Dev Diary Feedback: Solving Problems and Making Friends, Parts I & II

In today’s update we find Matt "Scenario" Elliott getting back to his roots as he takes us through the process of creating the new crafting instances. “As the development of Moria concluded, I found myself yearning to take a temporary step away from managing the World Design Team and back towards my foundations as a live designer. This is the story of how I spent my four weeks after Moria went live.”

Read more from Matt in Part I and Part II of his Developer Diary and post your comments here!

Aside from new lands, this is the feature I'm most looking forward to with Book 7. Log on at the wrong time and resource harvesting can be a little too competitive for me. I like to feel I'm in common cause with my fellow players, not racing to the next node ahead of the other farmers. Well done!

Good job Scenario!

These crafting instances sound like they will be alot of fun, I'm looking forward to trying them. :)

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Merrevail, Cave-claw/Deep-claw and Gredbyg deeds are fully supported by these instances

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Bravo! :) Good work.

Nicely written. It's kind of neat to see dev diaries that not only talk about the finished product (which, honestly, this one does only a little bit of) but also talk about the whole mindset and thought process that went into creating it.

Can't wait to try 'em out!

Very nice post. I just hope I can get to 58 before the patch comes out...

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Originally Posted by Scenario

I found myself yearning to take a temporary step away from managing the World Design Team

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I'm guessing this yearning started when Fantus joined your team right? :p

These look fun. You mentioned in the article you didn't gate them by profession, but why would a prospector want to run the wood node ones or scholar ones? Just for the random rewards and slayer deeds? Or will we still be able to gather the wood and scholar materials for our alts?

From what I can tell Scenario does great stuff, although I have to say the description of these instances (so far) hasn't really hooked me.

One of the things that keeps Vastin's IA instances tolerable even after a hundred or more runs is that very few of them are straight-up "grind through X trash mobs, kill boss, gather loot" affairs. Not all, but most have some wrinkle that makes you think a bit about what you are doing. Perhaps the new instances will have some similar twists, but if so the Dev Diary doesn't mention it. The fact that you may have to grind through different types of mobs is good, I suppose, but from the examples given it sounds like pretty much the standard fare of everything we have killed hundreds or thousands of already, so again it is hard to get too excited. It would be more fun if the mobs exhibited something resembling intelligent or organized behavior beyond what we see in landscape trash; the fact that goblins have a few special attacks, and merrevail have bats and stuns is (again) not something that will surprise or excite anyone who has made it to level 60.

As for the rewards, it is hard to tell much from the information provided, but I worry it will crater the market for crafting mats in the same way the daily mirror quests have flooded the market with free potions.

Any developer attention to crafting is of course a welcome change, but at the moment the list of non-consumable T6 items that are worth crafting can be counted on one hand with a finger or two to spare. Hopefully that will change in Book 7 as well.

I think this sounds fun. Hopefully it will be fun. Of course, we won't know for sure till book 7 releases on.... what's the date again? ;)

I like the idea of deep claws being in these instances. I'll be able to farm hides along with my wood branches. Merrevail and goblins drop vendor trash mostly, but it can be a decent money gainer. Any chance the merrevail and goblins in the crafting instances have a higher probability to drop 2nd age items? (wishful thinking)

If the "Delicious Oats and Honey" recipe is the *big* reward I get after killing the boss, I'm going to be... disturbed!!!

Also, I'd like for my lvl 60 woodsman to mine ore for my lvl 51 armourer. Will I be able to do that in the 2 prospecting instances? Or do I need to level my armourer up to 58+?

These new instances sound very appealing - well done!

:D Thanks, It was enjoyable following you through the design process. Now how come you did not do this before :rolleyes:.
The first thing I though of was why so high level? Although I'm sure there were lots of things taken into acount. It would be nice to have these for the various tradeskill levels.

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Originally Posted by swisskdl

These look fun. You mentioned in the article you didn't gate them by profession, but why would a prospector want to run the wood node ones or scholar ones? Just for the random rewards and slayer deeds? Or will we still be able to gather the wood and scholar materials for our alts?

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The quests are meant to be the driving incentive to run the instances that you don't have the professions for. You can also use the spaces to work on your deeds.

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Originally Posted by uadan

:D Thanks, It was enjoyable following you through the design process. Now how come you did not do this before :rolleyes:.
The first thing I though of was why so high level? Although I'm sure there were lots of things taken into acount. It would be nice to have these for the various tradeskill levels.

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It would definitely have been nice to hit all the tiers with these - but I only had 4 weeks, not 24 :) Perhaps for a future update.

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Originally Posted by LagunaD

One of the things that keeps Vastin's IA instances tolerable even after a hundred or more runs is that very few of them are straight-up "grind through X trash mobs, kill boss, gather loot" affairs. Not all, but most have some wrinkle that makes you think a bit about what you are doing. Perhaps the new instances will have some similar twists, but if so the Dev Diary doesn't mention it.

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Vastin's goals were a good deal more focused than mine - I wanted as much variability in the monsters themselves where as his instances are meant to be much shorter, less variable and more focused. I also have very little experience with the quest system so for my part it was best to start small while learning and then try something more ambitious in the future.

Great diary, look forward to checking these instances out!

I really enjoyed reading that. It's nice to know what the Dev was thinking.


It takes a brave man to put his thoughts to ink. :D

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Originally Posted by MithrilSoul

Nicely written. It's kind of neat to see dev diaries that not only talk about the finished product (which, honestly, this one does only a little bit of) but also talk about the whole mindset and thought process that went into creating it.

Can't wait to try 'em out!

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I'm also just now realizing this is just part 1 of my dev diary. So... enjoy it - more to come!

These sound great and I am looking forward to these small instances. I have been getting alot of enjoyment out of the Item Advancement instances and have been hoping for more of this type of content...

Which leads to my question... You wrote on page 2:

"While doing this, I found that I (and many other players as well) was getting an incredible amount of enjoyment in the repeatable Item Advancement instances"

Why is the re-running of Library of Steel being called a minor exploit and getting changed?

If so many people are spending their time running instances like LoS, and I assume the new crafting instances will attract these people too, why change them to require an infused adamant on every entry?

It seems that no harm is being done. The time spent is not out-of-proportion with reward given (IXP, chance of 2nd Age drops).

If someone has time to log on for a half hour in the evening and runs LoS twice, why create obstacles? Although I can see why you created restrictions in the crafting instances...

Thank you!

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Originally Posted by spiritintelligencia

Why is the re-running of Library of Steel being called a minor exploit and getting changed?

If so many people are spending their time running instances like LoS, and I assume the new crafting instances will attract these people too, why change them to require an infused adamant on every entry?

It seems that no harm is being done. The time spent is not out-of-proportion with reward given (IXP, chance of 2nd Age drops).

If someone has time to log on for a half hour in the evening and runs LoS twice, why create obstacles? Although I can see why you created restrictions in the crafting instances...

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I don't want to get too deep into defining exploits and what not so I'll just comment on the aspect of my diary you commented on.

My daily play experience for a while was a great big loop of Moria, hitting all the Mirrors and then capping my evening on completions of each solo IA instance. I had a lot of fun completing those runs. My comment was not made considering individuals who let the instance fail to farm it.

The fail-retry behavior was a detrimental pattern-of-play that made the servers cranky (sometimes very much so) which is why that issue is being addressed. That all said - this thread isn't about the IA instances beyond them inspiring my efforts.

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Originally Posted by Scenario

The fail-retry behavior was a detrimental pattern-of-play that made the servers cranky (sometimes very much so) which is why that issue is being addressed. That all said - this thread isn't about the IA instances beyond them inspiring my efforts.

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That seems a completely valid answer and I appreciate you taking the time... I don't think anyone wants to participate in any gameplay that actually effects the servers in such a way.

Edit: Ironically, my uneducated theory was that Turbine would WANT people locked up in tiny instances and that it used LESS resources.... And that since, large-scale world content is expensive to design and, as you said, gets visited once, then the small repeatables are a more efficient use of resources. Shows how much I know!

Thank you again! Looking forward...

Scenario ... nice diary. Interesting.

I am looking forward reading Part II ... do you get into details how you forced your group of world-builder-slaves to do their very best to create the most awesome instances in the whole game ... yours? :D

Enjoyed the read and looking forward to the new crafting instances. Gives me something to do other than trying to find a group to finish Volume I quests. :D

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Originally Posted by spiritintelligencia

...If so many people are spending their time running instances like LoS, and I assume the new crafting instances will attract these people too, why change them to require an infused adamant on every entry?

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Do these new crafting instances require a key to enter, such as infused gems?
If there are 6 new instances, in addition to the 6 existing IXP instances, I would surely run out of gems very quickly.

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Originally Posted by spiritintelligencia

That seems a completely valid answer and I appreciate you taking the time... I don't think anyone wants to participate in any gameplay that actually effects the servers in such a way.

Edit: Ironically, my uneducated theory was that Turbine would WANT people locked up in tiny instances and that it used LESS resources.... And that since, large-scale world content is expensive to design and, as you said, gets visited once, then the small repeatables are a more efficient use of resources. Shows how much I know!

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At the risk of mentioning "That Other Game" as an example, the way WoW's servers are set up, instances run on separate physical hardware, and can overfill or crash independent of the world itself. That's why when WoW gets overfull and something is going on that attracts a LOT of people to enter instances, when you try to zone in, you get "No instances available."

I'm making a presumption here, that LotRO's architecture is similar in that one respect. If it is, having people fail the instance means they're constantly holding an instance open. If lots of people do that, and lots of people are trying to play it "right," too, instance servers fill up. Since (normally) the world servers are meant to house the majority of players, instance servers are likely not as well equipped for that kind of sustained traffic. They're equipped for people to get in, do their thing, and go back to the world at large.

(Again, this is based on presumption from how other MMOs have handled instancing, mainly WoW, and could be completely incorrect in Turbine's server architecture.)

Loved the diary and looking forward to this so much. I am so tired of racing for nodes in the alley between Orc Watch and Grand Stair.
Question - Will the nodes have the same chance for Mithril Flakes? And will Foresters and scholars ever find a random flake in their nodes?
(they use them too ...why should prospectors get all the love?

now if I could only craft something T6 that players would want...

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Originally Posted by ArtphulDodger

Question - Will the nodes have the same chance for Mithril Flakes? And will Foresters and scholars ever find a random flake in their nodes?

