Bored at work

Freepside

R8, 2 freeps
R7, 5
R6, 22
R5, 35

1> 150k Infamy
2> 100K and <150K
13>50K and <100
25>25K and <50
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Creepside

R7, 1 creep
R6, 7
R5, 22

1>100K Infamy
1>50K and <100K
10>25K and <50K
37>10K and <25K

Observations from creepside

The freep leaderboard is full of characters who group
The creep leaderboard is full of characters who solo or are in small groups

Solo kill gets higher infamy than a group kill

Successful solo creeps are damage dealers, only 2 of the 41 creeps above are defilers. Defilers either 1) Find getting solo infamy difficult or 2) Few like to play them.

Defilers due to their healing nature have skillz best suited for a group and are needed for a successful group. Solo, little chance for healing. Much less dps than other classes = less infamy when solo.

Soloing creeps have better total infamy creepside
Grouping freeps have better total infamy than solo creeps by a huge freaking margin

Solo and Grouping creeps get fewer kills than
Grouping freeps who get more kills

More group kills = more total infamy than solo kills

Conclusions:

Not much improvement possible solo for creeps. A few higher ranks will help but not much against the coordinated fire from a coordinated and balanced freep raid. Few kills against that. Most infamy and kills comes from overpowering numbers which is less overall than good group play of freeps (ie. sucide runs, tagets of opportunity against straglers, zergs) and rank plays no part in that.

Solutions: *stuff* Implementation may come with time but is not certain.

In looking at the creepside list here's what I see:

Gnawu, Springteen, and Noobchops (see the share quality?) are the ONLY creeps that can make any claim to small/group or solo play. MOST OF THE REST are large group players or if they are in a group of 3-4 they hide in the NPC and pick of solo freeps. Zergers will rank, they will get new abilties, and they will continue to be...unskilled

Well...i am almost always solo, considering only 2 people in my tribe play anymore, but when comes on we group, so im ALWAYS either solo or in a duo

Well of the players I know from being on some of the time I am, I know Stickybuds & Pouncy will always two man creeps, and Machka will solo just as much as I will. It really depends on your class and what you have worked out works best for you. I know I would prefer to be on my reaver if there are bigger fights going on, like taking or defending keeps, mainly because I can avoid the focus fire and CC's if I sprint into a large group and attack, and get out again quickly.

On my wargie its better to pounce when you know you aren't going to have the kinda focus on you that will pull you down before you can get a skill off, and can CC through your sprint, but saying that, there is still the opportunity to maybe pick off someone on the fringe, or has got themselve seperated from the fight, with the wargie. But generally in a big raid setup like that, there are plenty of rezes available, so it can be harder to find someone coming back from a rez point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJ1125

Well...i am almost always solo, considering only 2 people in my tribe play anymore, but when comes on we group, so im ALWAYS either solo or in a duo

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I think Ive seen you out maybe two times in the last few weeks. Both times it was in a TA/EC shuffle. Maybe I play at a different time than you so please forgive me if I don't think you solo much.

I see a lot of creeps claiming solo/small group play but I simply don't see it. If you ask freepside, no one else does either. Maybe creep are solo/small group for PvE, IDK, but its definately not PvP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Davarto

Well of the players I know from being on some of the time I am, I know Stickybuds & Pouncy will always two man creeps, and Machka will solo just as much as I will...

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Can't say Ive seen Machka much. I use to like Stickybuds and Pouncy, but lately they have been running around with Dorogatory which brings them down. Hes an NPC hugging, freep zerging, corpse jumping, 8 second charge and flee, KB-ninja who should be focused fired upon everytime he's seen.

Other than that I like Dorogatory too. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

In looking at the creepside list here's what I see:

Gnawu, Springteen, and Noobchops (see the share quality?) are the ONLY creeps that can make any claim to small/group or solo play. ALL THE REST are large group players or if they are in a group of 3-4 they hide in the NPC and pick of solo freeps. Zergers will rank, they will get new abilties, and they will continue to be...unskilled

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Ah. The zergs you speak of are made up of mostly solo players and small groups of two or three. The small creep groups usually have no healing no balance of classes. No one coordinates with anyone else other than to sometimes communicate where the freeps are.

The freep groups on the other hand have --healers in the form of rks, minis, captain--ranged in rks and hunters--tanking in wardens and guards, dps in rks champs--cc in lm--and so forth. Usuallly they are a minimum of 5 up to 12. Sometimes what appear to be a couple groups of 5 members or so. They communicate and plan their attacks and generally fight where they wish.

