Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Well, back to the main points of this thread, filling-in-the-gaps: I'm glad they are.
Maybe you have a character who doesn't want to go to Ered Mithrin or Gundabad for "Dwarves, Dwarves, Dwarves." Would like an alternative for that also. It's good to fill-out the map and have different things to do, different paths on the journey.

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Definitely, I'm glad too! And that's never been questioned, hope you haven't received it that way. Given sensible possibilities, I also wouldn't mind 'alternative' questing zones.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

I'd be a fan of "simultaneous storytelling" that, instead of having absolutely everything happen in sequential order, things could happen at the same time as optional paths to follow. It would make more sense for Legacy of Durin, for example, to happen at the same time as the Minas Morgul stuff rather than - after - it; it would've made more sense for the Minas Morgul stuff to happen - immediately after - Agarnaith; the business with the fall of Dol Guldor honestly should've been an alternative to venturing into Gorgoroth. Otherwise, the timeline is a mess.

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There is of course swift travel and some time compression involved (in a way) but not really a mess if we take into account Gondorians and Rangers were busy fighting the rest of their way through Gorgoroth (taking over fortresses presumably) when we were elsewhere, before Gondor turned its gaze towards closed-off Morgul Vale (and Lhaereth/Ugrukhor did the same thing, fearing rumors of Gothmog's 'weapon,' something for which they needed a bit of time to gather their armies so can't really happen immediately after the meeting of the Masters and Lhaereth's escape from her fortress during the instance which implies she needed a moment to lick her wounds and come back later once Rangers were gone). In that time, when we were elsewhere, Gandalf had the time he needed to study the Bugdatish matter and then the Black Book while simultaneously Gundabad was being set up for the future expansion along with all the characters of that content. So... no, the timeline isn't a mess (with the usual pause/compression rule in action of course), except a bit during Gundabad reclamation campaign which as I said feels like it's waaay too soon and completely off considered that it's still War of the Ring period and can hardly be legit described as part of it + it does outshine some of the War of the Ring events.

It could have been done differently of course if designed differently and told differently, true, but the question lingers how well would it be told then? Who knows, just pointing it out since it's all interconnected as it stands rn and the storytelling works pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

That's what I want to see: choices. Not, "My character must return to Eriador because the game says so." Frankly, most of my characters would have far more narrative reasons to chase down Karazgar than follow Frodo back to the Shire. That should be a choice, not a forced move, as far as I'm concerned. Players who want to "go home to Eriador" absolutely should; players who want to venture elsewhere should do that. Players who want "the Stretch" and do both should as their choice.

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'Choices' are usually one of the most desired features of any rpg adventure game but guess what, they're never delivered even if promised or - pretty much - faked. In terms of questing/branching off it takes too much resources/thought to do it properly so the inclusion of such choice might even cheapen the story and doesn't even feel like it matters in the end (the fakeness usually has to do with the end result being the same, only different way of saying things or completing an objective). Not even something like Assassin's Creed which was cheapened years ago and reduced to a simple shallow 'historical simulator' product to be milked again and again - that recently was boasting about how they'll be able to generate even bigger worlds in the future - bothered with actual choices and alternative paths though that would have been perfect, considering the current nature of those games, if we could travel through the historical landscape wherever we want with things to do almost everywhere. But nope, it's all the usual... lvl progression from zone to zone in sequential order following the main story chapters.

Now, all what you propose here is perfectly feasible in theory, but is it in practice, if the whole game was done like this? I raised some of these issues and confusing things and even sources of *enormous stress* for players that could have appeared, when we talked about it and in my conversation with seekingerin above. I noticed you always say how cool that would be with these alternative paths, including how perfectly natural it would feel if we levelled and progressed though the game according to geography, so between adjacent zones mostly, but... never propose how :P in a feasible way without dire consequences for those who haven't yet played through the game :P and the desire to enrich the game/immersion (which I get, I really do) purely through the lenses of 'game design for roleplaying' (so usually on alts) misses the point of the game in the first place, kind of.

Anyway, I get the sentiment, I really do, I wish something like that was possible somehow in a way that's reasonable but no ideas really. Maybe can be done in some way, in some capacity, somewhere. As I said before, I wouldn't mind if they experimented with something like the old Eriador quest design somewhere where it's feasible, so lots of travel between many interconnected zones, where it's kind of possible to choose order of some zones while questing. But gotta be feasible from story standpoint too, and mostly - if not entirely - self-contained. So that also means not possible to benefit from known characters or unresolved loose ends.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

My favorite time in LOTRO was level 1 - 15. Why? Because the Prologue quests felt more unique for my characters. My Dwarves - belonged - questing in the Vale of Thrain; my Elves - belonged - in Falathlorn. My Hobbits - belonged - in the Shire. When my Elf had to enter the Prancing Pony, because the Epic said so, it felt off; it made no sense. Elves are these mythical beings that Frodo properly found in the wilderness, not drinking at the Golden Perch in Stock. As an avid roleplayer, I care about that stuff.

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So yes, the lenses of pure roleplaying :) On an alt, as a veteran of the game :) Now, the Eriador prologue isn't that bad and remains quite charming, mainly because it's the beginning of the journey, gotta take things slow, surely things will become crystal clear over time and in the meanwhile all that delivering of mail or beating up angry brigands remains pretty self-evident/simple.

But let me tell you a story...

