Weaver need a range slow

Weaver are CC classe and more range classe than melee. All ranged freeps classe have a ranged slow. I dont understand why weaver dont have one. There could be a choice to make betwin root or slow in traits line or somthing. Put induction on the skill but weaver need it. Spider are the most squishy classe and have poor dps, my auto attack melee is 80 dmg... and i have 3 dmg corruption traits. Root are alwes broken even with stealweave web. It could be usefull if it could be hard to break like the rain of thorn of the hunter ( wich is not a CC but a DPS classe remember )

Im sur some will not agree with me and some will but i had to trow that on the forum its been a long time i was thinking about that and now i say it.

Weaver are fun to play but i dont like to see all classe around having a CC skill that as a CC classe i should have .. :(

Wiht all that Diminishing return and pots, root and mez are not usefull as a slow. Its might be not so bad for LM cause they have a lot more and instant cast without needing to face target, but for weaver thats not the case.

It would be lovely of course, considering how hard it is to find CC useful these days, but personally I cant really ask for anything more atm. Letting there be a trait that transforms the root to a ranged slow is an interesting idea tho.

I dont really agree a spider is a ranged class either, more hybrid imo. You need to be in melee also to be effective.

/Silkdawn

LOL shut up.

With the way Web the Earth is currently, a ranged slow would be overpowered. However, if they change WtE to function like Lore-master tar, then I could see the adding of something like a 20 second 30% slow put on Lethal Kiss.

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Originally Posted by featherlight111

With the way Web the Earth is currently, a ranged slow would be overpowered. However, if they change WtE to function like Lore-master tar, then I could see the adding of something like a 20 second 30% slow put on Lethal Kiss.

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I would seriously love that, i dont mind of loosing the instant cast of WTE it last only 10 sec. Would prefer a tar like Lm and a ranged slow of course.

This a joke, right?

We spiders need a skill whereby we shoot webbing between two trees. Then when a freep passes through he gets caught in the web and we come and eat it!

Also, we should be able to jump from keeps and not break our legs. Spider web bungee cord type of thing. (spider /pose emote sort of)

I think that weavers are fine (probably even too good) although if a snare is added to lethal kiss, then it should have a 1-2s induction as well as the root in place/animation.

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Originally Posted by bprorsum

This a joke, right?

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Hey, you're missing a star.

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Originally Posted by reverendmaggot

Hey, you're missing a star.

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sometimes HIPS, even twice cant save you for a DoT :D

Ranged CJ, Latent poison, Stun, Root, WtE.


No thanks. Spiders already own melee classes. Don't make it worse.

guardians need a 50m knockback, 10k morale, 8k armour value, and 2x the dps, but we aren't getting it.


shut up

lol

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Meh, i dont think it'd be that bad....he's saying that he'd take losing his root for a slow. Doesn't seem all that unfair of a trade...

certainly not worth laughing out loud as the 4 or so people ahead of me have done :D

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Originally Posted by Ryuc

Meh, i dont think it'd be that bad....he's saying that he'd take losing his root for a slow. Doesn't seem all that unfair of a trade...

certainly not worth laughing out loud as the 4 or so people ahead of me have done :D

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It is definately worth laughing about. Giving a weaver a ranged slow on top of WtE?! seriously? You have to remember that weavers already get +10% incombat runspeed and can DoT on the move, has a CJ, mez, hatchlings, power drain.

How about this...take away the spider's root, and give them a 10% slow on a 10s duration 1 min cooldown with a 1.5s induction.

This could be hight ranked skill. Its fun to see people trying to laf about that. I dont realy care to have induction on web the earth if it can last long like the Tar of the LM. Every freeps seams to cry about that web the earth. It last 10 sec... il trow this away for a ranged slow that can last 30 sec with induction. This game could be more fun if we could make such different build, chosing betwin certain skill like we have to do with traits, but there is juste not anough so all spiders are close to be the same build.

Warden can range CJ fare more away than the spider. i dont know if there is induction but i find it funny to see a warden complaning about that.

Sérioulsy a CC classe without range slow, ok Web the earth, Lm have the tar and a lot more, there is nothing you can complain about it if you look at the Lm skill.

And please dont show to much immaturity juste read and say somthing intelligent if you think its not good

I don't care about WtE and other stuff (champ sprint ftw) what does concern me about a weaver slow however is their advanced run speed+the ranged root/daze and short range cj they have currently. It seems silly to me to want a slow when you can already run faster then everything besides a warg in stealth or an ooc hunter and you most likely can surpass those with a run pot which on my server all the r8+ spiders use granted its ooc but with 20% run speed you can basically always get in range to use daze/root.

Of course I find many things silly within the realm of pve/pvp (like support/cc classes doing more dps then cc/healing) but thats for another thread. I don't think I'd really care if spiders got a slow as long as it was A. cureable and B. not a posion, so like a disease.

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Originally Posted by ti-pere3

This could be hight ranked skill. Its fun to see people trying to laf about that. I dont realy care to have induction on web the earth if it can last long like the Tar of the LM. Every freeps seams to cry about that web the earth. It last 10 sec... il trow this away for a ranged slow that can last 30 sec with induction. This game could be more fun if we could make such different build, chosing betwin certain skill like we have to do with traits, but there is juste not anough so all spiders are close to be the same build.

Warden can range CJ fare more away than the spider. i dont know if there is induction but i find it funny to see a warden complaning about that.

Sérioulsy a CC classe without range slow, ok Web the earth, Lm have the tar and a lot more, there is nothing you can complain about it if you look at the Lm skill.

And please dont show to much immaturity juste read and say somthing intelligent if you think its not good

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If you don't want people to laugh at you when you say give weavers a ranged slow, you could at least be specific with the description of the slow. Give the % slow, cooldown on it, range, resistance type if one, duration of slow, induction if one.

It appears you mostly solo and not group or raid. If that isn't the case, i'd imagine you are insane. WtE is an amazing OFFENSIVE and DEFENSIVE skill in groups/raids (and in 1vs1 as well). You would give that up for a single target slow? It would diminish the value of a spider in a group/raid a fair bit. Currently, R6+ spiders are a formidable foe when 1vs1. Exchanging WtE for a potent single target slow could very well increase their solo ability. I'm not saying spiders shouldn't be tough, but what it seems you are asking is to give up your group/raid responsibility in return for superior 1vs1 abilities.

i'd take a range slow if it had a 2sec intro and needed to be traited and at which point would deactivate your poop slow....which is the best slow ever.... aoe -50% for 10sec reapplies every 3-4sec while the guy is still rollin in it. Gets entire raids while you zip off.

I would definitely give up tar for WTE so... i dont know what the hell you weavers are tlaknig about

i el oh el when i read this.... good try



http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums...thz2171747.gif

Web the earth is the best slow in the game. You have range CC and increased run speed so its not like you need anything else to stop people from escaping a 1v1. Smothering web cj also has a mini range. Definitely not needed

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Originally Posted by iolio1

Web the earth is the best slow in the game. You have range CC and increased run speed so its not like you need anything else to stop people from escaping a 1v1. Smothering web cj also has a mini range. Definitely not needed

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Give Warleaders a slow then. They don't have one.

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Originally Posted by Ryuc

Give Warleaders a slow then. They don't have one.

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Sure. Then captains can be given one as well.

See how I did that?

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Originally Posted by KillGore81

Sure. Then captains can be given one as well.

See how I did that?

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I saw how you did that

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Originally Posted by KillGore81

Sure. Then captains can be given one as well.

See how I did that?

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Not that it matters, but they have a pet that can hinder. Doh!

Weavers need nothing - other than having TK's tick lowered significantly.

Weavers are fine and with their runspeed don't need a slow.

Lay down your web and then use your super speed... Voila!!! Ranged slow!!

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Originally Posted by TheCrusher

Not that it matters, but they have a pet that can hinder. Doh!

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Yep, and I knew that when I made my original post. I was just wondering how long it would take for someone to mention it like any captain would actually use it. So, you're right... it doesn't matter.

Im not saying WTE is not good anough. Spider is a CC classe, so im supose to do CC, but its also a dmg over time classe wich is not good for CC cause it alwes break it. spider have only one attack that is not DOT or draining power. Draining power and DOT are removing root and mez. So how do a spider supose to do good CC. To me it sounds like its working agains ourself. Even with the stealweave web the root breake like toilette paper..

Hunter can AOE root you and kill you without breaking the root!!!! If you dont see an issue here i dont understand you.

So thats why im asking for a slow cause it dont break on dmg it would be bether for a dmg over time classe. Remove AOE root and single root to give a slow.

And for the run speed in combat, it dosent make a huge difference since all freeps can spam slow on you expet the captain.

If some of you are geting obset with WTE thats your opinion, but im sur i could make a bether use of a single ranged slow instead of all thos Root mez.