Obviously there are some exceptions but generally few.

The point of the post was not intended to be a post. I was bored at work lol. I looked at the leader board and started writing down numbers. They were interesting to me so I posted them.

If there was the coordinated group play you think there is, what you would see and you don't see it, is healing, buffs, flanks, two pronged attacks, more pushes, or in other words active instead of reactive play. The current situation is the freeps push or bait and the creeps react.

Last night for awhile was a bit different for me. I was in a group of 5-7. We had one defiler whose life we made miserable. We could push against a group of half a dozen or so. And present too were the groups of 2 or 3 that would instintivley pick off targets of opportunity, such as the light armor wearers and ranged dps when there was a push or counterattack. Of course everyone loves Melo. I mean that in a non-sexual way.

If we were unsuccessful we all wiped against the rks Epic Conclusions for over 3000, the hunters NOW YOU DIE Creep whatever they are called for over 2000 which was focused fire and took us out quickly one at a time. But it was fun.

And the freeps are cleaning up in infamy many times over if keeping that score is a way to measure effectiveness. And it is one way to keep score.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

.....I see a lot of creeps claiming solo/small group play but I simply don't see it. If you ask freepside, no one else does either. Maybe creep are solo/small group for PvE, IDK, but its definately not PvP.

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Then roll a creep and see for yourself lol. You assume because you see a dozen creeps they must be in a raid. The fact it is not true does not seem to faze you.

Then you take your fairy tale and say "they are in a raid and are unsuccessful, therefore they are all unskilled." It's all fiction dude. In your dreams buddy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaluu

Then roll a creep and see for yourself lol. You assume because you see a dozen creeps they must be in a raid. The fact it is not true does not seem to faze you.

Then you take your fairy tale and say "they are in a raid and are unsuccessful, therefore they are all unskilled." It's all fiction dude. In your dreams buddy.

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12-15 creeps running in the same zerg ball = same zerg ball. Grouped or not. Move AWAY from the zerg and maybe freeps will start to see for themselves.

LOLz at the guy who disguishes a mob of 12-15 creep moving together and ganking groups of 1-6 freeps being different than a "raid" of 12-15 creeps moving together and ganking groups of 1-6 freeps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

.....LOLz at the guy who disguishes a mob of 12-15 creep moving together and ganking groups of 1-6 freeps being different than a "raid" of 12-15 creeps moving together and ganking groups of 1-6 freeps.

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Lol, you bet I do. You apparently missed the entire point you brick.

This is an interesting link. You can break this down by active leaderboard, server, creeps, infamy gained for the week ending 12/3 and rank 4 cuttoff.

http://surugi.com/lotrostats/index.php

What you will see is that the freeps have one over 35000 infamy. one over 25000 infamy and seven over 10000 infamy. The creeps have one over 10000. All the rest of your vaulted Skilled solo creeps are between 2500 and 12000 infamy. That sucks in comparison to what a group is able to accomplish. The freeps are proof of that.

It would not be much of an exageration to say the top eight freeps have more infamy for the week than all the creeps combined. I'll state the conclusion again so you don't have to find the scroll wheel on your mouse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaluu

.....
Conclusions:

Not much improvement possible solo for creeps. A few higher ranks will help but not much against the coordinated fire from a coordinated and balanced freep raid. Few kills against that. Most infamy and kills comes from overpowering numbers which is less overall than good group play of freeps (ie. sucide runs, tagets of opportunity against straglers, zergs) and rank plays no part in that.

Solutions: *stuff* Implementation may come with time but is not certain.

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In other words, zerging and solo small group play is less effective than the good group play of freeps for infamy gained. The difference in infamy between creeps and freeps is freaking huge.

The solution I leave to each of us to ponder if they so choose. I'm not about to tell anyone what to do. There is a place for everyone to play as they choose. These are just facts. Just in case some thought the higher infamy from solo and small group play was better in the long run. Personally I would rather group and level faster. Low ranked creeps suck in the traits, skills, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaluu

Lol, you bet I do. You apparently missed the entire point you brick.

This is an interesting link. You can break this down by active leaderboard, server, creeps, infamy gained for the week ending 12/3 and rank 4 cuttoff.

http://surugi.com/lotrostats/index.php

What you will see is that the freeps have one over 35000 infamy. one over 25000 infamy and seven over 10000 infamy. The creeps have one over 10000. All the rest of your vaulted Skilled solo creeps are between 2500 and 12000 infamy. That sucks in comparison to what a group is able to accomplish. The freeps are proof of that.