...when I played LOTRO for the first time I picked a human. The Amdir stuff was cool and I got to see how he was stabbed (there were Carguls too who I knew nothing about: what the heck was THAT supposed to be and why they're red? - until I seriously picked my brain about it and understood, since the game doesn't explain this stuff at all, but hey, I was aware they exist in lore, from the beginning, so it wasn't extra confusing later). But what I didn't know about was this: Dourhands. Ok, evil dwarves? In some encampment? What the heck? But no context really. I wasn't satisfied with the class I picked anyway so I switched and created another character, a dwarf. I was lucky to pick a dwarf and see the things unfold in the Skrogrim's Tomb, things I was completely in the dark about previously. However, at that time and basically all the way through to Gabilazan I was still mistaken about a pesky little detail: that it wasn't really Skorgrim that was revived. I know, may sound stupid, and even if it was said in one of the quests that it wasn't really him, I might have just missed it, I was just starting out, after all. I wasn't such an adept of the Tolkien-y game lore to immediately realize evil sorcerers usually bring these fell evil spirits out of the void and use them to do their bidding, but it's rare for actual individuals to be brought back and given some sort of autonomy. Besides, following the Ered Luin storyline and further: everyone treats him and talks about him like he is REALLY Skorgrim, so that's what I thought he was. Oh, there was also the matter of "what the heck is this and how does it work" when you encounter Ivar but at least you got an important glimpse of his characterization/power... which my human character was completely in the dark about too (but the later meeting with Ivar in Agamaur chapter is even MORE abrupt from what I remember, so it's like you are actually required to meet him in that tomb to get a better sense of him before you're thrown into Radagast vs Ivar showdown later on). Now, the other person who picked an elf and who lived with me... they understood this story about Dourhands, more or less, since Dwarf/Elf are part of the same story thread for the most part, besides they've seen me playing on my dwarf too - but in the end they were still a bit confused about Skorgrim/Dourhands/Ivar and I had to explain it to them. Because the dwarven character got a little bit more context, in the end. THEN, I also had to explain Amdir to them... and indeed, having played through Amdir chapter for the second time, this time on a dwarf, I did experience *the issue* myself: I've run across Breeland quest givers and all of a sudden there was 'this Amdir' they were talking about, as if my dwarf cared, and once I saw Amdir turn into Cargul... I hardly cared. Whereas on my human character, since I played through the entire context of that storyline including Archet prologue and indeed - THAT'S how it was TRULY intended and designed, to play through all this, to understand - the entire scene felt pretty sad and epic. So that's what I needed to explain to that other person playing as an elf - because they were pretty confused about that entire Amdir storyline they were thrown into, which felt off and disjointed, but ok, that was just the beginning of the game, so you know... no reason to panic or anything, next task picking up flowers or killing boars, everything alright with the world, besides from this point onward the mention of the fellowship appears and the game doesn't really offer storylines too poorly explained devoid of context as if you missed some content that you were supposed to play though...

Now... you express the wish for A LOT MORE of such main storyline design, including branching off of zones with simultaneous timelines/storylines preferably everywhere if the devs are willing. Just let it sink in... XD How would THAT work? And that's just about the *general* confusion, without getting into the whole 'preserving chronology' dilemma.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Compromises are always messy things; they are usually the most sensible, and consequently, they tend to get the most folks upset: it means no one gets everything they want, and everyone gets something that they want

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Only in this case it needs to be weighted against clear game design too, that's why most games shy away from this sort of thing. Although I would love to play though *some* of the content that's done in such a fashion, if it's well-thought-out and feasible. Then why not! In the end, the devs will do what they think is best, which I hope is directed by wisdom, for the most part. But I very much look forward to all of the new zones we might explore in the future as much as anyone else. If they are even considering The Forging and Eregion War retelling, as eventual part of this Southern expansion project, I wonder if it might bring some new Annatar artifact into the picture, ring or otherwise, that someone may want to put their hands on. Because that could become something of relevance, to keep this retelling story afloat for legit reasons other than just the Re-teller being nostalgic. So something like the Isildur shade but maybe more directly tied into the main story, business with Drugoth or Angmar or Gurzyul? Whereas Isildur was like this random discovery (even though surprising!) in the middle of the Blook Book study but this didn't really have any bearing either on the Book nor Bugdatish.

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

Nice try. Didn't work. :D

MoL

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I've wondered if the devs have been reading this thread, and if so, what they've thought of it, lol. I wonder if they love us, hate us, or are just laughing at us. :)

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Well, back to the main points of this thread, filling-in-the-gaps: I'm glad they are. I'm one of those players who doesn't feel compelled to follow Frodo everywhere. I've played the Epic and enjoyed it. But now, for as long as we have the game, I just want to see what's over that next horizon. I think it would be good to have alternative leveling paths throughout the game. Maybe you have a character who - doesn't - have a good story-reason to be at Pelennor Fields and would rather deal with a threat in Druwaith Iaur or something. That's ok and fine and well and good by me.

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I do think it's good to return to the point of the thread, as I kind of feel bad that my posts here have kind of made it drift away from that point, lol.

I'm glad that they're filling in the gaps, too, though for slightly different reasons. I think it's great to provide alternative levelling areas and options for people who want them. It's not something that's super relevant to my playstyle; I'm the kind of player who throws on a tortoise stone on my lower-level alts and tries to be a completionist, which probably explains why I only have two characters anywhere close to level cap, lol. So for me, rather than giving me an alternate levelling path, new lower-level areas just give me more to explore along the way.

What I like about seeing the gaps filled in is simply having a bigger, fuller, better-connected world. In his Bree-Lands video, Scenario mentioned the difference between exploration-focused players and story-focused players. I am an explorer. I like having quests and stories that give me a reason to go to locations off the beaten path, but the exploration is the point for me. Seeing the world as it grows and grows is the point for me.

For me, the value of adding locations like the Wildwood and the Angle is that they make the world I'm exploring larger and make my exploration more interesting. The value in these locations isn't just in the locations themselves; they also enrich the areas around them. When I'm in Bree, I like knowing that the Wildwood is there instead of there just being some empty, untouched void in the world. I like knowing that there's an interesting pocket of story in those hills. I love seeing Sutwarden loom over the fields northwest of Bree. I've crossed the Last Bridge a couple of times recently, and I love looking south along the river and seeing Eitheldir and knowing that the Angle, with all its interesting stories, is there. I started a new hobbit character a few days ago, and as I play through the Shire, I'm really enjoying knowing that there's this whole extra expanse of the Shire that I never knew about before. I'm going to love being able to run through the Yondershire to Ered Luin as I do my completionist thing instead of having to go through a teleport door. And I know that, when the Royal Road comes out, I'll love being able to look south from Bree and think about what's beyond the hills I, and I'll love having an alternative to the Lone Lands as I'm physically travelling through the world, and I'll love knowing that, if I wanted to, I could follow the North-South Road all the way from Minas Tirith to Fornost.

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

I like knowing that there's an interesting pocket of story in those hills.

