What are Bugans really?

I remember playing through the quests when Enedwaith first was released, and I remember my eyes went 'WHAT!?' when I read some of the quests concerning the Bugans... but I don't remember what caused my reaction.. so.. can you help me? not with remembering my thoughts, but explaining to me.. as best you can, what they really are, as I think there's some confusion to that, lore-wise...

Are they

* Hobbits corrupted into "half-goblins"
* Simply hobbit brigands
* Some other creature?

And..where do they come from?

They look like Hobbits to me. I suppose if Smeagol could be corrupted they figured they could justify it.

I thought they were goblin-things trying to imitate hobbits.

could be wrong.

Bugan is Old Welsh for Hobgoblin, If I remeber the quests we found out they were goblin kin and not a forgoten race of Hobbits as 1st thought. Long time since I did the quests though, but pretty positive they are hobgoblins in game.

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Originally Posted by Salahn

Bugan is Old Welsh for Hobgoblin, If I remeber the quests we found out they were goblin kin and not a forgoten race of Hobbits as 1st thought. Long time since I did the quests though, but pretty positive they are hobgoblins in game.

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I'm pretty sure this is true.
And given how closely the Enedwaith landscape resembles Wales in some places, that would also make a lot of sense.

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Originally Posted by Salahn

Bugan is Old Welsh for Hobgoblin, If I remeber the quests we found out they were goblin kin and not a forgoten race of Hobbits as 1st thought. Long time since I did the quests though, but pretty positive they are hobgoblins in game.

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Yeah.. that might be it. I think it's weird that they're goblin-kin because they live so close to the hobbits, and therefore would more naturally be hobbit brigands, breaking off from the others.

Maybe they are hobbits 'corrupting' into goblins? like elves were 'corrupted' into orcs..? because.. these bugans look more like hobbits than the other goblins we find in Middle-Earth!

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Originally Posted by Brethwyn_EU

Yeah.. that might be it. I think it's weird that they're goblin-kin because they live so close to the hobbits, and therefore would more naturally be hobbit brigands, breaking off from the others.

Maybe they are hobbits 'corrupting' into goblins? like elves were 'corrupted' into orcs..? because.. these bugans look more like hobbits than the other goblins we find in Middle-Earth!

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Just the Underhillbillies a fuedin' with one another!

:P

I always wondered, if they were supposed to be corrupted Stoors, or if they were just goblins mimmicking them too.

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Originally Posted by Brethwyn_EU

Yeah.. that might be it. I think it's weird that they're goblin-kin because they live so close to the hobbits, and therefore would more naturally be hobbit brigands, breaking off from the others.

Maybe they are hobbits 'corrupting' into goblins? like elves were 'corrupted' into orcs..? because.. these bugans look more like hobbits than the other goblins we find in Middle-Earth!

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Goblins are orcs in the actual lore. Tolkien quite often interchanged the words in his writings. In the game, goblin is used to describe the smaller breed of orcs. So no, goblins aren't 'corrrupted' hobbits. If you want an example of what a corrupted hobbit-like creature is, take a look at Gollum ;)

As to the Bugans themselves, if I recall correctly, they are an isolated tribe of goblins who have taken on some of the characteristics of the local stoors such as the way they dress.

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Originally Posted by JRonnie

Goblins are orcs in the actual lore. Tolkien quite often interchanged the words in his writings. In the game, goblin is used to describe the smaller breed of orcs. So no, goblins aren't 'corrrupted' hobbits. If you want an example of what a corrupted hobbit-like creature is, take a look at Gollum ;)

As to the Bugans themselves, if I recall correctly, they are an isolated tribe of goblins who have taken on some of the characteristics of the local stoors such as the way they dress.

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So they are orcs with a sense of fashion.. hehe :) just gets weirder.. I know about Tolkien interchanging the terms, but I'm talking about the goblins in the game, not the orcs..

It's Turbine's way of making evil hobbits without actually making evil hobbits. We have evil elves (orcs), evil men, and evil dwarves. It was inevitable.

Personally, I want to know what the "pale folk" are.

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Originally Posted by ppinkham

Personally, I want to know what the "pale folk" are.

