Is using Overpower a necessary evil?

So, I'm one of those noob Guards that really doesn't have a clue what he's doing, hence the question. 99% of the time I am playing with my wife (a hunter) as well as a few other friends so I have totally ignored weapons or skills related to running in OP. Is there any real point in me having a two hander set aside for those very infrequent times that I have to solo or is it more important that I concentrate on honing my sword and board tanking skill? I'm finally starting to feel like I'm getting the hang of it, even though I still do lose aggro on occasion. At this point, I'd hate to think that I have to learn a whole other aspect of being a Guard this far into the game.

The more opinions the better. :)

Is it good to have the deeds done and all the OP skills? Yes.

Is it an interesting change from S&B? Yes.

There are a few end game fights (Fire Twin in BG and she Twin in Lost Temple) that running in OP is the way to go since you will not get any blocks. I am sure many of the OP experts will weigh in here shortly and give you 100 other reasons to run OP all of the time, but it isnt anywhere near my favorite.

I didn't really mess around with OP until some time in the 60s. Is it necessary? Not really, however I did it to complete the deeds. In doing so, I found that it was a very effective way of soloing for dailies, general questing, and solo skirmishing. Kills are much faster, but you take more damage so if you are battling tougher things and have no healer, then it is not a great way to go. I would swap to sword and board to kill the named guys in skirmishes, rare elites, etc. Just keep one of those 2H legendaries and level it up, then use it when the situation allows for it. That will at least get you familiar with it and get some of the class deeds out of the way. Doing it that way, you will get familiar enough with it that it won't seem so bad swapping between the two if you ever care to do so.

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Originally Posted by Galiden

Not really, however I did it to complete the deeds. In doing so, I found that it was a very effective way of soloing for dailies, general questing, and solo skirmishing.

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About the same; personally, if I'm being honest with myself, the biggest reason I don't run around in OP is because if I wanted a Dwarf running around with 2Hs, I'd go on my champ and switch him to 2H - tho he usually runs on DW.

OP makes soloing faster. If you don't have a problem with your soloing speed, you don't need it when soloing.

OP is also good if you get into a group with another Guard. 2 Guards fighting for aggro helps no one, so it's good to be able to volunteer to go into OP and dish out some DPS instead.

There are also a handful of mobs out there that turn into a DPS race, like the Taskmistresses in the Moria Hall of Mirrors instance. They need to be killed within a certain amount of time or else they go nuclear. So everybody needs to get into their DPS stance and burn them down fast. I suppose you don't *need* to if your other fellow members are powerful enough, but this leads to my next point...

OP is a good tool to have and be able to use when your group needs it. You don't have to trait for it to still get some benefit from the stance (and 2h weapon). So be sure to at least have a 2h weapon and some familiarity with using OP if you want to get the most out of your Guardian.

I say all this as a Guard who prefers Sword-and-Board whenever possible. I use Sword-and-Board for solo skirmishes, and rely on a Sage to provide DPS. I even go to Sword-and-Board when solo if I'm taking on more than 3 on-level mobs. But even I find a use for OP every once in a while.

It all really comes down to whatever you have the most fun doing. Getting a 2h and messing around with OP skills may feel awkward at first, but you may actually come to like it once you get the hang of it. You can actually tank better than you think in OP but it's truly a matter of personal preference.

By default, my guard is traited for OP and runs around with a 2h equipped. I'll tank 3/6-man instances in OP at times, and other times I feel like going S/B. They are 2 completely different play styles and it helps to keep things fresh and interesting. Overpower is part of your class, so you should at least look into it. If you don't like it, that's fine -- there are plenty of S/B Guards out there -- but at least you can say you tried.

I would think that any player, of any class, would...at a minimum...have played with all their various stances/etc. enough so that they had a pretty good feel for what they did, their strengths & weaknesses, etc. Every class in this game has a certain degree of flexibility built into it, and being the best player you can be requires a certain knowledge of all of the tools in your arsenal. As a guardian, the OP stance and its related skills are part of that arsenal we have at our fingertips.

Is it "needed"? Very rarely. But at times the stance can be very helpful. It would be wise to play around with it enough that you get a decent feel for it. Beyond that, if you find you don't like it...fine. Don't use it. But at least you'll have know what it can do, for those (very rare) situations where the good of a group basically demands you to be in OP.

It's not necessary, but it's not evil either.

It's been months since I've held a shield. Soloing is so much faster in OP. I'm in no way opposed to retraiting for a shield if it's necessary, I simply haven't needed to in a long time.

I "grew up" playing a mini, who aren't the best solo class... but I learned to quest pretty conservatively, which means I'm often doing quests that are below level. OP is the way to go in my situation; because I'm fighting lower level mobs, I don't need the extra protection from a shield, and I am traited for OP damage, so I can cut through mobs and quest faster.

I keep a sword&shield on my hotbar, and would always sword&board for instances that I'm maintanking. If I'm DPS, I use OP.

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Originally Posted by FormulaTroll

It's not necessary, but it's not evil either.

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When I saw the thread title, this was the exact and exclusive response I had in my head to post.

The idea that you take less damage with a shield is rather misleading. Yes, each individual hit from the mob does less damage using a shield, but by taking significantly longer to kill the mob you give the mob a much longer opportunity to hurt you. If I kill a mob in half the time using OP then I also reduce the time it can hurt me by half as well. In terms of damage taken, I find it pretty much a wash between OP and using a shield. The main advantage of the shield is to give you additional threat generating capabilities in case your higher damage from OP isn't sufficient to hold threat. The price for that extra threat is taking longer to kill the mob -- and that will be true in a duo as well as solo.

