An Update: On Upcoming Changes to Hunters

I have a bit of an update on Blogs, shamelessly copied from Orion.

Some of you may have noticed that Kelsen put up a bundle of blogs two days ago http://my.lotro.com/user-1317796/ on his my.lotro.com page and Orion talked about them in a Champion thread. As you can see by that little snippet of information, we are going to attempt to do blogs for upcoming class changes. That being said, I am hoping to post the first iteration of my proposed changes to the Hunter up soon.

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.

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Definitely got flare for dropping a bomb ;)

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.

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As a Focus-Burn style hunter, my brain is spinning right now. This could be awesome or this could be terrible. I can't wait for more information.

Will I still be able to fire off focus shots as fast as my power allows? Will I suddenly find myself wanting to always be in melee range due to some amazing changes to melee skills?

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Originally Posted by Yosoff

due to some amazing changes to melee skills?

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Dual wielding 2H weapons!!!!


:D

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

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Hunter's just got revamped, I'm not sure why you're changing the trait lines again.... no hunter uses melee, I have a feeling Huntsman will become the new unused line by everybody if you add a melee focus *you just took away bow and blade trait out of the game after all*

trapper of foes... focus more on traps itself? sure why not. But you just made this viable CC... not sure I understand but if this makes the line usable in most situations I am all for it, looking forward to info on ToF line.

Can I please ask what is wrong with current setup?

Bowmaster - solo dps
Huntsman - raid dps
Trapper of Foes - cc

Orion gave the reasons behind upcoming champion changes, but there is no reason why to change recently changed hunter class, which at the moment is perceived by majority of hunters as balanced state.

Interesting. After the recent update I wasn't expecting anything to change for Hunters until Isengard. I wonder what this will entail...

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.

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oh plz i hope this wont nerf our lovely huntsman line with some useless melee buffs

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

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Hum?

Didn't we just got a revision? Are we getting changed again?

I like where hunters are now.. please, stop! Choo! Go Away! I actually like Improved Fleetness. :p

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Originally Posted by d3sperad0

oh plz i hope this wont nerf our lovely huntsman line with some useless melee buffs

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If you are willing to start playing as ranged/melee hybrid...

And to comment on the nerf to ToF:

In some cases it may be that our CC is better than the one of Loremasters.
But when you are raid leader you can pick between:
A) great CC and superior debuffs (lm)
B) superior CC and poor dps (hunt)

The LM with his debuffs bring definitely much much more to the table.

Personally I don't see the need to nerf our CC traitline that after years has become finally viable option.

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Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.

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Is it at the moment? There is NOT ONE single trait in Bowmaster set that benefits from S:S. Maybe the opposite would be better - introduce some changes to the traits that link S:S with the Bowmaster set?

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Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

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I can't understand - it's just been updated and I'm loving the new possibilities. Why would you want to get rid of CC? And what is 'everything else'?

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Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.

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Don't need any changes to melee skills, don't want any changes to melee skills, most people barely use them as it is. Unless of course you add some tasty debuffs...

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

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Oh lord, this is not gonna be good...Bowmaster is our dps line, why would it not be tied to Strength stance...
Bow and blade warrior, does this means they adding that trait back?

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Originally Posted by JeanCarlo

Dual wielding 2H weapons!!!!


:D

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What about Dual Wield Crossbows?

Not sure what to make of Bowmaster not being tied to S:S. Unless some of the traits are being changed to benefit other stances which might be a good thing.

Huntsman could be really good. A lot of people jump the gun but Huntsman is pure speed, so maybe while slotted Huntsman our melee skills give back power or add focus when used. I could think of several ways this would be nice, especially in the Moors.

Trapper never use it, so for me it would have to have a complete overhaul.

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Originally Posted by Cubi

Oh lord, this is not gonna be good...Bowmaster is our dps line, why would it not be tied to Strength stance...
Bow and blade warrior, does this means they adding that trait back?

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Because SS is only situationally useful in groups? Being forced to use SS for a dps trait line leads to too much aggro to maintain as high of DPS as possible. If you are on the forums, haven't you heard people bash hunters that sit in strength stance all day?

It should be a soloing/tanking/meleeing trait line that is tied to SS. The grouping dps line should be untied to any specific stance, or tied to one of the other two.

Like most folks I feel like we just got a pretty major update that balanced us out well, especially the changes to the bowmaster line. So I guess this is for RoI which is intriguing... so:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

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Bowmaster: Are you going to tie it to another stance? Why not make it more favorable for Strength? (and if you do that make Beneath Care a TRUE aggro dump.)

Huntsman: NOOOOOO! No Melee! Support skills are OK like building focus, dazing, AR heal, etc! Why do you think we need to do melee damage? Especially for a trait set that encourages speedy bow skills? Why do I care if I can shoot faster if I'm going to be slowing my bow skills down with melee attacks. If you want to add melee damage add it to ToF line to offset the ranged nerf. Make ToF get a big boost to melee. Which leads to:

Trapper of foes: This is just confusing. I know the CC isn't great in some cases since the majority are roots/traps, allowing ranged and tact enemies to attack and heal. Easy fix would turn PS into mez instead of root. But what else would a hunter want to do? heal? Too vague to really comment.

I think most hunters would agree that the lines should look like this:

Bowmaster: Spike Damage (slower skills but bigger hits) RANGED TANKING and Solo
Huntsman: Group/raid DPS (faster skills better DPS/power/threat ratio and better mitigation avoidance) at the cost of ranged tanking
ToF: Crowd Control with slightly lower dps.

Thanks for letting us chime in on this, I'd love to continue the dialogue so we get good advancement for RoI!

I like the current state of the traitlines. But being a Hunter traited in the Huntsman line, I don't know if this is good or bad, as I currently like that it's now a focus and speed-oriented traitline that uses less power than the Bowmaster. The Trapper of Foes line is nice in its current state as well, as a viable CC line which is really fun to use in easy orc-filled instances, but it all depends on what everything else is, maybe we will get some nice debuffs? :D

Im not sure why you would change ToF. I have for the first time seen "LFM need CC hunter or LM" in glff recently. Would seem a shame to change that. Possibly a touch more dps but please dont nerf the finally useful CC.

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Originally Posted by Sirandilas

What about Dual Wield Crossbows?

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O M G !

That would be like, cool! but... you know, cooler!

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Originally Posted by Big_Scooter

Because SS is only situationally useful in groups? Being forced to use SS for a dps trait line leads to too much aggro to maintain as high of DPS as possible. If you are on the forums, haven't you heard people bash hunters that sit in strength stance all day?.

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this is mostly due to bad tanks, a good tank can hold agro just fine given 5 seconds at the start of the fight.

I dislike posting off-topic and derailing threads, but I just can't help myself with this one...

You just revamped the Hunter class with the last update. Balanced a lot of things and made a useless traitline very useful for its purpose. It was an update very well done and I believe the vast majority of hunter players were pleased with the changes. Yet it seems you still think this class is in need of adjustments and have time to work on it. I hope the systems team feels the same about the Burglars, which got close to nothing with their "update" and still need some traitline revision instead of band-aid treatment.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.

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Okay, who is it at Turbine that keeps thinking any significant percentage of hunters are just dying to run in to melee range to play cheap-cousin-of-the-champ? heh...when we want to melee, we switch to our guards/wardens/champs/burgs/cappys. Don't need moar melee ability in this game. Just to clarify your player base's feelings on this particular topic, a poll might be illustrative. :)

Just trying to work out what you must be thinking, can only conlude you want to flip-flop the Bowmaster and Huntsman lines. Currently, BM is all about soloing, range tanking, etc -- times when you know you'll end up with aggro, or want to end up with aggro. Often means getting into melee situations (though you frequently just keep using ranged attacks regardless, save auto-attacks). Currently, Huntsman is about ranged dps in groups, riding below top aggro. Almost never intended to close to melee range with the mobs. So....you want Huntsman to be the melee (high aggro, mobs come running?) line while BM is the fully ranged (ride below the tank) line? Is that it? If so, is the flip-flop really needed? I mean, I get the names..."Bowmaster" would fit a precision stancee support/group DPS role better than "Huntsman" and "Huntsman" seems more appropriate to soloing (if not range tanking). Is that what it's all about, the names?

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

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Hmm...in a HUNTER'S world, there are only two things: dps, and crowd control. So if Trapper is going to be less cc, the "everything else" must be...MOAR DPS! Maybe even 30% more! To quote that funny champ friend of ours, we say OKAY! :)

(seriously, Trapper is good as it is, very useful when you need to cc for a group ... no idea what "everything else" could mean, if not dps ... surely you don't mean more poison removal or taxi service ....)

Can we have dual wield crossbows AND shields??

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Originally Posted by Lothran

surely you don't mean more poison removal or taxi service ....)

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the cap stone will remove the induction off ports and make them usable in combat, it will also not give the people in range a choice if they can come. Trapper of Friends.

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Originally Posted by Sirandilas

What about Dual Wield Crossbows?

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Shot from the hip! :cool:

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Originally Posted by slack_n_hash

Shot from the hip! :cool:

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With explosive bolt tips

Jesus Christ. I don't want to be a melee hunter. What are these guys thinking? If I wanted to melee I'd roll a champ or guardian. If I want to shoot, I play hunter. I can only imagine how ruined huntsman traitline is going to be. Huntsman line is fine as is. Improved Fleetness gave a viable option compared to Bowmaster line.

Looks more and more like we're gonna become a jack of all trades except we'll suck at every trade.

/do not want!

So.... the CC trait line with less CC,
The solo DPS with less DPS,
The speed-focus line with less ranged action?
Yeah ok.