It would not be much of an exageration to say the top eight freeps have more infamy for the week than all the creeps combined. I'll state the conclusion again so you don't have to find the scroll wheel on your mouse.



In other words, zerging and solo play is less effective than the good group play of freeps for infamy gained. The difference in infamy between creeps and freeps is freaking huge.

The solution I leave to each of us to ponder if they so choose. I'm not about to tell anyone what to do. There is a place for everyone to play as they choose. These are just facts. Just in case some thought the higher infamy from solo and small group play was better in the long run. Personally I would rather group and level faster. Low ranked creeps suck in the traits, skills, etc.

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Large groups = less infamy/renown. Small groups and solo = more infamy and renown. So, as you stated freeps are getting far more than creeps. Why? Look at your conclusion. Creeps are not getting the infamy because they are in large groups and getting 4 infamy from a freep that was just zerged by 15 creeps spred that over a 2-3 hour night = 400-500 infamy at best. One smalll fellowship thats not running in the zerg can match that in 20 minutes. Move your supposedly small fellowship away from the zerg and infamy will come to you faster.


There is one small catch. Moving your group away from the zerg will result in more infamy but it will also probably result in more dieing. For some reason there are to many players that think dieing in the moors means something.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." :(

Ever wonder why most freeps solo/duo or small group? This is why:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

Large groups = less infamy/renown....Creeps are not getting the infamy because they are in large groups and getting 4 infamy from a freep that was just zerged by 15 creeps spred that over a 2-3 hour night = 400-500 infamy at best. One smalll fellowship thats not running in the zerg can match that in 20 minutes.

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Obviously not all creeps want to go solo, because:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

There is one small catch. Moving your group away from the zerg will result in more infamy but it will also probably result in more dieing. For some reason there are too many players that think dieing in the moors means something

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For creeps, infamy means everything, new ranks, new skills, stronger creeps, and deaths mean NOTHING. Yet too many creeps play as if dying does mean something, unfortunately.

.

Rubicon and Balidor seem to have come to the exact opposite conclusion I have. This may be a difference in a definition of terms.

A "group" for purposes of a creep is the ability to share chat, target assist, buffs, heals, rezs, coordinate attacks, etc. On our gui, our voice chat is available only in a "group" or "raid."

Creeps will never get the renown of freeps until we are able to compete against the large freep "groups" or "raids". That is obviously where freeps are getting all their renown and where creeps are dying to give it away. Several small groups of 3 or so are far less effective at getting the kills as the larger more organized freep force they are facing.

The fact that some solo and small group creeps are getting better renown than their zerging brethern is not a successful argument that this is the successful way for creeps to gain infamy. I don't call successful for creeps the vast superior difference between what freeps are able to accomplish as one large group and what creeps are able to accomplish as small groups.

The best renown comes when large numbers are facing off against one another, and the freeps are winning this because their 12 is mulitiplied many times over thier coordination vs. the vastly inferior coordintion available to several smaller creep forces, even if numbers are equal.

Zerging is a waste of time for creeps and freeps alike imo. Both sides do it when vast superior numbers face off against a few. Obviously gains little infamy.

I look at the top freeps' infamy, who are usually runing in organized larger groups, and compare that to the creeps' infamy, who are runing in smaller groups, and give the nod to the freeps.

Until the creeps start putting organized "groups" together for healing, rezes, and buffing, they will continue to lose big time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

Large groups = less infamy/renown. Small groups and solo = more infamy and renown. So, as you stated freeps are getting far more than creeps. Why? Look at your conclusion. Creeps are not getting the infamy because they are in large groups and getting 4 infamy from a freep that was just zerged by 15 creeps spred that over a 2-3 hour night = 400-500 infamy at best.

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That's not what I said. You just equated a large group as the same as a zerg and then said large groups do not work. A large orgainized grouip and a zerg are two entirely different animals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

One smalll fellowship thats not running in the zerg can match that in 20 minutes. Move your supposedly small fellowship away from the zerg and infamy will come to you faster.

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This is true but not the best way. The best way is to move creeps into larger 10 man raids to equal the size of the freep raid and take advantage of coordination, buffs, healing, rezs etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaluu

Rubicon and Balidor seem to have come to the exact opposite conclusion I have. This may be a difference in a definition of terms.

A "group" for purposes of a creep is the ability to share chat, target assist, buffs, heals, rezs, coordinate attacks, etc. On our gui, our voice chat is available only in a "group" or "raid."

