Level 65 2nd age Songbook

So I finally got the symbol and had a buddy make me a 65 2nd age songbook. I was very excited to see how it turned out. Well to save the pain it SUCKED. It is now level 35 and I didnt get bolster courage OR H&M. The book is totally useless. After about 70+ SG runs and finally winning the symbol the book didnt get either of the most important legacies a song book needs. I compared my 3rd ager to the 2nd ager and the heals are almost 200 morale lower on the 2nd ager with no H&M and no Bolster courage. I am just confused how turbine makes us grind out the symbol and then gives us junk. For that much effort I would think you would get at least 1 if not both of the most important healing legacies in the game. Instead my book is now going to be a relic maker. Pretty sad after all that hard work.

I made a weapon for one of our Champs and he got everything you could possibly hope for on that weapon, our RK got hosed and deconned at 41, our Guard had a similar experience. If the symbol dropped more frequently i twould not be such a big deal but with that drop rate it would be nice to get what you need/want in some fashion. I haven't even rolled on it yet, waiting for the dps to get what they need, i'm sure I'll be crying my blues soon enough.

I feel for you. I've got the symbol twice and twice now I have deconned my book at 30. There just is no incentive to work countless hours(in a game meant for entertainment) at getting a low percentage symbol with a high percentage of legacy failure as a result.

People in my kin are happy to roll on the Symbol in SG but really reluctant to use DKP in BG because of the lottery crapshoot. I suppose a DPS class might justify it, but it's really risky for support classes.

I am glad (well not glad) to hear I am the only fool here that got bent. I totally agree, countless hours and runs to finally get the symbol with a high rate of legacy failure. The sad part is the 2nd age book isn't even close to my 3rd age book with no bolster and H&M. I think level 31 there will be a decon coming up.

If I ever come across a symbol I'd sell it before I'd waste it on this lottery of a legacy system we have.

The ONLY one I'd consider making a LI for would be my champ and even then I'd still seriously consider selling the emblem.

My kin had a priority list for SA and which classes received them first. DPS was on the top, and casters at the bottom. When it came time for me to receive mine, I asked instead to take it on my alt hunter rather than my minstrel. From what I have read the heals aren`t that significantly different between SA and TA books - and you really are taking a risk on what legacies will end up on the LI.

When I do get to raid on my hunter I feel my bow, though it did not get any crit legacies, is a better choice than the book since so many fights are now a DPS race.

Sorry to hear about your book. I dislike what Turbine has done to the LI system.

My 2nd age 65 songbook got H&M but not Bolster (although it did get other useful legacies that I like), but my 3rd age 65 got everything I wanted and outheals the 2nd Age. *sigh*

I wouldn't waste another symbol on a book, and next time, I'll just make another sword or a bow for my hunter.

Then again, I don't really run SG anymore. I am mostly resigned to make due with what I have rather than go through the disappointment across all my characters.

I don't mind the drop rate so much, as it's supposed to be "rare" - although it's not so much rare as it is more readily available to people who play too much. I do mind the absolute pile of ^&%# we were fed about our "weapons growing along with you" when they don't.

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Originally Posted by atimes

If I ever come across a symbol I'd sell it before I'd waste it on this lottery of a legacy system we have.

The ONLY one I'd consider making a LI for would be my champ and even then I'd still seriously consider selling the emblem.

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I would agree with you but I have a very good amount of gold so then the question is how much gold do you really need before enough is enough...So my gold would go from a lot to a lot more.... to me that is no fun... Now if I only had 5 gold I would sell it in a hearbeat, but I am sitting good for gold.

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Originally Posted by Gillianrial

My 2nd age 65 songbook got H&M but not Bolster (although it did get other useful legacies that I like), but my 3rd age 65 got everything I wanted and outheals the 2nd Age. *sigh*

I wouldn't waste another symbol on a book, and next time, I'll just make another sword or a bow for my hunter.

Then again, I don't really run SG anymore. I am mostly resigned to make due with what I have rather than go through the disappointment across all my characters.

I don't mind the drop rate so much, as it's supposed to be "rare" - although it's not so much rare as it is more readily available to people who play too much. I do mind the absolute pile of ^&%# we were fed about our "weapons growing along with you" when they don't.

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I agree, the only way a 2nd age songbook would be worth it to me would be if I got BOTH bolster and H&M..

That really sucks. I like that the symbol is rare, but being subject to the LI lottery is just bad design, imo. I finally got a symbol and rolling a songbook never even crossed my mind - minstrels have too many "required" legacies and the chance of getting all of them, or even most of them, is just too small. I rolled a weapon instead, because you can usually end up with either a pretty decent healing or dps item. In the end I got Piercing Cry, Call of the second age targets, Call of Orome, Call to war -resistance, and Cry of the Valar -resistance so not too bad. The 6th legacy was useless for this weapon's purpose (Rally CD) so I replaced it with vitality.

Not bad overall. Problem was very low tiers. Still working on that one... I hate skirmishing so I'm just buying scrolls if I find any not totally outrageously priced.

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Originally Posted by 1580123

Not bad overall. Problem was very low tiers.

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I rarely see anything Tier 4 or above in the +60 items. I can't help but think this is intentional.

I, too, am disappointed in both the book and the sword I made myself. The book, at least, has potential, as it has every healing legacy, but I can't use it because it does not have Ballad of War. The sword was just a complete waste of time and materials. I agree... the LI system is really disappointing me. It's wearing down my enjoyment of the game, too.

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Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan

I, too, am disappointed in both the book and the sword I made myself. The book, at least, has potential, as it has every healing legacy, but I can't use it because it does not have Ballad of War. The sword was just a complete waste of time and materials. I agree... the LI system is really disappointing me. It's wearing down my enjoyment of the game, too.

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LOL, Nar... you could do what I did and switch to an off-hand every time you hit ballad of war >< I couldn't for the life of me get a second age with H&M, Bolster, & BoW in the Moria days so I finally resorted to an off-hand. At least when I was in the ranged group or didn't have much melee in my group I could breathe a little easier. :D

I've won two symbols so far - one from now-countless SG runs, and one from BG. The legendary I got from the SG win was absolutely worthless, and a pretty big disappointment. The BG one is moderately useful, but still doesn't have everything I want so I'm still finding myself flipping through 2 or 3 different legendaries in battles to get everything I want.

It kind of does make them seem truly *legendary* when you do get everything you want on a single legendary, eh? ;) I've seen some really nice ones since Mirkwood that have made me gawk and pine - maybe the rarity is the intention.

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Originally Posted by KristTsirk

I rarely see anything Tier 4 or above in the +60 items. I can't help but think this is intentional.

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It's intentional: meant as a trade-off for the existence of empowerment scrolls. Very annoying if like me you find skirmishes super-dull, but there it is.

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Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Then again, I don't really run SG anymore. I am mostly resigned to make due with what I have rather than go through the disappointment across all my characters.

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I also don't run SG anymore. I know some kins can run it fast but it still took us around an hour to run, and I have all of my armor and jewelery for BG (which I haven't ever been invited to, and our kin is too small to run it solo), so there is just no point in running it. I don't really care much about anything in PvE to warrant trying for better stuff. I mostly play PvMP now and my 3rd agers are fine for it.

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Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan

I, too, am disappointed in both the book and the sword I made myself. The book, at least, has potential, as it has every healing legacy, but I can't use it because it does not have Ballad of War. The sword was just a complete waste of time and materials. I agree... the LI system is really disappointing me. It's wearing down my enjoyment of the game, too.

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Lol Nar, just macro, baby, macro. I leveled a lvl 60 2nd age and it got all three buff legacies on it- the fire and fear ratings go higher on that then a lvl 65 3rd age too. I just have a macro button to switch in the buff book for my 3 buffs, so I'm still only hitting one button like I would normally to run the ballad.