OP really isn't necessary at all. It really comes down to preference. After OP was changed so you couldn't use a shield I didn't toggle it again till i hit 65 and then got bored and I found a 2h that I liked and headed out to the moors.
I grew to love OP and learned when it was viable and when it isn't. If I'm not in a 6 man or 12 man im usually in OP. It just makes things so much faster and is a relief from the S&B approach. Don't get me wrong I love my shield and my 9k morale pool but it just takes so long to do anything without good DPS behind you. And even when you do it just makes things that much faster.
In the end there is no point where OP is strictly 'Necessary'. Although it makes some fights that much easier. Especially time sensitive ones as someone mentioned above. I know most groups are going to ask guards to go OP for the mammoth race in OD but other than that I've never been told to trait it.

as a solo guard at level 30, I find OP as an effective playstyle to use... sure, I'd retrait as an axe+shield tank when I eventually group...

but there's just something RIGHT about a dwarf with a big 2H axe and a heavy crossbow... and that cool forced opening skill sound effect when I lay down some hurt on anything...

it can come down to preference, as others have suggested... I think it's a nice touch to have that option open for a guardian... leaves room to really play around with the class...

Honestly, OP may not be necessary but it actually makes 90% of content easier, from solo to three mans, to six mans, and even a lot of the time in raids...

Eg:

For the new content, you are better off using OP for all of the following:
Instances:

• All 3 mans. OP isn't necessary really, but its soo slow if you don't trait for it.
• Lost Temple: OP is really better for most of the adds, as you will die if you pull all the aggro and don't kite/pledge/kill stuff fast anyway regardless of whether or not you have a shield out. Also, if you're not tanking the boss (and its much much better if you let a capt kite for the boss fight), then OP is extremely useful in the boss fight.
• SS: OP is better for most of the Coldbear fight (he has a no b/p/e debuff up most of the time, and you can even use wights for super crazy dps).

Raid (5/6 fights involve some kind of dps race):

• Wound boss the whole time (unless you're kiting mammoths).
• Disease boss for all the time while on the tree.
• Poison boss while not tanking (if you're aggro swapping).
• Fear boss while not tanking (you will definitely be aggro swapping).
• Ivar if you're not the main tank (yes, we did Ivar with 2 guards even though its not optimal). In fact Ivar is a big dps race where the whole raid takes a tonne of dmg, so you definitely want to tank at the end in OP + double pledge.
• Gorthoron if you're not the main tank (a good OP blender machine does help quite a lot, even over an extra champ).

Also:

• And of course EVERY SINGLE TIME PLEDGE IS UP (why would you be in block for when you're invincible vs melee attacks in OP anyway)!

Additionally, you gain a lot of dps from red traits, and gain comparatively very minimal survivability from yellow traits. When you're better off using a shield, aggro is rarely (if ever) an issue, so blue line is usually wasted.

==> Trait 5 Reds + Harasser always, except for raiding when you are main tanking.

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Originally Posted by nelar

The idea that you take less damage with a shield is rather misleading. Yes, each individual hit from the mob does less damage using a shield, but by taking significantly longer to kill the mob you give the mob a much longer opportunity to hurt you. If I kill a mob in half the time using OP then I also reduce the time it can hurt me by half as well. In terms of damage taken, I find it pretty much a wash between OP and using a shield. The main advantage of the shield is to give you additional threat generating capabilities in case your higher damage from OP isn't sufficient to hold threat. The price for that extra threat is taking longer to kill the mob -- and that will be true in a duo as well as solo.

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Point 1) Yup, you don't take all that much damage in OP because:
a) You put the Stagger debuff on mobs a large proportion of the time (even from in front just due to crits)
b) You use TTK frequently which stun locks most bosses for a non trivial amount of time
c) A lot of mobs put out b/p/e debuffs, etc.
d) Pledge makes you near invincible regardless of stance.
e) You kill things MUCH faster

Point 2) No, you actually generate a tonne more threat in OP (especially AoE threat, but also single target). Going Litany Master + Threat Stance is the only way to compete with the threat gen of OP.





@tldr;

Necessary: No.
Evil: No.
Useful: Extremely.
Fun: Extremely.

You've all convinced me to start leveling a 2 hander and to adjust my thinking that OP is evil. My bias is a throwback to the last MMO I played (no, not THAT one). On top of everything else, the responses have made me realize how little I really do know about the nuances of playing a guard. I obviously still have a lot to learn before I consider attempting any end-game content.

Thanks everyone for your invaluable input. Now I just have to figure out what all these new buttons do....... :D

If OP makes soloing easier because you kill things faster, it will also make killing mobs faster and easier in small groups.

Why not go OP and then switch to S&B when you come across things you know you will need to keep off others?

Also, the increase in damage you do at the start will help counter some of the agro a hunter will create.

When you get TTK legendary, it will do wonders to your duo.
When in just parry mode sword/shield I don't crit tttk because I have morale/etc on relics.
When you get a 2her set for dps, you will have the crit relics.. and will crit TTK so often..

In a 3 man.. gyb or such will heal 400+ a tick (500+ to me with inc heal) 5 times iirc so thats 2k heal right there.. cab healing 400 seems so small.

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Originally Posted by Evendale

...[*]Ivar if you're not the main tank (yes, we did Ivar with 2 guards even though its not optimal). In fact Ivar is a big dps race where the whole raid takes a tonne of dmg, so you definitely want to tank at the end in OP + double pledge.
...[*] And of course EVERY SINGLE TIME PLEDGE IS UP (why would you be in block for when you're invincible vs melee attacks in OP anyway)!
...

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Eldar's Grace, too. Just sayin'.

<.<

>.>

(shoulda roll'd an Elf!)

*runs away*

Well I have just returned to the game after a long break, and I never used OP when I played before (S&B all the way). Now I am back and my kin is gone, I am soloing through moria, I have OP on ALL the time. I think it is the bees knees for soloing. I can solo up to 4 or 5 mobs on level or 1 over. I have him traited for parry's and DPS and it works great.

For example, I just went back to clean up some epics and soloed all of Volume 1 book 14, and am on the last instance of book 15 now. If you can't recall these there are lots of 20k master elites and some 50k master elites. The new Soloable buffs they give you to do these instances alone are great for OP as it buffs your morale up MEGA and gives you great dps with a 2h.

