Orion has started previewing the updates to the Champion class.. and I would REALLY love to hear the same sort of initial "here's what we're thinking and our philosophy" for Wa(r)den updates. Please Orion? With cookys?
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Orion has started previewing the updates to the Champion class.. and I would REALLY love to hear the same sort of initial "here's what we're thinking and our philosophy" for Wa(r)den updates. Please Orion? With cookys?
agreed, I'm hoping for something similar for our stances that will help whatever they decide are our actual roles. Primary is tanking, but secondary is what? Especially when you look at some of our armor set bonus rewards it can be a tad confusing.
Warden's are being removed from the game with Isengard.
Seriously though I'm looking forward to it as well, and all the other classes.
WTB:
-New, decent shield, preferably instance drop
-Better yellow line
-More definition on specific roles
-Less useless legacies
Even the hunters are getting a third update before we get one.
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?&postid=5371395 #post5371395
Seems the wardens and guards in LoTRO are the last to get picked again. /sigh
quick! flood Turbine headquarters with cookies for Orion!
on a more serious note though, I have confidence in Orion, so far things that I know he's been in charge of have turned out nicely, I'm happy Orion is handling Wardens, unlike that shifty Graalx ;-)
wow, so hunters are getting 2 updates before some classes get one? win.Quote:
Originally Posted by geoboy
Maybe our updates are so stupendously large that they've been working on them for YEARS and are expecting to finish just in time for Isengard (yeah right). However, part of me thinks that they have to do them last for threat balancing issues, which means that as long as other classes are getting updates, we are constantly out of sync, and will play catch-up at the end of each and every long, long cycle (which totally sucks).Quote:
Originally Posted by geoboy
It's also possible that balancing threat is very tedious, and the devs just procrastinate, I guess.
well, 3 if you want to be specific, they did get those extra few skills way back with the F2P launch or with the Yule festival.Quote:
Originally Posted by striverg
Wait a minute... Theyre getting rid of the wardens? What happens to the people that payed for them? And why are they getting rid of them?
*insert Picard facepalm here*Quote:
Originally Posted by Paestylandir
He was joking....
That link is dead. Still, if this is true, *sigh*. I guess DPS and support classes are easy, and tanks are hard? It shouldn't be that hard to balance. Make us hard to get rid of and annoying. If you need a model, just look at any of the complaint threads on these boards.Quote:
Originally Posted by geoboy
I have to hope something along these lines. It must be rather hard to come up with new gambits and threat mechanics that do not push the Warden over the brink of Overpowered, or without making us completely useless. As the primary generators of real threat I really hope that they thoroughly test any new Warden gambits/mechanics before it hits bullroarer, much less live.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morcanden
And please, give us some real tanking legacies worth using.
I was thinking about it yesterday and it comes to me that some of these updates have more to do with RoI and what's going to happen to classes going forward from 65 to 75, it just seems really unlikely to me that Minstrels, Burgs, LMs, Hunters, RKs and Captains are getting another revamp so soon after their recent updates. I forsee an update for Chumps, Wardens and Guards for update 4 and more work for all classes for RoI.
Insert appropriate caveats (we only have very vague hints from Orion, and the details will matter), but I find the Orion's preview of Champion changes a bit disconcerting.
It sounds like Fervour is possibly getting a small damage buff, no additional penalties, and (apparently) a fundamental change (i.e. decrease) to its threat dynamics. So fervour Champs would seem to be getting better at their primary role. All well and good, although Champs are already one of the strongest classes in the game.
The eyebrow-raising part is that Champ tanking and Glory (their secondary role) are apparently getting a significant buff. Not just a buff in capability, but also (and perhaps just as important) a new play-style such that Champs will actually want to do it. They will tank with a 2H weapon, (according to Orion) be able to deal massive damage while doing so, and have added survival capabilities. They already have Rising Ire, the most powerful threat skill in the game.
We don't know the details of course, but it seems clear from Orion's blog that Champs will remain top-tier DPS in their primary role (as they should), while becoming significantly better and higher-DPS tanks in their secondary role as well.
Meanwhile, Wardens have no secondary role worth mentioning, and a number of weaknesses as tanks vis-a-vis Guardians (who will also, presumably, be getting some love in the update).
Not to be alarmist (yet), but I don't think we need even more competition in our primary (and only) role.
Ah, what the heck. Let's be alarmist:
Guardian tanks (primary role): Ultimate survivability, superior threat skills, average damage
Champ tanks (secondary role): "Viable" survivability, superior threat skills, ultimate damage
Warden tanks (only role): Average survivability, mediocre threat skills, mediocre damage?
someone had to post it.Quote:
Originally Posted by LagunaD
Well, nerfing Fervour threat is good, since Fervour doesn't make you squishy enough to merit being afraid of pulling aggro anyway. And I wouldn't mind Glory being made a proper tanking stance - but it needs to require heavy Blue-line investment, which probably means an overhaul of the Legendary and significant other changes (especially if, as Orion has said, it's going to be a shield-less tanking line - bye, Heavy Shield Use and At the Ready).
Yes... all I want is a clear (and useful in a group/raid setting) secondary role.
Seconded!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie08
Rapacious
PS I wouldn't mind a Javelin threat skill or a non-gambit interupt either, but I will settle for the above.
I dunno that we'll ever get a raid-viable secondary role, and I don't know that this is a bad thing. Minstrels have no raid-viable secondary role, nor do LMs. I don't think most groups would consider GRD DPS raid-viable, either, unless it's an exceptionally well-geared Guard. Some other classes have no really clear primary role (Captains, Burgs) and thus don't really have a straight secondary role that's viable in a raid, either. What we need, though, is to be viable as DPS *and* tanks in 6-mans, and competitive with Guardians in raids as tanks.
minstrel secondary: buffs (20% ballad of war=win)Quote:
Originally Posted by ANewMachine
lore-master: dps (it's meh, but it helps to have that kind of aoe tied to a class with debuffs)
guards: open up more FMs while going dps for the most part
captain primary: buffs (was it really that hard to see?)
burg primary: debuffs/cc (secondary is dps)
I'm curious as to why you think a class in the game should just "deal with" not being the best at something in raids.
Well, I guess I meant more an "off-role" that's viable. Yes, Minnies have buffs, but you bring them as healers. You don't bring a Minstrel in place of a Cappy for buffs. That 20% melee damage will probably be outweighed by the Captain's +10% all damage, if you bring RK or Hunter DPS instead of just stacking Champs. A min's off-role is burst DPS, but that's not useful in a raid. You're right about Captains having buffs as a primary role, but I disagree re: Burgs, because Burgs have worse CC and worse debuffs than LMs - compare Disable with Fire-Lore, and the only thing Disable wins on in CD, which it needs since it's one-target. They're better as force-multipliers, but even there a single Burg will get get beaten by a Captain.
LOTRO isn't really balanced around having one class be the "best" at something, but rather around multi-role classes that can fill in for each other. Just look at their push to give every class an interrupt skill for evidence of this. Really the only classes that are the "best" at something are Guardians as tanks, Cappies for buffs, and Champs as AoE DPS. LM CC is rivaled by a properly-traited Hunter. Hunters and RKs are rivaled for ST DPS by each other and Champs. Even a Guardian is only a clearly better than than the Warden because of fight mechanics and an aggro-recovery tool.