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Wildwood was pretty generic for my taste though. And 'grindy.' Though it makes a good alternative questing hub. In terms of alternative questing paths on lower lvl, most of all, I would love LOTS and LOTS of landscape auto bestowed quests more than anything. It was kind of done with some of the Wildwood places but then again, this is part of what made it 'generic' so that's quite the dilemma. Makes me wonder whether they shouldn't just throw a bit of random landscape mob killer quests in places all across Eriador, for extra juice, in case someone plays a character as a sort of independent adventure, so tries not to do 'quest chains'

The Angle, however, was perfect. So in the end I think I do prefer these lower lvl areas story-driven. I would very much like to see Mount Gram one day and Angmar connected to the Lonelands through Agamaur - maybe with a story hook that dwarves from Gabilshatur try to carve a better path through the hostile Gram territory towards Rivendell/Misty Mountains pass. So then it doesn't look like theirs and ours choice of the route during Gundabad campaign (in missions) is The Long Way Round through North Downs and Breeland since that's odd and would effectively rule out Gabilshatur dwarves from the war effort as a strategic 'supply line'

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

if I wanted to, I could follow the North-South Road all the way from Minas Tirith to Fornost.

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Yes, that will be awesome...

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Wildwood was pretty generic for my taste though. And 'grindy.' Though it makes a good alternative questing hub. In terms of alternative questing paths on lower lvl, most of all, I would love LOTS and LOTS of landscape auto bestowed quests more than anything. It was kind of done with some of the Wildwood places but then again, this is part of what made it 'generic' so that's quite the dilemma. Makes me wonder whether they shouldn't just throw a bit of random landscape mob killer quests in places all across Eriador, for extra juice, in case someone plays a character as a sort of independent adventure, so tries not to do 'quest chains'

The Angle, however, was perfect. So in the end I think I do prefer these lower lvl areas story-driven. I would very much like to see Mount Gram one day and Angmar connected to the Lonelands through Agamaur - maybe with a story hook that dwarves from Gabilshatur try to carve a better path through the hostile Gram territory towards Rivendell/Misty Mountains pass. So then it doesn't look like theirs and ours choice of the route during Gundabad campaign (in missions) is The Long Way Round through North Downs and Breeland since that's odd and would effectively rule out Gabilshatur dwarves from the war effort as a strategic 'supply line'

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I agree about Wildwood feeling generic and grindy. I enjoy the fact that Wildwood exists more than I enjoyed playing through the area itself, if that makes sense. Playing through the actual quests felt a bit tedious. I hope they're able to come up with better stories for future fill-in areas and that they're better able to integrate them into the surrounding world. The Angle and Yondershire were promising; they had interesting, unique, relevant stories that expanded nicely on the existing world, and I very much enjoyed playing through both. The Wildwood was a proof-of-concept area that SSG as a whole was apparently reluctant to put time into. Hopefully, now that the team is more fully invested in filling in the gaps, we'll get better content.

I like the idea of expanding on Gabilshathur in a Mount Gram region. Gabilshathur has always felt oddly out of place to me, so I would enjoy seeing it get some additional context.

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

I agree about Wildwood feeling generic and grindy. I enjoy the fact that Wildwood exists more than I enjoyed playing through the area itself, if that makes sense. Playing through the actual quests felt a bit tedious. I hope they're able to come up with better stories for future fill-in areas and that they're better able to integrate them into the surrounding world. The Angle and Yondershire were promising; they had interesting, unique, relevant stories that expanded nicely on the existing world, and I very much enjoyed playing through both. The Wildwood was a proof-of-concept area that SSG as a whole was apparently reluctant to put time into. Hopefully, now that the team is more fully invested in filling in the gaps, we'll get better content.

I like the idea of expanding on Gabilshathur in a Mount Gram region. Gabilshathur has always felt oddly out of place to me, so I would enjoy seeing it get some additional context.

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I agree :) For example, Wildwood I think could've used more to do with Bill Ferny, Harry Goatleaf, and those Orcs near the region - but at the same time, I kind of liked the feel of "these are ordinary people who have their own problems that have little to do with Sauron" in those quests, which really does help make the world feel............... more lived-in. The style of the quests needed a little more work- I still liked it.

Yes to a Mount Gram region. They can have tall mountains separating the PVE from the PVMP areas and have it due north of the Lone-Lands and east of Dol Dinen. That would be a gap worth filling.

I'd even say it wouldn't be a bad thing to have a "PVE copy" of the Moors with portals to get to, if players wanted to just take-in that region of Middle-earth, while leaving PVMP alone as its own thing. But anyways.

The gap between Evendim, Forochel, Northern Ered Luin, and Ered Luin is also promising since Yondershire basically helped "box-it-in" as a gap between existing areas. The South Farthing will become like that when Swanfleet enters the game.

If its the whole super-chunk of landscape, I'd even say this next major update would indeed open the door to the coastal lands - using the rivers as natural zone boundaries between the Brandywine and the Gwaithlo and then between the Gwaithlo and the Isen. That would then open the door for the missing parts of Gondor. So many possibilities from what they are up to :)

I'm totally with you on the exploring; I really enjoy that aspect of it most of all.

I would say though that they ought to consider a balanced approach with, say, 1 part of the year focused on level-cap stuff and the other part more focused on filling-in-gaps. I think it would be healthier for the game to not leave anyone dangling there. I think it would also help solve their "gloom and doom fatigue" issue by basically going between, say, "Black Book level" types of stuff, maybe it is time to start the Fellowship moving more homeward, and filling-in new regions.

A glaring gap in Frodo's story I'd like them to fill before Frodo heads home, actually, is the missing Emyn Muil- I'd love it if they could kind of go-in and tackle that messy area with Mouths of the Entwash, Nindalf, Emyn Muil, and the Dead Marshes. It'll be tricky as 3 different zone-maps meet there, but I'm thinking the clearest solution would be to just put it all in the Gondor map rather than the Rhovanion one. Players could cross from Amon Lhaw into the Gondor map and have those areas to explore; it would be nice also for them to chop down those reeds and allow players to follow the whole Anduin southeast of Rauros as it feels very unnatural currently.

With Frodo still in Minas Tirith, we have a premise: maybe Sam wants the Player to go back and retrace their steps sort to speak, with ropes as part of the quest-line, and they could do more "flashback" instances such as their first confrontation with Gollum / "The Taming of Smeagol" and all of that sort of thing. LOTR is not complete in-game, for those really focused on retracing Frodo's footsteps, until this is added, and I would want to see this before the "Homeward Bound" stuff. It's a spot in the current map(s) in need of some tidying up that indeed had some pretty important lore stuff happen there.