I will go back to S&B for tanking, but I love the OP.

I couldn't live without it.
My 2h Axe is by far my main focus out of my LIs and I'm always looking to increase my Melee Critical and my Parry. I too didn't start using it till my 60s but now I use it all the time.
My Kin told me I should've rolled a Champion, so I did and blegh, they die too easily.

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Originally Posted by ImirielOfTheNorth

I couldn't live without it.
My 2h Axe is by far my main focus out of my LIs and I'm always looking to increase my Melee Critical and my Parry. I too didn't start using it till my 60s but now I use it all the time.
My Kin told me I should've rolled a Champion, so I did and blegh, they die too easily.

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other way around, champions should've rolled a guardian :D

I kid, but for me I prefer OP whenever I'm solo, and even then sometimes when I'm tanking. Shield-only attacks are the only real benefit to going that way since they tend to generate more threat which means less chasing things around, as well as the added benefit of survivability. I wouldn't say overpower is necessary though. If you enjoy the pace of the game with a sword and shield then more power to you. I don't go OP for the speed actually, I've just always played my "knight" characters with a 2 handed weapon. As far as soloing is concerned, they're both on par.

I can't say that I've ever used OP. I don't have a problem killing things quickly. With my belt having shield damage, shield smash damage, and shield use maxed, when running in block stance, I am constantly getting block responses and usually hit for 400-500 with my shield skills, and routinely crit for 1500+.

I am rolling a dwarf guard and may use him OP with an axe to see th difference when he gets big enough.

So for me, OP is not necessary, though I can't say I've ever given it a proper chance. The couple times I've tried it out, I've noticed big power issues, but I didn't retrait, so that probably would make a difference.

At end game, the switch to Overpower-only skills on your hotbar and the swapping of traits (at around 200 sp per pop) are a pain in the butt and a lot of people won't do it. Personally, I think it is totally worth it. When the new 3-man instances launched, my normal team of Guardian, Captain, Minstrel managed to do them both but suffered a few learning failures and challenges. After hashing out what was happening, I concluded Northcotton Farms instance really should be played in OP mode and at Tier 1, with the Guard on OP, it is ridiculously easy. Once we figured out our tactics, the same thing applied to Stoneheight -- both those 3-mans just run suprisingly smoother for us switching from S&B to OP mode. The reason is that the challenge on them is balanced for all the status effects - wounds in Stoneheight and poison in Northcotton. And your shield really isn't doing much to protect you from wounds or poison - hence, significantly higher DPS is pure win.

I think that if you took two relatively equal Guardians, and one traited and geared for OP and the other was traited for S&B, we'd see that when they fought a group of the same mobs...
The S&B guard would finish the fight with more health than the OP guard. Not sure by how much, but it would be a significant amount...
Conversely, the OP guard would finish the fight faster than the S&B guard. Again, how much faster? Not sure, but it would be statistically significant.

It's not as simple as OP kills twice as fast, so they take half as much damage... it's a much more complicated ratio, where the S&B takes less damage because of the additional block procs and armour value. The OP guard is definitely going to do more damage, but not twice as much, because the S&B can still add shield skill damage.

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Originally Posted by Boffadoc

I think that if you took two relatively equal Guardians, and one traited and geared for OP and the other was traited for S&B, we'd see that when they fought a group of the same mobs...
The S&B guard would finish the fight with more health than the OP guard. Not sure by how much, but it would be a significant amount...
Conversely, the OP guard would finish the fight faster than the S&B guard. Again, how much faster? Not sure, but it would be statistically significant.

It's not as simple as OP kills twice as fast, so they take half as much damage... it's a much more complicated ratio, where the S&B takes less damage because of the additional block procs and armour value. The OP guard is definitely going to do more damage, but not twice as much, because the S&B can still add shield skill damage.

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You are not wrong. but its even more complex than you suggest...if the OP guard has additional targets on his 2hndr, and given that a SnB's biggest attacks are single target shield strikes...the OP guard actually widens the gap in dps facing numerous mobs.

Conversely, the snb guard actually can in some circumstances become almost invulnerable if built for partial mit's and wearing heal proc gear (visit AoEworth's vidoe of the crafting instance pull). An OP guard can not even survive that...plainly and simply.

Both have their places, and please forgive me for saying: anyone who refuses to spend the time building LI's and equipment rosters to maxmize each...instead looking for a one-stop magic bullet solution...is being lazy and not living up to his or her fullest potentials.

Just do it...build both and be all that a guard can be.

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Originally Posted by Boffadoc

The OP guard is definitely going to do more damage, but not twice as much, because the S&B can still add shield skill damage.

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Way more than twice as much ...

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Originally Posted by Evendale

Way more than twice as much ...

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I totally agree.

Besides the increased DPS of the weapon and the obvious 50% and more in bonuses from traits, you are using different attacks and relying more heavily on the parry chain -- the very-fast induction Stagger plus lots of quick parry chains result in significantly higher damage potential than the normal one-hander attack sequences and heavy reliance on slow-induction block chains. Adds up fast - harder hitting weapon, huge damage bonus from traits, faster and harder hitting attacks in core group of skills -- doubling your DPS is not at all far-fetched.

I just read the "Guards using OP at lower level" thread...

My guard is level 40, doing a lot of solo work right now, so traited for OP (4 red + harasser). I'm finding that to be awesome; I can wade through mobs of at level foes with great speed... but after reading that thread, I can see that I'm going to really amp up my OP in the next 6 levels. That's going to be fun...

Just like you i ignored OP till i hit 65 and started to do instances for end game gear - i found that there was a few 3-man instances where depending on your party make-up we didn't have enough DPS to beat the run - Sword hall in Mirk comes to mind - the only solution was for me to tank in OP to add to our DPS output - this worked like a charm and i now switch to OP quite a bit during runs when A. we need more DPS to win or B. we got it down and I switch to OP to speed the killing up and C. I want to show off and get back at all the toons who have been laughing at my damage for the last 65 levels - a traited guard in OP has the 3rd highest DPS in the game - period!