My lvl 65 3rd age book is basically perfect, 10% H&M, BC, IF and 4% Healing Costs. It even has BoW on it but I chose not to put any points into it and pour them all into the healing legacies. The chance of getting a 2nd age as good or better? Not even worth crafting the book. That said... I haven't won a symbol yet, but I've basically been passing on every one until recently when my champ got to 65 and can use a 2nd age weapon.

My 65 songbook has no healing legacies on it at all, and I love it. I have maxed out ballad of war and reduce power cost mainly, along with fate and vitality.
Just felt like something different and I find its awesome, especially for soloing in warrior skald - can blast through those skirmishes too.

When I have finished levelling up my weapons, I will probably look around and get one with healing legacies for raiding, but I can raid on this no problem at the moment - just cleared out DN last weekend with my kin, was great because I never had power problems.

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Originally Posted by 1580123

It's intentional: meant as a trade-off for the existence of empowerment scrolls.

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So to balance the benefit of having empowerment scrolls, they made it so that we are required to have empowerment scrolls.

Is Turbine run by the government?

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Originally Posted by Zaggles

LOL, Nar... you could do what I did and switch to an off-hand every time you hit ballad of war >< I couldn't for the life of me get a second age with H&M, Bolster, & BoW in the Moria days so I finally resorted to an off-hand. At least when I was in the ranged group or didn't have much melee in my group I could breathe a little easier. :D

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Craziness. I'm too lazy to do that.

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Originally Posted by Anamatronix

Lol Nar, just macro, baby, macro. I leveled a lvl 60 2nd age and it got all three buff legacies on it- the fire and fear ratings go higher on that then a lvl 65 3rd age too. I just have a macro button to switch in the buff book for my 3 buffs, so I'm still only hitting one button like I would normally to run the ballad.

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I have no idea how to macro stuff... and I still don't know if I would, anyway. The thought of grinding MORE relics so that both books are tricked out is not appealing.

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Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan

I have no idea how to macro stuff... and I still don't know if I would, anyway. The thought of grinding MORE relics so that both books are tricked out is not appealing.

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Crazy girl, no need for relics. Just have to get the book to lvl 60, you'll have more then enough points to max out just the ballad buffs, and it's only in momentarily so it won't affect your stats with no relics. Trust me! ;)

Amat are you able to switch to your off-book, do all your buffs, and then switch back to your healing book all in one button click? :confused:
I tried to orchestrate this, and could get as far as switching to a book and executing ballad of war, but I could never get it to switch back to my healing book in the same sequence. My macro skills are nubbish, seems like it should be able to be done but I haven't figured it out yet.
I resorted to just assigning a key on my keypad to each legendary and I'm switching between legendaries using my keypad as I'm clicking through skills on my mouse.

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Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan

I, too, am disappointed in both the book and the sword I made myself. The book, at least, has potential, as it has every healing legacy, but I can't use it because it does not have Ballad of War. The sword was just a complete waste of time and materials. I agree... the LI system is really disappointing me. It's wearing down my enjoyment of the game, too.

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Ballad of war is actually a NO NO for me as a legacy on my primary book. It is a waste of a legacy imho. What i do is I have a 2nd songbook with the Ballad of war, the fire resistance and the fear resistance (all the tier 3 ballads) and what I do is I tier up to ballad 3 using my primary healing book and then I quick switch out my books with my mouse thumb button, play my tier 3 ballads, and then quick switch back using my mouse button back to my healing book. I would never spend any legacy points BoW when I prefer putting them all in my healing legacies. This set up has worked great. I get all 10% H&M, bolster, power costs, chord salvation cooldown -10 and raise the spirit and then I get the +500 fear and fire resist and 20% melee on my other book. Dont waste legacy points on BoW IMHO. Quick swap books at teir 3 ballads.

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Originally Posted by danazc

I would agree with you but I have a very good amount of gold so then the question is how much gold do you really need before enough is enough...So my gold would go from a lot to a lot more.... to me that is no fun... Now if I only had 5 gold I would sell it in a hearbeat, but I am sitting good for gold.

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Well then shucks man, send some of your cash my way :D

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Originally Posted by KristTsirk

So to balance the benefit of having empowerment scrolls, they made it so that we are required to have empowerment scrolls.
. . .

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That about sums it up. . .

I understand why people have made BoW a top legacy. My idea of what great book would be is H&M, BC, IF, and -power. BoW is great for speeding up fights, and as we all know, there are plenty of DPS race fights. From my experience though, any fight that is exceptionally hard, you're a heal bot, no time to tier up. A fight where you have time, you're just making an easy fight, easier. In other words, you tiering up to BoW only AFTER you have caught up in healing, therefore, healing is always trumping BoW.

Healing legacies are the way to handle the hardest fights in this game. BoW is away to make moderate/easy content easier.

I've gotten 2 symbols out of SG and spent them both on Champ weapons - both of which have sucked. I am not about to waste one on a Minnie book or a Captain emblem until there is a higher certainty that I will get symbol in the first place and it doesn't feel like I'm wasting 100g every time I ID.

If it makes you feel better (it won't), my kin leader got a 2nd age songbook with both H&M legs, BoW, and BC (I think RtS too, for what it's worth). Best songbook I've seen in the game so far, and she only heals BC for a few more points than Gilriam can hit on his 3rd age book.

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Originally Posted by doug01

I understand why people have made BoW a top legacy. My idea of what great book would be is H&M, BC, IF, and -power. BoW is great for speeding up fights, and as we all know, there are plenty of DPS race fights. From my experience though, any fight that is exceptionally hard, you're a heal bot, no time to tier up. A fight where you have time, you're just making an easy fight, easier. In other words, you tiering up to BoW only AFTER you have caught up in healing, therefore, healing is always trumping BoW.

Healing legacies are the way to handle the hardest fights in this game. BoW is away to make moderate/easy content easier.

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I think it very much depends on the make up of the group and playstyle.

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Originally Posted by KristTsirk

So to balance the benefit of having empowerment scrolls, they made it so that we are required to have empowerment scrolls.

Is Turbine run by the government?

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No, but this goes right along with them nerfing our SKILLS because of possible LI LEGACIES...f-ing re****ed. But I'm not bitter.

Have a great day all!

.02:D

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Originally Posted by Shmoopie

I think it very much depends on the make up of the group and playstyle.

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Maybe, but I have never tiered up to BoW when people are dieing. I'm tiering up BoW when the the group is stable. But, I do understand not every minstrel may do that. I can only speak for myself and what Ive seen, but fights that are exceptionally hard (Durchest, twins, and the LTp2) the mini are struggling to just keep everyone up, BoW is a completely useless legacy. If the fight isn't so hard, then BoW is icing on the cake.

All the DPS in the world is useless if the group is dead. :)

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Originally Posted by doug01

I understand why people have made BoW a top legacy. My idea of what great book would be is H&M, BC, IF, and -power. BoW is great for speeding up fights, and as we all know, there are plenty of DPS race fights. From my experience though, any fight that is exceptionally hard, you're a heal bot, no time to tier up. A fight where you have time, you're just making an easy fight, easier. In other words, you tiering up to BoW only AFTER you have caught up in healing, therefore, healing is always trumping BoW.

Healing legacies are the way to handle the hardest fights in this game. BoW is away to make moderate/easy content easier.

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20% more melee dps means that the fight ends much quicker, especially if you have a lot of melee classes (admittedly, if the guard is the only melee in the group, it's probably not worth it, but your champ will thank you tremendously).

If the fight is ending quicker, it means there's less total damage for you to heal through, which is important. If you're doing Gorothul with a burg, a capt, and a minnie with 20% BoW, you're doing 40% more damage to him, which means he dies 40% quicker and you have probably 80% fewer skeletons (since time is a big factor there).