Those arnt secondary roles. Minstrels can heal and buff at the same time, i say "can" but i really should say Must/Should/Will.Quote:
Originally Posted by striverg
Loremaster have marginal dps but can trait for decent aoe damage. (trait). i.e. secondary role.
Guards- thats not a secondary role, its just part of their main one. Secondary role would be full dps and it's not viable the way i see it.
Burg - they dps and debuff at the same time, again not a secondary role.
Many classes do not have a viable/useful full secondary role. By the logic posted above, wardens secondary role would be an aoe heal, or a corruption spammer or a interrupter; all of which a warden is capable of doing (maybe not to their full capacity) while tanking.
The only roles i see being done in a fellowship/raid are
Debuffer
Dps
Tank
Heal
Buffer
All classes have at least 2 of those built into their class. A full secondary role for a minstrel for example would be a full sustainable (comparable) Dps/buffer class rather than a Heal/buffer.
Burgs already have Debuffer/Dps. They also can tank well enough to be considered as an off tank, the class is fully developed. Minstrels arnt only healing, they are continuously buffing the fellowship. tanks are tanking, adding in a marginal amount of dps but champ/guard/(even warden) can retrait to do something more effective if its tank or dpsing.
However, i would never call guard dps a viable secondary role, its not even close to what their melee counterparts can put up (champions). Dps is all about comparison. Wardens can trait for dps but again, they do not do well against their counterparts (hunter/champion). The same goes for hunter/champion. A hunter can trait to be marginally good at CC, not as effective as an lm or burg but the job can be done. Champion can already tank in fervor but if they want to trait tanking, their morale/defenses are nearing the guards but still not there, i.e. not a viable secondary role. They might as well tough it out in fervor.
I could go on to explain different classes but i believe the point is clear enough. Each class could be given a skill that would make them sort of a secondary role but in the end, if you want dps you bring a dps class etc. Three main things in a fellowship are Healing, Tanking, and Dpsing. The support classes, burg/lm/captain bring a mixture of all three of those components along with some debuff/buffing mechanics but are more effective when you have multiple support classes. To give someone a full viable, completely equal secondary role would be taking away the dps/heal/tank's role in the fellowship. Each class has parts of each role built in but they do 1 the best.
(i do see your point as to having 2 tanks, one cannot be the best and i believe guardian>warden for many reasons. I understand the thread isnt about that but when raids only need 1 tank, then it becomes a problem. The other roles deal with it, debuffing, healing, dps but in those positions you will have multiple classes in raid situations so what class is better at their specific role doesnt matter much but, you will usually just have 1 tank unless the fight requires(easier) with 2 tanks. If you have 2 tanks, then i either assume you "need" off tanking or need or are dealing with agro switching, wardens do not have the viable skills to take agro immediately so that is another problem the class faces.)
Needless to say, i am wondering myself about the future of the warden class.
Loremasters do not need a secondary role because they have no competition for any of their primary roles. They are the only class any of the following: wound/disease curing, ranged/tactical damage debuffs, crit debuffs, heavy power management, and multi-target CC (until Burgs get the OD set). All this warrants them a place in groups/raids almost regardless of the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by ANewMachine
Minstrels do not need a secondary role since they have a secure position in their primary. The only class with competitive healing capabilities are Runekeepers who provide far less damage while healing. Regardless, the classes work well together, and most raids contain at least one Minstrel.
Compare those to the Warden whose viability as a tank has been hotly debated since their launch. While the consensus is that Wardens are capable of tanking anything in the game, most groups (in my experience) would prefer a Guardian. Without a secondary role, there is much less incentive to invite a Warden than the other classes without one.
I understood you until here. What you're saying here is that champ is not viable as a tank because he can't tank as well or better than a guard? that sounds more like something that would be a main roll not a secondary.Quote:
Originally Posted by esdumby
But based on the other stuff you said, a class should either be the best at their roll or have something else unique they can do while performing their primary function. I don't see warden having either really, at least not efficiently(e.g. it's not possible to spam corruption removal/interrupts AND be able to hold aggro AND heal the group. meaning it's impossible for us to perform all of our possible functions at once unlike a minstrel that can pretty much buff and heal without missing a beat[no pun intended])
Rain of Thorns? Confound?Quote:
Originally Posted by jeedai
Well, RKs are certainly competitive healers in some fights, given their vastly superior power efficiency. They're secure in the position, but they're both viable healers. (Minstrels bring far better other tools, like rezzes and buffs, but that's another story)Quote:
Originally Posted by jeedai
This, in conjunction with your comments about the Minstrel, just emphasizes that we need to buff the Warden as a tank, not that Wardens need a non-tank role in a raid.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeedai
ETA: Let me put it this way: can you really see Spear Traited Wardens in Recklessness doing competitive single-target DPS to, say, a Champ or Hunter? Because that's the other role we'll get, because it doesn't take a total rework of the class.
Words can not express how awesome that would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by ANewMachine
I don't know if i like this...i'm happy to see that Graalx2 isnt responsible for the Warden anymore...but i'm not sure that i like the "new" one if i take a look at the Champion-preview...
As a champion I was extremely impressed with what info was provided. Orion grasp what is was to play a champion and focused on making make positive changes rather than nerf it again. He buffed damage and lowered threat in fervour, made ardour a useful stance, and changed the way it tanks to a method more in line with the champion class than the guardian one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecth
I think that if we are to look at these changes and the changes that were made to minnis we will probably get a lot of the things we asked for rather than more useless junk (Never Surrender). It was Graalx2 who said "don't die" and gave us NS. Maybe Orion will actually listen to the community and give the class stuff that it needs.
First, a word about the LM: they have in fact two primary roles, CC and debuffing- for a good reason, because many group encounters and even some trash is completely CC immune. Neither burgs nor Hunters can completely replace them (cooldowns or a massive dps reduction). Their second role is power management or burst AOE if they trait for it.
Second, the Warden class is hard to balance without breaking the core elements (ie zero cooldown skills). The class suffers from design flaws that cant be fixed with tweaking some numbers or buffs, and an overhaul of traitlines or skill mechanics apparently wasn't possible for Graalx2 in the timeframe he was given.
We can only hope Orion really takes his time and addresses the fundamental problems instead of altering some numbers. My wishlist would be:
- give Wardens similar aggro management capabilities without giving them the same skills Guardians have
- flesh out their role as evasion tank and give them some room for emergencies
- give them a meaningful secondary role that is not mediocre melee dps (like useful ranged burst dps with added combo mechanics tied to the spear line)
- a viable aggro recovery not linked to death and without crippling penalties (rework NS and DC)
- masteries as trainable regular skills ( from 25-50 every 5 levels)
- overhaul of fist - my proposal was AoE DoTs, or anything worth traiting
- a reduction in our god-like soloing capabilities if needed for balance.
Ttis will be a lot of work, but Wardens deserve to be in the same shape as the other classes - the class exists since Moria, so please finish it with the same amount of thinking and enthusiasm that went into the Minstrel and LM revisions.
According to the Champion update post, Champs are going to be the "true evasion tanks" of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by grinko.at
I agree, warden needs it's ability to solo everything in the game drastically lowered so that it can tank slightly better in groups :)
Don't get me wrong, I feel like we're excellent tanks already, I just don't feel we bring anything extra to the table in raid settings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starrywisdom
I still don't get this "Wardens are evasion tanks" approach. we're not, we do nothing with avoidances, we are regen tanks, Guards (and possibly Chumps now) are the evasion tank.
