Who will be working on the Guardian changes, assuming we might see some? It would be nice to see whats going on with them and to have some feedback on changes like the Champs are doing. :)
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Who will be working on the Guardian changes, assuming we might see some? It would be nice to see whats going on with them and to have some feedback on changes like the Champs are doing. :)
Same over @ the warden forum. Lets see some love for the tanks.
Havent your heard champs will now be viable tanks with good dps time to reroll imo.
.../signedQuote:
Originally Posted by Assassin12
They won't make the same mistake again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin12
Will they? :(
It really does sound very ominous...oh well...maybe it is time for me to reclaim "real life living" again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin12
i only read the first post of the champion thread, so unless theres something new what is different about champs tanking in glory?
Overpower > GloryQuote:
Originally Posted by Assassin12
Glory is losing its damage reduction and champs dont have as many power problems in glory as guards do in OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brayden
Maybe fix the bleed issue (if it is one). Don't wanna say anything about the balance of things tho, to make other guards unpleased lol.
Maybe they will just admit the Guardian class was a mistake from the get-go and allow us a class change to Champs. Then we can stop hoping and praying that there's one or two bosses in each new raid which actually requires our presence.
I feel you...I read the the notes from Orion the exact same way. Who knows if they have anything at all planned for us in the next 2 yrs or so (my semi-facetious estimate of when guards will see anything, if ever)...but after some movement in the right direction from SoM on -- on the heals of correcting some things after introducing what in all honesty was an unneeded direct competitor in wardens (sorry bro shield bearers...but it is truth) while ironically and simultaneously removing ANY need for either of these two head-to-head competitors in Moria...to now again and even more directly facilitating what sounds to be pure "dps tanking" -- by what was originally supposed to be only a "secondary" or "off-tank." I predict without reserve that champs are going to become the preferred "tank" again (just like moria), supplanting each of the already needlessly competing "mains" once more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solien
I dunno...as said, maybe it will just be time to just move on...not trying to be "chicken little"...but history doth tend to repeat itself...I will stick it out to see, but can tell you I will not have the patience to weather another negligently created situation like we suffered in Moria.
Only if I get to stay a hobbit if so big YES as i only rolled the guard cause its the closest thing to a hobbit champion lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Solien
I, however, won't give into the doom and gloom as quickly as that.
Orion's information to the Champions has only been announced, and the changes are flagged to be for the Expansion. That's a long time away -- a long enough time away that I'm still holding a steadfast belief that Guardians will have their own Dev attention given in a similar fashion.
Orion's blog post says that Glory allows Champs to tank how they play - that is, with heavy-hitting, high DPS rotations. And somehow it allows them to do this and survive without using a shield. So, they get big survivability boosts and will, apparently, still do good damage. Depending on the magnitude of each (damage and survivability) they could easily overtake GRDs and WRDs as they currently stand. It will depend on the GRD/WRD updates how New Glory affects us, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by gakj3
You completely negated some of the bigger variables; power, morale, hate generation abilities, damage mitigation/resistances, etc etc. Just because champ has the ability to 'tank' in some situations through damage does not mean they'll take the 'main tank role' in any form. Champ doesn't have the aggro generation ability or resistance/avoidances[or the morale pool] to take on larger encounters. The changes proposed for champs isn't to make them into a full-on tank, it's to make them a more solid tank for small man situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by ANewMachine
We'll see about power. Morale and mitigation must be increased to sufficient levels to allow them to tank at all, so we can presume that'll be OK. And unless they drastically change Rising Ire, Champs will still be able to out-aggro every other class in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starrywisdom
What class is ever technically *required* in a raid?Quote:
Originally Posted by Solien
I mean, I wouldn't want to do Ivar without Captains, but I wouldn't really want to do most fights without a Guard either.
Here's a quote from that thread in the Champ forums. If you've followed this forum for any length of time you've seen many posts by SaintBass:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brayden
If a Champ can switch between good single target DPS, good AoE DPS, and good tanking simply by toggling stances, then Guardians and Wardens are reduced to hoping that there's one or two boss fights in each new raid where Champ tanking won't be good enough. You've already got people Champ tanking nearly all of OD (tier 2 HM's).Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintBass
OK since they are mentioning glory mode over there lets all go over there and crash that thread (without being negative) and see if we can get a response about how that a. affects guardians, and b. what changes they will be doing to us to compensate.. knowing when that takes place would be nice as well...
where were all the "im never going to play my guard again" guards when champs could fervor tank anything and everything, even blind one hard mode?
yawn lol
They were rolling champs or were sidelined entirely begging for spots.Quote:
Originally Posted by gakj3
If you were not around in Moria when guards were shunned for groups, or have just forgotten what it was like...it sounds like you may get an unfortunate wake-up call in this respect, come the next champ update.
It will be interesting to hear, if this does evolve as badly as it sounds it could, whether people in this forum will still be "yawing" then...those guards who don't actually have champs as their mains on other servers, anyway.
*Shrug* So, in the absence of any numbers or specifics in that thread, one forum goer says that he won't play his guard anymore, and now the sky is falling? Where does it say that changing stances to glory will make a champ a full tank? Trait lines still exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solien
Personally, barring some pretty titanic changes to Glory, I will always prefer tanking on my Guard than I will on my champ simply because a guard plays much more fluidly in a tanking role than a champ does. That's not even talking about the better survivability, better cooldowns, and greater range of tools that my guard has it his disposal.
As long as Orion is doing the updates for both classes, I have very little worry about the future of guards.
Unless something has changed...herein lies your mistake: Graal does guards...Orion does champs and wards.Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
Duplicate post I made in champ forum:
I agree with this 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingtheo
I see the proposed change as ONLY pleasing those with mindsets and who feel strongly already that "champs are more efficient and more optimal"...those who intrinsically will care little for class balance or whether the designated "main tanks" are then left in the dust while champs carry forth as being as good at AoE and single target dps as ever -- PLUS then will also supplant via their secondary tanking role those who are SUPPOSED to be tanking as a primary.
This change will likely also do damage to those who already DO take advantage of what a champ can do with a shield now...approaching warden levels in soloability...likely limiting the avoidance and mitigation builds and soloing survivability for things that can't just be dps'd down. There are things that "even" a guard must be tank traited and max self-healing to kill, that just can't be beaten through and down in OP stance -- and I suspect this analysis would apply to the "new" glory champs.
Either the shieldless glory tank would be "weak" -- and since this proposal seems to cater to "champs are uber" thinking...I doubt this will be intended...or it would have to be envisioned that they will achieve some unwarranted levels of defensive buff, that will consequently jolt them way past the capabilities of guards and wards (who can't dual wield and must use shields to achieve these defensive abilities).
Moreover...if as an alternate to gaining "magical" crit defense and avoidances, etc., from the imagined ethers of traits absent shields, etc., champs could end up with some kind "healing factor" applied...think this was vaguely alluded to as well...this would then be encroaching equally improperly onto warden territory.
The only actually "reasonable" potential for this meandering shieldless glory tank proposition I can see (to other tanking classes) ...would then be very unfair to the current champs who enjoy shields and what already is great champ survivability: would be that a glory champ be greatly improved for holding aggro, but intentionally become significantly LESS defensive than they are at present. Hold before you flame...I will explain:
Have a threat over time reduction to fervour champs...allow them to still dangerously (to themselves) pull aggro initially and with incoming healing yet nerfed for stance (or even more nerfed) potentially kill themselves fast....but as to the ability to continuously "tank" by fervour stance: apply then a ramping up of threat debuff or some such. This would end fervour tanking and encourage (virtually require) the claimed goal of having champs USE glory stance when MEANT to tank. Others have posited this and I think I also may have "read between the lines" into some of what Orion blogged, that he may be considering that fervour aggro would thus be somehow limited or reduced despite be initially "noticed."