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These instances use the same resource nodes as those found on landscape. What you can get on landscape is what you can get in the instances (including the Rich versions of each node type).

Thank you for the information, Secnario, but I have a few concerns. First, I'm not quite sure how the lock system is supposed to work.

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• Multi-stage locks allow players to spread an instance over multiple shorter play sessions or recover from unforseen events such as disconnects
• Multi-stage locks will allow un-harvested resources in a stage to disappear upon instance shutdown. These instances do have a generous shutdown time, so disconnected/crashed-out player should have ample time to re-enter the space and collect their resources

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I've never really encountered the lock system in LotRO, so perhaps this is clear to everyone else, but it seems contradictory to me. The locks allow you to spread the instance out over multiple play sessions, but unharvested resources will disappear once the instance shuts down: it certainly sounds an instance will shut down between play sessions.

Is it simply impossible to keep the state of the various nodes "in memory" between sessions, so you have to track the locks instead? I guess this isn't a problem if the resources are easy to get to, but otherwise it seems like anyone who has difficulty getting through a stage and leaves it for later will also lose out on the resources of that stage.

I'm also a bit nervous about this bumper crop of repeatable instances. It reminds me of the various Olthoi pincers, Eater jaws and what have you that could be turned in for XP on a timer from back in Asheron's Call. Now I certainly turned in many a body part for fun and profit over the years, but I noticed that after a while it became almost a chore: time to go back to the Olthoi mines, as it were. I cannot access Moria, so I'm not sure how the IA instances feel. But the more such things are added to the game, the more I worry about playing LotRO becoming a series of work-like chores. I hope that will not be the case here.

Finally, I'm sad to see that these instances will cover only levels 58 and 60. Not only does that continue the trend of ignoring those of us who don't have the expansion, but it seems a bit absurd to focus two whole sets of instances on such a short range of the leveling spread. I understand that demand for the newest resources is abnormally high in the wake of Moria's release, but lower tiers of crafting still exist and they need resources too. I dread the thought of having to dredge the Trollshaws for Dwarf Iron again; I'd love to try out some new instances with the chance at getting some DI as part of the reward.

I understand that Book 7 makes the hill smaller, but it's still a lot of work to get to the top and it would be nice if the trip there felt like it was half the fun rather than just a lot of paperwork we need to fill out.

Anyway, those are my concerns. But I like the idea, and it's always nice to see how things work behind the scenes.

-R

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Originally Posted by Russano

I've never really encountered the lock system in LotRO, so perhaps this is clear to everyone else, but it seems contradictory to me. The locks allow you to spread the instance out over multiple play sessions, but unharvested resources will disappear once the instance shuts down: it certainly sounds an instance will shut down between play sessions.

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I would guess that the nodes the areas only up to the lock point will disappear when you return, not the entire instance.

For example: Instance 1 = Area 1, Area 2, Area 3.
You progress through Instance 1 through Area 1 and Area 2, harvesting most of the nodes to that point and killing most of the mobs up to that point. When you enter Area 3, your lock is set to 1+2. You then exit the instance, the grace period ends, and it resets. The next time you come back, even if you missed a node or two, Area 1 and Area 2 will be completely empty. You will go through this time and only Area 3 will have nodes and mobs in it. You then clear that area and all the mobs to the end of Area 3, at which point you get locks 1+2+3. From that point on anytime you go back in the instance, it will be completely empty until the global reset 3 days later.

So it's only completely empty when you get the last lock and presumably have harvested most of the instance already. As long as you harvest everything up to the lock point when you leave, only that part will be empty when you return.

More generally, though, if they're relatively short instances like the Dolven-view LIs, you won't even need the stage locks at all, just run them start to finish twice a week and be done with it. :)

Nice idea, and nicely thought out.

Daily repeatable resource gathering quests were something I've been wanting for a very long time. Of course, I wanted them for earlier tiers too, and still do. I hope that you are actively considering implementing them!

However, I'd like to ask why one of the conclusions of your musings was that the lower level quests would be based for lvl58?

That seems high:

The playing time needed to get from 58 to 60 is not that much, and will be less when Bk7 hits live.

The most significant need for resources is for the grinding necessary to get to Master the appropriate tier. Once mastery has been acheived, the demand for crafted goods is low, and the need for resources (for a supreme master) is also lower than for pre-mastery. (NB: I recognise the general nature of the previous statement)

It penalises those that want to play a crafting focused character without focusing on levelling, it also gives credence to those who state that the game focus is to level your character to max as soon as possible, and that's when you can start really playing.

2) Reading between the lines, the resource nodes will be scholar, metals, and wood. What about leather? Yes, I know there are far more hide dropping mobs out there than there are equal level nodes, but then, node can be harvested without combat in many cases, hides cannot.

All in all, however, I'd like to say a hearty well done, and 'lets have some more!'

Having run most of the craft instances, I can say they are pretty good with the exception of one in the Redhorn Lodes which was near impossible to navigate (although that will likely work itself out with repetition).

They are certainly very good places for crafting resources, item experience and Lothlorien barter items.

My only complaints would be the resource chests which have pretty lame loot compared to the XP runes and rep barter leafs.As wel, the instances are all the same formula, collect x items, kill x mobs and kill boss. I really wish you had made them more interesting like some of the Dolven View instances. You can always harvest nodes once the instance is clear. The other minor item is that it would be nice if one of the barter/quest guys was also a vendor.

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Originally Posted by gildhur

I would guess that the nodes the areas only up to the lock point will disappear when you return, not the entire instance.

For example: Instance 1 = Area 1, Area 2, Area 3.
You progress through Instance 1 through Area 1 and Area 2, harvesting most of the nodes to that point and killing most of the mobs up to that point. When you enter Area 3, your lock is set to 1+2. You then exit the instance, the grace period ends, and it resets. The next time you come back, even if you missed a node or two, Area 1 and Area 2 will be completely empty. You will go through this time and only Area 3 will have nodes and mobs in it. You then clear that area and all the mobs to the end of Area 3, at which point you get locks 1+2+3. From that point on anytime you go back in the instance, it will be completely empty until the global reset 3 days later.

So it's only completely empty when you get the last lock and presumably have harvested most of the instance already. As long as you harvest everything up to the lock point when you leave, only that part will be empty when you return.

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It sounded slightly different to me: my guess was once you enter a stage, that stage will be blanked when the instance shuts down - whether or not you get past the lock to the following stage.

I think it would have to be that way to prevent people from "camping" the instance. Otherwise, you could enter Stage 1, farm the nodes, then log to let the instance reset, and repeat ad nauseum. If the instance can track which individual nodes have been mined, there'd be no need to de-spawn all unharvested nodes in the first place.

But it would be nice to get some clarification on this.

-R

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Originally Posted by Russano

I've never really encountered the lock system in LotRO, so perhaps this is clear to everyone else, but it seems contradictory to me. The locks allow you to spread the instance out over multiple play sessions, but unharvested resources will disappear once the instance shuts down: it certainly sounds an instance will shut down between play sessions.

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If you trigger a lock and do not harvest the resources that were associated with that lock, they will go away if you reload the instance. We are using locks to limit the frequency/available of the resources in these spaces. Normal play-throughs will see players not even worrying about losing the resources (as they will go through the entire instance in one shot). The locks are in place to make sure that should something unforeseen occur to the player, the loss will be minimized while also making sure that reset-loopholes are removed to keep the flow of resources balanced.

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Is it simply impossible to keep the state of the various nodes "in memory" between sessions, so you have to track the locks instead? I guess this isn't a problem if the resources are easy to get to, but otherwise it seems like anyone who has difficulty getting through a stage and leaves it for later will also lose out on the resources of that stage.

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The locks are a resource-inexpensive method of maintaining state. Otherwise, we'd have to keep the instance around on the server until the reset time hits. And that many extra instances hanging around all the time - not something that would make our servers happy. We work within the systems we have available. The Stage-lock system is something that has, mostly, been used for big ticket instances but we are trying to find other interesting applications for it.

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I'm also a bit nervous about this bumper crop of repeatable instances. It reminds me of the various Olthoi pincers, Eater jaws and what have you that could be turned in for XP on a timer from back in Asheron's Call. Now I certainly turned in many a body part for fun and profit over the years, but I noticed that after a while it became almost a chore: time to go back to the Olthoi mines, as it were. I cannot access Moria, so I'm not sure how the IA instances feel. But the more such things are added to the game, the more I worry about playing LotRO becoming a series of work-like chores. I hope that will not be the case here.

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Anything can become a chore if you do it enough. The trick is to make enough varied content across the board such that you can choose what you want to do when you want to do it and have enough repeatable content available to make it reduce the grind sensation. Instead of running these every day and feeling burnt out on them, why not switch it up - run these twice a week, run the mirrors twice a week, run IA instances twice a week? It isn't a min-max solution but it does allow for variety. :)

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Finally, I'm sad to see that these instances will cover only levels 58 and 60. Not only does that continue the trend of ignoring those of us who don't have the expansion, but it seems a bit absurd to focus two whole sets of instances on such a short range of the leveling spread. I understand that demand for the newest resources is abnormally high in the wake of Moria's release, but lower tiers of crafting still exist and they need resources too. I dread the thought of having to dredge the Trollshaws for Dwarf Iron again; I'd love to try out some new instances with the chance at getting some DI as part of the reward.

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Crafting Resources cover a very broad spread of items and skills. Unfortunately, developing instances to cover all Craft tiers was not feasible within the time that was available (I had 4 weeks to do all this work before I was pulled back to my other duties). As far as resource availability is concerned, Tier 6 is the worst off considering the low number of regions that can support it and that was why it was chosen.

Sounds great, but really think the major shortages are ore (k-iron and k-copper, too much k-gold and k-tin) and hides, I have all professions and find wood is not that hard to accumulate but ore and hides have really been difficult....this is a welcome addition.

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Originally Posted by anwar

Sounds great, but really think the major shortages are ore (k-iron and k-copper, too much k-gold and k-tin) and hides, I have all professions and find wood is not that hard to accumulate but ore and hides have really been difficult....this is a welcome addition.

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I wish you could make hope tokens from K-Gold :(

These instances should help a ton considering the super low k-iron node population.

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Originally Posted by Scenario

It would definitely have been nice to hit all the tiers with these - but I only had 4 weeks, not 24 :) Perhaps for a future update.

