every 6 months would already be a lot. I personally prefer solo end game like DA or even Mordor with every daily being available to be done. And new zones with lots of questing are even better.
Unfortunately, freezing at trivial doesn't make the game any less trivial. Just look at my level 8 hunter easily killing red level 14-15 bears.Quote:
Originally Posted by wispsong
It was not a valid option for me or my partner. There is no level we could freeze at that could give any challenge - and certain none equal to the challenge and fun we could have had in SoA or MoM.
Duoing we did all quests we could when red-orange-yellow. Still too easy.
The closest I've come to SoA like feel was my auto attacking champ. Even that was easier most of the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wispsong
I think you should check your facts. I assume you are referring to WoW. Although I don't play it anymore, I think you are way off (interestingly enough, you didn't mention the number of dungeons it releases).
Let's use another game as an example. FFXIV released their Stormblood expansion in June of last year. Ignoring the huge amount of content that was released with the expansion itself...in the past year alone they have kicked out 4 new dungeons (4-man), 8 new raids (8-man), 2 new alliance raids (24-man), and 2 new primal fights (8-man). That is not even counting the savage versions of the raids--which sometimes are completely different fights than the originals.
All of that, without comprising any solo-only content...advancing the Main Scenario quests, crafting, Beast Tribe quests, etc. with every patch.
But I'm glad my conservative suggestion in regards to LotRO gave you a giggle.
I think there is a lot of similarity between U19 and 22.2 changes, even though they had the opposite effect on blue line hunter in particular. With U19, the concept of buffing hunter by massively increasing focus damage was already set with build 1 and never changed. When it was argued that the first buff still wasn't enough for hunters to compete with fire RKs there was a large increase, but still skewed towards massive focus damage increases. With 22.2 the concept of nerfing blue line with the barrage cooldown was already there in build 1 and never changed. It was reduced from 20 sec to 15 sec, which makes little difference given how it killed barrage anyway. Subsequently focus gathering was nerfed, making the situation even worse. In both cases, massive focus increase / barrage cooldown respectively, the concept was entrenched prior to build 1 and no feedback changed the fundamental direction. So from my perspective you have one bad decision, 22.2, compounded on top of another bad decision, U19. If an error was made in U19, common sense would dictate that you start by correcting the error (in this case restore the balance between focus and induction by reducing focus damage and buffing induction damage). However, the initial error was compounded rather than corrected. So instead of adjusting the damage balance we got barrage cooldown and focus gen nerf. Just terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatharil
Well, if you're referring to Helm's Deep, that was the combination of (supposedly) moving away from raids to epic battles instead and trait trees. The problem is, those players left, many permanently. The players that stayed, and those that joined subsequently, presumably signed up for how things were afterwards. It doesn't make much sense to make one radical move and alienate half your player base who quit, and then make another radical move and alienate the other half. Do you really believe that a significant portion of those who left will come back because blue hunter got nerfed (and not just nerfed but gratuitously mutilated on top of it)? Turbine / SSG may have spent a number of years catering to solo / casual players, however, having done so now po'ing them doesn't make much sense either. So once the hardcore successfully drags the game "back to the future", will it even be viable anymore?Quote:
Originally Posted by siipperi
False. WoW released a total of five raids over the course of Legion (which has been out for less than two years):Quote:
Originally Posted by wispsong
1) Emerald Nightmare
2) Nighthold
3) Trial of Valour
4) Tomb of Sargeras
5) Antorus, the Burning Throne
On top of that, WoW released twelve dungeons over the course of Legion (seven of which on launch, two of which time gated, but also released on launch, bringing the total to nine on launch), with a major content patch roughly every 77 days. This includes new world content, new dungeons and new raids.
Compared to them, LotRO puts out a lot of content? Please. Don't make a fool out of yourself.
FFXIV also has a higher monthly income then Lotro. But what does that tell you about the #1 MMO? I'm still reading their forums and have come to the conclusion that I won't return there. I didn't mention dungeons because I do not know how many they have. I'm interested in solo play. I know though that they have 15+ lvls of difficulty on each one. I think for Lotro though 1 raid a year with at least 8 bosses would be great. Then maybe a one boss raid in between and 3-instance cluster every 6 month. It would be more then now. My main interest though is landscape content and solo end game which besides the depressing landscape in Mordor had a great variety in choices and difficulty. But if they have to make choices I rather have more landscape questing. Others of cause will prefer the instances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfoot
I realize that the dev team is between a hard place and a rock with all the different interests of their player base. They please some and disappoint others. Any changes to classes and landscape difficulty need to be made very careful and the hunter change went beyond a simple balance to a revamp of the blue spec. I don't even want them to look at red mini, blue LM, red RK at all. Sure there are some things they could improve there but I'm afraid they just mess it up.