In my estimation, to avoid the other prospect of the glory champ becoming "too uber", it would have to intentionally KEEP the lowered crit defense and armor reduction, necessitated and implied in dropping a shield (no magical stance buffing). In addition to gaining some signifcant aggro boosts via new skills or stance passives...glory stance, without the healing nerf of fervour, becomes far more sustainable and more easily healed, thus prefered for tanking 6-mans and as an off tank of adds, etc. (both for aggro and for healing without as much loss of dps). Capable OFF-TANKS, but still requiring more healing even in glory than would wardens and guards, due to the less defenses...this, so that wardens and guards are still preferred for endgame raids until things are on farm, etc.
That, imo, is the very definition and a properly encouraged use of glory stance for what has only ever been a secondary role and NON-MAIN tanking use of champ -- which is what a champ is, was and always should be. Viable...but NOT optimal as a tank.
I fully expect people will NOT accept being less than "optimal," even in a secondary roll...but please advise as to what guards and wardens would then be optimal for...behind champs in dps in our secondary roles...and at serious jeopardy in main tanking unless champ tanks with their greater dps are then made WEAKER defensively, by intention.
Anything OTHER than this -- or preferable to ALL of us imo (guards, wards and current shield-using champs)...just some milder tweaks to the current tanking status quo -- is going to break tanking. Champs are better at single target dps...better at AoE dps...and if still rocking high dps, double wielding and matching crit defense, armor and potentially morale (people asking for 5 per point of vit in this thread, mind you) while in glory...why will anyone play a guard ??? Is this desired by the devs,and not just champ fanboi's,,,really??...w'tf!
I already KNOW this will not be satisfactory to the 'excited' champs already positing requisite major crit defense and armor buffs magically working into the "new" glory stance without shields, but people need to get over the knee-jerk excitement of having more dps and double wielding and/or 2hnding glory with increased dps and potentially defenses, and look at the bigger picture. People need to recognize the huge balancing issues, and how this will be a monumental step backward to a time and place that tanking WAS truly broken...once you push past the simplistic "fun" and surface appeal, and give a broader and more critical analysis.
This is a big mistake Orion...and I urge a correction and "doh" palm to the skull moment to strike you sooner rather than later, before people inexorably get worked up over a BAD prospect, that diverging from it later will be that much more difficult.
Fun thought conceptually...rife with too many potentially game breaking (as far as tanking anyway) and terrible ramifications for implementation.
Your tirade is basically structured as follows:
1) Champions will be better tanks than Guardians.
2) If Champions are better tanks than Guardians, but the game paradigm stays otherwise unaltered, then <over nine thousand bad things happen>
On the other hand, we don't know that champs will tank equally while putting out better dps, and we also don't know what's in store for guardians. They might turn our shield into an ST DPS carnage machine for all we know. The only piece of circumstantial evidence you have for your premise is that Hakai sucked at balancing guardians and champs. There's no data about the glory changes other than there's no more shield, and no more stance damage reduction. I could go over there and post in the thread that I want champs to have a 120 second stun along with the 5 morale per vit, but I'm willing to give you any odds you'd bet on that I won't get it.
I think I was cited as an example because I have been playing a Guardian for a long, long time. Maybe not the longest of all here but long enough to have retain a good institutional memory of the class. Long enough to point out design flaws with the class that were exacerbated with MoM launch, long enough to clearly describe the classes short-comings and strengths and long enough to have argued about the classes role and relative worth... it doesn't hurt that I post pretty prolifically as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
So, its not so much that my opinion has more value, but my opinion does tend to be very well informed. So yes, I am patiently awaiting information on Guardian, Champ and Hunter updates as they all interest me greatly, but I am not going to delete any of my toons on just a couple of hints that sound really awesome... and what little is known of the Champ changes are pretty awesome.
No. The sky isn't falling. I'll wait for more specifics about both the Champ and the Guard changes. But consider:Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
- A lot more people play Champs than Guards, at least as mains (no, I don't have numbers to back that up; I'm happy to go on faith that it's self-evident.)
- Guards have been hosed in the past (cf. Moria launch)
- Class changes don't address the fundamental problem with tanking in this game: nearly any class can do it outside of a few raid boss fights. We've already got two tanking classes in this game, one of which is not dependent on the cooperation of the rest of the group to do its job when played well, and now it appears that the most unpalatable aspects of Glory tanking (need for a shield and reduced damage output) have been removed. Right now I see no reason to think that a Champ traited for DPS who flips on Glory won't be a very good tank for the vast majority of content in the game.
But we'll see what changes are brought to the Guard class to make them a more viable part of group content.
Woah! Hang on a minute, Chicken Little! Those are not the words that I wrote. This is what I wrote:Quote:
Originally Posted by ANewMachine
"Champions should not follow the Guardian mode for tanking. They should not hide behind a shield, deal less damage, or sacrifice their game play. They should tank like a champion. They should use their skills in a rotation-based style of game play that allows them to mitigate damage, maintain threat, all while dishing out some savage beats.
Much of the tanking aspect of Champs will be pushed to the stance, with a moderate amount of skill revision or modification allowing for the rotation to mitigate the massive damage that Champions can output. What this means for Glory is as follows: no more damage reduction. Hit like a truck have fun! That is the goal of playing games after all, having fun! At the same time, understand that if all you do is hit things you are likely not going to survive. You will need to find the rotation that mimics the Champion game play as closely as possible."
I highlighted the areas of GREAT importance to all of the Guardians that are thinking we have some shadow conspiracy bent on making you worthless.
I have not created magical pixie dust that allows for champs to do all three of tanking, damage dealing, and threat generation. That would be a single-player game. We are not a single-player game. I am working toward a balanced approach to make them tanks that use Champion-style Game Play.
Guardians will also see some alteration and enhancement in the future, I am just focusing on getting info to the champs first.
I must admit, I read the blog about champions with quite a bit of fear and trepidation...part of me immediately started thinking, "Oh gosh here we go again, this is going to be just like Moria launch."
I don't even know who our guardian dev is anymore, but whoever it is (if it isn't Orion) better be talking closely with Orion, because there is the potential for this to go very, very badly for guardians. If champs get survivability and threat generation that is anywhere in the ballpark of guardians, while also being able to maintain anything closer to the DPS that they currently have, then that is going to be a bad, bad situation for guardians everywhere.
Been there, done that. Once before. I hope to god we aren't going down that road again...
If you're a Guardian and worried about the Champion tanking changes, just think.. You COULD be a Warden.
In order for it to be like Moria launch lots of other things would also have to change...Quote:
Originally Posted by MithrilSoul
- Physical DPS from ranged and melee LIs would have to go up almost 20%.
- Hunters would need to get full damage back on the last arrow of Improved Swift Bow, Quick Shot would do more damage, and Merciful Shot would have a larger crit multiplier again.
- +Melee Defense would have to change back to uncapped, percentage based -Melee Vulnerability%.
- Instance mobs would need to have their crit rates reduces; bosses would have to crit a lot less.