This is going to be rich...

honestly if theyre gonna change any thing maybe a trait that ups aglie rejoinder heal, or even a light armor shield u can use to replace one wep? (this is a maybe it could be added as a trait to equip and be under tof but would make daze blow not useable)
and hunters are generaly not cc unless traited that way (tof duh) so y nerf that?

and will hunts get a port to an isen city?

lastly maybe they were planning on upping sote becouse i have low power to begin with and if i run out i go use it and it doesnt even go half way plus they had a poor response to it

The only fix hunters need now is SotE morale regen. It doesn't work very well because of the way ICMR ticks.

Please don't fix anything else that isn't broken...

...unless it's double-crossbow for Huntsman, then yes go ahead please. :D


But seriously, I play hunter because I don't want to go into melee, and it's probably the same for all other hunter players, so don't change that.

I feel the same as most of the people on this thread. You just fixed the hunter and made all 3 traitlines fun and balanced and now you overhaul everything again. We rolled a hunter to be a ranged dps class. It's fine that we have some skill which require us to go melee (dazing blow for example) but if you are making a melee line which will most certainly be weaker than all other melee classes I'd say no to it.

If it is possible you could try to combine ToF with melee. Use the traps to get some serious dot damage in but don't destroy the huntsman line which I love the most at the moment.

Guys, I think this is a rare opportunity to voice our issues with the hunter class in a thread the dev is clearly reading. While I agree with the general consensus that the proposed changes to our trait lines would be a poor move (sorry ZC, what you're suggesting would be far too drastic a play style change) to simply say 'don't change us, we're fine' seems somewhat short sighted. I would encourage you to list even your small grievances with the class and hope they will be addressed.

Here are some of my own:

SoTe's Morale regen: both the 3 peice Huntsman line bonus, and the Major meele legacy. These are now essentially worthless due to the very short duration of the ability, these need to be replaced or changed.

Focus/Induction Crit legacies: These need to be a single legacy, the math has been done on them and the increase to overall DPS is far too low to justify them being 2 separate legacies.

Beneath Notice/Beneath Care: This ability needs to have a direct aggro dump component to it and to have the trait Stealthy Shot changed to something entirely else. It's probably our worst trait currently.

Heart of the Bard: This trait needs to be changed due to the now much lower CD of HS.

Trapper of Foes Line: I understand the rationale of the reduced DPS for CC, however what Turbine seems to have failed to understand is that none of the traits in this line directly increase our DPS, meaning to trait deep in ToF we're giving up both our DPS traits and the bonuses of the other 2 lines. This is MORE than enough of a hit to DPS, there should be NO direct penalty to ranged DPS from speccing this line. I'd also like to see the root moved from Pen. Shot, as this one of our highest DPS moves. As well, the 2 piece bonus of this line should likely be updated, I'm all for higher power regen, but it's a pretty small amount.

Endurance Stance: I simply do not go into this stance anymore. I am able to maintain my aggro and power in Precision too easily to even consider it. I'd like to see the current bonuses from it stay the same, but have something extra added to make it more enticing. Perhaps some sort of bonus to CC skills (duration, resist chance, etc). This would fit in line with the 3 trait lines and 3 stances, one for each.

Heightened Senses and Camouflage: I don't feel we should have traits/skills whose only real use by players is for the Moors. Heightened Senses should probably be inherent to Hunters, stop making us change this one trait every time we leave/enter the Moors. Same with Camouflage, there's very few PVE uses for this. I'd like to see bonus damage to shots fired from Camouflage, this would give it some great use in pulling/starts of fights, and give it synergy with skills such as Heartseeker and Swift Bow

Scourging Blow and Unlegacied Agile Rejoiner: I think these need to be changed to something else, I can't possibly justify working these into my rotation over say another QS or Pen shot. We're not a meele class and I don't want us to be. I use Blindside for the focus, low cut for the slow, and SS for the defense buff, the damage component never even factors into my brain.

Strong Draw: What hunter WOULDN'T trait this? And there in lies the problem, this is such an essential trait, every last hunter is gonna get it, and as such we now only have 6 class trait slots instead of 7. Make the bonus of this inherent.

Overall I think the idea of the 3 lines is great, Burst DPS, Sustained DPS, CC, and hope they stay that way. I think the issues with people not speccing ToF is both that we have to sacrifice too much to spec it and that there's not a huge amount of scenarios in the game where CC is direly needed. There's not often 6 mans desperately seeking CC, but if this role was in demand then people would certain be willing to seek and accept ToF Hunters as well as LMs and Burgs.

I like having CC on my Trapper build. It lets me work in areas where single pulls aren't possible and gives me more group options.

The only reason to get into melee range is the Blindside focus pips. My hope for 4 traited Huntsman line: each melee skill gives +1 focus. I can't think of any other way to make more melee a "good thing."

I'm willing to listen, ZC, but I've got my mouse hovering over Desperate Flight...
I have a lowbie RK i still need to lvl up, ya know.

Okay first.... NO... second ...DON"T ... third... PLEASE!


Each line can be useful, so we will throw the baby out with the bathwater instead of doing a lilttle tweaking... less is more. I said it before we do not need drastic changes. They create unbalance and that is not good. Small changes to the things that need changing.

Heightened Senses should be innate period by level 55 I should be able to track invisible mobs. I am a hunter after all.

Not sure where you are going with strength stance, and frankly I am more than a bit concerned.

Huntsman is fine as is, really don't touch it or else.

TOF is good, but can be better. Look why do I need a power buff if I am using CC... logic here people. That power buff is needed where I am putting wood down the range, not where I am slowing things down and keeping a lid on extra adds. Move group poison cure to 2 deep, and then give us something nifty to replace the poison removal like a power bleed to our ROT or bards arrow. That way I am not only holding it down, but making it weaker while I do it. That skill alone would make us more group worthy as CCers. I don't want to be a LM, I want to bring something unique to the table by changing just a few things to this line you could really tempt some hunters to slot it much more often than it is being used now.

You want to play with hunters and melee, great, use endurance stance. It is a perfect fit. You are sacrificing ranged damage to stay low on the threat radar... doesn't that dovetail nicely with a hunter wading in with two weapons flashing in the midday sun? Let it raise our melee +25%, cut cooldown melee skills by 25%, and give us a 25% armour boost. You can still do damage with your ranged attacks at a cost of -15% damage,you will get no bonuses, but you will still be able to get some arrows off at close range. This is where a hunter could take advantage of evades, and parry bonuses as well, just food for thought. Even with a 25% addition of armor we wouldn't be true tanks, no blocks, but by buffing the evade/parry end of the formula we would be an interesting hybird that would be a pretty nice off tank option. We couldn't take the big shots from the bosses, but we could certainly maintain the interests of the secondaries.

Oh yeah... can we get a trident and net? The last suggestion is just me, I would love to see the animation of that. See that is ridiculous.... but so is using wholesale changes after moving hunters four steps in the right direction as of last overhaul.

Enhance our desirablity, tease us down one line or the other. Make the choices difficult, but also functional. That is how you breed diversity in the hunter camp, so that we are not all blow ???? up DPS bursters, machine gunning long haulers, or the poor man's lm. Include the endurance stance suggestion and you give hunters 4 viable options to morph into, not cookie cutters all having the same traits with the same LIs and fitting only one small cog space in the machine.


Tydalmir

P.S. I really do like the power drain suggestion 4 deep into TOF, so can you please at least think about that one?

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

I have a bit of an update on Blogs, shamelessly copied from Orion.

Some of you may have noticed that Kelsen put up a bundle of blogs two days ago http://my.lotro.com/user-1317796/ on his my.lotro.com page and Orion talked about them in a Champion thread. As you can see by that little snippet of information, we are going to attempt to do blogs for upcoming class changes. That being said, I am hoping to post the first iteration of my proposed changes to the Hunter up soon.

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

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Go ahead...use us, abuse us, but please don't try to force us into too much melee

...and remember folks like hunters and ranger-types because of bow first...then cool tricks...like pulling abilities, trapping, slowing, snaring, tracking, harmony, camo, ports.

....now if only we could find, tame, train unique pets...but that won't happen at this late date.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

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http://i.imgur.com/64LxF.jpg

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Originally Posted by Cherep

Don't need any changes to melee skills, don't want any changes to melee skills, most people barely use them as it is. Unless of course you add some tasty debuffs...

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I think that is part of the point. When we are in melee, it never crosses anyone's mind to use melee skills for anything other than the unique buffs or debuffs--parry bonus, interrupt, focus, slow, daze etc.-- For some of us, the idea of a ranged/melee hybrid has always stuck in our heads as something that we might want, but was never viable... even though there have been several attempts at it over the years. Even if it diminishes what we look at as Focus Burn (something that was already diminished with MoM), I welcome a fresh look and real options for different builds.

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Originally Posted by Cubi

Oh lord, this is not gonna be good...Bowmaster is our dps line, why would it not be tied to Strength stance...
Bow and blade warrior, does this means they adding that trait back?

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Because to get the damage related trait set bonuses from the bowmaster traits, you have to be in S:S. This way you can actually pick a stance for the task at hand and choose your traits for actual functionality, like Damage Dealing.... feeling less gimped in S:E is a good thing for groups and for Hunters.


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Overall, I think that these changes sound like they can lead to more options, not less... which I always like. I would very much like to see the details, but generally, anything that makes the class more dynamic and deep is something I will latch onto.

My one and only post till there's more information. Gonna point out a couple of things since ZC you are pilfering the way Graalx2 is running his posts I'm going to point out that in his he's stepping in occasionally and offering up little bits at the least to quiet down any of the overreacting. I know that's not the way you roll but it's food for thought.

Now also stealing from Graalx2's post one of the reasons they are dropping shields from champs is because a champ with a shield is like an inferior guard. So if Huntsman is changed to be more melee oriented then isn't that sort of like being inferior champs? Please elaborate on what you mean by true bow and blade warrior.

I guess since our update most hunters think we are in a pretty good place so this seems odd to us to be discussing big changes again.