Lotro puts out a lot of content I like. Plus the classes are way more interesting to play and so is the story. And the characters look way better. For somebody who normally doesn't play instances the push into such in other games can be disheartening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giliodor
Like I said, I get my info from their forum. And when I played it was 3 raids in 2 years. Still way more group when solo content.
Also for 20+ mil a month that seems small change.
If I were somebody who wants more instances I'ld play an instance focused game for these and Lotro for the story.
A raid with 8 bosses just sounds tedious and boring. You want a challenge and diversity of mechanics, but 8 bosses?? 4 at least, 5 max.Quote:
Originally Posted by wispsong
My point is, you shouldn't have to sacrifice one type of content for the other. There should be a balance. This team--whether you call them SSG or Turbine--has never been good at balance. Because of this, it ends up putting one group of players at odds with the other. A casual player will take a defensive posture on the forums simply because a more group oriented player is asking for more raids or dungeons...because the casual player feels their type of content is at risk. It shouldn't be that way. Truth be told, SSG/Turbine is partly to blame for some of the animosity that exists on this forum.
1. But that's not the point. You brought WoW into this discussion to (somehow) defend the amount of group content in LotRO.Quote:
Originally Posted by wispsong
2. Please post a link that validates the claim that WoW makes over £20 mil a month in profit...
I'm not a raider but if you think 4-5 is fine, nothing against that. And I agree with you. There should be content for different play styles. The problem for me is not them asking, the problem for me is some of them assuming that every player grinds for all the better gear and all the ILI enhancement items and traits and virtues having the same skill as them asking for harder landscape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfoot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfoot
$. Just assuming they have over 1 million players paying $15 a month already outs them at 15 million. They probably have more players then that and have micro transactions.
Yes, and supposedly LOTRO is forced to manage on a much more limited income, with many fewer resources. So that makes it all the more perplexing that they would start off a major effort like the class revamp with changes that upset so many players. I understand that there is a certain group who like the direction taken, and are defending the changes to the hilt. However, it is ultimately futile trying to bully people into accepting they are wrong if they don't like it. For hunters the stated objective was to keep blue about the same dps and buff red to be about 10%-20% higher. So why not just leave blue as it was and buff red to be higher? I doubt there would be many players complaining about red being buffed and blue remaining the same. The raiders demanding it could have had their higher dps in red, with their more "interesting" rotation. There was no need to wreck blue as part of this effort. In fact, blue damage could have been slightly nerfed, while otherwise leaving it essentially intact, and I doubt there would have been many complaints. People who simply only consider dps persist in repeating over and over that blue line dps is adequate, even excessive, for landscape and players should be happy with that. Again, that's just telling people what they "should" like. It's not just about dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by wispsong
The topic of this thread sounds a bit sarcastic ;)
That doesn't change that your facts are wrong. It's objectively true that WoW releases more content on a more regular basis. Whether you enjoy the content or not is irrelevant to that. Your information about the frequency of raid releases is also just objectively wrong. That is, unless we include the several months of content draught at the end of the previous expansion, for which WoD is well known. That would be rather unfair, wouldn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by wispsong
To you. I wrote the title and I meant it with the utmost sincerity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osweld
My guess is this:Quote:
Originally Posted by DKenny
1.) They are hoping to gain new players because of the Lord of the Rings TV series. I haven't been paying attention, but I assume it is coming out sometime soon. In which case, I think they are taking a gamble, but it's a relatively reasonable gamble to take.
2.) They are competing with MUCH better games. There are games out there who have it all. They have great PvP, they have great raids, they have pretty comparable lore (personal preference may vary), they have good solo content, etc. I have played and watched this game for a very long time. I've seen them change release dates to be closer to that of other games (all speculation, though). And I do think they are trying to keep up with other games (which is mostly a GOOD thing). They are having more "episodic content". They are adding other aspects to the festivals (although the constant festivals and encores really do scream "This game is dying and we need to fly all our flags to get people to log in!"). They are trying to balance classes better (for end game and PvP purposes, let's not keep pretending that's not the reason).
Those are my ideas. I'm not them so I can't know for sure, but if I had to guess, I would say I'm not too off the mark in some way, at least.
I don't know if it will work. Maybe it will attract more players, but among gaming circles this game seems to have a pretty bad rap as just being an old, crusty game that isn't worth playing anymore. Still, they are trying, which is more than I can say they were doing for many years there.