It's possible to tier-up quickly, btw, without having to use your lengthy-induction songs. Though it is best to keep vitality and evade buffs up if you can handle it, even if you can't, you can simply fire off some tier 1 and tier 2 ballads and fire off BoW. Furthermore, your Anthem of Compassion (which you can turn into Ballad of compassion fairly easily) can and should be up all the time. I have a 1 minute cooldown on Compassion, and with my yellow traits have it lasting for 50s, so I have -45% healing threat for 50 out of every 60 seconds of combat. I can also quickly fire off my +1500 ICMR skill quickly if I'm keeping my tiers up, which will allow me to keep everyone up easier. Last, but not least, with enough traits in the blue line, your tiers give you +5% buffs. When I hit a heal after I hit BoW, I've got +15% total healing to it. A BC that normally hits for 1800 max now maxes out at 2070.

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Originally Posted by Reillan

20% more melee dps means that the fight ends much quicker, especially if you have a lot of melee classes (admittedly, if the guard is the only melee in the group, it's probably not worth it, but your champ will thank you tremendously).

If the fight is ending quicker, it means there's less total damage for you to heal through, which is important. If you're doing Gorothul with a burg, a capt, and a minnie with 20% BoW, you're doing 40% more damage to him, which means he dies 40% quicker and you have probably 80% fewer skeletons (since time is a big factor there).

It's possible to tier-up quickly, btw, without having to use your lengthy-induction songs. Though it is best to keep vitality and evade buffs up if you can handle it, even if you can't, you can simply fire off some tier 1 and tier 2 ballads and fire off BoW. Furthermore, your Anthem of Compassion (which you can turn into Ballad of compassion fairly easily) can and should be up all the time. I have a 1 minute cooldown on Compassion, and with my yellow traits have it lasting for 50s, so I have -45% healing threat for 50 out of every 60 seconds of combat. I can also quickly fire off my +1500 ICMR skill quickly if I'm keeping my tiers up, which will allow me to keep everyone up easier. Last, but not least, with enough traits in the blue line, your tiers give you +5% buffs. When I hit a heal after I hit BoW, I've got +15% total healing to it. A BC that normally hits for 1800 max now maxes out at 2070.

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Its 10% MORE dps from the Legacy ;)

And Gorothul has been healed by cappys. Its not a difficult fight, unlike the fights I noted.

Heres an almost sure win to Gorothul, makes the fight easy mode for any group with a main healer and Cappy. On Phase 2 (after he does his fear emote), have the cappy just spam WoC on the main healer, less than 2 minutes later fights over no kitng, no bubble, no FH, no FD, ez-mode. :)

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Originally Posted by doug01

I understand why people have made BoW a top legacy. My idea of what great book would be is H&M, BC, IF, and -power. BoW is great for speeding up fights, and as we all know, there are plenty of DPS race fights. From my experience though, any fight that is exceptionally hard, you're a heal bot, no time to tier up. A fight where you have time, you're just making an easy fight, easier. In other words, you tiering up to BoW only AFTER you have caught up in healing, therefore, healing is always trumping BoW.

Healing legacies are the way to handle the hardest fights in this game. BoW is away to make moderate/easy content easier.

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I totally agree here. I do BoW if and only if time permits... I don't make it a priority, but if I have time to tier up, I will totally include the 20% melee damage. I also try to tier up as often as I can to get the anthem of people for the 1545 ICMR.

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Originally Posted by Zaggles

Amat are you able to switch to your off-book, do all your buffs, and then switch back to your healing book all in one button click? :confused:
I tried to orchestrate this, and could get as far as switching to a book and executing ballad of war, but I could never get it to switch back to my healing book in the same sequence. My macro skills are nubbish, seems like it should be able to be done but I haven't figured it out yet.
I resorted to just assigning a key on my keypad to each legendary and I'm switching between legendaries using my keypad as I'm clicking through skills on my mouse.

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Kind of, I have 3 macro buttons for each t3 ballad, which hit buff book -> ballad-> heal book. It's only one buff at a time still. I use a logitech keyboard, so I can assign one of my G buttons to act like I've hit the buttons on my hotbars. It's the keyboard, not the game macros. Also, as a side note, mine has the little LCD display on the keyboard so I can keep track of who's talking in vent and stuff :p Invaluable, seeing as all you americans sounds the same ;)

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Originally Posted by doug01

Maybe, but I have never tiered up to BoW when people are dieing. I'm tiering up BoW when the the group is stable. But, I do understand not every minstrel may do that. I can only speak for myself and what Ive seen, but fights that are exceptionally hard (Durchest, twins, and the LTp2) the mini are struggling to just keep everyone up, BoW is a completely useless legacy. If the fight isn't so hard, then BoW is icing on the cake.

All the DPS in the world is useless if the group is dead. :)

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Agree x10. BoW is definitely not something I have any time to use when healing gets strained in BG during boss fights.

I agree with you guys for the most part, but lucky for me I have not had this problem myself.

I have only won 1 symbol, and it got 4 legacies to start with, and by level 30 it had EVERY SINGLE healing legacy.

So if you get lucky, the symbol is definitely nice to get, it's just a matter of luck like anything in the legendary system.

I also have to agree that Ballad of War is a huge waste of points on a healing book, especially in BG where you are just as likely to have only 1 melee class in your whole fellowship benefiting from the buff. Just level up a separate Ballad of War book and swap it in for times when you are melee-heavy and/or actually have time to keep BoW up. It is easy enough to keep up BoW by swapping in a separate book for it, especially if you have traited for the 45 second ballads. Turbine obviously is OK with this strategy, many classes do it, especially captains with separate buffing legendaries...

I have a Lv60 2A sword, crafted by a kinsman, that really turned out quite well. Has some good legacies, and the ones that I didn't like so much have been covered up with +will and +fate (and I think I have a +Vit on either my sword or book).

While running HoC, a 2A Songbook, level 60-something dropped. It looked promising, so I brought it up to ~lv30 just using stones, and It's pretty excellent. I ran the quest from DV to get the +5% to all light damage skills, and it works well for me.

But I have to agree that this is a ridiculous lottery they have. I'd probably sell the symbol before I used it to craft.

Symbols are not worth the effort, the LI Lottery nullifies any hope that your work will be rewarded. I got a couple of Symbols and managed to get a decent (not great) Bow for my Hunter, the first two 2nd Agers were Relic Fodder. You're much better off grinding Scrolls of Empowerment and leveling up your 3rd Age Book then you are spending time Symbol/LI farming.

On a slight derail, for all those that are saying they only run Ballad of War when they have time to tier it up, do you not run Anthem of the Free People all the time?

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Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Agree x10. BoW is definitely not something I have any time to use when healing gets strained in BG during boss fights.

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I'm able to keep BoW up during boss fights, and generally vitality and evade, too :D

I used to not be able to, until a much better minstrel than I will ever be taught me a better way...

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Originally Posted by Mark_J

On a slight derail, for all those that are saying they only run Ballad of War when they have time to tier it up, do you not run Anthem of the Free People all the time?

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At end game, I slot Smooth Voice, so I use AotFP every time possible. I'm just being realistic that if things get crazy, I don't sometimes have time. There are times I do, but if we're light on healing (because we need to take more range for example *sigh*), then yes, sometimes there's little I can do at the end of challenge mode fights other than spam heal.

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Originally Posted by Reillan

I'm able to keep BoW up during boss fights, and generally vitality and evade, too :D

I used to not be able to, until a much better minstrel than I will ever be taught me a better way...

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Share? Again, when I can, I'm using all my buffs - including fire, fear, and BoW. But, it's not always possible for me in pinches.

Finally got a symbol. Crafted book -- doesn't suck, but not legendary either.

Has --

+ Bolster Courage
+ Inspire Fellows
- Healing Power Cost
3 stat legacies added to replace ones I don't use (I only heal on this alt)

Does not have --

+ H&M bonus


Without H&M it looks like BC will be a little lower than my 3rd age, IF a bit higher, and the healing power savings is nice. I guess it's an improvement but not the "wow" that should have come after spending so much time in SG.

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Originally Posted by Mark_J

On a slight derail, for all those that are saying they only run Ballad of War when they have time to tier it up, do you not run Anthem of the Free People all the time?