- In Harm's Way/Last Stand would need to be 100% absorb.
- Crowd control, specifically snares/roots, would need to work again on instance bosses.
- Every instance would need at least one glaring exploit that to one degree or another trivializes a boss fight. Some of these exploits need to allow you to keep an instance boss from dealing any damage at all, while others will let you skip parts of an instance or shut down parts of a specific fight.
- Guardians would need to have their skills resisted around 3x as often as they see today.
- Whirling Retaliation would not have a threat steal component (when traited accordingly).
- Guardian's Threat would have to again be broken.
Notice how most of that list has nothing to do with Guardians? There was a lot happening at Moria release that made Guardians an unnecessary choice for a fellowship. The exploits alone meant that the primary reason you want a Guardian, extra durability versus the hard hitting thing(s) in an instance, were a non-issue for anyone that took advantage of the holes. Why take a Guardian if you never have to tank anything other than trash mobs?
Class changes for Champs won't bring back those days.
Are you kidding? Of coarse anyone who doesn't agree with you either has an ulterior motive or doesn't care. Of coarse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
That's all well and good, but that doesn't make it any more than your basic forum hyperbole...Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintBass
And? Same is true with RKs and Minis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solien
EVERY class has been hosed in the past at some point or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solien
Is a guard fun to play?Quote:
Originally Posted by Solien
Is it viable? Not talking about optimal, just viable...
If those two things are true, I see the threat to shelve the class as silly.
Trying to state that a viable glory tank will marginalize guards because they are a more frequently played class is false. It's been proven time and time again across multiple games that just because someone plays a class that is capable of tanking (or healing) doesn't necessarily mean that they will be inclined to do so... "LFF for X. Need tank" will always exist, because there will always be people who don't want to take on the increased responsibility to the group that the tanking role requires. Likewise, easier content is exactly that: easier content. So what if the more accessible instances are more casual and inclusive... that's not a bad thing. There is no fierce competition for spots in these instances because... they're easy. You miss a group, there's another group forming behind it.
As long as guards are viable, they will be desired. Of coarse, "viability" shouldn't be enough. We should always want a LOT more for our favorite classes, so what could this class use in order to be optimal? What could we ask for that no other class has and can distinguish guards from the pack?
Tactical resistance/defense is an area in tanking that could be more robust. Sure, you can gear/virtue/LI for these things, but those are pretty universal things. There's room for one of the tank classes to be noticeably better at it than the other tanks. Guards already have some degree of specialization in this area with Stoic, ect., but there's a whole lot of room to make it more of "a guard thing" via trait line bonuses, an active skill, ect. It would take some tweaking on the encounter side to make a change like this into something meaningful but... encounter design is already heading that way. The tools are already there.
That is one of the things that I would ask for.
Those that know me know how excited I am for the Champ update. The new glory tank is exactly what I wanted for the Champ ever since I played a Death Knight in WoW.
Look, Champs, Wardens and Guards are, when its all said and done, fun to play. They do the same things though just in very different ways.
In my kin I know guys that play champs just to see big numbers. I know guys that play Guards and never OP because its not why they play guards. These aren't going to change because Champs can tank with out a shield.
Champs in kin aren't going to magically turn into tanks over night. Thats not why they play Champs. Now I personally, only have ever played a Champ because it was another option for me to tank. I play Warden kinda sorta, I play Guard when I have a chance to and I play Champ from time to time.
I've started to gear out my Champ now because I've always wanted to tank on Champ while staying in the same Champ gameplay that I find fun. As it stands right now a Champ with shield doesn't do it for me, so I play Guard instead.
But post update, Champs wont all be tanks. Guards wont all be outta jobs. They have work to do on all three tank classes to make sure they all have a spot. But its way too early to be getting concerned.
If you guys haven't read the Warden thread, Orion talks of better raid tanking and more dps. Should Guards be even more concerned? Or should we finally come to a conclusion that there are three tank classes and one might be better then the other for certain things?
Can you explain how this should make any Guardian feel better? Because as I read it, you're saying "no no no...Champions won't be Guards. They'll be tanks that still hit like Champions"...which would completely negate any need for Guards who hit like...well...Guards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
Allow me to make an attempt to explain:Quote:
Originally Posted by TUX426
Champion's tanking in Glory will play like Champions. When they hit as part of their rotation they will hit hard. They will, however, need to sacrifice hitting hard all the time by using skills that will allow them to a) survive, b) maintain threat, c) build their fervour back, d) maintain power.
Our goal is not to make the Champion the only tank that people choose. Our goal is to make the tank a viable option at tank, just like the Guardian and the Warden. Options are not bad. Good tanks, be they guardians, wardens or champions are going to be desired. It may not make you feel better, not sure, but our goals are not to make any one preferable over any other.
And this, in a nutshell, is the problem. Guardians were created to be "the tank" in Lotro. And then Wardens got added later, as another unasked for tanking option. Now you are implying that Champs will be on a comparable level to a Guardian as a tank. A 'primarily dps class' will now be able to tank as well as one of the designated 'tanking' classes. The 'tanks' should be preferable over a 'non tanking' class. What's next, to change Captains so that they can heal as well as Minstrels and RK's in any situation? Should no one be optimal at any one thing? Unless the changes, tweaks, enhancements to the Guardian class make us that much more desirable as tanks, once again Turbine is doing the Guardian class a grave disservice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
So... we have 9 different classes that, depending on how they're traited, boil down to 6 different roles - tank, dps, heals, cc, buffs, and debuffs - that they each do slightly differently, but to the same effect (particularly at higher levels).
Does that about sum it up?
No they are 'fixing' the problem in the first place. Champs have been tanks since day one. They have got a true tanking role in MoM. It just wasn't good enough to allow Champs to sit in Glory and tank with as much sucsess as Guards.Quote:
Originally Posted by SEAX
Wardens' were added in Moria and they do have issues that they hopefully will adress. They have never been as popular as they could be, as a tanking class that does it differently then Guards.
Bottom line, there has always been other options besides Guards, they just weren't very good options for ALL content. They were good options for some content.
I can only hope that we have three true options after these changes. Doing Guards a disservice? Stop playing the victim role. There are are Wardens and TANKING champs to consider too.
Yes and this shouldn't be news to anyone. There has always been a primary and secondary role for classes, some were clearer then others, some where good some were bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deusdictum
What penalty do they incur from running in a tanking stance such that they can't just jump out of glory (or stay in it but do a pure dps rotation) such that you would rather bring a gaurdian or at least bringing a gaurdian would be equal? Or are you going going to buff guardian dps so that is equal as well (not recommending this, just asking for further clarification).Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
My concern would be that it would become a duality like the RK, except without waiting for attunement to change.
EDIT: By the way, I've always thought that being able to switch to OP in a group and still tank fairly well wasn't fair to champs, but I suppose it depends on other factors.
No, no, and no. There were some promising blurbs for wardens from orion...but guards get a vague allusion to "some enhancements" at some undisclosed and likely uncoordinated time in the future...and have been waiting 18 months just for some minor niggling points to be addressed already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grampsaz
Guards "hide behind shields"...which would be demeaning for a champ to do...and champs are meant to "hit like trucks...." Got it! Am even more certain now than before that these concerns for MAIN tanks are valid.
There are NOT...or were not, anyway, three main tank classes. This update looks to make champs have "main" primary and secondary roles...with main tanks doing less dps and not preferred as "sub-optimal," and being secondary or worse in both roles.
