Stats will be getting an update with the launch of The Rise of Isengard™. Read more about these changes in the latest developer diary from Ken "Graalx2" Burd and post your comments here!
Printable View
Stats will be getting an update with the launch of The Rise of Isengard™. Read more about these changes in the latest developer diary from Ken "Graalx2" Burd and post your comments here!
No caps on main stats at all? holy...
And we get tact crit passives... while not really, but same effect lol
Umm, i dont really know if this is better or not
This seems like a really solid change. I can't wait to see additional Dev Diaries.
Brushfire
how can it be bad besides
Which really sounds like their just re doing rad but rather then locking the person out if they don't have enough from previous raids they can go in and help... just be slightly less helpful. (means you can use healer alts more then you could use DPS alts)Quote:
New Stat – Finesse
For all of those players who think the random number generator has it out for them this is the stat for you. Finesse is a ratings-based stat that will directly reduce the Resistance of monsters as well as their Block/Parry/Evade ratings. This stat will appear primarily on instance/raid/pvmp loot but there will be a few pieces available with Finesse from quests and crafting.
This new stat is a two sided weapon because monsters will have access to it also. Most landscape monsters won’t have much if any Finesse but expect high difficulty instance/raid Boss monsters to have quite a bit.
caps being removed from basic stats like Vitality sounds interesting, this has the potential of allowing massive morale pools (for Guards/Wardens in particular), but then, how much more of a stat can we expect on gear? there may not be a fixed cap on stats, but I expect there will still be a severe amount of limitation based on what's actually available.
Woah...
This should be interesting to test out.
A huge change from the past couple years. Though I can see why... it will allow them to make the difficult content more difficult. If a tank really has to gear out for mitigations that will be a huge when tanking a hard hitting boss. Same thing with healers wanting to heal those tanks.
Plus it gives them room to grow with new gear that gets added later on.
Removing stat caps means my tanky morale pools are gonna be huge! Not to mention tactical power pools ofc.
The consolidation of crit i do like, no more 'trash for everyone but hunters' gear :)
Agility for burglars is interesting, I find it easier to get agi atm so can't complain too much, and about time they had comparable offense calculations.
My one and only concern is the future of non class specific medium armour (book rewards etc). With hunts and burgs both relying on agility completely I hope there will be plenty of options for Wardens (as things stand heavy tanking armour options are miles better than medium).
My burg is loving this change, brilliant.Quote:
Burglars are a special case. We decided to switch their primary offence rating to be based off of Agility rather than Might. We felt that this Agility focus more closely matched our vision for Burglars and would have minimal impact on current burglars as Agility was already highly desired. And yes all of you burglars out there, you will get 10 times your Agility contribution to Melee Offence.
Okay, so my question about this, then. . .will we see stats like Might removed off of hunter gear, and like changes with all classes and their gear?Quote:
We have also changed the contribution to most class’s Offence ratings to use their primary stat * 10. This means that Lore-masters, Minstrels and Runekeepers will use Will to contribute to their Melee offence. Hunters will use Agility for their Melee offence and Guardians, Champions and Wardens will use Might for their Ranged offence ratings. The Captain’s offence ratings are unchanged.
Ah I forgot to say thanks to the Devs, in a similar vein to the recent switch to making Meds of North Men bind to account, these changes are looking brilliant.
Keep up the good work!
This is looking really good :)
My sole concern is that Finesse will be the new Radience. "Sorry, you can't come to this raid w.o. this or that gear. You need at least X Finesse to do raid Y or you'll hit squat". I'm sure the devs have learned from the Radience backlash and won't go down the same path :)
Remember there will be huge diminishing numbers.
Concerns about Finesse:
-Seems like useless stat for healers.
-Will be there recommended numbers you want to have for instances/raids? For example I don't want to miss or get resist on my hunter/rk/warden so I need 200 Finesse for 6man instance bosses and 400 Finesse for the raid bosses?
Wow! This is huge! I have no idea what to think...
... other than getting rid of all might on hunter gear, yea, that's basically it XD
It will be really interesting to see how this plays out.
I'm sure there will be more specific numbers once we get closer to launch. I wouldn't worry about it too much right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fin.
Other than that, I'm very excited. I really want to see what you guys are coming out with next!
I think it will be less an exact number, since its just a resist chance decrease, but more the better type thing. You'll most likely end up wanting people to have a good amount if they are expected to DPS in any form. Of course without testing it there is no way to know how much the bosses will have their finesse at (Speaking of which will finesse be on the lore-masters "knowledge of middle-earth" or w/e skill that reads defenses?).... Mind you by the second raid we'll know basically what you need, just from the fact we'll have the previous raids finesse gear, and know that is what the dev expects lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fin.
Umm..well super, can't wait to have more melee offence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clover
I'm impressed this seems a really nice change to make and should open up different specs to classes rather than having 90% of the best players of a class in the same gear.
