Seriously considering a warden but a few questions.

When I ask in game it is not clear what a wardens role actually is, I understand it is tanking but I hear groups wont let wardens tank?

Anyways I want a class that will invite me to groups often from 20 and up, I want to be able to atleast fill more then one role. If anyone here has played eq2 could you tell me if the warden feels anything like a monk in the group? The monks in eq2 where fast very fast attackers, could tank, offheal and of course dps.

Are wardens actually fun in groups?

And lorewise where do there abilities come from? They are very flashy and look almost magical, and do you get allot of flashy melee attacks?

Lots of questions I know, but im tired of trying characters ive pretty much narrowed it down to burglar, warden, and loremaster possibly a minstrel.

I dropped my captain he has my favorite playstyle but I hated his melee style I do not like slow 2hander weapon types.

Thank you everyone.

I had no problem finding tanking jobs with my Warden.

They take longer to decide, though, presumably looking at your gear and your equipped traits. They don't want to die horrible deaths after entering the dungeon, you know? :)

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Originally Posted by angelbound

When I ask in game it is not clear what a wardens role actually is, I understand it is tanking but I hear groups wont let wardens tank?

Anyways I want a class that will invite me to groups often from 20 and up, I want to be able to atleast fill more then one role. If anyone here has played eq2 could you tell me if the warden feels anything like a monk in the group? The monks in eq2 where fast very fast attackers, could tank, offheal and of course dps.

Are wardens actually fun in groups?

And lorewise where do there abilities come from? They are very flashy and look almost magical, and do you get allot of flashy melee attacks?

Lots of questions I know, but im tired of trying characters ive pretty much narrowed it down to burglar, warden, and loremaster possibly a minstrel.

I dropped my captain he has my favorite playstyle but I hated his melee style I do not like slow 2hander weapon types.

Thank you everyone.

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This will be quick because the new House is on in like 5 minutes. :P

Getting a job tanking as a Warden isn't nearly so hard as it used to be. People have warmed to it. There are a lot of bad Wardens, but you're already on your way to become a good one by being here. Be sure to read the sticky. If you roll a new character, I suggest doing it on Riddermark as there is a warden chat channel and an all warden kin with some of the top wardens from various servers that have decided to start over and are happy to give advice.

At 20ish, tanking is a little harder, but it's doable. You'll rely mostly on Precise Blow (fist, spear). If there's a guard, let him tank. Our DPS is still pretty substantial at level 20, so you can fill that role until you get closer to the cap.

Wardens are a blast to play as group tanks if you like having to think on your feet. If you are good at it, it's spectacular how you can save the group's behind at times. If you're bad at it, it's extremely painful though. It takes some research and some practice, but it's not that hard once you get used to it.

I'll let others speak to the lore. It's not really my thing. I know we're ostensibly based on some elf or another, but realistically, we have more in common with Spartans.... :rolleyes:

For sparta! Hehe anyways, I don't know if thats anything like the eq2 monk I had. Also for a warden if I decide to play it, should I roll an elf for the extra stealth? In what way does it help? And how do elf animations look with the spear/jav combo?

None are "magical". They just have nice effects. Shield up or Defiant Challenge or Impressive Flourish all have flashy effects, but basically, you're either hitting, demoralizing, or infuriating your enemies or inspiring yourself or your fellows. Nothing is really "magical" although the RK's effects sure damned look like it.

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Originally Posted by angelbound

For sparta! Hehe anyways, I don't know if thats anything like the eq2 monk I had. Also for a warden if I decide to play it, should I roll an elf for the extra stealth? In what way does it help? And how do elf animations look with the spear/jav combo?

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I can't really speak to the Elf animations (or to EQ2), but I assume they are as good as any other race. The art team is generally pretty good here imho, though I usually play zoomed out anyway. :)

Race is a much debated thing. The general consensus is that Man is the best if you are a number cruncher, (but it's not by enough to make or break you), but Hobbits and Elves have stealth which can be useful for avoiding trash mobs in some places. Race is a fairly minor choice as far as numbers go. Here's a quick breakdown of the main, non-cosmetic points: (all of these require a racial trait slot unless noted as passive)

Elf:
Stealth with a half-hour cooldown
Big, very useful parry buff with an hour cooldown
+2% damage with swords

Hobbit:
Stealth with a half-hour cooldown
Feign Death with an hour cooldown
+2% damage with clubs (probably slightly less useful than swords)

Man:
+5% incoming healing PASSIVE (no trait need be slotted)
Large heal on an hour cooldown (less useful the more morale you have, but not trivial at 65)
+~.5% each to block, parry and evade (depending on current ratings)
+2% damage with swords

The reason Man is generally considered the best is because we heal ourselves so much and we tank, so that 5% gets applied much more often than it would be for any other class. Still, it's not like anyone is going to turn you down as a tank because you're the "wrong" race. Though I might avoid you if you roll a hobbit. They have small hands and smell of cabbage.

Actually runekeepers and loremasters are magical regardless the elves themselves are part of magic, they can feel bad things around them they are empathic.

But flames coming out of your shield come on dude seriously, lore wise it does not make sense if he can simply do it, so the question is where does it come from?

On a side not. I will try both.

Now for the name I am thinking maybe something like vonyan would make sense for a warden or Valehk something along those lines what do you think?