WTE dont last to long its more an escape skill too me. Yes you can go in melee Slow every body than Trapdoor to wait the time you gonna get kill. But i would like to be able to change skill in trait line for some thing els.

This could be for other classe and other skill too.

First, let me say that I disagree with the OP. I don't believe we need a ranged slow. WTE is a good slow, and essentially has a range of 10m because of it's AOE.

Second, for those who place it upon some mega pedestal and are bashing the OP I think you are being disingenuous as well.

Freeps have sprint skills that allow them to ignore the short slow of WTE or their sprint lasts long enough to more than make up for the lost ground due to the slow. Some even have the ability to be completely immune while in their sprint to any CC other than a CJ. Freeps also have ranged slows and fears that effectively negate the speed boost of the Weaver racial trait. There are some pretty effective ranged slows, that last a lot longer than the 10 second WTE slow, freeps can bring to bear.

I see it every night...I get run down all the time by sprinting freeps, or because of ranged slows and fears, even after dropping WTE. I see freeps escaping from me plenty because they have a sprint or skill that makes them immune to any ranged cc I can bring to bear, and they are far enough away from me to be outside the effective AOE if I chase and drop WTE.

I won't lie and say WTE is worthless. it is very valuable. I love it, I use it, and I like it as it is. However, it's also not some Zeus among the pantheon of skills either. It's not a guaranteed getaway...it can be effectively negated by counter-slows and fears (or CC of any sort), by skills that give freeps a speed boost lasting longer than the slow, by snares that can be applied to a creep lasting longer than the WTE slow, etc.

However, the idea of converting a root to a ranged slow is interesting. IMO ranged slows are even better than ranged roots/mezzes because snares are not subject to DR. The OP mentions it being a high ranked skill (as a possibility for change and to temper it's potency).

I could see a TRAIT that would need to be burned that would convert the rank 9 skill Grasping Web, which is the 3 target max, aoe Root, with a 40m range, 7m AOE radius, into a 3 target slow.

using some of the ranged slows Freeps have as a model, I think this would be a fair tradeoff:

Slowing Web
3 target max
7m radius
40m range
30s duration
applies a 15% slow to your target(s)

make it a rank 10 or 11 trait and I think that would be a fair balance.

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Originally Posted by NYSEguy1970

First, let me say that I disagree with the OP. I don't believe we need a ranged slow. WTE is a good slow, and essentially has a range of 10m because of it's AOE.

Second, for those who place it upon some mega pedestal and are bashing the OP I think you are being disingenuous as well.

Freeps have sprint skills that allow them to ignore the short slow of WTE or their sprint lasts long enough to more than make up for the lost ground due to the slow. Some even have the ability to be completely immune while in their sprint to any CC other than a CJ. Freeps also have ranged slows and fears that effectively negate the speed boost of the Weaver racial trait. There are some pretty effective ranged slows, that last a lot longer than the 10 second WTE slow, freeps can bring to bear.

I see it every night...I get run down all the time by sprinting freeps, or because of ranged slows and fears, even after dropping WTE. I see freeps escaping from me plenty because they have a sprint or skill that makes them immune to any ranged cc I can bring to bear, and they are far enough away from me to be outside the effective AOE if I chase and drop WTE.

I won't lie and say WTE is worthless. it is very valuable. I love it, I use it, and I like it as it is. However, it's also not some Zeus among the pantheon of skills either. It's not a guaranteed getaway...it can be effectively negated by counter-slows and fears (or CC of any sort), by skills that give freeps a speed boost lasting longer than the slow, by snares that can be applied to a creep lasting longer than the WTE slow, etc.

However, the idea of converting a root to a ranged slow is interesting. IMO ranged slows are even better than ranged roots/mezzes because snares are not subject to DR. The OP mentions it being a high ranked skill (as a possibility for change and to temper it's potency).

I could see a TRAIT that would need to be burned that would convert the rank 9 skill Grasping Web, which is the 3 target max, aoe Root, with a 40m range, 7m AOE radius, into a 3 target slow.

using some of the ranged slows Freeps have as a model, I think this would be a fair tradeoff:

Slowing Web
3 target max
7m radius
40m range
30s duration
applies a 15% slow to your target(s)

make it a rank 10 or 11 trait and I think that would be a fair balance.

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Thx you! you understand and explain what i wanted to say bether than i could.

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Originally Posted by KillGore81

like any captain would actually use it.

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I've seen many captains use it, actually.

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Originally Posted by NYSEguy1970

Freeps have sprint skills that allow them to ignore the short slow of WTE or their sprint lasts long enough to more than make up for the lost ground due to the slow. Some even have the ability to be completely immune while in their sprint to any CC other than a CJ. Freeps also have ranged slows and fears that effectively negate the speed boost of the Weaver racial trait. There are some pretty effective ranged slows, that last a lot longer than the 10 second WTE slow, freeps can bring to bear.

I see it every night...I get run down all the time by sprinting freeps, or because of ranged slows and fears, even after dropping WTE. I see freeps escaping from me plenty because they have a sprint or skill that makes them immune to any ranged cc I can bring to bear, and they are far enough away from me to be outside the effective AOE if I chase and drop WTE.

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Seriously? Some freeps have sprint skills that negate slows, however, NONE of the sprints make them immune to any sort of CC - it is a seperate skill that champs have(ONE class), and it comes at a fairly large cost. Also...a 50% slow is a HUGE slow. If you are being run down by freeps after this it is likely a zerg and you should die anyways. WtE has a very large radius as well...so saying freeps run around it and still catch you and you are complaining: you simply want godmode. How is giving an extra slow going solve that problem especially when you have to face the target to use it? An aoe root would be MUCH better than the AOE slow you suggest...because chances are they will be on a mount...and they will have to dismount to remove the root and you effectively gain distance >>> slow.

The only reason you really gave for switching out an AoE root for an AoE slow is freeps run away. However...if you AoE root them it gives you that extra time for you or someone else to catch up to them and slow them. Really, it should be the BAs job to slow them if at range, and melee should always have a slow on the targets (if in range of course). What about if it is a freep class with a sprint that negates slows that is fleeing and you want to catch?...well then you'd be better off rooting it so it doesn't get away! How ironic, isn't it?

If a class uses its sprint on you in a 1vs1, spiders have ways round it. They can simply burrow and wait for their sprint to be over with, come up and lay WtE.

SO again...there really isn't one valid reason why your root should be changed to a slow. Not to mention, your biggest rant was about freeps having sprint skills that negate slows: sadly, creep classes have the same ability.

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Seriously? Some freeps have sprint skills that negate slows, however, NONE of the sprints make them immune to any sort of CC - it is a seperate skill that champs have(ONE class), and it comes at a fairly large cost. Also...a 50% slow is a HUGE slow. If you are being run down by freeps after this it is likely a zerg and you should die anyways. WtE has a very large radius as well...so saying freeps run around it and still catch you and you are complaining: you simply want godmode. How is giving an extra slow going solve that problem especially when you have to face the target to use it? An aoe root would be MUCH better than the AOE slow you suggest...because chances are they will be on a mount...and they will have to dismount to remove the root and you effectively gain distance >>> slow.

The only reason you really gave for switching out an AoE root for an AoE slow is freeps run away. However...if you AoE root them it gives you that extra time for you or someone else to catch up to them and slow them. Really, it should be the BAs job to slow them if at range, and melee should always have a slow on the targets (if in range of course). What about if it is a freep class with a sprint that negates slows that is fleeing and you want to catch?...well then you'd be better off rooting it so it doesn't get away! How ironic, isn't it?

If a class uses its sprint on you in a 1vs1, spiders have ways round it. They can simply burrow and wait for their sprint to be over with, come up and lay WtE.

SO again...there really isn't one valid reason why your root should be changed to a slow. Not to mention, your biggest rant was about freeps having sprint skills that negate slows: sadly, creep classes have the same ability.

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Please, my post was far from a rant....you however have provided an excellent example. Thank you for that.

I merely was toning down the hyperbole that you seem to want to continue about the 'godmode' wte slow.

my post essentially is that while it's a great skill, and powerful in it's own way, it's far from some godmode slow.

with ranged slows freeps can even the playing field quite easily, and freeps don't have any shortage of ranged slows.

50% slow is big. for 10 seconds...that is short, and a proper temper to it's power.

As an example, Anthem of the Wizards is a 40m ranged slow. It's only a 30% slow, but it's duration is 45 seconds. The longer duration more than makes up for the lower %, making Anthem of the Wizards quite powerful in it's own right.

So, again, my point, which you seemed to have missed, is that freeps have skills and such that can and do temper the power of WTE quite effectively. Does it do so all the time, no, but IMO it's well balanced....and I see it in practice because sometimes I still get slowed, and run down while being chased after dropping WTE, and sometimes I am able to get away.