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

I kind of liked the feel of "these are ordinary people who have their own problems that have little to do with Sauron" in those quests, which really does help make the world feel............... more lived-in. The style of the quests needed a little more work- I still liked it.

I'm totally with you on the exploring; I really enjoy that aspect of it most of all.

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That's true, although as discussed - it made the region feel a bit 'generic' and 'poor-made' (kind of) when compared with the likes of the Angle and Yondershire. Which is why I think the story-driven (so mostly progressing quest chains) design focus is their safest bet when working on new content and designing zones but BUT...

... hmm it doesn't mean they can't add more of such 'generic' quests throughout newly designed areas (not much thought needs to be put into them other than "kill X of that" etc.) or even - as a side project if one of the devs is willing - introduce such auto bestowed landscape quests across the lands of Eriador and beyond. So then places like Rohan would feel less 'linear', if someone doesn't want to do everything in order they would still discover MORE places auto bestowing some more 'generic' tasks. There ARE such quests in the game already but not enough. Quests which aren't locked behind certain quest chains, where you may just stumble upon enemy camp and a bunch of quests will pop up, even though it's part of the storyline they aren't really locked behind chain progression... but they are only so few that it's still not enough and usually you'll find vast spaces and lots of locations with mobs that are just... quest-empty if you've never followed the quest chain! So it would be nice to have more places in the world - regardless of main storyline - auto-bestow more generic tasks. THAT coupled with task boards and auto bestowed that already exist in the game - it would open lots of playstyle possibilities and even more opportunities for variations on different chars.

Let me explain. So the Wildwood has so many of these seemingly 'generic' hubs with mobs in them, all have quest attached so it's auto bestowed, no need to bother with NPCs. Sure, there is some kind of story, like you mentioned, the little problems of the local people because they need food or because these places infested by mobs need to be cleared out and free peoples will be happy with our effort. Now, in Wildwood specifically this is also done because they're repeatables of the region needed for rep, sure, but what if the same could be done in some old Eriador places? On a bigger scale than it is being done currently? To provide an 'alternate leveling' options for independent adventurers? So not a revamp of zones (which takes time, but stories are good, leave them intact) but an extra layer of 'more generic' quests added to zones. So it's not like the 'alternative' option is to go to Yondershire and relive all of the story bits with Lotho's bounders *all over again* but more like "hey, here is that quest that popped up, oh and in that place there is another' either on landscape or after you kill a mob while freely exploring.

However, for obvious reasons, such additional 'extra' quests added wouldn't provide rep, count for deeds, so couldn't become a source of easy farming, but you get exp to advance levels and it doesn't feel like you're forced to participate in the known story chains all over again (with some very annoying hassles in certain places like quest locks, chains starting in point A who-knows-where that you missed etc). But instead you can enjoy an independent adventure while travelling across Middle-earth in a direction of your choice, not forced to grind exp on missions/innis/skirmishes which isn't exactly immersive/appealing as far as exploration of Middle-earth goes (still gotta deal with the bounds of lvl ranges for areas, which is why those filling-the-gaps lower lvl zones are needed too).

Like, since they gave away all of the old content anyway, something like 'we can't introduce more quests alongside the old quest chains because then nobody will feel like they need to buy next zones to lvl up" isn't relevant anymore, at least up to Helm's Deep level range - this is basically void now, everyone can level up for free, at least to Helm's Deep. But to allow a player to feel like they're more in an open-world in terms of their leveling up experience would have been amazing (on alt or otherwise, I guess there *are* plenty of players who just play a game and don't care about story anyway, racing to the cap, so that would be attractive to these types of people too!). This wouldn't be something done over the day of course. But if such philosophy could be considered by the devs... now THAT would make the immersion a bit more nuanced, if someone wants to skip the storylines/already knows them/doesn't care about them/wants to feel free in their exploration and not being forced to town B because NPC from town A redirects you there during the lengthy quest chain and if you don't do that you might be locked out of most regional quests/exp gains altogether.. Since there is no reliable landscape alternative, in the end... you're forced to play though chains anyway (or repeatable innis) and things become tedious, with no room for more unique type of free roaming adventure

IF AT LEAST ONE DEV thought it's a cool idea and made it their goal to design a couple of such new auto-bestowed quests in a random location of choice (that doesn't have such activities available without participating in a chain) at least once or twice a week, and been doing it regularly... a pretty neat Eriador package would become a thing in some time. Someday... perhaps more? So you haven't really began any quest chain but one day you stroll into some ruins with Dourhands and you get this auto-bestowed quest from kills or supply destruction, Wildwood style.

And they don't really loose anything here as far as game's monetization goes (exp boosts would still be attractive, perhaps even more so if you KNEW you can get through the game with them and NEVER feel forced to participate in a 'tedious' / 'known' chains, being more free in your experience). Also, I wouldn't even mind if they made such package/packages LOTRO Store purchasable. It appears on landscape, is not part of the regional quest chain but part of this brand new "extra Eriador quests' package and - naturally - you'll immediately be directed to the store and see which package you need to purchase. It's win-win. I'm sure it would sell like hot bread on alts or otherwise. And would make the world feel more alive/a bit less linear for players who wish to experience it like this.

Unless SSG provides lots of alternative paths for level ranges specifically (so like Yondershire, the Angle, Wildwood, alternative to Rohan in the future etc) you still wouldn't be able to move super-freely between areas because you gotta follow the lvl ranges but AT LEAST your elf wouldn't be forced to take part in non-elf-business activity because the story says so etc. Or your man roleplayed as a ranger forced into delivering mail across a shire or solve weird problems of some townsfolk, just to be able to raise exp. Instead they can roam freely, protecting Middle-earth from the shadows. Which I think would provide lots and lots of freedom... Without compromising the game's storytelling that's mostly linear-styled, out of need. And the 'linear' style - even with lots of lower level Filling-the-gaps regions introduced - would STILL be a GIANT issue, tbh, in lots of areas, so Filling-the-gaps alone doesn't really solve all of the hassles

Wow, that sentence of your quoted above really inspired lots of thought here. But the simplicity of this idea really makes sense and is worth of the dev time, I think. if they have time/willingness for filling-the-gaps projects -which implies they care about making the world feel even bigger, more interconnected, more impressive, more of an "open world" experience in the world of Tolkien - surely something like I proposed here may look valuable too? Perhaps should post this in a suggestion forum idk. What do you guys think?