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just putting this out there....the recent uproar over quest arrows and what not, is probably a good indication that there those people who are going to say that turbine is making the game too easy blah blah blah....

Yay! Even more feedback!

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Originally Posted by Scenario

The locks are in place to make sure that should something unforeseen occur to the player, the loss will be minimized while also making sure that reset-loopholes are removed to keep the flow of resources balanced.

The locks are a resource-inexpensive method of maintaining state. Otherwise, we'd have to keep the instance around on the server until the reset time hits. And that many extra instances hanging around all the time - not something that would make our servers happy. We work within the systems we have available. The Stage-lock system is something that has, mostly, been used for big ticket instances but we are trying to find other interesting applications for it.

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Okay, I follow you. It would be nice if the resources would persist, but technical limitations are what they are.

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Crafting Resources cover a very broad spread of items and skills. Unfortunately, developing instances to cover all Craft tiers was not feasible within the time that was available (I had 4 weeks to do all this work before I was pulled back to my other duties). As far as resource availability is concerned, Tier 6 is the worst off considering the low number of regions that can support it and that was why it was chosen.

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Starting with tier 6 makes sense, although I hope that you'll get a chance to make lower tier versions soon. But even focusing on tier 6 materials, the two sets of instances cover a level gap of only two levels when that tier spans 10 levels. Why wasn't the lower level set focused on level 53 or so? That way you wouldn't have to be within shouting distance of the level cap to try the instances at all. Would lowering the low level version have caused problems?

Thanks again for taking the time to comment, Scenario.

-R

I whole-hearted disapprove of these new instances and the approach given. Given the assignment and objective, I can agree it was approached using good methodology to reach a desired outcome, but the end-goal I find to be flawed and detrimental to the greater community.

The objective is to give people access to crafting materials that they could not otherwise gather, due to lack of characters/professions. Whatever happened to those consignment-order NPCs? They didn't work? Nope, they worked just fine, it's that people didn't want to use them, because the rewards were randomish and trash. So rather than quickly and simply improve these, Turbine ate up 4 valuable weeks of a dev's time reinventing the wheel. Between the AH, friends, kins, or even the trade channel - how is it hard to come by materials? It's not, really. The only thing I don't have experience in is a much larger server, like Brandywine, but on Vilya there's more resources than I can shake a stick at. Scholar nodes are littered all over the place, same with ore nodes.

We'll wait and see I guess, but I don't understand the love-in for these instances. I see it as just another step catering to 'hold-my-hand-gamers.' My network of friends and personal alts can easily provide whatever I need, for myself or others. I do this by working at it, even with and in spite of competition. If someone takes an ore node I had in my sights, I move on, not head to the nearest soapbox and tell everyone how badly I have things, and why I should have a closet in my house where I can grind prospecting in solitude. If you've been wronged that badly, try becoming a country singer over playing competitive online games.

and so it begins.....

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Originally Posted by ArcticAurora

The objective is to give people access to crafting materials that they could not otherwise gather, due to lack of characters/professions. Whatever happened to those consignment-order NPCs? They didn't work? Nope, they worked just fine, it's that people didn't want to use them, because the rewards were randomish and trash. So rather than quickly and simply improve these, Turbine ate up 4 valuable weeks of a dev's time reinventing the wheel. Between the AH, friends, kins, or even the trade channel - how is it hard to come by materials? It's not, really. The only thing I don't have experience in is a much larger server, like Brandywine, but on Vilya there's more resources than I can shake a stick at. Scholar nodes are littered all over the place, same with ore nodes.

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It could also be argued that the consignment orders are not entirely successful because their mechanic is not a particularly engaging one and that players/crafters might better appreciate actually collecting the resources themselves as opposed to waiting out a timer.

It should also be noted that while the core of these instances are meant to appeal to crafters (or at the very least resource harvesters) that the instances have rewards that are worthwhile beyond just crafting. And as always - more content is better than less, correct?

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and so it begins.....

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And so what begins? Are you referring to Arctic's post? If so, what was wrong with it? I may not agree with him at all, but at least it was a well reasoned and written post. He gave his conclusions and some background as to how he arrived at it. Surely this forum has enough room for varied viewpoints?

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Originally Posted by Scenario

It could also be argued that the consignment orders are not entirely successful because their mechanic is not a particularly engaging one and that players/crafters might better appreciate actually collecting the resources themselves as opposed to waiting out a timer.

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Definitely. I have the ore consignment going on two of my alts pretty much constantly, but it's not entertaining content. The only reason I even do the ore one is because it's close enough to the Thorin's stable to be worth my time. I used to do the hides consignment in the Shire until I just couldn't stand taking the time for it any more.

These sound much more engaging, and like they will reward me for the time I put into them.

Will the Deep Claws in the instances be enough to supply Extraordinary Hide needs? Extraordinary Hides seem the rarest resource there is.

Huzzah for crafting instances. More content is welcome, ty.
However as an at least supreme level crafter in every craft and a kin level rep with every guild except tailoring and cooking, it seems to me you guys have to next work on making T6 worthwhile again across the board so it doesn't go to waste.

I hope you guys have some ideas..and I do realize some stuff is coming with book7 and book8. Hope it works out!

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Originally Posted by Scenario

As far as resource availability is concerned, Tier 6 is the worst off considering the low number of regions that can support it and that was why it was chosen.

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I disagree. T6 is the ore that is found in Moria. Moria is where we spend 90%+ of our gameplay time now.

T6 resources are in abundance right now. My map home is in Moria, I log off in Moria, I login in Moria, I run instances in Moria, I finish quests in Moria, I do everything in Moria.

The only time I venture out of Moria is to help low level friends or everyonce in awhile play my low level characters.


I had the same experience Pre-Mom, T5 crafting went quick, it was T1-T4 that was sort of a pain. Plus, since we were level 50 for so long we were always in T5 regions, where T5 nodes were.

Just like now, we are always in Moria, so we are always gathering T6 nodes.

Getting T6 materials isn't a problem, getting out of Moria and forcing yourself to run around the lower level regions looking around randomly for lower Tiered nodes is the problem. At least for me.


For instance, my SM jewelor is only level 40, never set foot in Moria or any T6 zone yet. He got SM from just doing T6 gem stones my main gathered and doing the jewelor guild recipes. He was only at T2 in Jewelor a month or 2 ago. I had to buy all the T2-T4 stuff to get through those tiers, my main had enough T5 beryls to get him through that tier just like he got through T6.

The max tiers(T5 previously and T6 now) are not hard to get the resourses. You get them all just doing your regular day to day questing and leveling up in Moria.

It's getting those lower tiers done that is the problem and where these types of instances would have shined in my opinion.


Why not put a selection box menu at the start of these instances you have and just let us select which tier of resourses spawn in these instances? Seems like an easy enough change/update. They'd still have their locks, so I could do T3 once a week, T4 the next week, etc etc etc.

The instances would still be level 58+ mob difficulty and everything else the same, just the tier of nodes that spawn would be selectable by the player.

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Originally Posted by swedishviking

and so it begins.....

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I won't apologize until you show me where in the Official Discussion Threads forum where it asks for Feedback is it not allowed for dissenting feedback to be displayed. Shall I make a vague/'roll eyeballs' quote in return?

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Originally Posted by Scenario

It could also be argued that the consignment orders are not entirely successful because their mechanic is not a particularly engaging one and that players/crafters might better appreciate actually collecting the resources themselves as opposed to waiting out a timer.

It should also be noted that while the core of these instances are meant to appeal to crafters (or at the very least resource harvesters) that the instances have rewards that are worthwhile beyond just crafting. And as always - more content is better than less, correct?

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I don't think anyone argues that they are not engaging, I know I certainly find them bland. That said, not every NPC one engages should be a highlight of their gaming career. It's a walking talking pixel stick, so get what you need and move on :) What was lacking with those consignment NPCs was the rewards. They were random, in too little quantity, and largely unknown. Timers can be altered, and during which a player could do other things than grinding resources.

I'm not seeing what the particular need was for this? Was it lack of desire to gather, lack of availability or variety due to over-farming/node camping? There's so many scholar mats that drop from mods, the friends I usually mail them to have asked me to stop because they're overloaded. I feel the net effect of these new instances will include additional surplus resources on the AH, further lowering the value and diminishing the hard work that others do to acquire such (especially true if extended to lower tiers). To help keep the Tin and Gold nodes down, and the K-Iron spawning, I regularly mine them to vendor or AH at minimal prices, what ever's higher. I think the real issue here comes down to catering to those who have less time or will (mostly the latter) to put in the currently required amount of work to gather materials or pay others for their time doing such.

I appreciate your reply and obvious interest in this, as well as your desire to gather feedback, however I feel it unfair to pin the notion of all content being worthwhile (AKA, the more, the better) on this matter. End justifies the means, right, or change for change-sake? I'll say no, new content for the sake of content isn't always better (See Guard forum, or other classes/things messed up by 'always good new content' - but that's a side issue, I digress). Attention given to content may be nice, but having an idea of the development cycle and the gaming industry tells me that your time could have been better put to use re-organizing the existing mechanism of consignment orders, even if you had to flash it up a bit. Unless of course I'm misunderstanding the core reason for why crafting was attached for these instances.

Was it:
- to provide small group content with an added bonus of having free crafting resources as a side perk
- to provide a crafting resource run with the added perk of xp and the usual mob drops
- both
- other, please explain

Either way, crafting is being diminished via dumping materials into the market, lowering prices, demand, and seeming to 'dumb down' yet another area of the game that previously someone would have to work for or pay someone else for. If this was an effort in part to help give attention to crafting, I think the boat was missed here. Crafted content is largely useless because of other gear options, and making more crafting materials will not improve this situation any. I contend that this is another step towards babysitter-gaming, and while it would never be officially called as such, I think we can see it catering to those with less will to do things. I look forward to gaining further insight.

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Originally Posted by swisskdl

T6 resources are in abundance right now.

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i haven't found them to be "in abundance". just getting to lvl 60, picking up what i found along the way, I've not found enough khazad iron to even bother starting T6 weaponsmith. admittedly, this was mostly running with my kinmates, who also have T6 metal-users, and therefore there's a lot of internal competition for the ore in addition to competing with everyone else on the server.

That said, depending on the time of day, there are times where the Redhorns are sparsely enough populated that I can go there specifically to find ore, and actually come back with enough to feel like i've done something besides run around in circles. Maybe. I do have a kinmate who's mastered T6, but he spends a LOT of time just out farming ore.