Creeps will never get the renown of freeps until we are able to compete against the large freep "groups" or "raids". That is obviously where freeps are getting all their renown and where creeps are dying to give it away. Several small groups of 3 or so are far less effective at getting the kills as the larger more organized freep force they are facing.

The fact that some solo and small group creeps are getting better renown than their zerging brethern is not a successful argument that this is the successful way for creeps to gain infamy. I don't call successful for creeps the vast superior difference between what freeps are able to accomplish as one large group and what creeps are able to accomplish as small groups.

The best renown comes when large numbers are facing off against one another, and the freeps are winning this because their 12 is mulitiplied many times over thier coordination vs. the vastly inferior coordintion available to several smaller creep forces, even if numbers are equal.

Zerging is a waste of time for creeps and freeps alike imo. Both sides do it when vast superior numbers face off against a few. Obviously gains little infamy.

I look at the top freeps' infamy, who are usually runing in organized larger groups, and compare that to the creeps' infamy, who are runing in smaller groups, and give the nod to the freeps.

Until the creeps start putting organized "groups" together for healing, rezes, and buffing, they will continue to lose big time.




That's not what I said. You just equated a large group as the same as a zerg and then said large groups do not work. A large orgainized grouip and a zerg are two entirely different animals.



This is true but not the best way. The best way is to move creeps into larger 10 man raids to equal the size of the freep raid and take advantage of coordination, buffs, healing, rezs etc.

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Your whole opinion is based on the assumption that successful renown accummulation freep side is done via large group or raids. The "fact" is that the best mode to get renown freep side is a group of 3-4 freeps max. Look at the Freep leader board for RM and you'll find players that either solo or small group almost exclusively.

Anyone out there who truely wants to rank up runs in small groups and stays away from TA/EC. Every single freepside group leader avoids those places as best as possible. But when you ride the map for 20-30 minutes and see nothing then ride past EC and find 8 creeps camping a solo freep inside you just shake your head.

The premise holds true for both side, unfortunately (as the leaderboards indicate) only one side gets it. Whether you believe it or not large groups/raid are probably the worst avenue to take for gaining renown/infamy. Works great for rolling keeps and taking relics, but its a poor way of gaining rank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

....

The premise holds true for both side, unfortunately (as the leaderboards indicate) only one side gets it. Whether you believe it or not large groups/raid are probably the worst avenue to take for gaining renown/infamy. Works great for rolling keeps and taking relics, but its a poor way of gaining rank.

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I was under the impression the freep "groups" were much larger by simple virute of the fact that attacks on one member far away and out of line of sight was responded to so quickly by the whole freep poplulation. How is that even possible? Not always but often enough.

So too small and a group is missing critical healing buffs and support. Too large and renown is diluted.

Still, i have to wonder if there is something else missing creep side. As you say, "unfortunately (as the leaderboards indicate) only one side gets it". Freeps are being far too successful. And I don't see creep rank or player skills explaining all the rest of the difference.

What's left? Strategy? Tactics? It's easy to bail out with a couple terms in lieu of a specific explanation.

Rk healing and dps, Hunter dps, and Mini healing make for a very formidable force and we see that core in many many groups. Add in a Lm, a captain, and guards and wardens and things get ridiculous pretty fast. That is more than a small group now btw. Luckily we have yet to see many champs yet.

more stuff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

Can't say Ive seen Machka much. I use to like Stickybuds and Pouncy, but lately they have been running around with Dorogatory which brings them down. Hes an NPC hugging, freep zerging, corpse jumping, 8 second charge and flee, KB-ninja who should be focused fired upon everytime he's seen.

Other than that I like Dorogatory too. :)

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Well Machka got to her rank in not much more than a month, she charged up the list like her wargie tail was on first, the last couple of weeks she has rolled some and hasn't been here fulltime either.

Well Dorogatory is part of their tribe.....(our tribe :), so he is going to group with them more now.
As far as 8 second charge and flee, KB-ninja........he is playing his class perfectly, and doing what anyone grouped with him would expect from him. If your fighting a against freeps that are focus firing well, and have good CC, then you have to get out of there quickly, because once the sprint wears off, you are like a duck out of water, freep slows and CC's make it impossible for you to get back to your group, or get close enough to a freep to do any real damage.