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Yes to a Mount Gram region. They can have tall mountains separating the PVE from the PVMP areas and have it due north of the Lone-Lands and east of Dol Dinen. That would be a gap worth filling.

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I would be glad to see Agamaur and Garth Agarwen feel like a more natural part of the larger world. Not just... this weird 'mini-Mordor' built over the ruins kind of place, awkwardly in the middle of Eriador. Some barriers are fine, and game-design needed, but crumbling some of the Northern mountains and creating more passages into the North and eastward into Northern Trollshaws... that would change A LOT...

A zone that added Mount Gram and expanded the Weather Hills could serve as a hub connecting the Bree-Lands, the Lone-Lands, the Trollshaws, the North Downs, and Angmar, as well as any potential areas SSG might want to add between Angmar, the Misty Mountains, and Rhovanion (the Ettendales? The Iron Pass?). It could connect to a landscape version of the Moors as well if SSG decided to add one. It's probably the single best bang-for-their-buck location in terms of making the world feel more open and connected and less fishbowly. Between Mount Gram, the dwarves in Othrikar and Gabilshathur, the movements of the orcs, the earth-kin, the hill men, the rangers, the hobbit village in the Moors, and the history of Rhudaur and Arthedain and the struggle to control Weathertop, it's also an area that's super rich in story. It's not just a places where a number of different regions meet; it's a places where a number of different PEOPLES meet, both currently and in millennia past.

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

A zone that added Mount Gram and expanded the Weather Hills could serve as a hub connecting the Bree-Lands, the Lone-Lands, the Trollshaws, the North Downs, and Angmar, as well as any potential areas SSG might want to add between Angmar, the Misty Mountains, and Rhovanion (the Ettendales? The Iron Pass?). It could connect to a landscape version of the Moors as well if SSG decided to add one. It's probably the single best bang-for-their-buck location in terms of making the world feel more open and connected and less fishbowly. Between Mount Gram, the dwarves in Othrikar and Gabilshathur, the movements of the orcs, the earth-kin, the hill men, the rangers, the hobbit village in the Moors, and the history of Rhudaur and Arthedain and the struggle to control Weathertop, it's also an area that's super rich in story. It's not just a places where a number of different regions meet; it's a places where a number of different PEOPLES meet, both currently and in millennia past.

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Yeah. If I could go back in time and plead with then-Turbine to do anything different world-building-wise, it would be the Moors. The Moors as a PVMP area should've been in its own, set-apart from the game-world area like Blood of Azog and Mordor Besieged, not plopped in a sectioned-off part of the actual game-world no one can get to save via stablemaster anyway.

To my mind, that was a complete waste of a PVE Moors region as a regular game zone; it wouldn't have impacted PVMP in the slightest if their Moors was out on its own map. Instead, we have this mess where the landscape should be connected between Angmar, Moors, ND, Trollshaws, Lone-Lands, maybe even into the Misties, but it isn't because of that decision they made way back when.

Doubtless, they probably can't do that now, and so I'm not optimistic they'll ever really give that area justice. At least filling-in as many areas as possible around the Moors might make things feel a little better, *shrugs shoulders.*

There's only 1 way they could really do something with that short of moving the whole PVMP zone that would probably never happen; that would be to make the PVE Moors the instanced area, using caves in Mount Gram, the Etten-caves in the current Trollshaws, maybe a hidden path behind the Lost Temple, etc., as the means of access, with a cave-route through Dol Dinen and from southeast Angmar. I'd be happy with that; it would mean they wouldn't have to touch the current PVMP zone as far as development goes, and it would be an illusion I'd be fine with if that was possible. I.E. A PVE Moors would be the "set apart zone" like Mordor Besieged, etc.

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

To my mind, that was a complete waste of a PVE Moors region as a regular game zone; it wouldn't have impacted PVMP in the slightest if their Moors was out on its own map. Instead, we have this mess where the landscape should be connected between Angmar, Moors, ND, Trollshaws, Lone-Lands, maybe even into the Misties, but it isn't because of that decision they made way back when.

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Which is why - being underdeveloped as it is so can't really be described as 'mega VIP feature worth the subscription' - they would do better if they came up with alternative Moors monetization of Freeps bur otherwise make the area accessible to all, and part of open world... with the release of surrounding regions, or - at first - just additional Northern part of Trollshaws that connects to it and maybe the road to Misties/Helegrod, because SERIOUSLY, there MUST be a road that all of the dwarves and other travelers take to venture into Misties and from there to Rhovanion. It's not like... everyone is supposed to party in a 'hidden' Valley of Elrond... and elves don't mind... because that sounds bizarre :P Sure, they would welcome a stray adventurer or two, but lore-wise it shouldn't be a hotel and a well-known destination in terms of its EXACT location/way of entry :P (oh well, they do sell traceries now so there is always a huge crowd... but that doesn't count I guess)

Opening the Moors zone like this could even benefit PvMP in a way, get more people hooked if you could enter from adjacent zones and suddenly you're in this area of Eriador's 'war zone.' It would have been better and more beneficial than just removing/moving the Moors altogether and then having to fill that part of the map anyway - but Moors actually make sense from the storytelling standpoint of Eriador plot threads, though it was never really outright told within the story but a new "Borders of Mount Gram" region could take care of that and we would see Angmar troops progressing from Eastern Angmar, probably gathering at Gram and then moving to the Moors where Creeps camp is. And it *does* make sense that they would try and target Rivendell, first and foremost, which explains why North Downs only has to deal with lesser host but there is actually an *outright battlefield* in the Moors, where the assistance of Free Peoples is urgently needed. Also, quite fitting, near to that large crossroad/unfilled space where all parts and cultures of Eriador meet... where the fate of Eriador is being decided in the field... At the same time, lots of Angmar remains emptied so makes sense the resistance is capable of inflicting damage and later the entire Amarthiel/Mordirith/Mordrambor triangle shenanigans do occur and yet... Sauron and the Nazgul don't feel like they need to intervene to get them to their senses - because the armies are on the front, as planned, so Sauron doesn't care other than that. Makes sense Sauron would just say ok, Amarthiel, do your best, but then Witch-king sends Mordirith back and they let them all fight it out while eating popcorn since it has no bearing on the overall military campaign