Only issue i can see occurring is backdating ideas with for example some of the gear at the moment available hunters will be at a huge advantage on isengard release and whilst leveling at 65 as there is incredible agility stacking gear whereas very little might stacking gear so without caps at 65 hunters and burgs would massively outweigh champs for dps. Same for Rk's and Lm's who can get ridiculously high will/fate
These changes sound very interesting and a solid step in a great direction! :)
There was no mention of mitigations (eg melee, ranged, tactical) only resistances. Will the cap be raised on those as well or will those stats be done away with? I foresee some very difficult choices in gear ahead.
I love the stat cap removal and the increase in BPE caps (I easily get to 8-9k block on my warden if I use most of my +block gambits), however, I dislike the further consolidations. I see the resistance, mitigation, and many skill combinations in classes like LMs is a further dumbing down of an already easy game. I do hate the current uselessness of stacking, say, poison resist, but the solution seems to be to allow more functionality and more ways to increase resistances, not to combine them all together into one rating.
One question on primary stat contributions: does this mean wardens and guards will no longer get +5 morale for 1 vit? Again, I am worried that the "leveling the playing field" is just another blending together of classes and roles in a game where there are already very limited class and skill options. And with no new classes coming in RoI, this seems to mean we will be having another year or two of even less of the same ol'
Finally, I too hope that finesse does not become the new radiance...
Rift uses a similar mechanism to perform gear checks. There are three stats: Focus, Hit, and Toughness. Focus is required to hit with spells, Hit is required to hit with physical melee/ranged attacks, and Toughness is needed by tanks to reduce the effect of critical hits (basically it's the critical mitigation that already exists as a stat here).Quote:
Originally Posted by gonewhaned
Getting geared up enough to participate in non-raid instances is not difficult. It took most players a couple of weeks since a hybrid boss loot + barter system exists. Barter system stuff is better than boss drops, but the boss drops allow the player to progress into the more difficult instances. There are also various crafted items that have Focus/Hit/Toughness, and other buff items that add to those values that can be placed on your gear.
So the stat acts as a gear check, but it 1) is not too difficult to achieve for non-raiders, thus allowing them to access all non-raid instances and 2) minimally detracts from those more focused on progressive raiding, as they will be able to rely more on skill to make up for potential lacks in gear.
If the RoI instances use this type of hybrid approach, where instance drop gear can be used until enough barter items are collected to get the "best" non-raid instance drop, Finesse won't be a big deal. If RoI continues the current model where only the bartered gear is an improvement, then Finesse will be Radiance all over again.
Hmm.
A lot of that looks like yet more oversimplification. From the sounds of it they may as well rename might, agility et al "Melee stat" "Ranged Stat" "Tactical Stat" etc and have done with it. [EDIT] Oh, and as the above poster points out, it is in direct imitation of Rift. Turbine must have to work very hard to be this derivative.
Also more change for change's sake. They couldn't just do what needed to be done and sort out b/p/e and the stat caps, could they? They had to go mucking around with the way the game's basic principles.
And I shouldn't worry about finesse becoming the new radiance - I guarantee you they'll be selling 'finesse tomes' in the store.
Is there any way to cancel my Isengard preorder and get my money back? :rolleyes:
In terms of gating instances, no, finesse will not become the new radiance. Turbine learned from that mistake, and they won't gate instances with some useless mechanic again. Don't worry.Quote:
Originally Posted by duamarth
In terms of forming groups to run said instances, I can see a little bit where you're coming from. Obviously, if someone gets invited to your group that doesn't necessarily have the recommended, or even any finesse, among players, yes, this might become somewhat of a gating issue.
The only way finesse is going to affect groups is if the players themselves see it as a sticking point to form groups upon. Other than that, I think it's a great addition and just gives us another 'stat' to improve ourselves with.
Better late than never--fantastic news. Please keep it up.
Couple of items...
Why not simply remove all caps? For BPEs and other Pre-Moria stats, this would just be like SoA when we didn't have any caps aside from the Primary stats.
Finesse - the new radiance?
Huh. Not sure exactly what to make of this yet. It is different. Just not sure if it's better.
One thing I don't like at the moment is the whole "Lore-masters use Will for melee offense" bit, nor the consolidation of the three tactical crit ratings into one single rating. It dumbs things down a bit, and I'm not sure I see yet where the big up-side is.
dude... 25% cap on BPE....
AWWWWWWW YEEEEEEAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!
That's just plain hawt, that's crazy hawt.
Most everything else just looks like it's easier to build your toon the way you want to, I'm happy with that as it means less stat juggling. The consolidation of tacticals, resistance, etc. is nice, no objections here. Finesse is meh, its a needed balancing factor to the new changes I guess.
The changes to secondary characteristics looks nice too considering the increased functionality primary stats will be getting. I've always been a bit disappointed with our primary stats because, well, they just didn't seem to do much of anything. Atm a difference of 100 might is hardly noticeable.
My only concern is that wardens need our +Crit Defense secondary characteristic, get rid of this and an already noticeable issue becomes more problematic. Could we at least make this into a gambit if not a secondary characteristic?
My Burg absolutely hates this change. Meh. Why couldn't Burgs have both instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosoff
Remember bosses have Finesse too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Regero
I assume you are referring to the crit defense passive we have currently and will no longer have come RoI? At least that was my take on the whole all passives are being removed thing. So crit defense looks like it will only come through traiting/gear/relics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Regero
Some of the changes seem positive, although I do have a couple of questions, as some of the points seem unclear to me.