I think it's a reaction to the fact that we wear medium armor. Medium armor = can't take a hit = must just avoid hits!Quote:
Originally Posted by lf2536
IMO, more than any other class in the game the warden deserves a real overhaul, every other single class has had a major overhaul except this one. Orion's champ thread really does further salt the warden's wounds. The champs already are an incredibly strong group class, so why this rush to "fix", them when wardens really need soooo much more attention? From both a champ and a warden perspective, I don't much like some of the changes coming to champs. Reading about the champ glory buffs certainly doesn't sound good for wardens, or guards for that matter.
Point blank, the developers of this game have all but ignored this class for far too long. All the devs have given are 2 big nerfs, while all other classes have gotten major buffs. Sometimes I think turbine hates that they ever made this class.
I have to admit i also worry a bit about champs getting any kind of tanking buff. I mean they are already desirable in groups as DPS, and there are a quite a lot of them. As a warden i kind of depend on groups looking for a tank ... If i have to not only compete with guardians but also champs ...
I can easily see a situation where Champs would be considered superior tanks to us even if our total avoidiance+mitigation was a bit higher then theirs, they are just more straightforward and flexible. Not to mention that they are excellent in a offtank role in tandem with a guardian, something where we struggle a wee bit at times.
Lets just say i don't see much room in this game for a thirdclass tank.
I love the warden class, I do, but I've often felt the same sentiment. With the new champ "tank" modes, we'll be seeing a lot less reasons for people to roll Wardens unless Turbine devs choose to do a few things, such as:Quote:
Originally Posted by horus418
1) Increasing AoE threat and/or damage - if I have to try to pull aggro from another "shing-shing" champ with war-cry, exultation, or conviction, I think I might punch someone. And with the new changes mentioned so far, I just feel like throwing my hands up.
2) A worthwhile force taunt or aggro copy - if LOTRO raids are going to include more of the same stupid aggro swapping mechanics, this has to happen if Wardens are intended to be generally raid-viable. If they're only intended to be raid-viable on a player-by-player basis, then whatevs.
3) More opportunities for increasing or decreasing perceived threat - see above reason.
4) Self-buffs that don't actually lower our effectiveness (like adroit maneuver measurably reduces DPS)
5) A fist line that serves a purpose - currently I would describe the fist line as 'lacking identity'. Is it CC? Is it threat?
6) Less useless skills and gambits - PS, SoV, NS, IF, Shield Up (after SM is earned), all junk. I'm sure I missed some, too.
7) Masteries shouldn't have to be slotted. Seriously. I know this creates work for devs in replacing the deeds for them with new skill deeds, but masteries make this class bearable.
8) A secondary role - let us trait for raid-viable (group) healing, debuffing, crowd-control, or buffing if you won't let us trait for raid-viable DPS.
9) More fun and unique stuff. I love ambushing (though I hate the limitations of careful step), I enjoy the gambit system (when lag or +attack duration debuffs don't screw me up), and morale surfing can be enjoyable for attempting challenging content solo (though I haven't soloed meaningfully in forever). Even forced march has its moments in areas that I've out-leveled or cleared (well, okay, I basically use it to race guards... and hunter buff is better and makes ours non-unique... but it's part of our identity to have horrible drawbacks for anything resembling an existing skill, right?).
These are just options though. I'd like to see a combination of a few of them, not all of them together.
The warden needs some fixes, some help in raid mechanics and the like, yes, but a "real overhaul"? I agree that the champ love of late (and yet more hunter changes) is annoying when we have heard nothing about warden updates and the past few have been insulting to people who play the class. But every other class in this game is "eh" to me besides the warden. I love the survivability in soloing (btw champs have now soloed stoneheight tier 1--does anyone know if wardens have been able to yet?), and I also love the satisfaction of tanking raids that are already difficult but made more so by doing them on a warden. Swaping aggro on durin's bane with another guard is difficult--but fun as a result. Simply force taunt threat matching makes tanking boring to me. This game is already quite easy, and I would hate 1) warden tanking to become as easy as or more easy than guard tanking, and 2) the warden to be given such a major overhaul that the class plays differently post-update I hope the devs build on what is good and keep us best at what we are best at.Quote:
Originally Posted by horus418
As a guard, I do likewise feel very threatened by the proposed adjustment to champs....have my moments getting frustrated here (this forum), listening to endless "give us [this or that] guard tool..," but if you have noticed I always revert to saying we tanks need to join forces and support one another, because it is the champs that REALLY are the enemy to us both.Quote:
Originally Posted by horus418
We need to make noise on this before it is too late, imo.
Here is a post I made in the champ forum on topic, inclusive of a quote I replied to there:
I agree with this 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingtheo
I see the proposed change as ONLY pleasing those with mindsets and who feel strongly already that "champs are more efficient and more optimal"...those who intrinsically will care little for class balance or whether the designated "main tanks" are then left in the dust while champs carry forth as being as good at AoE and single target dps as ever -- PLUS then will also supplant via their secondary tanking role those who are SUPPOSED to be tanking as a primary.
This change will likely also do damage to those who already DO take advantage of what a champ can do with a shield now...approaching warden levels in soloability...likely limiting the avoidance and mitigation builds and soloing survivability for things that can't just be dps'd down. There are things that "even" a guard must be tank traited and max self-healing to kill, that just can't be beaten through and down in OP stance -- and I suspect this analysis would apply to the "new" glory champs.
Either the shieldless glory tank would be "weak" -- and since this proposal seems to cater to "champs are uber" thinking...I doubt this will be intended...or it would have to be envisioned that they will achieve some unwarranted levels of defensive buff, that will consequently jolt them way past the capabilities of guards and wards (who can't dual wield and must use shields to achieve these defensive abilities).
Moreover...if as an alternate to gaining "magical" crit defense and avoidances, etc., from the imagined ethers of traits absent shields, etc., champs could end up with some kind "healing factor" applied...think this was vaguely alluded to as well...this would then be encroaching equally improperly onto warden territory.
The only actually "reasonable" potential for this meandering shieldless glory tank proposition I can see (to other tanking classes) ...would then be very unfair to the current champs who enjoy shields and what already is great champ survivability: would be that a glory champ be greatly improved for holding aggro, but intentionally become significantly LESS defensive than they are at present. Hold before you flame...I will explain:
Have a threat over time reduction to fervour champs...allow them to still dangerously (to themselves) pull aggro initially and with incoming healing yet nerfed for stance (or even more nerfed) potentially kill themselves fast....but as to the ability to continuously "tank" by fervour stance: apply then a ramping up of threat debuff or some such. This would end fervour tanking and encourage (virtually require) the claimed goal of having champs USE glory stance when MEANT to tank. Others have posited this and I think I also may have "read between the lines" into some of what Orion blogged, that he may be considering that fervour aggro would thus be somehow limited or reduced despite be initially "noticed."
In my estimation, to avoid the other prospect of the glory champ becoming "too uber", it would have to intentionally KEEP the lowered crit defense and armor reduction, necessitated and implied in dropping a shield (no magical stance buffing). In addition to gaining some signifcant aggro boosts via new skills or stance passives...glory stance, without the healing nerf of fervour, becomes far more sustainable and more easily healed, thus prefered for tanking 6-mans and as an off tank of adds, etc. (both for aggro and for healing without as much loss of dps). Capable OFF-TANKS, but still requiring more healing even in glory than would wardens and guards, due to the less defenses...this, so that wardens and guards are still preferred for endgame raids until things are on farm, etc.