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Which is why - being underdeveloped as it is so can't really be described as 'mega VIP feature worth the subscription' - they would do better if they came up with alternative Moors monetization of Freeps bur otherwise make the area accessible to all, and part of open world... with the release of surrounding regions, or - at first - just additional Northern part of Trollshaws that connects to it and maybe the road to Misties/Helegrod, because SERIOUSLY, there MUST be a road that all of the dwarves and other travelers take to venture into Misties and from there to Rhovanion. It's not like... everyone is supposed to party in a 'hidden' Valley of Elrond... and elves don't mind... because that sounds bizarre :P Sure, they would welcome a stray adventurer or two, but lore-wise it shouldn't be a hotel and a well-known destination in terms of its EXACT location/way of entry :P (oh well, they do sell traceries now so there is always a huge crowd... but that doesn't count I guess)

Opening the Moors zone like this could even benefit PvMP in a way, get more people hooked if you could enter from adjacent zones and suddenly you're in this area of Eriador's 'war zone.' It would have been better and more beneficial than just removing/moving the Moors altogether and then having to fill that part of the map anyway - but Moors actually make sense from the storytelling standpoint of Eriador plot threads, though it was never really outright told within the story but a new "Borders of Mount Gram" region could take care of that and we would see Angmar troops progressing from Eastern Angmar, probably gathering at Gram and then moving to the Moors where Creeps camp is. And it *does* make sense that they would try and target Rivendell, first and foremost, which explains why North Downs only has to deal with lesser host but there is actually an *outright battlefield* in the Moors, where the assistance of Free Peoples is urgently needed. Also, quite fitting, near to that large crossroad/unfilled space where all parts and cultures of Eriador meet... where the fate of Eriador is being decided in the field... At the same time, lots of Angmar remains emptied so makes sense the resistance is capable of inflicting damage and later the entire Amarthiel/Mordirith/Mordrambor triangle shenanigans do occur and yet... Sauron and the Nazgul don't feel like they need to intervene to get them to their senses - because the armies are on the front, as planned, so Sauron doesn't care other than that. Makes sense Sauron would just say ok, Amarthiel, do your best, but then Witch-king sends Mordirith back and they let them all fight it out while eating popcorn since it has no bearing on the overall military campaign

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I agree- so long as the actual PVMP was its own thing with "Borders of Mount Gram" as a PVE zone along with a PVE Moors as part of it. I agree there'd probably be a road into the Misties that's not the hidden road into Rivendell.

The problem for landscape contiguity remains that the PVMP Moors is in the actual coordinates' location on the Eriador map. As it would probably take way too much Dev time and would turn out impractical to "uplift the PVMP Moors into its own public instanced area" (wouldn't that help with lag though?), the only alternative would be to make the PVE Moors the "public instanced area" using portals as the means of entry. They do have the Etten-Caves in the North Trollshaws as I've mentioned. They could have a spur of the Great East - West Road head north between say Rivendell and Lost Temple to connect with Misties and the PVE Moors, maybe a road along the Hoarwell on the Trollshaws side heading to a "pass" through the hills. They'd probably need barricades and transitions into the zone akin to . . . the movement between Dunland and West Rohan in the Gap. That's probably the only way we'd realistically get anything beyond the status quo from that neck of the woods, unfortunately.

Alas that then-Turbine decided to plop that area in the game-world instead of its own instanced space. It's really caused quite a bit of problems when it comes to filling-out that part of the map: probably something we'll never see done in that area. It's a pity . . . though worth a shot talking about it at least.

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

The problem for landscape contiguity remains that the PVMP Moors is in the actual coordinates' location on the Eriador map. As it would probably take way too much Dev time and would turn out impractical to "uplift the PVMP Moors into its own public instanced area"

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I guess we have no way of knowing and it depends how would it affect the server performance, if at all (the Moors map already exist at Eriador coordinates, after all - they're right there fighting it out beyond those mountains, you just don't see them and there is no physical path to get there, but it IS actually there if I understand this correctly). So... it wouldn't surprise me if ALL it takes is putting a special effect on Creeps -> if they leave the Moors they're instantly dead, something like that. With physical pathways opened transitioning for Freeps would be more natural of course - they enter according to natural map coordinates, just like from Lonelands to Trollshaws, only have the Moors mechanics applied to the character at entry point, the same as when they swift travel from a stable I guess it's not much difference. And they could still swift travel from a stable of course.

We have Reduced Awareness all the time applied to zones so I guess Moors works kind of like that too when you enter (or EXACTLY the same). So it is a VIABLE option that Moors connected physically (as is) to rest of Eriador wouldn't really cause much problem and probably easier than having 2 Moors like a PvE and PvMP ones

I would like to be able to just swim all across Hoarwell to Etternmoors and stumble upon some Creeps collecting hobbit legs and then I come to the rescue from the river :P Seriously, think about the immersion here, it's clear they won't put much resources into PvMP but that kind of immersion and natural entry points might spark more activity for the Moors in the future - with newbies who aren't really here for PvP experience... actually getting hooked, at least for a time, and that would be a lot I guess

Well anyways, it'll be fun to see how the lands south of Bree and Lone-Lands connect.


Judging from what terrainmap shows, I have a feeling that Tharbad may have a layout similar to Osgiliath where it straddles the river, except that it'll have a lot more waterlogged, since the lore has it kind of sunken down in the fens with a lot of bogs / marshes and the far-too-hasty currents of the river that made attempting to ford or cross it treacherous.


I also have a feeling that'll mark the southwestern-most border of the zone, which probably more or less will follow the hypotenuse of that triangle up to the pass to Andrath. Whether we will see where it borders the Brandywine remains to be seen; it's not impossible they'll be some impassable hills between the new zone and the eastern shores of the Brandywine because they might not want the South Farthing or Sarn Ford in direct player-view yet, depending on their plans (*and they'd know everyone would clamor for the South Farthing next if it was in immediate visible sight).