I am assuming that wardens are swift and strong so something inbetween.

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Originally Posted by angelbound

Actually runekeepers and loremasters are magical regardless the elves themselves are part of magic, they can feel bad things around them they are empathic.

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Well, what we'd call magic and what is called magic in Middle-earth are different. Magic in ME is (generally) sorcery, the black arts of the Enemy. The abilities used by Gandalf and the other Wizards aren't even properly magic - Gandalf and the Wizards are angels inhabiting human bodies, so it's more displays of demi-godly power than anything like "magic." Empathic abilities seem to just be inherent in Elves, along with foresight in the higher kindreds of Elves and Men (the Dunedain/Numenoreans). This isn't magic, but a gift of the kindred. You couldn't teach it, as you can teach sorcery.

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But flames coming out of your shield come on dude seriously, lore wise it does not make sense if he can simply do it, so the question is where does it come from?

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That's all just effects. It'd be pretty boring (and lacking in visual feedback) if your gambits didn't do anything but trigger the little icon under your character. Just wait til you get Shield Mastery - nobody thinks that by crouching, you're causing an electrically-charged bubble to surround yourself. Just there to show visually that you successfully performed the gambit. I mean, Burglars using Gamble skills have giant dice appear above the enemy's head. I doubt that's meant literally either.

Well people do not seem to mind who get upset about lore breaking, angels or not its a form of energy that use that is in turn magic I did not know they where angels in the bodys though that is very interesting friend, I will have to read lotr someday.

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Originally Posted by angelbound

Well people do not seem to mind who get upset about lore breaking, angels or not its a form of energy that use that is in turn magic I did not know they where angels in the bodys though that is very interesting friend, I will have to read lotr someday.

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Yeah, you really should. Here are literally all of the "spells" (that I remember, I could have missed one) which actually happens "on screen":

1. Gandalf makes the tip of his staff light up in Moria so they can see.

2. Gandalf gives a rousing speech to the Steward of Gondor which cures him of the stupor Wormwood had him under.

And next to Sauron, Gandalf is probably the most powerful wizard that ever lived (though I'm not a lore person, so I could be wrong on this too). Magic is just not a major focus in the setting, which is why people went so ballistic when the runekeeper was introduced.

All of the Warden's animations such as a boar rushing out of you or a glowy trail behind your weapon are graphics FX only for the player. They aren't actually happening in the world.

But other players can see it, that is part of the world in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by angelbound

But other players can see it, that is part of the world in my opinion.

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There is a lot of stuff that the players can see that the characters can't such as Hope/Dread, morale levels, target indicators, toolbars, character sheets, item stats, etc., etc., etc. The graphics when a gambit is executed is exactly like that other stuff. The term "world" is a bit ambiguous, but none of the aforementioned things are part of the setting.

Well I still stick to my opinion friend im sorry.

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Originally Posted by angelbound

Well I still stick to my opinion friend im sorry.

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Haha. It makes no difference to me. Just don't expect too many people to agree with you, especially those who've been around long enough to see the official lore-monkey Berephron try to do his tapdance to justify Runekeepers. ;)

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Originally Posted by tanis0

And next to Sauron, Gandalf is probably the most powerful wizard that ever lived (though I'm not a lore person, so I could be wrong on this too).

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IANALM (I am not a lore monkey), but I recall a discussion in glff about magic in LoTR in which a lore monkey said that Gandalf eschewed the overt use of his powers because using his powers would allow Sauron to locate him. That is why the few times Gandalf uses magic are of the subtle variety, as you listed, or are done when the Enemy has already located him, as in the battle on Weathertop.

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Originally Posted by Jaltir

IANALM (I am not a lore monkey), but I recall a discussion in glff about magic in LoTR in which a lore monkey said that Gandalf eschewed the overt use of his powers because using his powers would allow Sauron to locate him. That is why the few times Gandalf uses magic are of the subtle variety, as you listed, or are done when the Enemy has already located him, as in the battle on Weathertop.

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Fair enough, but that only reinforces the point that there aren't people casting magic left and right in Middle Earth. If they were, why would Gandalf have to be so discreet? He could just blend in with all the other spellcasters. :)

I think I'll PM Bereph and see if we can get an official answer. If I can figure out how in this new setup, anyway. ;)

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Originally Posted by tanis0

2. Gandalf gives a rousing speech to the King of Rohan which cures him of the stupor Wormtongue had him under.

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FIFY.

magic in middle earth is a confusing thing, as Galadriel puts it, Hobbits would refer to magic as the works of Sauron as much as things like her mirror. but everything in-game isn't magic, it's, at best, manipulation of nature or words (I'm refering to the two classes most obviously "magical"). both of which have a force of their own in the world of Middle-earth. what you see on your screen is usually nothing more then eye candy, I mean, the Lore-master has a skill where he has a "battle of minds" with the enemy which is a short term stun, during that skill a purple beam hits the mob, now, the animation could conclude with the LM just pointing his hand at the mob, but it doesn't, why? because we like seeing what we do, we like getting some kind of reward. the same is true of RK skills, they aren't actuall using fire/lightning/frost when they attack, they are using words of power that in Middle-earth have real power and effect, the flames that we see are just a visual aid, because there is no real reason for having flames dance around a mob, it's not actually happening in the game world.