That, imo, is the very definition and a properly encouraged use of glory stance for what has only ever been a secondary role and NON-MAIN tanking use of champ -- which is what a champ is, was and always should be. Viable...but NOT optimal as a tank.
I fully expect people will NOT accept being less than "optimal," even in a secondary roll...but please advise as to what guards and wardens would then be optimal for...behind champs in dps in our secondary roles...and at serious jeopardy in main tanking unless champ tanks with their greater dps are then made WEAKER defensively, by intention.
Anything OTHER than this -- or preferable to ALL of us imo (guards, wards and current shield-using champs)...just some milder tweaks to the current tanking status quo -- is going to break tanking. Champs are better at single target dps...better at AoE dps...and if still rocking high dps, double wielding and matching crit defense, armor and potentially morale (people asking for 5 per point of vit in this thread, mind you) while in glory...why will anyone play a guard ??? Is this desired by the devs,and not just champ fanboi's,,,really??...w'tf!
I already KNOW this will not be satisfactory to the 'excited' champs already positing requisite major crit defense and armor buffs magically working into the "new" glory stance without shields, but people need to get over the knee-jerk excitement of having more dps and double wielding and/or 2hnding glory with increased dps and potentially defenses, and look at the bigger picture. People need to recognize the huge balancing issues, and how this will be a monumental step backward to a time and place that tanking WAS truly broken...once you push past the simplistic "fun" and surface appeal, and give a broader and more critical analysis.
This is a big mistake Orion...and I urge a correction and "doh" palm to the skull moment to strike you sooner rather than later, before people inexorably get worked up over a BAD prospect, that diverging from it later will be that much more difficult.
Fun thought conceptually...rife with too many potentially game breaking (as far as tanking anyway) and terrible ramifications for implementation.
There are points in here that I agree with, and some I disagree with. Overall, an important message that is overlooked in this analysis is that Orion is a self-proclaimed "buffer" - he prefers not to nerf. As a result, I want to believe that all classes can expect similar treatment - we may see a new kind of balance afterward, but at least it will be balance. I think we should wait until he has at least posted his ideas for warden/guard changes before sounding a full alert on the champ changes, although I agree that we should all pay close attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
Yes, I'd like a "real overhaul", but nowhere do I say I want force taunts or turning wardens in to ezmode. I don't give a hoot about soloing a bunch of fellow and small fellow junk, so I'm actually looking for a big solo nerf, this isn't a solo game. As it stands we have a whole trait line that is pretty near useless and an entire skill set (yellow), that is almost the same, except for 3-4 gambits. Think about how many gambits are actually useful compared to the ones you only use when you make a mistake... it's rather sad. As for swapping aggro with a guard, I don't find anything difficult about it, but we rely on the guard to be able to do it, not cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by duamarth
I don't want the class to play completely different either but something needs to be done, we can't have everything locked behind gambits. We need a couple of oh **** skills for raids, as it stands we have 0, spending who knows how many seconds building up HoTs that make little to no difference when a boss is slamming you HARD, doesn't help. The warden is most vulnerable when somebody else makes a mistake and gets killed, all you can do is watch your health drop while the other person gets rez'd and hope you "don't die". Then, if you do die, you pop a skill that cripples you and doesn't work anyway...
You say this but yet you state that you got peeved that the warden class was ever created to begin with. Well, we are here and here to stay. We have to face facts, no matter how much you don't like the idea wardens are going to need something similar to "this or that guard tool". What you have to realize is that these tools you speak of just aren't guard tools only, champs have a few OS sills and aggro tools, burgs have touch and go. Why do you feel a guardian deserves pledge for those moments while wardens only get prayers? If the devs gave wardens touch and go, is that OK with you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
People seem to like this Orion guy, so I'll wait and see what is coming our way. The part that I don't understand is that Orion is moving in the complete opposite direction of where this tanking business needs to go. Seriously Orion, you really need to communicate with us wardens, because you seem to actually be going out of your way to make us obsolete. If you've got real plans for us, we need you to toss us even the tiniest of info, we deserve at least that.
As an outsider here is my take on the warden:
1. You are solo-pros. I've watched wardens solo some ridiculous mobs.
2. You are decent off tanks, but so are guardians and champs, both with more DPS.
3. I've watched a warden tank the final boss (Gortheron) in OD t2 CM, but our healers hated how much more damage the warden took than a guardian.
4. Warden's DPS is limited to always having to equip a shield (no 2h = no big DPS)
My suggestions are:
1. Decrease warden's ability to solo everything. Might not be desired by some people
2. Provide wardens with more critical defenses, or a way to slot more mitigations.
3. Develop a true DPS line with big power costs, but more DPS either through +damage or ability to slot a 2-hander, maybe a 2-Hand Warden's Spear. I can just see a gnarly warden with this massive 2-h spear raging around lol.
Seriously the bottom line is this: Wardens are not a highly desired class by end-game raiding kins. There is a problem with the class being able to do EVERYTHING, but having no 100% main role where they outshine everyone else. Yes, wardens are tank-ish types, but guardians are dominant in many cases. Something needs fixed to get wardens back in the fray, whether its DPS, better tankability, or something else.
To those worried or whining about the updates coming for Champions my suggestion would be, don't. Worry about whether you yourself can actually do your job and fulfill your role(s) properly, not whether some other class is being improved. Wardens are already passed over 99% of the time for Guardians, who are also much more numerous, so changing the way Champ tanking works isn't going to have any significant effect. Are you really that concerned with trying to hold onto the few pity spots Wardens currently get? Don't be the guy who just tries to drag everyone else down to his level out of spite.
Instead of focusing on Champ changes and complaining that they're going to take the few little spots you currently have in groups, focus on getting your own class buffed properly so that you'll be more desirable than they are for main tanking and so that you can actually, legitimately compete with Guardians for main tanking and have a viable secondary role to make yourself more wanted in groups. Right now Wardens have serious issues with grouping, maybe some of that is perception but as they say, perception is reality, so let's get both changed so that groups will actually desire to have a Warden, or at least think of Wardens and Guardians as equally viable options.
This is an awesome point. I've thought this myself. +RepQuote:
Originally Posted by Morcanden
Without masteries, I think it's safe to say that Wardens wouldn't even be able to perform effectively in challenging endgame content. Why do we have to burn class slots for these?
And, in general, there is a total lack of imagination with our class traits anyway. You see constant repeats of things like more HoT pulses, DoT pulses and +Damage in the traits themselves and the line bonuses across the board. While I like the extra +pulse and damage love, how hard was it to think of those things?
Gambit combat is one of the most fantastic and unique things in LOTRO. It's just a very fun game within a game that keeps me playing my Warden. I also love the synergy of range and tanking so there certainly is a lot that was done right with the class. Wardens just need some legit love under the hood.
I love the gambit system, it makes the Warden so unique and fun to play :D
And I agree, if anything needs to be fixed its the damned class traits! I switch between running shield line to capstone, to spear, to a combo of all three (for the +10% threat)....and its amazing how many useless traits we have. And incredibly aggravating that we have to waste 3 on masteries.
One of our traits increases the default gambit damage! Default gambit? Who uses that? Ever? Only time that ever happens is if I make a mistake and accidentally punch the gambit button. lol.