Is this a seperate stat from the existing tactical defence stat? So would we basically have:Quote:
Tactical Mitigation – this stat will replace the various mitigation types used for tactical skills, Fire, Lightning, Frost, Acid and Shadow. Damage will still have a damage type because some skills will modify a specific mitigation but in general, you will mitigate tactical damage using your Tactical Mitigation stat.
Common mitigation
Tactical mitigation
Melee defence
Ranged defence
Tactical defence
If so, it almost seems pointless to retain the mitigation stats - would seem more worthwhile to scrap them altogether and make armour affect defence ratings instead.
My second question is where does this leave virtues that give boosts to shadow defence and resist ratings? Will these now give a general resist / tactical defence boost, and if so, will they be nerfed? Otherwise, some of the virtues may end up being pretty OP.
Although I like the changes to the stat caps, I'm very wary of the stat consolidation. It does seem like a substantial dumbing down of the current mechanics, which is not a good thing imo.
Actually, Wardens using Might for Ranged damage makes some sense -- the stronger you are, the harder you can throw a javelin (and the bigger and more damaging the javelin you throw can be!).
I remember back in other MMOs, where you need specific armor sets for specific bosses (Fire, Frost, Shadow, etc), and not with nostalgia. So, combining those resistances and mitigations looks good to me (having a "Tactical" armor set and a "Melee" set for my tanks isn't too bad, but I'd hope that bosses would have a mix, so that you can't simply min/max two sets and be done with it . . . making a set that blends the two for overall tanking should be the way to go imo).
Cap increases/removals are great, especially with the idea that you have to do stat gymnastics to even reach those caps. This means that your caps are pretty much just the best gear you can get, not having to juggle caps.
Why would you rather have offence rating tied to might than agility? Might gives you block (need a shield to block) & parry. Agility gives you evade, parry & crit rating; it's also easier to get. Currently, burgs only get 7 points of melee offence rating per point of might, with this change we'll get the full 10. It's a positive change for burgs in every way.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimano
I agree that this seems like a simplification of the mechanics. One bright side that I can see is server load. Simpler calculations means less strain on the servers. That's a good thing, but we don't know what the cost is yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by brasswire
Also, for me, it is not clear on what affects tactical offense vs. tactical crit. Does Will now contribute to both? This is how I read the diary. If so, is Fate going away? If not, what will be its role? Vit directly affects morale pool. Is Will still going to be the stat that directly affects power pool? Not sure if it makes sense to do this with these changes.
Seems like each class just needs 'the one stat' and be done.
Damage type versus Attack type.Quote:
Originally Posted by IyvanEU
If a mob makes a ranged attack that deals Shadow damage, you combine Ranged Defense with Tactical Mitigation, for example. Also, personally, as a tank, I like having a greater variety of universally useful tanking stats (unlike Shadow Mitigation or Poison Resist, which are useful only in certain situations, if at all). Otherwise, it is just maxing those that we do have, then just stacking dps/threat stats.
Yes, I can't wait to have this on my champ. Oh, wait....^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Regero
The consolidation seems to be good thing, now I have to focus on might and can ignore agility on my champ for increasing hit chances.
Finesse: ääh, I really hope this system actually works. I am sick and tired of seeing standard NPCs b/p/e my melee attacks most of the time. Yet, this new system has a bad taste. Reminds me too much of radiance and I really hope there is no gating character behind this.
Btw.: Do we get an inherited/base Finesse value by leveling up like evade/parry etc.? Or will this only be increased via gear/items? If not, will there be classes who will have a higher base Finesse value?
The Finesse addition is such a long-overdue concept for this game: effectively, you're talking about Hit Chance.
So instead of everyone & their mother blindly stacking for pure offense (Ranged/Melee/Tact), they will have to consider Hit Chance as well (in the form of your Finesse stat). This gives Turbine the option to give bosses high BPE/Resist ratings, which they really can't do right now, and force that choice among us players: do you want to hit hard, or do you want your shots to hit? Both will become important.
Likewise, this gives Turbine a MUCH more elegant way to keep in check sky-high BPEs among tanks/heavies/burgs/etc, without lame solutions like caps. So if your bad-mamma-jamma Guardian is rolling around with 75% BPE + partials thinking you're invincible, no worries: Turbine can keep this from becoming overpowered in the form of Finesse for bosses.
Long story short, this is a great change/direction and should give players far more control over their characters/builds, which is why we all grind for loot to begin with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlinator
My read is that the basic contribution of each stat stays the same, the only thing that changed was that each class gets one stat that contributes to offense, instead of 3 stats contributing to 3 different types of offense. So fate will still give in combat regen, tac crit, and tac crit magnitude. Will still should give power, OCPR and either it's fear resist component goes away completely or will become tactical resist.
At least that is my read on it.
As I understand it:
Captains have several tactical-based offensive skills: Battle-shout, Routing Cry, Noble Mark.
Captains currently receive 1 offensive rating for these skills per point of Will.