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It could also be argued that the consignment orders are not entirely successful because their mechanic is not a particularly engaging one and that players/crafters might better appreciate actually collecting the resources themselves as opposed to waiting out a timer.

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That's not been my experience. Maybe they've changed since original introduction, but the first time I did the wood & ore quests was the last time - I waited 24 hours for 4-5 pieces of raw materials in each case. Not very productive, considering that at least for the wood, I could have found more wood just running back and forth to the NPC than I got as the quest reward.

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Originally Posted by Kahuna

*clip*

That's not been my experience. Maybe they've changed since original introduction, but the first time I did the wood & ore quests was the last time - I waited 24 hours for 4-5 pieces of raw materials in each case. Not very productive, considering that at least for the wood, I could have found more wood just running back and forth to the NPC than I got as the quest reward.

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If it's a matter of ore depletion, then it's a server node regeneration rate that they would tweak, nothing more. That said, I play on Vilya, and at no point have I had an ore shortage, and I've done 24-shifts, and day or night makes no big difference.

RE: Consignments - again, it's the reward that sucked. Actually improve this and we're golden - if that's what the issue here. And by improve I don't mean +15% rewards and then wash hands of the matter.

I like it, but I don't like that you have to be level 58+ or 60+ to do the instances. What about all the lower level crafting tiers? It can be very difficult to gather a good amount of resources when there are two or more people working an area for that sole purpose.

There's a lot of things I don't like about the LOTRO crafting system, but my biggest complaint has got to be the fact that it's tied to a character level as opposed to your crafting skill level.

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Originally Posted by Kahuna

i haven't found them to be "in abundance". just getting to lvl 60, picking up what i found along the way, I've not found enough khazad iron to even bother starting T6 weaponsmith. admittedly, this was mostly running with my kinmates, who also have T6 metal-users, and therefore there's a lot of internal competition for the ore in addition to competing with everyone else on the server.

That said, depending on the time of day, there are times where the Redhorns are sparsely enough populated that I can go there specifically to find ore, and actually come back with enough to feel like i've done something besides run around in circles. Maybe. I do have a kinmate who's mastered T6, but he spends a LOT of time just out farming ore.

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What I mean is, once you are level 50, and more so once you hit 60 and are stuck at 60 for a year, you are 90 percent of your playtime or more in T6 resource zones.

Until they up the level cap and come out with a T7 in crafting, the rest of your play time will be around T6 nodes.

You have to go out of your way to get lower tiered nodes. T6 nodes will be everywhere you quest/play now-a-days. From Moria and now to Lothlorien (if there are crafting resources out there) to the next little zone they introduce. They are all T6 only zones and since you are level 50+ thats where you will be most likely doing your everyday things.

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Originally Posted by Laeden

I like it, but I don't like that you have to be level 58+ or 60+ to do the instances. What about all the lower level crafting tiers? It can be very difficult to gather a good amount of resources when there are two or more people working an area for that sole purpose.

There's a lot of things I don't like about the LOTRO crafting system, but my biggest complaint has got to be the fact that it's tied to a character level as opposed to your crafting skill level.

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All due respect, but lower level tiers being hard to gather stuff for? You're serious? It's all over the place. It's abundant and plentiful, in a variety of zones and areas. It'd take a LOT more than 2 people to make gathering difficult. It comes down to will-power and people wanting stuff handed to them on a platter (make it a silver platter too, and you can gather the silver and smith it for me too). Turbine currently is catering to this crowd at the expense of those of us who put in hard work. Now we're getting the shaft by way of misplaced development time on non-issues as well as having crafting mats given to others for 'free' :(

Actually their crafting system really isn't tier to level that much, beyond resource spawn areas and those 2nd anvil quests, aside from that, it's wide open. All you need it alts/friends to give you stuff and help get those crafting quest materials and you could be a lvl 2 SGM whatever you want.

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Originally Posted by ArcticAurora

Between the AH, friends, kins, or even the trade channel - how is it hard to come by materials? It's not, really. The only thing I don't have experience in is a much larger server, like Brandywine, but on Vilya there's more resources than I can shake a stick at. Scholar nodes are littered all over the place, same with ore nodes.

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Don't have the money for the AH, friends and kin mates are busy trying to level their own professions, and Trade prices are nearly always stupidly high. I agree that Scholar nodes are pretty easy to get and wood isn't real terrible, but on Landroval the sheer number of Explorer characters ripping ore nodes from the landscape is disheartening.

Metalsmith, weaponsmith, and tailor are the professions I haven't SM'd yet. Due to lack of resources I'm not close on tailor (still low in proficiency) and haven't even started weaponsmithing after all this time. I'm looking forward to these new instances. :)

With my main being a Historian, I do not see myself even needing these new instances. Unless some are built for tier 2, 3, 4, and 5 materials.

Since the first hour I spent in there, I have called Moria "Scholar's Revenge", due to the HUGE number of scholar nodes there.

I have mastered tier 6, gotten kindred in my crafting guild, and I have about 12 full stacks of tier 6 materials sitting collecting dust.

I can occasionally sell crafting bonus scrolls, but I can't even give away potions thanks to the mirror quests.

And the crafting journals? I can only make one if someone who wants it gives me the flake to put into it.

Now, if this dev diary said that flakes were being put as a rare drop in tier 6 scholar and wood nodes, I'd have been a whole lot more excited.

As it is, I have every crafting journal recipie memorized, and another 15 of various types in my bank. Taking up space.

And thanks to legendary items, no woodworkers or weaponsmiths are even LOOKING for crafting journals.

At least I can go garden if I get bored....

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Originally Posted by Thoroval

Don't have the money for the AH, friends and kin mates are busy trying to level their own professions, and Trade prices are nearly always stupidly high. I agree that Scholar nodes are pretty easy to get and wood isn't real terrible, but on Landroval the sheer number of Explorer characters ripping ore nodes from the landscape is disheartening.

Metalsmith, weaponsmith, and tailor are the professions I haven't SM'd yet. Due to lack of resources I'm not close on tailor (still low in proficiency) and haven't even started weaponsmithing after all this time. I'm looking forward to these new instances. :)

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Turbine is using a game-wide brush to address issues hitting certain servers more than others, if that's the case.

If you don't have all those things you stated, and prices are always high (doubtfully, but possible - cartel's are fun to run :D ), then I need to ask why crafting an issue to you? Crafted gear is near-useless compared to quest rewards. Fix crafting before 'fixing' those of us who are explorers and work for our mats. Even those ripping nodes are working, however inconvenient to yourself. I'd rather give you enough ingots to fill a mule than have this proposed alternative. I think it comes down to time and will-power.

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Originally Posted by swedishviking

and so it begins.....

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It's beginning? Cool. Much better than an inertial rest state.

A rolling stone gathers no moss, but it CAN gather momentum!

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, or it gets removed fromt he car and replaced with a better wheel.

A penny saved, is a penny earned, but a penny well invested is a dollar down the line.

We have nothing to fear, but fear itself. And spiders and werewolves....

Materials on Elendilmir seem pretty expensive on the AH most of the time. But that depends on one's wealth, of course. I have friends with 100+ gold who wouldn't bat an eye at spending 1-2 gold for a stack of 50 somethings they want. Lots of other friends, however, stay in the 5-10 gold range and its not something they can do on a regular basis.

Whether these instances are bad or not really depends on your motives for crafting. It'll probably hurt those who craft specifically for profit....especially all those explorers who sell mats. On the other hand, folk who mainly just craft for themselves or their friends are probably going to be quite pleased. One can now spend an hour or two a couple times a week and get a decent supply of materials to work with.

My kin has crafters for all the crafts, but other than scholar its all just a massive grind at the moment that none of them find "fun". And the constant stopping to harvest resources when we are questing is a nuisance also.

Redhorn Lodes are still safer and easier to harvest in than these instances, but more time consuming.

I think these sound really good. on the other two main arguments against it:

1. Consignment is incomprehensibly dull. This way we get chances for random drops (LIs, Flakes), rep, IXP, even XP if you're not 60 yet. It would hardly make sense to have consignments in Thorin's giving mithril flakes moria rep and IXP for no work at all except waiting. I suppose you could move the consignments to Moria but where? 21st Hall is crowded enough, so is Dolven. I think these instances are a really kewl solution. As it is I have to buy all my K-iron and hides from the AH. It is simply not convenient to farm them, I have too many other things to do.

2. I would like to see craft instances for lower tiers also but I understand the lack of time. I do like the level 58 and 60 restrictions for the reason that I can then get more extraordinary hides from them. Also if they were, say, 53 I would likely not be able to get K-iron, and K-copper/tin is in abundance (at least most places I go). I like the fact that it won't be just one instance for one craft for one kind of reward/tier.

Go Scenario go! :D Hope these work out and you get the experience needed to tackle something larger in the next books!

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Originally Posted by Scenario

And as always - more content is better than less, correct?

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More good content, yes ;)

This is shaping up to be pretty awesome, I am excited. My main hope is that we can get some Extraordinary Hides out of this. Those are the biggest problem I have.

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Originally Posted by Scenario

These instances use the same resource nodes as those found on landscape. What you can get on landscape is what you can get in the instances (including the Rich versions of each node type).

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So my question still stands- will scholars ever get a random flake, shard etc. or foresters get a bonus to their harvesting (instead of kindling.. ugh) prospectors getting random flakes ftw! .. just like to see the love spread.

thank you for the crafter love. Can't wait until release ..

soon

Looks like fun and a nice addition to the game. Good dev diary.

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Originally Posted by skadoink

And so what begins? Are you referring to Arctic's post? If so, what was wrong with it? I may not agree with him at all, but at least it was a well reasoned and written post. He gave his conclusions and some background as to how he arrived at it. Surely this forum has enough room for varied viewpoints?

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/sigh.....i'm not saying he shouldn't say anything, i was simply referring to the fact there would be people who would be upset that there are crafting instances to gain mats as i stated in this post:

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Originally Posted by swedishviking

just putting this out there....the recent uproar over quest arrows and what not, is probably a good indication that there those people who are going to say that turbine is making the game too easy blah blah blah....

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Originally Posted by ArcticAurora

I won't apologize until you show me where in the Official Discussion Threads forum where it asks for Feedback is it not allowed for dissenting feedback to be displayed. Shall I make a vague/'roll eyeballs' quote in return?