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AotFP give about 750 moral (IIRC) over thirty seconds, One IF beats it, so for healing puposes sololy AotFP isn't worth the time since IF is faster to execute.

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Originally Posted by Reillan

I used to not be able to, until a much better minstrel than I will ever be taught me a better way...

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No insult intended. From looking at both of your lotro pages I can't tell if you ever healed in the the end game raid (singlular). If you have, you've managed to exceeded the healing output of the some of the best raiding minstrels in the game. There are several threads lately especailly, on how the best raiding kinship in the game are not being able to beat the boss fights in BG. Why? Becuase the damage being dealt to the group/individuals just can't be healed by a typical raid set-up.

IF you haven't healed for hardmode runs in BG, then again no insult, you have not idea what your saying. If your using Gorothul, Watcher, or DN as your standard for a Boss fight, you're in for a rude awaking in BG.

Put simply...when the fights get tough, you're a heal bot, your dont have 3-4 seconds to tier up. Tier up=people dead, people dieing = group wipe

For any minstrels in the game who plans on healing for the hardest content in the game, healing/power legacies are going to be the most usefull. If your experience puts you in 6-mans or lv60 raids then BoW might have more benifits over some healing legacies.

BoW is very situationally useful in BG. It is a mistake to count it out or to think that there isn't time tiering up for boss fights.

Some obvious situations where the BoW legacy is effective:
1. The gauntlet and the other adds to speed things up. Yes, I understand they aren't the boss fights but they are the most annoying part of the zone and anything that moves the group through this timesuck aspect of the zone faster is a good thing.

2. The first 3/4 of Durchest's fight. Healing is easy at the start of the fight, during the first 5 adds, and through the push to get Durchest down before you start working on the last adds. At the end, healing gets harder but it's manageable and situations at the end where hitting fellow's or TS give you a multiple-second cushion is exactly the time to use BoW.

Many of the kins who are having problems with that fight are the kins who were kiting him before the changes. If you weren't kiting him (like us), then it's pretty much the same fight.

3. The Twins - Since the fight favors range dps so much, it's unlikely both groups will have enough melees to make BoW worthwhile. However, if you are the minstrel grouped with the melees fighting the fire boss, BoW is great. That fight is all about speed, the faster it's done, the more likely you are to win HM. Not using BoW there is a mistake imo. And like Durchest, healing in that fight is easy for the first half, it's not until the puddles and dread start that it starts to get hectic.

4. The first phase of the LT fight. There should be little to no healing in this phase. We keep one mins in WS and the other set to heal "just in case" someone gets sloppy and gets hit. I'm usually the "just in case" mins and then I am definitely doing things like tiering up ballads/bow to get power back and to help get through that phase as quickly as possible, along with song of aid to open up skills and CTG when its up. If you are a mins in the LT fight and not using BoW during the first phase, then I wonder what you are doing that you think is more productive during that phase.

So much of BG is a time suck that it's a mistake to discount BoW as a skill. BoW is one of the few reasons to prefer a minstrel over an RK healer in that zone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

So much of BG is a time suck that it's a mistake to discount BoW as a skill. BoW is one of the few reasons to prefer a minstrel over an RK healer in that zone.

---

Yes of course. But that's not what anyone here is saying.

BoW is easy to keep up in the Gauntlet...and easy to keep up during at least 1/2 of Durchest HM (although not as useful imo, because we have limited people up with him), but at the END of Durchest HM or Twins HM, I cannot imagine having time to play my evade/vitality buffs and then tier. I'm spam healing - and using cooldowns...I wish I had time to do something else, so maybe I just suck - but with only 2 healers and 2 captains, yeah, I'm spam healing and that's it at the end of those fights HM.

BoW during the Durchest fight isn't so much for killing Durchest as it is getting his adds down as quickly as possible.

Of course healing is more intensive at the end of HM fights rather than at the beginning, but to focus solely on those as a reason for why BoW isn't that useful, I think, misses the mark. In DPS races, particularly twins HM and LT, there are phases where minstrels don't have to heal much and they should absolutely be doing whatever they can to get the targets dead asap. If these fights drag on too long, it really doesn't matter how great your spam healing is later, the chances are you're going to wipe.

I've healed every boss fight in BG with a book without BC and one with the BoW legacy. It's not preventing us from beating these bosses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

BoW during the Durchest fight isn't so much for killing Durchest as it is getting his adds down as quickly as possible.

Of course healing is more intensive at the end of HM fights rather than at the beginning, but to focus solely on those as a reason for why BoW isn't that useful, I think, misses the mark. In DPS races, particularly twins HM and LT, there are phases where minstrels don't have to heal much and they should absolutely be doing whatever they can to get the targets dead asap. If these fights drag on too long, it really doesn't matter how great your spam healing is later, the chances are you're going to wipe.

I've healed every boss fight in BG with a book without BC and one with the BoW legacy. It's not preventing us from beating these bosses.

---

Again, that's not what I am saying and of course BoW is important if you read my posts at all. But, if you're telling me that at the END of Twins HM that you're still tiering to BoW and having no problem healing, then OK, you're either an inherently better minstrel - or you run with more than 2 main healers. That is my point...keeping BoW and other buffs CONSISTENTLY up without CoTC when you're at larger dread levels, are spam healing the tanks, and group healing the splash from the puddles/fears, then wow, I'm impressed because sorry, those are tough fights to heal at the tail end in my opinion :)

So please, don't misunderstand what I am saying.

My original post wasn't a response to you and is not dependent upon anything you posted. I don't believe I am misunderstanding what you typed but your responses have been consistently defensive with your suggestions that you 'suck' sarcastically. Maybe you should chill out.

But I'll clarify so you don't keep misunderstanding me. My first post was a response to this claim: "fights that are exceptionally hard (Durchest, twins, and the LTp2) the mini are struggling to just keep everyone up, BoW is a completely useless legacy." That is a comment that you apparently agreed "10x" with. As my first post pointed out, there are plenty of instances within the three boss fights where BoW is useful and not at all a "completely useless legacy."

And yes, at the end of our twins HM win Thursday night, everyone was full health, no one was close to dying, puddle placement was pristine, I hit fellow's for insurance only and I did tier up BoW (Cry of Chorus + BOW ) and then nuked to try to get the kill (sadly didn't), so it can and does happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fortinobrand

Finally got a symbol. Crafted book -- doesn't suck, but not legendary either.

Has --

+ Bolster Courage
+ Inspire Fellows
- Healing Power Cost
3 stat legacies added to replace ones I don't use (I only heal on this alt)

Does not have --

+ H&M bonus


Without H&M it looks like BC will be a little lower than my 3rd age, IF a bit higher, and the healing power savings is nice. I guess it's an improvement but not the "wow" that should have come after spending so much time in SG.

---

That is exactly what my 2nd age book looked like. It had every single healing legacy with the exception of the H&M. Well my 3rd age was healing for more since it does have H&M, so I decon'd my 2nd ager. A songbook without H&M is Useless IMHO. H&M increase ALL heals so it is 1 legacy you can't go without.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

My original post wasn't a response to you and is not dependent upon anything you posted. I don't believe I am misunderstanding what you typed but your responses have been consistently defensive with your suggestions that you 'suck' sarcastically. Maybe you should chill out.

But I'll clarify so you don't keep misunderstanding me. My first post was a response to this claim: "fights that are exceptionally hard (Durchest, twins, and the LTp2) the mini are struggling to just keep everyone up, BoW is a completely useless legacy." That is a comment that you apparently agreed "10x" with. As my first post pointed out, there are plenty of instances within the three boss fights where BoW is useful and not at all a "completely useless legacy."

And yes, at the end of our twins HM win Thursday night, everyone was full health, no one was close to dying, puddle placement was pristine, I hit fellow's for insurance only and I did tier up BoW (Cry of Chorus + BOW ) and then nuked to try to get the kill (sadly didn't), so it can and does happen.