No disrespect at all, but this sounds wrong and backwards.

Hunters are absolutely beautiful right now. Please don't change Hunters jut to change Hunters. They're absolutely fine.

Look into Guardians and Wardens, they're going to need some loving. Let Hunters enjoy their changes for now. Trapper is actually darn good and quite useful, especially in OD, Bowmaster was balanced well and Huntsman is killer for DPS. Why stress Melee?

Please reconsider.

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Originally Posted by RinkyTink

Can we have dual wield crossbows AND shields??

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You get to dual wield angry dwarf RKs. PEW PEW

Advance panic may be OK but the actual feedback when tried out could wait for later. When...tried out.

(EDIT

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Originally Posted by SaintBass

...

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Ye gods man - as a rule, demotivational-stuff-found-on-the-internets isn't part of this forum.)

if you ignore all of our yelling and pleading against becoming meele then at least do this

give us a very dmging skill that shoots an arrow with a rope atatched into the enemy then u pull rope pulling them into ur waiting swords, and u could make this like say a 30 yrd distance rather than 40 if u make it do enough dmg, this would be good for up against archers and it would look sooo cool

i also agree that if u make huntsman (i have this traited and like it the way it is) a more meele based it will make them a poor champ after all champs are supposed to be the meele dps

So this is for all the people complaining about the possible huntsman changes.

The statement is - Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.

As a hunter who runs is usually doing a duo or three man WITHOUT a tank many times I am the tank. T2 Skirms (Duoing a three man), NCF, Stoneheight, what have you. I find myself, necessarily, always in melee range with multiple mobs. This is the situation that the changes will likely benefit. Does that mean that huntsman will only be for that? NO! It will just mean that I can further refine my traits for that role.

Melee traits could add buffs, place debuffs on mobs, more speed increases or induction knockback reductions, anything that would help in a melee situation. Win Freaking Win to me.

If I am in a larger group I can change, and really who the hell can't solo every solo / duo encounter without falling back on the UB3R L33T dps of S:S???? (BTW I out DPS and out Threat S:S hunters with my eyes closed....)

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Originally Posted by ZombieJesus

Strong Draw: What hunter WOULDN'T trait this? And there in lies the problem, this is such an essential trait, every last hunter is gonna get it, and as such we now only have 6 class trait slots instead of 7. Make the bonus of this inherent

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Just because something is really good doesn't mean it should be a passive buff, tbh it should probably be the opposite. A trait. Like it is now. If you gave every class every trait that was super awesome as a passive it would completely negate the need for traits.

However, I agree with you 100% on the ToF's line. Loosing the traits for it is enough penalty as is, we don't need - ranged damage %s on top of this.

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Originally Posted by cold_realms

As a hunter who runs is usually doing a duo or three man WITHOUT a tank many times I am the tank. T2 Skirms (Duoing a three man), NCF, Stoneheight, what have you. I find myself, necessarily, always in melee range with multiple mobs. This is the situation that the changes will likely benefit. Does that mean that huntsman will only be for that? NO! It will just mean that I can further refine my traits for that role.

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So you want a tanking line....? This makes this an even worse change if it is what your describing. Even when I'm tanking a mob in melee range I only occasionally buff my parry rating with the melee skill, and that is the only useful melee skill besides our slow. if you're using melee skills you arn't gonna hold agro anyway.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

I have a bit of an update on Blogs, shamelessly copied from Orion.

Some of you may have noticed that Kelsen put up a bundle of blogs two days ago http://my.lotro.com/user-1317796/ on his my.lotro.com page and Orion talked about them in a Champion thread. As you can see by that little snippet of information, we are going to attempt to do blogs for upcoming class changes. That being said, I am hoping to post the first iteration of my proposed changes to the Hunter up soon.

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

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I'm probably in the minority here, especially because I'm in love with the DDO ranger, but knowing what you've accomplished with other classes I'm very interested in hearing what you have in mind.

I hope you'll be able to post some tidbits or thoughts on your general ideas soon.

@Beovar - you know I love your posts!

NO MELEE!!!!!!! JUST NO!


For realz, why change the trait lines again? I think they are fine as is.

Come on guys- seriously- I think they are just punking us. There is no way they thought these were good ideas. I mean, with comments 19:1 in fierce opposition, there is no way they couldn't have easily expected this reaction. I'll bet anyone a gold that Ashton Kutcher is just doing an internship. He's probably doing research for a ?????? new gaming movie or something.

I think it will be mistake to make any changes so soon after the last update. Wait at least another year.

Nirion Rank 9 Hunter
Eoen Rank 6 Guard

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Originally Posted by bastiat1

Come on guys- seriously- I think they are just punking us. There is no way they thought these were good ideas. I mean, with comments 19:1 in fierce opposition, there is no way they couldn't have easily expected this reaction. I'll bet anyone a gold that Ashton Kutcher is just doing an internship. He's probably doing research for a ?????? new gaming movie or something.

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I don't know where you are getting 19:1 fierce opposition... I've seen some skepticism, patience and a few adamant objections... but I am not seeing the clear consensus against such changes when a quick search would show that these ideas have come primarily from this forum and its users.

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Originally Posted by SaintBass

I've seen some skepticism, patience and a few adamant objections... but I am not seeing the clear consensus against such changes when a quick search would show that these ideas have come primarily from this forum and its users.

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i think the main problem, and this is my opinion too, is that they JUST revamped the trait lines. If he wanted to do more he should have done it with the hunter update or postponed the hunter update until he COULD get it all done... the underlying issue is we just got a complete *and good* revamp. What is the point in changing it AGAIN. That is the stupid part, what isengard needs to do to the 6 classes who received an udpate is add new skills, and add new traits into the lines...but not rework the lines again. Also Isengard needs to add 5 set bonuses to match the burgs now. And maybe even add 6 and 7 set bonuses past slotting the cap stone... What Isengard doesn't need to do is completely revamp traitlines that JUST got revamped. Perfect the changes and tweak them is the most we should see.

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Originally Posted by Lithium777

i think the main problem, and this is my opinion too, is that they JUST revamped the trait lines. If he wanted to do more he should have done it with the hunter update or postponed the hunter update until he COULD get it all done... the underlying issue is we just got a complete *and good* revamp. What is the point in changing it AGAIN. That is the stupid part, what isengard needs to do to the 6 classes who received an udpate is add new skills, and add new traits into the lines...but not rework the lines again. Also Isengard needs to add 5 set bonuses to match the burgs now. And maybe even add 6 and 7 set bonuses past slotting the cap stone... What Isengard doesn't need to do is completely revamp traitlines that JUST got revamped. Perfect the changes and tweak them is the most we should see.

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I definitely understand the point about the class having just been worked over, but over time, it has been one of the more neglected and seemingly more difficult class to balance. I also agree that the class functions really well right now... and if there is any complaint its in the lack of certain skill functionality and shallowness of play (as others have mentioned).

One thing that makes me much more welcoming of these (potential) changes is that in the past, changes would be made and they weren't always that great (BKs 10 and 11, MoM BK 7) and we would get these promises to review the changes. Now I see a very different approach, where Turbine has made some really good, measured changes and seeing how those have played out, is putting in the effort to be closer to its design ideals and (hopefully) more engaging to play.

I have leveled a lot of criticism at Turbine in the past for seemingly senseless changes and poor communication... so when I actually see logic to some changes and see continuity in development, I don't really sweat it too much. Of course I want to see the details of these changes and give more specific feedback... and I may not even be that fond of the end result (I did suggest the initial ideas for Fleet Stance on these boards), but I will at the very least participate in the discussion and see what the changes are before I protest them.

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Originally Posted by Lithium777

i think the main problem ... is that they JUST revamped the trait lines.

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That's part of my issue with it, as is the fact that broad changes like this are going to have balance issues.

===

One thing to consider: If they're doing another overhaul this quickly on the heels of the last one, the last one must have failed to achieve its goal. Given the direction the last few updates have been moving, I suspect that Huntsman-based Focus burn builds have been decided to be against the intent of the class, and this is the Final Solution.

Honestly, though, I'm just looking forward to the forum ****storm this is going to cause when it hits. It's gonna be a fun time on the hunter boards for a while.

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Originally Posted by SaintBass

I have leveled a lot of criticism at Turbine in the past for seemingly senseless changes and poor communication... so when I actually see logic to some changes and see continuity in development, I don't really sweat it too much. Of course I want to see the details of these changes and give more specific feedback... and I may not even be that fond of the end result (I did suggest the initial ideas for Fleet Stance on these boards), but I will at the very least participate in the discussion and see what the changes are before I protest them.

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If the changes are good I won't have many problem's... I just don't see the communication here or logic in changing the lines, then turning about and changing then so drastically again. Even from the little information giving it definitely shows a plan to drastically alter the lines, again. Which I just don't understand at all. Now however... if they are giving alternative capstones with this and leaving the originals in place I am all for a legendary trait that changes the function of the line a bit. However, I don't think that is whats going on here.

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Originally Posted by CWood

One thing to consider: If they're doing another overhaul this quickly on the heels of the last one, the last one must have failed to achieve its goal. Given the direction the last few updates have been moving, I suspect that Huntsman-based Focus burn builds have been decided to be against the intent of the class, and this is the Final Solution.

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Which would be odd because they actually said to be the intent of the line... which was a good line. Though if they keep doing this I don't see a final solution ever happening. What they should do is just add a 4th line and new traits to accompany it. This would be the best solution and not have wasted monthes of design and testing for something that isn't even going to stay in game a full 12 monthes. Because that's basicly what this boils down to. Wasted content development time. What should have happened is testing on Alpha, or anywhere between there and BR and if they didn't like it...which I actually think they did tbh, but if they didn't scrap it before it hit BR, much less live. Or only pushed through what would definitely work... maybe trait changes but not other changes like the line changes. The point being they should have either done all the changes they wanted NOW or take the time and release it later, weather that later date be Isengard or earlier I could care less. Point being doing two complete revamps in the space of the year is a waste off resources. Not to mention time and the players level of tolerance. I welcome class updates, stuff almost always needs tweaking but this is absurd.