Epic derail, guys. Cookys all around.

The effects for the Warden's skills are just that, FX. (I play with all FX turned off, so I hardly ever notice any.) They are purely for those who desire flashiness. Nothing magical implied.

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Originally Posted by Berephon

The effects for the Warden's skills are just that, FX. (I play with all FX turned off, so I hardly ever notice any.) They are purely for those who desire flashiness. Nothing magical implied.

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Sort of like lightning shooting from RK fingertips. Not sure why people treat that differently than a glowing forcefield bubble around a Warden. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by gildhur

Sort of like lightning shooting from RK fingertips. Not sure why people treat that differently than a glowing forcefield bubble around a Warden. :rolleyes:

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because RKs are from the dark side, Wardens are clearly Jedi.

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Originally Posted by gildhur

Sort of like lightning shooting from RK fingertips. Not sure why people treat that differently than a glowing forcefield bubble around a Warden. :rolleyes:

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Possibly because of the associated sound effect. It makes the 'FX' really intrusive and hard to ignore.

The lightning coming from there fingertips thing you are very right, that is what I have been saying all along, I am sorry but saying that the fx is a fact does not make it a fact, this is not a good enough answer it is illogical in general therefor people who can accept the pretty light magic looking shield on a warden have no right to complain about magic from loremasters or runekeepers have a nice day.

There is a major differance between the champions sword graphic animations and fire coming out of the shield that is not just an fx that is an element.

So gandald to hide his powers, now that actually makes sense, therefor lotro can probably have more magic then it shows. And I am not really trying to justify runekeepers but what he said clearly does justify it in so many ways, and all I was saying its kind of silly you guys can accept warden animations but not runekeeper wow.

Cant honestly see a reason other than performance issues to turn of extra effects.

I didnt buy an expensive graphics card and system to play games just to turn off effects. Certainly not if I pay a monthly fee... I want everything! All the frills for me please.. it does enhance my enjoyment.

If I cant have absolutly everything on in the highest resoloution then.. well, time to look at an upgrade :D :D.... Which for me next is an SSD ;)

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Originally Posted by angelbound

So gandald to hide his powers, now that actually makes sense, therefor lotro can probably have more magic then it shows. And I am not really trying to justify runekeepers but what he said clearly does justify it in so many ways, and all I was saying its kind of silly you guys can accept warden animations but not runekeeper wow.

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call it magic all you want but it's not, even RK "magic" isn't officially that, RKs use the power of words that can have very real effects in Middle-Earth (this is true in lore), the rationale is that RKs aren't actually throwing flames and zapping things with lighting, they are using the power of words to cause the damaging effects of fire and lightning. the fact that the game shows you firing lightning bolts from your finger tips doesn't mean that if the game world was real it would actually show that happening. Humans like getting a reward for what they do, in this case it's a visual confirmation of what you just did, it's not actual magic, it's a very impressive light show. try playing the game without the added VFX and tell me how interesting it is to see a RK play, for most people it would it would be a big disapointment, Turbine could have had no VFX placed, but then the class would be pretty boring, just inductions and hand movements, fun? not so much for the vasy majority.

you can also call the Shield Up and Shield Mastery bubble magic, but it's not, it's just visual confirmation for YOU, it serves no purpose in game, in fact it would probably be better for the game not to use the animation as it requires more effort out designers, progamers and your computer.

you can call it magic all you like but the fact is that it isn't, it's a fancy light show for your benefit, much like fireworks on the 4th of July, would the date not be special even without all the pageantry and fireworks displays? of course it would, it's a very important date for world history in general, fireworks just make it look nice.

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Originally Posted by Berephon

The effects for the Warden's skills are just that, FX. (I play with all FX turned off, so I hardly ever notice any.) They are purely for those who desire flashiness. Nothing magical implied.

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Wait? You can turn off all 'magicy' effects? How do we do that? Seriously, did I miss that option somewhere?

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Originally Posted by henry316

Wait? You can turn off all 'magicy' effects? How do we do that? Seriously, did I miss that option somewhere?

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Combat Particle Effects under either UI or Combat settings, I forget which.

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Originally Posted by angelbound

So gandald to hide his powers, now that actually makes sense, therefor lotro can probably have more magic then it shows. And I am not really trying to justify runekeepers but what he said clearly does justify it in so many ways, and all I was saying its kind of silly you guys can accept warden animations but not runekeeper wow.

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The dark powers of English are at work here, we must be cautious.

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Originally Posted by henry316

Wait? You can turn off all 'magicy' effects? How do we do that? Seriously, did I miss that option somewhere?

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Options -> UI -> Combat Effects. It'll turn off pretty much ALL player skill visual effects, so all you'll see is the character's body moving. It's pretty helpful for reducing visual lag if nothing else.

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Originally Posted by lf2536

FIFY.

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Thanks. It's been a while since I read the books and I've always been awful with names, places and dates.

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Originally Posted by lf2536

because RKs are from the dark side, Wardens are clearly Jedi.

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Don't let Jeedai hear you say that. :D

The f/x are just visual embellishments in order to spice up the action. LOTRO is based on novels, right? Let's say a writer pens something like:

"Then the young warden thrust his shield forward with all the power of a charging boar, knocking his opponent to the ground."