---

I guess "completely useless" was a bad phrase to use, "not much use" would have been more accurate. The extra 10% DPS over a few seconds going to have some impact. What I should have said, is in the hardest fights in the game, the impact healing legacies have is going to be greater than the 10% extra DPS for 20 seconds applied sporadically, at best, is going to have. Even by your own admission you're finding a few second to maybe tier up once or twice in the crucial parts of boss fights, and you're burning CDs to do it. IMO, it's just not worth the effort. I completely agree, BoW will make trash mobs, medium/easier content go faster, IE It's nice to have after you have stabilized the group, after you have done the healing needed, after you have taken advantage of healing legacies. So, IMO, BoW is something the comes after healing (and legacy-wise, after healing legacies). If the boss fights in BG became more melee DPS oriented, then BoW might become more relevant, but that just not the case.

My book for everything except BG is: H&M, BC, BoW, ballad resist

My book for BG: H&M, BC, RS, -Power cost (wanted IF, but no luck)

Outside of the hardest fights, BoW has uses, but when the going gets rough, BoW takes a back seat. In the end, what separates a good minstrel from a bad one is not how good they do when things are easy, its how good they do when things aren't easy.

Imagine telling your raid leader "Well, I just couldn't keep the tank up, but I did mange to keep BoW going.." Id imagine the response would be along the lines of "Heal you noob, I don't want 10% extra DPS for a few seconds, I want people alive" :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

Even by your own admission you're finding a few second to maybe tier up once or twice in the crucial parts of boss fights, and you're burning CDs to do it. IMO, it's just not worth the effort.

---

I don't consider substantial parts of Durchest, the Twins and the LT to be non-crucial parts of those fights. Both phase 1 LT and Twins are dps races from start to end and it's a bad call to not use BoW during them. What are you doing in phase 1 of the LT fight if not using BoW/CTG/Song of Aid/WS?

Last night in the LT we were consistently getting 3 puddles (almost 2) in phase 1 despite taking several melee dps classes. I grouped the champs/burg with me and kept 20% BoW up and it made a huge difference in phase 1 time. That directly impacts good positioning in phase 2 and enables us to fight the LT without stacking ranged classes.

And using ballads during phase 2 of the LT is vital. If you're just heal-botting during phase 2, you're going to run out of power. The room is a great size in that one can hit Morskor just about anywhere with ballads to get the power buff. Ballads are far more power efficient to use than something like piercing cry, which costs more power, AND they contribute to heals + give the BoW option.

I think you're assuming that folks who use BoW are just tiering up and not healing. That couldn't be further from the case. Heal, Ballad 1, heal if needed, ballad 2, heal if needed, heal again if needed, BoW, heal, rinse and repeat as needed to keep ballads tiered and heal people. Space out the ballads, get and refresh the power buff from Morskor, heal between as needed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

Imagine telling your raid leader "Well, I just couldn't keep the tank up, but I did mange to keep BoW going.." Id imagine the response would be along the lines of "Heal you noob, I don't want 10% extra DPS for a few seconds, I want people alive" :)

---

I'm speaking as my kin's raid leader and i'm far harder on myself than anyone else would be. The extra hundred fifty or so morale from a BC legacy isn't going to save anyone the vast majority of the time and since i'm constantly tiering up between heals, I'm healing about as well as someone with a maxed BC leg (10% v. 9%). And BC isn't the spell that is going to save people; Chord or RtS or TS or Gift (if things are really bad) are more likely to "save" someone than BC anyway.

And as a raid leader, if I see that a mins is trying to only be a healbot in tough fights, I talk to them, b/c that's far from what a good minstrel should be doing during these fights. Just b/c other people who don't know the class want to pigeonhole us into healing-botting doesn't mean that is the right or best way to play the class.

My book is HnM, RtS, BoW, IF, -power cost and +Will. Works well. People don't die b/c I don't have a BC leg.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danazc

That is exactly what my 2nd age book looked like. It had every single healing legacy with the exception of the H&M. Well my 3rd age was healing for more since it does have H&M, so I decon'd my 2nd ager. A songbook without H&M is Useless IMHO. H&M increase ALL heals so it is 1 legacy you can't go without.

---

Agreed -- I'm grinding for another symbol, where would we be without the LI lottery? Meanwhile, crafting for a new 3rd with all the goods.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

I don't consider substantial parts of Durchest, the Twins and the LT to be non-crucial parts of those fights. Both phase 1 LT and Twins are dps races from start to end and it's a bad call to not use BoW during them. What are you doing in phase 1 of the LT fight if not using BoW/CTG/Song of Aid/WS?

Last night in the LT we were consistently getting 3 puddles (almost 2) in phase 1 despite only taking 2 hunters with us and taking more melee classes. I grouped the champs/burg with me and kept 20% BoW up and it made a huge difference in phase 1 time.

---

Durchest isn't a really a DPS race for most of it, and when it becomes one the damage being dealt at that point makes doing anything other then spam healing a liability. The twins, is the same thing. LT, your doing ~10% more damage with BoW legacy vs not having it(or about 35k in P1, assuming ALL of the damage is melee), that translates to, at best, one puddle drop, again assuming ALL melee DPS (<--note).

Twins HM, are you having all your DPS in AoE fire all the time? ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

That directly impacts good positioning in phase 2 and enables us to fight the LT without stacking ranged classes.

---

Are you sending melee DPS in on the LT after the drake is down? Are you burning power tiering up? ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

And using ballads during phase 2 of the LT is vital. If you're just heal-botting during phase 2, you're going to run out of power. The room is a great size in that one can hit Morskor just about anywhere with ballads to get the power buff. Ballads are far more power efficient to use than something like piercing cry, which costs more power, AND they contribute to heals + give the BoW option.


I think you're assuming that folks who use BoW are just tiering up and not healing. That couldn't be further from the case. Heal, Ballad 1, heal if needed, ballad 2, heal if needed, heal again if needed, BoW, heal, rinse and repeat as needed to keep ballads tiered and heal people. Space out the ballads, get and refresh the power buff from Morskor, heal between as needed.

---

I think your assuming that because someone doesn't have the BoW legacy, they don't tier when possible. Not sure who told you that.

What I am saying is that another minstrel doing exactly what you are doing but without BoW legacy will only extend the LT transition time a few seconds at best, not insignificant, but hardly something to write home about either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

I'm speaking as my kin's raid leader and i'm far harder on myself than anyone else would be. The extra hundred fifty or so morale from a BC legacy isn't going to save anyone the vast majority of the time and since i'm constantly tiering up between heals, I'm healing about as well as someone with a maxed BC leg (10% v. 9%). And BC isn't the spell that is going to save people; Chord or RtS or Gift (if things are really bad) are more likely to "save" someone than BC anyway.

---

150/BC + the extra 300-500/crit = 3-4k more healing easily every minute when compared to NOT have the BC legacy for the same power consumption. Powers at a premium. I can pop off at least 2 BC in the time it takes to tier up. Tiering up is NEVER going to make up for lost healing during that time. Not even close. IMO, tier+the associate buffs will not make up for the lost healing if healing is needed.


I have to wonder how much harder your making the other members in you group work to back-up heal. Back-up healing is taking place no matter what, just how much of it is an issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

And as a raid leader, if I see that a mins is trying to only be a healbot in tough fights, I talk to them, b/c that's far from what a good minstrel should be doing during these fights. Just b/c other people who don't know the class want to pigeonhole us into healing-botting doesn't mean that is the right or best way to play the class.

---

Please share your advice here, your tone is condescending. "Put up, or shut up" so to say. At the release of MoM there were several healing parsings test performed that show a huge advantage to healing straight out verses tier up. If your tiering up to improve your healing, your wasting power and time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

My book is HnM, RtS, BoW, IF, -power cost and +Will. Works well. People don't die b/c I don't have a BC leg.

---

I never said you couldn't win without BC, Never. What I did say is that in the end any fight that is challenging, healing legacies that benefites EVERY person I heal will be more useful to the healer than a 10% damage buffs to 5 (2 or 3 most likely) other member's the raid (at best). BoW is a very nice legacy. The way I play, and obviously you don't, is that I only tier up when the group is stable (priority #1). So I try to find the legacies that help me meet priority #1. BoW isn't one of them.