This 1x bonus will remain in RoI, whereas the other classes will receive 10x bonuses to their secondary offensive skills.
This does not seem right. Am I mistaken somewhere?
This means that Lore-masters, Minstrels and Runekeepers will use Will to contribute to their Melee offence. - Their MELEE? Is this a typo?
Hunters will use Agility for their Melee offence - er... typo?
Guardians, Champions and Wardens will use Might for their Ranged offence ratings. - ....typo?
I feel very stupid not understanding this. But OK, I'll roll with it. Can I safely assume that a Minstrel's Will contributes to their Tactical Offence, a hunter's Agility contributes to Ranged offence and a Champ/Warden's Might to their melee offence too?
As for the rest... yay! Makes things a lot simpler. I never expected to be a 'capped' player, but I have been for a long time and as someone who loves to collect shiny things, stat-juggling and trying to keep under the caps has not been as much fun as dripping myself in all my favourite pieces.
I can't say my burglar has a lot of Agi gear as I focused on Might... oh well, something to seek between now and RoI. High-Agility gear always seemed so much rarer than high Might gear, stuffed in BG and T2 OD and other unobtainable places.
Unfortunately it takes away from how some people build their chadracters. My Burglar prizes Might over Agility so now I have to fall in line with everyone else. There will be less originality after isengard especially if you want to melee with a burg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Regero
How about the ones of us that don't want or desired agility for our Melee Offence? How about the ones of us that bought Might stat tomes?Quote:
Originally Posted by dev diary
Minimal impact? Not on my burg it isn't minimal. I have to redo my entire build. Wow. welcome to WoW version Lotro.
You would have to anyway at level 75 so there really isn't much to worry about now is there?Quote:
Originally Posted by kimano
Not a typo, just not perfectly clear. Offensive ratings are being combined; no more breaking it down by Will=Tactical, Might=Melee, Agility=Ranged. So for LMs Will contributes to their Offence Rating. Since all types of attacks will use that shared rating Tactical, Melee & Ranged will all be impacted by their amount of will. For Hunters, Agility will determine their Offence Rating for all types of attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilka
Now that might be an issue. But I really doubt there will be any reimbursement.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimano
No one has mentioned the increase (assumed) in devestate chance. Is there going to be a cap with it too?
-Also, creep side Finesse may be a big factor too. If we do get it somehow, via corruption or other method. Freeps may need a large amount just to be viable out there, and if creeps DONT get finesse, if freeps stack it then creeps will be even more underpowered.
Are critical/devastate chance caps remaining the same?
You will still have the increased parry and mitigation that extra Might provides. However, I've always thought Agility->Damage was silly. Agility affecting hit and crit makes sense (better chance to both hit and to hit a vulnerable spot), but, with everything but crossbows, Might would logically improve damage (Greater Might could affect how strong the pull you could have on your crossbow and the stronger kick-back you could endure, both resulting in greater damage, so the argument could be made even there.)Quote:
Originally Posted by kimano
Doubt they will raise the crit/devastate chances, would be nice though but it would be severly overpowered.
Ok...time for one of the smart captains to come in and map this out for me. I'm with the earlier poster, concerned that captains' balanced stats could be affected. The thing that really jumped out at me was:
On the other hand, the consolidation is good - I like that I can have tact crit with melee crit :)Quote:
Most class offence ratings to use their primary stat * 10....captain's offence ratings are unchanged
What about the absolutely unfair stats on items that is TACTICAL CRITICAL MULTIPLIER?Quote:
Originally Posted by Clover
There are no range critical multiplier, nor there are any melee critical multiplier. Which is why all the range/melee classes get annoyed when they see tact crits hit lot higher than any of the range/melee player's skill, but what they don't realize is that tactical classes are using around 36% tact critical multiplyer.
PLEASE adress this issue, either separate it as tactical healing multiplier or give range/melee classes something similar on ARMOURS.
yeah thats the impression I get. It merely means that each class will have one primary stat that affects all their offence, be it tac,ranged, or melee. So LMs Will stat affects their tac/ranged/melee offence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilka
A guards might affects their tac/ranged/melee offence
anyway.. interesting changes. will need quite a while to think them through. Seems like a bit too much change but whatever
Maybe. Logically, though, we couldn't increase our Fate at all - your fate is your fate, and a necklace isn't going to make yours any better. It's a name for a mechanic, and the Agil/Dex = ranged thing is a holdover from D&D that sticks with most games with stat systems. C'est la vie.Quote:
Originally Posted by KahnyaGnorc
You know they'd have to nerf the overall DPS to account for the now-higher crits, right? I mean, yeah, tact crit is a big number, but the DPS numbers for an RK are not vastly different than those of a Hunter, and Champs lol at tact crit while they mow down hordes of enemies at once. The fact that Group A has something that Group B does not really doesn't matter if the outcome (here, DPS) is largely the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by witchking782
Actually, it was only in 4th Ed that Dex affected ranged damage. Thrown weapon damage was Strength, Bows required a Mighty Composite to scale damage, which was Strength-based, and Crossbow damage never changed based on any stat.Quote:
Originally Posted by ANewMachine
My opinion is these are great changes. You can use whatever you want and not worry about it. I never liked the caps anyways.