So, please continue to rant and froth and read into my post that i'm asking for godmode. I am not. i've been playing a weaver for a very long time and know full well how powerful we are...which is why I indicated that I don't think we NEED a slow in the first sentences of my original post. Perhaps you should reread that instead of taking a part of my post out of context to support your rant.

However, if we were to get a ranged slow, which presents an interesting 'what if', I would like to see something along the lines of what I suggested. essentially sacrifice the aoe root, for an aoe slow with a trait slot and the slow being longer in duration but not nearly as much of a slow in magnitude.

Like its already been said, a spiders increased run speed acts as a universal unlimited range slow. Any rank5+ weaver that thinks they need a slow needs to have a serious look at their skill set

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Originally Posted by NYSEguy1970

with ranged slows freeps can even the playing field quite easily, and freeps don't have any shortage of ranged slows..

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There is this class on creepside called the Blackarrow. It has a 40%, 40m ranged slow which can be easily reapplied. Creeps don't have any shortage of ranged slows either which you seem to imply. It helps if you take off the blindfold

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Originally Posted by NYSEguy1970

So, again, my point, which you seemed to have missed, is that freeps have skills and such that can and do temper the power of WTE quite effectively. Does it do so all the time, no, but IMO it's well balanced....and I see it in practice because sometimes I still get slowed, and run down while being chased after dropping WTE, and sometimes I am able to get away.

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There are these classes called Wargs and Reavers on creepside that have a 200% runspeed immune to CC (except CJs). Many times LMs lay down tar, but sometimes it just doesn't work against godmode wargs and reavers that pop their godmode skills!

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Originally Posted by NYSEguy1970

However, if we were to get a ranged slow, which presents an interesting 'what if', I would like to see something along the lines of what I suggested. essentially sacrifice the aoe root, for an aoe slow with a trait slot and the slow being longer in duration but not nearly as much of a slow in magnitude.

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Why is it you want a ranged slow again? None of your posts make any sense to why spiders should have another slow in addition to WtE. And please don't say you don't want your spider to have another ranged slow, you been offering your suggestions to what the spider slows could be. If you didn't want them to have one, you'd simply say "i don't think they need a ranged slow" and leave it at that, eh

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

It is definately worth laughing about. Giving a weaver a ranged slow on top of WtE?! seriously? You have to remember that weavers already get +10% incombat runspeed and can DoT on the move, has a CJ, mez, hatchlings, power drain.

How about this...take away the spider's root, and give them a 10% slow on a 10s duration 1 min cooldown with a 1.5s induction.

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Wow... except for some minor changes you just described a LM... but you failed to mention the LMs much higher AoE DPS, more Stuns/Mezes and roots, LMs tar lasts longer, oh yes and LMs can heal.

I'm not gonna argue the fact at higher ranks the weavers can be OP, but so are a few freep classes (no rank needed).

I can agree with Tip in changing the WtE to be just like LMs tar, and adding a ranged slow.

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

There is this class on creepside called the Blackarrow. It has a 40%, 40m ranged slow which can be easily reapplied. Creeps don't have any shortage of ranged slows either which you seem to imply. It helps if you take off the blindfold

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Ok, you should really take of your blindfold and re-read what you wrote. Blackarrows have a ranged slow. A pretty good one I gotta say, but just Blackarrows. Compared to at least 3 freep classes that have ranged slows, how is it not a shortage? Not all creeps carry a pocket BA.

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

There are these classes called Wargs and Reavers on creepside that have a 200% runspeed immune to CC (except CJs). Many times LMs lay down tar, but sometimes it just doesn't work against godmode wargs and reavers that pop their godmode skills!

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Now I can't speak for Reavers as I haven't played one, but wargs like champs and guards using sprint are NOT immune to CC (stun/mez, root or CJ) but do bypass slows. Also the reaver charge is not useable in combat.

All I know is that when I play RvR I am always slowed-always. We don't need anything else to slow us down, stun us or grey out all our skills. Enough is enough.

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

There is this class on creepside called the Blackarrow. It has a 40%, 40m ranged slow which can be easily reapplied. Creeps don't have any shortage of ranged slows either which you seem to imply. It helps if you take off the blindfold

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the only ranged slow creeps have, but it is effective no doubt. I believe that there are more than one freep class capable of ranged slows. Off the top of my head I can think of RKs, LMs, Minis, and Hunters...interesting...most of the typically viewed 'ranged classes or hybrid ranged classes' on freepside have ranged slows. Some of those classes even have melee range AOE slows in addition to the ranged slow. Therefore, there is precedent for a class to have both a ranged slow in addition to a melee slow. IMO it's not that far fetched to suggest that it might be something to CONSIDER on creepside.

however, please continue with the hyperbole about MY blindfold. I love irony.

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There are these classes called Wargs and Reavers on creepside that have a 200% runspeed immune to CC (except CJs). Many times LMs lay down tar, but sometimes it just doesn't work against godmode wargs and reavers that pop their godmode skills!

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AFAIK CJs are CC, therefore to state that wargs and reavers are immune then add an 'exception' means that they are not immune.

I always pay my bills on time, except when I pay them late....ROFL, yeah...keep ranting.

Additionally, wargs are not immune to any CC when sprinting, so again you are presenting an inaccurate point.

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Why is it you want a ranged slow again? None of your posts make any sense to why spiders should have another slow in addition to WtE.

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I don't WANT a ranged slow, though it would be nice to have one. I get along fine, but what I would like is a choice and some flexibility. there is a difference between 'need' and 'like'. I need a vehicle to get to work. I'd like to have a XKE, but I don't need one to get to work. My current truck works fine. I know that is a subtle difference that may be lost on you, but I believe others may understand.

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And please don't say you don't want your spider to have another ranged slow, you been offering your suggestions to what the spider slows could be. If you didn't want them to have one, you'd simply say "i don't think they need a ranged slow" and leave it at that, eh

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actually I offer my suggestion (singular, as I don't believe i've offered muttiple suggestions of ranged slows that would be interesting to ponder for a weaver) as an 'academic exercise'. It may be lost on you, but sometimes it's interesting to muse over 'what if' scenarios and exercise your mind a bit. You may have even engaged it the practice yourself if you've ever bought a lottery ticket and started to think how you would spend the money if you won, even it the drawing didn't take place yet and you know you really are probably not going to win.

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Originally Posted by Morihei

Ok, you should really take of your blindfold and re-read what you wrote. Blackarrows have a ranged slow. A pretty good one I gotta say, but just Blackarrows. Compared to at least 3 freep classes that have ranged slows, how is it not a shortage? Not all creeps carry a pocket BA.

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Not all minstrels slot Anthem of the Wizards legendary. On top of that, not all minstrels slot Glorious Anthem to increase the duration of Anthem of the Wizards from 30 seconds to 45 seconds (this is for you NYSEguy). And lastly, not all runekeepers slot Icy Discourse to reapply the slow at 30% if the 70% is negated from damage (which if creeps are smart, would just use a root pot to damage themselves to get out of the slow).

And just like creeps, not all freeps carry pocket minstrels, hunters, or runekeepers. It's both ways my friend.

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Originally Posted by Megas

Not all minstrels slot Anthem of the Wizards legendary. On top of that, not all minstrels slot Glorious Anthem to increase the duration of Anthem of the Wizards from 30 seconds to 45 seconds (this is for you NYSEguy). And lastly, not all runekeepers slot Icy Discourse to reapply the slow at 30% if the 70% is negated from damage (which if creeps are smart, would just use a root pot to damage themselves to get out of the slow).

And just like creeps, not all freeps carry pocket minstrels, hunters, or runekeepers. It's both ways my friend.

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Thanks for the clarification. So you have to slot a legendary to use the Anthem of the Wizards? I thought it was a regular skill that had a (30) second slow. The extra 15 seconds is only if Glorius Anthem is slotted. I understand now. However, i wasn't aware that AotW required a legendary to use as well, I thought it was just a straight up skill.

I will say that I have not run into a single RK in the ettens that doesn't slot for the slow however. It may be 'optional' but in practical terms, I don't see RKs coming into the ettens w/o it slotted so therefore it's nearly a given slow in the freep repotoir. I also thought the root pot damage thing was a bug, so I would think that would get fixed at some point down the road.

Like i said, the Weaver is a DOT classe wich is not good when you try to mez or root,the root is alwes geting broken, even with stealweave web the root is still realy easy to break. The trait could give more resistance to the root instead of extending the duratioin of the clining and entangling web.

If weaver could have a bether root with the traits sloted, this could be good. But right now spider root is ****. So thats why i came with the idea of a ranged slow.

And on top of that, the weaver do a lot of litle dmg and thos litle dmg have a chance to break the root, its not like the hunter that can trow you 3 shot of around 300 dmg each with one skill and the root stil on you.