This is the exact situation from Moria...the rest of the problems with other classes didn't help, but this was the crux of the problem that persists in threads and debates even to this day (optimality in raids...OD already being tanked by champs) despite "main tanking" being brought a long way in the proper direction from SoM on.
Very disappointing Orion.
Back in SoA, which is what I first referenced, Guardians were the preferred tanking class. Sure a glory Champ could do it, but it wasn't common that it happened and most champs I know weren't interested in that role, they wanted to dps. MoM did change things, and not for the better for Guardians. And no, I'm not too concerned about Champs or Wardens when posting about Guardian issues on the Guardian forums. I haven't been overwhelmed with the number or Wardens and Champions on their own forums worrying too much about the proposed changes and what it may mean for Guardians. And since tanking is a secondary function for Champs, if they can do it as well as my primary purpose Guardian, well that is an issue unless the Guardian tweaks mean that a Guard running in OP now does enough damage that groups would seriously consider taking an OP Guard as dps over a champ, then I won't have any issues with these changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grampsaz
Stop being a revisionist historian.
You are far more patient and reasonable than I am in the face of this impending smash to the face. Point is dead-on.Quote:
Originally Posted by SEAX
As someone whose original main is a minstrel.. if Captains could be a third main healer, awesome! If champs, wardens and guards can all tank hard content, I think that's great. Diversity should not be an obstacle. You have here three tanks who play very differently. You would have three healers who would presumably play very different (Captains would be much more in the thick of the fight, very different from minnies or RKs). You have DPS in hunters, champs, RKs that play very differently..Quote:
Originally Posted by SEAX
The fact is, until Champs really learn how to tank in their new role, they will be less desirable than Guardians. And we all know that playing with a GREAT Guardian is like nothing else.
But allowing other classes to fulfill the role is no bad thing. I don't want my friends to have to always rely on "Well, we don't have a minstrel, guess we can't do this." Think about how it would change LFF, if you had 3 viable tanking classes? It might not help YOU at all, but I'm sure there are a substantial number of players for whom tanking Champs could be beneficial.
I would gladly give up Glory-tanking if guardians lose Overpower. If guardians should be the only tank class, it wouldn't be fair for you to be able to DPS too. Guardians in Overpower step on MY toes, just as much as Champs tanking step on yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by SEAX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sthrax
So you agree...if champs are now going to be main tanks...OP guards should be made "main" dps, both single target and AoE...more than already is so!
Look, on its own this paragraph says, to me, "You will need to change your rotations for new mitigation skills and effects, but Champions will still deal out 'savage beats,' while managing threat and mitigating incoming damage." To me, that's a reasonable condensed version of what you said. I don't think it was a "Chicken Little" interpretation - taking the smallest sign as one of doom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
Which to me means cause for panic and for others to be looking over Orion's shoulder...GRAALX!!!!????!!!!? ???...and prevent potential disaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by ANewMachine
I wouldn't get too terribly worried guys, most champs still want to DPS all out all the time and will want to even with a tanking stance available. Having tank abilities does not equate to wanting to tank.
And to whoever mentioned captains healing as well as minstrels/RKs...I've seen the combat parsers, and a lot of captains top mini single-target healing numbers without breaking a sweat. I <3 captains.
Honestly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sthrax
I don't think ever in my life in LOTRO...ever...EVER...I have see on GLFF or LFF: "LF1M Melee DPS, champ or OP guardian wanted.' Sure I've seen groups, occasionally, grudgingly take an OP guardian when they were looking for a melee DPS role. But I've never seen a group happy about it, and I've damn well never seen a group take an OP guardian OVER a champ for the role of melee DPS.
EVER.
Yet I have seen plenty of groups (again, especially immediately post-MoM) actually take a champ OVER a guardian...specifically for the role of main tank.
That is just so very, very wrong I cannot even begin to fathom what more to say.
Whereas with stunning frequency (especially when MoM first came out), "LF1M tank wanted, champ preferred." Granted that is less common now, but mostly because the horrific damage done to the guardian class at MoM launch has been corrected.
If you give champs a stance that lets them tank "as well as" a guardian, while still being able to hit as hard as a champion normally hits (which seems to be what Orion is saying his goal is), then at the very least you need to give guardians a DPS stance that lets them DPS "as well as" a champ. Not just "do a little, mostly single-target DPS" but I mean the kind of full-bore DPS that a champion provides in a group.
And if you do that, then at some point you really have to ask yourself why LOTRO has them as two separate classes to begin with. Honestly. Other MMO's don't...the biggest one out (which will go unnamed here) there immediately comes to mind. In that game, you have one class that is BOTH the tank and the melee DPS class wrapped into one. One the new twists that LOTRO brought to the table to be different from "that game" is that in LOTRO, you had those two roles split into two classes; one could DPS great but not tank very well, the other could tank great but not DPS very well.
Now it seems as LOTRO goes along, it is becoming more like WoW (okay, I finally named it) and merging those two back into one. Which ultimately I think is a real shame, and ends up hurting both classes by making neither of them terribly distinctive from the other.
But see, it sounds like all a Champ would need to do is change his stance to be DPS+Tank. For me, a Guardian, I need to retrait at a Bard to go from Threat to Overpower effectively - costing a group time and me 200silver each swap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
Don't misunderstand me, I'm all for enhancing classes, but seriously, this sounds like a mighty blow to any Guardian. I'm forced to almost exclusively spam my +threat skills to hold aggro against Champs right now (in fervor stance), which means my DPS blows.
If you're telling me that now a Champ can simply click a button and be a tank + DPS - you may not "intend" to make them the only tank class, but you're effectively doing exactly that by allowing them to be a primary tank without any sacrifice to DPS. Honestly, please tell me why ANY group would take a Guard over a Champ after this?!
You guys have a helluva balance going right now imo, but this just mucks the entire thing up. Unless of course you're intention is to allow OP mode with shields again? Or add DPS in some major way to Guards?
I guess I just don't understand this move. lotro's classes are give and take...this change to Champ is give and give.
My only consolation in this thread is that now people are coming out and seeing the problem as I see it...instead of me being called 'chicken little' and and alarmist by some who enjoy speaking in demeaning ways if they disgaree.
I see how it can be taken that way, but I honestly don't think it was intended to be insulting to you in any way mate. More of an attention grabber than anything ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
And THANK YOU for pointing this out. I'm VERY pleased to know about it NOW rather than later.
I think you're interpretation is incorrect/flawed. As I read it he's saying that Champs will need to change their rotations in order to maintain threat/power/fervour and mitigate damage. And that this change of rotation is going to result in less dps output. Champion-*style* game play means hitting things/using dps skill rotations as opposed to beefing up on armour/shields/b/p/e. It doesn't necessarily mean massive dps output. "Style" means style, it does have anything to do with results.Quote:
Originally Posted by ANewMachine
As for having more than one class of main tank. It's a great thing. Sure I can understand why Guardians would be worried because you're no longer going to be a special snowflake that is wanted by every group 100% of the time. But let's be honest, Guardians have had a stranglehold on tanking in this game for awhile now, and that's not healthy for the game as a whole. We have multiple classes that can CC, do damage, support, and heal, but only one class that can actually tank raid content really well. That's an obvious game imbalance and glad that it's finally being addressed. Guardians are still going to be wanted and valued, they just won't have their super-special status anymore. Now they'll be on a level playing field with everyone else.