Woops the above post is from me. Didnt switch my bad.
Finesse would be a stat that is most useful for DPS classes. Support/debuffers/tanks will find it somewhat useful. Healers will have little use for it at all.
I'm concerned now that the end-game raid gear will be high-finesse gear. To maximize your raid's effectiveness, you'd first want to give your DPS classes the high-finesse gear, and then support/tanks and then finally healers when no one else needs it. Raids are going to groan/curse if a Mini accidentally rolls on end-game gear and gets the high finesse boots. It will get very disappointing to be anything but a DPS class is this is the case...the DPS classes already get the most bang for the buck on legendary weapons, adding in another set of items that clearly favors that playstyle doesn't make much sense. It's not yet time to go back to the days of Moria where only the DPS classes mattered.
Here's to hoping that finesse adds to threat/mitigations for Guardians/Wardens, and outgoing healing for Mini's and RKs!!
Finesse would help both of those roles, if the mini/rk gets threat while healing, finesse helps him/her avoid being slaughtered. Finesse would help the tank(champs can tank too in isengard) avoid being hit more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobbins
Can you please do something similar like this to captains please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clover
Right now all classes have around 3 stats to concentrate on while being able to manage their role, (primary offense, vitality and critical rating stat).
For capt we have: Will for healing, fate for tact crit, vit for morale pool, might for melee offense, agi for melee crit, fate for tact crit.
This is really frustrating because there are hardly any armour pieces that are speficically designed for capt and will have: might, vit, will. So if captains are geared properly they will be high value on will/fate/vit but low on might/agi. Now i understand that its the curse of the class and you cant really expect to be good at both healing and melee offense at once. But that is how EVERY SINGLE CLASS other than captain is designed as. They don't need to worry about secondary roles and they can concentrate on 3 stats to AHEIVE MAX POTENTIAL without having to use a secondary gear at all times in the bag.
Can you PLEASE consider changing the melee offense primary stat from might to vit. The captain class is always known to having more morale pool than others mainly because we need morale to use our healing skills since they cost power. This will allow captains to worry about Vit/will/fate/agi and still be very useful in groups without being FORCED to carry two different sets where we have to worry about might or will.
This problem has been seen throughout the gear specification of the captain class. In moria we had great gear (obviously overpowered with stats). In DN, we gained might and vitality but lost will. In BG we gained might/vit and melee offsence but lost a lot of will. In Hele, we gained will/fate but lost morale/might. In OD we gained a vit/will/fate but lost a lot of might.
You can see how the captain class gear it self is a pendulum that keeps swinging between melee offense and healing power. Heck lets be honest, our melee offense isn't that great and our healing will never replace mini/rk. So why are you continuing to torment us with different stats on gears when you can certainly consider changing the primary melee offense to vitality.
PLEASE I'm sure the total stats that captains have will be very similar to the total stats that all the other classes have but we will still have to shuffle between healing and might gear and that is just very bad class design.
I will reserve judgement till we get some more information or better yet see it for ourselves.
My initial reaction is similar to many others.
Some of the changes are good (no more stat caps), some of the changes appear to be dumbing down for no good reason, and finesse does have a horribly familiar glow to it. Hopefully it won't be as poorly implemented as radiance was.
I think there's some good and some bad in this thread:
Good:
Reworked caps: I figured something like this was in the works. Players were butting up against the caps, and it was severely limiting itemization. Now we can choose to go for a lopsided build or make a more rounded character.
Combined mitigations/crit: I don't know a lot of people who built for specific mitigations (maybe in certain raid fights, but that's it), which made those stats on gear/virtues rather useless. Now they won't be. I don't see the crit changes being that huge except for the few classes (Hunters, Minstrels) who have damage skills in more than one category. Should be fun to rack up the NC/HS crits on my Minstrel.
Bad:
The Rift imitations: To be fair, I think EQII did this first. It never really made sense to me. Why is my Wisdom/Will/whatever making my melee attacks hit harder? It will be nice to ratchet up my Herald's Strike damage, but it will also make Might a trash stat for everyone except the melee classes. Also a lot of Burglars had high Might builds, which will be useless now.
And as for Finesse, hopefully it won't become a lazy raid check. Like any "required" stat for raids, it limits gear choice and build customization.
nah won't help minstrel or rk (if rk is healing) here is why,Quote:
Originally Posted by Elyske
Since the boss gets it they will hit US easier regardless of how much finesse we have as healers its an offensive stat not defensive, so its useless to people who never have to hit the boss IE healers. My lore-master will need it to stop resists on debuffs, but my minstrel won't since their changing ballads so I don't even care if it resists I still get my ballad buff.Quote:
Finesse is a ratings-based stat that will directly reduce the Resistance of monsters as well as their Block/Parry/Evade ratings.
Avoidances will be way too high, I really don't see why those needed be raised. It's going be tought to beat tanks in moors, but I'd like to know how much this new stat Finesse will have effect.
Removing stat cap is very good.