So, I wouldn't be shocked if the line of hills going south / southwest of Andrath and the Barrow-downs is the "zone border" for now unless they really are planning on South Farthing in the cards. I'm thinking of past zone design there as well: like how we can't see the Tower Hills or the Far Downs much because of the way they designed the hills around Michel Delving and Yondershire. The Iron Hills also were tucked away and so was Ered Mithrin when it was just the Dale-lands and Eryn Lasgalen.

I also noticed something curious on a very zoomed-in version of the Terrainmap (sorry, I don't have access to the screenshot tech right now) of something resembling an Elven building like in Celondim (maybe seekingerin would like to take a look? :) ). I think its in the southwestern portion of the zone.

We do need to remember that there is considerable Second Age backstory for the region. The Elves basically controlled most of Eriador before Sauron invaded; there were settlements, etc., across Eriador, not only in Lindon or Eregion. But the main decisive battle that ended Sauron's attempt to destroy the Elves in Lindon was fought between the Gwaithlo and Brandywine Rivers - the Battle of the Gwaithlo - and Sauron was soundly defeated by the combined forces of Gil-galad and Numenor near Tharbad / in that vicinity, with only Sauron and his personal guard escaping.

So, as the Angle brought-in more about the history of the War of the Elves and Sauron, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole Swanfleet / Tharbad / River-lands region does something similar. That really was the most important victory in the history of Middle-earth (*past the First Age) before the Last Alliance and Pelennor Fields / Black Gate, and I'd argue it was the most important victory next to the War of Wrath because it was Sauron at his zenith, as his most powerful in his fair form with his One Ring, at the crucial moment when Sauron was virtually about to "win" - to dominate Middle-earth and force the Elves out to the West - but for Numenor intervening.

Sauron never got that far ever again, really; the closest he got was Angmar bringing down Arnor, but Angmar got squashed in the end, and but for remnants left to haunt certain lands like the Barrow-downs, and LOTRO's interpretation of things in the North as far as game-lore goes, Sauron really never came that close again to, say, conquering all of Middle-earth as far as the northwest / Eriador. Tharbad isn't just some leaky, dinky port where nothing of consequence happened; it has a history and an important one.

I'm excited to see if / what they may do with this stuff in the next upcoming zone :)

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

...I also noticed something curious on a very zoomed-in version of the Terrainmap (sorry, I don't have access to the screenshot tech right now) of something resembling an Elven building like in Celondim...

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I was wondering when someone would notice that one lone building. Looks like a circular roof, but there is nothing around it. I guessed it was just a placeholder for a future village or city location.

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Originally Posted by Garan

I was wondering when someone would notice that one lone building. Looks like a circular roof, but there is nothing around it. I guessed it was just a placeholder for a future village or city location.

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I don't see it. Coords please?

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Originally Posted by auximenes

I don't see it. Coords please?

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Eriador: 52.93S, 46.20W

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Originally Posted by Garan

I was wondering when someone would notice that one lone building. Looks like a circular roof, but there is nothing around it. I guessed it was just a placeholder for a future village or city location.

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I do not know if it is a hint for future settlements or a remnant of old test content. Personally I believe the latter, but I have no proof at hand. Time will tell.


https://i.imgur.com/xN26vXO.jpg

well, Scenario can always reuse it/modernize it/replace it for some ruined settlement

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Originally Posted by Garan

Eriador: 52.93S, 46.20W

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Oh, that's why I can't see it. The plug-in must have newer data than the website.

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Originally Posted by MiniExpBounder

I do not know if it is a hint for future settlements or a remnant of old test content. Personally I believe the latter, but I have no proof at hand. Time will tell.
https://i.imgur.com/xN26vXO.jpg

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You must have escaped the boundaries. Naughty naughty.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

I also noticed something curious on a very zoomed-in version of the Terrainmap (sorry, I don't have access to the screenshot tech right now) of something resembling an Elven building like in Celondim (maybe seekingerin would like to take a look? :) ). I think its in the southwestern portion of the zone.

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I don't have any special powers to view this sort of thing. :) I know there are ways to reach parts of the world that we aren't able to access, but I don't know how to do it. The only reason I was able to view hte new area and get the screenshots I posted earlier in this thread was that SSG had accidentally included landscape changes in a live build that they didn't mean to. I'd love to be some sneaky out-of-bounds-exploring ninja, but all I did was climb a gentle hill. :)

Fortunately, I see someone else was able to sneak in there and get a screen grab for us. I agree with MiniExpBounder; I don't know if this is a settlement under construction or the remnants of some old project. I do agree that the Royal Road needs an elven presence, though. There's not much going on in this part of the world at the moment, but it's an area that's rich in history, and the devs have always been good at drawing on that history. And the elves and their interactions with the Numenoreans and their wars with Sauron are a big part of that history. Hopefully they're able to find ways to draw on that history to make this area interesting (keeping in mind, of course, that they might not have the rights to engage with all of those stories).

I agree about the location of Tharbad. I also think it will straddle the river, with Tharbad's broken bridge connecting the two halves of the city. I'm interested to see how they handle Tharbad: how much of the city is still physically intact, whether or not they make it an enemy hub, whether or not they set some instances there, and how they handle the collapsed bridge (which needs to both be a treacherous crossing and serve as the primary way for players to cross the Gwathlo in this part of the world).

On an entirely different note, I was watching Scenario's Casual Stroll through Enedwaith the other day, and someone brought up the idea of adding the rest of the Greenway to the game. This was Scenario's answer:

"I think, much like my desire to eventually do the Tower Hills so that Ered Luin and the Shire can be connected, I think the Greenway is another thing where we all have just kind of a wistful wish for that to happen at some point but don't have any specific plans for it to happen. And a lot of that's just because, you know, we have our ideas and the path we want to follow, the road we want to follow to do our future updates. And that may end up being more of a, like, this is our, you know, side trip kind of stuff. You know, someone has a little bit of extra time here and there, and they pick away at it, and then we have something like the Wildwood if something like that were to ever happen."

Make of that what you will. I think this video was probably posted around August of last year. My read of this is that they've changed plans since August, and that they've paused their longer-term plans to add long-awaited areas like the Yondershire and the Royal Road to the game. I think maybe their plans have shifted as a result of the Wildwood, the Angle, Yondershire, and perhaps Scenario's Casual Stroll series itself, as well as their Gundabad-related burnout. I also get the impression, watching the Casual Stroll videos, that the decision to build Yondershire was surprisingly recent. The same is probably true of the Royal Road area.