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gnomes from WoW!
( sorry :p )

Hover your mouse over them and ther are identified as Orc-kind. Your orc slayers will glow around them. Finding out what they are and why they look that way is answered by doing the epic quest line. I won't give it away, but if you'll find someone is behind their existance and the reason they are there.

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Originally Posted by ppinkham

It's Turbine's way of making evil hobbits without actually making evil hobbits. We have evil elves (orcs), evil men, and evil dwarves. It was inevitable.

Personally, I want to know what the "pale folk" are.

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My first thought about the Pale-folk was "skinny men with dwarfism" >.<

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Originally Posted by ppinkham

Personally, I want to know what the "pale folk" are.

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me going to the beach

In my mind, Bugans are a mutant hybrid originally derived from an unfortunate merger that just "happened one night" after an annoyingly persistent hobbit telemarketer and an early morning door-to-door bible-thumping dwarf had a bit too much drink at the Inn League and/or Ale Association.

One thing lead to another and next thing ya know?...................Bugans !
Eeeeek!

(Well, it makes sense, doesn't it? ;))

You're all wrong.

The ninja-Aussie on Turbine's staff, responsible for a number of Australian references and in-jokes in LotRO, simply substituted a "u" for the "o", rendering Bogans as Bugans.

Bogans are native to the outer suburbs of Melbourne. They traditionally wear an un-buttoned flanelette red- or blue-chequered shirt over a singlet, style their hair into mullets, smoke Winfield Blue (or Red), drink Victoria Bitter and get into brawls over whether or not holdens are better than Fords.

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Originally Posted by Herukhuti

You're all wrong.

The ninja-Aussie on Turbine's staff, responsible for a number of Australian references and in-jokes in LotRO, simply substituted a "u" for the "o", rendering Bogans as Bugans.

Bogans are native to the outer suburbs of Melbourne. They traditionally wear an un-buttoned flanelette red- or blue-chequered shirt over a singlet, style their hair into mullets, smoke Winfield Blue (or Red), drink Victoria Bitter and get into brawls over whether or not holdens are better than Fords.

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I wonder who that could be....

:)

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Originally Posted by Salahn

Bugan is Old Welsh for Hobgoblin, If I remeber the quests we found out they were goblin kin and not a forgoten race of Hobbits as 1st thought. Long time since I did the quests though, but pretty positive they are hobgoblins in game.

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This. They are an outcast goblin-folk.

I have to say, I was somewhat shocked by the mayor's attitude to these "other hobbits".

At first he was all friendly and enlisted our help to establish a connection between the villages... but as soon as he heard that they were in fact goblins, his immediate reaction was "Kill them!!" even without any provocation from their side...

The goblins were responsible for kidnapping a local hobbit from Maur Tulhau. They probably also killed (not too sure on this) a hobbit by crushing it to death with a boulder.

I'm not so sure if the kidnapping happened after the chief said "get friendly", and well, the theory about the hobbit-crushed-under-boulder thing is pure speculation.

Here's my theories:

• The mayor might've started to suspect the nearby Bugan village kidnapped the hobbit if he heard of a missing hobbit after he said that stuff, but, knowing hobbits, they might just blame the boars or the forest :p
• Hobbits have a natural enmity with goblins.
• The mayor is too reckless.
• The Mayor sent you as a spy and wouldn't tell you his true purposes.
• The mayor is paranoid.

Hobbits also have it in their blood to hate goblins, I'm sure ;)

Am I the only person who wants to meet some friendly Bugans?

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Originally Posted by Deaphret

me going to the beach

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Excellent!! 10 out of 10! /rep given

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Originally Posted by Berephon

This. They are an outcast goblin-folk.

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Thanks for answering, but cast out from where? And from who? I never seen goblins dress like hobbits before....

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Originally Posted by Reillan

Am I the only person who wants to meet some friendly Bugans?

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There is no such thing. in Middle Earth all Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, Uruks, etc. are evil, twisted beings by their very nature. Humans can choose to do good or evil, they can fall and they can be redeemed. But the orcish races are evil at their core and are not capable of "good" nor of redemption. At best, they might do something that seems "nice" or that serves the greater good out of fear or selfishness.

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Originally Posted by Brethwyn_EU

Thanks for answering, but cast out from where? And from who? I never seen goblins dress like hobbits before....