That sounds pretty awesome, so how would one convey that in a video game? Just have text appear stating what transpired when the skill was used? What is to separate the simple Shield Bash from Boar's Rush visually, so the two actions are distinguishable to the player and his group/opponents? How about showing a boar charging from the shield?

Video games are a visual medium, and we don't have continued narration to help move and enhance the story, so there are visual cues and guides to help narrate the action. Just because you see it on the screen does not mean it is being seen by the characters in the story, no more than characters in a film can hear the narrator telling the story, or notice other characters are running in slow-motion, etc.

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Originally Posted by ppinkham

or notice other characters are running in slow-motion, etc.

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I just call them old people

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Originally Posted by LtDiablo

I just call them old people

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Watch it, sonny!

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Originally Posted by ppinkham

Watch it, sonny!

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Damn you kids! Get off my lawn!

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Originally Posted by Jaltir

IANALM (I am not a lore monkey), but I recall a discussion in glff about magic in LoTR in which a lore monkey said that Gandalf eschewed the overt use of his powers because using his powers would allow Sauron to locate him. That is why the few times Gandalf uses magic are of the subtle variety, as you listed, or are done when the Enemy has already located him, as in the battle on Weathertop.

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Actually, that is only partially true. The other reason is that the wizards were forbidden from using their powers to control others, either through fear or other methods, as well as fighting the war for them. They were simply there to guide and to inspire and to lend aid when necessary. The wizards, the balrog, and Sauron are all actually the same kind of creature: Maia. Sauron, however, was probably granted more power by another being in the First age, as was the balrog, and neither of them had the limitations imposed upon them by a human body or the rules that the wizards followed. Also, I don't remember who said that Gandalf was probably second only to Sauron, but in one of the books (I have no idea where, whether in The Simirillion, the appendix, The Book of Lost Tales, The Unfinished Tales) it says that Gandalf was afraid of Sauron, and didn't think that he was powerful enough to help fight against him, but he was willing to go to ME because they needed him. It is cool that he became the most influential wizard in LOTR.

Regarding magic, depending on the point of view you want to assume and the definition you want to base the context on. Anything can be seen as magic.

Some definitions from dictionry.com

magic -noun- the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature.

or

magic -adjective- mysteriously enchanting; magical

So really anything could be seen as magic in lotr depending on how you view it. The fireworks used by Gandalf (he used em in the books right? been so long since I read em) would've been seen as magical, even though we know how they work. Recalling a part from the movie (yes I'm using the movie shhh can't remember the text), when wormtongue looks at the bombs created for the Uruks, he does not understand how the device works or what a bomb even is, a form of witchcraft no doubt to the medievil times or magic, but we of today know the effects of black powder.

Hey guys. What's up? What are we talking about?

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Originally Posted by gildhur

Combat Particle Effects under either UI or Combat settings, I forget which.

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Thanks to both you and Jadzi.

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Originally Posted by angelbound

When I ask in game it is not clear what a wardens role actually is, I understand it is tanking but I hear groups wont let wardens tank?

Anyways I want a class that will invite me to groups often from 20 and up, I want to be able to atleast fill more then one role. If anyone here has played eq2 could you tell me if the warden feels anything like a monk in the group? The monks in eq2 where fast very fast attackers, could tank, offheal and of course dps.

Are wardens actually fun in groups?

And lorewise where do there abilities come from? They are very flashy and look almost magical, and do you get allot of flashy melee attacks?

Lots of questions I know, but im tired of trying characters ive pretty much narrowed it down to burglar, warden, and loremaster possibly a minstrel.

I dropped my captain he has my favorite playstyle but I hated his melee style I do not like slow 2hander weapon types.

Thank you everyone.

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Both Wardens and Rune-keepers are the best choice if willing to start somethng new. Since they are "premium" classes, they will always be made desirable so they will be worth the extra money to the FtP crowd.

My concern with the RK is that I don't know how such words work during battle, or how they produce fire or lightning damage. OTOH, my main is a minstrel, so I should just shut up.

(really, it's because the RK graphics seem a little too good... hmm...)

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Originally Posted by anwar

Both Wardens and Rune-keepers are the best choice if willing to start somethng new. Since they are "premium" classes, they will always be made desirable so they will be worth the extra money to the FtP crowd.

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I don't think that's true. The classes who have gotten updates so far are Captains and Hunters, and Loremasters are up next. It's unlikely that they will nerf everyone or buff Wardens and RK's just to try to get people to purchase them, especially since anyone who plays the game for any length of time will need to buy Moria which includes them in the price.

If I were making a new character on a premium account though, I'd definitely go either Warden or Hunter. Most swift travel is currently VIP only (which is ridiculous imho), so the ability to port around is even more useful than it is to subscribers. Hunters are arguably the best class for non-VIP's because they can port, they have a run-speed buff and they grind deeds very quickly.

Well I am viip, and im sorry guys but I still think flames out of a shield is magic, you might as well called loremasters and runekeepers a nonmagic class as well.

I also think that being smashed in the face with a club by a troll & then feeling better because someone played me a song is magic too.

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Originally Posted by angelbound

Well I am viip, and im sorry guys but I still think flames out of a shield is magic, you might as well called loremasters and runekeepers a nonmagic class as well.