And:Quote:
Originally Posted by lf2536
My main guardian has walking around morale of 8k. Buffed for raids he breaks 11k.Quote:
Originally Posted by duamarth
Lifting the limit on vitality is going to send that even higher, but removing the 5/vit for tanking classes returns him to champ/cappy health levels. I want the 5/vit rule for tank morale to stay, but it is unclear from the posting. And if there are class changes coming for guardian, it may not have as much impact as I think. The 25% block chance certainly helps.
Graalx2, would you please clarify this point?
UPDATE:
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...39#post5484139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graalx2
''This means that Lore-masters, Minstrels and Runekeepers will use Will to contribute to their Melee offence. Hunters will use Agility for their Melee offence and Guardians, Champions and Wardens will use Might for their Ranged offence ratings.''
This will work the same way with defences??? Meaning, Melee defence, Ranged Defence and Tactical? An will it be scaled for each class? Because if Melee defence of agility scales the same way as might now, a Hunter could have the same melee defence than a Warden. A dps class same defence as a tank class, would be odd...
Isn't the idea that you have to concentrate in either healing or DPS? It's the same with minstrels, war-speech or healing (and rune-keepers). Do you want both at the same time?Quote:
Originally Posted by witchking782
As a burglar, I can't thank you enough for the change of our offence source and finally bringing the contribution in line with all the other classes.
To those who are complaining about the change because of petty concerns such as "I built myself for might, it's going to be useless": these changes will come with Rise of Isengard. Level cap 75. Safe to say all your current gear will be obsolete and you will get yourself a new build at the new level cap.
I'm not entirely certain what the effect is going to be in the overall game.
I do know that more people will be going for the same gear now.
I'm not happy about the burglar primary stat, as Agility was never a very important stat, regardless of what Turbine (and much of the burg community) may claim. I've ran 300 agility on a top end build before, and it made little to no difference in DPS, accuracy, etc. in regards to melee attacks.
As I read the Captain's concerns to which you're responding, it is more along the lines of Minstrels (and LMs) will be able to focus on a single stat (Will) in order to perform either function. Captains don't appear to have the same ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtzumoKayami
Er? No, it won't. Finesse makes enemies easier to hit (and enemy Finesse makes YOU easier to hit). It doesn't add to your defenses at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elyske
I oppose Finesse (Radiance Mk II), removing stat caps and the introduction of "Resistance" replacing separate Wound, Fear, Poison and Disease resistances.
Exactly, its captains choice to use healing skills or melee skills depending on what the group needs but they shouldn't have to flip between gear in order for them to preform at their best. Plus our constant healing skill is on 3 sec cooldown which means we're rotating one melee skill and one healing skill even at the best of times. let us choose what skill to use thats best for the group but don't gimp us on stats by forcing splitting melee offense and outgoing healing on two very opposite stats that are never together in any sort of jewelry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lomeloth
Interesting.
I certainly like the removal of caps, especially when combined with a "diminishing returns" mechanic. Hopefully it will force people into making some difficult decisions about how they build their character, with pros and cons to each decision. I like that. One impact of stat caps is that it tended to make players at the upper end a little too cookie-cutterish. (Every endgame guardian has 650 vitality. Every endgame champion has 650 might. Every endgame hunter has 650 agility.) Now there will be choices...as a guardian, do I want to roll with 800 vitality and all my other stats at 200 (yes an exaggeration), or do I want 650 vitality and 600 might, agility, etc?
I'm a little dubious about some of the other things. Does this mean that my LM with 650 will is going to have a melee offense rating equal to (or at least close to) a champion with 650 might? That seems...strange...to say the least. Or maybe I'm reading that wrong, but that seems to be what it is saying, classes like LM will now use their will to calculate melee offense rating.
I'm unsure about the whole concept of finesse. It has potential to be really cool, and it has the potential to be another radiance fiasco. The fact that the diary goes through great lengths to indicate this will be a stat mostly found on instance/raid gear lends itself to this fear. Clearly it doesn't seem like it will be a "hard gate" the way radiance was, but it certainly has the potential to be a "soft gate" depending upon how big of an impact it has on the battlefield. If the effect is relatively minor, I don't think there are any worries. If it has a profound impact on your success, however, then essentially it becomes a gate...just a player-imposed gate rather than an instance-entry-gate. Or another way of looking at it is, when you start comparing different players, is this going to be one stat among many? Or the "one stat to rule them all"?
Keep in mind that "instance/raid/pvmp" are all areas that a lot of folks never or rarely participate in. If you're only going to have a "FEW pieces available with Finesse from quests and crafting" then you had better have very FEW landscape monsters with Finesse. Maybe limiting it to landscape elite masters and above is probably fine, but if many regular landscape monsters (elites and below) get it then increase the FEW pieces from quests and crafting into the "wide selection" realm. I have to say this certainly smells like radiance at first. Remember, questers could get a few radiance items usually through epic story quests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graalx2
I know at this point it is likely useless to bring this up, but if Finesse is pretty much only available from raids, etc. (except for a FEW pieces through quests/crafting) then, like early Radiance that gave the wearer an advantage via perma-Hope buffs, the raiders will blow through landscape and smaller instances causing Turbine to increase difficulty to compensate. Don't ruin combat for those that only quest for the, you know, story (an area that Turbine is about to have some hefty competition in).