I laughed pretty hard, then realized how true this is. Sure, I love soloing, but can that really be considered a primary role? Fine. I can live with that. I'm the king of soloing.Quote:
Originally Posted by LagunaD
But what if I want to group? How can a warden be expected to group when every other class has easily defined superior primary AND secondary roles? Sure, I enjoy soloing, and I'd like to keep some of that potential. But not at the cost of being completely useless otherwise... I don't care what our primary role is. If it's tanking, so be it. But if that's the case, it just doesn't make sense that a champion's secondary role can be just as effective as our primary. Never mind the fact that a champ's primary role still allows them to be the god of AoE DPS.
Im getting sick of seeing our solo ability mentioned like it somehow outbalances lacking group play, what can i buy myself for this awesome soloability? Can i level faster than others? No. Can i get good gear with it? No. Maybe i can atleast do harder skirmishes to get more marks/h? Not really. What exactly does this awesome soloability give me except for bragging rights and the ability to waste my time? How can something as stupid as that even begin to balance lacking desirability in a group? How about we nerf the debuffs, CC and Power transfers of LMs, because they are awesome solo too(not serious, LM is my second faviorite char, don't touch it). Atleast champions and RKs get tangible benefits in soloplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr
But yeah anyway, i think its a good idea that the same guy that reworks Champs is also doing Wardens and(hopefully) Guardians. Pretty sure he will do some graphs and other stuff and try to keep/make things more or less fair between the three.
Personally i think Wardens should be threat machines but without actually being able to finely control our threat, i.e. no ability to drop threat, no force taunts or anything. Just raw threat that can easily be stacked up with no emergency buttons, slightly lower mitigation/avoidiance than guards against single mobs but pulling ahead in multi mob situation through morale leeches.
Maybe a Gambit that adds some form of mitigation per mob in range or something similar(worse with one mob than guard, equal with too, better with 3, maybe capping at 5), maybe even as a function of the new yellow raiding lines capstone, as a buff to EoB or something.
If you aren't doing this already, you should rework your rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketeer8015
So how long does it take you to get threat back after dieing(and don't say "don't die", its outside my control 90% of the time), or when taking over a target that has been offtanked by someone else for a while? How about taking over a target noone in your group has had much thread on? If you compare our "raw" threat to the function of force taunts guardians have we are pitiful, if you compare our threat leeches to a champs rising ire its laughable even though its single target.Quote:
Originally Posted by geoboy
Threat leeches need to have +initial threat and also transfer %threat just like rising ire. We give up so much things like mitigation/emergency skills/force taunts/easy mechanics(press one button done) etc and for what? Being able to deal 20% more threat/s than a guardian when spamming one gambit? Are guardians loosing aggro while tanking without that or what?
Is it to much asked that with all the drawbacks we have we atleast don't have to worry about someone
pulling aggro form us if we try to work our only saving grace, our selfheals, into our rotations? And yes i know there are a certain few situations where a Warden can shine, though its easy to forget that guardian can shine in all those other situations.
I mean if the concept of a tank actually having aggro is so OP that its not meant to be i just don't know what to say...
Well, that's not aggro gen, that's aggro management, isn't it? You want to generate more in 10s than others do in 5 minutes? You say you don't want threat tools, just gen, but this kind of threat gen would let a tank build threat for half a minute and then go afk.
If you want to recover from a death , we need threat tools, not just generation. I don't see a way around it.
Please don't touch warden shield line. We've got an entire trait line just sitting there, doing absolutely nothing(fist). Even amongst the bad, terrible, horrible wardens i've seen, none of them go fist line. Fix warden raid tanking with the fist line. Don't touch my shield line.Quote:
1. Decrease warden's ability to solo everything. Might not be desired by some people
2. Provide wardens with more critical defenses, or a way to slot more mitigations.
Give us an engage with the capstone and mits/crit defences with the traits/set bonuses or something. I dunno, but there is no need to nerf warden's awesomeness solo/3man/6man just for raid performance, when we have an entire trait line we could devote to it.
Buff spear line, but we already have giant power costs. I could see a somewhat increase in power costs, but nothing huge.Quote:
3. Develop a true DPS line with big power costs, but more DPS either through +damage or ability to slot a 2-hander, maybe a 2-Hand Warden's Spear. I can just see a gnarly warden with this massive 2-h spear raging around lol.
How would making our leeches % based instead of fixed value lead to what you describe? And why does that reservation not apply to champs? And why do you feel the need to make up numbers like "10 sec" of "5 min" as if i mentioned them?Quote:
Originally Posted by geoboy
What i say is we should have the ability to gain threat in a reasonable amount of time if we put our minds to it regardless of the situation, since it is balanced by our inability to deal with to much threat. Yeah, sure its awesome to be able to pull and hold a bunch of mobs, though what if its 1-2 mobs to much or a mob that was supposed to be offtanked way over there? We die, no way around since we have no emergency buttons.
I call it raw threat because there is no finesse to it, if there is a situation where three npcs(boss with two powerful adds or something) need to be tanked i can't just say i want the threat of that hunter from his mob, or say i want this mob to attack me for x seconds now, i won't even be able to quickly save another tank that got a unlucky stun or something with a quick buttonpress, i can only say threat! likely causing the encounter to break one way or another if not careful, which again brings skill into the discussion.
If you give us sufficient sustained threat generation for us to be able to catch up on aggro quickly and efficiently after a death or something, it will by nature make holding aggro a LOT easier than it is(and should be).
I cannot think of any situations this would be a problem for, in which it wouldn't already be a problem(hitting mobs with threat that we shouldn't be). For things like aggro swapping on bosses, guards could just engage+gt and pull it off anyway.Quote:
What i say is we should have the ability to gain threat in a reasonable amount of time if we put our minds to it regardless of the situation, since it is balanced by our inability to deal with to much threat. Yeah, sure its awesome to be able to pull and hold a bunch of mobs, though what if its 1-2 mobs to much or a mob that was supposed to be offtanked way over there? We die, no way around since we have no emergency buttons.
Aggro leeches are aggro management, not gen. You're moving it around, not making more. I'm confused as to how you propose the ability to recover aggro after death without stealing/copying/altering the threat of others. Where is the threat coming from? A huge threat skill? How do you balance that, when (as a warden), you can just spam it all you want? (please no more 1 - button wonders like never surrender, tyvm)
Wardens are in a pretty good place with our shield and spear trait lines, and I don't see a huge need to buff/nerf either.
Parsers' E-Peen demands a spear line buff.Quote:
Wardens are in a pretty good place with our shield and spear trait lines, and I don't see a huge need to buff/nerf either.
1. Leeches are not management since they are oneway +relative threat. A leech that detracts 200 threat from someone and adds 200 to you is mechanically in every way, shape and form inferior to a skill that simply adds 400 threat to you. It has the huge drawbacks of not working raidwide and requirering threat on that other player you want to leech from.Quote:
Originally Posted by geoboy
2. Stealing aggro from others is perfectly fine, im actually proposing exactly that. For example stealing 5-10% threat from each FS member would give you a nice amount of threat. If you think thats imbalanced, what do you think a champs rising ire does? And that one takes up alot less power and time in a rotation.
3. We are not in a good place. Seriously. If we are in a good place i don't want to see what the bad places look like. Please explain real slowly to me why a Captain, Champion, Minstrel, Hunter or RK needed to be made more attractive for groups while we apparently already are in a "pretty good place".