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I don't know what being a VIP has to do with anything, but I'm going to go with the blue name on this one. If you think otherwise, you are welcome to your opinion, but it is not the opinion of the developers of the game.

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Originally Posted by Berephon

The effects for the Warden's skills are just that, FX. (I play with all FX turned off, so I hardly ever notice any.) They are purely for those who desire flashiness. Nothing magical implied.

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I'm debating two different snarky responses, so somebody pick one for me:

1. I guess Wardens are magical in the sense that beauty, elegance and cookys are magical.

2. Well I am viip, and im sorry guys but I still think pictures and sounds out of a computer is magic, you might as well called televisions and radios nonmagic as well.

Seriously though, I know it's a strange tapdance that Turbine has done to try to mash together flashy graphics and a world where magic is super-rare, but that's what is going on here. Loremasters, Runekeepers and every other class are non-magical. :) That's why all spell-like skills say tactical and not magical.

Example: You never actually take damage to your health in LotRO, you just get more and more scared until you retreat. People don't heal your health, they heal your morale. When someone "rezzes" you, they just help you calm down so you don't run away. You never actually die and get brought back to life.

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Originally Posted by tanis0

Example: You never actually take damage to your health in LotRO, you just get more and more scared until you retreat. People don't heal your health, they heal your morale. When someone "rezzes" you, they just help you calm down so you don't run away. You never actually die and get brought back to life.

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Exactly. This is why it's a game folks. If this were real life, the spider wouldn't have to attack you. You'd just faint on mere sight.

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Originally Posted by tanis0

I'm debating two different snarky responses, so somebody pick one for me:

1. I guess Wardens are magical in the sense that beauty, elegance and cookys are magical.

2. Well I am viip, and im sorry guys but I still think pictures and sounds out of a computer is magic, you might as well called televisions and radios nonmagic as well.

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both are sort of meh on the snark-o-meter.

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Originally Posted by lf2536

both are sort of meh on the snark-o-meter.

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Yeah, in hindsight I have to agree. Somebody help me out.

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Originally Posted by Berephon

The effects for the Warden's skills are just that, FX. (I play with all FX turned off, so I hardly ever notice any.) They are purely for those who desire flashiness. Nothing magical implied.

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I really tried playing without FX but was thwarted by the need (fairly reasonable, all considered) to know if I was on fire. It sure would be nice if effect settings were grouped, such as:

[] Plausible (Fire, Cracked Earth, Dread, Drinking etc.)
[] Fantastical (wound fear, poison, disease, etc, some skill Effects )
[] Kiss Concert (Call of Orome etc.)
[] ZOMG, Sparkle Ponies!! (Epic Conclusion) (I <3 Sparkle Ponies!)

Caelavin,
Landroval

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Originally Posted by tanis0

Yeah, in hindsight I have to agree. Somebody help me out.

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Ahem. Is this thing on?

It's a game, shut up and play.


What it lacks in snark, I feel it makes up for in shut-up-and-play-ness.

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Originally Posted by Jaltir

Ahem. Is this thing on?

It's a game, shut up and play.


What it lacks in snark, I feel it makes up for in shut-up-and-play-ness.

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How very Dr. Cox of you... But why would we do that? Have you SEEN this forum before? :D

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Originally Posted by angelbound

Well I am viip, and im sorry guys but I still think flames out of a shield is magic, you might as well called loremasters and runekeepers a nonmagic class as well.

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Hold on, I missed something. Why do you care, again?

Also, you should stay away from Minstrels, Captains, and Guardians, too, since they all do things with yelling that, clearly, humans (elves, dwarves, hobbits) can't do with their voice, and certainly not to things that don't speak [strike]english[/strike] westron. That leaves Champs and Burgs. Oh, but wait, Burgs can do a thing where they let the whole fellowship summon an eagle, horse, ent, or spider to aid them, so they're clarly magical, too. And champs can participate in those. Plus, they can hit 10 mobs with a single swing! That ain't right either.

Huh, looks like you'll just have to suck it up or go without. Oh well.

I was not trying to be snarky but now I will be since you all like to assume allot, I was answering someone who said wardens and rks are not for premium unless you buy with the vip comment, bad english I know. But a runekeeper uses magic regardless he uses a form of energy whatever you want to call it, but this is not a sci fi game it is fantasy purely fictional, if the genre is fantasy then it has magic, that is why it is under fantasy. All books that say fantasy has some form of magic or another, there is a reason why lord of the rings is under the genre fantasy not fiction but fantasy.

Calling the elements is a form of magic in a fantasy world, if you could use the elements through a freeze gun that would be sci fi, but calling the elements with words out of thin air is fantasy and magic, it is dnd whatever you rather call it. I am sorry if you have a problem with magic but maybe your playing the wrong game oh well.

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Originally Posted by angelbound

I was not trying to be snarky but now I will be since you all like to assume allot, I was answering someone who said wardens and rks are not for premium unless you buy with the vip comment, bad english I know. But a runekeeper uses magic regardless he uses a form of energy whatever you want to call it, but this is not a sci fi game it is fantasy purely fictional, if the genre is fantasy then it has magic, that is why it is under fantasy. All books that say fantasy has some form of magic or another, there is a reason why lord of the rings is under the genre fantasy not fiction but fantasy.