Even the reflect dmg can break the root. Stealweave web need to be changed for more resistance for the root like a 1/6 chance to break on dmg. Than we would not need a slow i guess.

Or when the root break, it could snare the target for the reste of the root duration. This is my favorite idea.

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Originally Posted by NYSEguy1970

the only ranged slow creeps have, but it is effective no doubt. I believe that there are more than one freep class capable of ranged slows. Off the top of my head I can think of RKs, LMs, Minis, and Hunters...interesting...most of the typically viewed 'ranged classes or hybrid ranged classes' on freepside have ranged slows. Some of those classes even have melee range AOE slows in addition to the ranged slow. Therefore, there is precedent for a class to have both a ranged slow in addition to a melee slow. IMO it's not that far fetched to suggest that it might be something to CONSIDER on creepside..

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Wrong -- Defilers also have a ranged slow. Just because fewer classes have a slow doesn't mean creepside is short of slows. See below.

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Originally Posted by NYSEguy1970

AFAIK CJs are CC, therefore to state that wargs and reavers are immune then add an 'exception' means that they are not immune. Additionally, wargs are not immune to any CC when sprinting, so again you are presenting an inaccurate point.

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My apologies, i meant to put slows and not CC. And reavers are immune to every form of CC except one which means they are IMMUNE to all the CC I was refering to. I never said they are immune to CJs which is far less common to happen to a reaver than a freep.

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Originally Posted by NYSEguy1970

I always pay my bills on time, except when I pay them late....ROFL, yeah...keep ranting.

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It would be more likely that a person would say "Except for one time I was a day late, i've paid all my bills on time for the last 5 years." It helps if you pick reasonable examples for your argument if you want it to hold any weight. And if you can't find a reasonable example, it is likely because your argument isn't reasonable :)

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Originally Posted by NYSEguy1970

I don't WANT a ranged slow, though it would be nice to have one. I get along fine, but what I would like is a choice and some flexibility. there is a difference between 'need' and 'like'. I need a vehicle to get to work. I'd like to have a XKE, but I don't need one to get to work. My current truck works fine. I know that is a subtle difference that may be lost on you, but I believe others may understand..

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You said you don't WANT a ranged slow. Your example is fail. Saying "you'd like to have" and saying you "want" it is the same thing. The only thing you have to consider is whether it is feasible to have. If you do not want something and were offered it, you'd simply say "no i don't want that." If someone offered you a bag full of puke, would you be like "well I don't want it or need it, but i'll take it anyways." However, if you wanted something that you couldn't quite afford, but someone offered it to you for free, you would gladly take it (you WANTED it).

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Originally Posted by Morihei

Ok, you should really take of your blindfold and re-read what you wrote. Blackarrows have a ranged slow. A pretty good one I gotta say, but just Blackarrows. Compared to at least 3 freep classes that have ranged slows, how is it not a shortage? Not all creeps carry a pocket BA..

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My point stands. Not all freeps carry a pocket class that has an effective ranged slow either. I don't think you realize what it means to have a shortage. Pretend EVERY creep class had a ranged slow and EVERY freep class has two ranged slows. No matter if you solo'd or grouped, you'd always have a ranged slow -- but because freeps have twice as many ranged slows, that in no way shape or form means creeps have a shortage of slows because freeps have more.

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Originally Posted by Morihei

Also the reaver charge is not useable in combat.

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Well the OP wanted a slow because freeps seem to get away (aka run away) -- and when freeps are fleeing there is a great chance a reaver can drop combat and get charge off. So again...there are multiple classes on creepside that have a sprint that negates slows to catch targets even through tar, just like freepside has.

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Originally Posted by ti-pere3

Like i said, the Weaver is a DOT classe wich is not good when you try to mez or root,the root is alwes geting broken, even with stealweave web the root is still realy easy to break. The trait could give more resistance to the root instead of extending the duratioin of the clining and entangling web.

If weaver could have a bether root with the traits sloted, this could be good. But right now spider root is ****. So thats why i came with the idea of a ranged slow.

And on top of that, the weaver do a lot of litle dmg and thos litle dmg have a chance to break the root, its not like the hunter that can trow you 3 shot of around 300 dmg each with one skill and the root stil on you.

Even the reflect dmg can break the root. Stealweave web need to be changed for more resistance for the root like a 1/6 chance to break on dmg. Than we would not need a slow i guess.

Or when the root break, it could snare the target for the reste of the root duration. This is my favorite idea.

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Why would you ROOT a target that you are dotting up or focus firing? You know roots will break fairly quick on damage. Instead...find something off to the side and root that instead. Or definsively/offensively -- if your WL is trying to kite - use your AoE root on the melee attacking/interrupting him. Make them use pots because I know not all freeps use pots, or could simply be on CD. When you learn how to use roots effectively, it can feel like a godsend.

It really sounds like you are asking for a stun, not a root. If targets are trying to run, any decent creep will know not to break roots if no one else is ready to slow it. If they aren't running...you can easily lay WtE, or chances are another creep will have a slow on the target being attacked.

Why is it the spider root seems to be the only problem and not the mez? A spider mez is the exact same thing as far as causing targets to be immobile. You don't seem to have an issue with that in any of your posts especially when targets are fleeing. So why is it the root should be turned into a snare and not the mez? (btw, I don't agree in turning either of those into a snare)

I don't think we need a slow... However, I could even be more OP if we got one :)

Simply wait until you are out of combat and use a run pot if you need to catch up to someone. Sure some will get away, but what fun would it be if no one got away?

110% in combat run speed is essentially like having a 10% snare on everyone who has to run at 100%.

So no.

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Originally Posted by Megas

Not all minstrels slot Anthem of the Wizards legendary. On top of that, not all minstrels slot Glorious Anthem to increase the duration of Anthem of the Wizards from 30 seconds to 45 seconds (this is for you NYSEguy). And lastly, not all runekeepers slot Icy Discourse to reapply the slow at 30% if the 70% is negated from damage (which if creeps are smart, would just use a root pot to damage themselves to get out of the slow).

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It is true Mintrels need to trait AotW, but I was reffering to LMs, Hunters and RKs (in the moors an RK without Icy Discourse is as common as a hunter without RoT) but thank you for clarifying the AotW, that tallies it at 4 freeps that can range slow to 2 creeps.
Not to mention the power level of the slows, in regard to their CD. Hntr and BA prettymuch pretty much balance out. If traited RK and Defiler slow are pretty balanced. But no ones ranged slow compares to LMs burning ember.

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Originally Posted by Megas

And just like creeps, not all freeps carry pocket minstrels, hunters, or runekeepers. It's both ways my friend.

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Yes it does go both ways, to a point. a creep is far more likely to come across one of the 4 mentioned freeps.

You can pot out of a hunter's ranged slow.

Sorry Tip, but I think spiders are more than powerful enough.

Exactly! That starts the DR chain as well. Hunter hits you with ROT, pot. Hunter hits you with fear, no worries one drop of damage and you are ready to go. Deperate hunter gets off that stun... well again any damage and you are good to go.. if not wait three seconds as the DR timer continues to count down.

NO to the OP's request. Move along... nothing to see here. Troll xrossing.

Tydalmir

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Wrong -- Defilers also have a ranged slow. Just because fewer classes have a slow doesn't mean creepside is short of slows. See below.

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I appologize, I was tired when I mentioned only BAs. Defilers have a ranged slow as well. But you are incorrect on the shortage. see below.

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

My apologies, i meant to put slows and not CC. And reavers are immune to every form of CC except one which means they are IMMUNE to all the CC I was refering to. I never said they are immune to CJs which is far less common to happen to a reaver than a freep.

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I understood what you ment before, but I see Reavers getting CJd as often as Champs.

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

My point stands. Not all freeps carry a pocket class that has an effective ranged slow either. I don't think you realize what it means to have a shortage. Pretend EVERY creep class had a ranged slow and EVERY freep class has two ranged slows. No matter if you solo'd or grouped, you'd always have a ranged slow -- but because freeps have twice as many ranged slows, that in no way shape or form means creeps have a shortage of slows because freeps have more.

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Yes, if your basic example was true then there would be no shortage, but it's not true so your point is flawed as probability of coming across at least 1 of the 4 freep classes is higher then 1 of the 2 creep classes

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Originally Posted by Morihei

Yes, if your basic example was true then there would be no shortage, but it's not true so your point is flawed as probability of coming across at least 1 of the 4 freep classes is higher then 1 of the 2 creep classes

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Pretty much any group of creeps I encounter they always have a ranged slow when necessary. It doesn't matter if 1 class has the ranged slow or 5 classes have the ranged slow, I am just going by my experience from playing and how often I encounter creep groups with an effective ranged slow.