It is a bear to work on the skills all at once - and in a perfect world we work on them as we level - but its totally do-able to catch up after the fact and you will come to love it.... but still I prefer to roll S&B most of the time and only whip out the two hander when i feel frosty

Good luck
D

PS yes it is evil - as in evil wicked cool lol

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Originally Posted by Dwarendele

... and C. I want to show off and get back at all the toons who have been laughing at my damage for the last 65 levels - a traited guard in OP has the 3rd highest DPS in the game - period!

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Keep mum about this, or someone might start a campaign to get OP nerfed...

Evandale summed it up perfectly! (+rep to you!)

Work those traits and become familiar with those skills... there are a few times when you will really need them! ( In the Ost Donhoth wound wing, in the "gauntlet-style" race you could potentially get your raid wiped if you sword and board... it is a straight up DPS race and every bit of FAST damage is vital...)

How sustainable is power going all out in OP?

I can not stress this enough:

Go with what you prefer to play and don't let anyone change your mind over it. I, personally, am not a fan of OP. I feel it is much more keeping with the dwarven appeal of an axe and shield. Some prefer the 2haxe, both are good.

If you don't enjoy OP, as I don't, being able to kick out a ???? ton of DPS is not going to do you one bit of good. If I want to use a 2h weapon (And I do sometimes) I jump on my champion. Someone who is not having fun, just does not do their job well.

If your instance run is plod, hit key, plod, hit key, hit key, turn, sigh, hit key, sign, plod ... well you get the point.

So long as you are holding aggro, tell anyone who tells you "Thats the wrong way to do it" to piss off.. or let them and them only die a few times ~.^

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Originally Posted by horus418

How sustainable is power going all out in OP?

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There are several different routes to managing it...be it through power restore legacies / cost reductions and/or traiting...careful rotations to include use of power restore skills at times for maximal effect. Takes some knowledge and experience but is very doable...burgs and rk's seem to have more trouble than me going all-out dps during 3-mans.

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Originally Posted by NamelessZombie

being able to kick out a ???? ton of DPS is not going to do you one bit of good

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That's not really true -> refer to my first post.

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Originally Posted by Zaestro

There are several different routes to managing it...be it through power restore legacies / cost reductions and/or traiting...careful rotations to include use of power restore skills at times for maximal effect. Takes some knowledge and experience but is very doable...burgs and rk's seem to have more trouble than me going all-out dps during 3-mans.

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Yea, other than in large AoE fights where you get a tonne of parrys, your power will drop fairly quickly; however if you use the power restore trait + use TTH & ToD frequently, and eat food often, you can usually get by without running out of power too much. And fights go so much quicker anyway, so your power doesn't need to last all that long :p.

We're definitely better at power management than Burgs (except maybe Burgs with the full DN set), and seem to be about equal with Hunters.

Of course with enough rallying crys you can last indefinitely.

Thanks for the info.

So, in order to keep up power in OP you have to have aggro for reactives, is that right?

Rallying cries are a power chuggers dream. :p

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Originally Posted by horus418

Thanks for the info.

So, in order to keep up power in OP you have to have aggro for reactives, is that right?

Rallying cries are a power chuggers dream. :p

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Agree on rally cries...and yes, having parries come in freely (and proc'ing power restores, if you go that route) helps sustain dps with less power consumption...but not absolutely necessary. FO is a power hog, comparatively, especially if it is BPE'd anyway sometimes...but we get by :)

Just to scale out the kind of power consumption curve, I offer my experience using OP mode to beat down the cauldron in Northcotton Farms. We're doing this tier 2 style - no buckets thrown on the fire - so you're racing the clock with your DPS. I usually have to use one power potion in that fight. Of course, you can assume our captain isn't getting any Rallying Cries because the only thing that dies is the cauldron at the end. Oddly, you DO get parry chains in this fight - not sure exactly how that works - and you can trigger them with Force Opening if you need. My power pool is roughly 2500 give or take.

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Originally Posted by Dwarendele

Just like you i ignored OP till i hit 65 and started to do instances for end game gear - i found that there was a few 3-man instances where depending on your party make-up we didn't have enough DPS to beat the run - Sword hall in Mirk comes to mind - the only solution was for me to tank in OP to add to our DPS output - this worked like a charm and i now switch to OP quite a bit during runs when A. we need more DPS to win or B. we got it down and I switch to OP to speed the killing up and C. I want to show off and get back at all the toons who have been laughing at my damage for the last 65 levels - a traited guard in OP has the 3rd highest DPS in the game - period!

It is a bear to work on the skills all at once - and in a perfect world we work on them as we level - but its totally do-able to catch up after the fact and you will come to love it.... but still I prefer to roll S&B most of the time and only whip out the two hander when i feel frosty

Good luck
D

PS yes it is evil - as in evil wicked cool lol

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Guardians do not have the 3rd highest DPS in the game. Hunters/RK/Champs are top 3 and you have to consider power issues, DPS over time ect.

OP/2h is great for soloing. I only pull out the shield and go into Block stance if I get in trouble.

OP/2h is great for an off-tank. The cool thing is you are an insurance policy for your fellowship in case the main tank gets in trouble.

The notion that Guardians don't do much DPS is hogwash. Read Forohir's guide. Use his method. Properly set up and played, an OP/2h Guardian can do tremendous damage. One of the great debates that is sure to start a flame-fest is whether a Guardian played this way can out-DPS a Champion on single targets. Compared to most Champions, it is true.

OP/2h is handy for a main tank to use, at the end of a battle when you are all whacking on one remaining mob and you have already established a solid aggro lock.

OP/2h is great for a main tank to use if your group is cutting down trash mobs.

OP/2h is a poor way to main tank and try to establish, and maintain aggro. Guardians who 'always tank in OP' are fooling themselves and endangering their fellowships.