Calling the elements is a form of magic in a fantasy world, if you could use the elements through a freeze gun that would be sci fi, but calling the elements with words out of thin air is fantasy and magic, it is dnd whatever you rather call it. I am sorry if you have a problem with magic but maybe your playing the wrong game oh well.

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except you fail to understand a basic element of the game's lore, magic isn't used in Middle Earth, not in the sense that we give it anyway. no class in this game uses magic in any sense, and if manipulating the enviorment is to be considered magic then I suggest you have a talk with a meterologist about cloud seeding as that is clearly magic by your logic.

First, let me apologize for being kind of rude earlier. It wasn't really called for.

Anyway, this will probably be the last post I make in this thread, but here's the situation on this. If you read the books, magic is extremely rare and almost nobody can do it. Even people who can do it almost never actually use it. The people who own the copyrights to the books tend to be very adamant about not allowing changes of this sort to the world presented in the books, and Turbine, as near as I can tell, is contractually obligated to abide by these wishes.

However, Turbine wants people to play their game, and they know that things like healing and crowd control are pretty important if you want a successful MMO. They also know that a lot of players like "magical" classes that do things like throw lightning. So, Turbine had to find a way to try to make these things fit into a world where magic is exceptionally rare without just changing that fact.

What Turbine chose to do was to design their game systems in ways that allowed normal MMO functions without magic (morale and power instead of health and mana being the prime example). Additionally, they decided to make flashy graphics that the players can see that don't actually exist in the world (this became much more pronounced with the RK when Moria launched). This is how they were allowed to have classes that appear to do magic in a world where only a handful of people know how to do any of it.

So, the bottom line is that if you want to believe that there is rampant magic in Middle Earth, by all mean believe that. It's certainly what many people argued when the RK was introduced. Most of us have since reconciled Turbine's dilemma to such a point that we accept their official answer on the subject, which is that nothing a player does as a function of their race or class is considered magical in nature within the world.

Thank you for the mature post, while I do agree with you, I still think it is beyond just my belief, speaking words like a runekeeper does is the same thing as witchcraft, it is the same as using a spell, magic in every fantasy type of game or book comes from forms of lore, and the world around them rather they do it directly by manipulating the natural elements of the planet or they used knowledge from books and ancient scrolls or runes. Summoning lightning is summoning a form of energy, the warden to me looks like it is summoning energy through his spear and so on.

I can see it is possible that the warden is not a magic class but they added fire to his shield, in other mmorpgs they do the melee classes where it looks flashy but not magical at all but very appealing lotro did the opposite of some of the classes, and I am sorry but like I said its to close a call to not call it magic in a fantasy game.

It makes no sense why a runekeeper can summon ice and lightning from runes and not call that magic, and no this has nothing to do with magic in the sense you all are tyring to use the lame explanation that if someone showed me a pc in the stoned age I would think that is magic to, it is clear that the characters are not using another percentage of there brain, it is clear it does not come from technology, it is clear that there are higher beings who are angels and probably gods, there for has to do with myth and magic.

There is no other explanation of manipulating the elements on the runekeeper and until someone comes out with some other kind of evidence that it does not come from magic your point will never validate the truth of it.

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Originally Posted by angelbound

I have no concept of mental flexibility and no ability to make concessions.

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The world must look pretty cool all in black and white. Do you also object to chop-socky films because learning a martial art doesn't really grant you superhuman abilities? Oh, and you must hate cop shows because they're not following correct police procedures. And Transformers must drive you nuts with its flagrant disregard for the laws of conservation of mass and energy, amirite?

If special effects violate your moral principles, then you must only watch documentaries. Oh, wait, they edit the film for watchability instead of showing a hundred hours of uncut interviews and footage, so those are out too.

That's a bit harsh Jaltir. But at the same time, angelbound you should understand that the VFX shown in LOTRO is purely VFX for the sake of VFX, because otherwise they make gameplay harder than it needs to be without visual cues. Whatever VFX you might see here, 90% won't actually appear in LOTR. Only in LOTRO is it present for the players, and not the characters.

What is this fire from the shield that keeps being mentioned? Man... have I been playing with my graphics turned down too low?

Also, my shield does fire damage??!!!

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Originally Posted by angelbound

It makes no sense why a runekeeper can summon ice and lightning from runes and not call that magic, and no this has nothing to do with magic in the sense you all are tyring to use the lame explanation that if someone showed me a pc in the stoned age I would think that is magic to, it is clear that the characters are not using another percentage of there brain, it is clear it does not come from technology, it is clear that there are higher beings who are angels and probably gods, there for has to do with myth and magic.

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Not to delve too deeply into this back and forth, or be rude, but have you considered the possibility that you just laid the ground work for refuting your own argument?

Throughout the history of mankind those things that we do not have the capacity to understand have often been thought of as "magic". That is the basis for the various mythologies throughout history. People see something they don't understand (i.e. the sun traveling across the sky) and explain it away in terms they can understand (a god driving a blazing chariot through the heavens). To these people, it was "clear that there are higher beings who are angels and probably gods, there for has to do with myth and magic." The fact is, however, that men at that time lacked the tools and the rational capacity to discern the actual causes and meanings of the phenomena they witnessed. That doesn't make those phenomena magical. There has never been a blazing chariot driven across the sky by a god.