Yesterday I was on my RK(lvl 60) and running around with a hunter. We ran into 7 creeps by DG slug pits: 3 BAs, 2 wargs, 2 WLs. Now, it wouldn't of mattered (as far as keeping both of us slowed) if 6 were wargs and 1 was a BA, having 1 BA to slow a target would of been plenty to keep us both from escaping.

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Originally Posted by KillGore81

You can pot out of a hunter's ranged slow.

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creep wound pot removes low cut and strength stance quick shot slows, not just the 1.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Pretty much any group of creeps I encounter they always have a ranged slow when necessary. It doesn't matter if 1 class has the ranged slow or 5 classes have the ranged slow, I am just going by my experience from playing and how often I encounter creep groups with an effective ranged slow.

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I can understand this to be your experience, but my experience differs, as I prefer small group on small group fights over 1v1 or RvR, I quite often find myself to be the only ranged creep in the group.

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Yesterday I was on my RK(lvl 60) and running around with a hunter. We ran into 7 creeps by DG slug pits: 3 BAs, 2 wargs, 2 WLs. Now, it wouldn't of mattered (as far as keeping both of us slowed) if 6 were wargs and 1 was a BA, having 1 BA to slow a target would of been plenty to keep us both from escaping.

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Yeah... this is a bad example if I ever seen one... no matter which side the numbers are on 7vs2 is a slaughter.

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Originally Posted by Thorandril

creep wound pot removes low cut and strength stance quick shot slows, not just the 1.

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yes a wound pot can remove the hunter slow because the pot will only remove the first effect applied (which might not be the slow), the pots have a 30sec CD, the hunter SS quick shot doesnt have a CD so it could be reaplied as fast as it was removed. But hey if ALL slows could be removable using a pot I wouldnt complain.

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Originally Posted by Morihei

I can understand this to be your experience, but my experience differs, as I prefer small group on small group fights over 1v1 or RvR, I quite often find myself to be the only ranged creep in the group.



Yeah... this is a bad example if I ever seen one... no matter which side the numbers are on 7vs2 is a slaughter.

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By only ranged creep do you mean spider or BA? If BA, well you at least have a ranged slow which should be enough. And if spider, hopefully you are R6 and have WtE and the mez, which can definately make up for the lack of ranged slow imo. Sometimes spider >> BA in a small group despite the absence of the ranged slow (which I hope people agree that this means spiders shouldn't have a ranged slow).

Actually, we won that fight. It was mostly blues and maybe 1 sig and 1 green, anywhere from R0-R6. We killed 6 (1 BA was rezzed) and 2 managed to flee. Anything they could do wrong, they did wrong (I think because they noticed it was 7 vs 2, it should of been an easy slaughter and forgot how to play their classes). They definately learned the next time we saw them by HH and wrecked us. My point was tho...even if I started running, a warg could of simply sprinted to catch me, or the BA could of hindered me as the wargs slowed the hunter, even if it was 3 creeps instead of 7. In many situations, groups can do fine without a ranged slow--although I could understand if a LM dropped tar and there wasn't a ranged slow on creepside. But thats the thing about Lotro PvP, different sides have different advantages -- neither is identical or completely superior. They even out fairly well, imo.

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

By only ranged creep do you mean spider or BA? If BA, well you at least have a ranged slow which should be enough. And if spider, hopefully you are R6 and have WtE and the mez, which can definately make up for the lack of ranged slow imo. Sometimes spider >> BA in a small group despite the absence of the ranged slow (which I hope people agree that this means spiders shouldn't have a ranged slow).

Actually, we won that fight. It was mostly blues and maybe 1 sig and 1 green, anywhere from R0-R6. We killed 6 (1 BA was rezzed) and 2 managed to flee. Anything they could do wrong, they did wrong (I think because they noticed it was 7 vs 2, it should of been an easy slaughter and forgot how to play their classes). They definately learned the next time we saw them by HH and wrecked us. My point was tho...even if I started running, a warg could of simply sprinted to catch me, or the BA could of hindered me as the wargs slowed the hunter, even if it was 3 creeps instead of 7. In many situations, groups can do fine without a ranged slow--although I could understand if a LM dropped tar and there wasn't a ranged slow on creepside. But thats the thing about Lotro PvP, different sides have different advantages -- neither is identical or completely superior. They even out fairly well, imo.

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Sorry I didnt clarify, I mostly play my Weaver now and saddly only R4 :(

WtE is a good slow, great in Kite or Flight, but not so good if thier in front of you running away. As for the mez it can be useful until they pop a pot, or if DR is in effect

Heh and to winning the first match of 2vs7 gratz! they had a dumb-a** moment, been there myself.

IMO they balance pretty well in a RvR situation, but not in 1v1 and small group. Don't get me wrong, group makeup has alot to do with it, but you dont alway have a say in who your Kin/tribe are gonna play. I'm sure if my Tribe had a choice I would still be playing my defiler lol.

Freeps are very diverce so almost any class in the group compliment eachother. Creeps... well we got WL Rez :) that is an OP skill right there.

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Originally Posted by ti-pere3

Weaver are CC classe and more range classe than melee. All ranged freeps classe have a ranged slow. I dont understand why weaver dont have one. There could be a choice to make betwin root or slow in traits line or somthing. Put induction on the skill but weaver need it. Spider are the most squishy classe and have poor dps, my auto attack melee is 80 dmg... and i have 3 dmg corruption traits. Root are alwes broken even with stealweave web. It could be usefull if it could be hard to break like the rain of thorn of the hunter ( wich is not a CC but a DPS classe remember )

Im sur some will not agree with me and some will but i had to trow that on the forum its been a long time i was thinking about that and now i say it

Weaver are fun to play but i dont like to see all classe around having a CC skill that as a CC classe i should have .. :(

Wiht all that Diminishing return and pots, root and mez are not usefull as a slow. Its might be not so bad for LM cause they have a lot more and instant cast without needing to face target, but for weaver thats not the case.

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Absolutely Weavers Need A Slow. WTE Is Technically A Slow, And The AoE Insta-Cast Can Make It Very Good In Some Situations. Although It Gives Players A 50% Movement Speed, The Max Duration Of It Is 10 Seconds. Weavers Are Definetly Not A DPS Class And Are Supposed To Play A Similar Role To A Lore Master. A Lore Master Beats A Spider In Just About Every Category. Amount Of CC, DPS, CD's, SI, And Their Slow Lasts For 30 Seconds, With A DoT, And Is Un-Pottable. It Has Around A 5 Second CD Or Less, And Crits Over 1K. So, Adding A Slow To Lethal Kiss And Maybe An Induction Would Be Completely Balanced. Lethal Kiss Is Not A Very Good Skill In Most Situations. The Only Time I Use It Is In A Raid Setting, When I'm Trying To DPS A Called Target. Since It's Common Damage And You Have To Stand Still, It Can Put You In A Vulnerable Position.


Adding An Induction To Lethal Kiss Along With A Slow Would Be Very Similar To A Lore Master's Burning Embers, Not Over Powered.

If they get a 15% morale nerf they can have a slow on a that lasts for 10s on a 30s cd.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous32

If they get a 15% morale nerf they can have a slow on a that lasts for 10s on a 30s cd.

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thanks for the input... or something.

FYI as creeps go weavers are the squishy ones. also creeps have higher health to counter balance the freep dps.

I know they are but if you give them a ranged slow melee classes would be even more gimped against them. As it stands weavers are god against most melee classes the implementation of a ranged slow would only make this advantage even greater. To counter balance they would need a morale reduction.

thats the problem with creeps they want want want but they refuse to give anything up for their demands. This is why we have the unbalanced 10k defiler, *** pwning conjunction owning wargs and pwnface reaver ettenmoors of today.

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Originally Posted by Morihei

Sorry I didnt clarify, I mostly play my Weaver now and saddly only R4 :(

WtE is a good slow, great in Kite or Flight, but not so good if thier in front of you running away. As for the mez it can be useful until they pop a pot, or if DR is in effect

IMO they balance pretty well in a RvR situation, but not in 1v1 and small group. Don't get me wrong, group makeup has alot to do with it, but you dont alway have a say in who your Kin/tribe are gonna play. I'm sure if my Tribe had a choice I would still be playing my defiler lol.

Freeps are very diverce so almost any class in the group compliment eachother. Creeps... well we got WL Rez :) that is an OP skill right there.

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Imo, I thought weavers were one of the best soloers and at r9+ they bring a huge amount to small groups. But none of this seems to matter with this discussion anymore.

The main reason for a slow it still sounds like is because "hey this target is running" so lets look at something for a sec...

If a freep is running - a BA has a ranged slow, wargs have sprint (can be on a 5m cooldown), reavers have charge (cuz if a freep is running it makes sense the reaver can drop combat), Defilers have the ranged slow which isn't the greatest but can be just enough sometimes for this situation. So even tho 2 classes have a ranged slow on creepside, 4 of the 6 classes have a means of catching them and putting a slow on. Will there still be times when freeps get away? yes. But there are just as many times when creeps get away in my experience as well.