Things I've read here and there in the forums that I remember thinking were good ideas:
I like the idea of having masteries as skills, and then Make mastery class traits reduce the cooldown on each mastery.
Have Way of the Warden affected by legacies.
Rework Legacies to affect full lines including builders - ie -Power cost fist gambits also reduces any fist builder or fist mastery in addition to the gambit. Or +damage legacy affects more than one gambit. Or +threat transfers on all transfers or all threat skills.
Rework trait lines to promote different play styles.
Spear = dps but severely hinder survivability and threat (shouldn't tank in this line)
Shield = survivability - probably about right b/c dps is weak may be decrease threat (can tank in line - probably best for pugs or solo)
Fist = tanking - lots of threat - lots of defense - up incoming healing - crit/tac defense - hinder dps - and self heals (optimal tanking line)
I currently don't really use fist line and it seems to be going in the direction that spear tanking is the way to go. On my LM red = awesome dps, blue = survivability, yellow = raid build for most part I think our lines need reworked.
Never Surrender - never used probably terrible - rework
Defiant Challenge - I use wish it was a little more useful by reducing animation or start threat at the beginning of the animation and increase duration - increase power cost if spamming is an issue. Add threat transfer to it may be.
Dance of War - reduce animation or change where transfer occurs in animation
Add threat to Javelins and more Jav skills and/or add an interrupt to one of them. I love the play style of the warden and generally think they can tank well, but a few tweaks here and there could go a long ways to making others believe in the class.
Good to know...I guess engage is not threat management either until at lvl 75 guards receive the "anti-engage" skill...boy are you guys gonna be pissed when we get that!Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketeer8015
Glad to see that the self-haters still perceive being "better" than guards as the primary goal and don't yet acknowledge the true threat that may be coming down the pike from champs here. If guards are worried...by your own measure you ought to be peeing your pants.
Oysten...I do think the dev's made a bad choice to make duplicate main tank classes for such a limited role, where the content does not give us much meat to be competing over...but don't begrudge your existence at all, like your class and and have supported things to make you more viable in raids like crit defense and yet support the full overhaul of that NS abomination. Please don't look to me as an enemy at this late date as I have stood beside you so many times against those that likely just can't make the most of your class so seek to become guards. My message to wardens is that the champ horde is knocking at our (tanks) doors again...be afraid!
Unfortunate - always thought it was guards and wardens competing for MT spots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
Then you are going to have an issue with Turbines way of tanking. They believe that DPS must slow way down to allow a tank to have agro. I often have to explain to friends that we fight tooth and nail here in Lotro as tanks to maintain Agro on quick kills. They ask me why I play.....:)Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketeer8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
You notice the part that is not relative to your fellows? That skill directly modifies your position on the aggro table in a consistent way. You "manage" your aggro.Quote:
You are able to press your opponent, forcing them to slow down and concentrate on defending themselves. This skill makes you the target's most threatening opponent.
A leech might change your placement on the aggro table, or it might not, depending on how fast your fellows generate threat/how big their lead is. Your NOT managing your aggro, your simply increasing it relatively to others. Its a different mechanic for the same thing as damage or +threat skills, slowly and unpredictably moving around on the aggrotable.
And no, we won't be pissed. Champs already have that skill and its fine.
Would be kind of novel though to have a Tank with emergency skills and highest mitigation, a tank with highest damage and no power issues and a Tank where other people don't have to hold back and that can mitigate waves well. It would almost be as if there are pronounced niches for the tankclasses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artanisul
But yeah i get it, Wardens are apparently just supposed to be the Tanks you take if no Guard is around or if you want to do Barrow Downs skirmish Benny Hill style.
Also, no offense to some posters here, but i find guardians arguing against any kind of actually worthwhile tanking buffs for wardens to be a fairly amusing attempt at insulting the devs intelligence. I mean could it be, purely hypothetically speaking of course, that you have a conflict of interests here and are not that much invested in making wardens as accepted as guardians are?
This pretty much describes the nightmare of what might be made of glory champs dual wielding if this goes through as I expect. Guards and wards will both suffer.Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketeer8015
You say this yet admit yourself that even spear traited, warden dps is "middling". You want middling dps for a secondary role?Quote:
Originally Posted by geoboy
See, I don't have a problem with 3 tank classes as it opens up a variety of play for people. I tried a guard before a warden and just plain didn't care for the play style, so if it weren't for wardens I wouldn't be playing a tank class in this game. What I do have a problem with is the imbalance between guards and wards at the raid level and what looks like an imbalance in waiting with the new champ changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
You do realize that it really is going to take more than crit defense and a fixed NS to really put guardians and wardens on equal ground don't you? That doesn't mean we need pledge and engage clones but we definitely need one or two true OS skills for when the isht hits the fan.
I love my champ, I really look forward to seeing what actually changes with glory. I just don't want those changes to be so extreme that the other two tank classes get snubbed. As it stands now I feel no competition with champs on my server when it comes to tanking, no matter what people have been saying on the forums about fervour tanking this and that.
I generally don't get to MT squat anymore. Part of it is that I'm tired of the complaints that I take more damage, another part is that the mechanics of perceived threat for threat swapping are basically BS. Basically, the longer a fight goes, the harder it is to swap aggro with a guard that is wearing a high +perceived belt, regardless of whether they are smart enough to swap threat stance on/off. And all of the new OD content penalizes your raid for taking too long to swap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterion
Hell, I'm lucky they let me come along in the raids anymore. I really don't do anything that a champ couldn't do at this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by horus418
I agree that at present tanking is in a decent place compared to "where" it was in Moria...and it was champ dps commingled with adequate survivability that had "true tanking" in a very rough spot. That same combo is really what is being proposed again, when you boil the details away and look at the overall indicated direction (of which actual details we have none of anyway...but the "how" of it won't make any difference...it is the stated end result which previously was a great problem).
Some hold out hope for enormous compensatory buffs to "main tanks" ...and say this concern is too alarmist atm. Global warming is real.
Meh. I don't think we can cry wolf just yet. I think it's important that Wardens and Guards get at least a sneak peek overview of his perceived direction at this point, don't get me wrong, but I'm not ready to sound the (potentially false) alarm just because he's saying shing-shing champs should have more reasons to shing-shing in other stances than fervour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
This, for the most part. I think it's possible to make gambits that would help out with our issues, you just need to either tie a penalty to them so they can't be spammed for very long or put in a diminishing return for spamming them.Quote:
Originally Posted by horus418
For example: maybe for DC, it could be somwhat spammable (less animation and/or starting the force-taunt at the beginning of the animation). Make it so if you use it again in the next 20 seconds it has double power cost, then x4 if you use it again within 20 seconds, x6 if you use it again in 20 seconds etc. That way, you CAN spam it in an emergency, but it will cost you just about all your power to be able to force everything for that long.
Another example would be maybe a gambit that increases evade by 15% for 5-10 seconds but disarms you, silences you, makes you unable to produce additional threat or even reduces your threat over time. You can reduce your incoming damage for a short while via evasion, but you can't build more threat so you need to have the boss completely locked down in order to take this benefit. (the reduced threat thing would be great for tank-swapping/dps builds as well)
just a few ideas on how to keep the gambit system while still giving us a few skills to help us in tight spots.