Though Trapper of Foes I AM looking forward too, less CC could mean as little as removing Pen Shot root, which is less CC technically while imrpvign DPS and utility... I would LOVE a utility line that didn't nerf DPS outside of not traiting DPS, which as mentioned is a hefty penalty as is. The amount of utility a hunter could bring which roots, fears, back up mezes, crafted traps of all natures. A trait for allowing tripwires in combat maybe? Or a trait that detaches the shared cooldown between traps? Those would be helpful and much appreciated as well as modifications and maybe new trap skills and crafted traps that go beyond just simple roots and snares. Make the name trapper of foes mean just that. Utility and mid level DPS would be fantastic.

Alright, what if they did not touch Huntsman quite so much as buff/add a few melee skills? Huntsman can already shoot on the move so why not enhance that ability and integrate melee into the rotation by adding melee skills that burn/add focus without losing DPS? Scourge strike as it stands is mostly unused but if the skill consumes a Barbed Arrow it could return focus. Low Cut could be given a line bonus to proc so that combined with the LI it would have 100% chance to bleed.

A melee skill that consumes focus would be nice. It would be really nice if it burnt all focus at any given time in exchange for different effects dependent upon how much focus was burnt. That might be a trite difficult to code for though. Oh and maybe adding in a critical response skill would be nice.

(Disclaimer: That said the Hunstman line is fine-as-is. If it comes between adding melee skills or taking away the mobile sweet Hunstman that lets me PS in PS, the fast BA'ing before a BA or SB without ever SB'ing, I'll take the ranged mobile Hunstman that comes out with top DPS.)

Regarding the ToF, it would help greatly if the trap/snare did more damage. Penetrating Shot is the really big killer of DPS, if it were changed to a debuff it would make ToF more viable in a group and might still be in line with the cost/benefits of traiting ToF.

EDIT: Real biggy that I DO Want is for the traps/snares when traited ToF to become AoE. Totally imbalanced but there's ways around it like limiting it to 1-2 targets without the LI. Come to think of it, why wouldn't the LI increase the number of mobs effected by traps?

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.

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Good. I always used most of the Bowmaster traits, but never ran in Strength stance, always Precision. The greater chances of missing, fewer crits, higher chance of aggro and higher power loss in Strength stance just wasn't worth using it for a few more DPS.

BTW, didn't Hunters already have an update?

Sad to hear that Trapper will be less CC though.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

I have a bit of an update on Blogs, shamelessly copied from Orion.

Some of you may have noticed that Kelsen put up a bundle of blogs two days ago http://my.lotro.com/user-1317796/ on his my.lotro.com page and Orion talked about them in a Champion thread. As you can see by that little snippet of information, we are going to attempt to do blogs for upcoming class changes. That being said, I am hoping to post the first iteration of my proposed changes to the Hunter up soon.

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

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Oh my Science, making the Hunter more melee oriented? I've VERY low expectations but who knows, maybe it won't be a crushing failure that completely goes against the established functionality and conventions of the class. But I doubt it. Why another update so soon? Seems unneeded. Then again...from the sound of it. All the changes are aimed at diluting all three roles and are the epitome of things unneeded.

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Originally Posted by Lithium777

Even when I'm tanking a mob in melee range I only occasionally buff my parry rating with the melee skill, and that is the only useful melee skill besides our slow. if you're using melee skills you arn't gonna hold agro anyway.

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IMHO, a hunter melee tanking should be using melee skills to:
- have the parry buff up continuously
- daze as often as possible
- interrupt
- build focus (no induction is even more useful in melee)

The more damage you avoid, the less chance you'll lose aggro to the healer, and if the hunter is tanking you probably don't have other dps classes to compete with.


NOTE: I'm not saying that hunters need more melee skills, or buffs to them! :)

I could see further induction reductions helping close range fights though.

Seriously...
Give them a chance before you start qq-ing about the changes. Lets see where they want to take this. A line with better melee skills could be quite nice depending on how its done. It really doesn't make much sense to have two ranged dps trait lines anyway. And as far a trapper of foes is concerned, I see tons of complaints about how the line is bad because the damage output is so low. If they intend to increase the line's dps while easing off on its cc a LITTLE, making the line one that a hunter could trait more than just situationally, then I am all for it. These changes could allow for more play styles than are currently available i.e. making the hunter a better, more versatile, and more enjoyable class.
The only way for that these changes could turn out to be terrible is if we destroy the lines on communication with the developers by launching into THESE CHANGES WILL BE TERRIBLE! tirades on the forums. Try to see their vision for the class and ask questions instead of attacking. We can help to shape the class so long as we don't deter them from listening to us.
--Modus

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Originally Posted by moduz

Seriously...
Give them a chance before you start qq-ing about the changes. Lets see where they want to take this. ...snipped ... The only way for that these changes could turn out to be terrible is if we destroy the lines on communication with the developers by launching into THESE CHANGES WILL BE TERRIBLE! tirades on the forums. Try to see their vision for the class ... snipped

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Why??? We just had a freaking total revamp - one that I happen to love - but none the less, one that required a total revamp in how I played. Now, three months later we are going to be totally revamped again. Say what??? Go change the other classes that have been crying for changes forever.

I don't want my hunter to be a god that does everything. I want an archer. I wouldn't mind having some kind of stalk ability like a Warden has because that IS a hunter skill. Hunters have a bunch of melee skills NOW that do what they should do - put debuffs on so you can get back out of melee range and use your bow.

Why is it that Turbine feels the need to have somebody redesigning the same class 2-3 times a year while other classes have remainded basically unchanged since I started playing. Fix my dang Burglar skills so they actually work and leave my Hunter that does work alone.

All I want for Christmas is the ability to tackle new content WITHOUT having to totally relearn how to play the class I have played since the day I joined.

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Originally Posted by CharlesRollinsWare

Why??? We just had a freaking total revamp - one that I happen to love - but none the less, one that required a total revamp in how I played. Now, three months later we are going to be totally revamped again. Say what??? Go change the other classes that have been crying for changes forever.

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Remember that it was ZC that made the current changes that you happen to love. Unlike previous hunter devs, he's earned a little trust.

Look at our current melee skills. Blindside=3 focus, Agile Rejoinder=Heal, Swift Stroke=Parry/Evade. Where are the melee skills that used for DPS? Look at the melee related class traits, I can only think of 1 off the top of my head and it's a joke. If he's going to give melee a buff or 10, I'm not going to complain. But if we have to sacrifice ranged DPS to get it I'm going to be extremely upset.

Let's wait for more information and then complain about the specific things that we don't like.

Why would one class get 2 updates before others even get one?

i agree on getting less inductions ive had fights where i accidently pull in 1 reg mob and 3 swarms which as far as morale/dmg goes is no prob at all however when i try somehting like qs it takes like 5 times as long making me loose about half my hp

something else id like to see is something added to blood arrow becouse at the moment it is the exact same as pen shot (unless there is a legacy that i havnt seen yet that buffs it after all i only just reached 53)

and i think we should get more skills, and when one of u said 20 new ones thats over exagerating we only get skills on our even lvls and ever since i reached like 30 its every four lvls and now about evey 10 almost so id expect about 5 or less new skills

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Originally Posted by drexele

i agree on getting less inductions ive had fights where i accidently pull in 1 reg mob and 3 swarms which as far as morale/dmg goes is no prob at all however when i try somehting like qs it takes like 5 times as long making me loose about half my hp

something else id like to see is something added to blood arrow becouse at the moment it is the exact same as pen shot (unless there is a legacy that i havnt seen yet that buffs it after all i only just reached 53)

and i think we should get more skills, and when one of u said 20 new ones thats over exagerating we only get skills on our even lvls and ever since i reached like 30 its every four lvls and now about evey 10 almost so id expect about 5 or less new skills

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With my current trait setup I have 51 hunter skills. I also have 11 other non-class related skills and then there are consumable clickies.

That is a lot of skills to manage, not that complexity is a bad thing. Consider how long different combat situations last. Solo combat lasts a very short time as it's mostly a dps race versus your morale bar. Small group combat and skimirshes similarly last a short time against trash and slightly longer against bosses. Even long boss raid fights don't incorporate the entire use of a skill bar.

So when considering how many skills are enough think about how many skills can and should be used in rotation during fights and how additional skills would (or wouldn't) add to the effectiveness or fun of combat.

That is why I'm not in favor of blanket skill additions just for the sake of measuring character progression. In other words, character progression could be measured in better ways than simply adding skills. Adding skills should be to flesh out character functionality and have a specific purpose behind their addition.

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Originally Posted by FyreBrand

What no class in this game needs, every update, or even at all is more skills. Skill bloat in the game is getting unwieldy. Possibly some new traits might be interesting, but skills no. When every action bar is jam packed with skills (what is that 60 slots?) there doesn't need to be more icons/clickies as a measure of progression.

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Next to Warden's Hunter's have the least amount of active skills in the game, with the travel plugin added i have 1 and a half skill bars empty of skills (minimum!) and just filled with consumables, shortcuts(even to emotes!), not skills. and before you ask, yes I have every skill except ports on my skill bar. So not sure what you're going on about this time.

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Originally Posted by slack_n_hash

IMHO, a hunter melee tanking should be using melee skills to:
- have the parry buff up continuously
- daze as often as possible
- interrupt
- build focus (no induction is even more useful in melee)

The more damage you avoid, the less chance you'll lose aggro to the healer, and if the hunter is tanking you probably don't have other dps classes to compete with.