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Originally Posted by EmanonCireneg2

Adding An Induction To Lethal Kiss Along With A Slow Would Be Very Similar To A Lore Master's Burning Embers, Not Over Powered.

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I like that, i dont remember what is the % of this slow but i think it last 30 sec. This is preaty strong, lets the big skill to the freeps and juste say we could have a -20% for 20 sec on Letal kiss with induction, that could be good.


And buy the way, creeps could have a legendary trait line, instead of 3 like freeps, they could have at least one.

And i know im off topic on that but a mail box would be veary appreciate! lol should make a nother tread for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Imo, I thought weavers were one of the best soloers and at r9+ they bring a huge amount to small groups. But none of this seems to matter with this discussion anymore.

The main reason for a slow it still sounds like is because "hey this target is running" so lets look at something for a sec...

If a freep is running - a BA has a ranged slow, wargs have sprint (can be on a 5m cooldown), reavers have charge (cuz if a freep is running it makes sense the reaver can drop combat), Defilers have the ranged slow which isn't the greatest but can be just enough sometimes for this situation. So even tho 2 classes have a ranged slow on creepside, 4 of the 6 classes have a means of catching them and putting a slow on. Will there still be times when freeps get away? yes. But there are just as many times when creeps get away in my experience as well.

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Your right, in many situations freeps and creeps will get away. It doesnt change the fact that 4 of 6 creeps can catch and/or put a slow on compared to 8 of 9 freeps can catch and/or put a slow on.

The point of this thread is not "hey this target is running", as I understand it Tiperes first language isn't english, so he might not use the proper wording. Post would have been better named "Weavers should have a ranged slow".

Weavers being THE CC class of creeps don't have one of the basics of CC. WtE is mostly based as a defensive skill, but can be used to kite through in a fight much like LMs tar, but that's it, they dont have any other slows.

Seems like this thread got unnesesarily long just because theres a difference between NEED and WANT.

Personally I would WANT a ranged slow instead of a Root. Why? For the simple fact our own skill work against us. A ranged slow would work so much better togheter with the rest we have in our assortment. Having more things to play with the traits would also be fun, make for more flexible class setups.

But do we NEED it? Nope.

/Silkdawn

Thats true, the title of this tread could be change they dont NEED but would be welcome. And yea enlgish is not my first language, sorry if i cant make my self understand like i would like too.

Thx for people who give they opinioin without geting mad even if they agree or not. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ti-pere3

Thats true, the title of this tread could be change they dont NEED but would be welcome. And yea enlgish is not my first language, sorry if i cant make my self understand like i would like too.

Thx for people who give they opinioin without geting mad even if they agree or not. :)

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Even if you changed the title, I would still disagree with giving weavers a ranged slow. 1. They don't NEED it (which we all agree on). 2. I would not welcome the ranged slow -- and I am not alone with that opinion. 3. It would only make them that much more powerful in a 1vs1 (this is where i think weavers are asking for ezmode comes into play) -- and all the weavers who want the ranged slow seem to ignore that point.

I'd personally change the title to "I play a weaver, here is an ezmode suggestion i'd like to see implemented"

Edit:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Morihei

Weavers being THE CC class of creeps don't have one of the basics of CC. WtE is mostly based as a defensive skill, but can be used to kite through in a fight much like LMs tar, but that's it, they dont have any other slows.

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I wouldn't go as far to say slows are a true form of CC. If you are considering slows the basics of a CC, they do have WtE which is an amazing offensive skill as well -- I never understood why spiders seem to under rate that skill. Is that how you are suppose to argue when you would like to have overpowered skills? Say all your skills are ****** even tho they really aren't?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Even if you changed the title, I would still disagree with giving weavers a ranged slow. 1. They don't NEED it (which we all agree on). 2. I would not welcome the ranged slow -- and I am not alone with that opinion. 3. It would only make them that much more powerful in a 1vs1 (this is where i think weavers are asking for ezmode comes into play) -- and all the weavers who want the ranged slow seem to ignore that point.

I'd personally change the title to "I play a weaver, here is an ezmode suggestion i'd like to see implemented"

Edit:

I wouldn't go as far to say slows are a true form of CC. If you are considering slows the basics of a CC, they do have WtE which is an amazing offensive skill as well -- I never understood why spiders seem to under rate that skill. Is that how you are suppose to argue when you would like to have overpowered skills? Say all your skills are ****** even tho they really aren't?

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Some would say that slows are the most powerful form of CC because many slows can be applied at range, spammed, don't break on damage, last much longer than a typical root/mez/stun, and may be harder to dispel.

This may be outdated a bit, but here is a summary I found of freep 'snares' or slows as well as overall CC in general

http://www.dyfrin.com/lotro/freepcc.htm

and creep as well

http://www.dyfrin.com/lotro/creepcc.htm


all I can say is that the difference between the number of snares, magnitude of the snares, and duration of the snares is significant.

It would seem to support an addition to a creepside enhancement to that front, and giving a ranged snare to the cc class of creeps would also make logical sense....from a faction standpoint. On a class specific standpoint, i understand it gets much trickier.

So, lets start with would it be fair for a single target ranged snare, say of somewhere between 20-30% to be added to creepside be a fair consideration?

Then what class should get it

Then how should it look (which would be highly dependent on what creep class got the ranged snare)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Even if you changed the title, I would still disagree with giving weavers a ranged slow. 1. They don't NEED it (which we all agree on). 2. I would not welcome the ranged slow -- and I am not alone with that opinion. 3. It would only make them that much more powerful in a 1vs1 (this is where i think weavers are asking for ezmode comes into play) -- and all the weavers who want the ranged slow seem to ignore that point.

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Of course you would disagree. thats what you do. 1. your focused on the Need, Hunters didnt Need a mez, but got one anyways, Freeps didnt need another glass cannon, but got one anyways. 2. I would welcome the ranged slow -- and I'm not alone with that opinion. 3. It wouldnt change 1v1 much except that weavers could range slow against ranged opponents that can already slow them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

I'd personally change the title to "I play a weaver, here is an ezmode suggestion i'd like to see implemented"

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And youd still have it titled wrong, it should be "I play a weaver, here is a suggestion to be almost as ezmode as a LM".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

I wouldn't go as far to say slows are a true form of CC. If you are considering slows the basics of a CC, they do have WtE which is an amazing offensive skill as well -- I never understood why spiders seem to under rate that skill. Is that how you are suppose to argue when you would like to have overpowered skills? Say all your skills are ****** even tho they really aren't?

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Any skill or ability that inhibits or removes control from a player is crowd control. and if you had even bothered to comprehend anything written previous, No One disputed WtE being a powerful offensive skill, is that how you make an argument, by claiming everyone is saying something their not. Note, no one asked for an OP skill, just a ranged slow for the ranged CC class.

Simple fact is from day 1 Freeps have had superior CC in every way and any mention of adding any thing to creeps or buffing something they already have sends forum trolls into a frenzie.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Morihei

yada yada yada

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I expect things to be semi-balance. I don't expect turbine to balance skills/classes based off of the worst people playing the class and the best people being their opponents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Morihei

It wouldnt change 1v1 much except that weavers could range slow against ranged opponents that can already slow them.

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lol..........

The single most overpowered creep class in 1v1 is asking for more...

l2p OP

Dont forget that this game is not a 1vs1 fight club. If i have to fight a single freep i will, but a lot of time im gething roled by raid or groupe or burgs what ever.

I dont want the weaver to be OP, i would like to have more flexibility in traits line thats could give more different build and weaver should have a Ranged slow like the LM.
And for WTE i dont mind if they change it juste like the LM IMO the Tar is bether than WTE. It last longer and it can be more usefull for tactical use on certain batle field.

WTE last 10 sec... dont forget that this is veary short duration. As a squishy target i dont think im doing well to run in freeps raid to put WTE .. its is juste an escape skill nothing more.
A ranged slow could add a good form of CC for the weaver in raid fight.

In raid fight most spider do is TK, LK, toxin, clining and entangling web, this are single target debuf and ranged attack, LM can AOE debuff the creeps and can AOE dmg them, instant AOE root, ranged stunt and juste dont need to face target!
How a weaver can be OP compared to a good played LM?

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Originally Posted by ti-pere3

i would like to have more flexibility in traits line thats could give more different build

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So would all creeps.

Anyway, good spiders will wreck any freep class 1v1 (close against warden, though), especially at such a high rank as you.

You can have a range slow if webbing is turning into LM tar

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Originally Posted by Brongdha

So would all creeps.

Anyway, good spiders will wreck any freep class 1v1 (close against warden, though), especially at such a high rank as you.