Don't let this turn into Radiance Part Deux. I know plenty of end game players and not a single one of them ever had anything but extreme disgust for radiance.
Ah, now I see where you are getting. It does seems unfair to captains to have to choose gear according to the function, as opposed to MNS and LM that will have will add to tactical and melee damage, besides the healingQuote:
Originally Posted by witchking782
Nice to see the usual range of reactions, especially the ones freaking out (** Oh my God, it's radiance all over again!!! **) from a very short dev diary filled with generalities and absolutely no details at all. Keeps my work day rolling along nicely.
Anyhow, based on the general statements in the diary, I have a neutral view towards these changes. Can't see anything I would consider game changing at this point, but that may change as details are released.
Until then, keep the "freak outs" coming as they provide me with a good laugh!
great changes.
possibly THE most needed change to this game imo. definitely in the top 3.
This all seems good except for the removal of the secondary traits. Why the hell would Will help with a melee attack? A Loremaster probably shouldn't be as good at melee.
I like the stat cap removal and B/P/E increase... however... STOP DUMBING DOWN THE GAME. I don't want all the mitigations grouped together and I don't want to focus on getting one stat only.
Also Finesse better not be another gating fail. Please take the time and energy to implement it properly so it doesn't dishearten people from raiding.
thanks.
"This means that Lore-masters, Minstrels and Runekeepers will use Will to contribute to their Melee offence. Hunters will use Agility for their Melee offence and Guardians, Champions and Wardens will use Might for their Ranged offence ratings. The Captain’s offence ratings are unchanged."
What is / are the primary stats for the captian's offense rating?
For solo/pvp mode, I usually try to find a balance with morale and tac offense. My power pool is generally less important for me. So, normally I might choose vit over will for this build. However, I will now have to change that which is ok, but seems to be a lot of missing info still. For instance, Will I still have tac offense relics for my LIs? Just not sure how much is changing yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azerog
This is not a fix. It is a change. A change to make agility a very important stat, unlike what it is now.Quote:
Originally Posted by olagaton3434
Basically, you will no longer have to focus on a stat only for its contribution to damage (current might). Agility, your new primary stat, will be contributing to damage, crit, evade, parry, accuracy.
Of course this has disadvantages as well. Might will pretty much be useless for a burglar. We all know how hunters feel when their class sets give them hundreds of might. I hope developers will take this change into consideration when designing equipment for burglars.
Why would this change how you build for solo? Will is the primary stat for tac offense now, that is not changing. What is changing is that will will allow you to hit harder with herald's strike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlinator
You are correct, there is a lot of missing info here. The Dev diary was very vague in many respects. I am choosing to see it as 'If it wasn't specifically mentioned, it is not changing', now that may not turn out to be the correct view but given how little information there was in the diary I don't think we can come to any other conclusions.
Currently it is might*10.Quote:
Originally Posted by EmmeraldFireFox
Do caps not get outgoing healing is will*10 as well? (I have no idea what the current tac offense is for a cap)Quote:
Originally Posted by witchking782
As if the game is not easy enough already.
With 25% B/P/E, no limit to stats and simplification to 1-2 stats that matter (primary+vitality) you remove every finesse from the game.
You decided to remove every choice between more crit, more offense, more hit chance for an overly simplistic focus on the main stat and vitality.
That what you call "Finesse" is going to become Radiance 2.0. It's a raid gating stat, just like radiance was.
Things you could have simplified:
Skirmish Marks/Exchange, the Legendary Item system.
Oh well...
Overall, I like the stat overhaul.
I have a question though. Will the stats that contribute to Critical Hit Rating still remain the same? i.e. Agility for Melee/Range and Fate for Tactical.
I have a similar question in regard to Gear. I assume the current Gear will be changed, although it will become obsolete rather quickly come RoI. For instance, the line bonuses for Shadow Mitigation on my RK's BG gear will now change to Tactical Mitigation? The new -disease/poison/fear/wound stats on the OD set will change to the general -Resistance stats? Just wondering.Quote:
Originally Posted by IyvanEU
Agreed. This is a better way to go. It also encourages players to participate more in the general raid progression without the blatant slap of gating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis25
This looks to be a great solution for the melee and ranged classes that currently have limited ways to combat high resist rates for tactical attacks. Should help to ease that pain and make their traits/legendaries for the tactical based skills more effective as they should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosoff
The Crit cap is being raised to 25%. Don't know about Devastate. It wasn't mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erethal
Graalx2: "The caps on Block, Parry, Evade, Incoming Healing and Critical Hit ratings have been increased to 25%."
My burgy loves you right now! Question though... will Burglars need to focus on Might at all now (apart from the increased parry chance and common defence it provides)?
Am intrested to see how the changes will affect my RK. Hoping my base level of "finesse" is high enough to be effective in corruption removal!
Really brave to put no cap on Might/Will e.t.c. but I think with diminishing returns this will be fine.