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Maybe, the parry buff you're right about. Interupt shouldn't be worked into a normal rotation though, I personally don't ever run out of focus even with a full focus burn rotation.

Edit: I am all for a buff to melee skills if they want to do it... fine go for it. I just don't think they need to revamp the trait lines after they just did.

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Originally Posted by Lithium777

Next to Warden's Hunter's have the least amount of active skills in the game, with the travel plugin added i have 1 and a half skill bars empty of skills (minimum!) and just filled with consumables, shortcuts(even to emotes!), not skills. and before you ask, yes I have every skill except ports on my skill bar. So not sure what you're going on about this time.



Maybe, the parry buff you're right about. Interupt shouldn't be worked into a normal rotation though, I personally don't ever run out of focus even with a full focus burn rotation.

Edit: I am all for a buff to melee skills if they want to do it... fine go for it. I just don't think they need to revamp the trait lines after they just did.

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What don't you get? 51 skills is still a lot and how many skills other classes have is irrelevant. We don't need more skills just for the sake of having them. What added functionality is needed to the hunter skill set that can't be incorporated into an existing skill or trait function? So I don't really get what you're going on about. Skills for the sake of adding skills is poor design. Do you actually have a reason to add more skills?

Lua mods aren't a reason to add (or not) more skills. I don't run mods at all and requiring their use for functionality is also bad design. Mods break with updates, often have bugs, and aren't always continually supported by the author which can leave users hanging when the client changes. Mods should never be a reason to change basic gameplay (adding skills or not, combat mechanics, etc).

Outside of this crazy idea that updates must mean skill bloat, and without any more details, the basic idea that hunters can have a melee focused build and untying S:S from BM sound good. I'm curious how ToF will end up. I think it's a lot like champs ardour, in that it can be used, but is always marginalized by BM and HM.

The sooner we can get some info about ToF and the other changes, the better.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.

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Bowmaster is currently a solid line for hunters, particularly with the lowering of threat and power penalties and the makeover to Burn Hot. As a hunter who primarily runs in Precision Stance, I think doing away with the trait set bonuses that apply only in Strength Stance would make this line more attractive.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.

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Referring to melee combat around hunters makes us nervous. While our melee skills have their uses, we know that even up close our best bet is to shoot stuff point-blank. Bonuses that involve melee skills are not going to fly.

I like the current Hunstman line for the traits that help with focus as well as the reduced inductions from the trait set bonuses. Basically, things that allow us to use our bow skills in melee. Personally, I also like Hunstman for groups for the higher attack rate. I might not have the burst damage I'd have with BM, but I think I come out ahead in the long run.

The short version: Hunstman is good for letting us use bow skills in melee combat...don't try to make us use actual melee skills!

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

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This may not be a bad thing. ToF is a combination of two hunter roles that are not necessarily related...crowd control and low-threat dps. It's always been sad that the threat-lowering traits in the Trapper line come at the cost of damage. It may be smart to trait lower-threat for a raid, it's not smart to gimp your dps. Most hunters hide from ToF.

I've actually been using ToF for the trash pulls in the disease, poison, and boss wings of OD. Traited for ToF (and a helpful legacy), a hunter is a CC machine. I have more CC skills available than I can coordinate the use of, quite frankly.

The bad thing about ToF is that a hunter can't permalock anything without traiting the ToF capstone. Without the capstone, you are only good as an emergency backup to someone else. There's no middle ground.

The short version: Split up CC from Endurance stance since the two are essentially mutually exclusive. If CC remains one of the trait lines, provide some middle ground so we have at least a roundabout way to perma-CC something (rotate Bard's and Distracting Shot, for instance) without needing the capstone.

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Originally Posted by FyreBrand

What don't you get? 51 skills is still a lot and how many skills other classes have is irrelevant. We don't need more skills just for the sake of having them. What added functionality is needed to the hunter skill set that can't be incorporated into an existing skill or trait function? So I don't really get what you're going on about. Skills for the sake of adding skills is poor design. Do you actually have a reason to add more skills?

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new skills can be skill upgrades. Any level cap upgrade comes with new skills of some form. It's inevitable. You don't like it, dont buy the expansion. Beneath Care was a new skill that replaced beneath Notice, whats wrong with that? Chill out.

Of course it depends how this all plays out. However, the developers have always seemed to have an interest in making hunters melee and bow fighters. They put might on our items, they put in useless melee traits, they make a legendary slot a melee weapon, etc.

The last update was great, both for sorting out some traits, but also because it seemed to be finally acknowledging that we aren't a melee class. The update was mostly positive in my view because it made 3 usable trait lines. I *like* this. It makes the class fun.

Turning huntsman into a melee+bow line goes in the opposite direction. It reduces the viable traitlines to 2: high aggro burst damage and CC. BTW, I don't have much interest in either of these. Now, it is certainly possible that ZC will maintain the 3 viable lines while adding some melee functionality, but that is not at all how his initial post reads. It might be that he disconnects traits from stances which would add a ton of flexibility to trait lines and builds. It may even be that he does this without nerfing anything (though I think this is exceedingly unlikely based on what I know of prior updates).

But on the off-chance that this can end well, I don't really believe it I'm just trying to be a good citizen, the only melee I'm interested in has some sort of dual functionality. Blindside: interrupt, focus; dazing blow: stun; AR: heal. I have no others in any quickslot and it is extremely unlikely I will add any that do not match that level of functionality. I will never put a melee skill in a quickslot simply because it does melee damage. If I wanted a champ, I'd roll one.

Finally, the last update maintained the possibility that hunters can be premier dps, at least among the non-premium classes. ZCs proposal seems to point in the direction of lame utility class. If so, I'm not interested.

If the developers want to fix something they could start with scaling the skills that haven't had any along with the LI legacies that are useless. They could combine focus and induction crit, there is no reason to punish hunters in this regard, they could either dump or combined the ranged evade and block mitigation, and they could add new LI legacies that, for example, might boost Strength of the Earth in a real way. They could add an LI legacy that makes BN an aggro dump, etc. etc.

The absolute last thing I want to be turned into is a utility class. I want one specific major role - DPS. I don't want to become a failsauce warden with a bow. Don't buff my melee damage, give me some range upgrades if anything. Give me burst damage like a tactical god-mode RK or minstrel.



Here's the dilemma though, increased DPS needs to be off-set with a decrease in survivability. This is why Blood-Arrow was one of the most thoughtful additions to the class I've seen. I would love to see a new stance/legacy/upgrade where DPS could be increased at the expense of morale/survivability/avoidances. I'd also like to see some more skills with low base/big crits that cost morale.



And, when can we get Focus + Induction criticals either upgraded or combined if they are to remain at +25%?

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Originally Posted by FyreBrand

What no class in this game needs, every update, or even at all is more skills. Skill bloat in the game is getting unwieldy. Possibly some new traits might be interesting, but skills no. When every action bar is jam packed with skills (what is that 60 slots?) there doesn't need to be more icons/clickies as a measure of progression.

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Totally agree. Ever seen some videos of DDO? That was a game where there were so many skillbars (all packed with item clickies). I love D&D, but that aspect of DDO really turned me off.

And on topic, I think skill upgrades would be nice. Maybe Blood Arrow will have a small AOE? Maybe Cry of the Predator will become AOE? Maybe our Trap and Snare will have their cooldowns unlinked? Maybe we won't need to use multiple item slots for all the various crafted traps anymore? (I think ZC mentioned the possibility of this in the last hunter update.) Maybe Bow of the Righteous will work based on a percent of maximum power (say 0.5 - 1% per shot) instead of a fixed number? Looking forward to more blog updates on this!

It wouldn't suprise me if zombie has recently re-watched the LOTR trilogy and thought to himself.. 'Hmm, hunter's need to be more like Legolas'. In fact, it was stated in the post about Champions that champs are based on Gimli and because he didnt use a shield then neither should champs, even when tanking.

No class will every be perfect but Hunters are far from being in a bad place. Why the need for another update so soon after the previous one?

Please Noo! I just made a new hunter and wanted to explore some of the new updates, now I hear you're changing them! No! Go Bye Bye!

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

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Hmm, I have mixed feelings about this really. As it currently stands I love the Huntsman line and use that all the time, its perfect, I don't want much changes there.

In fact, the only thing I'd like to change is the animation time for the Burn Hot skill, other then that I'm happy about the current state of the hunter. The next update can feature some skill boosts, but not more skills. We already have a LOT of skills, no need for more, just improvements.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

I have a bit of an update on Blogs, shamelessly copied from Orion.

Some of you may have noticed that Kelsen put up a bundle of blogs two days ago http://my.lotro.com/user-1317796/ on his my.lotro.com page and Orion talked about them in a Champion thread. As you can see by that little snippet of information, we are going to attempt to do blogs for upcoming class changes. That being said, I am hoping to post the first iteration of my proposed changes to the Hunter up soon.

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

---

Between the fact that, like several have mentioned, we just got an update, and the odd direction ZC suggests we might be going here.. I honestly had to look back and make sure this wasn't posted on April 1..... :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

---

Personaly, before actually seeing what they have in mind, I only have issues with the ToF line. Why remove CC? I personally love CC. I'm traitted in ToF line even while solo because of it (only 2 deep, but still).
What is wrong with the ToF line is not having too much CC.
- The problem is the DPS penalty which is just too much considering you will be loosing all the benefits from the other two lines. - remove it or reduce it to 5% (total)
- The problem is that you cannot place the two trap skills we have simultaneously. - separate the cooldowns
- The problem is that we can only track one creature at a time, making it not a viable possibility to avoid an enemy in stealth missions. - make the racial traking skills toggle skills that show us all the enemies of that type on the map and add a general track skill to track a single foe of the toggled type beyond the map limits - like we do now.
- The problem is the excedingly long cooldown on penetrating shot after the upgrade. - just reduce the cooldown a tad.

If anything, give us slightly MORE Crowd Control, not less...

"Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior."

... does it mean a more dynamic way to fight for hunters ?

Huntsman+precision stance could be THE way to go in the Moors if you are able to fire on the move and handle closed combat. If so, ok we will be true Bow and Blade warriors ;).

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Originally Posted by Lucanthanas

Personaly, before actually seeing what they have in mind, I only have issues with the ToF line. Why remove CC? I personally love CC. I'm traitted in ToF line even while solo because of it (only 2 deep, but still).
What is wrong with the ToF line is not having too much CC.
- The problem is the DPS penalty which is just too much considering you will be loosing all the benefits from the other two lines. - remove it or reduce it to 5% (total)
- The problem is that you cannot place the two trap skills we have simultaneously. - separate the cooldowns
- The problem is that we can only track one creature at a time, making it not a viable possibility to avoid an enemy in stealth missions. - make the racial traking skills toggle skills that show us all the enemies of that type on the map and add a general track skill to track a single foe of the toggled type beyond the map limits - like we do now.
- The problem is the excedingly long cooldown on penetrating shot after the upgrade. - just reduce the cooldown a tad.

If anything, give us slightly MORE Crowd Control, not less...

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more? no... less is good, we have enough crowd control - even without this traitline - with it its to much in my opionion.

Quote:

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I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

---

i do not want to be a blade warrior, if i want to be one, i`ll play a champion.

and for the rest: i`ll think about, if there are more details.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caranthon

i do not want to be a blade warrior, if i want to be one, i`ll play a champion.

---

This. Very much this.

We have plenty of melee classes, and only one dedicated ranged class. Let's keep it that way, shall we?

I have to say I like the recent changes. I play my hunter a lot more because of them. But I have to agree with the people saying lets wait and see before we riot. I do believe that ZC has earned our trust and we should see what ideas are being offered before we hang anyone.

I think the idea has always been for us to have 3 trait lines that we actually want to use. Right now I see a mix of two. I feel this is just an attempt to give us more options, not take away what we have.

I would like to see a buff to agile rejoiner heal. I viable heal option for hunters would be awesome. And if any other melee skill can give focus I would be all for that as well.

i'm confused... really... this hunter community is making me wonder...

first... everyone complains about how our melee skills aren't worth spit... and complain about how our DPS suffers in melee range of an opponent... THEN complains when ZC tells us that melee is going to be buffed!

remember, folks, hunter class is based on Legolas... and while Legolas was a true master of the bow, he was equally adept at slicing orcs to pieces in melee. hunter is NOT EXCLUSIVELY an archer.

now lets look at trait lines for classes:

LM: 1 for tactical DPS, 1 for pets, 1 for CC
RK: 1 for DoTs, 1 for HoTs, 1 for kiting DPS
Ch: 1 for AoE, 1 for ST, 1 for tanking
Gu: 1 for threat, 1 for DPS, 1 for mitigating damage
Wa: 1 for heals, 1 for threat, 1 fpr DPS
Mi: 1 for heals, 1 for buffs, 1 for DPS
Ca: 1 for buffs, 1 for heals, 1 for DPS/pets

there is a basic theme here, that each trait line does something inherently different... now lets look at hunters

1 for ranged DPS
1 for ranged DPS
1 for CC

doesn't that look strange to you? bowmaster makes every arrow hit harder, and huntsman makes you shoot more arrows in the same period as time... but they serve the exact same function: ranged DPS. some say solo vs raid. the trouble is, we should be able to use any of the three lines equally as viable regardless of party size, dependant on class makeup. IE, if there are three hunters in the group, they should each be able to run a different trait line and still benefit the group, just like how extra minnies can run WS or tier ballads, just like extra LMs can trait for pets or tactical DPS, just like extra captains can trait however they want.

right now... hunters are STILL pigeonholed into running heartseeker in the moors, or running focus-burn in raids. the gap is narrower between bowmaster and huntsman than it once was, but they still function the same way: stand still, use inductions, use focus, DPS ST. at least RKs two DPS line function differently: run around spiking... or stand still DoTing. champs go ST or AoE...

think of update 2 as part 1 of the hunter update, just like update 2 was part 1 of the Legendary Item update.

my personal view toward our melee skills... right now they are only useful for their utility. this ought not so to be... our melee skills should make up for the lost ranged damage when we are in melee. and right now, in melee, all we do is lose out on ranged DPS.

/end_wall_of_text
/enter_the_bacon

Fine. Then give us a line that does ranged aoe and a line that does ranged single target. Or a line that has kiting dps and a line for stationary. *These* I can live with. They match what the class is built to do well. A melee line is a line that encourages us to do something that the class does badly, especially in comparison to the numerous other classes that do melee well. That line is very unlikely to be usable which means it narrows our flexibility and reduces the experience of playing the class. I don't see why this is complicated.

There is a small chance that hunter melee skills and traits are rethought enough that hunters can actually make a distinctive and productive melee contribution that other classes can't--this I *might* be able to get behind (but I'd probably still rather play a champ).

The role of the hunter is ranged dps. Secondarily CC. Just like all the classes FL listed, we have a primary role that we excel at and others we don't. No one asks a loremaster to come along for tactical dps and if loremasters had to depend on that to get in groups they'd be out of luck. That line is a soloing line. Just like our bowmaster line is. Just like Guardian overpower, warden dps, etc. The same could be said of basically every class. To argue they all have 3 different functions while we have two is misleading, to say the least. The problem with the proposal is that is sounds like it will make hunters less good at their primary function. If so, this is definitely a step backwards.

The portion of the hunter community that fails to understand this or obscure it behind simplistic comparisons makes me sick (not really, just trying to get in the hyperbolic spirit of those among us who are prospecting on the bright side).

ZC --

Perhaps we should wait on any Hunter changes this soon to a major revamp. Give things a bit more time to settle (and for the new relics to come out, which will change builds again). Can we revisit these Hunter changes in another 3 months?

If you were to change anything, change Strength of the Earth to Morale every second instead of ICMR like it is now.

Personally, I wouldn't even change that. Don't change a thing until another few months have gone by, and more gameplay testing has been done. Things aren't perfect now I'll agree, but we also haven't been able to do enough poking and prodding to see what should be tweaked. And tweaks are what are needed, not another wholesale revamp.

Please.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZombieJesus

Guys, I think this is a rare opportunity to voice our issues with the hunter class in a thread the dev is clearly reading. While I agree with the general consensus that the proposed changes to our trait lines would be a poor move (sorry ZC, what you're suggesting would be far too drastic a play style change) to simply say 'don't change us, we're fine' seems somewhat short sighted. I would encourage you to list even your small grievances with the class and hope they will be addressed.

Here are some of my own:

SoTe's Morale regen: both the 3 peice Huntsman line bonus, and the Major meele legacy. These are now essentially worthless due to the very short duration of the ability, these need to be replaced or changed.

Focus/Induction Crit legacies: These need to be a single legacy, the math has been done on them and the increase to overall DPS is far too low to justify them being 2 separate legacies.

Beneath Notice/Beneath Care: This ability needs to have a direct aggro dump component to it and to have the trait Stealthy Shot changed to something entirely else. It's probably our worst trait currently.

Heart of the Bard: This trait needs to be changed due to the now much lower CD of HS.

Trapper of Foes Line: I understand the rationale of the reduced DPS for CC, however what Turbine seems to have failed to understand is that none of the traits in this line directly increase our DPS, meaning to trait deep in ToF we're giving up both our DPS traits and the bonuses of the other 2 lines. This is MORE than enough of a hit to DPS, there should be NO direct penalty to ranged DPS from speccing this line. I'd also like to see the root moved from Pen. Shot, as this one of our highest DPS moves. As well, the 2 piece bonus of this line should likely be updated, I'm all for higher power regen, but it's a pretty small amount.

Endurance Stance: I simply do not go into this stance anymore. I am able to maintain my aggro and power in Precision too easily to even consider it. I'd like to see the current bonuses from it stay the same, but have something extra added to make it more enticing. Perhaps some sort of bonus to CC skills (duration, resist chance, etc). This would fit in line with the 3 trait lines and 3 stances, one for each.

Heightened Senses and Camouflage: I don't feel we should have traits/skills whose only real use by players is for the Moors. Heightened Senses should probably be inherent to Hunters, stop making us change this one trait every time we leave/enter the Moors. Same with Camouflage, there's very few PVE uses for this. I'd like to see bonus damage to shots fired from Camouflage, this would give it some great use in pulling/starts of fights, and give it synergy with skills such as Heartseeker and Swift Bow

Scourging Blow and Unlegacied Agile Rejoiner: I think these need to be changed to something else, I can't possibly justify working these into my rotation over say another QS or Pen shot. We're not a meele class and I don't want us to be. I use Blindside for the focus, low cut for the slow, and SS for the defense buff, the damage component never even factors into my brain.

Strong Draw: What hunter WOULDN'T trait this? And there in lies the problem, this is such an essential trait, every last hunter is gonna get it, and as such we now only have 6 class trait slots instead of 7. Make the bonus of this inherent.

Overall I think the idea of the 3 lines is great, Burst DPS, Sustained DPS, CC, and hope they stay that way. I think the issues with people not speccing ToF is both that we have to sacrifice too much to spec it and that there's not a huge amount of scenarios in the game where CC is direly needed. There's not often 6 mans desperately seeking CC, but if this role was in demand then people would certain be willing to seek and accept ToF Hunters as well as LMs and Burgs.

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Great post! I agree, particularly about the TOF line. I'd love to use it more, but the penalty is way too high considering you're giving up the bonuses you'd getting traiting the other lines then getting a penalty on top of it.
I liked the last update, but I would like to be able to use the TOF line some.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

I have a bit of an update on Blogs, shamelessly copied from Orion.