Nothing worse than being caught in no mans land as a reaver, I know I'm living that dream all the time lol And like has been said, the groups don't to be that organised on our side, so if you are getting any kind of heals its a bonus, because you aren't expecting them :) I think the more experienced creeps get, and more tribe orientated they become, the better and more organised we will become. Its just hard to hold things together in tribes, when creeps are getting bored and leaving, but everyday you see at least one new face on the freep side, so there is still alot of potential here :)

I caught Darkdream soloing this evening. Woot! He HiPs without even trying to fight back. *sad panda*

30 seconds later, I was pounced by him and this rolled in:

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/...nShot00146.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaluu

Zerging is a waste of time for creeps and freeps alike imo. Both sides do it when vast superior numbers face off against a few. Obviously gains little infamy

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G'night and take care. Have fun with the norbogs!

Pretty simple really.

Rank = Time played.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

I caught Darkdream soloing this evening. Woot! He HiPs without even trying to fight back. *sad panda*

30 seconds later, I was pounced by him and this rolled in:

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/...nShot00146.jpg



G'night and take care. Have fun with the norbogs!

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K, well, you ambushed me from behind. When I saw the screen start flashing and my health drop 2k I hit the hips button and looked around. We were still in raid and I said something like, "omg Badori is trying to kill me. That little sneak where did he come from" Just when I got to you, you were mounting up and I attacked, solo. No one else was close. No its was'nt 30 seconds. But... well, you know the rest.

We were roaming the map looking for you guys. Not sure where you all went. Am hoping someone posts today saying so. We had a real nice raid last night of 15. 5 wargs, 2 wl, 2 defilers, and a couple bas, reavers and spiders. You guys had 2 rks, 1 captain, a mini?, 2 hunters, 2 wardens,2 guards, a burg, something like that. 8 to 15 odds has always been in your favor but we rolled you several times with only a couple deaths, which I thought was pretty amazing.

My bad. I think we all expected to find more.

Next time could you hit f12 first so we have a nicer pic? NIce gui btw :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaluu

K, well, you ambushed me from behind. When I saw the screen start flashing and my health drop 2k I hit the hips button and looked around. We were still in raid and I said something like, "omg Badori is trying to kill me. That little sneak where did he come from" Just when I got to you, you were mounting up and I attacked, solo. No one else was close. No its was'nt 30 seconds. But... well, you know the rest.

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Yea, it was 30 seconds or very close to it. I hit you will chilling rhetoric as you HiPs (30 second CD, its off CD in the SS) Also, the moment you pouncy'd me (pun there) before you could even get your slow on me I had a poison from the spider (see ss). Seriously, I checked my combat log while the silly defiler corpse jumped me and I had TWO damage entries from you before the BA and spider hit me. They where placing DoTs on me while I was stilled stunned. Either they teleported in or you underestimated how close the g-squad was.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaluu

We were roaming the map looking for you guys. Not sure where you all went. Am hoping someone posts today saying so. We had a real nice raid last night of 15. 5 wargs, 2 wl, 2 defilers, and a couple bas, reavers and spiders. You guys had 2 rks, 1 captain, a mini?, 2 hunters, 2 wardens,2 guards, a burg, something like that. 8 to 15 odds has always been in your favor but we rolled you several times with only a couple deaths, which I thought was pretty amazing.

My bad. I think we all expected to find more.

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EDIT: 8 to 15 odds is only in freep favor IF there are a substainal amount of green/blue dots. Thats getting less and less common. Also, I noticed the map was all red. Creeps killed during the fight can and do retreat and return in time to re-join the fight. Freeps, not so much unless the fight is on GV hill. 8v15 on a red map or considering that most ranked creeps have maps nearby to just about every place really plays out like 8 to 20+. Even a good freep group will lose that fight. The break point is probably closer to 1.5 times the freep number right now on a all red map for a good open field fight.

I was in a group that was rolled a few times about 1.5 hours prior. (I have a screenie of us getting rolled by 12+ creeps vs a PuG of 6 freeps). My guess is after I left to PvE the group got bigger. I was warned not to go out to the moors due to a large creep raid. I should have listened :)

Im not trying to insult you in the least bit. It just struck me as odd that you make some very good points in your posts on this thread then you seemed to disregard those points in game.

If it were me in your shoes:
I would had torn into Badori right away knowing that all I have to do is survive long enough for the "raid' to show up. Even if I don't that sneaky RK is dead because he's not getting away from the rest the incoming raid.

I hope this week was an indicator of the weekend to come. Good times. See you out there!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

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I hope this week was an indicator of the weekend to come. Good times. See you out there!

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Me too!

For what it is worth we were trying to be responsible. We didn't camp EC or GV or anything for that matter.