A person can get completely carried away with gear and trait changes. I try to keep it simple (going against my nature in the process). I see my primary job as being a main tank and all of my gear, traits, skill choices and rotations, and playstyle is focused towards being the best main tank I can be. I use ONE Guardian Belt, one 1h sword, and one 2h sword. The traits I normally run around in are for maximum effectiveness while main tanking. I can switch from sword & shield to OP/2h quickly in combat as necessary This setup provides flexibility and a good deal of damage output.

Sometimes I will trait all-DPS for soloing and very occasionally stay traited this way in a fellowship, if I am providing DPS only and don't expect to main tank at all. My damage ouput is noticeably higher than being traited for main tanking and being in OP/2h. And then to flip it, when setup this way and soloing someplace tough like Urugarth, I will occasionally pull out my shiled, not to tank but to protect myself and heal up before going OP/2h again to finish the fight.

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Originally Posted by chazcon3

OP/2h is great for soloing. I only pull out the shield and go into Block stance if I get in trouble.

OP/2h is great for an off-tank. The cool thing is you are an insurance policy for your fellowship in case the main tank gets in trouble.

The notion that Guardians don't do much DPS is hogwash. Read Forohir's guide. Use his method. Properly set up and played, an OP/2h Guardian can do tremendous damage. One of the great debates that is sure to start a flame-fest is whether a Guardian played this way can out-DPS a Champion on single targets. Compared to most Champions, it is true.

OP/2h is handy for a main tank to use, at the end of a battle when you are all whacking on one remaining mob and you have already established a solid aggro lock.

OP/2h is great for a main tank to use if your group is cutting down trash mobs.

OP/2h is a poor way to main tank and try to establish, and maintain aggro. Guardians who 'always tank in OP' are fooling themselves and endangering their fellowships.

A person can get completely carried away with gear and trait changes. I try to keep it simple (going against my nature in the process). I see my primary job as being a main tank and all of my gear, traits, skill choices and rotations, and playstyle is focused towards being the best main tank I can be. I use ONE Guardian Belt, one 1h sword, and one 2h sword. The traits I normally run around in are for maximum effectiveness while main tanking. I can switch from sword & shield to OP/2h quickly in combat as necessary This setup provides flexibility and a good deal of damage output.

Sometimes I will trait all-DPS for soloing and very occasionally stay traited this way in a fellowship, if I am providing DPS only and don't expect to main tank at all. My damage ouput is noticeably higher than being traited for main tanking and being in OP/2h. And then to flip it, when setup this way and soloing someplace tough like Urugarth, I will occasionally pull out my shiled, not to tank but to protect myself and heal up before going OP/2h again to finish the fight.

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A) If you are out dpsing a Champ against a single target, they aren't very good (or maybe you have SB and they don't). Even if you are out dpsing them against a single target, then they can always go trait CBR...

I'm so sick of people making statements based on flawed perceptions. If you wanna make claims about relative dps, use freaking meters, and use them lots. Then come back and make an educated post instead of pure guesswork.

B) Go read my first post in this thread. There is nothing wrong with traiting 5 red for all non-raid content - in fact, you may as well trait this way by default because its better most of the time. Also, if you don't generate more threat in OP than you do in Block stance, then you are very very very bad at using it.

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Originally Posted by chazcon3

A person can get completely carried away with gear and trait changes. I try to keep it simple (going against my nature in the process). I see my primary job as being a main tank and all of my gear, traits, skill choices and rotations, and playstyle is focused towards being the best main tank I can be. I use ONE Guardian Belt, one 1h sword, and one 2h sword. The traits I normally run around in are for maximum effectiveness while main tanking. I can switch from sword & shield to OP/2h quickly in combat as necessary This setup provides flexibility and a good deal of damage output.

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The above quote from a guard that has not hit level cap yet, is a perfect example of the "self-justifying" that people do to try to avoid the work of setting up specific builds and LI's for OP play, for survival tanking and for max-threat tanking. I have 6 keeper LI's, two for each specific purpose...also setting myself up for cross-swaps of LI's for increasing duration of some cd's across the builds without having to "waste" a legacy slot mutliple times that is easily reusable. One should trait for purpose as well.

Any less would be to self-nerf / self-limit from reaching our fullest capacities...there is no justification beyond laziness.

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Originally Posted by Evendale

B) Go read my first post in this thread. There is nothing wrong with traiting 5 red for all non-raid content - in fact, you may as well trait this way by default because its better most of the time. Also, if you don't generate more threat in OP than you do in Block stance, then you are very very very bad at using it.

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All I can say to this ridiculous blather is: I'm so sick of people making statements based on flawed perceptions. If you wanna make claims about relative aggro, use freaking meters, and use them lots. Then come back and make an educated post instead of pure guesswork.

It's a FACT that you cannot perform the function of a Main Tank in OP stance better than or even equal to a Guard in Block, Threat, or even Parry stance. Period. Foolish waste of energy, all the epeen about OP tanking.

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Originally Posted by Zaestro

The above quote from a guard that has not hit level cap yet, is a perfect example of the "self-justifying" that people do to try to avoid the work of setting up specific builds and LI's for OP play, for survival tanking and for max-threat tanking. I have 6 keeper LI's, two for each specific purpose...also setting myself up for cross-swaps of LI's for increasing duration of some cd's across the builds without having to "waste" a legacy slot mutliple times that is easily reusable. One should trait for purpose as well.

Any less would be to self-nerf / self-limit from reaching our fullest capacities...there is no justification beyond laziness.

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lol I LOVE these posts. Empowered by the knowledge of how to look up a poster's level, the self-righteous boldly attempt to discredit said poster based on a combination of blind assumption and ignorance.

But of course, how could you possibly know that I have played LOTRO for four years and have leveled more Guardians alone that you have characters?

You admitted in another thread you were only level 58 as you claimed to have never had engage resist.

Also, you have been famously spouting ill-conceived and ill-informed information in short-term bursts ever since i have been participating in the forum...posting heavily for a week or two: e-peen, inaccuracies and intentionally inflammatory "blather" as you so eloquently put it...then disappearing for weeks or months in between.