EDIT: Looking at the SS from your website it looks like you typically run with only 3-5 melee class in your entire raid (1-2 actually DPS melee classes). Under that formation, BoW is even less useful; where as the healing legacies are still completely useful. :)

In the end, you prefer a legacy that is situational, temporary, and only affects a few member of your raid vs something that is on all the time, affect the total healing you do, and benefits the entire raid. That's fine, we differ that's all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

Please share your advice here, your tone is condescending. "Put up, or shut up" so to say.

---

My tone hasn't been condescending at all. I'm not the one who suggested that people who like to use BoW don't know the end game raids and are just basing their experience on the Watcher and 6 person instances. Or checking out people's gear on mylotro to see how far they've progressed and then denigrating their raid knowledge. That bit of elitism on the previous page was all you.

Yes, I disagree with you and I know these fights. And in response you suggest that I'm a subpar healer making others backup heal more than they should. It is like you are utterly incapable of disagreement without insult and the construction of strawperson arguments. Maybe that's how you boost your post count but I post rarely and did so only this time b/c you made ridiculous comments about how BoW is 'useless,' a claim you've since backed off. At least we agree that you were wrong there!

But you can tell how many melees we typically bring to a raid just by looking at a couple of screenshots on our website? That's amazing, you really are all-knowing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

My tone hasn't been condescending at all. I'm not the one who suggested that people who like to use BoW don't know the end game raids and are just basing their experience on the Watcher and 6 person instances. Or checking out people's gear on mylotro to see how far they've progressed and then denigrating their raid knowledge. That bit of elitism on the previous page was all you.

---

Wow, First that peticular response was not directed at you super-hero. Second, nice way to NOT address anything I noted. Nice job!

If anything I used to back up my OPINION is wrong, please say so. Otherwise I'm done with you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Corienne

Yes, I disagree with you and I know these fights. And in response you suggest that I'm a subpar healer making others backup heal more than they should.

---

Suggestion or question?

I'd say you have an issue with your ability, not by what I said, but by your defensiveness to my statement, your emotional response, and a complete absence of relevant information. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Corienne

It is like you are utterly incapable of disagreement without insult and the construction of strawperson arguments.

---

Wow, if this isn't the "pot calling the kettle black".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Corienne

Maybe that's how you boost your post count but I post rarely and did so only this time b/c you made ridiculous comments about how BoW is 'useless,' a claim you've since backed off. At least we agree that you were wrong there!

---

If anything, this does indicate that I do more than just hold to my position regardless of what information is provided. Unlike some, I have the ability to see a point of argument different then mine, see the merit in it, and then change my opinion. (FYI: this is not a bad thing)

Stawman, didn't see it, still don't, but hey, I like to use them so oh well. :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

But you can tell how many melees we typically bring to a raid just by looking at a couple of screenshots on our website? That's amazing, you really are all-knowing.

---

I used the information from your kinship website. Your touting of wins bit you in the a**. Its okay, it only hurts for a little bit :)


Just like this post, your post is nothing constructive and is a complete waste of time for both of us. I hope you continue to use BoW to burn down mobs uber fast, and in the mean time I use my additional healing to keep everyone just a bit more topped off.

EDIT: I did notice you elected to not "put up" ;)

Strawperson: An informal fallacy that misrepresents the argument of one's opponent.

Example:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

In the end, you prefer a legacy that is situational, temporary, and only affects a few member of your raid vs something that is on all the time, affect every heal you do, and benefits the entire raid.

---

In effect, you created an illusion of what I'm saying that isn't correct and attack that instead of answering the actual arguments. Like when you try to say I'm being emotional (I'm not) or that I'm touting wins (didn't). It's all an effort to make yourself look argumentatively stronger by weakening me with descriptions that are simply untrue.

Let's Recap: You said BoW was 'useless' in the newer raids and claimed that those who didn't agree with you didn't know the raids. I gave multiple reasons why that claim wasn't true and you conceded. The rest is just your egotistical smoke-screening. I never said BoW legacy is a better legacy than HnM. What I said was that your claim that the BoW legacy is 'useless' is wrong.

But hey, try to prove me wrong. Quote away. Where did I say the BoW legacy is a better legacy than HnM?

I hope that helps you in your education. It is far more constructive than anything in your recent post.

Lavi - with all due respect, if you actually read what others who even mildly disagree with you said, this discussion wouldn't even be happening. NO ONE is saying they don't tier and only "healbot" (how boring would that be?). At least what I was saying was when my raid is low on health - and my example was the end of the Twins, which with still low radiance comparatively( most folks are still at 130-140), is really tough - I am not going to spend time tiering and THEN heal them, I'm just going to heal them :) When most things are going well - like the first 1/2 - 2/3 of that fight, I'm guessing most good minstrels are tiering, provided power is healthy also. Of course BoW, when the only people you have in melee are 3 people on the fire boss, probably isn't a good use of power ;)

Anyway BoW is a must on my everyday book so I agree with you on the usefulness of the skill (and legacy). I just don't have time for it very likely at the end of hard fights. I'm sure it will get easier as people get more radiance.

Cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

Strawperson: An informal fallacy that misrepresents the argument of one's opponent.

Example:
In effect, you created an illusion of what I'm saying that isn't correct and attack that instead of answering the actual arguments. Like when you try to say I'm being emotional (I'm not) or that I'm touting wins (didn't). It's all an effort to make yourself look argumentatively stronger by weakening me with descriptions that are simply untrue.

---

I made several post presenting numbers and percentages to counter your opinon. It is you who as not adressed my fact/numbers. I only noted your emotional response AFTER I was unable to pull any, and I mean any, non-opinion information from you. the "smoke-screen" here is that your last THREE post have nothing of value and are innuendo and detractions from the issue you can no longer defend... And I keep wasting my time telling you so.

You have made several comments about me personally, other than me calling you "super-hero" (I mean, hey, you came to the rescue of the posters I was responding to!), what insults or personal attacks have I made against you? You actually stated I insulted you prior to my "super-hero" comment, please quote, again

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

Let's Recap: You said BoW was 'useless' in the newer raids and claimed that those who didn't agree with you didn't know the raids.

---

When you say "you said" I'm assuming you can quote me, please do so.

Or are you trying to put words to me that I never said to misrepresent my arguement? (Strawman) ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

I gave multiple reasons why that claim wasn't true and you conceded.

---

I admit, I conceded that BoW wasn't "completely useless", I corrected my opinion upon reading your post to "not much use".

My apologies for being able to change my mind in light of a discussion, it won't happen again. No matter what, from now on I’m never going to give credence to any points offered by others, Close minded mentality FTW!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

The rest is just your egotistical smoke-screening. I never said BoW legacy is a better legacy than HnM. What I said was that your claim that the BoW legacy is 'useless' is wrong.

---

If your inferring I said that you said "BoW legacy is a better legacy than HnM", please quote me.

Again, you’re using a strawman tactic that you seem so set against.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Corienne

But hey, try to prove me wrong. Quote away. Where did I say the BoW legacy is a better legacy than HnM?

---

Funny, you're asking me to quote something you never said. Even funnier is I never even inferred you said what you’re asking me to quote. Again, this a strawman tactic, you're attempting to put words to me that I never stated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corienne

I hope that helps you in your education. It is far more constructive than anything in your recent post.

---

I don't think "education" means what you think it means. You need to re-read the first sentence in your post, and learn it :(

For you Corienne:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVdhZwK7cS8


I was tired of my lady, we'd been together too long.
Like a worn-out recording, of a favorite song.
So while she lay there sleeping, I read the paper in bed.
And in the personals column, there was this letter I read:

"If you like Pina Coladas, and getting caught in the rain.
If you're not into yoga, if you have half-a-brain.
If you like making l0ve at midnight, in the dunes of the cape.
I'm the love that you've looked for, write to me, and escape."