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did i ask you to apologize? no, i did not so dont put words in my mouth

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Originally Posted by ArcticAurora

All due respect, but lower level tiers being hard to gather stuff for? You're serious? It's all over the place. It's abundant and plentiful, in a variety of zones and areas. It'd take a LOT more than 2 people to make gathering difficult. It comes down to will-power and people wanting stuff handed to them on a platter (make it a silver platter too, and you can gather the silver and smith it for me too). Turbine currently is catering to this crowd at the expense of those of us who put in hard work. Now we're getting the shaft by way of misplaced development time on non-issues as well as having crafting mats given to others for 'free' :(

Actually their crafting system really isn't tier to level that much, beyond resource spawn areas and those 2nd anvil quests, aside from that, it's wide open. All you need it alts/friends to give you stuff and help get those crafting quest materials and you could be a lvl 2 SGM whatever you want.

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define hard work...

if hard work is time spent, then not everyone has the same amount of time as some people do. not everyone is goin' to go around for 3 hours to find mats.

if hard work is fighting hordes of mobs to just get the mats, then i dont see the problem as the instances require you to fight the mobs to get the resources and finish the instance. so there is no difference...

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Originally Posted by Merciful_Death

It's beginning? Cool. Much better than an inertial rest state.

A rolling stone gathers no moss, but it CAN gather momentum!

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, or it gets removed fromt he car and replaced with a better wheel.

A penny saved, is a penny earned, but a penny well invested is a dollar down the line.

We have nothing to fear, but fear itself. And spiders and werewolves....

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great post! :D

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Originally Posted by swedishviking

if hard work is fighting hordes of mobs to just get the mats, then i dont see the problem as the instances require you to fight the mobs to get the resources and finish the instance. so there is no difference...

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Precisely what I was thinking. All this means in terms of gathering mats is we don't have to fight each other for them, and it has gotten pretty bad for ore on Arkenstone.

EDIT: I will be eagerly waiting to try these out tomorrow after Bullroarer comes back up. Going to be my first thing, then I'll do Lorien.

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Originally Posted by ArtphulDodger

So my question still stands- will scholars ever get a random flake, shard etc. or foresters get a bonus to their harvesting (instead of kindling.. ugh) prospectors getting random flakes ftw! .. just like to see the love spread.

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That question is beyond the scope of this piece of content (instances) and beyond my realm of design roles (content/world). I can ask Game Systems if they have plans - but they are the department best suited to answer that question (as well as questions regarding recipes and functionality of crafting itself). World/Content just make sure the components get delivered. :)

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Originally Posted by swedishviking

did i ask you to apologize? no, i did not so dont put words in my mouth

define hard work...

if hard work is time spent, then not everyone has the same amount of time as some people do. not everyone is goin' to go around for 3 hours to find mats.

if hard work is fighting hordes of mobs to just get the mats, then i dont see the problem as the instances require you to fight the mobs to get the resources and finish the instance. so there is no difference...

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I didn't say you demanded an apology, what I meant was I have my views and will not back down simply over a 4-word post that offers nothing by way of an arguement.

Hard work is time spent. If you do not have 3 hours to farm materials, that's when you ask friends, kinmates, trade channels, or buy them from the AH. Why should I work and spend time getting my mats while you take them as a free bonus? They're ever-increasingly catering to casual, and indeed somewhat selfish players. If you don't have time to do everything, why have the game changed to hurt me? You get what you put in. If you put in more time, it should actually matter and be representational of what you are able to do, and acquire. If mats prices are so god-forbiddenly high on your server, then gather them and make a fortune. Think like an entrepreneur, and don't look for free handouts. Now do I fault some players for the love-in this is getting - no, as from their perspective they're getting more for less work. How can you not love free stuff right? Well, it's not going to really contribute as much as you think towards crafting, and is going to water-out the market, not to mention those in-game who might be called a 'merchant' class. I farm my own mats and buy low, then use them or sell for a higher amount. Supply and demand. Fixing crafting would be a hand-up, but this is an unnecessary hand-out.

I think thats part of your problem right there Aurora, you view what your doing as "work" saying "Why should I work and spend time getting my mats while you take them as a free bonus?" Were not interested in having to play this game as another job. You feel differently. And to each their own, but I am looking forward to these and any future ones they add for lower level tiers.

Two things:

One, I like the idea a lot. I think they're a great idea and I would welcome them at lower tiers as well... something very similar reached from Rivendell, Esteldin, and/or Bree.

Two, I'd like to see it available for a fellowship. I.E., you can take a fellow in, but it's the same rewards as if you went in solo. I duo with my wife (an almost pure healer minstrel) most of the time. Fighting instances are nearly impossible for her. At level 60, with part of her radiance gear, she's unable to complete the Steel Library (and not for lack of trying). I don't see that it would break anything, or become an EZ-Mode, if fellows were allowed in. I think the same would apply to the IA instances and probably even to the Library/School. I don't see how limiting the number makes it either more fun or more rewarding... and in the case of solo-intent instances it can completely leave some people out.

JS

Great job scenerio. I love this i am glad it is being put into the system.

Don't let the complainer bother you some people are never happy with anything.

For the instances i would hope that you can get at least a stack of ore out of them which is about 30 mins of farming. I have a scholar, jeweler, and tailor that these are going to be great for.

I see very few ore nodes around landroval. they are few and far between even if i was to run the loads they are still scarce.

My exporer who is my tailor ran the MM and had 2 stacks of black ash in no time. that was just gathering as i went along in questing.

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should I work and spend time getting my mats while you take them as a free bonus?

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Where do you see that it is free? It isn't free it will cost something to get into the instance more than likely then you have to kill the mobs and the boss before you can harvest anything. the boss more than likely being a signature like the rest of them have been.

With 3 locks in that is x amount of mobs and 3 signatures to kill. is that what you do when gathering? it isn't a free bonus there is work at least an hour of work depending on your play style.

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They're ever-increasingly catering to casual, and indeed somewhat selfish players. If you don't have time to do everything, why have the game changed to hurt me?

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Really? adding in working instances hurts you? please stop with the emotional arguements they fail big time. This isn't catering to anyone. You play on a low populated server congrats to you. Some of us play on populated servers where resources in the uppers levels are scarce and few and far between.

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If mats prices are so god-forbiddenly high on your server, then gather them and make a fortune. Think like an entrepreneur, and don't look for free handouts.

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Please show me where they are free?

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Now do I fault some players for the love-in this is getting - no, as from their perspective they're getting more for less work. How can you not love free stuff right? Well, it's not going to really contribute as much as you think towards crafting, and is going to water-out the market, not to mention those in-game who might be called a 'merchant' class. I farm my own mats and buy low, then use them or sell for a higher amount. Supply and demand. Fixing crafting would be a hand-up, but this is an unnecessary hand-out.

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Do you ever use any logic when you type stuff? it appears that you don't or you are confused and just wanting to troll at this point.

1. Really have you run the instances yet? do you know how much ore is in each phase? Do you know how many mobs plus a boss fight are there? more so the nodes are random spawns. if there are 10 nodes per area that is a max of 30 ore not including rich ore if found. at 30-40 min that is 1 ore node per min. some classes might take longer. That is not unreasonable as i can get 3 or 5 tier 5 nodes in less than 1 min.

2. you have yet to show how it is free. it is going to take time and work to get these done. there are other costs involved i am sure of it.

3. It has been specifically setup as not to water down the market as you can only run them once every 3 days. there are only 2 mining and 2 wood gathering quests. so no there will be no watering down.

4. No it isn't out of hand there are issues on the more populated servers with t6 resources. when a stack of K-iron ore is going for 2 gold that is out of reach for some people. Again you have yet to prove this is a hand out. The only way you could say this was a hand out is if there were no mobs no bosses and you recieved 2 stacks of ore every time you ran it.

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Originally Posted by Ryvick

I think thats part of your problem right there Aurora, you view what your doing as "work" saying "Why should I work and spend time getting my mats while you take them as a free bonus?" Were not interested in having to play this game as another job. You feel differently. And to each their own, but I am looking forward to these and any future ones they add for lower level tiers.

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Call it work, call it play, it doesn't matter. It takes effort and focus. Can we not get hung-up on words and address the issue? I'm not interested in this as a job either, I just like to have fun and be rewarded for my investment. So naturally I would feel miffed if someone who's also playing, but logging less time and putting less/no effort into something, then gets stuff for free that I would otherwise need to set aside time to do. It's further reducing the quality of the game by catering to those who have less time to invest but expect and want the same quality of gear that those who invest a lot more into the game. This is certainly convenient for said players. This much is undeniable. There's plenty of resources to be had, and I frankly doubt the claims of resource droughts, at any level. It's a matter of motivation, time, will, and wherewithal.

Can we have 1st Age mini-instances too? I really don't like doing Watcher runs, it takes too much time to do, and I just don't like having to find large groups. People keep taking them before I can, and it's not fair.

Well I don't know what to say to your doubts about node droughts, all I can tell you is I'm experiencing them. And basing your argument off of your doubting whether or not others are having issues on another server is, I respectfully submit, poor logic. Is there something I'm missing or do you have a better solution in the case that people are having trouble getting materials?

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Originally Posted by TheOneRinger

Well I don't know what to say to your doubts about node droughts, all I can tell you is I'm experiencing them. And basing your argument off of your doubting whether or not others are having issues on another server is, I respectfully submit, poor logic. Is there something I'm missing or do you have a better solution in the case that people are having trouble getting materials?

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You have to realize is that he is on a lower populated server hence the direction of turbine for new players to log onto those servers. He doesn't have to deal with the populations size of say a brandywine or landroval server or in your case arkenstone.

he theory is very much subjective to his server.

His claims on it not being work and being handed to us is complete bunk. There is more risk going into the instance than running the main world. IE if you leave the instance all nodes are gone whether you farmed 1 of them or none of them. I can see why they did this and it is a good idea.

Also unless you are mining in the foundations there is very few places that you run into signature mobs or have to fight them on a consistant basis like these instances.

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Originally Posted by finafarn

His claims on it not being work and being handed to us is complete bunk.

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Haha, I wasn't going to put it quite that way, but well yeah... :D

And hey Ryv just noticed you posted here not everyday I see someone from BK post lol

i suggest updating the existing solo instances in DV with equivalent or almost equal
token rewards so as not to obsolete them
That way those truely wish to get crafting nodes can use the new ones while those
hunting for the gold leaves can still use the old ones

also helps to reduce the lag with everyone in one spot

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Originally Posted by finafarn

Don't let the complainer bother you some people are never happy with anything.