That is all that I need to know. Playing the game alone does not intelligence, skill or correct knowledge bestow.

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Originally Posted by chazcon3

All I can say to this ridiculous blather is: I'm so sick of people making statements based on flawed perceptions. If you wanna make claims about relative aggro, use freaking meters, and use them lots. Then come back and make an educated post instead of pure guesswork.

It's a FACT that you cannot perform the function of a Main Tank in OP stance better than or even equal to a Guard in Block, Threat, or even Parry stance. Period. Foolish waste of energy, all the epeen about OP tanking.

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That is such fail rhetoric. Clearly meters can be used for dps (and are the only way to measure dps output very accurately), whereas who has aggro is directly observable in game. That's all that needs to be said about that. State inaccurate information as if you know it to be fact and you will be shut down. Recognize your uncertainty when stating inaccurate information, and people will politely correct you.

The developers of this game have made it easier to generate threat in OP stance than in Block/Parry stance. That's just the way the game is designed. They don't want it to be too easy for tanks.

Generating threat isn't the only function of a tanking Guard.

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Originally Posted by chazcon3

OP/2h is great for soloing. I only pull out the shield and go into Block stance if I get in trouble.

OP/2h is great for an off-tank. The cool thing is you are an insurance policy for your fellowship in case the main tank gets in trouble.

The notion that Guardians don't do much DPS is hogwash. Read Forohir's guide. Use his method. Properly set up and played, an OP/2h Guardian can do tremendous damage. One of the great debates that is sure to start a flame-fest is whether a Guardian played this way can out-DPS a Champion on single targets. Compared to most Champions, it is true.

OP/2h is handy for a main tank to use, at the end of a battle when you are all whacking on one remaining mob and you have already established a solid aggro lock.

OP/2h is great for a main tank to use if your group is cutting down trash mobs.

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Yes.

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OP/2h is a poor way to main tank and try to establish, and maintain aggro. Guardians who 'always tank in OP' are fooling themselves and endangering their fellowships.

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No. You can generate more aggro than while in block. There are also many instances in which its better that not everything is hitting one person and you're better off having things die faster to get more rallying cries rolling in (Lost Temple, any 6-man run with just cappy heals, ALL 3-mans, imo). Guardians who refuse to ever tank in OP are fooling themselves, unnecessarily slowing down many runs, and, in certain fights, endangering their fellowships.

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A person can get completely carried away with gear and trait changes. I try to keep it simple (going against my nature in the process). I see my primary job as being a main tank and all of my gear, traits, skill choices and rotations, and playstyle is focused towards being the best main tank I can be. I use ONE Guardian Belt, one 1h sword, and one 2h sword. The traits I normally run around in are for maximum effectiveness while main tanking. I can switch from sword & shield to OP/2h quickly in combat as necessary This setup provides flexibility and a good deal of damage output.

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If you're going to overpower tank anything you should absolutely not trait for S/B tanking so that, on the occasions that you switch to block for a little bit, you are most effective. The difference between trying to overpower tank things with yellows and blues vs 5 reds + cap is much greater than the difference between trying to S/B tank things with 5 reds + cap vs yellows and blues.

If you're going to spend 75% of the instance in block, sure, trait for block. However, like I said above, I don't think this is ideal for numerous scenarios.


edited off the ending due to unnecessary hostility. it was early, idk...

I have ran in OP from a very early lvl.... 30ish?

Finaly at lvl 65 and end game I find myself having time to go back and get my counts up for shield-taunt and fray the edge for my trait sets..... no lie:)

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All I can say to this ridiculous blather is: I'm so sick of people making statements based on flawed perceptions. If you wanna make claims about relative aggro, use freaking meters, and use them lots. Then come back and make an educated post instead of pure guesswork.

It's a FACT that you cannot perform the function of a Main Tank in OP stance better than or even equal to a Guard in Block, Threat, or even Parry stance. Period. Foolish waste of energy, all the epeen about OP tanking.

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I find it really funny that you picked the person you picked, and told them to go try parsing stuff on their OP guard. Not sure you could have picked a worse choice there. Just saying.

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FACT

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Lol.

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Main Tank

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Please define the role of Main Tank for me. Do you mean, simply holding aggro? Do you mean holding aggro and surviving? What specific jobs do you consider blending together to make the role of Main Tank?

My definition is that the main tank needs to be able to hold aggro on stuff the squishier members of the group cannot survive having aggro on, and to be not-squishy enough to survive that aggro as well. In addition, a main tank, if both of those is fulfilled, should be further adding to the group, through additional dps to speed up the run, or iutility jobs(interrupts, CR), or self heals to allow the healer to dps/buff and speed up the run. An OP guard can certainly hold aggro as well as, if not better than a block stance guard, as proven by the better guards out there. An OP guard is certainly not-squishy enough to survive tanking, as proven by them tanking the majority of the content in the game. An OP guard can certainly perform all the utility of a SnB guard, and additionally put out much higher dps. Why exactly can an OP guard not match a SnB guard as a tank?

Really you folks need to get out more. Attempting to discredit me because you don't agree is an entire sub-game unto itself, isn't it? And even Evandale, mighty number cruncher, missing my sarcasm and going off on a wild goose-chase cracks me up.

People, relax. You are far too obsessed with black and white and are missing all the shades of gray. Just accept the fact that I am right, hang your heads down and get back to grinding. Who gave you permission to speak anyway?

Isn't it time yet to hibernate again for a few weeks/months...before the next round of misinformation and e-peen tomfoolery?

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Originally Posted by Evendale

Having said that, I generally feel that if they're in anything other than Red for a regular instance, I can be pretty sure they're not gonna be as good as I'd hope.

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Originally Posted by bitznarf

You an I clearly have 2 very different opinions on the role of a guardian in a group.

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Originally Posted by Evendale

Ok lets say a very good Champ or Hunter then (I guess we have different views on what constitutes decent), who is trying to output high dps without giving you a lead.