I didn't think about my lady, I know that sounds kind of mean.
But me and my old lady, had fallen into the same old dull routine.
So I wrote to the paper, took out a personal ad.
And though I'm nobody's poet, I thought it wasn't half-bad.

"Yes, I like Pina Coladas, and getting caught in the rain.
I'm not much into health food, I am into champagne.
I've got to meet you by tomorrow noon, and cut through all this red tape.
At a bar called O'Malley's, where we'll plan our escape."

So I waited with high hopes, then she walked in the place.
I knew her smile in an instant, I knew the curve of her face.
It was my own lovely lady, and she said, "Oh, it's you."
And we laughed for a moment, and I said, "I never knew"..

"That you liked Pina Coladas, and getting caught in the rain.
And the feel of the ocean, and the taste of champagne.
If you like making l0ve at midnight, in the dunes of the cape.
You're the love that I've looked for, come with me, and escape."

"If you like Pina Coladas, and getting caught in the rain.
If you're not into yoga, if you have half-a-brain.
If you like making l0ve at midnight, in the dunes of the cape.
You're the love that I've looked for, come with me, and escape."

:)

+rep to you for being so devoted...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

No insult intended. From looking at both of your lotro pages I can't tell if you ever healed in the the end game raid (singlular). If you have, you've managed to exceeded the healing output of the some of the best raiding minstrels in the game. There are several threads lately especailly, on how the best raiding kinship in the game are not being able to beat the boss fights in BG. Why? Becuase the damage being dealt to the group/individuals just can't be healed by a typical raid set-up.

IF you haven't healed for hardmode runs in BG, then again no insult, you have not idea what your saying. If your using Gorothul, Watcher, or DN as your standard for a Boss fight, you're in for a rude awaking in BG.

Put simply...when the fights get tough, you're a heal bot, your dont have 3-4 seconds to tier up. Tier up=people dead, people dieing = group wipe

For any minstrels in the game who plans on healing for the hardest content in the game, healing/power legacies are going to be the most usefull. If your experience puts you in 6-mans or lv60 raids then BoW might have more benifits over some healing legacies.

---

I've healed for the first two hard mode fights of BG. Have not even tried the lieutenant yet in easy mode, admittedly, simply because we haven't desired to fight him because we've heard how nasty the fight is. yes, it's difficult to heal and keep these up, I will not argue that - occasionally I do have to give up the vitality and evade buffs and simply tier up via Chorus or spamming my attack ballads, but I will always keep my BoW up. You can have it when you pry it from my cold, dead songbook.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

AotFP give about 750 moral (IIRC) over thirty seconds, One IF beats it, so for healing puposes sololy AotFP isn't worth the time since IF is faster to execute.

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I'd have to disagree with this.

Ballad of Steel provides +780 Armor
Ballad of Balance provides a +804 Evade
Ballad of War provides a +20% Melee damage
Anthem of the Free People provides +1545.4 In-Combat Morale Regeneration

All of the Ballads add +3% Healing and Motivation Skills Morale Healing

Now completing all of the above will cost you 388 power, have no inductions and take you maybe 4 seconds with animations.

Hitting Inspire Fellows once will cost you 382 power and has an induction of 2.5 seconds, so for about the same power and maybe a second longer you're trading all those Ballad Benefits for one Inspire Fellows. In my opinion there is no contest between the benefits of Inspire Fellows VS tiering up with Ballads and AotFP. If you're not using Ballads, you're placing an unnecessary burden on your healing capability.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark_J

Ballad of Steel provides +780 Armor (which is not a group buff)
Ballad of Balance provides a +804 Evade
Ballad of War provides a +20% Melee damage (if you have the legacy and it's maxed - otherwise it's 10% or whatever you have the legacy at)
Anthem of the Free People provides +1545.4 In-Combat Morale Regeneration (<3 AotFP)

All of the Ballads add +3% Healing and Motivation Skills Morale Healing (+5% in WoR and two tales is a huge power suck in BG so it works to trait WoR again)

Now completing all of the above will cost you 388 power, have no inductions and take you maybe 4 seconds with animations. (It takes longer than this - evade/vitality buffs are now songs if you're slotting Smooth Voice - and otherwise they're not group buffs...so unless you're slotting Smooth Voice, they're useless to your group unless you're just putting them up for yourself...in which case they don't apply to this discussion)

Hitting Inspire Fellows once will cost you 382 power (less if you're 5/6 DN, slot Life Singer, at least 2 WoR and/or have -power costs) and has an induction of 2.5 seconds, so for about the same power and maybe a second longer you're trading all those Ballad Benefits for one Inspire Fellows. In my opinion there is no contest between the benefits of Inspire Fellows VS tiering up with Ballads and AotFP. If you're not using Ballads, you're placing an unnecessary burden on your healing capability.

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Added a couple thoughts above.

BTW, it's funny how much more I use IF now in Mirkwood. It's now a must legacy on my raid book, whereas I would rarely use it before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark_J

I'd have to disagree with this.

Ballad of Steel provides +780 Armor (self buff)
Ballad of Balance provides a +804 Evade (self buff, or groups, but then your 4 seconds is higher)
Ballad of War provides a +20% Melee damage
Anthem of the Free People provides +1545.4 In-Combat Morale Regeneration (or about 750 morale over 30 seconds :))

All of the Ballads add +3% Healing and Motivation Skills Morale Healing

Now completing all of the above will cost you 388 power, have no inductions and take you maybe 4 seconds with animations.

Hitting Inspire Fellows once will cost you 382 power and has an induction of 2.5 seconds, so for about the same power and maybe a second longer you're trading all those Ballad Benefits for one Inspire Fellows. In my opinion there is no contest between the benefits of Inspire Fellows VS tiering up with Ballads and AotFP. If you're not using Ballads, you're placing an unnecessary burden on your healing capability.

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Again, as I stated in an earlier post, no matter what you are doing with ballads you can not match you're healing output for green numbers compared to spamming heals. Just can't do it. In my case, my IF hits everyone for ~700-1k each time (and I don't even run with the IF Legacy), if anyone crits its can top 2k. Tiering+AotFP can't match that, just can't. If you're pointing out that with the buff the group will take less damage, then you have to factoring the increased time to tier up. I can almost get of TWO IF with ballad inductions counted in.

Time yourself, it take about 7-8 second to chain 4 ballots (assuming one has an induction). Thats about the same time it take to execute two IF (not back to back) but for time/healing return.

This subject was beat to death over a year ago, minstrels presented parses (IIRC) indicating they could almost double the healing output of someone tiering up by simply spamming skills. I'm not saying this is good, or even fun, but it is what it is. In reality, you can heal for more with each individual skill by tiering up, no doubt. What you're not considering is that you are executing less healing skills per minute when tiering up.

If your teiring up, your NOT saving power, you're NOT maximizing your healing/per minute. That's just simple math. Power issue even gets more lopsided once you have the DN set and the -power legacy.

In the end, you're trading off power/overall healing output for the buffs. Its a judgment/opinion as to whether or not the trade-offs are worth it. IMO, when your max potential for healing is required, and not many fights put a minstrel in this situation, teiring up is a liability and an "unnecessary burden on your healing capability".

If you are running stuff that doesn't require your "A" game then the BoW is awesome. Like I said, I use it on my book for running everything except the hardest content. If you can run BoW for hardest content, more power to you, I simple prefer to be a more effective healer. Its not a matter of right/wrong, its a matter of preference.

Just to clarify, I certainly do use Inspire Fellows, I just don't replace the Ballads with it. I would also take Ballad of War over Inspire Fellows as a Legacy...

It doesn't take anywhere near 7-8 seconds to chain the Ballads, it's right around 4 seconds unless you are using Smooth Voice.

Again, I'll disagree that just spamming Bolster is the best use of a Minstrel. Everything else we bring to the table makes it foolish to simply spam heals. If we can reduce the time a Mob stays alive, we reduce the need for healing, if we can increase the ICMR of our entire group, we reduce the need for healing, I could go on and on but I'm sure you get the point.