Some of you may have noticed that Kelsen put up a bundle of blogs two days ago http://my.lotro.com/user-1317796/ on his my.lotro.com page and Orion talked about them in a Champion thread. As you can see by that little snippet of information, we are going to attempt to do blogs for upcoming class changes. That being said, I am hoping to post the first iteration of my proposed changes to the Hunter up soon.

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

---

I've got a better idea. Restore Strength of the Earth so it fully replenishes our power again.

EDIT: ...and leave the rest of our "stuff" alone.

And, thanks for editing my post Celestrata. You must be joking. Really. You removed my implied cussing, which I entered using ampersands and dollar signs? Really?

Off-topic, this morning I went shopping @ the store and spent $1.00. (<----Celestrata, please censor this too!)

Editing the above posted list of traitlines for better accuracy/fairer treatment. Top is fairer treatment, bottom is lumping.

LM: 1 for DPS, 1 for pets, 1 for CC
RK: 1 for sustained DPS, 1 for burst DPS, 1 for HoTs
Ch: 1 for AoE, 1 for ST, one useless one
Gu: 1 for threat, 1 for DPS, 1 for mitigating damage
Wa: 1 for heals, 1 for threat, 1 fpr DPS
Mi: 1 for heals, 1 for DPS and one useless one
Ca: 1 for buffs, 1 for heals, 1 useless one
HNT: 1 for Ranged burst DPS w/ threat, 1 for sustained ranged DPS w/less threat, CC (mostly useless but functional)

OR,

LM: 1 for tactical DPS, 1 for CC , one useless one
RK: 2 for tactical DPS, 1 for HoTs
Ch: 1 for AoE, 1 for ST, one useless one
Gu: 2 for tanking, 1 for DPS
Wa: 2 for tanking, 1 fpr DPS
Mi: 1 for heals, 1 for DPS and one useless one
Ca: 1 for buffs, 1 for heals, 1 useless one
HNT: 2 for ranged DPS, CC (mostly useless but functional)

Why am I not surprised that most of the posts here are people screaming "NO NO NO NO" at the top of their lungs without giving 10 seconds of actual thought to the situation? How about this - go to your corner, sit down, and be quite while the adults are talking? Some of us actually have a measurable reading comprehension and would like to have a civil discourse to come up with possible ideas and/or suggestion without having to filter through 4 pages of people who are in a state of panic over as-yet-unknown changes.

For me, I like the idea of a Bow & Blade warrior. Maybe I'm old-school, but I enjoyed the Luclin/ POP days of Everquest when rangers had the option to focus on ranged combat or melee combat, or even do some of both. It was comforting knowing that I could switch between ranged damage or melee damage depending on which was the best option for a particular fight. I was even happy when one of the WoW developers mentioned that one of their concepts for improving hunter survivability in PvP there was to increase the classes melee damage enough to make simply hugging the hunter not the automatic best option for non-melee classes.

Of course I'm also one of the "blasphemous" hunters who dares to finish of a monster that gets into melee range with melee skills (and has some extra melee damage ranks on his LI) instead of simply freaking out and spending more time getting range than it would take to finish said monster off with melee. So to me the option of being able to take down the unseen add that joined the fight without having to run around gaining distance and the attention of a whole bunch more monsters is actually attractive.

Heck it MIGHT even get me out to try the moors once or twice. Personally I find the game of "shoot, burn cooldowns to get away, shoot again" that you annoyances call "hunter PvP" stale and boring. Having the option to decide if I want to try to finish off a 2/3 dead melee class who closed the range with melee or to try to get back to range with the attendant options might just make me want to dabble in MMORPG PvP agai. Tha is something I haven't done since the very early days of WoW (as in before any server could field a full raid of level-capped characters).

and that's the other thing i don't get...

how does melee buff = ranged nerf? how? how?

right now, if a mob closes into melee with us, it reduces our ranged DPS... how? melee auto-attacks do less damage than ranges auto attacks, inductions get interrupted, hunter gets CC'd... and melee attacks do spit for damage... so typically a hunter will CC or kite, which further reduces DPS due to movement. you may like that style of play... i do not. i prefer to stand toe-to-toe, as do enough others that turbine has realized that melee skills need to be buffed.

for 4 years people on these forums have complained that melee skills are not worth using. ZC just said they are going to fix that. read the official hunter class description. it says hunters are BOTH good archers and good MELEE. the melee part has obviously not been approved by the community. a bow and blade line could buff melee to what it's supposed to be WITHOUT nerfing ranged damage output.

everybody agrees that we hunters have ONE good ranged DPS line... fine... combine the two ranged DPS lines into one. (face it bowmaster still sucks) and make another line for those in the community which want 5 useless skill made into something that's actually useful.

i can't believe people are against a class buff. you can't use a melee skill at the same time as a ranged skill... if all they do is ADD a 4 HM bonus to add +100% melee damage, and remove the S:S req from BM, how is that a nerf in any way?

yes update2 was a great update for hunters. it made 2 useless traitlines less useless. and made our capstones actually worth traiting. but it didn't fix hunters completely... we still have 5 useless melee skills. the utility benefits from skills that should be available for DPS.

nobody is asking that hunters are turned into champs. just that melee skills are useful in combination with ranged skills so that our DPS doesn't go down when we are in melee.

and that 3/4 ToF is useful... right now ToF is only useful going all in for the chain mez capstone

ZC said this:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

You all get super melee buffs that allow you to go toe-to-toe in the moors, combined huntman and bowmaster lines, and no narrowing of flexibility of ranged dps from the above.

On the changes, you are wishcasting. Where does it say you will be able to go toe-to-toe in the moors? Where does it say that focus and induction will be combined with no net nerf to either? One thing he did say is that CC is going to take a hit. Nothing in what ZC has said (so far) says what you say it says. You want to imagine that he has promised a pot of enhancements at the end of a developer's rainbow. Reading comprehension ftw.

Moreover, it was posted asking for input. ZC did not ask to only have input from people who agree with what he has proposed, despite your efforts to police the forum for him.

On the discourse, two people on this page have been insulting to the community they disagree with which is supposedly either childish or making them sick. Not surprisingly they are the same people celebrating their own reasonableness and maturity. Self-awareness ftw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EvilTreerat

Why am I not surprised that most of the posts here are people screaming "NO NO NO NO" at the top of their lungs without giving 10 seconds of actual thought to the situation? How about this - go to your corner, sit down, and be quite while the adults are talking? Some of us actually have a measurable reading comprehension and would like to have a civil discourse to come up with possible ideas and/or suggestion without having to filter through 4 pages of people who are in a state of panic over as-yet-unknown changes.

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By adult, do you mean condescending?

It's okay to voice disapproval over potential "improvements" that could damage the hunter class mechanics. Or would you prefer LOTRO goes live with something terrible, and we can all yell and scream on the go live date? Maybe they'll fix it then. Maybe they'll fix it in a faster time frame than the many months it took to fix the LI lottery system and radiance gating.

I'll go sit in my corner and be "quite" now.

first... i was responding in kind to all the stuart little posts...

second... i don't give a spit about the moors, and none of my comments supporting the buff of melee skills have anything to do with the moors. seriously... i'm rank 4... that should tell you how little i care for the moors.

third... i haven't celebrated any maturity or reasonableness at all... i only celebrate bacon and the end of wars

fourth... read my disclaimer signature... you should know by now that my brashness is totally faked for entertainment only... you've read the hunter forums long enough to know i've been here from march 07...

fifth... exactly... ZC only mention less CC... nowhere did he mention lower ranged DPS... and yet so many people act like "bow and blade" means ranged DPS nerf... explain to me how "bow and blade" means ranged DPS nerf? especially when melee is part of the class advertisement; part of the class description.

sixth... a lot more than 2 people have been disrespectful in this thread. "this page" can mean anywhere from 10 posts to 100 posts, depending on what each user set the browser to display.

seventh... i ran out of bacon this weekend while my account was stolen right out from under me. thankfully, Turbined banned it before anything could be taken from it. only reason i mention this, is that i couldn't post in this thread for several days because of the situation, and so it festered within me about all the stuart little posts.

eighth... there have been several very long threads hotly debating whether hunters should have decent melee capabilities... and the only conclusion derived: is that there are enough people that say that hunter melee skills are useless, and enough people that point out that melee is clearly in the hunter class description, that hunter melee needs to be buffed into usefulness. again, nobody is asking for hunters to melee like a champion. just that hunter melee skills aren't useless.

ninth... i'm sick anyway, not because of the forums, but because i'm actually sick... and i'm not asking for sympathy... just simply that everyone quits screaming so loudly about "if you want to melee, go roll a champ." (i will also update my previous post to remove the word sick)

tenth... [edit:] and nowhere did i represent that my examples of possible changes were in any way implied by ZC's post

eleventh... i've now counted to ten, and have such calmed down.

Forgotten Legend:

OK, I conflated you with EvilTreeRat unfairly. True enough.

But still. You note that lotro has always thought of the hunter as a good melee warrior such that they even advertise it in the class description. You seem to think that this means that the devs will finally take it seriously because ZC wants to commit some undetermined part of a traitline to it. To which I will simply respond that the devs have for years mistakenly thought they created a melee/bow class when all along you and most of the other people who have been playing since 2007 have known full well that they had done nothing of the sort. I built my hunter based on this forum. The forum is correct. The developers are not.