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Yes, because there's only 1 dissenting person who doesn't see this as angel good cake from the hands of Galadriel herself. I absolutely love these forums because the second you post anything contrary to the cheerleader squad, you get marginalized at best. I'm probably the same person who kills your grandma's flower garden with a chainsaw and who clubs baby seals as I go to sleep, eh? To the contrary, I'm happy with a lot of things, or I wouldn't play this game. I'm not only here for some of the company I run into, trust me ;) .. but it's community, and so you can disagree on things without going overboard.

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For the instances i would hope that you can get at least a stack of ore out of them which is about 30 mins of farming. I have a scholar, jeweler, and tailor that these are going to be great for.

I see very few ore nodes around landroval. they are few and far between even if i was to run the loads they are still scarce.

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Again, as I've stated many times. I play on Vilya. I don't play on your server. If ore nodes are such a big issue on your server, you think it'd be something heralded by a lot more than one "complainer" - such as it may be it's a server issue that can be dealt with by server ore respawns. You don't need a global wrench to kill a local monkey. Sorry to the monkey fans out there.

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My exporer who is my tailor ran the MM and had 2 stacks of black ash in no time. that was just gathering as i went along in questing.

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Cool, I thought they're only proposing Ore and Scholar mats here, or did I miss something in between studying for finals and browsing? Wood isn't usually an issue anyways, so it's a mute point.

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Where do you see that it is free? It isn't free it will cost something to get into the instance more than likely then you have to kill the mobs and the boss before you can harvest anything. the boss more than likely being a signature like the rest of them have been.

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You're running an instance, something you would otherwise, only now there are resources that only you can collect or be given as a reward. Unless you count 3 seconds of gathering, it's free and exclusively yours. Sans competition.

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Really? adding in working instances hurts you? please stop with the emotional arguements they fail big time. This isn't catering to anyone. You play on a low populated server congrats to you. Some of us play on populated servers where resources in the uppers levels are scarce and few and far between.

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Congrats, you play on a big server, it comes with it's inherent issues. That is your situation and something you should have considered. How's that my fault?

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Do you ever use any logic when you type stuff? it appears that you don't or you are confused and just wanting to troll at this point.

1. Really have you run the instances yet? do you know how much ore is in each phase? Do you know how many mobs plus a boss fight are there? more so the nodes are random spawns. if there are 10 nodes per area that is a max of 30 ore not including rich ore if found. at 30-40 min that is 1 ore node per min. some classes might take longer. That is not unreasonable as i can get 3 or 5 tier 5 nodes in less than 1 min.

2. you have yet to show how it is free. it is going to take time and work to get these done. there are other costs involved i am sure of it.

3. It has been specifically setup as not to water down the market as you can only run them once every 3 days. there are only 2 mining and 2 wood gathering quests. so no there will be no watering down.

4. No it isn't out of hand there are issues on the more populated servers with t6 resources. when a stack of K-iron ore is going for 2 gold that is out of reach for some people. Again you have yet to prove this is a hand out. The only way you could say this was a hand out is if there were no mobs no bosses and you recieved 2 stacks of ore every time you ran it.

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Oh yes, I always come here to troll. That's why I take time to reply to something. I couldn't possibly think of anything better to do. I'm afraid you caught me. I really did think my life purpose was just to drive the bageebies out of people online. Thanks for noticing, I feel much better now :)

1. No, I haven't. Have you? Nope.
2. Already covered.
3. More nodes = more ore. Judging by the feedback, all nodes on your server will still be farmed out, plus there's now instances. More ore. No large world exploration and node hunting needed. Now 100% more compressed and 15% more fiber :D
4. K-Iron for 2G per stack. I haven't enjoyed prices like that since the first month of Moria. I made a killing. Why? Because I supplied the market. If it's out of reach, but needed, you'll do what people always do - you go gather it. Did we really need a Dev to spend 4 weeks on this?

Please tell me what the core issue these instances were created to address.

Market prices? Work and build up a piggy bank. I didn't need a swath of gameplay set aside for myself to make it, and I dare say many others on every other server are the same way.
Availability? Add more nodes.
Gathering tedium? Improve consignments. Don't reinvent the wheel.
Respawn rate? Bump it up. They did this after Moria's launch. Turbine has all the stats one could dream of, so they could ?easily? tweak it for certain servers if it's a genuine issue.

I welcome these instances!! I play on higher populated servers because i rarely get to play "US primetime" so that i can find groups. Even during the 'off / dead ' times the crafting mats can be very hard to get.

Even using consignment NPCs it took much longer to tier up my jeweler and (especially) my scholar than it took most others. My metalsmith and weaponsmith are still trudging along.

We will still be going against mobs and have quests but it will be more fun gathering what we need. I don't see this as replacing non instance gathering (for me at least). But rather as a welcome break from the tedium of so many failed gathering trips.

As to the post concerning duoing, my minstrel would like this too. At least on the harder ones. But i doubt this will happen. Increased instance lag with all the extra players in it at once is probably the main reason. My minstrel don't like being left out, she'll give it a go anyway. :D

Quite a few minstrels have yet to complete the Library of Steel. The option of redoing our traits and playing a style we are not used to playing would not be worth it. (to me) But we keep trying all the same :D

Maybe there will be a way to address the problems that will arise on lower population servers. Time will tell all. Once this comes out, give it some time and evaluate, then post a 'constructive' thread voicing concerns. :)

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I absolutely love these forums because the second you post anything contrary to the cheerleader squad, you get marginalized at best.

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Out of that whole paragraph this is the only thing half way worth responding to. No you only get marginalized when you post the false claims that you do. More so with the outlandish claims that because your server isn't like that then none of the others are.

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such as it may be it's a server issue that can be dealt with by server ore respawns

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you don't get it what they do to one is done to all of them. if they up anything it isn't per server it is server wide. it affects all the servers not just one.

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You're running an instance, something you would otherwise, only now there are resources that only you can collect or be given as a reward. Unless you count 3 seconds of gathering, it's free and exclusively yours. Sans competition.

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You obviously do not know the meaning of the word free. Free is something without charge. that requires no payment of any kind. Not only are people going to have to pay to get into the instance they also have several objectives they have to complete before they can even mine.

so no it isn't free.

as for no competition it is no different than being in an area where no one else is around.

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That is your situation and something you should have considered. How's that my fault?

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You like putting words in peoples mouths don't you? no one said it was your fault. yet you are ranting because your low populated server really doesn't need it. larger servers would welcome this. i find certain crafting professions to be very tedious more so the metal ones. mostly due to fighting and rarity of ore.

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1. No, I haven't. Have you? Nope.
2. Already covered.
3. More nodes = more ore. Judging by the feedback, all nodes on your server will still be farmed out, plus there's now instances. More ore. No large world exploration and node hunting needed. Now 100% more compressed and 15% more fiber
4. K-Iron for 2G per stack. I haven't enjoyed prices like that since the first month of Moria. I made a killing. Why? Because I supplied the market. If it's out of reach, but needed, you'll do what people always do - you go gather it. Did we really need a Dev to spend 4 weeks on this?

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1. I am not the one complaining about it you are.
2. You were proved wrong it isn't free it costs time money and items to get in just like the other private instances.
3. Which is limited on 3 day lock outs which means 2 runs per week with an unknown amount of ore to be had. if you get a stack of ore i think you will be lucky.
4. No you don't enjoy prices because supply is greater than the demand. on landroval and other larger servers demand is higher than supply. mostly because of the low node counts.

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Market prices? Work and build up a piggy bank. I didn't need a swath of gameplay set aside for myself to make it, and I dare say many others on every other server are the same way.
Availability? Add more nodes.
Gathering tedium? Improve consignments. Don't reinvent the wheel.
Respawn rate? Bump it up. They did this after Moria's launch. Turbine has all the stats one could dream of, so they could ?easily? tweak it for certain servers if it's a genuine issue.

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Why should i have to grind mobs till i am blue in the face to buy ore at 2g per stack? that means the system is broken.
the consignment point has already been addressed it is boring and not very interactive. this is interactive and people will run them. they aren't reinventing the wheel they are introducing a new mechanic which i feel is going to be very popular.

again respawn rates, more nodes etc... affect all the servers it isn't a pick and choose kind of deal.

more competition is never a bad thing and this is going to introduce some of that. It won't hurt the economy it will help move it along.

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Originally Posted by BerenTelcontar

Two, I'd like to see it available for a fellowship. I.E., you can take a fellow in, but it's the same rewards as if you went in solo. I duo with my wife (an almost pure healer minstrel) most of the time. Fighting instances are nearly impossible for her.

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I totally agree. My main is a healy minstrel and I don't last long fighting solo. I really wish these instances would allow bringing a fellow along.

Wow, very nice description of what you do and detail with a down to earth flavor that kept us reading to see what you were putting into the game for us. Very good writing, thank you for the information!

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Originally Posted by ArcticAurora

Yes, because there's only 1 dissenting person who doesn't see this as angel good cake from the hands of Galadriel herself. I absolutely love these forums because the second you post anything contrary to the cheerleader squad, you get marginalized at best. I'm probably the same person who kills your grandma's flower garden with a chainsaw and who clubs baby seals as I go to sleep, eh? To the contrary, I'm happy with a lot of things, or I wouldn't play this game. I'm not only here for some of the company I run into, trust me ;) .. but it's community, and so you can disagree on things without going overboard.



Again, as I've stated many times. I play on Vilya. I don't play on your server. If ore nodes are such a big issue on your server, you think it'd be something heralded by a lot more than one "complainer" - such as it may be it's a server issue that can be dealt with by server ore respawns. You don't need a global wrench to kill a local monkey. Sorry to the monkey fans out there.



Cool, I thought they're only proposing Ore and Scholar mats here, or did I miss something in between studying for finals and browsing? Wood isn't usually an issue anyways, so it's a mute point.



You're running an instance, something you would otherwise, only now there are resources that only you can collect or be given as a reward. Unless you count 3 seconds of gathering, it's free and exclusively yours. Sans competition.



Congrats, you play on a big server, it comes with it's inherent issues. That is your situation and something you should have considered. How's that my fault?