(I'd like to keep this about what wardens need instead of about what is going on with champs, going to leave that to the champ thread)
I think the fact that you'll be spending your entire time spamming DC will be punishment enough :)Quote:
For example: maybe for DC, it could be somwhat spammable (less animation and/or starting the force-taunt at the beginning of the animation). Make it so if you use it again in the next 20 seconds it has double power cost, then x4 if you use it again within 20 seconds, x6 if you use it again in 20 seconds etc. That way, you CAN spam it in an emergency, but it will cost you just about all your power to be able to force everything for that long.
That is pretty creative and interesting...with built in constraints that address the potential problem of spammability for any type of gambit-based "pledge-type" of "oh crud" skill for wardens...combined also with a threat swap nod. Good thinking on that!Quote:
Originally Posted by striverg
Dance Dance Tankolution!Quote:
Originally Posted by Malephor
I wouldn't mind seeing a revamp on the trait line. Most of them don't hold much appeal to me, so I just grab the ones I like. And Skill and Power is pretty much a wasted trait. Past that, It would be interesting if the Stances were each tied a trait line, and received buffs based on investing in those traits. Recklessness with increased damage but lower defense. Conservation with greater power regen and defenses. And Determination could be more morale regen and threat bonuses.
It would be nice if WotW actually accounted for those various increases as well.
I wouldn't mind seeing Masteries moved to being trainable skills either. They're such a part of the end game Warden that they should just be integrated into the normal level progression.
As for new gambits. I would like to see an advance version of Dark Before Dawn. Maybe to let Wardens use it a higher morale. We may see some 6 length gambits in Isengard, so maybe it could be there.
Just some thoughts from a newbie Warden.
I'm wondering why we always have to look at Gambits for threat creation in mid fight.
I still think a simple solution would be a threat javelin. Put it on long cooldown. But make it so it does SFA damage but makes the mob force attack or even 'swaps the aggro with whoever it is attacking'.
Thus we could get our tank swap skills in the change places on the bosses raids, but also would be a good panic button for when the boss runs towards the minstrel.
Dave
because Wardens are built around Gambits and any way where we would preform our roles without using them would go against the class design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aydee
people need to stop asking for one-button skills, we're not going to get them and if we do I think NS is a prime example of what we'd end up with.
That's not entirely fair. NS needs to be a one-button skill because it needs a cooldown, or tanking and aggro becomes ridiculously easy so that no one would miss the Masteries because we'd only use NS anyway. Gambits, as of yet, don't support any cooldowns, so it needed to be a one-button skill. The problem is that Turbine apparently don't think that a long cooldown was enough to contain it, so they put stupid restrictions on it to boot.Quote:
Originally Posted by lf2536
We are really being shunned here... Since basically the release of this class, none of the devs have actually listened to what us warden players have to say or suggest.
The only positive thing I can think of is 5 morale per vitality and the new combat system (auto attacks tick while in other animation).. These were not even aimed towards wardens specifically.
The title of this thread is pretty accurate to what most of us are thinking.. what about us?
Precisely, if it needs to be on a long CD, I don't want it. The thing I like most about gambits is that all my tools are available to me all the time. Bad enough watching the CDs on jav skills and masteries.Quote:
Originally Posted by ANewMachine
I don't understand why people (not just wardens here) want all kinds of buffs, but aren't willing to give up something in return. I think that's the key, depending on how you slot your traits, you should have to give something up to get buffed in another area. That's the problem with wardens, slotting specific ways never makes the warden stand out above and beyond other classes. Yes, wardens can slot diffferent ways to improve a specific playstyle, but I think each traitline could use a revamp and buffs/nerfs/whatever to make it stand out in a more pronounced manner.
I'm saying that people have to be willing to give stuff up to get improvements especially if the class is not terrible to begin with, and I think wardens are pretty solid. I just think they lack that specific ability to fill a main role in raids that no other class can fill as well or better.
Lol, have you seen the proposed changes to creeps? How about the minstrel update? The class needs an adjustment for 6 and 12 man content. Meaning it's already subpar. There isn't a reason I can think of that you need to nerf one aspect of the class because another aspect needs a buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr
The warden is more or less unchanged since launch in moria, aside from gamewide shifts, since launch there hasn't been a reason to bring a warden instead of a guard to a raid. Other classes have had their buffs and nerfs and times of demand and rejection, but wardens have always been the last picked. The nature of raiding is such that there is less overlap in what people need to do - more specialization, and because, as you said, wardens don't do any one thing better than anyone else, there will always be another class that will be picked over a warden in a given role. When something is broken, you fix it. Buffing/nerfing is to maintain balance. There is no balance.
/rant.
I think the most important thing to note here is actually nothing.
Developer feedback/information.
There have been very minimal changes or new skills to the Warden class. Comparatively to Rune-keepers, who were released at the same time as Warden's, we have gotten next to nothing. There have been many new skills, trait revisions, and legacy tweaks for Rune-keepers. Warden's got Unerring Strike and Never Surrender.
It is pretty obvious this class is not the major focus of development. Especially when Warden's are so glaringly inefficient in any role that they play compared to other classes, except maybe corruption removal.
Well, fortunately after 2 pages of Guardian whining, Orion posted on their thread. It does clarify to an extent that Champions are NOT suddenly going to be some combination of ultra-high-DPS + ultra-high-survivability + ultra-high-threat that will make Guardians useless. But it certainly doesn't address wardens. He does at the end say that he's pushing champion information first, so presumably we will hear about ours later, but obviously... Nothing for us just yet.
Fear not!
I have plans for Wardens too. There is not a lot of information that I can put out now, but the main issues that I can see with Wardens are as follows:
(Spear) DPS: There is an optimal gambit. One. There needs to be other options for dealing damage.
(Taunt) Tank: Tank training wheels. Most everything deals with drawing aggro. Morale taps will likely get adjusted to allow for raid tanking. (This gambit line is one that I am going to keep looking at because, in the distant future, it might warrant an overhaul.)
(Shield) Tank: Preferred tanking, very solid line, good skills...minor changes here.
Things that are on the table:
- Allowing the reduction in power for gambits to also apply to the masteries.
Making Determination more attractive by adding some power regen and increases crit chance reduction
Addition of effects that will allow for some Gambits to replace themselves when they are used (ex. Completing a Power Attack while under this effect would immediately fill the gambit bar with Spear, Shield, Taunt) All Gambit lines would benefit from this, the different stances would determine which gambit is altered.
Enhancements to some of the Way of the Spear Traits/Trait Set bonuses
Enhancements to some of the Way of the Shield Traits/Trait Set bonuses
Enhancements to some of the Way of the Fist Traits/Trait Set bonuses
One thing that I will be up front about is Masteries. They are not likely to be turned into skills at any time soon.
Sounds good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
I don't see where this is going, but I'm curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
Good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
I do like the idea of chaining up gambit tiers, sounds awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
Crit defense with determination sounds good. Dump the icmr altogether, for all I care.
I can't stress enough that fist needs a major rework.
:( At least you're all being upfront about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
Interesting. Less than what I hoped for, but more than I expected.
Eh...distant. Disappointing. I think overhauling the fist line could be the quickest/best way to address wardens' problems.Quote:
(Taunt) Tank: Tank training wheels. Most everything deals with drawing aggro. Morale taps will likely get adjusted to allow for raid tanking. (This gambit line is one that I am going to keep looking at because, in the distant future, it might warrant an overhaul.)