Okay, read Orion's statement again. He is saying that in a rotation, ONE SKILL will hit as hard as a Champ NORMALLY DOES ON ALL HIS SKILLS. The rest of the rotation will be filled with skills to raise threat, mitigate damage, etc. In no way does that imply a tanking Champion will do the same DPS he does in a DPS stance. It just means that ONE SKILL will hit as hard as a normal skill. It does not mean that one skill will do the same DPS as the rest of their skills combined.
Special snowflake?! Dude, I can find healer and capt and burg requests every night in glff too. I certainly don't feel "special" as a Guardian. I love the role they play though, and that's why this change bothers me.Quote:
Originally Posted by brasswire12
And in order to "level" the playing field, will we get a tremendous boost to our DPS also (2x's)? Because, to be a tank, I have already sacrificed MOST of my DPS ability. I need to choose DPS below Champ level or I tank. You'll have both. I want both then too - fair? As I said earlier, I already spam my +threat skills to maintain aggro over Champs. I want to be able to DPS and STILL maintain aggro if you can. You guys can keep the dual wielding, but I really want your DPS numbers and 4k crits too.
This is not true. I never really see anyone looking for DPS and accepting OP guardians. There is a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sthrax
It doesn't have to - it will still hit a lot harder than any of mine. I already need to throw everything I have into threat generation to compete with Fervour champs and hunters; the DPS I sneak into my rotation is laughable.Quote:
Originally Posted by qannadi
Champs' main role is supposedly melee DPS; these proposed changes seem to be upgrading their secondary tank role to another primary role. With that being the case, at a minimum I would like to be able to actually compete with them for a tanking slot (AND with any other class for a secondary role). Orion paints Champs as just as viable as Guards with the right rotation, except the former will also have DPS in their mix. I need to see the tradeoff that makes it a level playing field.
There are three tank classes now. If you dont know that, then there is nothing anyone on these forums can do to help you. This is nothing even remoely close to the problem in Moria. Moria guards suffered from a massive dps upscale with a minor threat generation upscale. Very simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
Guardians were the preferred tanking class because that outside of a Fervour champ was the only option. It wasn't until much later in SoA did Champs get Glory. Get your head outta the clouds dood. Guards haven't been the only tank in the game for over three years now. They've just been the best option for the majority of the content.Quote:
Originally Posted by SEAX
You can do almost as much dps as a Champ. If you dont know that then you should try to build a proper OP guard and parse it. You're going to run 80-90% of a Champs dps. To answer you, there is no reason in the world why OP guards shouldn't get a buff. OP has massive power issues and isn't as sustainable as Champs.
He wasn't 'calling you names' he was making a point. Your not a victim in this, stop acting like one. Your voice and opinion is just as important as anyone elses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
Its ignorance. Many many people have zero clue how much dps OP Guards can put out. Thats on them. But like I said above, OP guards could use a little love.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffor
For some reason, Guards have never had any luck with a developer that really was looking out for the class. The original developer was so conservative, I don't think he ever wanted to change anything. Then there was the launch of Moria, what a nightmare, I don't want to relive that. Dps was king, range tanking, Guards were not needed or wanted.
As for the changes for the Champions, don't kid yourself, if the developers are talking about them then they are already in the works.
But if your going to make the Champs more like Guards, then make the Guards more like champs. Make it so when people think of a dps class, they also think of Guards. This would not be my preferred solution, I don't really want to be a Champ lite, but it's better than being totally useless.
I could not agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jatayu
We're too late to change their minds if they're talking/blogging about it - the best we can hope for is more DPS to extend our role.
I PUG a lot, and you'd be surprised how many guardians insist they should go Overpower and dps-tank. And don't get me started on the OP guardians insisting they should be dpsing the cauldron in NCF instead of a champ... For the record, both classes have been messed up since MoM and their roles too blurred.Quote:
Originally Posted by MithrilSoul
More to the point, I like that classes have primary and secondary roles. But those roles should be clearly defined and one's class' primary role shouldn't be eclipsed by the other's secondary. I do not want champs to tank as well as guards, but given the very tiny bits of information available at this time, I don't see a problem with them tanking in a different way than guards. I suspect that champ tanking will be more difficult and trait/skill-intensive than guard tanking, and without a shield, guard mitigation will still be better. No matter what, I (as well as most champs) want to DPS (leaving the tanking to guards or wardens), and only tank in an emergency or the odd 3-man.
I stand by my comment (which wasn't directed at you or the more level-headed posters here)- if guards don't want champs to be able to tank, guards shouldn't be able to dps. Right now, it appears like each will be able to do both with some proficiency, and I'd prefer it that way (options are always good). It just doesn't sit well with me when, with little information, someone declares only guards should tank, yet ignores the gigantic Overpower elephant in the room.
People who think Champs will be able to tank as well as Guardians and still put out top tier dps and threat at the same time just aren't reading what Orion said. He specifically said that is *not* what they are doing, and that it would be bad for the game if they did. I don't know how much clearer they can make it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TUX426
We have no idea how this will work yet. For all we know a champ may have to completely retrait in order to an effective tank. Switching to Glory when not traited for tanking may only be good in an emergency and even then only for a limited time.Quote:
Originally Posted by TUX426
And I would stress this- I (and most other champs) want to DPS. Period. I have no desire to be a main tank, and I'm not particularly keen on being an off-tank. However, I appreciate to option to do so effectively if need be (even if it requires retraiting and a second set of legendaries).
And it sounds like they're trying to do away with the secondary roles and turning them into main roles. So that Champions can, if they choose, trait for a tanking main role, or trait for a DPS main role, or trait for another DPS main role. Something similar to WoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grampsaz
I think it's good.
This, honestly, I think is a good thing. There are a LOT of changes that would need to take place to make this happen, but I for one would be very happy to see a CC Hunter who was as good as a CC LM.. Are we likely to see many? No, it's like the posters have said- most Champs play Champs because they like to DPS and shing-shing, NOT because they want to tank. But would it be terrible if every class could, with a LOT of gearing, traiting, and LI'ing, be a viable and strong alternative class? I would dare say that except for bursts, Minstrels have even less of a second role than Guardians. Would I love to see actual medium armour wearing, DPS Minstrels? Sure, would be fun for them. I wouldn't choose to do it, but I think that would be a cool option for people to have. Maybe when we DO hear about Guardian changes, we will hear about Overpower getting a bump to allow Guardians to compete on a more even DPS level. The fact that they're rolling out Champion changes first may be a GOOD THING- then Guardians (upwards) or Champions (nerfage) can be adjusted based on actual in-game feedback if suddenly Champs are the best tanks in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Golledhel
But again.. why NOT allow classes to have two viable roles instead of a "primary" and a "secondary?" I hate to mention another game because clearly we're not any other game (yay Lord of the Rings).. but I like what SW:TOR is doing with their classes a lot.. You want to be a healing heavy armour trooper? Go right ahead, just understand what you're getting yourself into.
Still looking for LFF calls for CC-traited Hunters. ;)
They don't need to tank "as well as" - if they tank marginally as well as a Guard PLUS deal Champ DPS, they'll be the preferred tanking class every time. Groups would be fools to take a Guardian tank when they can grab someone who will make the entire run go quicker by tanking AND DPS'ing.Quote:
Originally Posted by brasswire12
I'm fine with Champs being given a "tank" role option...but NOT with Champ DPS. Give and take!