Oh yes, I always come here to troll. That's why I take time to reply to something. I couldn't possibly think of anything better to do. I'm afraid you caught me. I really did think my life purpose was just to drive the bageebies out of people online. Thanks for noticing, I feel much better now :)

1. No, I haven't. Have you? Nope.
2. Already covered.
3. More nodes = more ore. Judging by the feedback, all nodes on your server will still be farmed out, plus there's now instances. More ore. No large world exploration and node hunting needed. Now 100% more compressed and 15% more fiber :D
4. K-Iron for 2G per stack. I haven't enjoyed prices like that since the first month of Moria. I made a killing. Why? Because I supplied the market. If it's out of reach, but needed, you'll do what people always do - you go gather it. Did we really need a Dev to spend 4 weeks on this?

Please tell me what the core issue these instances were created to address.

Market prices? Work and build up a piggy bank. I didn't need a swath of gameplay set aside for myself to make it, and I dare say many others on every other server are the same way.
Availability? Add more nodes.
Gathering tedium? Improve consignments. Don't reinvent the wheel.
Respawn rate? Bump it up. They did this after Moria's launch. Turbine has all the stats one could dream of, so they could ?easily? tweak it for certain servers if it's a genuine issue.

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I dont get how you see this as dumbing down anything. You have little competition, we have much more. You dont need it, we want it. You will see little impact on your server aparantly,as you said there is plenty of nodes for you. We will see a decent impact, we hope, and share the SAME experience you have.

So, given those points, which is all the points I have seen made, relevant to what you are against(correct me if I am wrong), what is the issue with this coming to be?

Arctic, none of your solutions work for me thanks. And on Arkenstone K-ore can easily get above 2g, so are you saying you haven't enjoyed selling at that price (because it's now lower) or that you haven't enjoyed buying at that price (because it's now higher)? I have some cash, but I don't want to blow it on something that should be easier to get when there are plenty of other things I need to buy that should be rare.

Even if they add more nodes it is likely they will still be farmed to death, but with these instances it creates for all of us an environment something like what you seem to be experiencing on Vilya.

This also opens up the higher tiers of the crafting system to new higherlevels working on tier 6. They're not going to know where all of the nodes are and the ones they do see they will be scooped up by people who have gotten to them first. This way they can try these instances and do the thing they're most familiar with: fighting mobs killing bosses and getting nodes on the way, without having to hunt for them and then often find someone else has just harvested it.

I'm sorry Scenario couldn't also make you new content just for Vilya, since Vilya doesn't seem to have any problem with crafting and nodes. For some reason he doesn't seem to have infinite time. But keep in mind that the larger servers have more people and so control the majority. Turbine can't make content that the majority needs and then make more content for the minority who likes to complain they don't need the new content. Again, basing your arguments off your doubts of other people and servers' problems just doesn't work. And your only solutions seem to be people play more and Turbine "fix" a system not many know about, fewer know how to use it, and even fewer like to use it, myself among those who know how to use it but really really don't want to.

EDIT: To respond to those who are having issues with their minstrels soloing. It will get easier in Book 7 to both heal and DPS, and if you just slot Herald's Hammer and the Piercing Cry trait (I forget what it is) that is usually enough to solo pretty well... Also just get a decent DPS LI and I find it pretty easy. I can solo better on my minstrel than my hunter anyway.

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Originally Posted by Scenario

It could also be argued that the consignment orders are not entirely successful because their mechanic is not a particularly engaging one and that players/crafters might better appreciate actually collecting the resources themselves as opposed to waiting out a timer.

It should also be noted that while the core of these instances are meant to appeal to crafters (or at the very least resource harvesters) that the instances have rewards that are worthwhile beyond just crafting. And as always - more content is better than less, correct?

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Also it drops very small amounts of loots for very expensive prices. A stack of ancient Iron is 350s on E, how many 20-40s chests do you need to get a 50stack.

Why everything is still so much focused on Item Advancement and deeds? A lot of people by now are 60, some care about deeds others don't. But I know for sure that 99% of those people have houses, kinship halls and possibly are parts of the kinships. I've read through the article and its great that work is being done and Book 7 is being intensively worked on.

But may I remind you that we need more "cosmetic" rewards at this point than weapons, armors etc. You devs and designers did a great job by providing player base with immense variety of equipment that is available at this point. Variety is the most important in every MMO and we have it now. We have abundance of equipment to be honest and still the main goal for players will always be the best and the greatest.

I'd rather see something new I can put in my house/kinship hall, wear or clip to my belt to a kinship event. Some social content, new trophies that everyone is asking so much about. Now with Eriador and Moria content LOTRO has quite so much of content to play through. I say devs need to focus more on social content now. Balance equipment stats to make crafting enjoyable and actually necessary again, finally remove this annoying hook system from our communities so we can make our houses and kinship halls cousy and unique.

I feel great gratitude and respect for Turbine, devs that work on new content and show us the actual work and plans. With huge Moria success through I think that its time to address some issues that many players talk about in suggestions. Crafting instances are probably needed, will be fun for newer players that didn't do much in crafting yet, for farmers maybe that sell resources on AH, not so much for majority of player base that did their playthrough already with Moria and wait for something more to get in and have fun with. I personally am not very big ALT fan, and usually focus only on my main guardian whenever new content is available, but still would like to see something being worked on for high level players that will but in my beg something more than just a stack of hides for doing a quest in instance.

I hope rewards in Book 7 quests will make it worth to log in and not gonna be something like "Oh, I already have 100 of these", or "What am I gonna do with this weapon if I have my nice Legendary of second age?", or "Another 6 rewards that I end up to chose the most expensive just to sell?" ... Please make rewards that are worth spending time to do the quest. Rewards that we can actually USE and not sell for 15s to the first vendor we see...

While I am a big fan of thread de-railment, I am going to comment on the original subject.


I can't help but feel a little concerned about what this will do to the economy. I know you mentioned it but I already have way too much mats that won't sell on the AH for any price. If you allow more supply, the demand, which there already is a problem with, will tank even more.

I hope all of this is steps to making crafting more viable. One thing I liked with LOTRO compared to other games is how effective crafted items were. I can only think of one other game where crafting had a HUGE impact to game play and was actually required for making end game items, not as a filler until X dropped from X Raid.

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Originally Posted by TheOneRinger

Arctic, none of your solutions work for me thanks. And on Arkenstone K-ore can easily get above 2g, so are you saying you haven't enjoyed selling at that price (because it's now lower) or that you haven't enjoyed buying at that price (because it's now higher)? I have some cash, but I don't want to blow it on something that should be easier to get when there are plenty of other things I need to buy that should be rare.

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If you don't wish to spend cash, or collect them personally because you'd rather do other things with your time, why should that not affect your gameplay? The choices you make determine what you do and what you get. If crafting is a priority to you, you will do what it takes. I see this somewhat as a lack of self-initiative simply because every node out there isn't earmarked with your (not you personally, it's a generic player reference) name.

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This also opens up the higher tiers of the crafting system to new higherlevels working on tier 6. They're not going to know where all of the nodes are and the ones they do see they will be scooped up by people who have gotten to them first. This way they can try these instances and do the thing they're most familiar with: fighting mobs killing bosses and getting nodes on the way, without having to hunt for them and then often find someone else has just harvested it.

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Indeed, I suppose it would be excessively hard to look in the Prospector forums or ask in Advice where ore X spawns. It would even be unusual and cruel punishment for people to explore an area, even though it would help them in terms of questing, and make for a better game experience, etc. I've had nodes ninja'd on me, but it's not a big deal, nor should it be.

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I'm sorry Scenario couldn't also make you new content just for Vilya, since Vilya doesn't seem to have any problem with crafting and nodes. For some reason he doesn't seem to have infinite time. But keep in mind that the larger servers have more people and so control the majority. Turbine can't make content that the majority needs and then make more content for the minority who likes to complain they don't need the new content. Again, basing your arguments off your doubts of other people and servers' problems just doesn't work. And your only solutions seem to be people play more and Turbine "fix" a system not many know about, fewer know how to use it, and even fewer like to use it, myself among those who know how to use it but really really don't want to.

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... because I was demanding new content for Vilya? Um.. what? I'm not asking for special content. This instance implementation was done to give crafting resources to those who would have difficulty getting it, due to rampant Explorer issues (No one's so far said anything about Scholar nodes being hard-to-get. Are they in bigger servers? That stuff drops off mobs too).

...


Okay, let's simplify this and reset. Above this ^ is dead to me. Back to basics.

Crafters want resources without worry of having them ninja'd or having node availability issues on larger servers. No argument right?

There already is a limited-supply crafting supply system. Consignments. Improve them. All Scenario had to do was bump up the timer, increase the cost to a fair minimum, increase the consignment return order and you've solved the issue.

Why do people think every interaction with an NPC must be the experience of a lifetime? Just drop him in some known and accessible town, heck make it 21st Hall, and you're telling me that people wouldn't go because it's not engaging? It would take 10 seconds of your time, at most, to que up what you'd like. Delivered tomorrow (heck, maybe even sooner), with whatever cooldown that Scenario is proposing and you can go do whatever you'd do otherwise without having to worry about gathering any ore at all :)

Please tell me there's something wrong with the above. Slight over-simplifications? Likely. 4 weeks worth? I'm not sure, but I'd guess it'd be less considering the work put into these new instances. Time better spent that achieves the same end-goal.

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Originally Posted by ArcticAurora

Please tell me there's something wrong with the above. Slight over-simplifications? Likely. 4 weeks worth? I'm not sure, but I'd guess it'd be less considering the work put into these new instances. Time better spent that achieves the same end-goal.

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While your suggestions are valid and may achieve your end goals - that does not mean they achieve our end goals.

The goals for these instances, while intended to be a boon to crafters, reach beyond crafting to touch on providing more solo-able instance experiences (IA instances have proven there is a ravenous audience for this), synergize with deeds to help make under-supported kill tasks more achievable (not everyone has completed their deeds, and re-rolls/alts always have the deed concern) and for me to learn how the instance and quest system work (so that I can, in the future, develop even more compelling experiences as I have time to do so).