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cbr champs, assuming they are good, are competitive with high ranked weavers

LOL

/10chars

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Originally Posted by ti-pere3

yada yada yada

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Why are you playing a spider? Sounds like you should take the time to level a LM. That seems to have everything you could possibly want.

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Why are you playing a spider? Sounds like you should take the time to level a LM. That seems to have everything you could possibly want.

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This is an old thing when it comes to CC. Spiders are supposed to be the CC class on the Creep side, but most spiders feels the CC is rather weak in comparison with especially other Freep classes. Today I would even argue Wargs are a better CC class than a Spider.

Our two ranged CC (30 sec CD) is effectively messed up by our own DoT damage mechanic. Not to mention Born of Shadows (racial rank 6) will break our own roots if the rooted target is using any ranged attack (heck even little hobbit burglars could throw a pebble at us and it would break the root, lol.)

Web the Earth is definatly a good skill, but it shouldnt be raised to some godlike status. It lasts for 10 seconds while sprints last 2 to 4.5 times longer. Not to mention some sprints totally negates the effect of the web. Its also neither the strongest slow or the longest lasting. What speaks for it is the area if anything, but the rest is mediocre in comparison to other slows. Its also not a ranged slow. I can agree the visual representation of the skill should show the actual area however.

Smoothering Web (5 min CD). Our only conjunction, is an induction melee skill. Some argue it has to large range, but considering its an induction skill I think the 10m range is where it should be. Remember, the skill wont go off if the target gets outside that range or out of the front arc when the induction is up. This skill is rather tricky to get off in a dancing fight or on sprinting enemies or just enemies moving around at all. I think its fine for such a strong skill tho, but dont make it sound like something its not.

Latent Poison (1 min CD). Our only stun is a melee applied skill, unlike Smoothering Web its instant tho. Can be resisted upon application and when its supposed to trigger the stun. Meanwhile it can be potted or using a skill to cleanse it. This skill doesnt stack either and overwrites other LPs on the target, effectively reseting the timer which means it can be resisted or cleansed again. The only reason spiders like this skill is because its actually the ONLY decent CC we have (a stun) that our DoTs wont break and can be applied decently often, unlike Smoothering Web.

Hatchlings slow. Is now gone.


Now that was it. Not so impressive really is it? Theres at least 3 Freep classes with more, better and/or stronger CC than a Spider. Take the new Warg CJ spam and I would say a spider is down at place 5 on the toplist when it comes to CC. Kinda low position for a class thats supposed to have the CC role dont you think?

Once again, Im not arguing for anything more for the Spiders at the moment. I finally think spiders are on par with most other classes. Not better not worse, just in the middle where they belong and should be.

/Silkdawn

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Originally Posted by Perfectlotus

Once again, Im not arguing for anything more for the Spiders at the moment. I finally think spiders are on par with most other classes. Not better not worse, just in the middle where they belong and should be.

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I disagree. I feel like we're one of the strongest classes on either side of the game right now.

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Originally Posted by Jamers

I disagree. I feel like we're one of the strongest classes on either side of the game right now.

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You base this completly on 1vs1, which comes as no surprise because this is nothing new, weve always been a good 1vs1 class. Nothing have really changed there since Book 13 before MoM.

What have changed is that you dont need to be a machocist the first 6 ranks to play a Spider. I forgive you for not thinking about other players than yourself, but this is a very important step in the Spider development. Also something weve been arguing about forever and now all of a sudden many older Spiders think its over the top. Totally forgetting that they themselfs learnt to play the class under the most harshest conditions and thoose that actually had the patience and enough bandaids to pull that off actually became one of the best out there while the rest abandoned the spider several ranks ago. I think it has more to do with about feeling special and unique than anything else and thoose older Spiders dont really like how many new Spiders now have a chance to actually play on par with what the older Spiders consider their precious own unique class. Feeling like they somehow should be alone with it because it was so much harder when they was ranking up. That mentality is low and dark to say the least.

/Silkdawn

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Originally Posted by Perfectlotus

You base this completly on 1vs1, which comes as no surprise because this is nothing new, weve always been a good 1vs1 class. Nothing have really changed there since Book 13 before MoM.

What have changed is that you dont need to be a machocist the first 6 ranks to play a Spider. I forgive you for not thinking about other players than yourself, but this is a very important step in the Spider development. Also something weve been arguing about forever and now all of a sudden many older Spiders think its over the top. Totally forgetting that they themselfs learnt to play the class under the most harshest conditions and thoose that actually had the patience and enough bandaids to pull that off actually became one of the best out there while the rest abandoned the spider several ranks ago. I think it has more to do with about feeling special and unique than anything else and thoose older Spiders dont really like how many new Spiders now have a chance to actually play on par with what the older Spiders consider their precious own unique class. Feeling like they somehow should be alone with it because it was so much harder when they was ranking up. That mentality is low and dark to say the least.

/Silkdawn

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You attribute a lot of sentiments to my statement that simply aren't there, Silkdawn. I'm glad the class has gotten buffed. We started at a very disadvantaged place, and I'm glad that new spiders don't have the same uphill struggle that we once had.

However, right now the class is really, really powerful. Rank 6 isn't very difficult to get at 30,000+ infamy. Even at rank 5 we're very powerful. True, we don't have Hatchlings yet, but Web the Earth is one of the more powerful slows in the game.

Furthermore, I'm not basing this solely on 1v1s, though that certainly factors into it. I can stand in the back of a raid and 'spam' Tainted Kiss and our ranged power drain on numerous freeps, debuff key targets, use my crowd control to prevent targets from getting away long enough for them to be offed, and if I feel like getting a little closer to the action, slow down entire raids with Web the Earth.

We're a very, very powerful and able class. I've played a lot of classes on both sides, and I'm not sure I could select a more powerful one. Wargs and Reavers, while 1v1 kings, suffer somewhat in larger fights from having to close to melee. Blackarrows suffer in 1v1s. WLs and Defilers are very strong classes, but are far more group oriented and typically only win 1v1 fights through attrition.

We're a VERY unique class in that we're a mix of melee and ranged, and can function well in all scenarios.

In the end, I don't think the Weaver class needs anything. Which is why I'm posting in this thread. Tip wants something else added to the class, which I just see as unnecessary, and frankly, too powerful.

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Originally Posted by Jamers

You attribute a lot of sentiments to my statement that simply aren't there, Silkdawn. I'm glad the class has gotten buffed. We started at a very disadvantaged place, and I'm glad that new spiders don't have the same uphill struggle that we once had.

However, right now the class is really, really powerful. Rank 6 isn't very difficult to get at 30,000+ infamy. Even at rank 5 we're very powerful. True, we don't have Hatchlings yet, but Web the Earth is one of the more powerful slows in the game.

Furthermore, I'm not basing this solely on 1v1s, though that certainly factors into it. I can stand in the back of a raid and 'spam' Tainted Kiss and our ranged power drain on numerous freeps, debuff key targets, use my crowd control to prevent targets from getting away long enough for them to be offed, and if I feel like getting a little closer to the action, slow down entire raids with Web the Earth.

We're a very, very powerful and able class. I've played a lot of classes on both sides, and I'm not sure I could select a more powerful one. Wargs and Reavers, while 1v1 kings, suffer somewhat in larger fights from having to close to melee. Blackarrows suffer in 1v1s. WLs and Defilers are very strong classes, but are far more group oriented and typically only win 1v1 fights through attrition.

We're a VERY unique class in that we're a mix of melee and ranged, and can function well in all scenarios.

In the end, I don't think the Weaver class needs anything. Which is why I'm posting in this thread. Tip wants something else added to the class, which I just see as unnecessary, and frankly, too powerful.

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Well in short we are agreeing with each other then. The big change imo is that the TK has got a boost (which is probably the biggest reason young spiders have it easier these days.) The rest have been available to us before.

/Silkdawn

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Originally Posted by Perfectlotus

Once again, Im not arguing for anything more for the Spiders at the moment. I finally think spiders are on par with most other classes. Not better not worse, just in the middle where they belong and should be.

/Silkdawn

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You agree that spiders are fine where they are at but you'd rather make them even more powerful by giving them more CC that they don't need?(and shouldn't have in my opinion)

Until you spiders stop shouting "GIVE ME EZMODE" there is no point even having a debate.

At least the OP was willing to give up something for a slow -- which has the possibility of being reasonable.

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

You agree that spiders are fine where they are at but you'd rather make them even more powerful by giving them more CC that they don't need?(and shouldn't have in my opinion)

Until you spiders stop shouting "GIVE ME EZMODE" there is no point even having a debate.

At least the OP was willing to give up something for a slow -- which has the possibility of being reasonable.

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Are you for real? Did you even read my post, well if you did you certainly didnt understood it, but that comes as no surprise to me.