That's a very interesting description of the gambit lines. Odd that there isn't anything about the trait lines except that some enhancements are likely for going deep. Fist trait line needs an overhaul not just enhancements. Nobody uses it at all for anything. Isn't that the standard Turbine has used in all the other updates for when an overhaul is warranted? Of course, if I read this wrong and it is the fist trait line that might get an overhaul in the distant future, I can only say that next Thursday seems distant enough.....
sounds good. Where do i sign up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
Not really where i thought things were going to head but sounds good.
Ohh yeah, is there any word on some sort of aggro management tool or dump?
Wow, now that is dissapointing. As long as the other changes make up for it, I can live with that I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
No, matter what they do to the other traits, chances are I won't get to experience very many of the changes since I have three traits PERMANENTLY eating space in every single build I put together. Masteries as traits for good .... ugh.
Thanks Orion! Definitely an interesting teaser, and some really interesting ideas. Glad you're upfront about masteries- it IS a little disappointing because it wedges us in so tightly on class traits, but I think depending on how your replacement gambits proposal works, it might allow us to unslot a mastery and still build quickly. That might free us up a little to trait a little more freely. Certainly a good idea. :)
Fist needs a complete overhaul, as it stands I don't know a single warden who traits it aside from experimenting.
The only thing I really ask for is viability in raids, and that won't happen unless we get an Engage type skill at the very least, especially with new raids, if a guardian dies, champ picks up aggro then the guardian engages when rebuffed - the fight can be recovered. If a Warden dies, he's dead, doesn't matter how much you rebuff, it's going to take a long time for you to climb back to the top to secure aggro - the fight most likely won't be recovered.
Great to hear some feedback, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
WT - is that the one - can't wait to hear moreQuote:
Originally Posted by Orion
I really like AOE leaching - Looking forward to more information, very intriguing. I never understood the fears anyway, cower would be preferred to mobs running away from me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
Good - may be scale the HoTs considering 8k morale pools are very commonQuote:
Originally Posted by Orion
I hope that the gambit replacements effects aren't a consumable like our hymns. Excited to see other changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
I still don't understand the thinking behind masteries as skills as being a terrible idea. Oh well, hopefully with the level cap increase we'll get some more trait slots to be more flexible in builds. At least we can get to a capstone in its current form.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
Thanks for the post Orion!
What is this optimal gambit of which he speaks? Onslaught?Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
I use the bleed ones as well for some decent damage too.
Unless im mistaken its Wardens Triumph.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShammWoww
Oh and i second the sad face for masteries staying traits, can't we atleast get them rolled into a single legendary or something? As another poster said, basically forcing us to have three traits from 3 lines slotted permanently is something no other class suffers from. Not to mention that no other class has to relearn its entire gameplay with slotting/unslotting some traits.
Also im interested which fist gambit would replace itself, considering PB is our highest fist threat skill ... Also you mention it would be decided by stances, so Recklessness is PA, Conservation appears to be Shield so probably MS or something and Determination would then be Piercing Strike?!
I don't know, anyway i look at it you have alot of work ahead of you to make this all fit together. Best of luck, we'll flame you if its not perfect :).
Thank you for taking the time to respond. It is greatly appreciated. I would like to float a few thoughts and ideas. I don't expect everything here, this is just food for thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
This sounds good. It would be nice if, like other aspects of our class, or DPS is driven through self buffs. So in an ideal setup, we would throw up damage boosting buffs and then hitting on the actual damage dealing skills. Buffs in general should last at least 30 seconds. 10 seconds isn't long enough to be viable unless the buff is big. I also like the idea of stacking damage. It would be nice if while traited in spear we could fill a secondary DPS roll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
As is if we are tanking, we are in shield. I don't really see what you can do to change that. May I however float a counter suggestion. A fist traited warden could fill an off-tank/secondary aoe dps roll. Our Fierce Resolve gambit line, like the morale leech line, now affects multiple targets. This roll is ideal for when a warden must take on lots of weaker mobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
The Precise Blow/Piercing Strike line would remain our primary single target threat generator, however things would get rebalanced. Precise Blow would have reasonable instant threat. Piercing Strike would have the same, but also have some ToT. Finally Spear of Virtue would generate less immediate threat, but generate close to as much ToT than could be generated by spamming Piercing Strike in the same amount of time. The idea here is to use the longer gambit for battles. I also think Defiant Challenge could use some rethinking, but I don't use it enough to comment on it further.
The Shield line is in good shape as evidenced by the fact as most wardens run traited shield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
I think it would also be worth taking a look at our stances. Right now Conservation is the most commonly used stance, seconded maybe by recklessness for those trying to eek out a little more DPS. Most people after a certain level stop using Determination after a certain level. The defense of Conservation outweighs the morale regen of Determination. Recklessness' big drawback isn't the defensive debuffs, but the lost power regen of not being in Conservation. There needs to be better reasons for being in other stances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
I respect your position, however allow me to make the following argument and then I'll shut up. At the higher levels, any truly effective warden uses masteries. They reduce our power consumption and speed up building gambits. In order to be truly effective, a warden must have all three masteries no matter what build they are using. This is because even when focusing on spear gambits, they will chain together as many of the masteries as they can to complete the gambit even if they are from the other lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
As a result, almost all successful builds start with the same three traits. Couple that with the fact that the last four traits are needed to reach a capstone and you'll find that there isn't a lot of room to customize. This leads to only a few good trait builds with not a lot of variety. Pretty much every other class is allowed to reach a capstone and still sprinkle their build with traits from other lines.
Masteries are just to important to the way a warden plays at high levels.
Until Wardens get a force taunt like Engage to vault them to the top of the aggro list, they will never be viable raid tanks. There are just too many fight mechanics and situations that necessitate this skill in a raid. Until then they are nothing more than glorified off-tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion
I wouldn't mind if our ToTs changed.
PB - upfront threat, no ToT - +10% threat for 20s
PS - Upfront Threat, small tot
SoV - Large ToT
I don't mind not being able to recover from a death, it's being unable to manipulate threat at all that gets me.Quote:
Originally Posted by opurt
You know, its really early to tell just what all this means but after rereading Orions post i have to wonder if the Dev's really even keep a finger on the pulse of the Warden community? After all very little of the issues discussed over and over on these forums were commented on.
Not to say what Orion said was bad just not what you would expect with all the threads that have sprung up as of late.
While im thinking about it too, I hope that "Addition of effects that will allow for some Gambits to replace themselves" bit is controllable or i see it being very frustrating at times.
Very entertaining... and promising. Fist is an interesting idea making it a viable tanking line for new players. Cuts down on the amount of horrible wardens. But I'd rather it be our avoidance tanking line. But the mastery thing is sad.... very very sad. Can you pretty please make them one trait???? PLZ??!?!?!?!?!?!
They are the way a Warden plays NOW, but maybe imagine a world where building gambits fast might not be as important to effective gameplay, or you have alternate ways to quick build gambits. Then the masteries become more of a perk for the trait line then a need to try and compensate for other issues with the class. Especially since Orion seems to be suggesting that successfully completing gambits might become its own gambit builder.Quote:
Originally Posted by greendragoon100
It would be a decent amount of work for them to move those Masteries as they are impacted from other areas, certainly I could see from a development side that they put those in different trait lines with the idea you probably wouldn't get them all, and now that they have some years worth of play data they have a different understanding of the need to quick build gambits, they seem to be looking at a different kind of solution.
Anyhow, just some food for thought on why it might not be high on their list.