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Cast out from some realm of fairy-tale, unaccountably landing in the middle of an epic fantasy. If Tolkien had gone with Plan A and written a straight sequel to The Hobbit, stuff like that would have fit right in. Except then we wouldn't be here discussing it...

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Originally Posted by brasswire12

There is no such thing. in Middle Earth all Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, Uruks, etc. are evil, twisted beings by their very nature. Humans can choose to do good or evil, they can fall and they can be redeemed. But the orcish races are evil at their core and are not capable of "good" nor of redemption. At best, they might do something that seems "nice" or that serves the greater good out of fear or selfishness.

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This is correct, as well.

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Originally Posted by Brethwyn_EU

Thanks for answering, but cast out from where? And from who? I never seen goblins dress like hobbits before....

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Have you seen goblins that have been stripped of their gear and shoved out into the world? Also, remember that Tolkien's Orcs/goblins are much more human in appearance (according to Tolkien) than how any other medium has represented them (including our own.)

Ever consider where they might have gotten their clothing? ;)

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Have you seen goblins that have been stripped of their gear and shoved out into the world? Also, remember that Tolkien's Orcs/goblins are much more human in appearance (according to Tolkien) than how any other medium has represented them (including our own.)

Ever consider where they might have gotten their clothing? ;)

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Same place they got everything else they drop, of course. Looted from people they killed (and, presumably, ate). WHY they keep broken sword-hilts and shabby sword-sheaths and stuff is debatable; perhaps they hope they can come in handy some day? They also drop occasional Scholar materials, which they probably collect for use as toilet paper.

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Originally Posted by djheydt

They also drop occasional Scholar materials, which they probably collect for use as toilet paper.

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Thanks for that, I'm going to have to change profession now ;p

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Originally Posted by Salahn

Thanks for that, I'm going to have to change profession now ;p

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Don't use Bugan-dropped mats to make potions.

And here I had always thought that I was the one breaking their gear (swordsheaths, hauberks, etc.). Like mine gets broken when I'm defeated.

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Originally Posted by TheOneRinger

And here I had always thought that I was the one breaking their gear (swordsheaths, hauberks, etc.). Like mine gets broken when I'm defeated.

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Just be thankful they aren't as efficient at looting our corpses when we get defeated!! ;)

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Originally Posted by Herukhuti

You're all wrong.

The ninja-Aussie on Turbine's staff, responsible for a number of Australian references and in-jokes in LotRO, simply substituted a "u" for the "o", rendering Bogans as Bugans.

Bogans are native to the outer suburbs of Melbourne. They traditionally wear an un-buttoned flanelette red- or blue-chequered shirt over a singlet, style their hair into mullets, smoke Winfield Blue (or Red), drink Victoria Bitter and get into brawls over whether or not holdens are better than Fords.

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lol beat me!
In fact, I misread the thread title at first-thought 'what have bogans to do with the Lore ?!
Thanks for the laugh.
PS: I dare you start a thread about whether bugans are a corrupted form of sharpie......
<sorry folks -inappropriate regional humour >

I'm still going with my initial impression - zombie hobbits.

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Originally Posted by brasswire12

There is no such thing. in Middle Earth all Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, Uruks, etc. are evil, twisted beings by their very nature. Humans can choose to do good or evil, they can fall and they can be redeemed. But the orcish races are evil at their core and are not capable of "good" nor of redemption. At best, they might do something that seems "nice" or that serves the greater good out of fear or selfishness.

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The Bugans are, however, slightly twisted off the mainline of goblins... point of fact: they wear neat and clean clothes :)

So they may be more civilized than other goblins, and, as you say, are able then to feign "niceness" - or at least manage not to attack for the sake of knowing you can wipe them out with a single sching-sching.

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Have you seen goblins that have been stripped of their gear and shoved out into the world? Also, remember that Tolkien's Orcs/goblins are much more human in appearance (according to Tolkien) than how any other medium has represented them (including our own.)

Ever consider where they might have gotten their clothing? ;)

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Fair enough. But they must at least be a more intelligent breed of Goblins, wanting to dress like others. And they even look more like Hobbits than the other Goblins in the game, so these are a peculiar race indeed :P

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Originally Posted by Berephon

This is correct, as well.