My guard's OP DPS is easily within 10% of a champions, even closer on single target fights, the main limiters are POWER and parry reactives.
That said, I'd love to see OP change Protection into a parry-only buff/reactive feed, and maybe slightly reduce the OP power penalty.
Also, very very very few champions that I've played with are either inclined to (attempt to) tank, or have the sufficent Clue Density required to successfully do so.
Although I suppose that the converse is true as well, most guardians either don't want to or suck at being DPS. I ran NCF T2 with someone who had a (badly played/poorly geared) guard alt and didn't believe that I could solo DPS the cauldron down. Of course you can't when you're wearing 7 pieces of annuminas armor, your agility is 240, and your 2h is a 60 first age.
If you re-read what Orion said you'll find that is what he already did say. That Champs would *not* be able to do normal Champ dps while tanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by TUX426
It seems the fear with all of this is that guards (and wardens) will be left out in the cold when it comes to group instances of 6+ and up. Like we were right after MOM. Fun for me is defined by playing group content. If groups LF1M tank and have 4+tells... and they have the choice of a champ or guard, they might likely choose the champ. Guard gets passed up... I'm not grouping... I'm not having fun.
Most 6 man instances only require 1 tank. And often times the instance only really requires that tank for the boss fights. So, there's incentive to take a dps-ing champ that can also handle the boss fights (switch to glory if needed). That would likely be the fastest way through the 6mans.
12-man are similar usually requiring two tanks. (LFF Turtle, 2 heavies, 2 healers, 1 Cappy...and 7 spots for anyone else *except for another tank). That's literally 10 spots for any class to fill in the Turtle raid... and only 2 spots for tanks. (I know this example breaks down quickly when we all know you can tank the turtle with champs, burgs, others already). I use it as an illustration about the number of spots available to a tank in a raid/group.
I think Turbine could help remedy this situation by creating 6-man instances that often require more than 1 tank role, and 12 man instances that require more than 2. With 3-4 classes (Guard, Wrd, Champ, Cappy) that can tank (not even including hunters and burgs) Turbine needs to create more content in the instanced fights that requires more than 1 tank role. That would create more incentive for groups to bring additional heavies/tanks -because the content demands it.
So there will be some situations where wardens and Guards will be as good as a champ filling the DPS slot? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Grampsaz
My guess, nope. I foresee a repeat of Moria. :(
Correct, they cannot DPS while tanking, but (from what I understand) they can easily switch from one mode to the other. A simple stance change and modified skill rotation and you are there.Quote:
Originally Posted by brasswire12
I admit that I don't know what role class traits will play in a champ being able to perform either role, but it currently seems like not so much.
If this is true, then champs could become the more prefered class for tanking, simply because they can help speed up a group by doing great DPS with trash, and being able to tank the bosses. I know I would take a champ over guard in this situation.
He didn't say that at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by brasswire12
He said:
"They should not hide behind a shield, deal less damage, or sacrifice their game play. They should tank like a champion."
and
"What this means for Glory is as follows: no more damage reduction. Hit like a truck have fun! That is the goal of playing games after all, having fun! At the same time, understand that if all you do is hit things you are likely not going to survive."
and...
"I have not created magical pixie dust that allows for champs to do all three of tanking, damage dealing, and threat generation."
But all that implies is that they won't need to waste skills on 'threat'...but without a Guard in the group, there's no need to think they would ever lose aggro after a slight bit.
and...
"Champion's tanking in Glory will play like Champions. When they hit as part of their rotation they will hit hard. They will, however, need to sacrifice hitting hard all the time by using skills that will allow them to..."
No place does he suggest there will be a reduction in ANYTHING Champs can deal for damage, only that they may need to sacrifice hitting hard ALL the time. Guards are forced to sacrifice damage ALL the time to be effective tanks.
Where did you think you read otherwise?
Given that both Guardians and Wardens have dps as their secondary role (Keen Blade and Spear respectively), does this mean that your goals are to not make champions, guardians, or wardens as DPS preferable over any other?Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
The problem isn't that they can do Champ DPS while tanking - the problem is that they will still be doing significantly more DPS than Guardians when tanking. How else can I interpret the following (all quoted from Orion, but with different emphasis):Quote:
Originally Posted by brasswire12
Apparently Guardians are expected to tank by dealing less damage and hiding behind a shield. The bolded language above all sounds like DPS to me, and is in sharp contrast to how a Guard plays - gear/trait for mitigation, use your skill rotation to generate threat... and forget about anything but incidental DPS.
- "They should not hide behind a shield, deal less damage, or sacrifice their game play."
- "...mitigate damage, maintain threat, all while dishing out some savage beats."
- "...no more damage reduction. Hit like a truck have fun!"
If the Champ-tank is still hitting like a truck, but also able to manage his mitigations and threat (bear in mind that DPS is also threat), he's got the clear advantage absent some other way to level the playing field - and that's what we need to hear about.
What is being said, and how it may end up being, are two different things.
The guard dev pre MoM was told are threat gen was broke, he told us it was fine, hell, he implied that we should all lrn2play.
MoM was released, and about 1-2 weeks in as grds were getting to lvl 60, we all found out: guards threat was broke, and champs were kings for 3-4 months or so, until it was fixed for grds, and nerfs handed to champs (which is always bad).
If something isn't said about champs and glory tanking now, and concerns over the past brought up, we could have the same thing happen, but this time it would effect two classes, not one.
The more classes become the same, the harder any type of balance will be able to be maintained.
You should interpret it alongside and with the same weight as other things he said today. Specifically...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lomeloth
* "allowing for the rotation to mitigate the massive damage that Champions can output."
* "understand that if all you do is hit things you are likely not going to survive."
* "I have not created magical pixie dust that allows for champs to do all three of tanking, damage dealing, and threat generation. That would be a single-player game. We are not a single-player game. I am working toward a balanced approach to make them tanks that use Champion-style Game Play."
* "They will, however, need to sacrifice hitting hard all the time by using skills that will allow them to a) survive, b) maintain threat, c) build their fervour back, d) maintain power."
This isn't a shot at Guardians so much as it is a shot at the current form of Glory, which, instead of being a Champ flavoured stance, instead tries to make Champs into Guardians-lite. It would be like if Loremaster heals involved them whipping out a musical instrument and playing a song to heal. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, it works great for Minstrels. But from a Loremaster perspective, that's not the LM way of doing things, and the LM based description of it might not be so flattering.Quote:
Apparently Guardians are expected to tank by dealing less damage and hiding behind a shield.
Again...I am slightly heartened that people are joining in this...for a day or two, with people telling me to essentially shut up even on this forum ...I think my concern was called a "tirade" on this forum...I really felt like I had had a brain bleed or something...since the cause for concern seemed so plain to me, and yet did not receive any kind of expected reception. Btw, Orion actually called someone else "chicken little" here, and I was referring to certain private posters who were decidedly having a go at me (here and on champ forum), whereas I do think Orion had some genuine intention of humor versus forum nastiness with his use of that phrase.
Couple of things...my first post somewhere...i think champ forum...hit on what several are saying here...I made some sarcastic comment that jumped over the problem to where I suspect we have to strive for a "solution." I made a one-liner that "its all good, since guards will be having the evade and power nerfs of OP stance removed and increased crit multipliers granted to all of our big attacks and additional AoE attacks." That is it...probably the only thing we can hope for parity, to then truly compete...have our secondary role similarly be buffed into a viable primary role to match champs across the board. Maybe also some increased crit multiplier and increased frequency on bash & SS crit (I'd like to see a 3k SS and more often), would also assist maintaining parity in tanking.