/Silkdawn

WTE and Tar should both be removed from the ettenmoors - Or reduced to 10-15% reduced run speed

What blows my mind is that a R10 spider is suggesting this, the rank at which you get a skill that resets your CC similar to call of the valar. hah. On a defeat response no less.

"Hm, should I heal for 2.2k or reset CC?" *ponder*

Yes weavers need a ranged slow.

Replace the pathetic r11 weaver trait (-5s CD on Latent) to make lethal kiss give a 15% 10s slow.

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Originally Posted by Thorandril

What blows my mind is that a R10 spider is suggesting this, the rank at which you get a skill that resets your CC similar to call of the valar. hah. On a defeat response no less.

"Hm, should I heal for 2.2k or reset CC?" *ponder*

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The skill requires a class trait to be slotted. I don't use it, as I don't really find it useful, so I don't slot the trait and I don't have access to use the skill. W/DR resetting my CD is very limited in use, especially because the CC that gets reset is the short webs (30s cd) and mez IIRC. If it reset Smothering, I'd consider slotting it, but afaik it doesn't reset SW.

I'm not sure if any rank 10 weaver uses the skill, because it burns a trait slot.

This R10 skill you are talking about is real joke. It give power and reset the cooldown of latent poison wich is 45 sec i think. and work afther 15 sec. 10 stunt immunity and if you use it again ( concidering you didnt use a mez) it will be 5 seconde stunt instead of 10 at the end of a nother long 15 sec. And will be 3 seconde stunt and can be 1 seconde stunt with the diminishing return if a mez as been used, i dont know if root count too but i think so.

For a R10 traits, this is realy sheap and kind of useless, i dont use it, i have tryed it and its really bad. I know other R10 spider that agree with me.

Now i juste got the R11 and again, not much of a godlike skill out there, i didnt have tryed it i ranked late yesterday night, i will try it do day afther work. But its a 5 seconde reduction on latent poison timer and i got a trait that give +300 moral and power regen in combat, this one looks not bad.

So you got R10 and R11 that are a pain to acomplish without having a good skill, what about a trait that add a slow to Létal kiss? IMO this would make sence for a hight ranked spider to have skill like that as a CC classe...

EDIT: afther looking at it, R10 and R11 are most a buff for latent poison that work in melee. I should try to buff this skill to try it and see what appen if i work more in melee. But i think i will get kill realy quick, having a R11 squishy spider runing around champs lol Anny way il give it a try. Maybe debufing dps for moral.

I'm still not sure why you need a ranged slow. I also play a weaver thats almost rank 6. At rank 5 you get the 10% speed racial (in and out of combat) and can boost that up even more with DoF pots and DP run buff to around +30%? runspeed (out of combat). You start out with Snaring Web, you also get Web the Earth at rank 5, and at rank 7 Catch Prey(!)... Plus Tainted Kiss can be used on the run and has a cooldown of only 6s. I'm pretty sure the devs are aware of that fact. I've killed a few wounded freeps trying to get away using just this attack.

What seems more important to me, however, and a major consideration of your argument for a ranged slow are the circumstances of who, what, and when you're fighting. I mean you're not going to burn down a heavy armor class or a freep at full health this way just by running and gunning. Unless your oppenent has already taken damage from fighting and is about to die and tries to flee from you, you don't really have to catch them just keep firing on them with TK and finish the job (at +10% runspeed, you'll eventually close the distance). If its a class with a runspeed skill (most heavy armor classes do) there's a good chance he'll get away anyway ignoring any slows put on him. Depending on how many DoTs they already have on them Snaring Web won't really help at all. Snaring Web is really an opening move. Basically, if they choose to disengage from the fight and they're too far to get hit there isn't really much you can do at all. What you'll need then... is something that'll make you run faster than +10% in-combat, but it makes no sense since you're already traited for faster movement. TK doesn't need a slow component because its meant to be used in conjunction with your racial movement trait. A ranked up spider has no less than 4 skills in addition to the racial movement trait he/she can use to hinder her prey... my BA only has 1. :o

The thing is I'm arguing from a raid vs raid point of view, not 1v1. In RvR if we want to slow something we have to run up to it and drop webs. For a squishy spider, that usually means death. Having a ranged slow would be a nice addition, even at a high rank.

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Originally Posted by ti-pere3

But i think i will get kill realy quick, having a R11 squishy spider runing around champs lol Anny way il give it a try. Maybe debufing dps for moral.

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Originally Posted by BrotherGab

The thing is I'm arguing from a raid vs raid point of view, not 1v1. In RvR if we want to slow something we have to run up to it and drop webs. For a squishy spider, that usually means death. Having a ranged slow would be a nice addition, even at a high rank.

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Squishy? You guys have got to be kidding. I've seen this argument thrown around quite a bit, and I'm not sure what predicates it. Because we look squishy?

Let me throw around some numbers for everyone to think upon.

My Weaver has 4,705 Armour rating with the Armour Boost trait.

Block...5%
Evade...8%
Parry...6.7% (With the rank 5 Racial trait)
Total...19.7%

4.7% Critical Protection across the board with the Critical Protection Boost 2 trait.

And oh yeah, I have just over 6,000 morale with a DPS build. If I go for full morale, like many do?
7,311 Morale.

My 65 Champion with full Radiance gear? A heavy armour class?

I have 4,301 Armour. That's right, Weavers have MORE ARMOUR THAN A HEAVY FREEP.

Oh, and I have zero BPE in my Damage stance, Fervour. If I drop out of Fervour or use CDs to gain PE (I can't gain Block unless I use a shield, which severely hampers my DPS)...
Parry...9.5%
Evade...8.5%
Total...18%

And my Critical Defenses? 0 across the board.

So let's break it down. Weavers have BETTER Armour, BETTER avoidances, BETTER crit defenses, and MORE morale than a Heavy Armored freep who HAS to be in melee range.

Give me a break guys. We have it so amazingly great right now. I'm shocked that any ranked spider is complaining.

Sorry but I wish my spider could hit for 3k like my champ. 2k is more often, my champ crits plenty. Or have mass AoE's.

Don't compare classes, there are NO mirror classes in LOTRO. If you want them, go to Warhammer.

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Originally Posted by BrotherGab

Sorry but I wish my spider could hit for 3k like my champ. 2k is more often, my champ crits plenty. Or have mass AoE's.

Don't compare classes, there are NO mirror classes in LOTRO. If you want them, go to Warhammer.

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That's a different argument. You claimed Weavers are squishy. The numbers simply don't support that claim.

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Originally Posted by BrotherGab

Sorry but I wish my spider could hit for 3k like my champ. 2k is more often, my champ crits plenty. Or have mass AoE's.

Don't compare classes, there are NO mirror classes in LOTRO. If you want them, go to Warhammer.

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Just so you know...Bashel is one of the most experienced bugs on Landy...AND one of the better Champs I know.

In fact I'd be willing to bet there isn't someone who knows the dynamics of both of those classes any better than he does.

And your talk of dev hits from your champ shows how little you know about Champs in the moors currently. Any creep not traiting against crits is a fool, and our crit, let alone our dev, chances are very VERY low vs an even slightly ranked creep.

Look, I'm not one of those claiming that creeps are way overpowered and boo hoo for freeps. Frankly I feel the balance between creeps and freeps is closer than ever.

But the claims that a bug needs ANY more skills, in particular a ranged snare when their movement is already faster than freep movement, is just silly. A well played bug can kite just fine as it is. And one that can't needs to go practice more. If you're talking exclusively from a raid level design then I'd suggest bugs have far more important things to do than snare from range in 99% of raid level engagements.

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Originally Posted by Thane9

Just so you know...Bashel is one of the most experienced bugs on Landy...AND one of the better Champs I know.

In fact I'd be willing to bet there isn't someone who knows the dynamics of both of those classes any better than he does.

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I'd bet he knows the champ a lot better that I do, I run raids on my champ, and look for 1v1's pretty much it. But I know the weaver class inside out. I doubt Bashel knows more about it that me.

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Originally Posted by Thane9

And your talk of dev hits from your champ shows how little you know about Champs in the moors currently. Any creep not traiting against crits is a fool, and our crit, let alone our dev, chances are very VERY low vs an even slightly ranked creep.

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Creeps on my server don't bother. I counted at least 40 RS strike crits today in 3 hours of PvP. That was plenty for the small group action we had running.

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Originally Posted by Thane9

Look, I'm not one of those claiming that creeps are way overpowered and boo hoo for freeps. Frankly I feel the balance between creeps and freeps is closer than ever.

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Agreed

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Originally Posted by Thane9

But the claims that a bug needs ANY more skills, in particular a ranged snare when their movement is already faster than freep movement, is just silly. A well played bug can kite just fine as it is. And one that can't needs to go practice more. If you're talking exclusively from a raid level design then I'd suggest bugs have far more important things to do than snare from range in 99% of raid level engagements.

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Next book creeps are going to need everything they can get :)