When the freeps were running the npcs off stab we let them and went around to sergants ramp and up the hill. The bears are close by there and the woods and rocks. When they didn't come, we expected to find the freeps on TA lawn so we sent a flanking group around to stab from behind that would have pulled the freep npcs to ta lawn and the rest went back to attack from east TA river. Only we found they had not taken the bridge, whatever.

Rather than camp-attack EC we pulled back to the crossroads. The fights around River OP were very close to the Lug rez but the freeps picked that spot.

Pouncy and some other creeps are very experienced at picking spots that even the odds, spots other than EC or Ta lawn. But they weren't there.

You all do understand that the OPs data set is invalid? The base assupmtion is that each player has only one toon. At least for the creeps, a player usually runs 3-5 toons so that they can get DP for multiple OutPost capture quests. That means the OP was only looking at 15-20 creeps, not 40-something. It's even possible that there are some people out there have more than one freep-toon. There's no actual way to figure out how many paylers there are on each side. Guessing doesn't count.

The other assumption is that freeps and creeps chase rank equally. They don't. Creeps need infamy to level, just as all you power-levelers needed XP. Creeps tend to chase infamy a lot harder than freeps chase reknown.

Yet, freeps still post all this rhetoric in a vain attempt to get creeps to just run up to them and die. It's not good enough for creeps to fight and die, they need to throw themselves at the freeps so that the freeps don't have to chase them ... to much work involved.

[edit] P.S. I forgot to point out that the original data sets are presented as disjoint. This is a fallacy. The sets do in fact intersect as many people play both sides openly. This widens the gap even further, decreasing the number of people playing just creep-side. In fact, I've only seen 1 person, maybe two, that plays creep exclusively. And even they have freep toons, though not in the Moors level range.

Saying creeps suck on this server is much more analogous with saying Freeps suck at playing their creep toons on this server.

ok so right off the bat- this whole time i thought one person kept arguing with himself. your 2 names in the sigs are WAY too similar hahaha

ok now on topic- i think what was proved was that not all the creeps can afford to solo or small group unless they are sig. which will be like moving at a snails pace if they were to solo all the way to sig. secondly, staying around ec and meeting a mass of creeps is not unheard of. if they are farming npcs and an then you go there knowing you will not find small scale pvp.

if you want small skirmish fights the best bet is to take a group of allies and park at an open field spot, lug, tr, etc and wait until you get spotted. assuming you get spotted by someone in a small group you can expect them to rally together and come fight. if you find someone who is solo you can bet it will be called in ooc and turn into a slaughter (either creeps show up unorganized and die like lambs being led to the slaughter, or they show up in mass together and roll over the freeps. it is sort of a lose/lose situation most of the time.

there was only one person clamoring for smaller fights and he has since ditched his tribe and gone MIA. we have had some solid 12 on 12 fights as of late, but it seems that the steadier pvp is at night. daytime pvp here is pretty rare. take all of this into consideration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

Can't say Ive seen Machka much. I use to like Stickybuds and Pouncy, but lately they have been running around with Dorogatory which brings them down. Hes an NPC hugging, freep zerging, corpse jumping, 8 second charge and flee, KB-ninja who should be focused fired upon everytime he's seen.

Other than that I like Dorogatory too. :)

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machka has been on her ba and defiler.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug01

In looking at the creepside list here's what I see:

Gnawu, Springteen, and Noobchops (see the share quality?) are the ONLY creeps that can make any claim to small/group or solo play. MOST OF THE REST are large group players or if they are in a group of 3-4 they hide in the NPC and pick of solo freeps. Zergers will rank, they will get new abilties, and they will continue to be...unskilled

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This is not true. However since I have no idea who you are... I would assume you have not been on this server long enough to know who I am. Wait until I can get venom and blood out here a few times. You'll be wishing you were getting zerged.

Nothing was proven. You can't prove anything on an invalid data set. We don't have any idea of how many actual creeps there are, let alone how many freeps. The few freeps you've quoted as being small group capable are just freeps playing creeps. They have access to kins that will fightclub with them - feed them infamy.

Gnawu is almost constantly up at TR rez fightclubbing. He doesn't group much because that interferes with fightclub time.

Spingsteen, like all of TFF, checks in on vent first to see which side he is supposed to play, then makes a ton of mistakes and nerd-rages at the first creep he sees.