The additional yet still intentionally vague snippets from Orion lead me to think that champ tanking will actually be something akin to "one button" warden tanking...without the gambits...that champs (like wardens) will be able to spam certain skills to max BPE, and/or crit def, and or increased self-heals. yay!!! a "warden analog" that is not limited by a players ability to bring to bear uber defensive skills that leave guards skills in the dust, just press one button! Commingled with champ-like dps, if not "full champ dps," we are most certainly in trouble.
Orion, as the dev for wardens...temporarily placated them with some promised buffs as well...but I think wardens will end up unhappy as well just the same, when champs outdo them with single button presses that take wardens time to build a gambit for.
Two fully spammable main tanking classes to compete with soon...but hey we should still be preferred all because someone gave us "pledge" way back at the get go....lolz!
I do not think the boost to OP is a good or right solution that we have to head toward, but it is all we can strive for...agree that this is a "done deal" if the dev's are blogging about it and so we can only try to get the ball rolling so that when the needed correction (to our class) comes, it might take a little less intervening time of misery.
They don't ever really ask us for feedback that can greatly modify or change a course, even if that path leads to certain "destruction"...and there are too many champs getting excited and asking for 5 morale per vit...crit defense from skills...and block on weapons, etc. , etc.
Dark times ahead...I feel more sure than ever that I will not need that Lotramin for MY tongue!
You missed the part where he said, "When they hit they will hit with a savage beat." That "When" is the key word there. If a champ is tanking he's not going to be hitting and laying out dps like he might otherwise. He's going to be working more on his b/p/e to avoid the hits and keep aggro up. In other words he'll be using a different skill rotation than he would if he wasn't tanking, but he'll still be using a skill rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by ANewMachine
Will the champ be as effective a tank as a guard? No. But right now he's not effective as a tank much at all, in spite of skills hinting that they wanted the champ to be able to tank if so desired. So now they are giving the champ an option to be able to semi-effectively tank if need be- not by dealing out loads of damage, but by using skill rotations like a champ does. And that's fine with me.
Personally, I think when you can make a character class viable in more than one role, that's a good thing. Versatility and choices are good, and this is helping to open up and allow that.
Yes, the word "tirade" was used. I also used a dictionary beforehand to make sure that it wouldn't be offensive.
When I disagree with you, I'm not "having a go" at anyone or anything, I'm just disagreeing. Whatever you choose to read into my words is your choice. Nobody told you to shut up, at least not here. People can disagree with you without demanding that you shut up.
Well, if you were looking to make the thread about real or imagined forum drama instead of issues, congratulations.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by MithrilSoul
Childish condescension aside, this is an absurd statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by brasswire12
Here's a clue from the clue bat:
There are already groups tanking nearly all bosses in OD - Tier 2 challenges - with fervour Champs
Answer me this: aside from take a beating (by hiding behind our shields, apparently), what do Guardians do better than - heck as well as - any other class?
I will note that Wardens and RKs were clear strategic decisions on Turbine's part to alleviate the need for more tanks and healers at end-game. They were certainly not "unasked-for."Quote:
Originally Posted by SEAX
You were intentionally and needlessly abrasive, which is not uncommon when you address people you may disagree with...and I think you may even now be coming around to recognizing that this issue is a valid concern...but your first post was expressly addressing me for even bothering to bring up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaunt
As said then, I am "over" verbal sparring with you...this issue will pan out as it does and I suspect before the end you will be far more in agreement than your initial go at me would betray.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solien
I so am feeling you right now dude :)...in a purely intellectual "in the same boat" sort of way, no puns!!!
I think most Guards just want to make sure they have role to play in the up coming content. The Guards that were around at the launch of Moria saw it, everything was Dps (and to a great extent range dps). Why use a shield, when the object is to burn the boss down faster than he can burn you down. Can't control your aggro, no problem just keep dpsing.
Champs wielding two handers tanking, burgs tanking, RK's tanking, with big numbers flying, I get it. All I ask is to let guards into the fun, you can have my mitigations, give me dps. Let me post how I hit with X with shield smash for a million points of damage. I can't wait for shield throw, to up my range dps.
Besides, if tanking was such a great job, more people would be doing it.
I wonder what kind of sound a dpsing Guard will make?
I am looking forward to this already.
Shield throw...love it!!
In reality, we will be getting our melee crit rank 3 and 4 passives finally, and a smoothed out sting and upped ratings on protection....read: the shaft! That should fix the problem ;)
Well, this has been... entertaining.
I'd like to just reiterate that I'm looking forward to the information on the Guard class as soon as the Blog is possible, and will enjoy any teasers that Orion cares to share with us from himself and the other developers working on the class changes. So far, even the small amounts that have been shared in a completely roundabout fashion have perked my interest.
It's sounding like, more and more, the Champion class is moving towards a more Hybrid take on the traditional role of DPS and Tank. From the small amounts of cross-reference that have been supplied in the ensuing discussions, it would seem that this is also the case for Guardians and Wardens, as well.
Our concerns, as Guardians, is that we are profoundly sensitive of being moved into a situation of redundancy within the Fellowship and/or Raid. The unfairness of that sensitivity right now is that we have less than a third of the information of what the incoming class alterations are going to be for the Champions, Guardians and Wardens that might justify or allay this sensitivity. The information for the Champions was released in a generous and playful manner -- it was met with an undue amount of negativity.
So I suggest that we all slot our Stoic Trait, and kindly wait for Orion to release our own information.
I agree with you somewhat. We don't know enough information to warrant this much negativity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crissaegrim
But if I were to respond to what I read in http://my.lotro.com/user-55/2011/05/...nd-trait-sets/ on its own, I would be very concerned.
With increased crit defense, and better emergency skills, Glory (with no shield) will become almost as good as Overpower for survivability (there's already barely any difference), and with increased damage, and increased pip generation, it may well end up providing as good (if not significantly better) damage output than Overpower.
Of course I realize that it remains to be seen how much of an effect these changes will actually have, and we won't know until people start playing. A lot of Champions will probably stubbornly refuse to use Glory just like a lot of Guardians stubbornly refuse to use Overpower :p.
That said, I don't have much faith in the devs. So please realize that:
A Guardian is switching between:
i) Using a Shield (very low dps, very high survivability)
ii) Overpower (? high dps, moderate survivability)
A Champion is switching between:
ii) Glory (? high dps, ? moderate survivability)
iii) Fervour (very high dps, low survivability)
iv) when available: (very high dps, slightly worse than moderate survivability)
Since (i) is rarely (pretty much never) required outside of raids, even in mediocre groups: If Glory is made as good as Overpower, Guardian's could easily become generally undesirable outside of raids; If Glory is made significantly better than Overpower, Guardian's could easily start to generally be seen as a hindrance to groups.
Presumably, to counter these changes to Champions, Guardians are going to see one of the following:
- Increased Damage in Overpower
- Much better Survivability in Overpower
- and/or Mobs hitting much harder in general (unlikely)
Fingers crossed anyway...
I'm not sure if anyone has said this already, but I'll say it and repeating it wouldn't be a bad thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
Champions with no damage penalty generating crazy fervor pips with glorious exchange will have no problem dealing damage and holding aggro. Especially if they have To Arms, but even otherwise it's NEVER a problem.