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Either that or you are underestimating what a yellow traited guard can do.

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Originally Posted by Evendale

And refer to: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...80#post5313280.

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Moving to an appropriate thread.

In my opinion the role of a guardian (in *very* broad terms) in group content is to minimize the amount of healing that is required. With that in mind, I'd like to take a look at traiting red vs. yellow for the new instances. I'm presuming the rest of the group are quality characters/players.

3/6 man content

• NCF & SH: I still trait yellow line here because I have met some very bad captains in PUGs. I'd rather not die from lack of heals.
• LT: You've said "you will die if you pull all the aggro and don't kite/pledge/kill stuff fast anyway regardless of whether or not you have a shield out." From personal experience I don't believe this. I tank it in yellow line with a shield and I don't die. I don't have to kite, I don't have to pledge every time. Perhaps this just speaks to the quality of the healers but I do know that the group as a whole requires less healing than if I was in OP traited red line. For the final boss, if the extra DPS from traiting red line and going OP is required to kill the adds fast enough, then the rest of the group doesn't have enough DPS. Thus, I prefer yellow for the whole instance.
• SS: You have a point with Coldbear, but for the rest of the instance I'll stick with being able to block. IMO no clear winner here.

Ost Dunhoth

• Wound: If there is only 1 guard in the group, he needs the extra defence from yellow line IMO. If the guard is tanking the adds rather than the mammoths, agreed, red line is better due to the DPS race nature of Challenge Mode.
• Disease: If the rest of the group cannot kill these trees fast enough without the guard traiting red line, they are doing it wrong. Thus I focus on the actual potential dangerous portions of the fight when the bog lurkers have spawned. The extra defence here from having a shield is enormously useful, taking a lot of strain off of the healers. Yellow line wins.
• Poison: You're either main tanking or tank swapping. If the rest of the group doesn't have enough DPS on Frothmar to finish him within 10 minutes, without you traited red line, your group is doing it wrong. Trait yellow.
• Fear: You're main tank swapping. Trait yellow.
• Ivar and Gortheron: if you have two guards, sure one can go OP and trait red line. Otherwise yellow.

As I understand it the core of your contention for traiting red line is this so I will address it directly:

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Additionally, you gain a lot of dps from red traits, and gain comparatively very minimal survivability from yellow traits. When you're better off using a shield, aggro is rarely (if ever) an issue, so blue line is usually wasted.

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The times when the extra DPS is useful I've noted above. Anytime when you would be using a shield off and on the extra DPS is not needed. In raids when using a shield by traiting 5 yellow 2 blue your aggro while using a shield is much higher than your aggro when traited 5 red and using a shield. This difference allows DPS classes to do more DPS without pulling aggro. As for yellow line's extra survive-ability, you're right it isn't a huge amount but it is still noticeable. Having 4700 melee crit defence and 4200 elsewhere is nothing to turn your nose up at; spike damage is one of the most dangerous things for a tank and this helps mitigate those risks. Never needing to take a power pot or receive power from a lore-master is handy but not required. Just a convenience I suppose but me and my 300 ICPR like it.

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No, you actually generate a tonne more threat in OP (especially AoE threat, but also single target). Going Litany Master + Threat Stance is the only way to compete with the threat gen of OP.

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Agreed. However you do take more damage doing so.

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Yup, you don't take all that much damage in OP because:
a) You put the Stagger debuff on mobs a large proportion of the time (even from in front just due to crits)
b) You use TTK frequently which stun locks most bosses for a non trivial amount of time
c) A lot of mobs put out b/p/e debuffs, etc.
d) Pledge makes you near invincible regardless of stance.
e) You kill things MUCH faster

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The last time I traited red line on a regular basis was back when I was still doing the repeatables out of Thanghulad. If memory serves when I would go up against mobs like the Uruk signatures, I would come out of those fights with more morale and power when using a shield and traited yellow than using OP and traited red line. Did things die faster in OP? Of course, but I also took more damage. For instances captains had a much easier time keeping everyone alive in Sword Halls and Warg Pens when I was traited yellow rather than red, and that's my whole goal as a tank. It's to make things easy. Slow and easy is still easy.

Re LT: The Debuff stacks up to 5. Maybe if you have a HoH Capt and a Minstrel you might be able to live without waiting for pledge between each pull, but otherwise you're probably not holding as much aggro as you think... (or using a lot of CC or something)

Re raiding: I was pointing out the times when you should "use" OP in instances/raids, not when you should "trait for" OP. I'm basically always traited five yellow in OD (except for wound, or when not tanking Ivar or Gortheron). You kinda side-stepped the whole point there by talking about raiding throughout your entire post, because obviously raids are a different game altogether.

Re damage taken: Consider that one Disable/Fire Lore will reduce the damage you take by more than you lose from switching from Shield to OP. If a healer can keep you up with a shield on, they can almost always keep you up while in OP as well.



So I don't really disagree with much else that you said. If you and your whole group value slow and easy, then in many cases you may as well trait yellows. But consider the points below:

It's funny (ok, hilarious) that you talk about the quality of the healers you group with and yet you're unwilling to trait red because it would make their job too hard :p.

Extra DPS is always useful (if you value time at all). Extra survivability is only useful if you have a group of six people who don't care about time, and only care about easyness (see below).

And most importantly, everything you've said is marred by the fact that you think you can hold aggro with five yellow traits. The simple fact is that unless you group with people who are either (a) bad, or (b) very mild mannered, gracious, & patient, you are going to spend most of the time in a regular instance sitting there feeling like a nub while the champs/hunters have all the aggro (if you're traited five yellows).

Like Zaestro said in the other thread, for regular instances, its GT or OP or go home.