Noobchops has some idea of tactics and a voice that people will listen to, but only logs into creep-side for the late-late-show. He's slipped few times on voice chat talking about his 'main'. And realistically, the best way to learn freep tactics is to play a freep.

Hell, look at Evilbela the other night running from the TR rez to TR lawn and just standing there letting her friends farm reknown. Then when they had enough - or thought some other creeps were farmable, she flipped back to Bella. Like no one would ever know.

People play multiple creeps for DP farming. People flip back and forth from freep to creep. These are the facts of LOTRO life. Therefore, the data sets are invalid. No conclusions can be drawn from invalid data sets.

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Originally Posted by Abreen

You all do understand that the OPs data set is invalid? The base assupmtion is that each player has only one toon. At least for the creeps, a player usually runs 3-5 toons so that they can get DP for multiple OutPost capture quests. That means the OP was only looking at 15-20 creeps, not 40-something. It's even possible that there are some people out there have more than one freep-toon. There's no actual way to figure out how many paylers there are on each side. Guessing doesn't count.

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yes, the data would be invalid with your base assumptions as you state. But you can't take those base assumptions to invalidate all the arguments in this thread because several do not have those base assumption. Also, your base assumption are just as invalid in many situations. Also the initial post has been expanded upon and refined.

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Originally Posted by Abreen

The other assumption is that freeps and creeps chase rank equally. They don't. Creeps need infamy to level, just as all you power-levelers needed XP. Creeps tend to chase infamy a lot harder than freeps chase reknown.

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We are looking at infamy for creeps (which equal kills) to renown for freeps (which equal kills). The Surgi web site compares those two. If we could see the number of kills, it would be even more skewed since freeps are generally higher rank. Creeps get far more infamy per kill from a freep than the freeps do from lower ranked creeps. Yet freeps excell.

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Originally Posted by Abreen

Yet, freeps still post all this rhetoric in a vain attempt to get creeps to just run up to them and die. It's not good enough for creeps to fight and die, they need to throw themselves at the freeps so that the freeps don't have to chase them ... to much work involved.

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Actually I am a creep lol. Even my wife says so. I would actually prefer the freeps throw themselves at the creeps lol.

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Originally Posted by Abreen

[edit] P.S. I forgot to point out that the original data sets are presented as disjoint. This is a fallacy. The sets do in fact intersect as many people play both sides openly. This widens the gap even further, decreasing the number of people playing just creep-side. In fact, I've only seen 1 person, maybe two, that plays creep exclusively. And even they have freep toons, though not in the Moors level range.

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When creeps do play, they usually face far superior freep groups. Reasons being class make up, organization, op skillz, communication etc. Your p.s. only reinforces my point. Creep side is weak in many repsects. Number of toons on each side is the least of it and not pertininet. I am discussing numbers on each side that could be equal fights but are not.

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Originally Posted by Abreen

Saying creeps suck on this server is much more analogous with saying Freeps suck at playing their creep toons on this server.

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You lost me there. That statement is too broad and can mean too many things.

Many active creeps do not have freeps on RM. Many of us have not taken the time to level freeps. Previous posts have lamented the "outsiders" coming to RM on both sides. The freeps are just now getting to lvl 65 which is all you will see 99% of the time.

The creeps are still lower ranked. Part is due as you say to one player having many creeps, part is due to the length of time it takes to get infamy as a creep. Because it takes so long to gain higher ranks, many creep players have indeed leveled several characters to sig rank 3 and up to rank 5 to have available competitive classes. Ungreen you could say.

The thrust of the post was one of evaluating balance. If we are all going to be happy there has to be balance. The best battles are where there is balance. They are longer, produce more infamy/renown and are more entertaining. No one needs the yard stick I was playing with here to know that btw.

The premise that solo and small group play gives better infamy gain for creeps is only true if the solo/small group creeps are getting kills. That is real difficult against organized freep groups that are balanced. And freep groups are balanced because that is what they must have so they can be successful pve side.

True, many on the list are successful running in small groups, but that is only true for three reasons. One, because they skirt the perimiter of the big fights capitalizing on weakness while the majority of unorganized creeps are dying on sucide runs to get one or two kills. Two, and less important, they are successful at pairing off with another small freep group for equal private encounters. That is immaterial to points I wanted to discuss. Most importantly, they work together without which the first two would not be possible. This is what is often lacking creep side.