In other words, for 4 years the devs have not understood the class they created. Update 2 basically acknowledges the truth of the situation. Finally. So, ZC comes along and says that he is going to actually make the hunter class that was originally advertised even though the devs have never demonstrated their ability to do that with the result that the class has had useless skills, useless traits and badly designed trait lines. You choose to assume two things. 1.) that ZC will solve the problem that no other developer has. OK, maybe. I'd like to see more details and if there were a line on this in Vegas I'm pretty sure there would be longshot odds on ZC. I'll stick with the smart money (along with plenty of others who have responded). 2.) you assume that the changes will result in a net benefit in the combined bowmaster line. Maybe, but I seriously doubt it. 1+2=wishcasting. Sure, it's more optimistic, but it's no more reasonable than people who think a combined ranged dps line is likely to gimp one or the other build or that committing a trait line to melee (the 6th best melee in the game! Hooray!) is a waste of a line that reduces flexibility. ZC's last update demonstrates a good understanding of the class, but that doesn't mean the developers like it or know how to implement their ideas correctly. This is probably part of why he asked for feedback in the first place.

What you have is an opinion (which on the surface looks like a commentary on the "Stuart Littles"--no doubt a reasonable and justified characterization). You support this opinion with things like your comparison of class traitlines (which should be stickied in every class forum as a standing troll post). Based on what we have to work with (next to nothing) there is no more reason to be optimistic than pessimistic (perhaps less?). You are hopeful (Forgotten Legend says: "i can't believe people are against a class buff" (wth?!?)). I congratulate you on your optimism and I sincerely hope you get well soon.

first i will give a suggestion then start yelling

on the topic of aminations (i believe someone on page four mentioned it) i would like to see a shorter animation on purge pioson which in combat takes a fair bit of time away from pew pewing and between fights it can take a while to heal a fellowship. also i would like to see our sneek skill (the one u can move in while using) last something like twenty seconds or at least a legacy that would allow it

now alot of u have posted very long posts that SAY THE SAME THING if u dont read other posts and just skip all the other ones at least make urs short as in when u type u dont need to scroll or smaller

now i maybe wrong but i thought bowmaster was supposed to be bighiter and huntsman dps, not both dps

I'll wait and see, but I can't this being good at present. A true bow and sword expert? I like the geater use of traps idea, and better DPS idea ranged..but I believe hunters were only able to "defend themselves in melee in need" was the quote from the hunter class video/description.

If you are planning to leave us less than max ranged DPS and make us less than max melee and max CC as well then I'll be very unhappy. I don't melee much, nor do I want to. I play ranged because with a 256ms latency in NZ the "you must face target" gets extremely annoying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

---

I remember the good job you did back on the RK subforum, ZC. Here's hoping to have a good discussion here about Hunters!

I have to start with the same general concern voiced many times in this thread: we just absorbed a wide-ranging shuffle of trait lines, so it is surprising to see this again.

Specific thoughts:
1. If BM and S:S are split, what happens to the threat/power tradeoffs for increased damage?
2. By "Bow and Blade" you mean Bow and Weapon, right? My hobbit has been working on bringing up a new 2A club; I hope I'm not going to be sorry.
3. If the changes allow us to do certain roles (spike damage, sustained DPS, CC) better, then that is great. If they nerf the peak performance in any role, that will be bad.


.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lithium777

the cap stone will remove the induction off ports and make them usable in combat, it will also not give the people in range a choice if they can come. Trapper of Friends.

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That gives me an idea.... ToF traitline would allow Desperate Flight to work as an AoE for your whole group to escape!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GSO86

That gives me an idea.... ToF traitline would allow Desperate Flight to work as an AoE for your whole group to escape!

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And that gives me an idea for a new skill (maybe the hunter forced emote):

Desperate Cowardice:
CD: 1 hour
Target: 1 Fellowship member
Effect: Sends the target to the nearest rez circle.

/sh D2 <Can I have it?> <Reward:> 3k

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SaintBass

I don't know where you are getting 19:1 fierce opposition... I've seen some skepticism, patience and a few adamant objections... but I am not seeing the clear consensus against such changes when a quick search would show that these ideas have come primarily from this forum and its users.

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Wow, SaintBass, then you missed it badly, heh.

I went back and tallied up all the responses right up to the point Bastiat1 said "19 to 1". I included his own post in opposition, of course, as he would naturally count himself. I did not count posts that didn't include some fairly clear viewpoint. I did not double-count people who made multiple posts. It came out 21 to 3, with 6 others in a "wait and see" mode. So 19 to 1 isn't too far off...the opposition, PARTICULARLY the opposition to shifting hunters more toward melee combat, is pretty darn strong.

Yes, yes, I know that 21:3 reduces to 7:1 which is very different from 19:1, but it's still 21 people saying 'yuck' while very few are saying 'awesome'. Bastiat's _sense_ wasn't far off at all. And 7:1 is still a landslide of opposition.

Here's how I tallied them up:

Sounds Wrong: (21) Lithium777, Finrandiras, d3sperad0, Galahadur, Cherep, Cubi, lwk1138, Lothran, harkamsu, Daynab, CWood, Tamiya, Aliendha, ZombieJesus, ScrappyTheGreat, Tinluen, anwar, Feybobiam, drexele, Hirandiel, Bastiat1

I'm Excited: (3) SoccerMike, SaintBass, cold_realms

Wait and See: (6) Yosoff, NameAlreadyTaken, Murtallica, Lycaunoss, Macroscian, FyreBrand.


@ZC: I actually believe most of those in all three categories I tried to shove them in are actually willing to wait and see to some extent, but we're a somewhat battered and bruised lot from all the sharp turns the Turbine bus has made in the past with this (and other) classes, and so we're a bit skittish. With some really nice suggestions (and a few crackpot ideas) in the thread of ways we REALLY think you could improve the class, there's definitely room to do something here. Just hoping it does not include anything to do with shifting the class within melee range of the enemy, even if just in one of our 3 trait lines. Best to you!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend

first... everyone complains about how our melee skills aren't worth spit... and complain about how our DPS suffers in melee range of an opponent... THEN complains when ZC tells us that melee is going to be buffed!

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I don't think that many people complain that our melee skills are weak (in terms of DPS value). People point it out, noting that you're better off using bow skills even at melee range, but I think it's much more often a statement of fact, than a complaint. I have no problem w/ the fact that our melee skills are only good for their buffs or debuffs.

And to one of your later points, it's possible that we could get a boost to melee without our ranged options suffering, but you have to admit there's plenty of precedence for the +1 here, -1 (or even -2) there style of "buffing".

That said, despite the fact that I posted my suspicion that the OP may have been a tardy April Fools joke, I don't see much point in complaining or worrying about possible upcoming changes till we actually know what those changes are going to be. We've got 7 pages of - mostly - people freaking out about the vaguest of specs for possible upcoming changes. I think there's several other people that need to follow the Baconairre's lead and count to 10 and calm down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lothran

Sounds Wrong
I'm Excited
Wait and See

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With the mild way you stated it, I'd put myself in group 1, tho with a strong leaning toward group 3.

EDIT: Put me down as 'dubious' in Halvr's list.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lothran

Wow, SaintBass, then you missed it badly, heh.

*stuff*

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Depends on how you look at it, I guess.

For example: How many of those would qualify as actual opposition? For myself, I think making any change is an asinine idea at this point (Turbine has enough class-balance issues without completely overhauling classes once every three months -and- "If it ain't broke, don't fix it") and I think it's going to cause a huge stink on the forums (ZOMG UR TAKEING MY DAMIGE!!!1~!@!#~@~!@), but I'd hardly say I'm opposed to the change itself.

Went through and made my own list, in four categories. Same as you, I skipped duplicates (I did try to consider all a person's posts rather than just one) and facetious posts (my own and the dual-wielding-dwarf-runekeepers sub-conversation, for example). Here's how I broke it down:

Interested
NAT
SoccerMike
SB
cold_realms
FyreBrand

Neutral
Yosoff
Big_Scooter
Murtallica
D3-Rook
drexle
Lycaunoss

Dubious
Lithium777
Finrandiras
Cherep
lwk1138
Lothran
Tamiya
Aliendha
ZombieJesus
Ozthorn
ScrappyTheGreat
anwar

Opposed
d3sperad0
Galahadur
Cubi
harkamsu
Daynab
Tinluen
Feybobiam
Hirandiel
bastiat1

That's 9:22 that are actually opposed to the changes, or roughly 1:7. Even if you count the ones that are dubious as being opposed, it'd still only be 20:11, or 2:1. That's a far cry from 19:1.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lothran

Wow, SaintBass, then you missed it badly, heh.

{SNIP}

Yes, yes, I know that 21:3 reduces to 7:1 which is very different from 19:1, but it's still 21 people saying 'yuck' while very few are saying 'awesome'. Bastiat's _sense_ wasn't far off at all. And 7:1 is still a landslide of opposition.

Here's how I tallied them up:

Sounds Wrong: (21) Lithium777, Finrandiras, d3sperad0, Galahadur, Cherep, Cubi, lwk1138, Lothran, harkamsu, Daynab, CWood, Tamiya, Aliendha, ZombieJesus, ScrappyTheGreat, Tinluen, anwar, Feybobiam, drexele, Hirandiel, Bastiat1

I'm Excited: (3) SoccerMike, SaintBass, cold_realms

Wait and See: (6) Yosoff, NameAlreadyTaken, Murtallica, Lycaunoss, Macroscian, FyreBrand.


@ZC: I actually believe most of those in all three categories I tried to shove them in are actually willing to wait and see to some extent, but we're a somewhat battered and bruised lot from all the sharp turns the Turbine bus has made in the past with this (and other) classes, and so we're a bit skittish. With some really nice suggestions (and a few crackpot ideas) in the thread of ways we REALLY think you could improve the class, there's definitely room to do something here. Just hoping it does not include anything to do with shifting the class within melee range of the enemy, even if just in one of our 3 trait lines. Best to you!

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That was my point. I don't disagree that there is opposition or even assert that its unfounded, but it doesn't do anyone any favors to misrepresent things... like a few non-hunters saying that "rifle is fine" (link NSFW-Language). I am excited to see what is in store, but that does not mean that I will support it. I was actually endorsing a much more "wait and see" approach... and my excitement mostly stems from the class getting some consistent Dev attention.