./facepalm

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Originally Posted by Harc

What is this fire from the shield that keeps being mentioned? Man... have I been playing with my graphics turned down too low?

Also, my shield does fire damage??!!!

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next time you use Shield-bash take a look at your shield, it flares slightly red around the edges.

and shields do common damage unless you use shield spikes to alter the damage type.

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Originally Posted by Thaelyn

There has never been a blazing chariot driven across the sky by a god.

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I dont know, im pretty sure i saw this very thing just the other day... He waved.

Life, friends, and other games have always conspired to keep me from permanently subscribing to LOTRO. However I have adored Middle Earth and the lore surrounding LOTR since I was a teenager.

I would just like to say, contractual obligations notwithstanding I have always respected the great lengths Turbine has gone to in order to stay faithful to their source material. Examples of this that I have seen include the aforementioned morale and power conventions, "Man" instead of "Human", no female Dwarven characters, etc. What in other games I would probably view cynically as developer cheese for the sake of being different (*cough* FFXIV *cough*) in LOTRO I admire and appreciate.

I certainly understand how the official explanation for magical effects in game would seem contrived to some folks. But for me it actually adds to the immersion of being in Middle Earth. Bravo Turbine.

I believe you guys are getting stuck up on the visual thing.

What I think Angelbound is alluding to is that WITHOUT the visuals, speaking words of power and brandishing (or not) a runestone which causes an effect on a target is considered magic/spellcasting however you want to slice it.

unless you guys are advocating the runes themselves are an advanced technology then I'm inclined to agree with Angel.

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Originally Posted by Hectorb911

I believe you guys are getting stuck up on the visual thing.

What I think Angelbound is alluding to is that WITHOUT the visuals, speaking words of power and brandishing (or not) a runestone which causes an effect on a target is considered magic/spellcasting however you want to slice it.

unless you guys are advocating the runes themselves are an advanced technology then I'm inclined to agree with Angel.

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except that in the lore as written words have a power all their own, now admitedly Turbine took that idea and turned into something somewhat different, but the core idea is the same. a word in Middle-earth has real power, Turbine decided it can also inflict damage or "heal" (there is no health in LotRO, there is morale, you are revived and not ressurected, subtle but important differences). as such the powers used by RKs are not magic, they are words exhibiting their natural abilities in Middle-earth, the fact that players required eye candy flames swirling around the mob doesn't make the skills magical, it makes Turbine clever in pandoring to the clients that wanted a "mage" class that could not exist otherwise.

So there is the point of contention.

Words have a power all their own = magic as far as most are concerned.

What would that power be then if not magic?

Inherent power of the earth?
Calling upon forces normally not under our control such as druidic chants or prayers that perform miraculous feats or effects are staples of fantasy magic.

that you choose to call that power something else entirely just because it's middle earth still doesn't separate it from any other spellcasting.

Meloch (or whatever it was, don't remember exactly) opening a door to Moria is no diffferent than "OPEN SESAME" in aladdin.

I'm open to being enlightened but as yet, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck........

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Originally Posted by Hectorb911

So there is the point of contention.

Words have a power all their own = magic as far as most are concerned.

What would that power be then if not magic?

Inherent power of the earth?
Calling upon forces normally not under our control such as druidic chants or prayers that perform miraculous feats or effects are staples of fantasy magic.

that you choose to call that power something else entirely just because it's middle earth still doesn't separate it from any other spellcasting.

Meloch (or whatever it was, don't remember exactly) opening a door to Moria is no diffferent than "OPEN SESAME" in aladdin.

I'm open to being enlightened but as yet, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck........

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Yes, this is basically the crux of the debate. My question is this: what is the difference between technology and magic? I would submit that the difference is that one is commonly understood in our world, while the other is not. That's certainly not the only difference between the two, but I think it's the most applicable.

In our world, words having intrinsic power to help you win a fight definitely falls into the category of magic. However, Middle Earth is a world where that is a commonly understood tenet, and thus has a somewhat different definition of what is magic and what isn't.

This debate is a really old one. It was all over the forums when the Runekeeper class was announced. Most of us were once on your side of the argument. Over time, I guess most of us accepted Turbine's official answer.

Also, when Lord of the Rings was penned, I'm not sure there *were* any real staples of fantasy writing. Tolkien is, after all, generally considered the father of modern fantasy.

I think the important and oft-missed things to consider are as follows: 1) The canonical position is that there is almost no magic in Middle-Earth. 2) Tolkien's family (or executors or whoever it is) exercises tight creative control over products based on Tolkien's works, and will refuse lorebreaking content. 3) Turbine felt that they needed to add a mage class to the game.

Given 1) and 2) above, Turbine necessarily had to perform a song-and-dance number to justify the existence of 3). They did so, and the Rune-Keeper, a scholar using the power of words AND TOTALLY NOT MAGIC OK GUYS FOR SRS was born.

So the debate of "is it or is it ain't magic" doesn't matter. Turbine convinced the only important people in the equation that it wasn't magic, so it's not a duck even if it looks like one and quacks like one.

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Originally Posted by angelbound

Are wardens actually fun in groups?

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I play several wardens at all levels of the game.

They are not fun at all in groups, you should know.

They are HELLA fun*.