I think it's a mistake not to tier up and use more than just BC in any fight, but it's these types of differences that make this game great :)

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Originally Posted by Mark_J

It doesn't take anywhere near 7-8 seconds to chain the Ballads, it's right around 4 seconds unless you are using Smooth Voice.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIuazOK1IoQ

First ballot executes at 21 seconds, the 4th ends at 27 seconds. No inductions

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doug01

Time yourself, it take about 7-8 second to chain 4 ballots (assuming one has an induction)

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I might be one second off, maybe

*shrug*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark_J

Just to clarify, I certainly do use Inspire Fellows, I just don't replace the Ballads with it. I would also take Ballad of War over Inspire Fellows as a Legacy...

It doesn't take anywhere near 7-8 seconds to chain the Ballads, it's right around 4 seconds unless you are using Smooth Voice.

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Without Smooth Voice, you're not buffing your group with +evade or +vitality (or ever with +armor via ballads) - only yourself. So I am completely lost as to how those help your group at all aside from +3% H&M which is < 5% H&M? They don't - not unless they're traited. Of course BoW is useful! 20% melee damage with a legacy is great in places like SG, the Gauntlet, etc. Heck, it's great everywhere where we have a lot of melee. In BG, how melee heavy are you? We take minimal melee after Durchest. *shrugs*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIuazOK1IoQ

First ballot executes at 21 seconds, the 4th ends at 27 seconds. No inductions

I might be one second off, maybe

*shrug*

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Try your combat log parsed through CStats for a more accurate timestamp rather than a fraps video which is subject to all sorts of lag/delay issues as well as mobs beating on you or the delay you get from Auto Attack even when it's turned off. You'll see how long it takes then, it's just about 4 seconds on average.

Here is an example from just a few minutes ago;

You wound the Conscripted Defender with Ballad of Steel for 141 points of Light damage. 2:49:10 PM
You wound the Conscripted Defender with Ballad of Balance for 345 points of Light damage. 2:49:11 PM

There's no way it could be 7-8 seconds for all 4 when you can execute 2 of them in one second...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Without Smooth Voice, you're not buffing your group with +evade or +vitality (or ever with +armor via ballads) - only yourself. So I am completely lost as to how those help your group at all aside from +3% H&M which is < 5% H&M? They don't - not unless they're traited. Of course BoW is useful! 20% melee damage with a legacy is great in places like SG, the Gauntlet, etc. Heck, it's great everywhere where we have a lot of melee. In BG, how melee heavy are you? We take minimal melee after Durchest. *shrugs*

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I agree with what you're saying, but I really don't select my legacies based on two bosses (the Twins and LT) in a single Instance. For those 2 bosses AotFP is really about the only thing worth using other than your Heals although the argument could be made for utilizing BoW on the Fire Twin...

I am going to point out that in Durchest and the Twins I value the fear resist and flame mitigation buffs more then BoW.

We have minimal melee dps (ie probably a grd, 2 captains and a burg in a raid, if there's a champ it's me, so what I do on my minstrel then is moot), but reducing incoming fire damage on the people beating on the fire guy is huge, plus the higher chance to simply resist the first pulse of fear damage from your pool is also very useful. With 3 yellow traits, the buffs last 30,40,50 seconds and I have a maxed lvl 60 2nd age book for my T3 ballads as I've stated before (higher ratings then a lvl 65 3rd age). If I'm going to scale ballads I'll put up my fear/flame buffs first every time in those fights, and then BoW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark_J

Try your combat log parsed through CStats for a more accurate timestamp rather than a fraps video which is subject to all sorts of lag/delay issues as well as mobs beating on you or the delay you get from Auto Attack even when it's turned off. You'll see how long it takes then, it's just about 4 seconds on average.

Here is an example from just a few minutes ago;

You wound the Conscripted Defender with Ballad of Steel for 141 points of Light damage. 2:49:10 PM
You wound the Conscripted Defender with Ballad of Balance for 345 points of Light damage. 2:49:11 PM

There's no way it could be 7-8 seconds for all 4 when you can execute 2 of them in one second...

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I must have an older version of cstast. Mine either won’t do time stamps or I don’t know how to make it do time stamps.

Either way, I did test it and you are correct. Spamming just ballads resulted in 1 action per seconds with no interrupts. I shouldn't put so much stock in videos. :(

25 actions in 25 seconds
27 actions in 27 seconds

With using one induction (song of vigour) once in every 4 actions resulted in the time only increasing about 2 seconds.

Tested on wargs in north downs:
Ballad of resonance-Song of Vigour - Ballad of swiftness- ballad of stout

4 actions in 6 seconds (one induction, 3 ballads) (repeated result 8 times)
5 actions in 7 seconds (one inductions) (4 ballads) (repeated result twice)

So my 7-8 was high. Your 1 second per action is correct, but once you add in one induction, as I stated, it jumps.

Just for the record;

Ballad of resonance-Song of Vigour - Song of Balance- ballad of stout- ballad of steel

5 actions in 10 seconds (repeated 3 times)
(this was a bit harder to get being that I only looked at fights where the mobs initial attack was miss/B/P/E so to avoid set backs.)

So I screwed up with the 7-8, its really 6. Not 4 though, but I think you were referring to ballads only, which I was not.

FYI, not matter how many test I ran, I was never able to execute 2 actions in one second per your statement, or even average better than 1.0 actions per second yet alone 0.5 actions. I always had the skill chained and never AA.

Also, I can execute IF in 3.3 seconds with animations. So I can ALMOST execute 2 IF in the time it takes to tier up (again, assuming one induction). Also, my incoming healing is a whopping 288. In 22 inspire fellowships I average 805 per heal without having the IF legacy

So, although I'll agree you can teir up in 4 seconds, you still aren’t producing more healing with AotFP in the same time frame, and your burning more power to do so. Also, AotFP has a 2m (?) CD so you can, at best, keep it up 40% of the time. The other 60% your tiering up for 5-10% on your heals but you're casting them almost 50% less. That’s a net loss of 40% healing. Even during the time AotFP is up, you’re still healing less, just not as much, rough guess 30%. Also, the only thing you "bring to the table" with a four second tier is BoW and AotFP. I think I clearly shown AotFP is a fail compared to just popping one IF (+associate buff which I forgot about). So its just BoW vs 30-40% more healing. You're choice.

Long post, and I don't think anyone is going to change their preferences so I'll leave this thread as is. Good luck and have fun!

My first 65 Second-Age got H&M, Bolster Courage, Chord of Salvation CD, -Song Resist, +Ballad of Fire Resists, and Healing Skills Power Cost. Not ideal but pretty good, it's depressing how many I've seen since then that ID'd terribly.

I got lucky on a 3A; rolled heal power cost, H&M and BOW; reforge 2 got me bolster. I'll never bother w/ a 2nd age now. Took me 8 scrolls to max these out, so why bother.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Added a couple thoughts above.

BTW, it's funny how much more I use IF now in Mirkwood. It's now a must legacy on my raid book, whereas I would rarely use it before.

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QFT

Mirkwood and our new super crits have completely changed Inspire Fellows for me. I crit it near and sometimes over 2000 on people with incoming heal mods. I'm amazed now at how big and how often it can land for. In Mirkwood it's darn near a group Bolster Courage compared to Moria when you get a lucky roll on it. With the -10% healing cost trait, and my songbook power cost reducer, and my 5 piece DN bonus I can land that thing for about 344 power, That's nothing compared to seeing it super crit now for massive numbers. It does take luck and incoming heal mods on the targets but it can really be worth it now in ways it wasn't before Mirkwood.

I try to work it into skill rotation with Song of Soothing now often several times per pull in ways that I never bothered to before. My power pool also holds out much better than ever before. The downside of that is people are starting to get real sloppy. So when those crits don't land they melt fast. Often they were clueless on how much damage they were taking.