My conclusion hasn't changed. The past week has reinforced that in my mind. THere is far more infamy/renown from equally balanced battles over a long period of time. Equally balanced means many things. The better creeps work together, the more balanced battles we will have. It doesnt matter if the 8 or 12 freeps we are lookiing at are one or two groups. What matters is how to nutrilize them, gut them, and gnaw on their bones. that is some serious fun :p

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Originally Posted by Abreen

Nothing was proven. You can't prove anything on an invalid data set. We don't have any idea of how many actual creeps there are, let alone how many freeps.

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true

But extrapolaitons can be made, hypotheses formed, and tested by observation on the server. The number totals are so skewed with any subset you can take as to be off the charts. I assume that can not be soley due from the actual number of creeps and freep players and each's number of characters alone. That is a reasonable assumption. Observation of server behavoir bears that out.

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Originally Posted by Abreen

Saying creeps suck on this server is much more analogous with saying Freeps suck at playing their creep toons on this server.

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My freep toon is lvl 18 on this server. I know I must be a freep at heart....

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Originally Posted by darkplains

This is not true. However since I have no idea who you are... I would assume you have not been on this server long enough to know who I am. Wait until I can get venom and blood out here a few times. You'll be wishing you were getting zerged.

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If you still played here regularly you'd know who I am. The only time I've seen Khaos was for ~30 seconds when he ran right into an RI raid and got seriously zerged. Then (10 minutes later) you proceeded to rage post on the forums about it. After that, haven't seen you.

EDIT: You racked up a mighty 90 infamy on Khaos in the last 3 weeks on RM. I should be asking: "Who are you?"

If you're as good as you think you are then great. More skilled WLs in the moors the better.

HINT: Check my profile if you want to know my freep, I don't hide it like most.

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Originally Posted by doug01

If you still played here regularly you'd know who I am. The only time I've seen Khaos was for ~30 seconds when he ran right into an RI raid and got seriously zerged. Then (10 minutes later) you proceeded to rage post on the forums about it. After that, haven't seen you.

EDIT: You racked up a mighty 90 infamy on Khaos in the last 3 weeks on RM. I should be asking: "Who are you?"

If you're as good as you think you are then great. More skilled WLs in the moors the better.

HINT: Check my profile if you want to know my freep, I don't hide it like most.

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Yeah I kinda let go of the fail pvp on this server a month or two ago... I was kinda hoping it would pick up.

However, I am quite proud of that 90 infamy I must say. I soloed it all you know.

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Originally Posted by Abreen

Nothing was proven. You can't prove anything on an invalid data set. We don't have any idea of how many actual creeps there are, let alone how many freeps. The few freeps you've quoted as being small group capable are just freeps playing creeps. They have access to kins that will fightclub with them - feed them infamy.

Gnawu is almost constantly up at TR rez fightclubbing. He doesn't group much because that interferes with fightclub time.

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I love it when people who know absolutely nothing about you, can read your thoughts and have you all worked out lol

I have no idea what this fightclubbing is you speak of??

I must be doing that with all my freep friends in my kin I suppose?? Well if my L24 warden, Wardwee was even in a kin....and I even had any L65 freep friends on his list lol

The only freeps I'm fighting at TR rez, are the ones that are hugging one shots because we have them outnumbered and boxed in there. Sometimes anywhere in the Moors you may get a freep who you have battled for along time out here, when it is really slow, steps forward and gets your attention by jumping to 1 v 1 you.
That happened to me yesterday outside Lug, when Fishbait spotted me thru my stealth and didn't call the others in to zerg me.

If you are talking about going up to Candy Mountain to 1 v 1, I have been up there twice, for about an hour at a time, and I only knew about it because it was mentioned in OOC.

So get your facts straight, I can only assume you are one of those handful from OOC who take offence to those who prefer to group small or solo, and don't feel the need to raid ALL the time. I myself have been frustrated in raids of late, through no fault of my own, I can't communicate via voice, so when I attempt to call out a target in raid chat, or offer any suggestions, it is completely ignored, so I find I have zero impact anyhow. And the type of focus fire you get from pouncing a target can't be countered by healing, so there is no benefit at all from me being in raid in that senario, its just a very frustrating experience.

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Originally Posted by darkplains

Yeah I kinda let go of the fail pvp on this server a month or two ago... I was kinda hoping it would pick up.

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Well, its kinda odd that you we're one of the originals to play here and set the bar for "fail". Thanks! But have no worries there are better creeps playing now and PvP is improving now that, well, the originals have moved on.

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Originally Posted by darkplains

However, I am quite proud of that 90 infamy I must say. I soloed it all you know.

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Actually it was 55 one week and 35 another. So I know you didn't solo any of it. :)