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Originally Posted by Evendale

Re LT: The Debuff stacks up to 5. Maybe if you have a HoH Capt and a Minstrel you might be able to live without waiting for pledge between each pull, but otherwise you're probably not holding as much aggro as you think... (or using a lot of CC or something)
...
Re damage taken: Consider that one Disable/Fire Lore will reduce the damage you take by more than you lose from switching from Shield to OP. If a healer can keep you up with a shield on, they can almost always keep you up while in OP as well.
...
It's funny (ok, hilarious) that you talk about the quality of the healers you group with and yet you're unwilling to trait red because it would make their job too hard :p.

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My point with the healer comment was that I was willing to consider good healing as the reason I don't need panic buttons fighting trash in LT when I hold aggro on all the mobs. As for CC, of course there is CC. Mobs getting stunned on a regular basis by LMs/champs being one of the most effective ones IMO. Lastly, while a healer may be able to keep me up in OP, my job is to make their life easier, not harder.

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Originally Posted by Evendale

Re raiding: I was pointing out the times when you should "use" OP in instances/raids, not when you should "trait for" OP. I'm basically always traited five yellow in OD (except for wound, or when not tanking Ivar or Gortheron). You kinda side-stepped the whole point there by talking about raiding throughout your entire post, because obviously raids are a different game altogether.

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If you scroll up you may notice that I addressed the new 3/6 man instances. For 3 of the 4 I agreed with you that traiting OP will work just fine for the most part.

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Extra DPS is always useful (if you value time at all). Extra survivability is only useful if you have a group of six people who don't care about time, and only care about easyness (see below).

And most importantly, everything you've said is marred by the fact that you think you can hold aggro with five yellow traits. The simple fact is that unless you group with people who are either (a) bad, or (b) very mild mannered, gracious, & patient, you are going to spend most of the time in a regular instance sitting there feeling like a nub while the champs/hunters have all the aggro (if you're traited five yellows).

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I'd appreciate it if you didn't insult my intelligence and the skills of other players on Brandywine. Maybe you used to be on Brandywine in times past and have played with the DPS over here, I don't know. You haven't run with me. I hold aggro using 5 yellows when playing with good DPS players. What metric would you consider appropriate given that we play on different servers?

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Originally Posted by bitznarf

I'd appreciate it if you didn't insult my intelligence and the skills of other players on Brandywine. Maybe you used to be on Brandywine in times past and have played with the DPS over here, I don't know. You haven't run with me. I hold aggro using 5 yellows when playing with good DPS players. What metric would you consider appropriate given that we play on different servers?

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Sorry if you felt I was insulting you.

If anything I was stating that you must be a much better player than the people you play with (if you can hold aggro in yellows).

But I did acknowledge the possibility that the people you play with are just very patient. Maybe I just group with egotistical impatient DPSers.


If I can't hold aggro in 5 yellows and you can, that means that either:
(a) I'm bad
(b) Your DPSers are bad
(c) You're exaggerating greatly with what you mean by "hold aggro"

I'm picking (b)/(c), but if you think its (a), we can hold different opinions and call it a day.

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Originally Posted by Evendale

we can hold different opinions and call it a day.

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Sounds like a deal.

I'm going with option D: e-peen nonsense and ego investment coloring perceptions.

Even cruddy champs spamming certain skills without control and/or ebbing, will rip aggro from ANY guard traited 5 yellows in block stance, especially if we are talking about multiple targets.

I am going to be direct...anyone claiming anything else is not telling the truth...whether that may be genuinely unawares as to fooling him/herself, or with full intent by posting same here and knowing better.

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Originally Posted by Zaestro

I'm going with option D: e-peen nonsense and ego investment coloring perceptions.

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If you consider 'all the mobs are attacking the guard' to be coloured perception then sure, guilty.

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Originally Posted by Zaestro

Even cruddy champs spamming certain skills without control and/or ebbing, will rip aggro from ANY guard traited 5 yellows in block stance, especially if we are talking about multiple targets.

I am going to be direct...anyone claiming anything else is not telling the truth...whether that may be genuinely unawares as to fooling him/herself, or with full intent by posting same here and knowing better.

Last edited by Zaestro; Today at 09:25 PM. Reason: ooooo....Brandywine!!!!...that is SOooooo instructive...actually explains a lot!

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Whatever that skill is, either the champs on my server do not do as you describe or you are wrong. Your backhand insults are not appreciated, nor the crack at Brandywine, whatever that comment is actually about.

mmmhmmm...very convincing. As for the Brandywine thing...people from your server are pretty famous for touting that fact as some form of de facto evidence of merit. Your having done just that and not even realizing that you have done so, goes along with my choice D conclusion about skewed e-peen and untruth.

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Originally Posted by Zaestro

mmmhmmm...very convincing. As for the Brandywine thing...people from your server are pretty famous for touting that fact as some form of de facto evidence of merit. Your having done just that and not even realizing that you have done so, goes along with my choice D conclusion about skewed e-peen and untruth.

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I don't consider playing on Brandywine to be any form of special merit. What I have done is attempt to defend un-involved people from slander. I would appreciate it if you would stop your personal attacks.

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Originally Posted by bitznarf

I don't consider playing on Brandywine to be any form of special merit.

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Glad to hear it. There is nothing personal in telling you that your position smacks of e-peen and is false.

Moving this off thread. Sorry folks.

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Originally Posted by Zaestro

mmmhmmm...very convincing. As for the Brandywine thing...people from your server are pretty famous for touting that fact as some form of de facto evidence of merit. Your having done just that and not even realizing that you have done so, goes along with my choice D conclusion about skewed e-peen and untruth.

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Brandywine is one of the highest population servers. It's going to have more "bad apples" purely due to the fact that it's a bigger orchard. Assuming anyone who mentions they're from BW is an epeener is just stupid.

I'm going to close this thread as I think the OP's question has been answered, but there's one thing I'd like to point out before doing so.

It's perfectly fine to debate opinions on the game's statistics and your personal play styles. However, it is not fine to begin personally attacking others while you do so. This involves insulting their intelligence, calling them "fail" or "bad," or insulting them in any other matter. Doing so is a violation of the community guidelines.