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Not exactly...in fact in his letters Tolkien specifically said he avoided using the term "irredeemable" in reference to the Orcs:

'On the subject of orc redeemability Tolkien wrote in one of his letters "I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making — necessary to their actual existence — even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good. That God would 'tolerate' that, seems no worse theology than the toleration of the calculated dehumanizing of Men by tyrants that goes on today." In Morgoth's Ring, Tolkien suggests that Orcs, while not irredeemable, may not be redeemable by Elves or Men.'

I'm guessing the same applies to Bugans and Hobbits, though the cheery little buggers sure tried :)

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Originally Posted by Brethwyn_EU

Fair enough. But they must at least be a more intelligent breed of Goblins, wanting to dress like others. And they even look more like Hobbits than the other Goblins in the game, so these are a peculiar race indeed :P

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I think you're underestimating Goblin intelligence in general...they're crude and uncivilized, but they're also fiendishly clever and ingenious. While they may, by and large, prefer more direct methods and open hostility, I dont think subterfuge or deception - like trying to 'seem' like Hobbits - is that exceptional a trait among Goblin-kind, at least when outright violence and mayhem is not a possibility (ie, you've been cast out from your tribe and lose your strength of numbers).

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Have you seen goblins that have been stripped of their gear and shoved out into the world? Also, remember that Tolkien's Orcs/goblins are much more human in appearance (according to Tolkien) than how any other medium has represented them (including our own.)

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This is the bit that always gets me thinking. That fan-written piece released in Europe, for example, where Saruman and his men were simply men of science, reason and logic and the Elves, Gandalf and Co were men of faith, magic and the old ways. The story was written from the perspective of the orcs, who were not warped or hideous. They were just men persecuted for their different belief system.

History gets written by the winners, etc ;)

Then there's the articles on whether Tolkien's references to strong, dark-skinned humanoids with gutteral languages are a whole lot more 'allegory' than Tolkien ever admitted. Not saying I agree or disagree, but they make for interesting reading nonetheless. Besides I couldn't enjoy the game anymore if it was ever shown that 'orcs' was basically a catch-all term for non-white races.

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Originally Posted by Lilka

Besides I couldn't enjoy the game anymore if it was ever shown that 'orcs' was basically a catch-all term for non-white races.

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Well, the Haradrim have 'dark faces' (as described by Gollum) and Tolkien handles them sympathetically: like the one whose body Sam sees in Ithilien, where Sam is described as wondering whether that Man had wanted to be there or not, whether he might have wanted to stay at home in peace and instead been forced to go to war. That humanises the enemy, the Men at least; we're given to understand they're not all bad. The Orcs are another story, the more we see of them the more repellent they become.

Orcs were an image of debased humanity in general: they're us, at our worst. Tolkien said that "we were all Orcs in the Great War", thus tarring himself with that same brush. They're victims, of course, but they've been so brutalised that they have no shred of conscience or remorse and will do evil not just willingly but gladly. 'Orcs' appear in any conflict, it's just that the real-world ones look human on the outside.

As I recall, goblins are described as clever, liking clever strategems and mechanisms and being quite brave when the odds are in their favor. We see them at their worst in the game, out in the world away from their underground strongholds. I have always considered it a nice touch on Turbine's part that some of the best random recipie drops I have gotten have come from Goblins, an indication that there is more to them than "Kill, kill, kill. . . Oh no, Diiiee."

I wonder if they have a Bilbo Bugans. ;)

I'm sure i read somewhere in game to the effect that they were isolated and had become more like men, hence the snappy dressing.

To me they look like the cast of Bugsy Malone, all they need are some cigars, cut throat razors and "chicago typewriters" to complete the look.

Now the question is, what are they isolated from ?

The main Orc and Goblin tribes of Mordor/Isengard/Misty mountains? Yes.

The Dark Lord/Saruman's influence? possibly.

It begs the question what becomes of Orcs and Goblins after the fall of Sauron. Do they go the way of Bugans, finally becoming indistinguishable from and infiltrating with normal brigands and human criminality?

Or go the way of all "the other speaking peoples of middle earth" in "the fourth age" and "decline"?