And one more completely unrelated set of ideas, lol. I was riding around Eregion, passing time while I waited for a raid to start. I climbed to the top of Echad Mirobel and looked out; and as I did so, I realized two interesting things. One, I realized that I could see a road running through the tract of land between Eregion and the Angle; and two, I realized that I was able to match up some of the features I could see in the distance with some of the features I saw looking out from the Gloomglens a few weeks ago. I thought I'd post what I was able to figure out here; it gives a little extra context to the screenshots I posted earlier in this thread.

The first screenshot here is a screenshot I took tonight from the top of the staircase leading to the top level of Echad Mirobel; I've included some structures halfway up Echad Mirobel, as well as the bridge leading to the ring forge (which we visit in the instance "The Doom of the North"). The second and third screenshots are ones I took a few weeks ago and posted earlier in this thread. I've circled the areas of interest in these screenshots in various colors. If a point of interest appears in multiple screenshots, I've circled it with the same color in each screenshot.

I believe the hills I've circled in red, yellow, and orange correspond between the three images. The purple circles show where the Glanduin flows from Eregion into the new area. The white circles show the northeastern extent of the Swantfleet marshlands. The pink circles indicate another river that feeds into the Swanfleet, likely originating in the hills along the west side of Fordirith in Enedwaith. The black circles probably require the most explanation. There are some tall pillars in the ring forge instance, which tower over the rest of the ruins. It's not super clear in my screenshot, but these pillars are very faintly visible from the hill where I took the second and third screenshots. The green circle in the screenshot I took tonight is Thelgarth, the ruins at the southern end of the Angle, on the large hill just south of Tornhad. The blue circle indicates what appears to be a road leading from Eregion into the new area, which indicates to me that the space between Eregion and the Angle WILL be part of the new area.

I didn't think to circle it, but there's another river that feeds into the Swanfleet just north of the hill circled in red; this river is visible in both screenshots as well. It's NOT the river that runs through Cliffsburg's ravine, nor is it the Gwathlo or the Glanduin; it's another river, which must start in the hills along the west side of Fordirith in Enedwaith.

https://i.imgur.com/YKQlyVD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ia8KmVj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/08tuQHx.jpg

Oh, and here's the original screenshot I took tonight without my markings. This view is 100% accessible in game; you just need to climb to the top of Echad Mirobel to see it.

https://i.imgur.com/V7VmluR.jpg

Annnnnd here's essentially the same view from Scenario's Casual Stroll through Eregion, filmed June of last year. The difference since last year is MASSIVE.

https://i.imgur.com/ALgIykX.jpg

Wow, yeah, this is a major difference, cool to see how they collapsed all the mountains and left that lone hill standing :D

Seeing the interestingly-crafted landscape East of the Angle across the river - with some pretty obvious invisible walls in places where there could have been a natural crossing and pathway up the hill on another side - I never had doubts they're going to include that space, sooner or later. There were also the Dunlendings who must have come from another direction than Trollshaws, so that was another hint, from the story stand point

This makes me wonder whether they get rid of that dried up river barrier in Western Eregion, which strecthes all across the map but mostly it's pretty unbelievable as a natural barrier and more of an "invisible wall." I would like the invisible wall to be gone completely but then, well, it depends on their philosophy here with lower level players who just started questing in Eregion and what's the adjacent zone's lvl gonna be. Still... even if it was lvl 140 I don't see any reason to panic :P Just don't put any mobs too close to the border with the lower lvl zone and it's fine, also nice way to show newbies there is still content to be enjoyed in Eriador on a higher level. Seriously, not a fan of "there needs to be a safe zone" and "subtle, narrow, limited tunneling between lower lvl / higher lvl zones." We have the 50 lvl half-orcs in Wehther Hills and 50 lvl Dourhands at Sarnur campsite that every lower lvl player undoubtedly stumbles into (which is an amazing feeling), why not more of that kind of 'lvl shock' - for the sake of immersion and natural landscape sculpting at borders, if needed

It's interesting that they seemed to have changed their philosophy regarding the Royal Road and these other areas so drastically. It may be motivated by the story reasons too (Road Back to the Shire, which I hope so) but the other part of it could really be Amazon's series and some kind of retelling of the Forging being in the works, with an expansion structured like Minas Morgul was - with one map as the retelling and the other something else, pushing an actual storyline further. Unless they even manage to do the compromise here, so lower lvl alternate map in Eriador + retelling/some part of storyline in that area on cap. But I doubt we're due for that kind of huge content/expansion already? In any case, no matter what they do with the Royal Road/Retelling, I would hope the two can be equally integral to the storyline rather than one of them being treated as a 'distraction lore tale' that only subtly intertwines with the other one.

Amazon serie is definitely a factor, just look at the High Elf now free for all :D I am happy that they are doing this fill the gaps, ulterior motives or not, Minhiriath- south Eriador have been asked for YEARS, and... well if the Amazon serie goes into Umbar-Harad territory, we may be seeing those as well in lotro, sooner rather than later ;) I know, wishful thinking. Now..... the one thing I really, really want out of these fill the gaps areas is a Moria levelling alternative as I said a few posts above. 50-55 and 55-60. However, they must not forget the level cap players will soon get bored of having just Gundabad and Hiddenhoard to run ad nauseum, so a new cap region is needed as well. And for that...... I hope for Nurn/Lithlad :P

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

The first screenshot here is a screenshot I took tonight from the top of the staircase leading to the top level of Echad Mirobel; I've included some structures halfway up Echad Mirobel, as well as the bridge leading to the ring forge (which we visit in the instance "The Doom of the North"). The second and third screenshots are ones I took a few weeks ago and posted earlier in this thread. I've circled the areas of interest in these screenshots in various colors. If a point of interest appears in multiple screenshots, I've circled it with the same color in each screenshot.

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Thanks for your work and great presentation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

Oh, and here's the original screenshot I took tonight without my markings. This view is 100% accessible in game; you just need to climb to the top of Echad Mirobel to see it.

https://i.imgur.com/V7VmluR.jpg

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This is awesome. Thanks for sharing!