ALL they need to do is worry about power.
Now, I'm not saying guards will be useless, but it's clear you haven't thought through the implications of the changes very well. At least it is to me, prove me wrong right?
There are 6 bosses in OD, what qualifies as "nearly all" in your definition? Some of the fights are definitely designed to not be tanked in the traditional way but that's neither here nor there. Over the last two years at least I've never seen a raid group that would turn down a Guardian given the opportunity. That doesn't mean that some very high-performing groups aren't capable of doing it without one as is true of any class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solien
The way Orion's posts strike me is exactly what I'm looking for. As a champ, there is a certain feel that we all love, that of a blade-swinging whirlwind of death. Fast skills, with fun animations (you know, unless you are 2H lol. jk to my 2H brothers, I couldn't resist).
If you have ever played a tanking champ with a shield, you know that there are a few things that are a little...underwhelming about playing that style. We didn't roll a champ to play a guard lol.
I think that a lot of our skills will be modified by traits and the stance itself. I suspect that it will be tied more to our traits, as arguments from the guards here are true that it's not fair if they have to retrait and we don't. I think the skills will be given more utility (think hunter melee skills, everything has a purpose, and it's not necessarily for dps).
I will say something I said in the warg forum too. Try not to panic. We love this game, Turbine has done a great job so far, and they try not to create problems, though problems will always exist. Have faith, my friends. We don't have details yet.
Namárië,
Geldarion
I have a lot of reserved concerns, summed up by others in part.
EDIT: And yes, there is a slight feeling of impending doom. Maybe. I dunno, I'm just uncertain we'll get a fair shake.
You can say that somebody's "having a go" at you as much as you like. It doesn't make it true. You can say that something is abrasive as much as you like, but that doesn't make it so. Yes, my first post disagreed with you. This is one of the risks of expressing yourself in a public forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
And you can dissemble from your oft repeated manner of posting...denials won't change that your words and intentionally cutting style are self-evident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaunt
You could have just said, "you are getting more concerned than necessary"...instead you intended to belittle and demean...but you back off from that intention now if it pleases you, idc either way...my opinions of you are set and I understand the motivationto back peddle, as you have realized my cause for concern was valid and shared by others, regardless of how that far more important topic may eventually resolve for good or ill.
I stopped reading and started howling at this point. Maybe the irony is too deep. Person A thinks Person B is offensive, and then Person B proceeds (in said and following posts) to tell Person A exactly what they think of them - in an intentionally and needlessly abrasive manner. I think I found a free energy device.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
Yeah...that's how it reads.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticAurora
^This. (+Rep)Quote:
Originally Posted by Crissaegrim
The fear-mongering here is worse than it was in the burg forums back when the dev diary for update 2 came out for them. And that's impressive. Guards have virtually no info to go on regarding their own class at all. Just promises that guards will get attention too, to be patient, its coming. Still, crazy fear and doomsaying here for no good reason.(no info to go on means you know nothing of the upcoming changes to our class, so it serves no purpose to prattle on about all the worst-case and in some ways impossible scenarios) Guess what happened for the Burgs? After it was all said and done, release of update 2 and full disclosure and testing on live servers, the only negative issue that really survived out of their voluminous gripes was "Hey, you forgot to buff one of our traitlines. That really woulda been grand, as we like mischief stance and it could use some work."
The old days may have seen some horrid balance changes from dev for guards, but since f2p turbine has a lot more money to spend on the game and based on all the updates since then, they are doing pretty quality updates each time since.(not perfect, ofc, but nothing can be.) Fully functioning multi-role classes are a good thing, with traiting required, its one of the only things I miss from my WoW days and by the looks of it, it seems to be coming for lotro. I look forward to it if that's the direction that the devs are heading.
I've fallen in love with my guard alt lately and have all but forgotten my burg main for now. I forgot how much fun it was to tank and to just *be* tanky. In fact he might become my new main as I can't stop playing him.(hence me perusing the guard forums of late, instead of the burgs) Lets be patient, stop twisting Orion's words to say what he never said, and wait for our dev blog to come. It will, we will get enhancements too, we wont be trivialized as tanks, the Dev team-lead already said so. With no info to go on about our class yet, it is senseless to argue with him. As the tankiest tanks in the game, you'd think we'd have thicker skins than this.
Patience, Daniel-san.
From the Warden forum:
Originally Posted by Orion
Maybe those three trait slots will not be necessary in the future. Let me get through the Champ stuff, get the information out to them and I will turn my attention to the next class. Maybe Wardens, maybe Minstrels.
For all those saying we don't have enough information to be concerned at this point it doesn't look like we will have that info for quite awhile.
I think the reason for this is that Orion is not the Guardian dev.. It doesn't mean that the Guardian dev WILL post any sooner, but it also doesn't mean that they won't. Orion just happens to be one of the best blogging devs at Turbine, historically speaking. Not sure if he'll speak for the people doing the other classes or not. It does sound, at least from this thread and the Warden thread, that Orion is certainly speaking to the other class devs, which is as it should be given how much class changes will impact each other, especially the melee classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by FyrenLandroval
But who is our Guardian dev then? Why are they mum when a bomb gets dropped like this? Is there even a guard dev?Quote:
Originally Posted by qannadi
THANK YOU for pointing out something that shouldnt have taken 6 pages to get to. (+rep)Quote:
Originally Posted by gakj3
If guardians are struggling to hold aggro against champs as is, why would Champs have to work aggro skills into a Glory rotation?
emphasis addedQuote:
Originally Posted by Orion
The problem with what Orion is saying is that the intention will be for champs to have to slow DPS for 4 major reasons. We all know that isnt likely to happen...not even close. If a champ can dish 80% of the damage they do normally, they wont HAVE to switch out of full bore DPS to get aggro.
Again...quite simply: DPS = AGGRO GENERATION
I would say take the aggro generation from damage down in glory to force glory tanks to use aggro skills, but this would be used by DPS champs to stay off the aggro list instead of for tanking. If you went this route, why would a champ ever use Fervor?
To echo one or two others, I dont think OP is our answer. I stand by what I said in a earlier thread in regards to desired Guardian changes:
Now add to that last paragraph "And Champs can 'hit like a truck' while being as survivable as other tanks."Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedly
Yeah, it lets us encroach on the Warden territory of being able to say "I am a small fellowship", but champs are getting to be main tanks now, so why cant we be a small fellowship unto ourselves like wardens? Plus, it would let us drop this build for something more useful.
Or just give us more PROC gear options. :rolleyes:
I LOVE the reactive nature of Guardians. I feel like it keeps me on my toes. Let me use THAT mechanic to be more survivable! Right now, all we have in that vein is CaB. Sure, traited and legacied its nothing to sneeze at, but its no Conviction. As it stands I feel silly being squishier in solo play than a medium armor wearer...
Besides, if a Champ can do anything a Champ can do by playing like a Champ ("shing-shing!"), then why cant us guardians do the same thing while cowering behind our shields?
Dont make me a Champ-lite please. I rolled a tank to be a tank.
I know that we cant get dev diaries on demand, but could someone please just respond a little so that we have some sort of rough idea of where were headed? Turbine, right now you have alot of nervous players who would just like to know that there is a direction and plan for their class. The silence for the last year or more has been pretty deafening.