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Originally Posted by Scenario

reach beyond crafting to touch on providing more solo-able instance experiences (IA instances have proven there is a ravenous audience for this)

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This says it all, for me. I like soloing and duoing. I can enjoy larger groups (I raid fairly seriously in another game), but if I'm popping on for a little bit, and want something to do? Here's my list:

1. Must be quick
2. Must be soloable (I raid elsewhere, and enjoy outdoor group content too, don't get me wrong--this is my brief log on list.)
3. Must be fun (the IA instances I've done to date have been more fun than killing random stuff, as they take a bit more thought.)
4. Should be progress (Putzing around can be fun, but getting to advance my character too is even better.)
5. Should have some reward (The economy in this game is fairly harsh compared to most. Getting economic value out of my time is a big bonus.)

Well, looks like everything I want out of a quick logon is covered by this list. Consignment covers... the first two. I won't count #5, as I'm not being rewarded, I'm paying, and I won't really count #4, as I'm trading financial progress for crafting progress. Too close to zero sum.

Count me in for crafting instances, please.

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Originally Posted by Locklear93

5. Should have some reward (The economy in this game is fairly harsh compared to most. Getting economic value out of my time is a big bonus.)

... I won't count #5, as I'm not being rewarded, I'm paying, and I won't really count #4, as I'm trading financial progress for crafting progress. Too close to zero sum.

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Something way too many people are overlooking in this thread: Three Iron-Garrison Tokens can be traded for one Lothlórien token. Once you gather up 30 of them or so, you can trade it for a rep horse or for a Second Age weapon. If that's not economic value, I don't know what is. I forsee many, many more people running the instances for the tokens daily than for the crafting value twice a week.

As my good friend Casandir would say.... "Nicely done"

I am truly looking forward to seeing these "crafting instances" for lack of a better word and the though of being able to duo through them makes it sound all the better. Playing through them as a pair adds a nice chance to rp through them with some risk involved as well.

Nice touch with the thought possess THAT made me get hooked on this.

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Originally Posted by captjax1

I am truly looking forward to seeing these "crafting instances" for lack of a better word and the though of being able to duo through them makes it sound all the better. Playing through them as a pair adds a nice chance to rp through them with some risk involved as well.

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Unfortunately, these are solo instances and you won't be able to bring a friend with you into them. It is an interesting suggestion but something that spaces aren't designed for nor is there available time to include consideration for such a change.

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Originally Posted by Scenario

Unfortunately, these are solo instances and you won't be able to bring a friend with you into them. It is an interesting suggestion but something that spaces aren't designed for nor is there available time to include consideration for such a change.

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This makes me kinda sad. I'll try the instances out on Bullroarer but as a full healy minstrel it appears I only have 2 choices. Skip the instances (because I likely can't survive them; or at least the level 60 instances), or retrait daily and end up losing more money than I'd make doing the instance. I'll give it a try anyways.

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Originally Posted by Scenario

Vastin's goals were a good deal more focused than mine - I wanted as much variability in the monsters themselves where as his instances are meant to be much shorter, less variable and more focused. I also have very little experience with the quest system so for my part it was best to start small while learning and then try something more ambitious in the future.

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I wish you'd taken more pages from Vastin's diary :( The adamant IXP instances, for example, are a really good example of challenging, repeatable content. The use of a simple timed-mob-respawn mechanic that leads to failure if not kept in check creates tension, while the instance spaces in themselves are a major part in the strategy to beat the instance. Running the Library of Steel can be fun, every single day.

The crafting instances on the other hand incorporate none of those principles to make it fun or challenging. Unfortunately, they are quite dull and boring :( Definitely not gripping content that I would want to repeat on a regular basis.


1. I don't think the goal of having variability due to random mob types was achieved at all. This is because there are 6 instances that are sooo similar to each other that it would have been better off giving each instance its own mob type to give them some sort of distinct identity. As things stand you essentially have 6 almost identical instances with (identically) random chances of a mob spawn type.

2. Running around large maps for crafting nodes has always been a tedious and boring process. The crafting instances reduce some of the tedium by bunching nodes close together but do nothing to reduce the boredom, as the instances themselves are nothing different from what you would encounter in the open map. No scripted behavior, no tricky pathing, nothing.

3. Making collecting nodes a rewarding experience based on challenge would have been a new and relatively easy thing to add. Why not little, fun things like, after killing the boss you also have a chest with say, 30 resources items, which is a challenge to get to? (A simple way, already used in some LotRO instances, would be to have some sort of trap that you have to avoid).

4. I realize that the instances are primarily for gathering resources, so I can see myself being thankful that they exist when I'm running out of resources. But as T6 crafting stands now, I'm sure most people will be running these for the tokens alone. Was there nothing that could have been done to make the instances even slightly more interesting at all?


Of course, this is all my opinion, but I really don't think many people are going to come out and say that the crafting instances are an example of fun, challenging or innovative content.

Especially not after experiencing the IXP instances.

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Originally Posted by Scenario

Unfortunately, these are solo instances and you won't be able to bring a friend with you into them. It is an interesting suggestion but something that spaces aren't designed for nor is there available time to include consideration for such a change.

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I do wish you'd consider changing that in a future update. If the rewards remain the same as they would be for one person, I don't see a problem with two people running it, and both getting the locks while only one set of rewards (i.e. same amount of ore, token, whatever) as if it were only one person. The same could be true of the other IA instances...

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Originally Posted by archrr

..... I'm sure most people will be running these for the tokens alone......

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Tokens? Some reward in there most (ie, me) are not aware of?

Hope there is an increase in beasts that drop hides. Tailors are unloved in moria, with relatively few mobs that drop hides. Hopefully Lothlorien will have something to compensate for that if there are no crafting instances for hides.

Matt, well done. I said that a few pages back on this thread based on simply reading about these instances. Today I'm saying it based on the hours of fun I had yesterday actually running them.

I really love em! Realistically soloable even in quest gear, with locks that make them "bited-sized". I can do a bit, take a break and come back later to finish. And the rewards are very appealing... Iron Garrison rep, tradeskilling mats, and tokens. I think the tokens will keep a lot of folks coming back daily (including me, hehe), and the side-effect will be to make tradeskilling mats more plentiful server-wide.

For those who haven't looked at these yet: each instance has 3 daily quests, each of which rewards a tradeskill token. Tradeskill tokens can be bartered for a more tradeskill mats, IXP runes (!), or exchanged for Lothlorien barter tokens (which can be bartered for jewelry, etc., I'm told).

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Originally Posted by asudo

Hope there is an increase in beasts that drop hides. Tailors are unloved in moria, with relatively few mobs that drop hides. Hopefully Lothlorien will have something to compensate for that if there are no crafting instances for hides.

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There's probably some luck involved as to whether you get cave claws as the mob type, but I got a lot of hides yesterday.

I ran 4 instances (both scholar + both woodworker), and got the following:

- only a couple scholar bits as drops (I went in as Explorer so couldn't harvest any)
- 60 Magnificent hides
- 70 Ilex wood
- 45 Mallorn wood

I definitely could have gotten more hides if I'd killed all of the beasties in the instances. (I only killed a few more than the minimum required by the quests.)

Shame about the rare monster option getting cut. Hopefully we'll see that kind of thing in the future. It would be lots of fun to run one of these things all the time and once in a while come across a named flake dropper that's a real challenge to beat solo.

Part II is an interesting read as well.

btw ... 4 weeks ... does this mean that after 4 weeks like everything was completed? Including quests, rewards, instances, mob placing, etc.

After those four weeks the whole stuff was playable or was there further work needed.

And how many world designers worked on the instance space?

Thanks for this dev diary, Scenario ... really interesting!

Liked part two a lot. Short, but sweet. I've not gotten to try these yet, but they sound fun to me.

I really wish that the jackpot rare monster idea made the cut. Any chance of that being added to some other variation on this in the future? Sounds neat.

I too would like to see the instance rare monsters someday.

I am not quite clear on the mechanics, though. For those that have run them, can you help me with the following scenario:

My L55 (or whatever level he will need to be to succeed) Lore-master Historian wants to get some T6 metals for my L41 Tinker so she can make T6 items. If I do the Prospector instance, most of the ore is still found in ore nodes, just like the regular world? But at the end I get something I could barter for ore (or other things)? How will my total ore take from the instance stack up to the Valuable Ore consignment? How much flexibility will I have in picking the tier of ore I receive?


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Originally Posted by BerenTelcontar

I do wish you'd consider changing that in a future update. If the rewards remain the same as they would be for one person, I don't see a problem with two people running it, and both getting the locks while only one set of rewards (i.e. same amount of ore, token, whatever) as if it were only one person. The same could be true of the other IA instances...

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I second this motion. When I read about things being "solo", I usually interpret that to mean "soloable", which I like, versus requiring a full fellowship to handle. But, actually, 99% of my play time is spent in one of the duos I am currently playing with friends. We almost never play truly solo, and being forced to leave our fellowship to do these instances alone would mean that we will probably never do them or at best will view them as a necessary evil to gather all the crafting materials we need.

I don't expect the instances to be tailored to duos, but I would very much like to be able to enter and play in them with my friends. As BerenTelcontar mentioned, you could let the rewards stay the same. This would actually reduce the potential amount of crafting materials, etc. coming out of the instances every week, so I don't see any balancing problem in that respect. And, if a reduced challenge level due to playing the instances with more characters than it was designed for is acceptable to those players doing it that way, I don't see any harm in that, either. Unless, of course, the difficulty of these instances is intended to be a limiting factor in their completion, but I don't get that impression since they were originally conceived as "crafting" instances.

Thanks for your consideration.

This is just a thought (And it probably wasn't possible in the short time frame you worked through the instances+quests+loot+etc) but since each time you enter the instances for the first time you get a random type of monster, perhaps you could have placed a quest npc INSIDE the instance at the entrance that was decided on by the same rng as the mobs and gave specific quests. This could be similar to how the book instances work in that you have a quest giver at the beginning and then they show up at the end before leaving. I suppose the quests would have to be tied to the first locks as well so that when those locks reset the quests are removed or perhaps given a clock countdown tied to the daily reset timer.

Once again just a thought but it might allow you more diverse and unique quests to these and future rng instances.

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Originally Posted by Joe-Phi

btw ... 4 weeks ... does this mean that after 4 weeks like everything was completed? Including quests, rewards, instances, mob placing, etc.

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4 weeks includes everything except for bug fixing - there were bugs but they were not plentiful. :)

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And how many world designers worked on the instance space?

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I was the only designer who built the spaces - from start to finish. Everyone else was busy working on Lothlorien, Epic Book and other World Design tasks.

Scenario, will it ever be possible to have solo instances that are on the scale of BG and maybe URU in length?