Am very excited what no cap on block/parry/evade will do for tanks... hopefully this means a well-geared "true" tank (i.e. guard/warden or traited champ) will take even less damage, making healing on hard-hitting bosses a little easier.
Nice work Graal! :)
Question: What do the resistance changes to do Virtues? In particular, my Guard uses Zeal for melee defense, and the benefits to Disease and Poison removal are the other 2 stats. If resistances are getting combined, that implies some serious changes for what Zeal will give. Much as I might like to wait and see, it's kind of relevant now, as I've been eying which virtues I want to level to 12 while I wait for Isengard. And it hints at a potentially larger change to Virtues overall, not just Zeal.
I kind of lament the end of stat caps and the elimination of "secondary" stats. It seems like stat caps encouraged players to find new ways to build their characters. Rather than every Guard racing for the most Vitality, we had to get good Vitality and then see what other stats were worthwhile to build up. Maybe this will be for the better, but I worry it's going to lead to one-dimensional character building, especially for DPS and tank classes.
I think I like the change to Burglars. I always felt torn between Might and Agility, and I wound up balancing them both. Now I know I can go with Agility and be happy, and not worry about the melee crit cap nearly as much.
I'm not concerned about "my build". We'll be wearing all new gear by level 75 anyway. It'll probably be like Moria, where we all log in the day of the patch feeling way weaker than we were the day before, but by the time we get to cap we'll be back where we were.
Ya our outgoing healing is from will and melee offense is from might which are two completely opposite stats that are never seen together in any jewlery. That is whats frustrating about our class that we have to switch between gears to be really effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azerog
As described, Finesse is concerned with OUTGOING hit rates. If you are concerned about INCOMING damage/to-hit rates, then you need to work on your mitigation and avoidance ratings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elyske
The use of caps also caused the problem with itemization imho. For example when you capped your main stat and you were looking for other stats to improve, that usually meant looking for gear not primarily designed for you. For example on my hunter when I equip full hunter armor set and like 2 pieces of hunter jewellery that is all I need for my primary stats. And other 5-6 pieces are mix of caster or whatnot items.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliel
Also when every new item Turbine made, and it had these +60, +65, +75 stats people were passing on them because of caps.
...dont know what really to feel about this...they added caps when moria came out...but now they are raising them to 25%....trying to figure this out.. 1) they want to make it easier for new people to do endgame by allowing them to be beefier? 2) they want to make it to where all 'tanking' classes will be equals in mit, and all dpser's equals??
And they are not doing anything for capts?...that last line got me worried again for my captain..hope we get more feedback soon
I haven't seen a dev response yet in this thread, however I am hopeful they will.
I have 2 questions regarding some of the changes to BPE
1) Base avoidance cap is now 25%. Will partials avoidance still exist and if so will it have a cap?
2) The Finesse mechanic seems like a means for raid bosses to still be able to hit players with higher avoidance. Is it correct to assume like most mechanics, the rate at which they are lowered will need to be determined via test, not told before hand?
Thank you in advance
I understand where you are coming from, my cap doesn't get much play any more but I already had 2 sets of gear one more might focused and one more will/fate focused. So the way I read it, graal was saying caps won't be changed, they still get a 10x bonus on might for melee and will for healing. So caps don't get simplified but don't lose the double stat focus either.Quote:
Originally Posted by witchking782
Will creeps have a way to increase their ratings to compensate for the new caps?
Ok all secondary characteristics Except for Critical Defence.Quote:
We have finally decided to level the playing field for all classes as far as secondary characteristics go, we have deleted them all.
For the changes to primary stat contributions I only listed the changes. Guardians and Wardens for example, still get 5 Morale per Vitality.
Partial Avoidance is still at the present cap.
Finesse will be a much kinder and gentler gate, if it even rises to that level. The numbers in the following example are for demonstration purposes only. Please do not take them as ‘The Way Things Are’. They are only meant to be an example of our intent.
A top-of the line Raid Boss will probably have BPE and Resistance around 35% total with lesser bosses and trash elites having much less. A few pieces of crafted or quest gear give 10-15% off those totals and another 10-15% Finesse available through instance/raid loot this will lower BPE into more than acceptable levels. That’s the plan anyway and as such subject to change.
Nice changes overall, but it was a somewhat short explanation to the huge overhaul that it brings. As a guard I'm mostly concerned about Finesse and caps to mitigation and resists.
With this additions, a WRD will be able to reach huge BPE values (as he/she should), but if the mitigations don't change somehow, we guards may be at a disadvantage here. Even tough Finesse on the enemy side might compensate for it, how it will work is not very clear. Will it take away some pure percentage or will it take some rating?
I'd find awesome if guards and wardens could have some very explicit difference like this, with a warden avoiding most hits and a guard seeing a lot of tiny numbers rolling over his head.
We still have three months to release and I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing more on this soon(tm). Also Graalx2, guard dev diary, please?
LOL I was thinking about tac crit then started talking about tac offense. #$%^&Quote:
Originally Posted by Azerog
You're right, of course. Was mainly thinking out loud about my future build. Tack on the new minstrel changes and there will be a lot to consider. For me, at this point, speculation is not possible.