Also, the melee style is as near an exact opposite of the Captain as you will find. Quick, varied, range and melee, lots of mob debuffs and self buffs.

One thing Warden does share with Captain, in the end game both can run as main healer in the easier instance, and secondary healer everywhere, while still running frontline dps. (Burglar and Guardian can do this as well because of CJs/FMs, in all honesty.)

* http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...hella-si-units

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Originally Posted by Jaltir

So the debate of "is it or is it ain't magic" doesn't matter. Turbine convinced the only important people in the equation that it wasn't magic, so it's not a duck even if it looks like one and quacks like one.

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So what i told you was the truth, from a certain point of view.
-O-w K

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Originally Posted by Hectorb911

So what i told you was the truth, from a certain point of view.
-O-w K

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yes, if this was our world then I would agree, words having power = magic. but as Tanis and I have said, this is Tolkien's Middle Earth, rules are different here, a "word of Power" in Middle Earth does not equal magic, among the reasons that all species have them, there is nothing really unique about them, Gandalf spoke of knowing many words of command before the doors of Moria from many languages.

magic in LotR is overt and always noticable, if you've read the books think of the attack of the wargs on what in-game is called Burnt Tor and how Gandalf reacted to it, on the other hand using a word to open a gate as in the case of Moria is so day to day that Gandalf, as I mentioned, can easily think of many many words whose job it is to preform just that job.

words have real power in Middle Earth, did Turbine stretch the point considerably to make it work? no doubt, but still, this is within lore.

I might buy a Warden from the LOTRO store and make it my alt.

And btw why does som people care if games has to be realistic or do exactly what the books says? I play videogames to get as far from reality as possible

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Originally Posted by ShotgunStalker

I might buy a Warden from the LOTRO store and make it my alt.

And btw why does som people care if games has to be realistic or do exactly what the books says? I play videogames to get as far from reality as possible

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it kind of hard to explain why lore matters, best I can say is that we who care about lore care deeply about the source material, it's not just a book and a story and this is not just a game, for me (and others) this is a living world that has lived in my imagination for some time. the opportunity this game gives us in being able to visit this world in person is a great one, as such we want to have a world where things are as close as possible to the truth. try to think of it this way, someone made a Bible MMO (really, they did) and imagine that in it David defeats Goliath with a shotgun rather then a slingshot, this would cause an uproar from those who are religious, it kinda similar here. using the RK as an example it felt to some like we had a Sith lord thrown into the middle of Middle Earth, so people were unhappy.

obviously, as in all things, there are degrees, for myself I care very much about lore, but I realize this is a game, I can't have everything just as it was in the books. also, for this game to survive Turbine might need to stretch lore (again the RK) in order to atract customers and I'm mostly ok with that. there are somethings that I hate, the new Hobbit intro for one that makes me to never want to make a Hobbit ever again. there are those of course that care about lore accuracy more then I do and thus get angry when things are changed, again a David and shotgun kinda thing.

There are several things one has to understand about ME to understand the classes in the game. For example magic does exist in ME and is a clearly defined area(lorewise, it might not be clear to the reader, but for a being like gandalf or galadriel the concept would be rather clear). This however does not mean that everything unusual happening is automatically magic, most fantasy worlds clearly draw a line between magic arts and divine powers. Praying or Priests calling on greater powers are generally not considered magic for example, and by many standards divine acts or rules are not considered magic either.

For example this is magic:
I use some powersource, either acquired or inborn, from within me to cause some wood to burn. Clearly magic.

This is not magic:
I learn quircflaxel, which is the language of the local fire elements, and kindly ask them to consume that pile of wood over there, which they might or might not do. Clearly not magic, i just learned a language and asked someone to do something in his tongue.

The same holds true for words of power in ME. For example Sam and Frodo, both clearly unable to do magic, both invoke the name of Elbereth in critical moments to help them. Clearly the power is in the word, and not the user. This might seem like a small difference but its actually a big one since it leads away from magic being something inherent in people. If the power in words comes not from the people using them, but rather the words themselves it becomes an attribute of the world, like an added natural law or something.

The next clue is the standing that music and song have in ME, the world itself was created through them! One can only assume what even an imperfect repeating of parts of this creational music or words associated to it would have. For example if the Ainur used Quircflax to refer to and create the concept of fire in the creation of ME, its not that far fetched to assume that its repeating would invoke heat(in a world where the power is in the words), and the same for light or other things. And again, its not magic since its source is divine/part of the world. Magic by definition is opposed to natural laws, if the natural laws themselves are different so would be the line of what is magic and whatnot.

There might or might not be a racial or some other factor modifying the magnitude of words of power, but considering certain powerful elves could even realistically face balrogs(maiar), and that the istari retained alot of their power even in human bodies, it stands to reason that the key lies in knowledge of things, not so much an inherent or racial source. Also all beings but Eru Ilúvatar seem to work on rather hard limits in regards to what they can do and what not. Maybe the difference between a Maiar and a Elf isn't that much different than between an Elf and a Human, i.e. its mostly about age and some inherent racial perks that might or might not make a difference in a given situation.


All that aside, magic is an ambiguous word. For a hobbit a firework might be magical, for a human the inherent power in some words might be magical, and for a Balrog the way that Dwarf Guardian just took one on the chin and comes back for more after hearing a fancy guitar riffs from his friends might be magical.